The sad state of RSSB gurus, and advice on seeking spirituality without them

Today M K Sharma left this comment on my previous post, "Jasdeep Singh Gill, successor to RSSB guru, has disturbing tie to Ranbaxy." Sharma made some points that I'd thought of, yet wasn't able to grasp as clearly. GSD refers to Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) who appointed Gill as his guru-in-waiting.

What a saga unfolding before our eyes! The new Baba, now revealed as the cousin of the old Baba, GSD, is knee-deep in the same deceitful schemes, and it seems the corruption runs through the entire family.

It’s almost like GSD found the perfect accomplice in his own blood, ensuring that all the ill-gotten gains stay neatly within the family circle. For years, countless devotees have poured their hearts into what they believed was true seva—selfless service—only to realize that their dedication and sacrifices meant nothing when it came to choosing a successor.

No one among these devoted followers was ever considered worthy; the role was reserved for a family member who, it seems, has spent time abroad and conveniently stepped in to take over.

This situation stands in stark contrast to the traditions of genuine saints and Gurus of the past, who selected their successors based on merit, spiritual dedication, and selfless service—a painstaking and rigorous process. The transition of leadership was never treated lightly; it was a testament to the chosen one’s spiritual journey and commitment.

But here, we witness a spiritual empire handed over like a royal throne, with no regard for the values that once defined the path.

It’s disheartening to see a lineage that now operates like a dynastic rule, where leadership passes down through blood rather than virtue. If God is truly watching over Sant Mat, one hopes that He will hold this family accountable for their actions. But in moments like this, it’s hard not to question: is God still present, and how can He allow this to happen?

Great question, assuming one believes in God, which I don't -- since the probability of God existing seems vastly less than the probability of God not existing, given the lack of evidence for God's presence (leaving aside the question of what that presence might consist of and how it could be realized).

However, I remain interested in spirituality, which I define loosely as the search for deeper meaning in a person's life, in this case, mine. For about thirty-five years I accepted the RSSB adage that a guru was needed to be a guide to God-realization. Now I embrace the notion that what many or most of us are looking for is so close at hand, we hardly need any help at all in embracing it.

Just a few pointers, basically. Here's how Joan Tollifson puts it in the "Is India More Nondual than Chicago?" chapter in her book, Painting the Sidewalk with Water: Talks and Dialogues About Non-Duality. The back cover describes Tollifson as having "an affinity with Buddhism, Advaita, and other forms of nonduality, but she belongs to no tradition."

Since so-called Eastern spirituality has come to the West, many westerners have rushed to Japan or India or someplace in the Far East to get the real goods. There is nothing wrong with traveling, but what these teachings point to is right here in front of you.

You don't need to go somewhere else. In fact, you never do go anywhere else. Places appear to you, in awareness. They come and go, dream-like.

It has been said that the truth is inside, not outside you. That doesn't mean it's in your intestines or in your emotions, but not in the chair across the room. It means it's in the undivided awareness that beholds intestines, emotions, chairs, birds, and everything else. It points to the realization that there is no boundary, that inside and outside are one whole.

In the same way, past and future are inseparable from Here/Now. When I talk about the jewel of Here/Now, I'm not in any way intending to disparage the study of history or the creative envisioning of the future. I'm simply pointing to the fact that it all shows up Here/Now as one indivisible whole that is boundless, seamless, timeless and spaceless.

How to realize that? Well, first of all, notice that the question itself is rooted in the assumption that it is not realized right now. Is that true? What are you imagining that such realization would look like?

Perhaps the acquisition of the sighting of an enormous object like a giant dinner plate? Or maybe an experience like being permanently high on drugs? Or maybe some mental understanding like an algebraic equation or a verbal formulation that would be the final answer to every question?Does it make sense that totality would be an object, an experience, or a formulation? Does it make sense that "you" would need to find it?

The truth itself is so simple that the mind habitually keeps overlooking it by looking elsewhere.

Endlessly fascinated by glittering distractions (India, Japan, robes, bells, gurus, teachers, retreats, satsangs), we overlook the jewel of here and now. Of course, India, Japan, robes, bells, gurus, teachers, retreats, satsangs -- it's all the jewel. There's no escape.

But when we think the jewel is in India but not in Chicago, or that we need to go to a retreat or a satsang to find it, then we are like a wave looking for the ocean. The imaginary problem can only be resolved Here/Now.

After wandering all over the world seeking the truth "out there" somewhere, after having amazing spiritual experiences and breakthroughs, we inevitably end up back in our ordinary everyday life. Like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, we wake up back in Kansas. The whole journey is inside us, and what we are seeking is inside us, too.

And when I say inside us, again, I don't mean inside the body mind -- I mean Here/Now.

And that's really what all spiritual teachings are pointing to -- that the heart of the matter, the jewel that is being sought is not "out there" somewhere apart from you or in the future. No one can give it to you. You must discover it yourself. And the only thing that makes this discovery seem difficult is how easy it is. It is already perfectly realized.

This moment is the Buddha.

The thought of "somewhere better" keeps us from seeing that what we are seeking, we already are. The postponements, the ways we move away, get subtler and subtler. Wanting to never run off on another journey to Oz ever again is itself running off on such a journey! But luckily, the journey and the one taking it are both imaginary. You never really leave Here/Now.

Sometimes people say, "Everything is great when I'm at these meetings," or "It's all totally clear when I'm off on a meditation retreat, but then I get home and I lose it all." I come back to Kansas and it seems like I'm this screwed up character again.

But of course being on a meditation retreat is going to be different from being in the office. Sitting in silence listening to the rain is different from listening to other human beings. And yet both the office and the meditation retreat appear Here/Now in this ever-present awareness. 

What is, is so simple, so unavoidable. Everything is as it is, even if what is appearing is confusion or upset. 

I like what Tollifson says. I also like what Rumi said in a bit of Sufi poetry, as shared in my blog post, "This is my favorite Rumi quotation." Both are speaking about the here and now.

Fear the existence in which you are now!
Your imagination is nothing, and you are nothing,
A nothing has fallen in love with a nothing,
a nothing-at-all has waylaid a nothing-at-all.
When these images have departed,
your misunderstanding will be clear to you.

Comments

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

Not good to compare Rumi to this psychedelic drug user Tollifson..

"And when I say inside us, again, I don't mean inside the body mind -- I mean Here/Now."

Hers sounds quoted. Or deluded, as how can the eyes see the here/now without its brain/body's mind?

"Fear the existence in which you are now!
Your imagination is nothing, and you are nothing,
A nothing has fallen in love with a nothing,
a nothing-at-all has waylaid a nothing-at-all.
When these images have departed,
your misunderstanding will be clear to you."

Here Rumi is clearly describing his connection with his Master Teacher, Shamas Tabrizi. Who only came to teach one disciple, Rumi himself. So that the circle or imparting Spiritually could continue..

Or Kal/Shaytaan wins

[TruthPrevails]

@Vibhor Verna
This is the kind of mindless nonsense believers spout.
1. His meditation has always been his own. He has meditated diligently for those 35 years. probably more than you have. You are already breaking his commandment by commenting on this site. You are supposed to be meditating - not posting on here.
2. Did you know Brian was highly revered, a satsang speaker, and the author of several RSSB books, including "Life is Fair" ? how many books have you written in seva to your guru? what gives you the authority to challenge a sincere disciple?
3. Brian is being true to his calling in life, He is giving people a platform to express their truth. He has genuinely found that the path is not a valid spiritual path for him. if it is for you, then you should not be going against your guru's commandments by commenting on here. I suggest you become a model disciple before pasing comments on others.

why are you even concerned about Brian. He is doing what he considers best. Who died and made you king?

Get in with your own path. if you are so spiritually elevated, share your spiritual experiences here rather than putting others down. I suspect you have none so all that's left is to criticise others.

[Shushil Rawat]

I can't help but wonder if a successor was chosen( or other word a crown prince)—given the possibility that GSD's cancer has returned and his karmas are catching up with him. Once said by insiders that GSD follows all the discussions here, making Brian’s work even more remarkable. Brian has provided a platform for truth-telling that no Indian media outlet would dare attempt, given the fear of government backlash.
Brian, have you thought about your own successor? What plans are in place for this platform after you? Who will take up the mantle and ensure that the light of truth continues to shine brightly?

[um]

@ Truthprevails

In this realm humans can only attribute meaning and value to what the experience and communicate.

St John of the cross wrote, that if the lord wanted to touch somebody he would do so in darkness and went on to say that this touch in darkness can go with this or that inner experience and unfortunately many that have these inner experiences take them as being that touch. He further stated that those that have these experiences haven opened a door through which all sorts of unwanted and uninvited things can enter a humans mind and body.

There is no way to understand what mystics mean, point at with there poetry, teachings etc . If they want to make others aware of something, they have to speak the cultural laguage of the time ..what they say has no meaning, it serves just as an ..INVITATION .. to have a conscious look somewhere else ...the invitation comes in the form of an narrative, a narrative you HAVE to be leave it is the very truth for it to do its job but the narrative is just a bridge a mental bridge

Just drinking some coffee makes one see these simple things. ..HEAR upon what they say, DIGEST what they say ...do not let it in in one ear and out in the other, always on the search for something new.

These mystics have nothing to say, they say nothing, they cannot say a word and they don't even if they talk hours at a stretch ...they invite people to have a look inside

[Chiro]

Brian, who is highly learned and to be respected as an author and thinker with his own experience of meditation, diverges from my own point of view, which I will respectfully put.
Firstly if Brian is correct then all the saints from Guru Nanak to Guru Arjan Dev, to Dadu, Paltu, Ravidas, Mira Bai, Tukaram, Tulsi Sahib and Soamiji Maharaj are either lying or deceived.
In the inner regions there are a numbers of stages of what people often wrongly describe as nothingness, emptiness or void. Of course such a region as seems predominant at the height of Buddhism is in fact pregnant with that which cannot be called something or nothing because it transcends such qualities. So the debate here is over the existence of God in some ultimate form or preliminary forms until the stage of ultimate formlessness.
Professor David Christopher Lane, a former commentator on Sant Mat as well as cults arising in its name who relinquished that post after the passing of Charan Singh, and is now silent on Beas, describes in the video posted below the Dastarbani of Charan Singh, and quotes the last sentence of His speech "May the contemplation of the form lead you to the formless."
One who in his meditation related how he was taken to the heaven of the Buddhas, in his account claimed that Gautama had not seen the lords of the higher regions in which you must pass and whose forms you view as you rise.
He claimed that the Buddah had turned a sharp right on the upward path as described by the Sants and entered a region of 'emptiness' and total darkness of which there are many and all of whom appear to be without end. Indeed that emptiness had the quality of SatChitAnand. In his spiritual travel into this region he says he beheld vast numbers of realised Buddhas and bodhisattvas, almost like a starry sky full, refulgent and radiant like diamonds in their own light, appearing exactly as depicted in any ancient Indian or Tibetan scroll.
He opined that like the Hindu gods and goddesses which the Buddah saw, and the other forms which appear in Buddhist art, artists in their meditation go in and draw what they have seen on the inner planes. When we see a picture of Saraswati or Lakshmi or Lord Shiva this is how they actually appear within.
The Buddah according to this account never rose to the stages where God takes form. It is only after seeing those forms for example Sat Purush that one then enters the final state of formless, which is even beyond the concept of formless region which Sant Mat mystics call RadhaSoami.
However, all is personally theory until we behold the ultimate truth within our own experience.
David:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_L5sWz6b1k

[The Disillusioned]

@Vibhor Verma

Frankly, you're being very juvenile. The author of this website clearly spends a lot of time and effort in running this, beyond just the RSSB topics. Others like Spence who seems very Pro-RSSB and even the critics do not throw insults. You're letting your emotions out but look like most RSSB people heading home right after the Delhi satsang- raged, pushing others to get in front, pushing others to park first, driving like a maniac cussing all along.

It only goes to show you and RSSB in a bad light. Is that how most RSSB followers talk?

[Ron E.]

What Toliffson calls ‘here/now’, Alan watts calls ‘this is it’, Zen points to ‘just this’ or ‘suchness’, J. K calls ‘what is’ and generally, what most non-dual teachings constantly refer to as the ‘present moment’, the ‘now’ etc. are all in their own way pointing to the irrefutable fact that the only reality we are able to access is that which is arising here/now. Yet, we habitually fill this present moment with a constant barrage of thoughts and concepts.

It seems to me that when confronted with this present moment reality our fragile mind/self structure (that which appears to contain the concept ‘me’) goes into panic mode invoking any number of obscure beliefs, sayings from various saints and gurus, sects and spiritual groupings, quotes from religious scriptures – and the Trumpesque favourite tactic, insults and denial.

It is an observable fact that a strong aspect of human nature is to look for meaning, purpose and truth. Such do not exist in nature being merely conceptual projections, again from a mind/self/ thought basis that seeks to evade its fragile structure from being exposed. In short, every thought generated response is a reaction designed to shield the ego/self from realising its own illusionary nature.

As Joan Toliffson points out: “The truth itself is so simple that the mind habitually keeps overlooking it by looking elsewhere.” And: “Endlessly fascinated by glittering distractions (India, Japan, robes, bells, gurus, teachers, retreats, satsangs), we overlook the jewel of here and now.”

[um]

@ Ron E.

Suppose you are hunting for survival and there is something you cannot see clearly. What would you do? You ask somebody else. You have as your survival is at stake. What you cannot see clearly might be an man-eating animal.

It seems to me that we are trained, conditioned, brainwashed or whatever label one wants to use into asking others, what to do, what to think what to feel, what to believe ...as we are trained to understand that ..THEY know best

Who are THEY
Parents,
Teachers in school etc
Experts
Politicians
Scholars
etc

To give an example ..once I had a conversation with an well known psychiatrist. At a given moment I believed to see his eyes going a little wet. On asking whether there was something wrong ..he said ..where did you got that what you juste explained. I did not immediately understood what he meant and asked him to express himself better. He then told me that what I just said was part of an kind of seminar for Psychiatrists, more or less behind doors and he wanted to know how what i said had come to me.
I had sound laughter when I finally grasped what he said and answered him ... look I am reading from my own book. It was difficult for him to understand used as he was that everything has to come from others, from teachers from experts.

Or ...have a look at what is going on in this very Blog. What is discussed here? what OTHERS do, say, write etc. What our opinions are on this or that expert in this or that field ..

Or listen when you are around with people. Listen to their conversations. It is almost always about OTHERS ..Irrespective of the manner of conversation and the language used, negative or positive.

The more education the more codependency.

And whence that is installed that codependency it is very difficult to get rid of it as it is couple to our feelings of survival.

If one is used to walk with a stick .. and that is what has happened ...it is scary to take that stick away ...no matter how beautiful that stick is.

People have to find out for themselves that they CAN and love to walk on their own feet otherwise let them enjoy the safety of their stick.

[Spence Tepper]

"only to realize that their dedication and sacrifices meant nothing when it came to choosing a successor."

What does one have to do with the other?

Is there some expectation that dedicated Seva has anything to do with getting some reward?

Perfect Seva is Seva for itself, not any reward at all. You are helping someone else in the Master's name, in His presence and company, basically giving it to Him so that it is simply making good use of your time for something useful that has no karmic connection to you, good or bad.

When Shams-i-Tabrizi declared that Rumi was a Saint greater than himself, this was years before he passed away. And there were disciples of Rumi who outright rejected Shams for his controversial positions. Shams wrote that even the praise he received was painful, and this criticism painful to Rumi.

Do we not see the Lord in everyone? Is this so hard to accept?

These things are a mirror.

[um]

@ Spence Tepper

For years I have been working with others for the community. I can't remember that anybody ever said "We do it for the master ..."I suppose if somebody would have done it he would have been asked if he had had a bad nights sleep. Nor was the word seva used.

We were asked to do these things we did and we did it with great pleasure. That pleasure in doing the job and being together with friends, and most of the time also with family, was in itself an reward ... and even if it proves later not to be qualified by somebody as seva, it would still remain a pleasure.

So .. from my point of view participating in any kind of volunteer work, is or must be in itself an pleasure to do ..no need for thinking of "higher" more abstract rewards or intentions.

hahaha .. in looking back maybe we should be asked to pay money for the beautiful time we spend together in doing jobs we loved to do .. due to those days I have learned many skills I never had before ... hahaha

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um!
Agree entirely.
Only to suggest that perhaps, as there is pleasure in the company of friends, perhaps that would include the company of the Master, the dear friend within, especially for those who must do the majority of their work alone. They can enjoy their own inner community in communion with the Master as well. He is their portable community! :)

[um]

@ Spence

I have done many of these works alone ..I can't remember having ever thought about him. I never did nor do. I liked the jobs most of the time things I had never done before..

Why would one think of one we like?

It reminds me of the late MCS. When I saw him conversing with people, going from one to another, I noticed that he was fully attentive to the one he addressed himself and when he turned around he did the same with the next one and leaving no trace of the previous one. So it is my understanding that he did not love people in the way, people normal talk about loving one another. He gave of himself what he had to give and that was it

In my book these are all normal things, no need to use special qualifications for it.

So I have no idea what you are talking about ..when I was doing my work my attention was in the work, nothing special ..and as it was work that suited me i just liked it ..again nothing special to report

[um]

@ Spence Tepper

Having answered you I had to laugh thinking in comparison with you and what you write I might be autistic, habing an EQ of zero ... hahaha .... who knows?

[Ron E.]

um. Just more thought forms, evasions to avoid the reality that presents itself in every present moment.

[um]

@ Ron E.

I do not know how I could escape my here an now and part of that here an now is reading your words and typing out an reaction .. call it ... being a victim of my own reality.

Thoughts just arise unasked, what can I possible do?
[ rhetoric question]

[Ron E.]

um. Teachings on practical matters are fine. For the so-called spiritual enquiry, any help other than pointing out other than the reality of this moment merely supports and maintains walking sticks - which is also part of present moment reality. No escape from now, just evasion.

[Jim]

Experience in the other worlds is the only measure that allows one to even speak. If you have such experience as RS or Eckankar describe then speak. I feel for Brian who gave a good portion of his life to the RS way and got zilch,nada. I did the same but with Eckankar until reading David Lanes book on Paul Twitchel. I had experiences with Eckankar such as the Kundalini and out of body experiences. OBEs where each step walking in the other worlds is ecstasy.
I wish I had found the Frank Kepple six part series on youtube all those years ago. He describes what RS and Eckankar among other orgs strive to do visit the other worlds. What did that do for Brian or other devotes?
We are all left as one author descibes ,the hounds of heaven, always looking,searching for one just one heavenly visit as RS group has written.

[Ron E.]

As much as I love and respect many people and admire many of our achievements, I’m of the opinion that generally we find it almost impossible to live in the real world, the world as presented to our senses, the world that none of our fellow creatures have any problems with. The reason as I see it is that we have become habituated to our thought processes, thoughts in the form of concepts that we consistently overlay onto our everyday reality.

During our human evolution did we allow our beliefs and thoughts to dominate the realities we witnessed, perhaps by way of inventing supernatural ideas to account for natural happenings in order to give us seemingly a modicum of control through superstitious remedies? If so, is it these primitive responses that continue to drive us into the arms of gurus, saviours, Gods, various religious and spiritual groupings and the like. And can we, along with that include our desperate need for fame, wealth, notoriety etc. – all in the name of seeking some sort of security and buffers from the everyday realities of life.

It seems that all these evasions, this desperate need to find some sort of purpose and meaning to our lives inevitably opens the door to fears, doubts, conflicts and confusion when our beliefs and concepts are called into question. Maybe, this avoidance of reality, reality hidden behind our insubstantial and conflicting ideas and thoughts are the underlying cause of the maladies that have always affected our efforts to live balanced lives.

[sant64]

"What a saga unfolding before our eyes! The new Baba, now revealed as the cousin of the old Baba, GSD, is knee-deep in the same deceitful schemes, and it seems the corruption runs through the entire family."

Uh, what deceitful scheme? What corruption?

"It’s almost like GSD found the perfect accomplice in his own blood, ensuring that all the ill-gotten gains stay neatly within the family circle. For years, countless devotees have poured their hearts into what they believed was true seva—selfless service—only to realize that their dedication and sacrifices meant nothing when it came to choosing a successor."

Accomplice to what? What are the ill-gotten gains to which you refer?

If we're referring to loans from a corporation, that's actually legal. It's legal for a corporation to lend money to certain parties. If a bank loans you money, and the bank goes bankrupt, that's not evidence you're guilty of taking the loan. It's the same with corporations.

And even the most pointed non-hyperbole RSSB news site doesn't have evidence to assign blame to GSD for the Singh bros / Godwhari debacle. https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/story/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000-109247-2018-08-20

And, this matter went to court and was resolved, bearing a conclusion that GSD was innocent. So much for the deceitful schemes accusation. (Who am I kidding? Lack of evidence never deters the GSD calumniators.)

As for the charge of nepotism, I agree. Technically, how can one not? And let me say this: I can think of no excuse for Gurinder using his power to strong-arm officials under his command to delay the charges against his son for 6 years so that the statute of limitations runs out on a huge tax bill and to lie about his son's computer. All to win some election. Wait, sorry, not Gurinder, I'm thinking of someone else.

But seriously, I do think following the money often yields light. The problem here is there's no discernable money trail to follow. None has been produced that didn't meet the test of India's highest court, What precisely has been the financial benefit of being an RSSB guru? Perhaps there is one, and it goes back to Sawan's time, perhaps even earlier. It could well be that being the guru results in an ultra-premium brand identity that translates into crores for the holy fam, and indirectly to the guru.

Perhaps that's what's going on in GSD RSSB land for the last 30 years. Family ties and nepotism were the root of ill-gotten gains. But let's be real: If you took initiation from Charan Singh, you knew he was the GRANDSON of Sawan Singh. If you took initiation from Gurinder Singh, you likewise knew he was the NEPHEW of Charan Singh. And so you can hardly cry about nepotism in current RSSB affairs when you knowingly took init from the grandson of the Great Master and thought nothing whatever was wrong with it.

Moreover, if you're a Charan init, you knowingly took initiation from a guru who didn't have a paying job from 1951 to 1990. A guru who despite being unemployed for decades somehow lived like a pasha, Where was your outrage then?

"No one among these devoted followers was ever considered worthy; the role was reserved for a family member who, it seems, has spent time abroad and conveniently stepped in to take over."

I don't quite get how "spending time abroad" merits suspicion. But I do see how someone with a stellar CV -- someone like Gill, who has academic, administrative, and scientific credentials up the wazoo might be seen as a worthy candidate to run the huge administrative org that is RSSB. Didn't this happen in RSSB's past? With Jagat Singh?

"This situation stands in stark contrast to the traditions of genuine saints and Gurus of the past, who selected their successors based on merit, spiritual dedication, and selfless service—a painstaking and rigorous process. The transition of leadership was never treated lightly; it was a testament to the chosen one’s spiritual journey and commitment."

That sounds compelling and very spiritual. Actually, it sounds like it was written by Kirpal Singh, arguing for why he should be Beas's guru. Anyway, by this lofty standard, Charan Singh's appointment as Beas guru is more than suspect. By his own admission, Charan had little spiritual dedication, didn't spend much time meditating, wasn't trained in RSSB theology, and ran away when he learned of his appointment. The complete anti-candidate for guru. So that's another mystical fairytale that doesn't work. Try telling this to Charan devotees....

Before Charan, there was Sawan and Jagat. They were professionals, one an engineer and businessman, the other a college professor. Neither fits the Jaimal Singh mold you have in mind of the guy who spends all his free time in Bhajan. Few gurus do actually. Yogananda maybe? Why didn't you take init from SRF and not RSSB?

"But here, we witness a spiritual empire handed over like a royal throne, with no regard for the values that once defined the path."

What values? Again, if you're a Charan init, you already knew that nepotism is an accepted custom in RSSB.

"It’s disheartening to see a lineage that now operates like a dynastic rule, where leadership passes down through blood rather than virtue. If God is truly watching over Sant Mat, one hopes that He will hold this family accountable for their actions. But in moments like this, it’s hard not to question: is God still present, and how can He allow this to happen?"

"Now operates"? When exactly was RSSB pristinely free of any taint of nepotism or other special interests?

Quite arguably, RSSB was started by Sawan Singh, who we're told only began as a guru because Chacaji gave him the OK. We have no solid evidence that Jaimal Singh appointed Sawan as his successor. For that matter, we also don't have any evidence that Shiv Dayal Singh appointed Jaimal a successor. There's never been a truly "clean" succession in RSSB history.

Some say there's significant doubt that Sawan was mentally fit when he appointed Jagat. Some also say there's a strong case that Jagat had no business appointing Charan successor. And some (very few, God knows why) cried "nepotism!" when Charan appointed Gurinder.

With all of that dubious RSSB succession history, n o w we're clutching our pearls that Gurinder appointed a distantly related relative to be the next guru? Are you looking at actual history or the guru romance in your mind?

I can understand how satsangis may believe in the trope about the perfect master appointing his perfect disciple. But they seem to have strange and contradictory ideas about what fills the bill for perfection.

[Brian Hines]

sant64, per usual, just like Trump, your statements need a lot of fact-checking, because truth is often absent from what you say.

No, Gurinder Singh hasn't been found innocent of wrongdoing. To my knowledge, there's been no court case concluded in the criminal accusation filed against the RSSB guru by Malivinder Singh. If you're aware of such an adjudication, supply a link to stories about that verdict. I'm pretty sure such doesn't exist.

No, these were not ordinary corporate loans. The accusation by Malvinder, backed up by numerous stories in the Indian financial press, was that shell companies were set up to illegally funnel money from corporations once controlled by the Singh brothers into the pockets of Gurinder Singh, his relatives, and close associates. Here's a link to one of the blog posts I wrote about this:

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/02/legal-filing-against-gurinder-singh-dhillon-is-fascinating-reading.html

That post describes the benefit of being the RSSB guru. Gurinder Singh is accused of using his position as the guru to enrich himself by using his spiritual authority to manipulate others into doing his bidding, Gurinder and his family ended up getting hundreds of millions of dollars that were used to buy real estate in the New Delhi area and maybe elsewhere.

Facts matter. Not to you. But to me and others who are part of the reality-based community.

[Spence Tepper]

Actually Brian, the loans were found to be rotating, by the auditors. They were paid back and loaned out again to show more Assetts than really existed at Fortis. This was to cover the real-estate losses from the investments of the Singh brothers, who, at one point, had made a killing, becoming two of the richest men in India temporarily, largely using the money from the sale of Ranbaxy for speculation. They were hooked on using Gurinder's accounts and the shell companies they set up amongst his relatives to rotate (launder) loans and payments to cover their losses. At one point Baba ji sent them a letter saying that if they couldn't repay their own loans they could hand them over to him and he would clean up the mess.

It isn't clear at all that the money went only one way. What evidence we have is that it was repaid back to Fortis only to be loaned out again.

This could just as easily have been an effort by family members to help the Singh brothers cover their speculation losses and the use of Fortis money temporarily. But as the market didn't bounce back these less than legal loans that rotated through "payments" were never repaid. Their discovery became the basis for fraud. And helps explain Gurinder's quiet effort to offer to take the problem onto his own shoulders.

The brothers were honorable enough not to go that far and accept their sentences, and their current incarceration.

If you have any other evidence that they actual dynamics were different, please present them.

We may never know what actually transpired. And that's OK. It's not necessary to have to have someone to blame, right?

But if anyone does need to blame someone on circumstantial evidence, I think the mirror is a great place to start. It's where I go every morning.

[Spence Tepper]

Brian, the reality-based community doesn't usually like to place blame on individuals based on circumstantial evidence.

You may have forgotten that the auditors found the loans were rotating, used to book more assets than actually existed at the time at Fortis. Nearly all the asset amounts audited were accounted for through rotation. So, it wasn't a funnel, but a circle: An effort to temporarily cover speculation losses.

But as the market wasn't bouncing back, the loans weren't going to be repaid even temporarily.

You may also have forgotten that Baba Ji sent a confidential letter to Malvinder, which Malvinder submitted as proof of Gurinder's involvement. But the letter was Gurinder offering to take the loans onto his own shoulders, and to clean up the mess.

Sometimes the need to blame others is so great we only see the facts we want to.

The best antidote for blaming others, I have found, is the mirror.

It's where I start every morning.:)

[M K Sharma]

@Spencer

You’ve cleverly minimized the massive $2 billion fraud, sidestepping the serious wrongdoings at its core. Sure, money moved through various shell companies disguised as loans, but that’s exactly the blueprint of financial fraud: funds circulate, middlemen disappear, and some companies declare bankruptcy to cover the tracks.

Suggesting that GSD’s family was just helping the Singh brothers is absurd. GSD and his family are not naive; they are well-educated, influential, and fully aware of the fraudulent schemes. Greed, not innocence or goodwill, was the driving force behind their involvement. GSD’s sudden willingness to pay might have been an attempt to protect his image, especially knowing that Japanese companies wouldn’t back down and were prepared to fight, as seen in the U.S. court ruling.

The most intriguing aspect is the source of the millions GSD offered to pay. How did he manage to amass such wealth without any substantial work history in recent years? It’s no coincidence that he pleaded with the court to keep his financial records private. This secrecy only raises more questions about his involvement and the legitimacy of his wealth.

The bigger question remains: How can followers justify their devotion to a Master who not only turned a blind eye to such deceit but was likely a key player in the fraud? This clearly contradicts the core teachings of Santmat, which emphasize integrity and truth. Unfortunately, the legal proceedings seem to be stalled, likely due to GSD’s powerful government connections. This raises the troubling possibility that the truth may never surface, even after GSD's death which doesn't seem too far, especially now that his cousin has been appointed as the new Baba. The whole situation reeks of influence, cover-ups, and a betrayal of the very principles that Santmat stands for.

[um]

@ Mr Sharma

>> The bigger question remains: How can followers justify their devotion to a Master who not only turned a blind eye to such deceit but was likely a key player in the fraud? <<

Devotion, like many other things are a personal "give away"
Some give what they have conditional and others not.

Some marry because they love their partner to be, and others if the partner to be deserves to be married, for this or that reason

The tale of laila and Jamun makes it simple to understand.