Open Thread 49 (free speech for comments)

Here's a new Open Thread.

Remember, off-topic comments should go in an Open Thread. 

As noted before, it's good to have comments in a regular blog post related to its subject, and it's also good to have a place where almost anything goes in regard to sharing ideas, feelings, experiences, and such. That place is an Open Thread.

Leave a comment on this post about anything you want to talk about. Personal attacks on someone are an exception, as is hate speech. Argue with ideas, not insults.

Though I haven't been doing too well on this, I'll try to remember to always have an Open Thread showing in the Recent Posts section in the right sidebar. If one isn't showing, I've added an Open Threads category in, naturally, the Categories section. You can always find an Open Thread that way.

So if you're a believer in some form of religion, mysticism, or spirituality, this is where you can put your "praise God," "praise Guru," or "praise _______" comments.

Comments

[Hear]

RSSB news, or hearsay

I've been told that Gurinder's successor has been giving initiation since late last year. When I asked if he was initiating for Gurinder or for his own initiates, I was told that the latter -- that Jasdeep Singh Gill isn't merely a patron but has been giving initiation as a Sant Santguru in his own right.

Of course, this could be wrong, but a long time satsangi told me this.

[Omega]

Is Gurinder dead yet? His leaving RSSB has been such a non event that it’s almost funny. At least let us know when he’s finally dead.

[manjit]

"His leaving RSSB has been such a non event that it’s almost funny."

Dear Omega, Radhasoami as a whole in the 21st century is a non event.

The 60s are gone, and the 70s-90s hangover from unguided psychedelia has now passed.

People no longer need to sit in meditation for 5 hours a day for 5 years to catch a glimpse of the inner light and sound triggered by a trickle of accidental endogenous DMT release.

They just hit the DMT vape for 10 mins of Sach Khand, chew some fungi for 5 hours of inner journeying, or down some bitter soul vine tea to communicate with the Anami Purush.

The only people still following RS are Indians born into the religion, or old western folks too scared or set in their ways to change course, folks who gave up on the authentic "Search" decades ago. Their spiritual victories are on paper only.

These folks, like any good automaton, have no need for excitement and events. They just keep plodding on, looking neither left nor right, immensely proud of their tunnel vision .

So what kind of excitement are we expecting from the world of RS? Financial scandals, death threats, mysterious deaths, high court trials, and unusual Succession (the TV drama) like successions masked in family politics nobody understands?

Oh, yes. Spirituality. I suppose 🤷‍♂️

[manjit]

Here's a genuine question that occurs to me; has a Satguru, whom let us not forget is God in human form, somehow and somewhat more so than any other human, ever retired before?

I'm sure there's some sort of metaphysical paradox in there somewhere.

I'd try to think of another prior instance of this in history, or the theological implications myself..... but I just don't have the mental bandwidth for this shit nowadays 😅

I'll let the thriving, bustling online RS community engage in a lively debate on the subject....😶‍🌫️

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manjit
Shams i Tabriz declared Rumi as his successor years before Shams completed his Seva. Sadly many of Rumi's disciples decried that Shams had to be false. Shams wrote that such unkind remarks made no difference to him, nor the flattering ones,. But he was concerned because the false accusations were very hurtful to his beloved disciple, Rumi.

History tends to repeat itself. Human beings are largely the same.

What role have we been given? What role would we like to play?

And have we lived with compassion and kindness?

[manjit]

Dear Spence, nice to hear from you again.

I completely disagree that Shams declared Rumi his "successor". Their entire dynamic and relationship was entirely different from the organised and structured model of RS satgurus and successorship. You, as you have often done in the past, have overlayed your RS beliefs over the history of past mystics. It should also be noted that far from teaching "Sant Mat", Rumi actually taught anti Sant Mat doctrines, but that's a discussion for another day.

In regards your comments about compassion and kindness, you talk a lovely talk. Absolutely delightful!

But please excuse me if I recall your turning a blind eye to the indiscriminate slaughter of tens of thousands of Palestinian children, with pretty much your only comment at the time is that it was the fault of Palestinian parents teaching their children hate.

The walk is a lot harder than the talk, isn't it?

I say enough of the talk.

Peace.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manjit
Clearly you have not read much of what Shams wrote, nor what I've written here, and now it seems you are making false statements about my views. Perhaps that reflects your own anti-semitism. That can cloud anyone's judgment.

Your are most welcome to quote and provide reference to the views about Palestine you have attributed to me.

They are absolutely false claims.

In contrast I've written repeatedly, and I will repeat again to help jog your memory.

In 1963, when I was six years old, my parents left Judaism because they were anti-zionists. Our Rabbi taught us that Zion was a place in spirit, not on this earth, and that not one square inch of earth was worth a single tear let alone a single drop of blood.

That you would get this so terribly, tragically wrong is something for your own personal reflection.

But in future, please leave my name out of it.

[manjit]

You have shared your parents story before, Spence. Says very little about you.

And calling me an anti Semite is just icing on the cake! If being opposed to the slaughter of tens of thousands of children is anti semetic, then I'm proud to be anti semetic!

Your bias and lack of compassion for Palestinians, due to your ego-centricity or i-dentity, is plain to see.

All the best!

[manjit]

And your claim about Shams and Rumi is just plain silly and desperate, imo.

I really don't have the inclination to discuss history and mysticism with closed minded religious dogmatists, but here's what Google AI thinks. It knows more than you imo! And that's not flattering, not flattering at all when it comes to spirituality....

AI 1 - 0 Spence

Q: did shams tabrizi declare rumi his successor

"No, Shams Tabrizi did not formally declare Rumi his successor. While Shams was Rumi's spiritual instructor and a significant influence on Rumi's life, there's no historical record of a formal declaration of succession. Their relationship was one of teacher and student, and Rumi became a prominent figure in Sufism and Islamic mysticism in his own right.

While Shams was undoubtedly a significant figure in Rumi's life, there's no documented instance of him formally declaring Rumi his successor or passing on any specific role or authority to him. "

[Spence Tepper]

Now as to the current situation, you have people who have lived for decades and longer on these lands. They should respect each other as brothers and sisters. I believe many of them on all sides want to do this. But the history suggests they are not capable of it. Hence the necessity for diplomacy. That is going to be a multi-stage process of building respect and trust in stages: A new culture for all that costs the price of leaving behind some of the old ways, beliefs and prejudices. And it will require professionals who have far more skill at doing this than you or I.
My comments in the past have included the necessity of both a crease fire and third party intervention.

As for walking the talk, that is a matter of accepting the fundamentals of peace:

1. Peace among different family members or nations doesn't arise out of retribution. It arises out of a belief in and commitment to peace, not violence of any kind, whether by rebellion or military. Who believes this? Only they are qualified to help.

2. Trust that is built by a sincere desire to work together. That includes respect for each other's basic human rights. Who believes in this? Only they are qualified to help.

For those who cannot bring themselves to believe in 1 and 2, what kind of progress can be made? None.

And if anyone cannot offer a real solution based on a respect for rights and a desire to work together, what is the value of their criticism? Zero.

More criticism at this point is just blame, and that works against items 1 and 2 above.

So to walk the talk about real peace, we have to ask ourselves whether we are indulging in criticism, which is only hurting the situation, or acting for a real and lasting peace based on a respect of the human rights of all participants.and if we can't wrap our heads around how to do it, I don't think speaking about it helps. It just adds weight to the problem that is already heavily weighted with difficulties.

[manjit]

And, here is a link to just one of the threads where Spence's compassion led to him spread hasbara lies and justifications whilst thousands of children were being slaughtered.

I cannot find the exact comment where you infer Palestinian parents are the reason their children get slaughtered by colonialist, but anyone with even an inkling of the truth and reality of the situation will see right through your "compassion".

Tribalism is no basis for compassion.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2023/10/religion-plays-a-large-role-in-the-horrible-hamas-israel-war.html

[Spencer Tepper]

"Shams Tabrizi was a pivotal figure in the life of the renowned Persian mystic poet Rumi, influencing his spiritual development and inspiring his poetry. Shams's relationship with Rumi was characterized by intense devotion, guidance, and ultimately, a tragic end. While Rumi's disciples initially viewed Shams negatively, their views shifted over time as they witnessed Rumi's transformation and the profound impact Shams had on him. "

[um]

@ Spence

You are right in saying that speaking does not help, certainly not about human rights as these are not at stake.

As long as there are people that believe that the creator promised a land of honey to a chosen people .. what is written in the old testament will go on.

The old testament is just an concatenation of submission of all those cities and nations that are seen as an obstacle in the fulfillment of that promise ...everything is allowed in the name of god and no mercy or human rights are demanded.

It is a self-fulfilling-prophecy Spence and as long as there are people that believe it to be true and have the power to act upon it, there is nothing in the world that can stop it.

THAT ...was the reason why I wrote in the past that the best solution was to have the Palestinian population emigrate outside Israel and be given all help to build for them selve a decent future ..

Your words are working everywhere else where people have NOT laid their future in the hands of their God, where normal inter human laws are used to settle disputes.

The conflict in Ukraine for example can be solved by diplomacy but not the conflict in the middle east

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manjit
From the very link you provided, here is what I wrote back then..

"I'm not a Zionist. I think we should offer to anyone from Palistine or Jerusalem the opportunity to come live here in America. There is no need to live in a place that requires lethal force, including collateral deaths among innocents, for one's own survival.

"But so long as there are two peoples there, both backed by very wealthy governments, America, Canada, Russia and Egypt, it's going to be very difficult to build Peace.

"And that will require both responsibility and forgiveness.

" We can offer the truth, not to blame, but to understand the necessary conditions for progress."

You can read for yourself that your depiction of my position is false and quite negative.

What would cause you to fabricate something that isn't there?

Reflection is going to be your answer, Manjit, not doubling down on a falsehood.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
As per above I don't think criticism is the answer in inclusivity and equality.

So long as any person harbors blame in their heart, how can they then understand that we are indeed all brothers and systers, and every variation, all created equal, if not in body most certainly in soul?

The critical mind, in service to our actual place as tiny fragments of the same reality, can help.

But detached from that reality, the critical mind just creates isolation and conflict.

[manjit]

Hey Spence, do you know what your calling me an anti Semite, saying I'm doubling down on falsehood and that shamas appointment Rumi as his successor in the RS mode all have in common?

Far fetched, desperate, ridiculous and plainly ego based defences.

One does not have to be intimately familiar with your flowery, wise sounding but ultimately pretentious and empty talk and platitudes to be able to read your comments on Israel's genocide directly and know they are tribal, ego centric rationalisations and justifications for inhumane barbarity.

Let me remind you, whilst thousands of children were being slaughtered by colonialists, at the very same SECOND, you were spouting hasbara lies instead of ANYTHING REMOTELY APPROACHING GENUINE sadness, horror or grief for those Palestinian children. Just more empty platitudes, it's the Palestinian parents fault, it's not their land, Israeli's are just doing self defense but we must still pretend to be sorry for those children, blah blah urrghh 🤢

So whilst I post the entire thread, even if it's not the specific one I was thinking of, I'll let reality speak for itself, and pay no mind to how individuals and their biases interpret it, or cherry pick empty platitudes out of context to make false appearances.

I'll let you crack on with your empty platitudes and preaching then.

All the best!

Manjit

[um]

@ Spence

As far as the psychological personal welfare is concerned you are right.

I do also understand the venting of the emotions of all participating in this conflict and all the rest that has to witness day in day out the horror s of that conflict

But what is unfolding has its own dynamics that are not controlled by anybody. Beliefs, ideologies, ism's etc are operating like laws of nature irrespective of what you and I feel think or write.

As long as that identification with the will of god is not left behind there is no hope ... you see millions of people of good faith, kind of heart etc are supporting that believe ..not only those of the Jewish community but also the Christians all over the world.

None of them have the slightest idea that they are contributing with their believes and faith in what ius developing iin the middle east.

Some might stand up but the majority of believers will not stand up as they did in order to stop the war in Vietnam.

They, these decent Christians chose for Trump as president.as he was considered to be the protector of some of the issues of their faith about abortion etc...knowing that they would have to pay otherwise a price for it.

It is all a matter of psychology .. as long as people identify themselves with things they are not as human beings one can expect the worst to happen.

You see spence .. in theory the European Jews from Europe, now living in Israel could be given a place to live in your country. They could be invited to come a place of milk and honey could be created in the immense territory of the USA. They could accept that invitation ..but do you think that there is anybody that would do so??

I don't think so

And the same is with the Palestinians

I am not looking at those that committing these crimes against humanity but to the the believers that make it possible and think of themselves as having washed their hands in innocence.

[manjit]

"And calling me an anti Semite is just icing on the cake! If being opposed to the slaughter of tens of thousands of children is anti semetic, then I'm proud to be anti semetic!"

One of the proudest positions I have ever taken in my life. Very proud!

One really has to ask, if being opposed to genocide, indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people, mainly children, in the tens of thousands, and critical of the colonial Zionist project and the Israeli government is considered "anti semetic", then which decent human being wouldn't and shouldn't be proud to be "anti semetic"?

What tribal Zionists (however much a few may pretend not to be, in decent company) like Spence are doing when they label those decent, principled, compassionate and empathetic people who are absolutely horrified by Israel's genocide, and the various hasbara lies used to justify it, as "anti semetic", is totally take away the power from the word. It literally makes it a badge of honour rather than mark of shame.

These Zionists who like to conflate genuine compassion for humanity, criticism of genocide and Israel, with "anti semitism" (and let's not forget there are millions of very decent, genuinely compassionate Jewish folks just as much if not more horrified by this genocide than I am! Some of them aren't even RS initiates!) are the REAL anti semites, for they want to drag all Jewish people, whether they want to or not, into their barbaric, colonialist, hate fuelled, racial supremacist world view.

Truly disgusting imo.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"It is all a matter of psychology .. as long as people identify themselves with things...."

Yes, this creates duality and hence conflict is inevitable. Sadly this isn't limited to religion. Political and ethnic differences, class and wealth differences all contribute to conflict. And it isn't always conscious. The sense that" They" are "other" arises all on its own. It is as much a built in element of psychology as anything human beings have created. Even animals have packs and fights to defend the pack or attack others for food or control. Indeed this territoriality of me and mine drives all sorts of problems. Yet to function we need to accept and live within our own personal boundaries. However that should not apply to how we look at anyone else. They are all us.

A deeper connection to the reality that made and sustains all of us certainly helps transcend parochial human thinking.

[Spence Tepper]

Manjit, it seems your radar flashes red at any opportunity to create conflict even when there is an equal opportunity to start with so much common ground.

Do you not understand that I do not condone nor have ever condoned the taking of a single life on any and all sides? I acknowldge it has happened, and there were reasons. But no legitimate justification. Bloodshed has solved nothing. Zero progress. In fact the opposite, only suffering.

And the more we find to hate, the lower we sink into it, the less helpful we become.

What is the price of not hating? Forgiveness, acceptance, kindness. All the rewards of legitimate spiritual practice. Indeed these are the side effects.

History means nothing. We must write a better story that takes us somewhere new and better, not the old.

Bullah Shah wrote that love is always fresh and new. That's where you and I belong.

[um]

@ Spence

I just deleted an long answer ...

But let me just share a small part of it for you, if you feel like, to think about.

The american politicians in their attempt to end the war and to stop the endless killing of their soldiers in the pacific decide to use their new weapon, an nuclear bomb.

What I want to put before you, is ONLY the choices that were made in using these weapons.

the choice was made to drop 2 bombs on 2 cities
instead of
1 bomb and in a save enough distance from a city.

It is that CHOICE that matters a choice that had nothing to do with the atrocities of the Japanese army ... they were just an excuse, an justification to do something that needed not to be done, and should never have been done.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
If you told me that in every family and even within you and I, are selfish decisions that cause harm to others I would agree. This is our condition, and our opportunity is to make some progress towards a higher ethic.

When this is magnified by power, technology, agreement and support by others, then suffering for others is inevitable.

But if you suggest that somehow you or I can view such things with an intellect that is ethically superior to all those in history, I would not agree. We are made of the same clay, and the only hope for society is the degree to which we conquer our own demons and distractions.

"Who sums his fellows up at sight
Brings wonder to their eyes
But he who sums himself aright
Alone is truly wise.

" Who would grind others into dust
Great strength and power will need.
But he who conquers his own lust
Performs the greater deed. "
The Tao of Leo Tzu

Who

[um]

@ sPENCE

https://biblehub.com/psalms/18-42.htm

These are the things believed in and acted upon,
It was done thousands of years ago and it continues to this very day.

[Sunil]

After listening this argument, l asked Chat GPT this

Did Swami ji appointment Jaimal singh his Successor?

Good question — let’s go into it carefully:

No, technically Swami Ji Maharaj (Shiv Dayal Singh, the founder of Radhasoami faith in Agra) did not formally appoint Jaimal Singh as his successor.

Here’s what actually happened:

Swami Ji Maharaj (1818–1878) mostly stayed in Agra, preaching Surat Shabd Yoga (inner sound meditation).

His formal inner-circle successor at Agra was Salig Ram (Hazur Maharaj) — a senior postmaster who became a major figure after Swami Ji passed.

Jaimal Singh was one of Swami Ji’s disciples, but he came from a Sikh background and spent only a short time personally with Swami Ji in Agra (about 2 years before Swami Ji’s death).

After Swami Ji Maharaj passed:

Jaimal Singh did not stay in Agra.

Instead, he went to Punjab and started his own spiritual center near Beas (this later became Radha Soami Satsang Beas or RSSB).

Jaimal Singh always referred to Swami Ji as his Master, but he did not claim to be his official successor at Agra.
Instead, he established a separate lineage based on Swami Ji’s teachings.

---

Summary:

Swami Ji's main successor in Agra: Salig Ram.

Jaimal Singh was a devoted disciple, but not officially appointed successor.

Jaimal Singh started his own line in Punjab (which RSSB continues today).

[sant64]

Interesting interview of yoga teacher who studied Sant Mat and later was mentored by I. Puri. https://escaping-samsara.com/anthony-prem-carlisi-on-astral-travel-grief-and-gurus/

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um:
You gave a link to several different quotes from the Bible.
Let me address one of them:

Jeremiah 51:33
For this is what the LORD of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: “The Daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor at the time it is trampled. In just a little while her harvest time will come.”

This is also reflected in what Jesus said a few hundred years later:
"11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 3:11-12

The common interpretation is that Christ will separate holy people, worthy people, sinners who have repented, from the sinners who have not repented and burn the unrepentant up while taking the holy ones home.

But this is not actually what John or Jeremiah have said here. They are talking about threshing wheat.

Threshing wheat is not a process of selecting good stalks from bad. Threshing is the process of separating the husk from the grain of every stalk.

Along the way, there is the cleaning process. And what is used but the audible Holy Spirit? The Shabd? The Logos?

Threshing applies to everyone: It is the removal of the husks, the layers, including layers of mind that we commonly think of as spirit: layers we mistakenly identify as our true selves, until we are truly free, as beings of light. Swans of light and even more dazzling than that.

Threshing wheat is the breaking of every stalk, and the removal and preservation of every grain, as part of the harvest of all stalks of wheat, and the baking of bread, good food from that wheat. That applies to all of us. It isn't actually an "Us vs Them" thing at all. Threshing is the breaking apart of every stalk of wheat and the gathering of every grain within that stalk. You could say it is separating what is good in us from the rest of us...It's an individual thing. And blessed are those who go through it.

[um]

@ Spence

There are flowers and there are many interested people, all attributing meaning and value to the same flowers .. to name a few, a child fathering them for his mother, a botanist, an artist etc

The same is with the bible and other books, the words spoken and written by others be they saints or otherwise.

Not having any personal experience with the that what is labeled as transcendent, I can only access the transcendent etc in terms of" "what people do with it" what value an meaning they attribute to something and why .

What I wrote is about the old testament, an narrative of an nomad tribe in need for a piece of land for themselves. That book tells us about an elder of that tribe that had an inner experience relate to that need and offering a "divine" solution.. ..not that there was any divinity offering a solution, but that is how it was experienced and later used and is still used until today.

Of course you are free to look upon the content of the old testament in an abstract, spiritual way. Nothing wrong with that, there are many in the world that do attribute meaning and value to their scriptures in that way but there are others that do not share that idea of holy books pointing the way to their divine origin and do read their books as an divine help to live their lives on earth, they are not at all interested in your point of view.

For the common believer, whatever is the meaning of their life, what happens after death etc is all related to their live here on earth ... what the late MCS pointed at as turning prison cells from one category in an other. For them their is no spirituality.

People in Gaza are not interested on spirituality but in survival and for that reason the pray to God to save them, they do not care what you and I write here religion is an psychological tool to cope with life.

And those that conflict that suffering upon them, do it for the same reason, .. survival and they too use their spiritual books as a psychological tool to justify what they are doing ... putting it in the hands of god, that gave them ..ordered them .. to possess that land

It is an ideology Spence and all involved are willing to kill and be killed for that ideology to be come reality.

Given what is written in the old testament, the powers at hand there is little hope for the Palestinians in Israel.

It is inevitable Spence .. ideology is an self fulfilling prophecy,a prophecy that is in the hearts of not only the decedents of Abraham but the millions upon millions of Christians, decent people that have no idea that they in their own way contribute to what is developing in the middle east.

The late MCS taught me to look upon everything spiritual in psychological terms .. who, what, why does handle spirituality ..and I am very grateful

[spence tepper]

Hi Um:
What the authors of those ancient texts really meant is certainly and entirely up to personal interpretation. The Bible isn't complete alone. It is a part, like any book. Upon reading, we complete the book with our own understanding.

That is an individual matter. Some see God in every grain of sand. That is an individual matter.
And some see that we are indeed bags of aging chemicals, unreliable, changing from moment to moment, passing through so many different levels of consciousness, or psychology. Every culture, every family, every society having their own interpretation and version of right and wrong.

No doubt about that.

But I would rather discuss light, than darkness. A universal light available to all. A light that has nothing to do with this place. That interests me. Something pure and unassailable. A positive principle. MCS taught that, too. And it is the birthright of everyone. It isn't limited to people of one religion, one place, one time, one orientation; kept away and secret from all others. It's in everyone, and we are all living because of it. The journey is to see it directly, to witness it, and to enjoy it.

Anyone interested automatically moves closer to it.

That's my interest. And for some reason I find ancient and some more recent spiritual texts speak to that, and are in their way inspiring allegories of the difficulties and the rewards of progress towards that light.

Others have done other things with those texts, certainly. They are completed by our own understanding. But I choose a more universal, inclusive and helpful interpretation.

I do not weight what others are doing, especially if it is destructive, too much. Certainly I'm not so interested, unless it comes to my doorstep and I have a chance to help make things right. Then the obligation is on me to act.

But if I don't want to act, don't want to take that responsibility, certainly, how does judging others negatively help?

[um]

@ Spence

The world is divided in those that have or have had inner experiences. I have come to understand that these experiences are so overwhelming that what is experience is not valued as something personal, a mental mirage but as the very truth of reality.

I never had any problem with accepting that and in their shoes, I probably would act and react as they do. For others these experiences are nothing bur an narrative, a hearsay, that they are free to believe, believe in their own way and use it.

It has been a psychological eureka moment when I found out that all these experiences that form the foundation of every religion and school of spirituality are based upon such an experience and that those experiences were always unique ..unique for that person. I have written about it several times. The understanding ..to use that example again .. that the lord spoke to abraham bur that same god forgot to inform me ..ME ... being any other human being, especially the elderly of the tribes of those days nor the leaders of nations later on. That same lord, that had the power to appear to abraham could have appeared to the elderly of the other tribes living in that land of honey and tell them, that he had given that land to others. That has been a freeing understanding.

I agree with what I came to understand from Baba Garibdas and Great master that humanity can be divided in 8 categories, 7 of which have all selfish motives, running from plain material to even the spiritual .. they are not at all interested in the divine. There are many tales that are used to elaborate that issue, one of the most beautifull is that of the king that had a tower build in several levels.

So spence You have your experiences and I have none ..your experience is meaningless for me in the sense that I cannot taste your coffee. You belong to the "happy" few that have these experiences ...that is allright.

My experoiences are all related to this world and my fellow human beings ..what they do, why etc ...what matters is the simple here and now, ..living in this world, experiencing it with what is called me and um and doing his best to declutter his mind from the traces that the hearsay has left in him.

For me yo and I are human beings going through a human experience

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um:

You wrote:
"For me yo and I are human beings going through a human experience."

Understood.

I would not distinguish spiritual from physical experiences. The one experiencing is the same. We see through layers that is all. We add our conditioning to what we are seeing. We sleep, we wake, and when we are awake, we are often at different levels of wakefulness, awareness and perception. And when we sleep, also, there are different levels of unconsciousness. Education can also help raise consciousness to the extent that we become aware of something we didn't understand before. Education is also a form of enlightenment, and connected with it, all of Science.

You mentioned having your own epiphany in how you interpreted other spiritual literature. The God that inspired Abraham didn't inspire his followers in the same way, you wrote. But I would say it may be a little more complicated than that. When the priest entered the holy of holies, they were after some new experience of the divine. What was in the books weren't enough. The past wasn't enough. They wanted to experience intimacy with God for themselves, and possibly to bring that benefit back to others.

They were praying for something, and going into that private tent, getting something back, some new insight, direction, something they could bring out to help ease the burden of others.

The whole story of the Jews emancipation from Pharoah, their throwing off that old culture and lifestyle, entering the wilderness, and step by step approaching the land they were meant for, ultimately, returning to God's land, are all mystical allegories of emancipation from this physical, limited place to something unlimited, pure, kind. The place in Spirit where "the lion will lay down with the lamb" and all creatures will be vegetarian. It's an expression of an ideal, and we see that as something spiritual. The land of Israel is within. The story is allegorical. And it matters not to explain anything about real estate in Jerusalem.

St. Paul teaches this directly, while also alluding to reincarnation:

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
Hebrews 11:13-16

You see, Um, even 2,000 years ago, the idea of Judaism was a place in heaven. A return to our true home in heaven. This is a much older interpretation, with thousands of years of belief.

The promise of Israel is within. This is what the Diaspora took with them. This is what made Judaism sustainable, that was a spiritual belief that was 100% portable. You carried Israel with you wherever you went.

Long before the recent notion of creating a new nation here (the Zionism movement) Judaism was entirely portable to wherever Jews found themselves. It goes with you where you go because it's internal. That's what has kept Judaism alive. Not Zionism. Zionism is a recent political movement. But it isn't what kept the Judaic people devoted to their beliefs wherever they found themselves in the world. And no one should take Zionism alone as Judaism. The two are 100% different things.

There was no hope, and no real interest in starting a new nation until relatively recently, maybe 150 years ago, and mostly during and since WWII, when the need for refuge and sanctuary became life or death issues for Jews.

The hope of the return to Israel was a prayer to God for a place God prepared in spirit, not something created by human beings.

But over time that became corrupted.

What the priest brought out of that tent, out of their prayer and meditation, an answer, direction, etc., this came from within them. But that includes whatever they could perceive.

Everyone wants to raise their consciousness in one way or another, so they can see better, and be closer to reality, more intimate with it. People take different paths. That has nothing to do with real estate.

Where we both agree is that not everyone sees the same things in spiritual literature. But if one looks back it is often quite different than the modern political version.

So one can't lay on that interpretation and say "this is the religion of Judaism". It's more complicated than that. It includes the spiritual tradition, that actually persists, if in minority, today.

Two hundred years ago no Jew believed in a political state. They did believe God would take them back to their true home, in Spirit.

But people will believe what they wish, that applies to you and I both. And that's OK. But not to say "this is what YOU believe...this is what THEY REALLY believe." No. We can only say, with any credibility, "This is what I take from that. This is what I personally believe."

A little research though, can help deepen our understanding.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um:

Just a little more about this notion (not popular today, (except in today's versions of Judaic mysticism) but prevalent a few hundred years ago) that God was returning Jews to a place in heaven...

In chapter 29 the Book of Jeremiah says: 14. "And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you."

"I will be found by you.." that's an internal journey of the individual back to the place they were already exiled from...that is a place in heaven we were "exiled from"...so that's the place we are returning to....at least according to the Bible (not modern interpretation).

[um]

@ Spence

I used the story of Abraham as an example, an example of humans having an inner experience and how that experience was handled.

The whole story is meaningless outside Judaism and Christianity and Islam ... That power of which the Bible speaks that addresses Abraham, did not speak to the elders, the shamans, etc of , say, the Hopi, the aboriginals etc ... You shamans, hear upon me the god of israel, I chose them as my people being the light on earth and gave them a piece of this earth

You see THAT is the point not what was said to whom, but the lack of information to the rest of the world.

If nobody had spoken to me about God etc , I, I would never have had any interests at all, not then not now. Questions about, who am I, why do i live etc etc. never did arise in my mind. There is no need to know, believe anything in order to drink coffee

I, by the world known as um, has to deal with the experience of his body, his mind, his existence and all that belongs to it, that is all, there is no longing for something beyond that .. how could it be?!

Experience is the only thing that matters and cannot be shared

again:
The pull must come from within
and
if it is not there it is just not there
and
there is nothing you can do about it

In the same way an experience BEFALLS a person or not and as far as I came to understand ONLY after an experience trauma.

Abraham was after a land and mystics the like of say ..Father Lazarus el Antony [ his biographic video's are on youtube, that explains what I mean]. What happened to him, did happen to many others ...personal mental collapse => inner experience => sharing the experience with the world [what is good for me is good for you]

Please do not misunderstand me .. blessed are those that believe.
But believe, faith are like an inner experience .. a GIFT ...not that there is a giver ...but they can not be created at will ...an I do accept that for what it is, like the trees and the crows.

You will never find me arguing with another human being believing this or that or sharing his experience with me .. personally I have no desire to deepen my understanding of any religion, philosophy etc anymore and do my best , as I wrote to declutter my mind from what I came to learn

[um]

@ Spence

What god said to this or that Jewish prophet doesn't mater for others than them and if there is a divine power you speak of, he, she or it FAILED to inform the rest of the world.

[October]

Radhasoami path is true path.No doubt about it.My personal experiences are testimony to that.I have facebook page where I run the Kumar Sant Mat Mission.
https://www.facebook.com/share/1HNjvumHGk/

I had offered initiation challenge at yahoo group Radhasoami studies where I offered temporary initiation to anyone who is interested.i repeat it here again.

I will initiate anyone and all he/she is to accept it and follow my instructions.
Meditate for a week. But catch is whoever accept it has to write down whatever experiences he/she has here in this forum.After a week initiation will expire on its own.
He may then, if intrested , can request for full initiation.

So far nobody has accepted this challenge.if anyone interested here at this form or bold enough to accept this challenge, may write to me at [email protected].

I hope I find someone bold enough to accept this challenge.

Remember ego is where Matrix find it's glitch.

Thanks

[sant64]

Gasoline just broke $1.98 a Gallon, lowest in years, groceries (and eggs!) down, energy down, mortgage rates down, employment strong, and much more good news, as Billions of Dollars pour in from Tariffs. Just like I said, and we’re only in a TRANSITION STAGE, just getting started!!! Consumers have been waiting for years to see pricing come down. NO INFLATION, THE FED SHOULD LOWER ITS RATE!!! DJT

-- From Donald Trump Truth Social 05/02/25 08:45 AM

Also, the stock market has been roaring back.

I know that for some of you, every day for the last 10 years has been Armageddon. Consider that every one of your predictions about Trump has failed. Every single one. Keep that in mind - - question your need to constantly freak out over this president.

[Grok 3]

No, gas prices have not fallen to $1.98 per gallon anywhere in the United States as of May 2025. According to multiple sources, including AAA and GasBuddy, no state had an average gas price close to $1.98 in April 2025, with the lowest state averages in Mississippi and Tennessee at around $2.70 per gallon. GasBuddy, which tracks prices at over 150,000 stations, found no station selling gas for $1.98, with the lowest reported price being $2.19 at a Texas station in April 2025. National averages have hovered around $3.14-$3.25 per gallon in early 2025, and claims of $1.98 gas have been consistently debunked as false.

Trump’s policies have not demonstrably brought down the price of eggs as of May 2025. Retail egg prices remain at record highs, driven by avian flu-related supply shortages and inflationary pressures, including Trump’s tariffs. Wholesale price declines are notable but reflect external factors like reduced demand and fewer bird flu cases rather than specific policy successes. The administration’s avian flu plan and import strategies show intent to address the issue, but their impact is limited by long timelines, contradictory tariff policies, and public health missteps. Claims of dramatic price reductions are unsupported by data and appear exaggerated for political effect.

[sant64 2028]

@Grok 3

Hey, no argument. When you're wrong you're wrong. Trump's specific claims about eggs and gas prices don't hold up.

Nevertheless, the relentless full-scale freak-out of Dem's predicting Armageddon as a result of Trump's presidency isn't holding up either.

[um]

In Chapter 9 of "the psychology of Totalitarianism" by Mattias Desmet, professor in clinical Psychology at the Belgian University, of Gand "The dead versus the living Universe", he refers to a theory of Aristotle an the causes for what appears and the use he makes of the making of an statue as an example
- material [Without the marmor no statue}
- efiiciency [ Without the craft of the artist no sculpture]
- formal { without an mental idea no statue]
- final [Without somebody wanting the statue, no statue]

Desmet goes on to use it to describe the "mechanical" and the"living"universe.

It reminded me of my used when some nerts of the day would speak about our first kisses of girlfriends as a dirty pressure of lips on one another, transferring all sorts of bacteria, the possible cause of illness.

The book might bring some light in the darkness of the mechanical universe etc

[um]

hahaha ...used = youth

The mechanical universe only addresses the first two causes for the universe, its birth, its development and the creation and action of everything else. ...while .. the last two makes the first not only possible but also attributes meaning and value. ..something without which humans cannot even survive.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"What god said to this or that Jewish prophet doesn't mater for others than them and if there is a divine power you speak of, he, she or it FAILED to inform the rest of the world."

It does matter, Um, that's why people rever such spiritual writings. Otherwise no one would continue to follow any teachings. They work for the person who chooses to believe them. Perhaps they resonate with their own inner voice.

In this world anything can be twisted to manipulate innocent people. The best defense against this is not to shout at what you see as darkness, but to light a candle within oneself. That candle may only shed light on one's own personal situation, and provide inspiration, strength and direction for one's own personal use, and not for anyone else's use. But that's quite a miracle still. In fact it is a greater miracle to understand it is really only for one's own use, and perhaps as an inspiration to others to find that within themselves.

[um]

@ Spence

Of course it does matter what people believe, .. to them and to the world .. rivers of blood were created until this very day..the daily news on TV tells us what people believe

[um]

@ Spence

I believe what is attributed to Abraham and mystics and I also believe what you wrote here about your own experience. ..believe ... meaning, that you and others tell their truth about what they experienced and are not lying about it.

But, the moment you or anybody else adds to it that there is an power beyond them is the source of what they say ..these days i will,..IF in a good mood and having had enough coffee .. answer .. that is alright but that power failed to inform me about you and what to make of what you say.

That is all and this very simple observation has set me free.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
I think the secret to spiritual experience is something you and I both agree upon. It is about another place and therefore what we believe or see can only apply to us. But to allow individuals to live as they like, without judgment, is a foundation for each person to make progress in their own way.

The Krishna that told Arjuna to proceed with murder on the battlefield should not be a justification for anyone else.

[um]

@ Spence

There is no progress to be made.

What matters is, to discover what we came to identify ourselves with in the process of being prepared for the participation in the public domain as being of OTHERS being fed with like the milk of our mothers as not being OURS ... that discovery sets us free ...and is an invitation to leave the streets in which its artificial lights gives a false impression of who and what we are.

I was not born to be a son, brother, friend, uncle to anybody, kill or be killed for this or that ideology, state form etc nor was I born to learn what can be learned, nor to believe what can be believed believe myself as a human being to be and live what I am NOT

It is that simple ...

[um]

@ Spence

Spiritual experience do befall people, mostly in an reaction an trauma of sorts. that is certainly an relieve for them as it helps them to overcome their trauma.

Once I was told the whole history of a person. I did not interrupt her and listened to her until she was finished .. there upon i was silent for o while and then answered her ..Whatever you could have done wrong in your live your did wrong, but whenever I would have been in your shoes, I too would have acted as you did ..upon which she wept for quite a while, shedding of all her emotions etc.

No living creature can live and grow from what another living creature is consuming and digesting.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"No living creature can live and grow from what another living creature is consuming and digesting."

If you will take a moment to reflect you will see that in fact all living things feed off of other living things.

When you eat soy beans you consume everything the soy plant has consumed and digested.

Even your philosophy is derivative of what you learned from others, however independent you may think you are.

We are products of conditioning.

Choose good food over bad, because what you consume becomes you.

You are what you eat. ;)

[um]

@ Spence

Of course all living creatures keep themselves alive by killing and consuming the rest-life-energy of other living creatures on but what you consume doesn't feed others not even those that are dear to you.

What you experience cannot be experienced by others if that would be the case those living with people that have inner experiences benefit from it. It is a well known fact that many families with a person having an NDE fall apart afterwards.

You see my late dear friend got and deep and long lasting inner experience, and experience that made him write poetry for days, weeks and month at a strech, what reminded me of the way many mystics processed their emotions as can be found in the many Sant Mat books mo different saints.

Yet Spence, both my friend and I had to do our utmost best to hold each others hand in order to prevent that we were drifted away from one another through the force of his experience. .... What kept me going and made it possible was NOT the effect of his experience but the simple feelings of human comradeship of the past

Again nobody can live and flourish from whatever others consume and digest, in their body, their mind or even their soul if there is one.

It surprises me that you have difficulty in grasping simple truth in a simple way.

Just before sending these words I heard the memory of an voice in my mind ... Brother, THEY have nothing to share of themselves with you

[manjit]

Here's some more on meditation masters and their infinite compassion;

https://youtube.com/shorts/NIEdYzvaIg8?si=vT5hOJUKmrZ6aTYF

Nailed it.

If you can't see the absurdity, then you can't see why these wannabe mystics and conmen have nothing to offer you other than empty but nice sounding words, hypothetical benefits and spiritual victories confined to paper only

[BIG antii Sionist --- they are no semites - DNA tests are firbidden -]

"What god said to this or that Jewish prophet doesn't mater for others than them and if there is a divine power you speak of, he, she or it FAILED to inform the rest of the world."

There are several gods" ibnthe kid teqrmznt

A Nice one from Mechisedek and , next the cruel one
from Jericho
Lucifer still leads no wonder the name is hiddenAngel cyborg

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
Where we went off track was your insistence that the Bible was written literally, telling Jews to take land and form the nation of Israel. That was not the common interpretion among the majority of the Jews over one hundred years ago and for the two plus millennia since the Bible was written.

Zionism didn't exist one hundred and fifty years ago. The Bible was all about what God was going to bring about, not what human beings were doing in politics.

So if that is unclear to you, then why impose a modern interpretation of how you read the Bible?

You wrote that God told the Jewish prophets to take land. That wasn't the common interpretation nor did any Jew before the last century presume as much.

That is the only point I was making. Your claim that God told Jews to take land is your own interpretation and does not reflect what Jews took from the Bible for over two thousand years.

Before Zionism no Jew thought God had told them to take anyone else's land. And not all Jews are Zionists.

[um]

@ Spence

What I wrote is about an personal understanding ..I am not an historian.
As several times stressed I used it as an example about the having of so called inner experiences are related psychological and also social circumstances of those that have these experiences and those that hear them and use to for their own personal and social interests.

As a lover of biographies, I just found what i have tried to put into words, being the case all over the place and time.

Inner experiences are without exception always related to an severe need, personal or social...the raise, the birth of any mystic school is always related to a social,cultural "trauma". ...what made me label them as therapeutic tools in order to cure, to make emotions come to rest.

That said ... the bible books all tell about the an people and is existance on earth.

[um]

@ Spence

In the days of Christ, people in Palestine were living under Roman rule, not only worldly but also religious. The people desperately were hoping for an kingdom of their own and living according their own religious traditions, traditions that spoke of many representatives of their god, in the form of the many prophets, so they were also hoping for a new prophet to guide them.

Christ came and presented himself to THEM, those that were waiting for a SOCIAL reform.

What did Christ offer them? He did not start an revolution against the Romans he said, indirectly, accept, and adapt and find peace inside ..the kingdom of heaven.

He did not say, what most Christians do believe that he had come to die for their sins. He accepted the penalty of the roman authorities as a price for his truth.

You see this is yet another example of how new religious movements are related to and started with an social problem.

It is a psychological solution of an social problem ..it has all the qualities of the approach as put forward by for example MRS Eger and Dr V. Frankl .. is is taking what I call the small road, a way of dealing with personal and/or social trauma that can best me expressed with ..love they enemies.

That small road has nothing to do with enemies, nor with loving them, it just shows somebody that has ears to hear how to ..FREE .. him or herself from the outer cause.

I do understand that religious and spiritual people cannot accept my point of view by pointing their "divine" approach as an psychological solution.

So the way you read the words of Isaiah and how it is taken by others is in fact the "same"

[um]

@ Spence

People should ..."KNOW themselves" .."know"... who and what they are as human beings. Know what thoughts are and how they are used, what the functions of thinking.
That knowledge lies inside themselves like the proverbial KEYS ..it is not that complicated..it becomes complicated and complex by to much talking with others ...the friends in the streets where the light of the world shines.

If they just stop talking to their "friends" and go "home": and find for them selves they can find the answers to all the questions they have..they also will start to understand themselves as a conditioned human being with a name a personal history and their unique variation they share with ALL others like themselves ... being human and how little they know about what humans make human than they mat get a glimpse of that mystery, realizing that what is an unique is just an unique variation of the same

that humans are the creator gods of their own universe.

Maybe I am making something simple what is complex and divine
maybe others are making something simple complex what is all too humane
and
maybe these are all mental fantasies due to drinking the wrong brand of coffee
hahahaha

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"Inner experiences are without exception always related to an severe need, personal or social...the raise, the birth of any mystic school is always related to a social,cultural "trauma". ...what made me label them as therapeutic tools in order to cure, to make emotions come to rest."

I'm not so sure. Yes I do think we all act to avoid pain and find some peace and pleasure in life. But that is the human condition. It is the same for all sorts of schemes, whether religious, political, social, physical or psychological.

Whatever inspired the cell phone inspired Moses. Whatever inspired Thomas Jefferson inspired Thomas Edison. You and I don't have access to that. Or do we? Whatever internal event that was. Maybe everyone does. Maybe that potential is baked into each of us.

But we all benefit by it, indirectly. And so some are inspired to find that in themselves, to learn to connect with creativity within themselves. That is as often a positive inspiration for personal growth as it is an effort to escape pain.

The very thing you claim doesn't exist inside you may be the very thing that is actually speaking through you.

[um]

@ Spence

If you want to understand my point of view for yourself, just start reading biographies of those that are known in the world as mystics etc...maybe you will find what they have in common.

What I write about is what I found they have in common ..those that speak up in the public domain and offer solutions or teachings, all started doing so AFTER an psychological trauma.

When did Kabir enter the public domain?
What made prince Gautama enter the public domain?
When did the prophets spoke in the public domain?

They all did in reaction to an developing social trauma.

[um]

@ Spence

Suffering.

Baba Faqir Chand, writes about the personal trauma he faced and the soldiers under his command.
In the trauma folling a breakdown of his survival mechanism ..his own guru appeared to him and told him what to do and in the same way his soldiers saw him when they were in trouble.

His guru told him that he knew nothing from the incident, nor did the Faqir knew about the problems of his soldiers ..so YES, there is no reason to doubt the stories of both BFC as his own soldiers. yet the one to whom these things were attributed did not have any knowledge about it

What happened to Abraham etc is of the same order Spence.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um:

You wrote:
"What happened to Abraham etc is of the same order Spence."

I think it is a bold claim to state that one incident thousands of years apart from another, with different people and time, is in fact the exact same mechanism. And in truth, you and I have no knowledge of what that mechanism might be. We are depending upon verbal reports, and then picking to choose what we wish to believe about them.

Suffice it to say we know very little of reality. I would suggest another problem that helps explain this habit of thinking we know when we don't. It is the tendency to utilize analogous thinking in place of inductive reasoning. In otherwords, making assumptions about an event we have no actual factual information about by comparing it to something else where we have some, but not all, information. And then assuming the two situations are the same dynamic.

It is more likely, given the paucity of actual information, that the two events are not the same, and further, that our understanding of either event is incomplete at best. And being incomplete, any conclusions are going to be very likely in error and most certainly inaccurate.

It is a proven fact, however, that one single piece of information that was unknown and is now added to the case can entirely reverse the conclusion. And therefore, not having the facts, we should avoid making armchair conclusions, at least if we are attempting to understand something.

No one should believe a poorly based opinion as easily as they disbelieve any other report about an unknown event.

But the two are not the same.

[um]

@ Spence

There has never been a Spence before you and after you die there will never be one, yet you have something common with all those live around you ... you are a unique variation ..of what is labeled as ..HUMAN

Now ...you are free to focus on that uniqueness of your self and the uniqueness of the experience of Abraham, but that cannot effect the sameness.

[um]

@ Spence

In a strange way, what St John of the Cross wrote in his poems and later explained to the nuns of Avila is related what is at stake here.

He wrote that:
..IF....the Lord wants to reach out to somebody, he does so in DARKNESS.
is accompanied by

Then he goes on to explain that:
- OFTEN, this touch of the Lord is accompanied by INNER EXPERIENCES
AND
UNFORTUNATELY ...
- these experiences, are seen as the very touch itself.
[Unfortunately as it is an distraction on the path and or opening a door for the appearance of "unwanted" powers

I tend to add to the last ...powers of personal imagination, being the outcome of the desires and needs of a person

P.S.
Within the box, there is much variety of thinking, controversial thinking etc etc etc, all things that do not exist outside the box ...outside the box there is FREEDOM of thought

St John had to fear for his life and was for a while carcerated.

What I took from the association with the late MCS is ...FREEDOM. ...How he came to be a guru, how he handled that psychological and how he later on did his duty towards the masses in answering their questions, as to how to live and how to handle the teachings and practice of Sant mat ..all ...all ..all bear the stamp of FREEDOM, mental freedom.

[Ron E.]

Just switched onto a couple of news channels to see if world peace has broken out! But the news channels were all about the conclave and electing a new pope. I don’t doubt that pope Francis was a kindly man and had people’s interests at heart and although he spoke out about real important issues such as climate change, looking around the world little has changed, in fact, with self-serving socioipathic leaders like Trump who has no interest whatsoever in the health of the oceans and land (only in self-aggrandisement), the environment has a bleak future.

With issues like climate change, the invasion, bombing and killing of people in Ukraine and Gaza, no matter how often well-meaning people like a Pope and other concerned figures of importance ‘call for peace’ and real action toward the most important issue of climate change and environmental destruction facing us today, people’s greed and unwillingness to change and address the problem seriously can only result if further misery and distress.

The only recourse is for people to ‘stick their head in the sand’, pretend it isn’t happening and believe the latest conspiracy theories. We need enlightened world leaders (and citizens), (not just a few counties and organisations), who can muster people together for the benefit of all and in particular, for future genera-tions. We seem to forget, or not want to recognise that this planet, the environment and ourselves are intimately connected; disturb one eco-system and (as past actions show), it always has serious consequences.

[um]

@ Ron E.

You often write about role of survival.

If we look around us, it appears that all living creatures depend on themselves, even in herds.

All those institutions and individuals who pretend to be able to help others, change things for the better, are not only the cause of all existing problems but also their lasting presence.

Humans are natural beings and should live a natural life.

Living in cities, guided by social, cultural ideologies, laws etc does that make for a natural life?

We are made to gather our own food and take responsibility for our personal welfare but can we in such circumstances as we have created for ourselves?

With every step we take, we have to take into account many things that are not there, abstract, ideological things ...even our furniture in house "command" us to sit in a particular way in a given space. We have hardly any control over our life ..we consume things made by others, behave as commanded and controlled by others.

People like Hannah Arendt and Mattias Desmet, although not touching it in this way, write about the consequences, individual, social and cultural. ... people do not feel at home, settled and safely, in a surrounding they understand, of which they share the same understanding with those around them what makes them feel isolated, and impossible to attribute meaning and value to their life. This creates fear. Humans in order to act properly need to understand their environment ..that is why we have eyes, ears and a mind and when the incoming information is ambiguous and cannot be organized properly continuous stress will be the outcome ..and if that lasts long enough for a growing amount of people, then the clutter together, form a mass and ..spit out and "snake oil seller" that offers the so needed solutions.

Changed for the better and the desire to explain, control and foresee the future has made us live, as they write, in a mechanistic way more or less likje robots or zombies.

Humans do not have the power, mental or otherwise, to change nature for the better, they are made to live int it, adapt to it.

We have been crippled made into slaves of others no longer able to stand on our own feet as a natural human ..the level of dependency on others and outward abstract things is the real thing..there is no solution to be had from anybody

Happy are those that have maintained their natural way of life as some remote indigenous tribes are still doing

[sant64]

@ Ron E.

Frankly, I think your pov is why Trump is president and Kalama is not. None of the dem leaders are even talking about "climate change" any longer, which is a telling indication that none of them ever believed it was the existential danger they claimed it was. For sure most people in the country don't care a fig about climate change as a priority. A 2024 Yale Program on Climate Change Communication survey found that only 37% of registered U.S. voters (including Democrats) said global warming is "very important" to their vote, and among moderate/conservative Democrats, it ranked 14th out of 28 issues, with environmental protection at 8th. Liberal Democrats ranked it higher (4th).

A 2022 X post cited a NY Times/Siena College poll claiming only 3% of Democrats viewed climate change as the most important problem facing the country, though this reflects a snapshot where immediate economic concerns likely dominated.

Part of the reason for this lack of enthusiasm is that people now understand that no matter what austerities the US dem leaders foist on the public, it will have no effect whatever on the climate. India and China will go on merrily polluting.

People also understand that the measures taken to "fix the climate" have resulted in sky high electricity prices and brownouts. The windmills, the solar panels, these were short-sighted solutions that bordered on scams. Who's been sticking their head in the sand? I've seen society under the dems take full scale action to re-rig the climate. It did nothing, it just made people's lives worse. People are using more energy than ever and nothing is going to change that, not even "green" energy. The solution is hardly to dun the public with more useless austerities. Trump is taking a reasonable approach to this, for we must have energy. Electric grids across the country are at their breaking point. Technology will make the climate cleaner over time, but we are far better off finding realistic solutions to managing energy and the environment. You know, something better than LA did in dealing with fire danger. Think about LA. The most liberal, the most wealthy, the most environmentally aware region of the US let itself be completely unprepared for an inevitable fire. After that disaster, people were wailing" climate change!!" But it wasn't climate change that was to blame, it was lunkheaded zoning and poor preparation.

America wants to move forward. It doesn't want to be fricken Europe, full of undesirables and feckless leaders who glory in regulations and saving the planet with measures that do nothing.

As for the war in Ukraine, I can't imagine what you want done. The only way to forcibly bring the war to an end would be for the US to attack Russia. We know how that would turn out. Biden's actions did jack squat. Biden refused to even talk to Putin. Trump is at least willing to do whatever it takes to bring the war to a close.

As for Gaza, it's been a very interesting episode of US foreign policy vs domestic policy. By that I mean we saw Biden and Kalama trying to be "fair" to both Israel and the Palestinians. Boy, was that a mistake. A huge political mistake that is, because for their troubles, Biden and Harris only succeeded in having both Israel AND democrats infuriated with them.

Trump is dealing with the Gaza situation as a political realist. He understands that he has to pick a side, and therefore, he's gone all-in in his support for Israel. This makes many of us sick to our stomachs (myself for one) because I'm with Dave Smith and others who say that Israel's "defense'" is only a campaign of murderous spite and ethnic cleansing to steal land. Nevertheless, politicians have to deal with practical solutions, so I at least understand Trump's approach of siding with Israel. And it may well be the only practical solution there is.

[Ron E.]

Trump is leader due to apathy and his ability to distort and lie. He should have been sentenced following his 30 something convictions. Many in the US have been conned by him. The worst and increasingly unpopular president to date.

There are many who are working to help halt and reverse climate change but are up against the defeatist attitude you display. You follow the wrong news feads and propaganda.

[manjit]

I've read some pretty obscene and idiotic defences of the indefensible here over the past 20 months. This is especially worrisome when it comes from those who claim to not only be be spiritual, but also to have transcended the self/ego construct. Their words betray the truth over and over again.

The below is imo pretty much as authentically and spiritual a perspective one can have on the horrors our western governments, media, politicians have enabled and continue to enable to unfold. The funny thing is, no word about God, gurus or the divine are mentioned.

Full text, link to original sub stack and a video of somebody reciting the text linked below.

Well worthy, if not essential, reading:

"Silence is the Oxygen that Genocide Breathes.
This is not about sides. This is about souls. And one simple question: will we stand for life, before it is too late?
Rich Willed
May 18, 2025

This is not just another essay.

This is a response to the question I have been asked over and over again: what can I do?

“It’s complicated.”

“There are two sides.”

“Both are to blame.”

I have used these phrases myself for a long time. I understand the desire to resist the polarities of blame. I understand the spiritual and psychological impulse to hold nuance and complexity, to avoid taking a hardened position.

But at this moment in history—when Israel is openly, and almost proudly, on the verge of ethnically cleansing Gaza in its entirety—I can’t help but feel these lines have become the lullabies of moral distraction: comfortable, neutral-sounding incantations that allow people to avoid responsibility while pretending they care.

But genocide does not happen in a vacuum.

It requires precisely this kind of moral ambiguity to survive.

Let’s be clear: this is not a war between two sides.

When one side controls the borders, the airspace, the water, the electricity, the population registry…

When one side has the tanks, the missiles, the surveillance drones, and the nuclear weapons…

When one side has illegally occupied the other for 57 years, in clear violation of international law…

When one side has explicitly stated its intent to prevent—at all costs—what is, in my view, the only real hope for peace: a two-state solution. And when it can be shown that this same side propped up Hamas strategically, precisely to sabotage that possibility…

When one side has dropped the explosive equivalent of 2–3 Hiroshima bombs on Gaza—and is still bombing…

When one side is now speaking openly and unapologetically about its intention to completely eradicate the other from the land…

And when the other side is starving, displaced, homeless, and dying at a rate of 250 people per day—while begging the world for the most basic human rights…

Then I put it to you that the mere suggestion that this is a conflict between “two sides” borders on insanity.

And yet, somehow, this is still the dominant narrative.

But this is not a conflict.

This is not a war.

This is a one-sided campaign of annihilation that began a long time before October 7.

This is genocide.

This is a slow, creeping campaign of ethnic cleansing—unfolding over decades—that is now reaching its sudden, complete, and horrifying crescendo.

To name these truths is not to erase Israeli suffering. It does not deny the trauma of October 7, the grief of Jewish families, nor the long history of Jewish suffering—mainly at the hands of Europeans by the way...

It is simply to inhabit the reality of what is happening—right now.

“Both sides” has become the shield behind which genocidal power hides.

It creates the illusion of parity, even as the bombs fall almost exclusively on one side of the wall.

It invites us to intellectualise the slaughter of children—to turn starvation into a debate about balance.

But there is no both sides to bombing hospitals.

There is no both sides to snipers and drones killing children.

There is no both sides to blocking food, water, and medicine from a trapped and traumatised civilian population.

There is no both sides dropping 2,000-pound bombs on refugee camps.

And there is no both sides searching desperately for its babies beneath the rubble.

Neutrality in the face of injustice is not virtue.

It is complicity dressed up as reason.

This Is What Genocide Looks Like
Not in theory. Not in textbooks. Not in the shadows of history.

But here. Now. Live-streamed into our homes.

When children starve to death while food trucks are turned away…

When journalists are assassinated, alongside their families, for simply telling the truth…

When 70% of the dead are women and children…

When over 60,000 people have been killed, and entire family lines erased from the registry…

When mass graves are found in hospital courtyards, hands bound, heads crushed…

When the infrastructure of life—schools, homes, mosques, bakeries, water tanks—is systematically dismantled…

That’s not “self-defence.”

That’s not a military campaign.

That’s not unfortunate collateral damage.

That is genocide.

And it’s not just happening—it’s being filmed, funded, justified, and denied in real time.

This is what it looks like when empire drops its mask.

This is what it looks like when the machinery of death is no longer ashamed.

The question is no longer: Is this genocide?

The question is: How many more need to die before we stop pretending it isn’t?

And perhaps more importantly: How is this ok?

It’s Silence That Keeps It Going
“The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.”

—Albert Einstein

Genocide doesn’t just require bombs.

It requires silence.

The silence of journalists who know, but won’t say.

The silence of politicians who whisper concern, but keep sending weapons.

The silence of artists, analysts, and influencers who fear losing followers.

The silence of liberal institutions that pride themselves on nuance, but collapse under moral weight.

And then there’s the most dangerous silence of all: the silence of the masses. The silence within each of us.

The silence that says:

“I can’t do anything.”

“It’s too complicated.”

“It’s not my place.”

“I’m not informed enough.”

“I might offend someone.”

But here’s the truth: You don’t need to be an “expert” to know that starving children is wrong.

You don’t need to be perfect to stand with humanity, you only need to be human.

If I could scream only one thing from every rooftop it would be this: YOUR SILENCE IS NOT NEUTRAL!

This silence—our silence—is the oxygen that genocide breathes.

Silence is what turns crimes into policy, and policy into normalcy.

Because genocide doesn’t need your approval, it only requires your indifference.

Why I Choose to Speak
Because I can’t sleep.

Because every time I close my eyes, I see children, starving, screaming, buried beneath rubble, their names erased with their bodies, as if they never breathed a breath.

Because it’s the only way I can support myself to continue to feel—without collapsing.

Because I have a son.

Because I know what it means to love a child so much your whole world reorients around their breath.

So when I see a father holding the lifeless body of his child in his arms…

So when I see a mother screaming over a bundle on a hospital floor…

I don’t see politics. I don’t see semantics. I don’t see two sides.

I see incomprehensible pain and suffering being normalised.

I choose to speak because it’s how I hold onto my humanity.

I choose to speak because I know that if I stay silent—if I let fear or politeness or spiritual bypassing keep me neutral—then some part of me must die.

Perhaps the most important part of me.

So I speak.

Not to be righteous.

Not to be loud.

Not to shame or blame.

But because I cannot betray the truth of my own heart.

Because I would rather be shunned for speaking than broken for staying silent.

And when my son asks me, one day, what I did during this time?

I want to be able to look him in the eyes and say:

I stood on the side of empathy.

I stood on the side of life."

https://richwilled.substack.com/p/silence-is-the-oxygen-that-genocide

https://www.instagram.com/theundercoverhippy/reel/DJ41JA2tvik/

[manjit]

There are folks here who talk absolute bullshit about love, compassion, empathy and connection.

Empty shells of words.

The author of the above article demonstrates CONNECTION with the meaning contained within his words.

We should be able to distinguish & discriminate between empty shells of words and the real thing itself, which doesn't even need the words compassion, love, connection etc.