I'm for Obama and Biden. So is my wife. As is my daughter. Along with just about everybody else I know.
So it's difficult for me to understand how the other side thinks. Being a warm and fuzzy progressive, I thought I'd reach out in this post and try to touch some McCain – Palin supporters.
What leads you to believe that the Republican ticket is best for the United States? Which policies favored by McCain, and not by Obama, would get this country back on track?
Please, be reality-based. Your opinions need to be backed up by facts.
For example, McCain keeps saying that Obama wants to raise taxes on most Americans. That isn't true. His tax plan would lower taxes on lower and middle income people more than McCain's plan would. The lies being spread about Obama's tax policies are just that: lies.
I can understand why someone would simply like McCain more than Obama. "Like" is a subjective preference. I'd never try to talk someone out of liking something, so long as it didn't hurt other people.
But here's how I see this election: this country is at a crossroads. Sure, that's said every four years at presidential election time. But it seems more true this time around.
Huge investment firms are going under. Today the stock market dropped more than 500 points. Yet McCain says the economy is fundamentally sound. I don't see how someone with this attitude will be able to fix our economic problems.
Help me out, McCain supporters. Tell me how more tax cuts for the wealthy and continuing massive budget deficits are going to turn things around.
Recently Jon Stewart said on his The Daily Show something like, "So the only people who can fix the problems caused by eight years of a Republican president, and six out of eight years of Republicans controlling Congress, are…Republicans?"
Again, I don't get it. Where's the evidence that McCain and Palin, who are strong supporters of almost every George Bush policy, are going to be independent mavericks?
There's a lot I don't like about McCain and Palin. McCain is running a dishonorable, sleazy campaign. He got nailed in an Obama ad today for surrendering his honor in order to try to win the presidency.
Palin keeps repeating her Bridge to Nowhere lie, even after the truth has come out that she favored the bridge and continues to seek hundreds of millions of dollars in earmarks for Alaska. And she's for killing wolves from airplanes, a despicable act that my animal-loving soul abhors.
So it'd be tough for me to change my mind and vote for McCain and Palin. I just don't see any good reasons to do so. And neither do most of the people that I talk to.
But who knows? Maybe someone will leave a comment to this post that offers up a cogent, fact-based, persuasive reason why they should lead this country.
Brother Brian said:
>>>So it's difficult for me to understand how the other side thinks. Being a warm and fuzzy progressive.....<<<
Brian, I am WAY BEHIND in thanking you for without question, THE BEST blog post I have ever read. It was the one about imposing "overlays" of expectation on the new day.
There you were working through a day, and you wondered why you were in such a bad mood. Then you realized it was because you had a preconcieved overlay in your mind that reality simply did not equal for that day.
Thank you for that post.
Since then, I have started many, many days out with that admonition for myself; NO OVERLAYS!! Today will be todays unmasking!
Brian, I hope you know how very valuable that advice is! I thank you again!
Now, are you a warm and fuzzy progressive?
Or is that a horrible and negitive overlay that at some point in your VERY PRODUCTIVE life you imposed on your self?
So Barry is not going to raise tax on any one other than those that choose to create jobs, huh? Do you see a problem there?
And as one who has read with interest your self defense activities I always wonder how you can fall into a cowering, surendering position as Barry has (and now admits that he was wrong) put forward regarding the war?
Finally, here is another answer to your very thoughtful question:
Look at all of the leaders of the countries in our world.
Iran, China, N Korea, Venuzuela, Russia, etc....
Countries are like business's; they are in compitition for EVERYTHING.
How do you you see the two candidates stacking up IN THE REAL WORLD to slug it out for YOUR COUNTRY?
Nicey, nicey, is not the theme of today, I'm sure you've noticed!
Brian, why have you spent so much time learning self defence for your family and at the same time want to vote in a puss that will lay down on his back in the face of adversity?
Respectfully; before you respond, please take however much time to review your past and REMOVE ALL OVERLAYS.
My opinion: You are not a warm and fuzzy progressive. That is a horrible and very destructive, negitive overlay that you have been a slave to for way too long.
You are way smarter than that!
Rather, you are a strong, powerfull, and thought full community leader.
Thanks for all that you do!
Posted by: Harry Vanderpool | September 15, 2008 at 10:59 PM
It could be said that we voters are faced with choosing the least bad candidate. I choose McCain-Palin over Obama-Biden for the following reasons, among others:
McCain is closer to my ideological position – I believe that life begins at conception, therefore abortion is wrong. My conviction that abortion is wrong is the perfectly logical of my premise. This is important because the president has the power to influence bills, sign or veto bills into law, and appoint federal judges; therefore I logically want someone with a similar ideological belief system to be making those decisions.
McCain is stronger in the area of foreign affairs – In contrast with the “warm and fuzzy” world that we would all like to inhabit, there are truly evil regimes and people that want to kill us. Islamic terrorists don’t hate us just because of alleged grievances; they hate us because we are non-Islamic. Anyone who has studied the Koran or Islamic history knows that Islam has a mandate from Allah/Muhammad to conquer and subject non-believers. Western civilization must resist them with strength, not with concessions that only encourage their selfish behavior. I trust McCain more than Obama in this area because of McCain’s military experience, age, and his stronger statements against military aggression by our enemies. Obama, on the other hand, prefers to rely on the UN, which I regard as completely ineffectual due to the inclusion of countries that are our stated enemies.
McCain plans to lower corporate taxes – In contrast with the speeches I hear from Obama, Clinton, and others (Republicans included), “corporations” are not some evil empire. They are groups of investors working together for their common interests. Their success or failure has great impact on the prosperity of our country because of the salaries they pay and the investment returns they produce. The differences are documented at: http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/23496.html. Taxes are a hindrance to growth and wealth; the public sector is an anchor on the private sector, and any lessening of the weight of that anchor will help all of us.
The media strongly prefers Obama – An unbiased observer can look at articles in the mainstream media about the candidates and conclude that they clearly want Obama to be elected. I for one will not follow their Plan For My Life like an unquestioning lemming.
Don’t some of these questions about Obama concern you?
Experience – Obama has no experience on which to judge his capabilities.
Associations – Obama has a long history of close associations with the likes of Tony Rezko, Jeremiah Wright, and Bill Ayers. You can tell a lot about him by the company he keeps, and these associates tell me enough to discourage me from voting for him.
Patriotism – A US president should not go to a foreign country and say anything to denigrate our country. Obama did this when he downplayed our awesome national achievements in Berlin.
Presumption - Obama's arrogance in pretending to be president before even winning the Democratic nomination is unappealing to me. He did this especially on his European trip.
Posted by: Erik | September 16, 2008 at 08:38 PM
I do applaud you both for such well though out arguments, but in Ireland we see what is really going on.
I am an American who served in the 82nd Airborne Division albeit during the Clinton Era, so I do not command as much respect as my brothers who are right now fighting a war that reeks of Vietnam. I feel at ease to tell you that on this side of the world we are seriously hoping that Mr. Obama wins the election, but we also see the absolutely vial and disgusting campaign that Mr. McCain are waging.
I think that as Americans we need to remember that the constitution starts out
"We the People", then ask ourselves is it "We the People" that are going to benefit when big business and oil stay in Washington?
I know that Mr. Obama is not perfect, and sometimes what he says sounds like a load of rhetoric, but at least he stands for something genuinely good. Do I believe that he will change the face of politics in my auld sod? Possibly. What i do know though is that Mr. McCain whom I greatly respect, is pulling plays from a dirty book, and has lost sight of what America really needs, a leader for Hope and someone who might actually be looking out for the little guy.
So when November comes and you are looking at that ballot remember the thing that I love most about my country. That no matter what or who you are, you too have the chance to make a difference not just for you, but for America and the world
Posted by: Conor McAlonan | September 17, 2008 at 10:53 AM
You've written a hell of a conversation starter!
I hope I can engage on several details in the coming days, for example on the financial world stuff.
However, with the couple of minutes I have right now, I wanted to call to your attention to an article that addresses some of your core concerns. The piece was written by a Democrat to advise fellow partisans on how why Republicans vote the way they do, or why some people vote Republican who otherwise might not.
I often tire of political conversations because they end up in talking at cross purposes. In this case, the liberal author touches on some of the philosophical underpinning of the political differences, albeit by dwelling more on the emotional drivers of voters. I think the article will interest you and provide a great deal of grist for the conversational mill here:
I have my caveats with many of the author's points, but in general I find it a very insightful piece, and one that could be the basis of a breakthrough for Democrats, were they to heed its lessons.
Posted by: Idler | September 17, 2008 at 02:05 PM
It was interesting that we heard on radio this week a writer discussing how Republicans vote on emotional grounds and have since Reagan. It's not logic that works but emotions like fear, pride in country, anger against someone threatening their values, spiritual ecstasy, etc. So logical approaches, with discussions of issues, won't work with people who are motivated by an emotional rush. Not saying it's true btw, but just what he said and it did make me wonder. It's hard for me to grasp it as for me it's all about the issues and logically who can best carry out the agenda I believe is the right one (none of them ever totally agree with me, of course *s*)
Posted by: Rain | September 17, 2008 at 04:25 PM
I suspect you heard the same writer (Jonathan Haidt) of the piece I referenced. I haven't heard him speak, but I read his article as saying something different than what you're saying.
The essay is currently making the rounds, and so, perhaps, is the author. Another friend of mine read the article and (mis)characterized it similar to the way you have.
The claim that Republicans/conservatives are motivated by emotion rather than reason is not a new one. Haidt's article says something more, something better and something closer to the truth.
I would hint towards what he's getting at by saying that more traditional moral take into account realities of human nature and better understand various ways humans must interrelate in order to preserve civilization. This doesn't mean that traditional views are right in every particular. Far from it. However, it does mean that certain individualist and rationalist outlooks oversimplify and overlook some of the essentials of social life.
Posted by: Idler | September 17, 2008 at 06:44 PM
Using your link, I did read his article but don't think it was the same concept in the person I heard but I didn't catch that person's name; so can't say for sure. I think anyone can be swayed by emotions and can't say it's always wrong either. Emotions are strong and deep chords. The problem is to be sure we aren't being manipulated into feeling them
Posted by: Rain | September 17, 2008 at 07:11 PM
"We're Screwed '08" sums up my views on this subject.
If it could be possible to vote against a candidate instead of for one, I would vote against Obama. He is worse than McCain on the main issue I care about, which is immigration. Also, get ready for endless debates about race if Obama (the supposed post-racial candidate and former professional race agitator) is elected.
Some of you might find this interesting, by the way:
Postcard from Zinnlandia
Posted by: Hal K | September 18, 2008 at 11:22 AM
Conor McAlonan wrote:
"we also see the absolutely vial and disgusting campaign that Mr. McCain are waging.
...How about the vile and disgusting campaign waged against Palin? It goes both ways.
"We the People" that are going to benefit when big business and oil stay in Washington?"
...Of course they're going to stay in Wahington regardless of who's president. Big business and oil are a major part of the fabric of America. Without them we'd still be living in the little house on the prairie. Yes, they need oversight and investigation when wrongs are suspected, and the corrupt lobbyist system needs to be fixed. Both sides claim to want to do that. With McCain it is hard to believe that he will or can. With Obama it is hard to believe that he can or will.
"Mr. Obama is not perfect, and sometimes what he says sounds like a load of rhetoric, but at least he stands for something genuinely good."
...As if McCain's rhetoric stands for something genuinely bad. His rhetoric is born from the bowels of hell, right? Pure evil from the get-go. C'mon.
"Mr. McCain whom I greatly respect, is pulling plays from a dirty book,"
...and Obama's campaign doesn't? Again,look at all the unfounded lies perpetrated about Palin by them, and they think their crap doesn't stink.
You see, both sides are so emotionally caught up in this thing they can't see straight. Most people made up their minds a long time ago and everything is filtered through their conditioning and prejudice.
There are a few fence-sitters who are actually thinking about this election from a more objective stance. They are the ones who will ultimately decide it.
Posted by: condor | September 18, 2008 at 12:34 PM
What are the unfounded lies about Palin, Condor?
And btw I think the speaker I heard might've been Westen. I am still not sure but there was no religious aspect to the speaker we heard Sunday.
Posted by: Rain | September 18, 2008 at 01:23 PM
Rain, try this:
If that's not good enough, you can find scores of blogs and websites from both sides playing politics as usual. It's worse now than in the past because of how the internet can get rumors and distortions running so fast, and how corrupt the various media outlets have become with impunity. It seems professional standards for fair reporting are the exception rather than the rule. We all tend to be sucked into believing what we want to believe anyway due to our preconditioned prejudices and ideologies.
Posted by: condor | September 18, 2008 at 03:29 PM
I agree we all have opinions, condor, that influence how we see things. Now here is an article for you to read: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/13/AR2008091302596.html?nav=hcmodule It's not a blog and watch out for those (right or left as I hate to even use them as authorities given they have no responsibility to the truth but only to suiting their reader's prejudices). There is another article on various issues under her watch in the New York Times from more of the governor end.
Most of this is not coming out of the Obama camp. It's coming out of newsmen and people in Alaska who are putting out their experiences with her. I had never heard about the cutting of funds for special education programs; so can't speak about that; but the book banning has been clearly out there and that blogger is behind the times. There is a list, I have put it in my own blog but it's not claimed it's from Palin. It is a list of books that have been banned or attempted to be (and by the right and the left as is clear from the names on the list).
Palin requested from the librarian how she would ban books three times. Why would you ask that question if you weren't interested in doing it? The librarian resisted. Palin did try to get that daddy has a roommate book banned when she was on the council. As I understand the librarian and police chief, she fired them both. She also was threatened with recall over it.
But to say that Obama has put all this out is simply not true unless it's in his speeches or ads. McCain has clearly used such material in his ads and speeches when it hits on Obama but these issues weren't things that Obama did use. And he said stay off her family issues. I don't blame McCain for every racist thing that comes out of the far right. Some is just people who go off the deep end and don't much care if they are telling the truth or not.
Yes, Obama has had his own exaggerations but not many people would say they come to the level of what McCain has put out. McCain has even his own side saying he's been lying. Sometimes I wonder if McCain has even got the ability to figure out what he's saying as he will switch it day to day. Very weird.
One more thing. Palin did want to charge for rape kids for the victims of rape (which run $500-1000). Alaska has a LOT of rapes; so this was a direct hit on women for the most part. I have yet to see where she denies it.
Palin should be thoroughly vetted by the American people and the media because McCain didn't do it and we need to know who this woman is as she is more likely to end up president than most veeps. Is she remotely ready for that job? Does the fact that she can see Russia from some part of Alaska reassure you that she's got a clue what to do in the current difficult situation with Russia? That's the question all voters should be asking themselves. Naturally we won't agree on the answer.
Posted by: Rain | September 18, 2008 at 05:00 PM
er rape kits *s* not kids lol
Posted by: Rain | September 18, 2008 at 05:02 PM
Rain said: "Is she remotely ready for that job? Does the fact that she can see Russia from some part of Alaska reassure you that she's got a clue what to do in the current difficult situation with Russia? That's the question all voters should be asking themselves. Naturally we won't agree on the answer."
...Actually, I agree 100%. I am not re-assured that she has a clue. That answer she gave about seeing Russia from Alaska is one of the lamest remarks I've heard from either camp. But, I'll cut her a little slack for nerves since it was her first pressure interview on a big stage. If she doesn't come on stronger in the debates and future interviews, her advantage for the McCain campaign will evaporate. However, I have seen nothing from Obama in the two years he has been running for president that gives me confidence he can go toe to toe with the tough bad guys out there either.
Posted by: condor | September 18, 2008 at 05:54 PM
well, as we have said, sometimes good people see things far differently through our own filters. I see Obama as far tougher than you do. I have my own blog scheduled from some time in October on the subject of predator or prey... And give my take on it then :)
Posted by: Rain | September 18, 2008 at 06:30 PM
To Hal K
I do agree that both sides are masters of the old politricks, and no I do not think McCain's rhetoric is from "the bowels of hell" you tried to portray it in that light and it is far from what I wanted to convey.
As far as oil and big business is concerned, yes I do now they are part of America and and most of the western world is as well. However, it does not mean that all the "little people" should be swallowed by a capitalist system in which we live in today. Before you get your back up though, I will also agree that both parties and most governments gain the most from this economy. In this sense, Obama and McCain are both what I would class as "Rich" and it almost becomes a wash because both men would seemingly not be hurting for money.
Now Sarah Palin. I have to say that there is a lot of horrible things being said about her, and in my infinite wisdom I cannot think that Mr. Obama and the DNC have nothing to do with it. However, as someone stated above, most of these accusations are being brought on by her fellow politicians in Alaska. We must also look closely at her record as Governor there was an article in the Washington Post today laying out some fairly dodgy practices I must say. you can read it here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/18/AR2008091803492.html
For both sides though, we must remember that it is Mr. McCain running for President not Mrs. Palin.
Now for both parties and their nominees. Wake the Hell Up! This is not a pissing match, and for damn sure it is'nt about your fragile egos and who endorses you. Lets all leave celebrities to starring in movies and selling face cream. The decision that all of us have to make is who is going to be the Leader of our great, but at the moment damaged country. I watch this race from across a big pond, but still see through all the muck that what we need is a person who can change something, no matter how small. Those of us who are wise enough to remember "Read my Lips, No New Taxes" in 1988, have to try and put things in perspective. Ill end this with one of my favourite Stones Lines
"You cant always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, You get what you need"
And right now what we need is a little bit of peace, love and understanding. What is So funny 'bout that?
All the Best
Posted by: Conor McAlonan | September 19, 2008 at 11:30 AM