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April 26, 2003


I'm sure you realize this, in light of your 1/9/04 post: "Last point: enjoy today to the fullest, for tomorrow could be much colder, or much hotter," but this particular entry is a pretty distressing example of (real or pretended) ignorance about what "global warming" really entails. Even if, as I suspect, it is proferred only in jest, it only fuels proponents of the theory that "global warming doesn't really exist."

Unseasonably cold temperatures are as indicative of the global warming process as unseasonably cold ones. I'm sorry to be so serious about all this, but I have children who are going to live in the planet we leave them, so to me, it is pretty f-ing serious.

While I support clean cars and non polluting power generation I think the jury is still out on global warming. All of the temperature estimates (and they are estimates) were obtained by scientists trying to prove that global warming exists. I don't believe that you can accurately determine what the temperature was 100 years ago. Anyone that says it can be done has an agenda. I think it is even MORE preposterous that MAN is causing it,if it is indeed happening.
Even if it is true ,any treaty that gives China and India a free pass isn't worth the paper it is written on. Those countries are bigger polluters than we are.
The United States is the greatest nation in the history of the world. Too many people in the world don't like this. This global warming lie is just another conspiracy to try and bring us down or extort some cash from us. And this is not tongue and cheek. I am F ing serious as well....Joe

"Then go buy a hybrid car, if you don't have one already." (?!?)
Well, not everyone is some hippy couple with a just a dog or a cat. Try sticking two aduts, four kids, soccer and softball gear, coolers and everything else in a little hybrid. Try going on a Holliday trip to Granmas with six people, lugage, gifts and food stuffed in some little piece of crap hybid. Try pulling a boat or a camper with your hybrid. Go tell someone with children to trust a little toy car like that to protect them in a wreck. Grow up and live in the real world.

Johnny Freedom, take a look at the Toyota Highlander Hybrid SUV. It will do everything you want: 7 passenger seating, tows 3,500 pounds, stability control and AWD--one of the safest cars around.

You can have safety and convenience plus high gas mileage and low emissions also. Toyota is very much in the real world. Hybrid auto sales are soaring while big SUV sales are tanking.

Seen the discounts on Expeditions and Suburbans lately? They're practically giving them away, because nobody wants those dinosaurs.

please read this to the end. even if it bothers you, i read all the other posts to the end and took it into account. i only see it reasonable to give 2 sides to every story....

i would like to give a different point of view on this situation. As much as poeple would like to sit back with a cup of starbucks coffee and think to themselves, "God will take care of all of it, we humans are his gift to this world", it just can't happen.
Global warming isn't about the earth getting hotter, its the cause of the ozone layer disintegrating. This comes from car polution, machine polution, and many other kinds. It is effecting the chemistry of the earth. China and India may have a huge population but if you go to China and India you will see that it is more rare to have a car than it is not to have one. In the US most families have 2 to 3 cars. Yes, China is known for not being the cleanest, but in America we have more regulations than they do for keeping a place clean, so yes, Go America for that.
America has its good qualities, but what it lacks is the awarness of the world around us. I don't want to go all hippy, peace and love on anyone but one can't deny that there are a lot of distractions such as electronics, movie stars all sorts of things.
On the topic of Hybrid cars. they are small because the demand isn't as big as regualar cars. Gas companies try to hide the hybrid car because it doesnt bring in money as regualar cars do. if they became a demand, more types and models could be created to fit all sizes of families.
The reason i am writing this is because i am concerned about the future. We care so much about the existance of human life, but its the earth that brings and gives us life so why can't we at least respect it by treating it right?
I worry about my children and their children and childrens chilrend (etc). An example i would like to give relates to everyone. If i went through life compeletly denying God, "there is no God" bla bla bla, then i die and BAMB. there is a God and hes pissed. He created me and gave me life, but i dismissed him. It would.. suck, pretty much. A religion prepares us for the afterlife, so why don't we prepare future generations from any possiblity as long as we can?

"The United States is the greatest nation in the history of the world"? Is that even true? Is it relevant? "China and India are bigger polluters than we are?" Again, is it true? Is it relevant? This person has nothing factual to say, yet he/she does not resist the temptation to weigh-in on topics he/she does not understand. The notion that man is not responsible for global climate change is ridiculous. The notion that this is some master plan to extort money from the United States is also ridiculous.

Grow up and live in the real world? Cannot drive a hybrid car because you have too many children and soccer games? Why is everyone with a different opinion bad? (hippies with dogs and cats)? Does anyone else think that this point of view has real merit? If you cannot behave responsibly I suggest you stop having children who will also behave irresponsibly as adults. Besides, many modern hybrid cars are adequate to tote your little gems around to soccer fields. You need to grow up, get in the real world, learn the issues/facts/truth and behave responsibly.

Global warming is real. America is not doing what it should to participate in a world-wide effort to stem GW. The consequences of GW will be severe and far-reaching. If you really care about your soccer kids, you'll pay more attention to the facts and less attention to the rhetoric of G.W. Bush on the same topic. Interestingly, both GW and GWB are harmful to your children!

Global warming is the new opium for the people.

Explain the ice age.

Fact is the earrth has been warming naturally for the past few millenia.

explain dinosaurs in norhtern climates. dont believe the hype!

First you must ask global warming believers if climate change is something new to the last 30 years. when they say yes you know they are too far gone for help. If they say no, than they just proved your point. The earth may be warming it may be cooling it is a cycle, it is documented that at one time vikings farmed on greenland and that at one time chicago was under 5000 feet of ice, ever wonder how the great lakes came to be? and that all those fjords in scandanavia were caused buy expanding and retreating glaciers. this is so silly and rediculous it defies imagination. i think chirac of France said it best, "Kyoto is the first step to world governance." Boom case closed.

Hello, Johnny Freedom here again. Well Jeff, I must have hit a cord. I also thought the minute you were typing GW into your hate America, hate capitalism rant, that you really meant George W. As it turned out I was right. Even though George Bush has put more of our national budget toward alternative fuel research than your idol Bill Clinton ever did. So drive your little electric car to one of your anti-everything rallies and wave your signs of ignorance. I'll be sending some "real world" facts about global warming that will debunk your rhetoric soon (Nic is on the right track). I don't have enough time right now. I need to get to my evil capitalist job. Oh, and Jeff, If America isn't the greatest nation, can you tell me which one is, and why? I'd like to know.

Brian, good point about the Toyota Highlander. Problem is, 3,500 lbs towing capacity isn't enough for a boat or a camper of much size. But when the fuel efficient, alternative energy vehicles catch up to my needs, I'd be happy to look at one if the cost is realistic. As it should be, these energy changes will be market driven, and not mandated by socialist/Marxist bureaucrats, unless Jeff has his way.

Wait, look, it's March 20th and I'm watching a late snow storm head toward my region on radar. Damn you George Bush, it's all your fault! :)

It's a climate change, not global warming.

While global warming may not be 'imminent' I still think it would do us good, for the health of the people of earth alone, to do away with as much pollution as possible.

There is a reason they tell the elderly and those with breathing problems to 'stay inside' on certain days of the year. It is because of massive pollution. And there is no questioning it. You can see it hovering over almost all of the cities of this nation.

Also, to the person who needs an "SUV" to cart their kids around, you are an idiot sir. That is what Mini-Vans are for. SUV's are for offroading. They have a much smaller cab than a mini-van and tip over if you put too much in the back. I am so sick of these upper middle class parents who claim an SUV is needed for shipping their kids off to soccer. As an FYI, those of us who ACTUALLY offroad laugh at you on a regular basis.

I hate people and I hope we all die from global warming! People suck so why should I care? You will get hell and enjoy it!!!

Now i am going to make this complex issue as simple as i can for the r-tards ok...

Becasue simplicity will never work on a planetary scale and saying ice will melt will alter the sea level is stupid...

Brownian motion...
Vapour pressure of water verses air
Sublimation of ice
Climate differentials between day and night
Solution of oceanic water verses ice.

ok now here is a few facts.

Salt water is more dense than distilled/ freash water. because salt pulls the monocules together. so freash water contracts with salt content how cool is that.

Any water taken from the ocean leaves behind an excess of salt. becasue salt does not evaporate.

ok thats simple still following children

So any water on land that rain has prduced is freash water...

like ice... or rain... etc.

if i have 1000 tonnes of water n land when it mixes with oceanic water it will weigh more as it is in solutin and it will be less volumetric as the moncules are pulled tighter together making it more dense.

The most important part is the volumetric bit.

as in the sea level only rises temporarily.

ok next those ice caps... freash water again... they will melt and become more dense than they were so they will displace less than before...

not getting it... ice displaces its own weight of water... and when it does displace it is soluble and becomes more dense as it gains salt content. that is before it evaporates that is...

So ice caps melting at sea not a problem...

ice can also evaporate as ice to steam... it is called sublimation kiddies. so that just by passed a big chunk. and it rains 80 precent of the time in land where the ground level is higher. which is why why it rains its nuts off on the coast. where sea level meets ground level. but remember any rain will return to the ocean and loose its original volume as it is has disolved with the salt.

brownian movement.. any pollution created will not move into one spot but evenly distrobute itself in the atmosphere and fast. this is why those black clouds soon vanish. What about fog... well what about it thats a totally different condition thats when the warmer climate meeting cold land making the cloud level fall... what about smog... same thing except the pollution is caught in the fog and locked up until the temperature and air pressure changes, but thats not global thats localised putting that on a global scale is imbacielic at best... keep up people.

we arnt done yet

humid air holds more water volumetricly. it has to thats how it works the more heat the more humidity.

the wind decides where the water goes and as water is the main benifactor on earth as 70 percent of the earth is water
326,000,000,000,000,000,000 gallons of it
and nearly alll of the oceanic water is less dense than normal water.

as the ice melts the freash wter given of has a different vapour pressure to salt water and because it is less dense it floats on top...

how about that

So that gets evaporated first becasue IR doesnt penatrate water very far...

so anything lost on the ice caps evaporates first... oh man can ya see where this is going...

Ice on the land... thats the key to this scam... so if it melts it will go int the water only to evaporate first and if it doesnt it will loose a percentage of its volume

ok to summerize kids and kiddies

The ocean its pretty big

Ice caps that float in water only make the The water level fall not rise.

(i told ya ice displaces its own weight and as it becomes soluble it loses its volume.)

then the ice on the land will go to the ocean which will evapourate first as it is less dense and therefore floats an top and if it doesnt it will decrease in volume.
akeing the net gain verses solutin loss and evaporation loss abut 0% difference

If the earth is heating up there will be more humidity so the air holds more water. and that ater is the freash water mentioned earlier as it is cyclical.

the net gain is little. and distrobuted differently

It will rain less and when it does rain it will chuck buckets full. but it wont rain as mcuh like the tropics

Let me tell you people somthing the biggest danger of climate change is not water... do not bleive that shit.. if indeed the temperature is increaseing you may want to look out for tropical deseases because yes folks they will be able to live here and no not driving your car will not change a thing to ur planet but it will stop yur government getting your cash for feul taxes...

there are only two things that decide our cllimate

Volcanic ash blocking the sun or a solar flare. and yeah like we can do jack shit about that
I can hear it now
...hang on love ill go put a cork in my volcano make us a coffee when i get back and errm yeah blow out that flare whilst ya at it

Well i am back folks but this time its the O-zone layer...

What is the O-zone

The ozonosphere layer

is a layer of O3 which reacts with UV to break apart and refor back to O3 this inturn protects us against UV AND INFRARED

it exsists mainly in our stratosphere

whoo stratoshpere yeah go stratosphere!!!

It can react with man made gasses which deplete it... What you mean delplete!!! we are really fucked now!!!

oh wait hang on there whoa there nelly.

species on earth exist to adapt. its what we do. its how we live.. so what will animals and plants do if mre UV gets through

Well so far cancer in humans is on the rise especially skin cancer but thats rising with the carcenogens in fag smoke s we cant exactly say its UV alone. as the victims could be predisposed because of thier habits or exposure to one of the 69 carcenagenic materials found in fag smoke.

ok so the human cancer figures are invalidated due to extrainious variables... pfft its not like you see animals with skin cancer... oh wait no ya dont... its never been mesured... and probably doesnt exist

ok k s what about plants they are going to hate it...

wait dont they use UV to repire...

hang on i am seeing a fundimental flaw...

more O2 means more O3

But we are cutting down trees... well not really. considering most of the oxygen on earth funniyl enough comes from algae trees are quite irrelevant.


algae produce 80 percent of our oxygen and as a catalysitc conversion of light into xygen they will soon prevent that ozone depletion as the carbon dioxide emissions increase so do they (supplie and demand)

so stop huggin trees ya idiots they dnt even accunt for human consumtion lol

ya keep throwing hose pints and ill keep batting them out of the park

all my comments can be bacvked up by scientific fact go n try me youll lve me or yur money back....


last notes:

We need to go into our cars now!!!

we need to cut down more trees noww!!!!

According to what i have mentioned abuove..

it wont be long before we starve our crops of carbon dioxide... with all that algae and the trees and no carbon dioxide output crops will perish and we will starve rofl...

I am being serious according to the statisics we are alll going to die of low carbon emmissions

how do you like them apples... oh wait we have none we are out of carbon dioxide...

(now ya see why the global warmiing scenario is daft the planetary scale has supplie and demand to pander to ur needs)and you pander t its this is the way of the wrld now stp reading this and take the jag for a spin

"Global Warming" is an unproven theory, plain and simple. In hypothesis testing, all alternate possibilities must be disproven in order for that hypothosis to be considered true.

There is significant evidence counter to the "Global Warming" theory that is largly ignored because people are more interested in proving the theory than in objectively testing the theory.

It is "science" where the conclusion has already been pre-determined, and the evidence is systematically selected in order to justify the conclusion. For nearly every component of the theory, there is readily available evidence that could be referenced to raise reasonable questions to that evidence, but is usually ignored.

The burdon of proof has not been met by any reasonable scientific standard, and the fact that the theory is being presented as fact is at best irresponsible. I don't believe the idea that people are purposely lying in order to advance their agenda. I believe that the Global Warming advocates truly believe what they are saying, but in the absence of anything even close to real evidence, this blind belief is exactly that.

I think many people don't want to hear counter arguments simply because they are afraid of being wrong, or being labeled "anti-environment." You would think people would be happy that as far as we know, disaster is not eminent.

Mark, you are very wrong. Global warming is real and getting more real by the minute. There's a scientific consensus about this. It's a fact. See:

And many other web sites. The National Academy of Sciences has issued a report that concludes global warming is happening and humans are contributing to it. See:

I think the issue should be, "Excessive Global Warming."

The Earth needs a "Normal" amount of global warming to keep us and other living things warm. Without this normal amount we would all freeze. This normal amount falls within a range.

When global warming is too great, an excess, then, we should start our discussion there.
The excess is what we all should be concerned with.

What causes the "Excess" in global warming? What can we do to help reduce it? Is the problem of over population a factor? Is our daily excesses causing too much pollution?

How much of this excessive global warming can we actually change in a positive way?

Food for thought.

Oh Boy. You really think that we (I'm sure you mean conservative Republicans) Think that you HIPPY wing nuts sit down in a Cavern and rub your crystals all over your bodies and Dance naked? Well I know for a fact that you fly on brooms and dance in the moonlight i mean, everyone knows that... anyway outside of your awful attempts at Humor as usual You are misinformed. Droughts and famines have happened throughout human history so That's one debunk, the next Debunk is that pollution is cased from Cars bzzzz't! WRONG! Cows release more "greenhouse Gasses than Cars but Hey we cant kill all the cows that would be murder!!!! As far as Buying a hybrid first THEY ARE TOO EXPENSIVE!! where do you come off telling us to buy something anyway(stop being so damn pretentious)?
Get your facts straight about the president and his enviro policies too. Oh did You hear about AL GORES Chemical company getting fined for Illegal dumping? Probably not.

Excellent post by Mark, typical responses from some others in this thread, posting links to various websites proves nothing nor does a consensus among a group of scientists.

Man made global warming is the biggest single con-trick ever perpetrated on the people of earth.

The star responsible for this 1 degree rise in the earths temprature is the Sun. Nevermind though, climate change has given the tree hugging numptys a chance to spew forth horrible cliche statements like "we must do all we can to save our planet from disaster"

Somebody pass me the sick bucket.

how does does co2 heat up the world I just do not get it. I always hear about the big picture but where the detales of co2 and I do not think any one can prove it.I think it may becouse in the 40 we had lots of coal bearnig plants putting out dark dust into the air. and now we do not have the big coal burnig factories. So if we go back to wood fires and coal burning factories maybe the earth would cool off. The air may be to clean.

none of that is right hippos caused global warming

brittany hastert couses global warming

I can't believe that NO ONE is using thier Noodles here. FACTS People FACTS not "I hate Bush or GORE...and so they are right or Wrong.


Each person in US emits 6.6 tons annually to Air polution…this includes all autos, homes, factories, electrical generation, appliances EVERYTHING.
For the most part everyone in the US emits about 6 times more than the rest of the world

But lets suppose ALL the world lived at OUR standards of luxury and Emmitted the same amounts
So…6.6 times 6,600,000 people world wide is 43,560,000,000 tons emmitted annually
In a 365 day year that’s 119,342,465 tons daily.
The earth has 6ooo TRILLION tons of atmosphere that is constantly cleaning and regenerating itself daily, much like a swiming pool circulates and cleans the water of polutiants daily.

Dividing the 119,342,465 tons daily into the 6000 trillion tons of atmosphere comes to a RATIO of = 1 / 50,275,482 tons Sounds like a lot dosent it? One in 50 million. The Powerball has better odds.

So what if you had a 20,000 gallon swimming pool and you "Spit in it" ONCE a day everyday for a year, do you think with the pump running filtering and the water moving ,Much like the earths atmosphere but only on a smaller scale, do you think that it would be polluted at the end of a Year?
Not hardly right?

Lets see spit is about a tablespoon, and 32 table spoons to a pint and 2 pints to a quart and 4 quarts to a gallon is = 256 spits per gallon…those are mighty big spits mind you.

256 spits times 20,000 gals is 5,120,000 ….
…so that would be an annual ration of = 1 / 5,120,000 spits….Or One in 5 million compared to our Pollution ratio of 1 / 50,275,482 tons or about 10 times more for the pollution spitting into the Pool than our emissions of co2 into our Earths atmosphere.

So if everyone in the world used the same amount of energy contributing to pollution as we do NOW in the US (not hardly for at least 1000 years more) it would be
About the same as spitting into a 20,000 gallon swimming pool ONLY 36 time a year and expecting it to be polluted.

How foolish.

FACTS not opinion People lets us our BRAINS for a while not our emotions.

Mr. H, fortunately for the world, climate scientists have more sophisticated ways of measuring the effect humans are having on the earth's atmosphere. See:

Climate models show that CO2 emissions produced by people are largely responsible for global warming. So I'd suggest that you do more research and rely on facts rather than your own beliefs.

Carbon Dioxide is a natural, abundant chemical that is essential to the growth of all plants and trees. You and every other member of the planet's six billion human population emits CO2 every time they exhale. Termites produce ten times the amount of C02 than all the fossil fuels burned in a year worldwide. The technology of energy production, transportation, etc., has been calculated to be only 0.04 per cent. The UN Kyoto Climate Control Treaty is intended to control that! Do you think 0.04 per cent has any effect? The notion of calling CO2 a "pollutant" is ludicrous. Worse, it is a criminal fraud.

so i'm not sure what the confusion is here... are we fighting over whether global warming exists? or whether we want to be selfish jerks who could care less about what our children have to live in? ... seems to me the jury can be out for as long as they want deliberating this 'issue'... as for me, i'm going to take the best care of earth as i possibly can. maybe CO2 doesn't cause global warming... but toxic chemicals can't be good for our environment even if global warming isn't their direct cause.

perhaps we need to focus our attention on ways to keep things good, instead of serving our own, rather selfish agenda's, and think of those who are yet to use what we leave behind...


Im from Australia and we r currently on level 5 drought restrictions. ITs bad, but to blame global warming is simply idiotic!

i am 14 and currently doin a debate at school, that 'global warming is a conspiracy' and i am affirmative to this. Being third speaker, i need to be quick on my feet, and all of your arguments have helped me a lot with back up support, so thanks!
Now, on my personal opinion....

Ever thought that everything has been put out of porportion? Everything is worse than anything that has happened before, and nowadays it is all being pointed to global warming. they need an excuse for a disaster and global warming seems to be the easy option. Media and politics benefit from global warming theories, so maybe they are using it to their advantage! Politics need something to fix, so that the public votes for them. Media needs a story!

Global warming is ridiculous! The whole of history has contained changes in temperature. Just because it is a little hotter doesnt mean anything, it shows how prissy our society is! Oh no, i need to install more air con, this is horrible! Go back a few hundred years, when the temperature changed. Did they freak? No, they wore more layers! Quite simple really.

while it may help the economy and environment if the public is scared in to being more environment savvy, this hardly is a good excuse to LIE to the public, and exploit the situation. A book by a former US Senator states 'even if global warming turns out to not be true, it is good so that the economy benefits as they will use less carbon dioxide' he shows no remorse that he believes LYING to the publi about global warming. Perfect example that policticans and other people of authority may be making all of this up.

Yes there is a temperature change, but get over it! You cant blame everything on global warming, just you wait, ten years or so they will be sick of global warming, and a new 'disaster' will be out. Get ready

thanks all, and dont get brainwashed by the media, coz ur pretty dumb if u do!

oh please. i think its just a conspiricy. this is just a way for those enviromentals and those senators running for president who support those enviromentals to get thier way up to the top.

i think that this is all a lie

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