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January 13, 2025

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"Today I got one day closer to my upcoming Zen enlightenment. And I won't have to be hit on the head with a stick or sit for hours on an uncomfortable cushion. All I need is my iPhone and a VISA card."

This would be funny if it was meant tongue in cheek But to take apps and Henry Shukman (I just read his book and found him thoroughly underwhelming) seriously?

I agree completely that zen meditation is an effective technique for integrative mind and boy training. If I were in charge I'd have zen meditation part of every grade school curriculum. It's that practical.

But what in the world is this affinity for books and apps as a substitute for sitting? Everybody can sit for at least 15 minutes a day. Sitting is everything. The practice of zazen requires a bit of austerity. But here's a cosmic rule of the universe: You can't get something for nothing. Time on the cushion is the price for integrating the mind.

By the way, the stick only strikes the shoulder area, not the head. And contrary to what it might look like, it's not even a little painful.

@ Sant64

>> By the way, the stick only strikes the shoulder area, not the head. And contrary to what it might look like, it's not even a little painful.<<

Hahaha ..read the report of the former agerman abot of Antaiji Soto Zen centre about his experiences in a Rinzao monatery ... hahahaha

[cit]
Then in zazen you are always sleeping because you’re so tired. Everything is so surreal that you pass out the minute the bell strikes. But there’s always one person patrolling with a stick. And when you sleep, you get hammered on. Usually, it’s four strikes in the summer, and eight in the winter. Half on each shoulder. People take pride in how many of these sticks they can break. In sesshin, it could be five or six sticks they break.

For the people that get beaten it means that after a while, the shoulders swell up and the skin breaks and you start to bleed. When you bleed, it means they don’t hit you on the shoulders anymore, they hit you in the belly. You sit facing the room and the guy is hitting you in the belly like he’s playing baseball.

At first, I thought this can’t be real. It was like some crazy movie. But after six months, I was still alive – surprised but happy to be alive. It was an experience that was completely new to me because I was always a melancholic depressive when I was young. I was like, why did my mother have me? How much less suffering would it have been if she had aborted me when I was born?

After six months at that place, I realised it is actually a miracle that I am still alive. Wow it is great; there’s the sun out there and I can breath. I have to ask my senpai each day if I can take a pee but, at the end of the day, I can even take a pee here. Isn’t that wonderful?
[cit]

@ Sat 64

The whole story:
https://antaiji.org/en/essays/1-13/

Zen is the Japanese interpretation of the Chinese Chan ... It is in their culture to go to extremes, in whatever they do.
It is doubtfull if people outside Japan get the gist of zen.

Zen is in and out japanese culture like Bhakti is typical Indian.
We do not have these things in our culture to practice them properly.
We are calvinist christians

Hi um. Interesting, I am a student of Chan and have to say that it only seems like extremes for anyone entrenched in western type meditation.
Chan was introduced by Chen Yen and uses silent elimination and koans.
It easily transfers to the west - but perhaps difficult if one is mentally conditioned in the Christian traditions.

Um. Sorry, should be illumination and Sheng Yen.

@ Ron E.

What I wanted to convey was that after Buddhism was introduced in China as Chan, it was not copied so to say but complete change or adapted to the Japanese culture..

It has been a pleasure to read about the two former abots at Antaiji Monastery, Uchiyama and Sawaki, an approach to zen brought down to is very essence ..just sit to sit.

What writers on Chan could you recommend?

@ Ron E.

By the way Uchiyama and also his German successor Mungo wrote in great detail about the, i believe, two schools in China, related to zen but I did not pay much attention to that story ..it is two directions, one using koans and the other not.

@um….you nailed it like a Bull’s Eye on the Target about us Westerners, when you wrote,….” We do not have these things in our culture to practice them properly.
We are calvinist christians”.

I was already a Member of the Christian Elect, when I came to the Sant Mat Path, but wasn’t sure I was Marked by any Sant Mat Master, until I was accepted by Charan Singh and initiated.

I never felt marked by Thakar, as I didn’t take any Vows to be initiated by him, or asked for any, by him, other than being asked to Tithe my wealth to him,…AFTER I was initiated, of which I obviously ignored.

Charan never asked me for any thing, other than to do my best to follow the Sant Mat Path in the Application forms we all filled out and accepted, before being considered and accepted for Initiation, which included all of our warts, blemishes and dirty laundry we admitted to .

Which after giving nothing to Charan, while receiving his All,…..is why I have been extremely honest, and comfortable about considering my self as a Member of The Marked Elect,….which I proudly , and unashamedly mention in many of my blog comments.

WE Are Very few,…among the many, and shrinking in numbers rapidly, in this present Woke culture of depravity and immoralities.

The Apostle Paul clearly , in his New Testament Epistles, laid out what John Calvin understood, and grabbed, and presented as Calvinism, the Doctrine of Predestination, Total depravity of man, and the difference between Members of The Elect,….and members of the Reprobate losers.

I even unwrap it further, and more clearly, using Bible Verses only, in the early section of my blog, in my Master’s Degree Theses.

As it says in the Christian Hymn,…..”Amazing Grace, How Sweet The Sound,…..I Once Was Lost, But Now I’m Found”.

I know how it feels, and is how I felt totally lost as a Reprobate, before my Born Again experience in April 1977, when I became a Member of The Elect, then Marked in Feb. 1990 by Charan, which sealed my Destiny.

You are the Shrink who should take careful notice and document Testimonies similar to mine, to share with those you encounter who feel as I did as a lost Reprobate. Then, Link them to my Blog to discover how to be set free!

😇

Jim Sutherland

Um. I'd reckon that Zen teacher Steve Hagen's books 'Buddhism is Not What You Think' and Buddhism Plain and Simple' are good reads. He explains the present moment or 'Just This' quite well. Also, Rebecca Li has a good book out on Silent illumination.

@ Ron.E
Thank you

Years ago I found a Chan book by the name of:
"The chan Handbook 1"
The learners guide to meditation.
by:
Chan Master YongHua

Maybe it were the pictures in the book, or my projections upon them, that made me lay the book aside. It made a cultish iimpression ..maybe right so mayne not.

@ Jim S.

It has made a lasting impression on me when the late MCS, with a forceful voice made A clear to an Indian Gentleman in the audience of the guesthouse, they had was NOT to supposed to educated his children as and into Sant Mat

I never suggested anybody to follow a spiritual practice and will not do it in the future.
I was not asked to be a missionary ...neither to become a coffee drinker ...hahaha

@ Jim S.

coincidence?

Answering the Hon. Ron. E., , I leafed through the book I mentioned to him. On Page 219 I says:

Question:
How can I teach my son Chan?
I got so much out of meditation practice. How can I teach my son to meditate and practice Buddhism in general?

Aswer [Chan Master YongHua]

STOP!

Do not try to teach ypur son to meditate, or about Buddism

Please leave him alone.

This is a rather common mistake that most people make.

You should not try to teach others unless they ask you. Those who try to "concert"others to their faith are making a bad name for their faith. Live and let live. Respect others, including their beliefs or lack thereof.

I do not believe in converting others to Buddhism. Let them decide for themselves. I'd rather concentrate on being a good, decent and moral being. If our loved ones see that we are winners, they too would like to be as us There is no need to try to force our way on others.

>>End quotation.<<

Missionary tendencies are typical christian ..as I said there are Christian Satsangis, both Rk and Protestant style and all other religions as well ..they are bound to that cultural identification.

You never hear much about female Buddhas. What's up with that? Do they stay home raising the kids and cooking while their Buddha husbands are off to work?

Umami. Actually according to Zen/ Chan, we are all Buddha's. Zen/Chan practice is to help recognize that.
Many Buddha statues we see are androgynous figures. A little research will come up with many
Prominent women in Buddhism.

@um,….regarding Missionaries, we are all Missionaries, of various persuasions, including YOU!

Here is a short 9 minute podcast I had just posted on my blog that addresses your comment that we should leave each other alone, and not share our beliefs, I could answer that on my blog. In fact, I did already, years ago. He ha

https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/5d6e49ca-d6a5-4ab0-9038-2ea0dcdd206d/audio

Jim Sutherland

@ Jim S.

To think that one has the key to another persons happiness and it is ones mission in life to open that door to happiness for that person, is not a thought I allowed ever to linger in my mind,

Nor the tree, nor the crow needs anybody to live their life and so is the human.
Whatever that is alive is born with inborn tools to live that life without the help of anybody else.

I do not need to teach, or show anybody what it means to be human...they all know.

What is encouraging with regard to meditation is that various branches of science are broadly supportive of the practice. From my point of view, Zen/Chan (among other Buddhist schools) have a science basis if only in philosophy and psychology.

From the perspective of a naturalist, Taoism and Buddhism suited my temperament rather than the Abrahamic teachings. Zen in particular presented a way of enquiry into one's self without the need for beliefs - which is becoming more suited to many in the west.

There is room on this Earth for all approaches without the need to wage wars about them and really, in the name of compassion and tolerance to not look down on the multitude of different mind sets.

#um,….Oops! My 9 minute podcast obviously was not done yet, when I posted the link. It’s now 24 minutes. But it really addresses some of your prior comments.

If Members here don’t like my podcasts, then Osho and Brian will have to share my Karma for either the positive, or negative , they will have on listeners that listen to them.

They introduced me to NotebookLM. I never had heard of it before, and never had a morsel of thought , or desire in my old decrypted mind to use it, or even figure out how.

But through trial and error, and perseverance, I now have a small number of my podcasts in my Notebook Library.

Watching how Osho is growing on YouTube with his Oneness Videos, I might exercise my crusted brain a little further, and open a YouTube account as Osho has, and post my Audio postcasts an YouTube, as Osho did with one of mine where I challenged Advaita.

It’s only a thought form, presently, before I wake up senile, with out notice. But every action starts with a thought.

Jim Sutherland

umami, you wrote,….” You never hear much about female Buddhas. What's up with that? Do they stay home raising the kids and cooking while their Buddha husbands are off to work?”

When I was in Bhutan and Tibet, visiting Monks and Nuns, and meditating, I was told that in order for Nuns to be liberated , and become Monks and Lamas, they would need to be first, reincarnated as Males.

My Wife had just started to be interested in Buddhism, …..but that’s when she quickly abandoned lookin g any further in to Buddhism Teachings.

Jim Sutherland

@ Ron E.

I don't know how to phrase it properly but since I "woke up in the cinema" I often, while walking outdoors, have the feeling that humans can but need not to meditate or folow any practice.

While walking I ask myself, or try to find an answer to the question ..."How came the habit of meditation into existence"

As far as now, I believe that any form of manipulation of the body, of which m,meditation is just an expression, came in reaction to those that had spontaneous experiences and talked about it. ...Those that had these spontaneous experiences, themselves never practiced anything ... their brains reacted to this or that TRAUMA, be it from the body or the mind in terms of thoughts and feelings.

So it seems to me that OTHERS wanted to have what was told to them, without having the slightest clue of what that was ..they just had the words.

That is the reason why I now and then write about starting the search inside and figuring out what is the source of that desire to meditate, instead of discussing teachers and teachings.

Before 1970, just to set a date, nobody knew even the word meditation..meditation sometimes appears to me as something that is put in the market as a product for some to gain wealth of sorts.

They come with narratives that explains the need for meditation but if I focus on myself I never could find a reason why I should...people are born with a desire to eat etc but not with a desire to meditate.

@ Jim S.

Years ago, to a youth that had lost his way in life and that wanted to turn me into an lifebuoy of sorts, i said ...look I am not a savior, I am not Christ, I have enough problems to deal with my own life, I have not the power to carry you on my back.

He used his intellect and emotional aggression to corner me and force me to accept that role but had to leave me empty handed ...it reminds me of that beautiful story in Rumi's Masnawi about a father walking with his son and a donkey ...

Here is one of the many versions of the storry
https://sites.pitt.edu/~dash/type1215.html

um. it has been said that as you walk the path to realsation, it broadens until there is no path to follow. But, perhaps one has to start walking initially.

And meditation, well, there probably is no desire to meditate initially (which is a good thing). After all, with a normal interest and curiosity in life maybe meditation arises naturally.

Nice chat - bedtime now.

@um,….I am no one’s Savior either, and never wanted to be. But I feel obligated to at least, lead others, to the Savior I found, when ever given the chance, or planting a seed now and then, in possible fertile ground that has chances of producing a bountiful Harvest. But it’s all I have ever been able to do.

It’s like leading a horse to water, but we can’t force the horse to drink. Only thirsty houses will drink, as only the Marked Elect will respond to the Call of the Savior,

As for when and where, Meditation first started, just search Bible Verses with the word Meditate. It becomes obvious of WHO meditation is directed at, and why it’s done.

@ Ron E.

Having read your soft spoken words several times, they do ring different bells.

The idea of a path broadening is appealing but I cannot bypass the word "realisation". without asking myself ..what is there to realize? ...and gone is the path.

The same is with the option of meditation arising naturally. It is also appealing and attractive but then I stumble over my own concept of meditation as an artificial, more or less formalize manipulation of the body/brain..As a youth I loved to listen to the "white noise" of a large air compressor in our basement and hear upon the rim of the sound all sorts of funny harmonies. These sounds created goose skin upon which I would enter what I would call a deep, very refreshing sleep. With some fantasy, that could be labeled as natural meditation ..I do not know ..could be.

@ Jim S

For you, with your background that is probably the right thing to do. You have that faith and conviction about life that allows you to act as you do.

Personally what ever I "know" about the purpose of life etc, is all a matter of "hearsay"

But even If I had that inner conviction as to where to go and how, I wonder if I would tell others. Yes, of course if somebody would ask, I would answer what I was up to and even with pleasure but more than that I cannot imagine myself doing.

@ Jim S

About saviors
https://www.africanstorybook.org/reader.php?id=31947

The version In Rumi's Masnawi ends much more funnier ... the father and the son decided to carry the donkey together.

So I am not a donkey nor willing or able to carry one. and the donkey is not made to carry me ...that is what we as humans made him do.

@um,….Smart Donkey submit to carrying their Masters,,,

John 12:12-15
“The next day the large crowd that had come to the feast heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem. So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!” And Jesus found a young donkey and sat on it, just as it is written, “Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, your king is coming, sitting on a donkey's colt!”

More donkey stories! When the donkey carrying your expectations arrives at the door - leave the donkey outside. (a Sufi tale).

My podcast on the Christian Tongues Controversy, that was in my Doctoral Theses.

https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/3053891c-124c-44aa-bce5-4582b0030e0e/audio

Jim Sutherland

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