Why the mystical notion of a "sound current" is at odds with science

I used to belong to an India-based religious organization, Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), whose teachings centered on the notion of shabd, or sound current -- considered to be the audible voice of God, being an all-pervading conscious energy that created and sustains the cosmos, including our physical universe.

Believing in this, my first book was called God's Whisper, Creation's Thunder: Echoes of Ultimate Reality in the New Physics. (In the shorter and simpler version that I published after the original book went out of print, I changed the subtitle to Echoes of Spiritual Reality in the New Physics, which makes more sense.)

In the course of reading theoretical physicist Matt Strassler's book, Waves in an Impossible Sea: How Everyday Life Emerges from the Cosmic Ocean, I've gotten some insights that point to why I came to believe that the sound current is an intriguing idea, but almost certainly no more than that. Here's how Strassler starts off an "Elementary Fields" chapter. 

In this chapter, we make a first attempt to grasp how the cosmos works, trying to understand its fields using analogies with the ordinary fields of the last chapter. As we proceed, we will be retracing steps taken by generations of physicists over the last century and a half. Right from the start, our approach will encounter problems, and the further we go, the worse the difficulties will become.

I tell you this now so that you won't be expecting a moment of sudden enlightenment. This chapter will end ambiguously, and we will escape to firmer ground only thereafter. 

But we have to travel this route. To fathom our astonishing universe requires a deep appreciation of why the last century's greatest scientific minds have failed to make sense of it, and why it could justifiably be called "an impossible sea."

The basic message of the last chapter is that an ordinary field represents a property of an ordinary medium. In the chapter before that, we encountered the idea of a medium in the context of waves: air as the medium for sound waves, rock as the medium for seismic waves, and so on. Now we want to put this triad of concepts -- medium, field, and wave -- together. 

We've largely established how the members of our first triad, air, wind, and sound, are related to one another. Wind is the flow of air. Sound waves are ripples in air. Air is the medium for sound waves in particular and for the wind more broadly.

Now, an interesting thing is that the ordinary fields are quite different from the elementary fields. Elementary fields include electromagnetism and gravity. They aren't localized like sound. They are present everywhere in the universe. 

And with the exception of gravity, science hasn't been able to identify a medium in which the elementary fields reside. After the discovery that light was a manifestation of the electromagnetic field, scientists of that time assumed that just as sound requires the medium of air (there's no sound in a vacuum), light must require a medium that they called luminiferous aether. 

Problem was, experiments showed no evidence of it. Eventually it was determined that waves in the electromagnetism field only require empty space to propagate. Meaning they move at the speed of light through nothing. Well, not exactly nothing, since Einstein proved that gravity is the warping of space, or space-time, so somehow the nothing of empty space is able to warp under the influence of mass. 

Turning to the sound current, which is theorized to manifest as divine sound and light that can be perceived by subtle senses of the soul, this means that it isn't really a problem scientifically that the "wave" of the sound current lacks a medium through which it propagates. Waves of electromagnetism do just fine moving through empty space. 

A much bigger problem for those who, like me, sought to blend ancient mysticism with modern science, is that there's no evidence that the sound current exists -- which can only be known through its effects. For all fields are known through their effects. Drop a spoon and the effect of gravity is evident. Flip a light switch and the effect of electromagnetism is evident.

Where's the effect of the sound current, or shabd, other than in the mind of someone who believes in it? If the only place the sound current manifests is in the brain of those who believe it exists, this is no different than fairies being only as real as a belief. 

One would think that the divine power that supposedly brought our universe into being, and continues to sustain it, would have some effects beyond the forces known to science: gravity, electromagnetism, the weak and strong forces.

Again, there's not really a problem with the sound current lacking a medium, but not manifesting any effects is a huge problem -- at least for those of us who want our spirituality to be founded in objective reality, not subjective belief.

If anyone who believes in the sound current can demonstrate some provable effects of it in the physical world, I look forward to reading your comment on this post that contains such evidence. But I'm deeply skeptical that anyone can do this. 

Comments

[Ron E.]

I’m afraid I boringly attribute many mystical interpretations to very natural causes. For example, people who hear sounds, when there is no physical cause could well be experiencing what is known as ‘auditory hallucinations’ and even ‘musical ear syndrome’. I had this after a Sufi retreat many years ago when driving home, I could hear what sounded like a choir singing one long note. I stopped the car and got out to see if the sound was connected to the humming of the car engine. No, the singing was coming from everywhere – the trees, the grass, the field of crops, everywhere – and it was quite pleasant.

For me it had dissolved by the next day. Apparently, it is a quite common condition and can sometimes be induced through meditation. As my retreat include Sufi musical meditation, I was not overly surprised. The point being that such sounds are quite natural and can occur under many conditions but to jump to a mystical or divine interpretation is unnecessary.

As an aside and interestingly, later in life I became aware of a high-pitched buzzing together with a base droning. I even searched the house trying to locate the source. It was later that I realised I was suffering from tinnitus – and much later on a realisation of subtly progressive deafness.

[Sundram Saini]

Hi Mr brian
Radha Soami ji
I am reading your post from two three years .
Recently I came to know you was spent a long period with RSSB

My belief is this if some one from our family member will have the different openion or might some change in his mind , definitely something wrong happened and need to clear.

You were on the right path and it is my believe one day you will back hazur maharaj ji will not left your hand

reason behind this he loves us and support us at every instance /circumance which I am mentioning with my experience /my father experience Baba ji always spoken ,malik/God has forgiveness. He will not judge us . This is true If he will judge us we have no other place .
My family is associated with RSSB from 50 years and I am now 49 years old and going to RSSB from my childhood. I know the some of satsangi which have an inner experienced and with strong bound with their master even Hazur Maharaj and Baba ji. My request to you , please spent time in meditation as you get the direction during iniation definitely door will opened one day and you will get your master over there.
I respect you and deeply want you will get back and reach you true home with blessing of Baba ji.

If any you want to more discussion, your welcome

Radha Soami ji Sundram Saini

[Kranvir]

@sundram
Domt take this personally,, but you are totaly deluded and have become so completely brainwashed that you cannot see the truth of your bizarre loyalty over a fraudulent crook like gurinder singh dhillon - he only cares about himself. A miracle is needed for you to break that loyalty to a narcissist baba who you always give the benifit of the doubt. You will have to face the truth that someday. At the time of death , when all may be revealed, you will break down in tears having wasted this gift of life as a slave to a demonic cult. It's never too late you could still make better choices and live a life for yourself and your dear loved ones - you can still salvage some of it.

As for the shabad, this is nothing but the music of the pied piper , leading you back to the belly of the beast - you have been lied to. There is no salvation in any satanic meditation, but intead misery and pain and suffering. Gurinder singh dhillon, the Rssb path , and now jasdeep (the new crook in training) are all extensions of kaal will. Gurinder will soon be facing his karma.

[sant64]

"One would think that the divine power that supposedly brought our universe into being, and continues to sustain it, would have some effects beyond the forces known to science: gravity, electromagnetism, the weak and strong forces."

Why aren't gravity and electromagnetism enough? Enough proof that is? That's my question anyway.

But yes, it's fair to ask whether the experience of this inner sound is really a tuning-in to the primal vibration that pervades the universe. Or whether it's strictly a mental phenomenon.

Faqir Chand was very candid about having powerful shabd experiences. His conclusion was that
however profound these experiences, they didn't much alter his sense of being a limited self.

I confess I never had much experience of the shabd, though I did once hear the bell sound. It was rather amazed by it. I've also had a powerful "audition" (hearing spoken words) at a spiritual event, and this was even more amazing. Yet I can't say either experience changed me.

Because of that, I've always been skeptical about sant mat's promotional material on shabd. And there's an even bigger reason: If hearing shabd is so transformative and powerful....why isn't anyone talking about it?

When have you ever heard a satsangi tell you "Oh my gosh, the shabd is so sweet I spend hours listening to it every day, and it has completely quashed all my former sensual appetites just as Master said it would"?

In 40 years, I haven't heard from that anyone in any sant mat group. That's rather strange, given the hype about the sound.

Also, if shabd meditation is really the bomb RS says it is, you'd think people in other traditions would get on board with it. The Buddhists, the Hindus, anyone who meditates. But they aren't going for shabd yoga.

RS explains, "Oh they can't hear the *real* shabd unless they've been initiated by our perfect master."

My opinion is that the sound current meditation was a part of some schools of yoga, and that yogic technique was adopted by some North Indian religious sects, who assigned it supreme importance. And that it's fair to say that people get more out of believing in the sound current than they do actually listening to it.

[Truth Prevails]

@Sundram
I invite you to watch this video of Babaji from 2 mins into the video

https://youtu.be/tqursiwnFDs?si=RU54_ev-Mpe1wdgu

BabaJi says "You and God are NOT SEPARATE" and he clarifies "there will be NO MERGING"

He also said "You can never do it" when the questioner said he is trying to merge through meditation.

This is very significant. Babaji is saying "you are ALREADY there" and "You and God are ONE - you only have to SEE this - realize it"

This is so far away from what all the followers are trying to do.

The he says "if you think of yourself as separate from God, end of story, no possibility.". This is very significant and turms your world upside down.
You cannot ask Brian to meditate after that because BabaJi is saying it's about realization - not about meditation or listening to the sound current.

Babaji goes on:

can the ray of light exist separately from the sun?

All we are seeking in a realization

i dont have to GO ANYWHERE
i just have to feel his presence

Be still and know that I am God

that is all meditating is about

go figure

[sant64]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background

As Wilson and Penzias discovered in 1964, the universe began with sound, and that same sound pervades everywhere. This isn't a theory, as radio telescopes empirically confirm this sound.

Science confirms that sound pervades the universe. So that's indeed a confirmed effect. But again, whether this sound is what's heard by meditators is a matter of speculation.

Anyway, I look forward to the next rollicking discussion.

[Just Asking]

@truth Prevails
",,,This is so far away from what all the followers are trying to do."

The followers are doing what they are told to do during initiation.
Perhaps RSSB should change initiation instructions? Or maybe, just not have a secret initiation?
No need to abstain from meat and alcohol.

[Appreciative Reader]

"Why aren't gravity and electromagnetism enough? Enough proof that is? That's my question anyway."

Short answer, aimed at those that might sincerely find themselves asking this question for other than performative reasons (because the question itself, while elementary, is valid enough): Occam's Razor.

Slightly longer discussion:
Einstein's take on gravity was valid because of two reasons: (a) First, it was able to better explain such (plantary/celestial) observations as Newton, et al wasn't adequately able to; and (b) It had predictive power, that is, it gave us predictions that other extant theories did not, and that were subsequently borne out by observation and experimentation.
That isn't the case here, with Shabd, as far as I know. Should Shabd “theory” be able to adequately explain observations that current physics struggles with, and further if it is able to provide predictions that current physics doesn't, then that will be grounds for science to take it very seriously. And if subsequently those predictions were actually borne out by observation and experimentation, then it would be accepted as fully valid. But of course, none of that has happened, so all it amounts to is just random, unsupported speculation.

----------

"But yes, it's fair to ask whether the experience of this inner sound is really a tuning-in to the primal vibration that pervades the universe. "

No, it isn't. Because, see above.

(That is, anything at all fair to ask, anything at all is fair to spiral off into random speculation about. But this, above, is not a remotely serious question, at all. Because, see above.)

----------

“whether this sound is what's heard by meditators is a matter of speculation.”

Haha, no, to suggest, no matter how vaguely, the remotest connection of CMB with any “sound” heard during meditation, is absurd. Sure, it is a matter of speculation, but only in the sense that it can be equally well be a matter of speculation whether CMB amounts to the reverberations of my invisible pet dragon, that lives in my garage, farting.

[um]

@ Truth Prevails

How do you make an born blind person understand that he is blind?

[7^7^7 with LOVE]

Ron
Tinnitis is often painful
I guess U still have it
If on the right side try mentally to push it to the middle

I thought like You
next found out it was MaharaJi s Sound
ans applied his words on it
Next both were SWILLING which is NO Pitch or Volume change but a Great Feel of LOVE for Him

You can do it and even tangibly BR that Sound and Him
24/7
and more I cannot tell

7^7^7

[7.77]

Sundram Radha Soami

They ask proof here

You cannot ask but
U are in India where most hear the Sound

U can video their faces just after Dhyan - Darshan, outside the edge

7

[Tej]

@Truth Prevails,

Thanks for sharing this particular Q&A with GSD, a very insightful session.

[Ron E.]

No thanks 777. My tinnitis doesn't bother me, it's just there - quite naturally. Like life generally, it's what's happening in the moment - no need to allocate it to imaginary sources.
Thanks anyway.

[Sundram Saini]

@777 Radha Soami ji and
Rest All to Radha soami ji

[Truth Prevails]

@um

you asked
"How do you make an born blind person understand that he is blind?"

I don't understand the context of that question in relation to what I wrote.

can you clarify? are you referring to RSSB initiates?

[um]

@ Truth prevails

The things you wrote have to be experienced in order to be understood.

[October]

Evidence need Realisation which you lack unfortunately.
If you want to move beyond current spiritual quotient of yours,
Have reinitiation from present Master.

Your earlier imitation was null and void.

[um]

@ October

Who is that "You"???
and ...
What is a spiritual quotient?
And what do you mean with the first sentence?

[October]

You is Brian
Spiritual quotient is indicator of spiritual awakening.
Realisation means End of illusion.

[um]

@ October

Thank you.

How does realization relates to experience?
Experience of what?

[October]

Experience of Awakening

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100088730604054&mibextid=ZbWKwL

[Hunter Moon]

This explains so much more than RSSB ever did:
https://youtu.be/G8TIyoklEHg
We have all experienced these things.

[Sundram]

Radha Soami
My first post was for Mr Brian , i am not sure he was read the post or not i dnt t find his answer here ,
As my wish was that he will back if he forget the way or some illusion in his mind so that with discussion it will be cleared .

i read recent post of Mr Brian where he is saying for sewa of his wife .

This is the main teaching of RSSB , sewa can be done from any where to any one that person will be your family member , friends , relative or any one but it is required without any demand /favor of your self then it will considered as a sewa for this NO need to visit any RSSB center as per Baba Ji guiding to us and Hazur Maharaj Ji was Guiding us

But after reading the recent post i think their is some discussion required

@ Appreciative Reader

As per your post as required some scientific proofs

For your information this science begins from the point where physical science stop to work

@um

you asked
"How do you make an born blind person understand that he is blind?"

Ans: This path is of self experience, self realization no one can not step up or step down for someone else experience .

RS JI

[um]

@ Sundaram

"As my wish was that he will back if he forget the way or some illusion in his mind so that with discussion it will be cleared <<

Did the late MCS not state time and again for years at a stretch to the western audience visiting the Dera:

"it is all in his hands"
and
"Nobody is allowed to go that far astray that he cannot be brought back to the path"
and
He used often the metaphor of sheep in a herd, who were well advised to stay in or close to the herd, otherwise the dogs would be send after them

Are you one of these dogs ordered by the Shepherd to collect stray sheep?

[Q]

@um

What do you care about the late MCS? Since you have stated that you do not not what God or Love is how can you possibly know or even care what MCS taught. Clearly you missed it.

[um]

@ Q.

Well, well .. how to react not having had coffee.?!

If you had read the majority of my answers, relate to the late MCS, and digested what I wrote, you could have understood that I have "ears to hear and eyes to see"

But let me spell it out before you:

In my interactions with him, sitting in the audience, having private interviews and answering my questions by letter,, he was always kind, took his time and did his best to answer my questions and to solace me.

Many things that I have in mind these days, things that mean quite a lot to me, would never have been there if I had not listened to him, did my best to digest what he said.

So tell me how could I write or speak a bad word about him?

Due to him I came to look at human beings in a complete different way. Interacting with him has been better than an academical education in disciplines like psychology, etc.

I came also to understand the psychological ins and outs of walking ANY spiritual path, and the needed attributes. Unfortunately I do lack these attributes in an functional quantity and quality ....being love and devotion ... so much so dear friend that on an evening sketch many years ago where I had to figure as a patient, the suggestion was made that this patient needs ito be injected with vitamine D + L, devotion and love. All the while he was sittinbg in the audience at a distance of no more than 3 meters, biting his hand from laughter

Let me end with again stating the incident sitting before him and his secretary making it clear to me
THAT: the pull must come from within
AND
IF .........that pull is not there is NOTHING You [ I in this case] about it it

That Pull was never there.

Satisfied?!

[um]

@ Q

And Q. if you listen carefully to his questions and answer sessions, you could also understand that he never spoke about Sant Mat and certainly not about the inside affairs.

Do not grumble, it is just my personal understanding and trying to explain that to you. What he did is dealing with mental ins and outs of people that wanted to follow a spiritual path.

Most of what satsangis discuss among themselves about God, the master, the shabd, in short the teachings were and are just their own inventions, their own meaning and value that they attribute to the teachings .. they are empty and not related to him even if they cannot have enough of attributing their own views as being his's.

He had nothing to say, he never said a thing about the path if at all was his kind invitation .. please do you meditation. ...meaning, see for yourself, I cannot and will not show it to you, however much you beg. or even put emotional pressure on me ...This is what I make him say.

Sometime I think I had better ears to hear .. and was willing and able to HEAR what HE wanted to ttransfer.

[um]

@Q

I am quite aware my friend that ...I .... was the one that knocked at his door!

So against that deep, human understanding and willingness to accept responsibility for my own steps in life ..I have no issues with him, nor his successors

And I am also aware of the deep meaning of comparisons they make between knocking at their door and the door of the French Foreign Legion.

If you step over that tress hold their laws are to be obeyed, their teachings accepted. Nobody can have it in that compound THEIR way.

Inside, that compound nobody is interested in the motives that brought one to the path, they even go that far to say the idea you have that YOU are the one that knocked at the door is a false notion, an illusion

Unfortunately I came these things to understand AFTER asking for initiation. and I do wonder If I would do it again with the inside knowledge I do have now. ..after waking up in the cinema of life.

[October]

@um
If you don't mind, can I ask, What was your inner experience after initiation and what made you leave that path.

[um]

@

Well .. having gone that far I can as well answer that question of yours.

I perceived the initiation as an anti-climax, to be honest as boring.
Afterwards I never had any experience that even remotely looked like those described or discussed by others.

The last question is more complicated. I do not like to state that I left the path in the sense that I chose to ask for initiation.

What kept me going, with much pleasure was the company of the people I met and the work I did together with them.. Without going into detail I look back on that period with the same pleasure as I look back on my interactions with the teachings and its teacher. The community was in its infancy and it was a delight to have had the opportunity to participate in its development as we were asked to do.

By the way .. I happened to be alone with my partner when hundreds were brought before him and he chose which one he wanted to grant initiation and who not. Sitting a very close distance I could observe him,, the people that were individually brought before him and the effect his choice had on them etc. THAT has made a lasting impression on me even to this very day as it showed me many things about ..let us call it .. human behaviour .. it was realy impressive.

Slowly and slowly over time the focus shifted from what was to perceived and experience outside to my own inner and there I lost grip on it as there was nothing. I must say that the changes in the atmosphere after 1990 has accelerated the whole process.

It makes me laugh now and then, realizing that the farther I drift away from what there was in the beginning my understanding and appreciation of the path, is growing

These days I just accept things for what they are. and one can compare it with looking back on one's own infancy in enjoyable circumstances without having the desire to return to it.

P.S.
You probably have no idea how people can be a prisoner of their own thoughts about sant mat, taking what they think for the reality ... and that .. I must say is a painful experience..How much their cultural and social conditioning makes them believe things that are not there and no part of Sant Mat.

All these discussions about perfect masters, analyzing what they do etc is not telling anybody any truth but blinding themselves to see the truth about themselves, who and what THEY are as seeker, student disciple.

These are all just thoughts that are to be found in my head. They are not telling any truth to anybody about Sant Mat, its teachers or teachings.

It was and is just human observation. ..bird watching so to say ... hahahaha

[um]

@ October

Mybe tyhis helps

I can and sometime do talk hours about the interactions I had with the late MCS, what I learned from it and how much I appreciated it, appreciating to this very moment .. BUT ... that said I have no idea about him as master, whether he was one, how such a one should look like or behave.

Nobody has ever heard from that I said that another human being was a master, or that this or that human was not a master or a false master

I cannot stress this enough .. I can only speak about myself and for myself and take responsibility for it.

I never understood that satsangis go around discussing stating who is a master and who not ... let alone there statements about them being gods

writing it reminds me of an remark MCS made in reaction with respect of such behaviour by an american lady .... asking here ..Sister, have you seen all of them.

Brother the tone makes me shiver even to day and yet .. yet the whole audience was laughing their heqarts out.

[Trez]

The sound current is something Gurinder Singh Dhilion and the Radha Soami Cult preach endlessly

This without thinking tells us all that it can be and it can never be the "Truth" why, because this Baba and this Cult are based on the foundations of lies as we all know by now.
Gurinders reputation is exposed and riddiculed for us all to see now

Gurinder makes out that the 5 names are of God, but in truth its the Devil (kaal) Jyot Naranjan means the Light of Devil this is the first name of 5 the disciples are told to repeat in meditation.

So the fact are the facts.
It's kaals world and he created all religions So he could have our worship and be that God.

The Sound which reverberates is real, but it's the nature of kaal reverberating throughout his world, which he governs.

So these are the aspects of Kaal the devil
His nature is light and sound.

Lucifier the Light bearer.

There are so many books and scholars who have wrote about this. It's nothing new

All inner realms are created by kaal with his power of light and sound, and he gives the individual access there if they worship him and by how much. Then they are allowed to go higher and higher. After he sends the soul back to hell down here which we call earth.

The soul never gets freedom from kaals prison planet system but only merits of inner realms with worship and meditation to him in any religion as all roads lead to Rome. As Gurinders says , he knows this very well too

Sound and light are to be avoided if the soul ever wants salvation and its right, to go back home to God.

These baba are working for kaal so they and he can keep this hell hole running for them to enjoy themselves, while the rest of us suffer in pain with hunger, wars , crime , health, and the never ending list goes on...

The Devil is in the detail, take a closer look at the Sky out there tonight...he's there watching and hiding from us all, but if he's God, come on out baby

[DJ]

Max Planck, Nobel Prize winning German theoretical physicist said in 1944, "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent spirit [orig. geist]. This spirit is the matrix of all matter."

[Arun]

@Sundaram, one thing is sure. Mr GSD is a crook. He should have been in jail. But his political chamchagiri saved him so far. Thankyou.

[October]

@Trez
Concept of Kaal is where illusion stops.below it everything is non-existent if you look from Top.So Top drops lowest into this non-existence and stretches existence, as much as can be beared by Humans, into non-existence.
While coming down, he stops at a place where kaal resides and discover that Kaal is his bro and doing sh*t for Top only.

Otherwise How come we Are.

[Chiro]

@Brian. This may go some way to answering your question...maybe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHiGFCkXN1k&t=39s

[Appreciative Reader]

"@ Appreciative Reader (...). As per your post as required some scientific proofs (...) For your information this science begins from the point where physical science stop to work"

That's fair, Mr Sundaram. That is, no question of my agreeing, but it's not incoherent at least. Except for one thing: Why call it a "science" at all, in that case? (As in, "Science of Souls", or whatever is the term they use? How does that work, even at a figurative level?)

What is your understanding of what science is, and how does RSSB's thing apply to that, at any level, whether literal or figurative?

----------

(Not to bat down your comment dismissively! Just, some religions do make that claim, of being in some sense a science. And that makes no sense at all, except maybe just a wee bit when it comes to austere Theravad (or, hell, secular Buddhism --- which qualification isn't a cop out, because " secularizing" some forms of Buddhism does not upend its foundation, like it does with Christianity for instance.)

Anyhoo. My point is, most people who try to string along "science" to their pet woo, seem to be doing no more than trying to latch on to the prestige of science, and pretending to a factuality that's simply not true. So, yeah, good you brought this up. If you'd clearly answer what I asked, then that might clarify for you your error, and others' as well who share that view, that there's anything scientific about any of this, the RSSB thing. ...Or else it will correct *my* impression that "Science of the Soul" is just an empty marketing slogan. Either way, it's a win-win.)

[um]

@ AR

Behind the scenes, in the shadows an development is going on between scientists and and those having experiences that are not studied by science, to find ways to bridge that what keeps them separate from one another.

They are discussing issues relate to proof, knowledge, reality etc all issues that play a role in their field of interest.

Based on the work of Dr. Han de Wit a dutch psychologist, a new branch of psychology is developing by the name of one of his books by the title "Contemplative psychology".

In the USA it has found a listening ear in the NARADA institute

Anyway, I do not like the academical palaver in which the book is written, not to say a bad word about him and his book ...it is just not my cup of coffee anymore. n...BUT .. you might like the book as it addresses many of the issues you bring up here in this blog.

[Appreciative Reader]

Hey, um. *waves*

"Contemplative psychology", never heard of the term before. Very interesting concept, the mapping out of commonalities in the psychological aspect of contemplative practices, including meditation. ...I looked up the Wikipedia entry on that term, as well an abstract on the Sage Journals website (both via a quick Google search), and, haha, I agree, what came up seemed dense with jargon and thin on actual content! ...But again, like you, I won't rush to judgment, given that all I've looked up are two random references via a quick online search, nothing more. Absolutely, it looks like an interesting concept.

...Incidentally, as far as "bridging the gap between scientists and those having experiences not studied by science", as you put it, the answer is very simple: Simply turn on the spotlight of science onto those experiences. That's all it takes. Of course, that's easier said than done: because, first, it will require those who believe they have had such experiences to submit those experiences to be studied by science; and further, it will require scientists to interest themselves in that subject. ...But in principle, at any rate, it's simple enough, like I said. ...And to an extent, such studies are indeed happening, and some of those studies Brian has already covered here on his blog. The most recent such was his series of articles on the Elephant thing (haha, I forget the details of it, and I forget the name of the author, but the book was called Elephant something-or-the-other).

...Anyway, thanks for bringing up this contemplative psychology thing. I've bookmarked my search page on that term, so that I can check it out some more, later when I'm free.

[Appreciative Reader]

Yep, Metzinger. That was the name of the author. Excellent series of reviews Brian did here of his book. (The name of the book I can't remember, beyond the fact that there was an "Elephant" in it, in the name that is.)

[um]

@ .Incidentally, as far as "bridging the gap between scientists and those having experiences not studied by science", as you put it, the answer is very simple: Simply turn on the spotlight of science onto those experiences. That's all it takes.

No Ar ...nobody can study your thoughts your feelings, your experiences
THAT is exactly what they are addressing ...

Academical science can look at these things from the outside but not from the inside as their instruments are not mend to study these things

Dr. De wit at length tries to put his finger on these difficulties and explains why they are difficult and why we do need a bridge.

Maybe there is an PDF on the internet of his book.
Contemplative psychology.

I came to know about him in reading an book on Zhuang Zi by an Chinese scholar at one of the Dutch Universities.. A book in which she tries to show how we can benefit from the taoist philosipy

It would not surprise me if you would find pleasure in reading de Wit's book even if you do not agree with what he says but because he brings in the open what is the problem between the two sides.

Anyway

[Trez]

Sound and Light

Kaal the devil

Has used sound and light a way to decieve the soul to show the soul a realm of angelic sights and sounds inside.

Just like earth he has created it all to decieve the soul.

Inside there are many realms or levels as Gurinder Singh Dhilion say but its all created by Kaal and NOT God. The soul suffers forever

The Soul gets entrapped by kaal in these realms and never gets salvation.

This is the Devil and his Baba way of deciveving the innocent people of this world.

Keep away from theses so called God men as they are the evil Scum of this world

Gurinder Singh Dhillon has shown us all abit of his real reality and it shows a pandoras box of lies

[um]

@Trez

You can repeat your mantras ad libitum but they will forever remain meaningless for us as readers unless you tell us about what makes you write these things.

We know what you hold of MGSD but not why. You hide your self behind kaal, Lucifer etc but nobody has any idea what you are talking about.

I have the feeling you are afraid to disclose your background what makes you write as you do.

You always end with "your days are over" without ever telling what you mean with it
Your days and mine days and the days of all of us are over sooner or later, but that is probably not what you mean.