Gurus are like Trump: promising protection in return for absolute fealty

My wife found a Slate article by Steven Reisner on Apple News that she thought I'd be interested in, "The Deep Psychological Reason We're Stuck in This Feedback Loop With Donald Trump."

Reisner starts off by saying:

This is the third time Donald Trump has run for president as a major-party candidate, and yet, this cycle, the American electorate and the American press seem unable to fully comprehend the choice we are facing. It is not, as we’ve been trained to think, a contest between an extreme Republican and a middle-of-the-road Democrat.

There is still no language that conveys what the stakes really are. This election is not about politics; it’s much more basic—it’s about how the American determines what is real. Will the future of the country be based on evidence and law, or will government be twisted to reflect whatever Donald Trump tells us is true?

Reality. Truth. Ah, now we're getting into some really interesting philosophical territory, which I find just as interesting, if not more so, than the political side of Reisner's article. Of course, the two are related.

I'm perplexed by how almost half of American voters are willing to worship at what Reisner calls The Church of Trump. I can understand the appeal of ordinary religions. They promise salvation in exchange for faith in things unseen and unproven. 

But how is it that Trump commands such loyalty from his devotees? He lies, cheats, and steals. He cares only about himself, not the needs of others. He is frequently incoherent. He is always hateful and insulting. 

Reisner has a theory about the source of that loyalty. I tend to agree with it, though I never like it when an author appeals to Freud to make some point. Freud's ideas are outmoded in this era of modern psychology and neuroscience. 

However, I still think that the conclusions reached by Reisner make sense. People do seem to be willing to be loyal to a leader if that person promises to protect them. This applies to a guru who promises to protect his disciples from the ravages of death, and to a politician who promises to protect his followers from dangers while they're alive.

We are now at the eleventh hour. The Republicans, under the brilliant tutelage of Donald Trump, have become the Party of Sociopaths, and their aim is to relegate the Democrats to a Party of Hapless Neurotics. The fateful question is, will the Democrats and the mainstream press continue to waste their energy being shocked, or will they change their strategy?

It all boils down to this: How will the American voter assess what is true?

For Republicans (and Fox News), truth no longer has anything to do with facts, or even reality. Truth has returned to its pre-enlightenment meaning; or, as Merriam-Webster puts it, its archaic meaning: “Fidelity, constancy.” To be true, in the medieval Trumpian world, is to be loyal and steadfast. It’s no longer about reason or even belief: It’s about faith. Freud had a word for this kind of primitive faith; he called it illusion.

People crave a godlike father figure, Freud explained, especially when they feel threatened with the eruption of two dangers: “the crushingly superior force of nature … and the shortcomings of society which have made themselves painfully felt.”

In the 21st century, facing severe social inequities just when nature seems most out of control, America is in exactly that vulnerable state. And so it shouldn’t actually surprise us that nearly half the country’s voters have rallied around a sociopathic strongman who promises protection in return for absolute fealty.

Note that truth falls by the wayside in this bargain. Neither a guru nor a politician is able to show exactly how they will be able to protect their devotees from reality's vicissitudes. To their true believers, it really doesn't matter if there's no evidence that the leader's promises can be kept. 

The bargain is what's important. In exchange for unquestioning devotion, the believer is promised protection. This works for politicians like Donald Trump, and it works for gurus like the head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

Comments

[manjit]

Real news, real political insight. Should be mandatory viewing for all US citizens:

https://youtu.be/rXzXc3XK4V8?si=crqBiwufgrH1GAoX

[sant64]

Voters _shouldn't_ vote for the candidate that protects their interests in what's best for them and the country?

Of course, voters will vote for the candidate who they feel will work for their interests. You don't seem to grasp the obvious presupposition of democracy: People will differ on which party and which candidate is best. That is natural. That is normal. Instead, you're so convinced that your political opinions are correct that you conclude everyone who disagrees with you on political and religious issues is a fool.

I can hear you say "But my political views are based on facts!" Well, that's a matter of opinion.

A great many citizens aren't for open borders, inflation, demonization of SCOTUS Justices, presidents who ignore the rulings of SCOTUS, presidents who take part in rallies with unions against businesses, demand that the public buy electric vehicles, and favor letting men compete against women in athletic events. That's the O So shortlist, but the point is that there are a great many things that the Biden admin did that the public does not like.

Omg how tiresome to hear this all boiled down to the intellectually anemic "it's a church of Trump," and "how childish that some people vote for candidates who will protect them." The latter is really a joke, given that the Dems' entire campaign is based on cradle-to-grave protection.

The guru comparison is more apt. There's no denying that many satsangis view a relationship with a guru as a get-out-of samsara free card. But here again, you're making sweeping, one-sided conclusions (as per usual), ignoring the nuanced reasons for how spiritual leaders are a positive influence on many people's well-being.

[Kranvir]

There is truth and there is gurinder singh dhillon , the rssb cult, the complete opposite- lies. However, the fake ass baba disguises as good , in plane sight, yet is the dirty lying scum of the earth, rotten to the core. He is shabad made flesh of his master, his lord , his fake ass god which he represents and sells the brainwashing lies through the vehicle of rssb. He is selling the light of the devil, jot nirunjan ( the first mantra of rssb ) as the way back to his home which is their paradise, but your hell. Now you have his replacement, jasdeep, who has the right qualification for a rssb guru - a phd from cambridge university and business strategy works experience lol, all fake. Uncle gurinder and nephew jasdeep want to keep the rssb busness empire in the family. Gurinder singh dhillon has become the first ever guru to retire, while alive, so that he can hide in shame, and spend his billions, in a playboy single lifestyle. You are exposed, a liar, and a fraud gurinder.

[manjit]

Wow... even the BBC is beginning to report the truth from Ukraine and stating what many of us thought was obvious, and conspicuously absent from the Western military industrial complex's response to Russia's invasion as led by Biden's regime, right from the start:

"But across Ukraine’s south and east, we find a growing number of people who want the war to end immediately, and see a Donald Trump presidency as the best chance of bringing respite.

We spoke to many of these people around the embattled eastern town of Pokrovsk, where Russian forces are inching closer.

There’s a feeling here that Ukraine should have negotiated at the beginning of the full-scale invasion, to prevent the death and destruction they’ve seen since.

Both sides engaged in talks in those early months of 2022. But evidence of alleged Russian war crimes halted attempts at diplomacy, and strengthened Ukraine’s resolve to fight on.

“Death is not worth territory,” as one woman put it. “We have to stop this war, and Trump is the person who knows how to do that.”"
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr5m6d6l7e2o

[Appreciative Reader]

That article, that you linked, made for interesting reading. Agreed, Trump is, without the slightest shadow of a doubt, a true sociopath. Also true, many people, who do clearly see how dysfunctional Trump is, and how dangerous --- even those that *don't* support him --- often don't realize the nature and extent of his sociopathy. ...And agreed further, this difficulty in accepting what stares one in the face does end up sounding just a tad neurotic.

I keep asking myself, who exactly *are* these people, these legions that continue to support Trump even now, in such large numbers that the election is poised on this absurd razor's edge right now? (Absurd, given the kind of creature this Trump person is, I mean.)

I'd say that those that support Trump today necessarily fall in one of these categories:

1. The vile: those that are themselves racist, sexist, classist, religious bigots, and see in Trump the means to further these vile values they hold.

2. The opportunists: those who directly expect to profit by riding on Trump's coattails. (Vance, for instance, who has wits enough to denounce Trump for the lowlife he is; but eventually does what will profit him personally. As well as lesser folks, opportunists not quite as high up the hierarchy as Vance.)

3. The stupid and the ignorant. And the misinformed/disinformed. People who aren't able to see what's in plain sight. Or who lack the wits, or the application of those wits, to clearly join 2 and 2 together.

4. The unthinking tribalists. The hidebound GOP supporters, who support "their" party, just because, and no matter what. Which is weird, but it's a thing.

...Let's hope sanity prevails, and Trump is ejected forever from all pretensions to power. Fingers crossed.

[um]

>> I keep asking myself, who exactly *are* these people, ....<<

Your fellow human beings, people like you and me.

Humans, based upon they are wired, can only think about anything, relative to their survival.

In order to make a decision they have to transform, things that are beyond their power, grasp, understanding, etc to their own level. ...what is in it for me, how does it affect my life etc.

The situation as they feel they are living in, was not caused or created by Mr. Trump. but by previous "cat clean" politicians ...so let us give him a chance.

They do not look at him as a person, but focus on his message ...old is fault

In Europe too people have enough of these "cat clean" politicians that make you sign smilingly your own death sentence.

The ineffectual elite has catered for themselves after the WWII and did not invest in the common man that was just there to work for them, to make their dreams come true, dreams that were only profitable for the schooled elite.

Farmers know that you have to look at your soil and the welfare of your cattle, if you want to prosper.

The intelectal elite were not that CLEVER. after all.

[Appreciative Reader]

"Your fellow human beings, people like you and me."

Sure, they're human. Obviously. What on earth else would they be, baboons?
That's stating the completely obvious. Humans, sure; but of those four types.

Sure, there's underlying unmet causes, sometimes. But why turn to conmen and charlatans, whether politicians or religious or "spiritual", who promise succor but don't actually deliver? Because, I submit, their dupes and supporters are of one of those four categories.

[Appreciative Reader]

"Farmers know that you have to look at your soil and the welfare of your cattle, if you want to prosper."

The question, as has been stated clearly more than once in the past, and as usual been conveniently ignored from behind the "tree", is why farmers sometimes turn to charlatans who promise to set right the soil quality, and set right their love lives, and cure baldness, and elongate sexual organs, and any number of tall promises: but don't actually deliver.

The question is, why do farmers turn to voodoo claimants in churches, and conmen in golf resorts, who are out only to line their own pockets and will do nothing for the soil or the farmers, other than promise away?

Because, I submit, there dupes and supporters are of one of those categories.

[Appreciative Reader]

Case in point: clear demo: the genocide horror in the ME. The issue is real. But how the fuck does that translate into support for Trump?

We've two samples right here. One is of the tribalist category, merely latching on opportunistically onto the issue, and engaging, per usual, in mindless propaganda. ...And the other is one that has sincerely seen and been affected by the underlying issue itself, but has then been misled by right wing propaganda to de facto support Trump. And, when the complete incoherence of their position --- " Dead babies, therefore go Trump!" --- is VERY clearly spelled out, lacks the integrity to admit their error, and the strength to correct their mistake, and instead keeps dramaqueening over the dead babies and, when pushed to a corner, actually lying about their de facto support for Trump.

Who are these people, is the question. Who are they, that keep in business charlatans in orange paint and in priestly garb?

...And of course, the result of the election will not answer that question. In this specific context, all it will amount to is a fallacious argumentum ad populam. In either direction, all it is is a test of how many the charlatan has on his side, and nothing else. The question remains: Why on earth are these "humans", these " farmers", these dead-baby-lamenters, on his side?

Not just Trump. Also, other politicians in other geographies. India, for instance. Not Russia, not China, not NK: there the answer is more obvious: Navalny is why, Tiannanmen Square is why. It's too late for individuals to make a difference, although a desperate collective effort just might. ...But yeah, Trump. Why do people willingly genuflect to this transparently dishonest and transparently vile conman, is the question. ...And the answer, I tentatively suggest, is those four categories.

[um]

>> That's stating the completely obvious. Humans, sure; but of those four types.<<

Maybe this helps.

In the interaction between the object of choice and those that make the choice, one can focus on one or the other or both.

In the answer I gave I focused on the possible motivations of those that have to make a choice and I have tried to explain that in making that choice their personal interests are paramount.

IF there is nobody around that according you has the ability to safe you from an eminent disaster you will grab that hand even if you know, his motives are not your interests.

Mrs. Harris represents for them the "cat clean" intellectual elite that has failed in the past to prevent that disaster.

Otherwise one can look at the object of choice.

One can look at the voters and at those to vote for.

I focus on the voters and search for their motivations in the darkness of their houses where the keys for their motivation are to be found.

THEY are the owners of their motivation not anybody else.
THEY are not interested in the person but in the goods they are after

If the cat clean intellectual elite had not neglected the interests of the common man, nobody would chose for MR. Trump

Focusing on Trump is a diversionary maneuver

[um]

>> Why do people willingly genuflect to this transparently dishonest and transparently vile conman, is the question. ...And the answer, I tentatively suggest, is those four categories. <<

Things, people are also "things", are what they are
seldom what they look like
let alone how they are seen, made seen or labeled.

In the bible is that parable of the sower.
The parable speaks of the relation between the sower, the seed and the soil as all interrelated.

There are always, humans around that have the mindset of dictators etc but in order to become and dictator, the cultural, social and psychological circumstances must be optimal for such a person to become one, become to fruition.

P.S.
It is a distortion of reality to make the voters for Trump seen as blind, unable to see the truth etc. ...

As in marriage, humans are married to their desires expectations and seek a person that is able to fulfill these desires, expectations etc. If the person does not deliver, the pulling and pushing begins and if that does not help, they will divorce.

In voting the same mechanism is at work ..people are after their own interests and will chose that candidate that according their calculation will deliver what they are after for themselves. etc etc.

[um]

And ...

Just have a look around in the USA .. where what wealth is centered, and enjoyed by whom

Ponder how that [huge] difference came to be. and who where the responsible politicians.

In the past I have put it here time and again conversing with Mr. Tepper ..the evil of wealth.
Day in day out by means of the media the masses are "forced" to look upon the wealth, ALL wealth, material, mental and even spiritual, being in the hands of a small elite.
That by it self is not the problem as it has been always the social reality of humanity.
So it is not the possession of that wealth that creates the problem perse but the SUGGESTION that in order to live a live a decent human life this wealth is needed and it will never be in their hands as ..they do not DESERVE it for this or that reason.

The intellectual elite have brainwashed the masses to make them believe, that THEIR way is the only way ...they look down upon everything and everybody but themselves.

They are like the scribes, the theologians, the intellectuals that stole the truth from the common man ....Christ spoke to the common man, being convinced they could process his words and benefit from them and the intellectual indoctrinated them later making them believe that THEY were needed to understand his words, that they did understand his words ... but they lack the faith that is needed, faith that was the wealth of the common man.

[Appreciative Reader]

I’m sorry, um, but you’re simply not making sense. If it is the wealthy elite who the people are disillusioned by, then why does a large section of them turn to Trump the billionaire, to Trump who is not even self-made rich but who has inherited wealth, to Trump who is the epitome of the crooked rich man? That is the question that cries out to be answered. Why are the people falling for the empty promises and lies of a proven crook? Why are so many so gullible, and how is it that they’re getting gulled into such complete unthinking spineless submission by this conman? That is the question that cries out for an answer. And that is the question that I’ve tried to address.

Here’s what you say: “THEY are not interested in the person but in the goods they are after.” And you say further: “IF there is nobody around that according you has the ability to safe you from an eminent disaster you will grab that hand even if you know, his motives are not your interests.” …Well, my point is, this “snake oil seller”, as you often phrase it yourself, is selling EMPTY promises. He has not, unlike what you suggest, the intent or ability to actually save anyone from anything --- other than maybe saving the vile and the bigoted for awhile, from the consequences of their vileness and bigotry catching up with them. His “promises” are often so vague as to be meaningless, and in any case, are transparent hoaxes, completely transparent lies. (I gave you one specific example, the ongoing Israeli carnage.) …So that, contrary to what you suggest, there is nothing actually to offset his many very remarkable negatives.

You do understand what I’m saying, don’t you? Because, per usual, you seem to be repeating some things that have already been addressed very clearly, and mixing that up with some apparently random observations. For instance, why on earth that reference to what some schizophrenic character from an old book of fairy tales --- that would be Jesus Harold Christ --- was depicted as saying there; and why bring in this matter of the blind “faith” of the ignorant and the superstitious into this? That seems unconnected with anything we spoke of here.

…Although… eh, right, the tree thing, right?! Haha, here I am, “arguing” with the tree, yet again!! …Heh, I *have* caught myself, just now, even if just a bit late!

…Heh, yes, I’ll take this as my cue to lighten up! …Yeah, no sense getting so very earnest and serious about any of this, that one cannot let go of it and relax and smile a bit, and exchange some random words just for the heck of it, and sans any underlying meaning or agenda to this brief exchange beyond just that smile.

Cheers, um

[um]

@ AR

As an observer I am by nature interested in what humans do, write, say, produce etc and also do my best to understand WHY they do so, what motivates them.

Personal I am not interested in leaders, but in reactions of people dealing with them.
They, the consumers, are far more interesting as they are in a way my "teachers". From them there is so much more to learn about the human psyche than from characters as Mr. Trump ... their choices are like the bird in the coal mine

You look at Trump in trying to understand why people chose for him and I look at them, the people and try to figure out what moves them.

Keys are in the house Ar not in the street and certainly not in MR. trumps hands if one wants to understand how the common people vote.

[Appreciative Reader]

"You look at Trump in trying to understand why people chose for him and I look at them, the people and try to figure out what moves them.

Keys are in the house Ar not in the street and certainly not in MR. trumps hands if one wants to understand how the common people vote."

I wonder why you aren't able to throw away these blinkers, um, and to widen your focus some more.

Ok, let me break that up for you.

1. At one level, you can simply analyze Trump. And find him to be a sociopath and a crook, and a would-be quasi-dictator.

2. At another level, you can analyze people, and see their wants and needs and motivations and desires. (And that intermediate level is where you seem to be stuck.)

3. You can also take it to the next level, and observe how the people look at someone like Trump, and why they do that. (To do this, you need to first look at and analyze Trump and understand him. You need also to look at and analyze and understand the people's needs. And finally, you need also to try to understand what stands in the way of people clearly understanding what Trump actually is and what he actually does bring to the table [and not just claims to].)

----------

Do you see what I mean?

It's not really very complex. It'll just require you to leave one random point of reference that you happen to have focused on, though, and widen your scope to encompass the full view. Leave aside your blinkers, like I said, and see the whole picture.

Then you might start to think about not merely why the farmer wants his soil conserved and enriched; but, in addition, also start thinking about why, to get his soil conserved and enriched, he turns to someone who is transparently a crook, and who has no idea at all about soil conservation and agriculture, and who has neither ability nor intention to help him conserve his soil at all, and is only throwing out empty promises to enlist the farmer's support and to use him.

That is the question. That larger question is what I'm talking about. Not the more limited and blinkered view you keep on returning to.

----------

Although again, like I said, if for reasons best known to you, you prefer to keep on the blinkers, and just focus on that random point as opposed to the full picture: then I'm cool, I'm happy to just smile on with you, and to let this be.)

[um]

@ AR

Your point [2] and the condition of the society these people live in do explain why they prefer Mr. Trump over Mrs. Harris. your point [3]

The western world,, your country also, has been sold out by the ecconomic , political [ = intellectual] elite at the cost of the interests of the common people.

Marx etc spoke about the means of production

These means of production have been sold out to lower cost countries and in doing so deprived the common people the means to earn their own living.

[Appreciative Reader]

"Your point [2] and the condition of the society these people live in do explain why they prefer Mr. Trump over Mrs. Harris. your point [3]"

No, um, they most assuredly do NOT do that.

Heh, I've no idea why you can't understand this simple thing. I think I've discussed this clearly enough! ...Okay, let me try one last time, using a homely-sounding analogy, a hypothetical drawn from farming (even though I know little of farming myself, even so, in hopes of getting this through to you).

----------

Let's say there's some pests that are eating away the crops. To deal with these pests, there are fertilizers available. Some are chemical based, others are organic, and each have their own positives and negatives.

Now in this scenario, there arrives a man in a green suit, and a green hat, who walks by with a pipe (the musical kind, like a rudimentary flute). And he tells the farmers: Look, guys, pay me this much money, and I'll simply play a particular tune, and all of your pests will simply walk away with me, and I'll take them far away from here and drown them in the river, and you'll be free from pests forever.

Sounds cool, eh? Except: the piper is a conman, who's a convicted felon who's many times swindled people. He doesn't know how to play the pipe at all. And in any case, pests cannot be gotten rid of by playing on pipes, that's just a fairy tale.

And yet, you find that the farmers keep on paying the piper. The piper takes his money, and goes away. Nothing happens. And in a few years' time, the piper returns again, with the same offer, and once again almost half of the farmers once more accept his offer and pay him, and spurn the legitimate fertilizers available.

----------

Now, if you want to analyze the situation, you can do one of these things:

1. You can simply analyze antecedents of the pied piper.

2. Or you can analyze the needs of the farmers, their dependency on their crops for their livelihood, the damage to crops from pests, the different kinds of fertilizers available, the long-term damage to crops from chemical fertilizers, and the limited efficacy of organic fertilizers, all of that. (That's where you're at, when you take the analogy to Trump.)

3. But both of these are blinkered pictures. SIMPLY FOCUSING ON #2 DOES NOT TELL YOU CLEARLY WHY THE FARMERS ARE TURNING TO THE PIED PIPER. (Pardon the caps, they're for emphasis, not for shouting!) ...To clearly understand why the farmers are turning to the pied piper, you'll need to throw away your blinkers, and broaden your vision, and appreciate the full picture. You'll need to analyze and understand the piper. You'll also need to analyze and understand the issues of the farmers. And finally, you'll need to go meta, and analyze and understand the farmers' understanding of the piper, and to analyze and understand what stops them from realizing that those are just empty promises. Only when you clearly see the whole picture, that you can truly start to answer the question: Why is the piper able to gull these farmers so completely?

----------

Do you see now, um?

Take this analogy, and reread my last two comments to you in light of it. And you'll see why your position is blinkered and incomplete. And, when you've understood that, then you might want to go back and read my original comment here, in that light. That larger question is what I was trying to address.

[um]

@ AR

I have given an answer to that question
That answer is not appreciated by you.

If you have an answer to that question write it down so that all of us can benefit from it.

[Appreciative Reader]

"@ AR

I have given an answer to that question
That answer is not appreciated by you."

It wasn't appreciated by me, um, because your answer, like I've tried to clearly explain, is a blinkered view, it sees only half the picture, it misses seeing the whole picture.

Didn't you understand what I just said in the comment preceding, um? The pied piper analogy?

Why are the farmers turning to a piper who is fraudulent, and who makes empty promises? Understanding the needs of the farmers only takes you halfway there. It does NOT fully and coherently answer the question, "Why are the farmers turning to the fraudulent pied piper?" --- not unless, in addition to understanding the farmers' needs, you also understand the piper, and, finally and most importantly, understand the farmers' limitations in fully understanding the piper and what he actually brings to the table (as opposed to what he's merely claiming he brings to the table).

It's a simple matter, um. And I don't know how to make this any clearer than I already have, in these last few comments, particularly the one with the pied piper analogy.

----------

"If you have an answer to that question write it down so that all of us can benefit from it."

I already have, in the very first comment I posted in this thread. That's my tentative take, as to why around 50% of the farmers keep on falling prey to the orange piper's transparent charlatanry.

[um]

@ AR

Ask the voters for Mr. Trump why they vote for him.

Listen to them.

You need not to agree or disagree with what they say, just listen.
THAN you will understand their motives.

By explaining to them who and what Mr. Trump is all about,
You will never find the answer about their motivation

[Appreciative Reader]

Sure, no disagreement there. Sure, listen to the Trump supporters. Obviously. ...But then what? What is the next step?

That same example:

Trump supporter says he's disgusted with the genocide unleashed by the murderous Bibi and his IDF; and so supports Trump.

Now what? You need now to realize clearly that Trump represents no route to succor, even though he makes vague claims aplenty. ...And then you need to explain why these people are unable to see this charlatanry, and these empty claims, for what they are.

...And so on, with most every thing they say. Hell, many of them even actually believe the eating-the-pets nonsense, and the election-was-stolen madness.

...Which again brings me back to those four categories I originally spoke about.

----------------

To use the analogy: When asked, the farmers tell you God sent them the piper, they point out the danger in chemical fertilizers, the damage pests cause, how good and efficient the piper is.

But then comes the REAL question. Who are these fools, these complete idiots, who do not see the piper is a fraud, and won't deliver?

To ask that question, um, is to see and wonder about the full picture, as opposed to a blinkered sliver of it.

And that goes for the Trump question, and for the Church question as well.

----------------

ehhh, We're just going around in circles, um. Let's drop it. ...By all means, if you like, re-read both your comments and mine in this thread, and if there's any new angle to this you'd like to discuss, then happy to! ...But maybe we can just step back from just repeating the same thing over and over in different words like this.

[Appreciative Reader]

Haha, do you realize something, um? You couldn't understand what I was saying ---- or maybe the fault was mine, maybe I couldn't convey my meaning effectively to you in terms you might grok, despite trying ---- but still, do you see what we did there? We managed to cross the tree barrier, the thing where random unconnected things are brought up and said one after another for no apparent reason!

We actually had a normal reasoned conversation there, with me trying to explain the part you were missing, and you trying to get it. We never reached the end of it, but we did manage to beat the weird tree thing, and conversed rationally, one thinking human to another thinking human.

Heh, so joker can be banished, and the Arthur Fleck underneath can be reached out to, after all. The Hulk can be banished, and the Bruce Banner within can be reached out to. The unthinking unresponsive random-thinking tree isn't really you at all, the thinking reasoning um within can actually be reached out to.

Breakthrough, eh?

[um]

@ AR

In the way you look at things, you are missing things in what I write, what makes you state that I am not able to see what is missing and / or willing to grasp your view on the matter......something like that

In sharing opinions some benefit and others not.

One of the members of my family listened to Mr John Buttler. His simple words expressed in a simple way opened a door of perception for her for others these doors remain closed and they only see the outer shell of the concept.

The words of the late MCS worked miracles in me but not for others.

That said it doesn't say anything about the [spiritual] status of the late MCS, or the [friendly] Mr. Buttler . It doesn't say what a master is, certainly not a perfect master, let alone that he was one or not ... it only says something about me .. about how i processed what was put before me and digested it.

We not all like apple pie and certainly not coffee. and for dancing one needs two

[Appreciative Reader]

“ …what makes you state that I am not able to see what is missing…”

Oh, I beg your pardon, um! I thought it was just as clear to you as it was to me, that you were missing the meat of what I was saying to you! I meant that completely literally, with zero snide intent, or anything like that!

…Dear um, I’m perfectly happy to drop this thing if you’d rather not keep on discussing this, absolutely no issues! After all, what you believe and what you think important, that is no one’s business but your own; and I’ve no wish to change your mind for you if you don’t want that! Apologies if anything I’d said sounded presumptuous! …But, after all, it was you who brought that up yourself, and presented your thoughts up for examination: so I proceeded to do just that! Like I said, I’m happy to drop this if you find this examination of your ideas uncomfortable and unwelcome.

…With that said, and clearly understood: and to answer your question: why I thought you were missing the essence of what I was saying, is because that is manifestly the case, as evidenced from our exchange! I clearly spelled out what I meant, both directly, and after that via an analogy that I thought might help you better appreciate what I was saying: but your responses to me were simply a rinse-and-repeat of what you’d already said to me, and showed no understanding of what I’d said to you!

…I could, at this point, repeat what I’d said, in different words. In fact, I’ve just now thought of another neat analogy that might probably bring home the matter so clearly that even you cannot fail to get it! …But, rather than my doing that, let me, instead, just ask you first to tell me, in your own words, what you think I’m saying to you. Tell me in your words, briefly, just what you think we’re disagreeing about, and what I’ve told you you’re thinking wrong, or at least, thinking incompletely, like I said, blinkered.

Tell me that, briefly, in your own words, and we’ll both see if you’ve actually understood this. (Because, heh, to actually understand what I’d said is, in this case, to agree with me! Or at least, if not that, then to present a coherent case why not.)

Over to you. In your own words. Then we’ll take that further from there, with that fresh analogy I mentioned. (Note to self, in case I forget when I next check in: Nigerian princes.)

[And once again, um, happy to drop this, right away, if you find this probing of your mind and this examination of your ideas unwelcome!]

[Appreciative Reader]

As far as the elephant stomping around in the room: things don’t look good, not so far! (Of course, there’s very good reason why what we’re seeing at this time isn't necessarily representative of the whole complete picture, that is yet to fully emerge, anyone that knows anything about how the US votes knows that. But still, at the very least, the race is very close, super close, so that it would be fooling oneself if one did not clearly admit that things don’t, in fact, look good so far.)

Fingers crossed!

[um]

@ AR

The painter, the painter with paint and he that uses words, does so to express his own opinions, on what he experiences ...

Than there are the onlookers that do with the outcome what they like.

[um]

@ AR

>> But, after all, it was you who brought that up yourself, and presented your thoughts up for examination: so I proceeded to do just that! Like I said, I’m happy to drop this if you find this examination of your ideas uncomfortable and unwelcome.<<

I did put my thoughts, opinion, [world] view indeed here, nothing more an nothing less.
It is up to the readers whether they read my words at at all and if they do what it means to them.

You made I clear what You did with it ...I have nothing to say about it.

Fortunately for me I do not have to earn a living or anything else from what I write.

[October]

Kaal and its importance in sant mat model

Some people say Kaal is hidden.Some say there is no thing like Kaal.
who is kaal?
Kaal is Conveyor belt over which your karmas are being carried out.

since creation of karma is timebound process,Kaal is that timebound.

Gurus Pierce through this timebound process becoming free otherside.

Guru provides that support which others can lean onto to have rare glimpses.

For a Man having a Guru is must since Guru protects Men from Kaal.

[October]

Kaal has Brahmastra. It's the knot which ties 3 planes with Him.
Brahmastra is 3 point anchor into passive consciousness.
It means Kaal has power to take life of any Men he wants.
Death is slave to him.
Seek Guru's protection to escape .

[Appreciative Reader]

Hahaha, um, back to full-on tree mode, eh?

----------

I know from experience it is pointless to expect any semblance of coherence from the tree, but is the tree able, at least, to say why that principle, that it outlines in those two comments, does not operate when the tree itself reads the comments from Kranvir and Trevor, or indeed from yours truly, or from anyone else, or indeed when it reads Brian's posts?

I mean, why this complaint? Going by your weird Tree Principle, why don't I qualify as a painter and a tree, so that every time I speak, my words are paintings and fruit, to be seen and appreciated as such by you?

Or is everything we say paintings and fruits, including what you said just now, and what I'm saying just now? So that --- haha, all comments are kosher, no matter how random and how nonsensical, with just one necessary requirement --- that they never ever must make sense? (But even on that you fall short, sometimes. I've seen you respond coherently to vaccine deniers, and converse intelligently and informatively about RSSB history, for instance.)

...Haha, um, you and your tree, and your movie theater awakening, and your fingers pointing at the moon! You've just have gassing away this whole time!

[Trez]

Gurinder Singh Dhillon promises too much but delivers nothing and never has.

All he has delivered is lies like many politicians he feeds us all bull

Trump is an Angel compared too Gurinder Singh Dhillon

Kaal has disgused himself as Gurinder Singh Dhilion and gives his 5 name kaal meditation to all with the first name Jyot Naranjan which means the " Light of kaal"

This is the same as the light of lucifier the light bearer.

Could this be any clearer?

So what are theses so called satsangis researched before they gave they're all to Gurinder.

Should one not research before than after

Even now do your research and you will find everything you need to know about Radha Soami cult and Gurinder Singh Dhilion
Which will be bitter but that's what reality always is, but at least you will not be lead astray by the devil in disguse Gurinder Singh Dhilion

[Gurjeet]

'Good intentions' here but that exactly pave the road to hell, as been seen in history. Trump is full of flaws but that is a relative term. If we go by 'character', we can just select a Pope to be a 'president of the world' because he is supposed to be most pious person. Problem is people are not open minded don't come out of their echo chamber (I would assume in this case NYT, CNN, MSNBC...). HATING TRUMP reflects equal or I would say more FANATICISM as so called pro-Trump worshipers and is no less RELIGIOUS than worshipping a human God. Besides Biden regime's hardships on a common man and forced social engineering deviod of common sense, Trump became hero because of victimization by Dems and mainstream media's falsehoods [to name a few: 'Russia collusion', Hunter's laptop as Russian plant, border is sealed, Biden's mental status is good (till exposed), economy is good ('people just don't know it'), biological man is a woman in women's sports...]. Hard to imagine that Trump is a (petty) liar (agreed) but other side is not (which rather believes in lies, as above, that are many folds of greater implications than Trump's as above).