RSSB guru appoints Jasdeep Singh Gill as successor

NOTE: I just saw in a comment on this post a link to a story about RSSB now saying that Gill actually won't have initiation authority as a previous RSSB message shared in this post said. Reportedly this occurred after RSSB members got upset about the news. Here's how The Tribune story starts out: "In a dramatic turn of events, the spiritual head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), Gurinder Singh Dhillon (69), nominated his distant relative Jasdeep Singh Gill (45) as his successor with 'immediate effect', but later decided to continue to hold his position."

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Big news in the world of Indian gurus! The guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), Gurinder Singh Dhillon, has appointed Jasdeep Singh Gill as his successor. 

This is the first time that's happened in RSSB history. Previously, a guru would appoint a successor who took over after the guru's death. Now Dhillon has done this while still alive. 

RSSB has a notice on its web site.

It sort of sounds from this like there will be two RSSB gurus. Dhillon will remain as the "real" guru for a while and Gill will become the full-blown guru in the future after becoming Patron now, basically manager of RSSB's operations. Apparently only Dhillon will be initiating new disciples until Gill gets the go-ahead to initiate once he becomes the full-blown guru at some point, though this is contradicted by news stories below. 

This will be confusing theologically. But, hey, Dhillon hasn't been a traditional guru so it fits with his style.

UPDATE #1: Just checked my email and saw that several people sent me a RSSB notice saying that Gill has initiation power. So it looks like RSSB now has two full-blown gurus at the same time.

The Economic Times has a story about Gill. It starts this way, contradicting what the RSSB web site says about when Gill will become the "sant satguru" with initiation power.
Download Who is Jasdeep Singh Gill Radha Soami Satsang Beas' new head and former Cipla CSO

A Hindustani Times story also says that Gill will be initiating new disciples. Guess we'll just have to wait and see whether RSSB now has two satgurus: one complete satguru and one incomplete satguru. Or maybe there are two complete gurus, which will confuse disciples who won't know which they should bow most deeply to. [Note UPDATE above: this seems to be the case, since Gill apparently will be initiating people.]

Gurinder Singh Dhillon has nominated his successor, 45-year-old Jasdeep Singh Gill, as patron and ‘sant satguru’ of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas Society with immediate effect.

In a significant development, the Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), a spiritual organisation headquartered on the banks of the Beas river near Amritsar, on Monday announced that its head Gurinder Singh Dhillon has nominated Jasdeep Singh Gill, 45, a doctorate in chemical engineering from Cambridge and an Indian Institute of Technology (IIT), Delhi, alumnus, as its patron and ‘sant satguru’. 

A statement by RSSB secretary Devender Kumar Sikri said: “Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon has nominated Jasdeep Singh Gill, son of Sukhdev Singh Gill, as patron of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas Society with immediate effect from September 2, 2024.

“Jasdeep Singh Gill shall also succeed Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon as the Sant Satguru of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas Society and will have the authority of giving initiation (naam),” Sikri said, adding “Baba Ji has expressed that like he has received full support and love of the ‘sangat’ after Huzur Maharaj ji, he has wished and requested that the same love and affection be given to Jasdeep Singh Gill in carrying out his ‘sewa (service)’ as patron and sang satguru.”

UPDATE #2: I received this thoughtful message from "DSK" just now. Wanted to pass it along with this person's permission.

Dear Mr. Hines,

I have, for many years, followed with great interest the RSSB part of your blog because I come from a Radhasoami family.

I write to draw your attention to this morning's rather surprising announcement that Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon has nominated his successor, an academic and businessman called Jasdeep Singh Gill. As per the expected RSSB style, the announcement on its official website is low-key, inconspicuous and provides only the most basic information on the newly appointed Guru: https://rssb.org/JSG.html.

The speed and suddenness with which the decision was made is enough to pique the curiosity of even an aloof observer such as myself. It is of course entirely likely that the search for a candidate has been going on for any number of months or years before settling on this one, but for most satsangis including my parents, news of this sort was only ever going to be received negatively.

There are accounts, for example, of a spate of suicides during a previous succession described in the RSSB literature, and other drastic emotionally-charged reactions. The stakes are high, and RSSB has made its way into almost every country on earth; a coordinated emotional outburst on a worldwide scale that is anything like those of the past would be catastrophic in its proportions, and, more importantly for GSD, would be terrible publicity for the sect.

On the less emotional side of the spectrum, it is a known phenomenon for even longstanding satsangis to reject the new Guru and go their own way: accounts of this too can be found in the RSSB literature — they simply cannot "feel" connected to the new Guru, they simply cannot bring themselves to attend satsang, and so on. I partly suspect that GSD simply wishes to cushion the ill but inevitable effects of the transition on such a neurotic, dependent and obsessive population that is the sangat by nominating and "training" the new Guru whilst still living, breathing, and giving satsang, almost like — an apprentice!

A separate but related observation. More important than the satsangis are those high-ranking disciples of GSD who have amassed enough material support, enough popularity, and enough prestige, either to attempt to claim the Guruship for themselves from within, or break away and form their own splinter groups under the same or a similar banner.

Those who are familiar with RSSB history and literature will already be aware of the various Guruship claims, iterations, and spin-offs that have accompanied every succession so far. With the organisation having grown as large as it is today, a succession dispute would be akin to a schism in the Catholic Church, and a spin-off would represent the loss of hundreds of thousands, possibly even millions, of disciples as they are siphoned off into the worship of yet another pop-up dera.

And this would be shown in all its terrible ugliness by the Indian media. Best to have a successor in line that everyone can agree on whilst still alive, and avoid the dramas. GSD has learned from the dark days of RSSB's previous successions, and is trying a strategy which he hopes will obviate these risks.

The new satguru has, you will observe, already been assigned his spiritual title of "Huzur," which, while I suppose does have the practical effect of distinguishing one Guru from another in speaking and writing, it more importantly allows for a modicum of pretence at a grandeur that comes with, say, regnal and papal titles.

Every Guru in the lineage has some sort of title or "nickname" by which he is exclusively addressed by all disciples, and which appears to me to be specifically contrived to demarcate the newly anointed divine Master's identity from his previous merely human identity:

1. Soamiji Maharaj (from Shiv Dayal Singh)
2. Babaji Maharaj (from Jaimal Singh)
3. Bade Maharaj/Huzur Maharaj, et al. (from Sawan Singh)
4. Sardar Bahadur Maharaj Ji (from Jagat Singh)
5. Hazur Maharaj (from Charan Singh)
6. Babaji (from Gurinder Singh Dhillon)

Though the titles tend not to be too over-the-top in comparison with other Indian-style sects of similar type, we can still see that RSSB, with its dour rejection of the majestic, the ritual and the ceremonial, appears at least subconsciously to have preserved this nominal element of traditional succession.

It remains to be seen what will become of the old Dastarbandi, the traditional turban-tying ceremony, considered by many satsangis to be almost akin to a coronation. The communique (attached) makes it clear that the succession is "with immediate effect" from today. This may not seem significant to many, but to the masses of satsangis who have grown attached to the current Guru, whether Indian or diaspora, a ceremony represents a visible transfer of authority which fits in nicely with the simple "God-In-Human-Form" style of theology.

A transitional apprenticeship period now blurs these lines. "How can there be two Gods, two Babajis?" I hear my mother ask. I suppose we shall find out soon enough under the new diarchy.

A final point to be made is that it is clear for anyone with eyes to see that successors are not selected for their piety or religious merit, but for their business, management and administration skills. A quick perusal of the Successor's profile will make this plain enough to even the most casual observer. RSSB is no longer a religious organisation; it is an organisation with some religious activities, and must be run accordingly. The present Master is part-Guru, part-CEO. The new Master will be more CEO than Guru.

Comments

[Arun]

My thinking is Baba Gurinder Singh has resigned under pressure from senior trustees due to controversies associated with Shivinder and Malvinder singh and Baba ji and Sunil Godhwani. Whole saga has brought bad name to the dera unlike anything seen before.

[Raju]

Nothing surprising here. Gurinder is retiring so he can enjoy the millions of dollars he has stolen.

[Singh]

Such a sensationallist Brian. You are no better than the Indian media.

[J.S.]

Work Experience
...
Ranbaxy (2006 – 2010): Multiple roles
...

Interesting, that he was also employed by there...

[Raju]

Does anyone else find it odd that the official announcement has so much detail about his educational and professional background. Almost reads like a new CEO announcement for a large corporation rather than for a new spiritual master.

[Raju]

I bet that this Jasdeep guy is also a crook like Gurinder. He is obviously highly educated and I’m sure he is well aware that this is a fraudulent organization. Very likely he was offered riches in exchange for taking on the position.

[David Christopher Lane]

This kind of succession happened a number of years ago when Thakar Singh appointed Baljit Singh while still alive and brought him up to the dais.

Other gurus have appointed successor gurus long before their death as in the case of Faqir Chand who was appointed a guru 20 years before his guru’s death.

The positive spin is that Beas avoids a succession dispute.

Naturally that doesn’t dismiss the other controversies.

[Chiro]

Appointing a family member, howsoever distant, is a blow, yet another blow to the faith of older satsangis. The fact that he is a CEO lends weight to the proposal that Maharaj Charan Singh had no worthy successor and Gurinder's successorship was most likely a decision then taken by the family as it were at gunpoint, purely to keep the organisation and the family interests going. Raju's point about Jasdeep having no spiritual record worth noting to the media and sangat is very telling. Jasdeep is a busy man in his business life at the top of the tree and one fails to see how he could have reached the fourth stage with obviously very little meditation between studies and a mind occupied intensivly with worldly affairs. The most shocking revelation for me in the reporting was the claim that Gurinder gave satsang, he never did in the time I hung around the RSSB after Charan's death until I could not take it anymore. As Lee Marvin might have said "Smoke gets in your eyes but only Gurinder makes you cry."

[Nitin]

Not surprisingly it’s a family member. This is a power hungry money hungry family.

[Baba Land Grab]

When Baba Charan Singh expired , Gurinder Singh Dhillon was working in a hotel in Spain . Local RSSB branch members told him he was new Dera Beas head & took him to airport for going to India, he was playing Punjabi bhangra songs enroute to airport . He was a well known womaniser in hotel trade . Main reason he did not like people taking his photos in earlier days of Guruship.

[El]

I like news.
This makes me happy lol.

Just like giving birds and rabbits water and
delighting in the wild unspoilt protected land thru my window.
All beautiful wild things the “essential truth” of which eludes us
yet bubbles within us.

I predict Joy will return to Dera. All those overburdened reps and tired dera sevadars especially the white ones will smile again.

I also predict many delicious curries for everyone. And chai. ;) For um too. 💕

Thanks for your post Brian. Loved it.
And enjoyed update 2.

[DSD]

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab/beas-dera-names-gill-as-spiritual-head-retracts-hours-later/

One too many Gods in Human form! Definitely confusing.

[smanwani]

Wow, big news indeed! Although the cat is out of the bag that Gurinder is obviously not GIHF (God in Human Form), which effectively discredits all of the RSSB "masters", I hope this development brings some fresh air to the RSSB organization, and that Jasdeep & Co. provide a different kind of spiritual guidance to its followers rather than the falsehoods of the past.

[Jia]

My entire family is devoted to RSSB for 37 38 years. Especially, my mother in law. Every week she travels 25 kms which takes around 2.5 hrs in a cab. Sometimes twice in a week. They ask you to come not forcefully but depometically like you are the most important person and also some how make people to do more seva and come to the centre even if they have work. Also, the concept of namdan was highly durable as I was disqualified because I didn't lie and then everyone in my family was saying just lie and you will get it.
( I still used to give them benifit of doubt that these are people people and babaji is not like them)
I have attended his satsangs n to be honest I liked him.

But I always doubted that he is the ultimate master as my mother and others at center says babaji visits them in their meditation and few other things.

Yesterday when she heard the news she wasn't stooped crying like someone died.
Then all the sangat went to beas yesterday night by spending thousands of rupees in rental cars.

And then I started to check on internet and I found your page and I was literally surprised and I did other digging as well and it proves that he is not saint.

But I can not say this to my family they will not accept it. For them he is like a god.

What a strang world.

[Karma Chameleon]

I think the original statement makes a distinction about when the new leader will take over the roles, but it caused confusion and had to be clarified.

It says he takes over as “Patron” immediately, and that he shall take over as satguru without saying effective immediately.

That’s a possible reading of it, so it could be argued that nothing changed in the update, it was just a clarification.

[chiro]

I am simply not convinced by the theory that this was all about avoiding problems with succession. All Gurinder had to do in that case was to summon his army of lawyers (for he by all accounts is as lawered up as the top mob bosses of the past) and draw up an iron clad will attested by a number of big shots. No, I believe he must have been acting on imperative, something may be brewing under the surface about his past so he is getting his family interests securely lined up as quickly as possible before SHTF. Another possibility is that he is tired of rather unconvincingly and poorly playing the role of a Satguru, and this appointment will allow him to gradually ease back into his own life without the scrutiny of the media and sangat. To say it is to give time to training his cousin in parmarth is nonsense. Hardly anyone was even aware of Gurinder before Maharaj Charan Singh died, Gurinder was not drinking charanamrit, waving fans, drawing water from the well for the Guru's bath, ever acting as a devotee whose only wish was to sit at his master's holy feet. At what point does the RSSB get to be called a cult now? As to his seeming zillions of young Indian initiates it strikes me that with the rapid spread of brute materialism and cultural Marxism in India (look how long it took Google et al and the porn industry to destroy the spirituality of Catholic Ireland, Spain and Portugal) they want a figure of worldly success with a dumbded down teaching that they now en masse can aspire to. I doubt you will find many young Indian men meditating along the banks of the rivers aiming to achieve God realisation, certainly not if they have a briefcase stuffed with degrees and PhDs and a Ferrari parked outside the cave.

[Ex Believer]

Today during the satsang at Dera Beas, four people sat on the stage.

1 Pathi (Rhymes singer)

2 Preacher (Radhasoami Scholar)

3 Baba Gurinder Singh ( Chief CEO Cum Head Guru) First Essential Qualification Charan Singh's Sister's Son ,Secondary Qualification Graduate.

4 Jasdeep Singh (Additional CEO cum Deputy Guru). First Essential Qualification Charan Singh's Sister's Grandson, Secondary Qualification Doctorate.

[HopeOurMediaImproves]

Too much of sensationalism created by this blog - like Indian media did yesterday. Like Indian media to get views and likes and TRP ran stories after stories based on one piece of paper without waiting for more clarity. Had they waited then they would have lost precious TRPs. Later in the day they themselves are issuing clarifications/blogs/vlogs claiming now they have the "True version and don't believe other media".
Then it is picked by other bloggers and vloggers and they produce content to create sensation.

[Ex Believer]

@HopeOurMediaImproves

The real sensation has been spread by Baba Gurinder Singh.

[MP]

Guru Gobind Singh Ji, tenth and last living Sikh Guru enjoined upon his disciples, when they asked him who will guide them after Him, He emphatically said that the holy Sikh scripture 'Granth Saheb ' will be the next and everlasting Guru. So from that day onwards, the scripture is called Guru Granth Saheb by all Sikhs and seekers. This doctrine has stood the test of time. After all seeker is to take guidance and it's available authentically in Guru Granth Sahib.
We have observed mushrooming growth of living Gurus all over the world in recent history and innocent seekers get hooked so easily by listening to their oratory skills and other pomp and show. A deeper search will reveal that these so called Gurus don't preach anything original from their own spiritual experience but just explain the Shabad (Hymns) in their style and words which suits them specially laying much emphasis that living Guru is basic requirement for spiritual growth. But it's not at all true. Seeker should gain knowledge from scriptures, good company and leading a moral Life and ofcourse through MEDITATION. Meditation is a spiritual practice to withdraw the wavering Mind to become still and lean within. There are several known practices and one can follow with little effort and discipline without associating with any sect or religion.Its individual practice and search and every soul has to travel its own inner journey.
About two decades ago , a book was published ' Radha Soami -A Reality' by a learned scholar who made indepth study about various Radha Soami Lineage and revealed that there are 128 different Radha Soami sects in India and some outside India and all are claiming that they have authorisation from Soami Ji Maharaj to initiate the disciples. This book is out of print now but may be available in some Library. Quite revealing a Book .This was the state two decades ago and the current situation can be imagined. There were fights not only for succession but property disputes and court cases were quite common in almost all deras (sects).
Actually , there is fault with disciples also. They just jump and fall to have a instant Nescafe taste of Spirituality by attending few discourses and start following a Guru. Then they start involving with the group activities in the name of Sewa and get some position in the set up and start enjoying the status symbol and forget the purpose of Spirituality. Human mind doesn't accept that I have made a mistake.
Innocent folks - seekers should not fall pray to these Gurus ( God in Human form) but try to study the spiritual scriptures and accept the time tested doctrine of Guru Gobind Singh Ji that in this Kalyug , no living Guru is perfect to guide us.

[TruthPrevails]

GSD clearly did the handover, but due to too many people being upset, backed down.

The sangat may well reject the new guru. The sangat is not completely stupid.

Hence GSD decided to remain as guru, with his cousin as a trainee.

what spiritual progress has the new appointee attained?
he is a busy business executive and his priority is money.
Baba Jaimal singh is an example of a spiritual minded person with very little interest in deras and business.

Time will tell if the new guru can pretend to be spiritual enough to convince the followers. GSD did a pretty good job and the sangat connected to him

[Chiro]

@MP Looks like you have finally solved a problem. I have been seeking the truth about Guru Gobind Singh's injunction to the sangat to worship the Grant Sahib and give up the path of the living satgurus. Perhaps this information is only available in Gurmukh or Hindi which is why I have not so far found it. Can you kindly post a translation or link to the original text or the actual documentation here? Thus finally this historical case can be proven to the English speaking Sant Mat world, who I have to say, based on the evidence of the teaching of all other sants, believe that a living master is needed to connect disciple to Shabd, and who mostly continue to doubt Guru Sahib ever uttered such an order. I would be most grateful.

[Neon]

ITS A FAMILY BUSINESS, HOW LONG WILL THE PLEBS TAKE TO FIGURE IT OUT!!!!!!!!

[um]

@ NEON

The plebs exists for the rich to become rich and stay rich.

Research your own life and you will find that you too are contributing to the welsh of others....you work to have money to spend on items that make them rich.

The romans knew it.

Hahahaha ....Look at the animals, in the zoo and how they behave, who is first fed and who not.

Humans have sophisticated that drive ...member of TIKTOK ...hahahaha

Envyious Neon?
hahaha

[MP]

@Chiro, Following text is in brief about your query. Enough evidence is available on the Net these days for English speaking seekers. So you can explore further. However following text will help you.
The Guru Granth Sahib (Punjabi: ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ, pronounced [ɡʊɾuː ɡɾənt̪ʰᵊ säː(ɦ)(ɪ)bᵊ(˦)]) is the central holy religious scripture of Sikhism, regarded by Sikhs as the final, sovereign and eternal Guru following the lineage of the ten human gurus of the religion. The Adi Granth (Punjabi: ਆਦਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ), its first rendition, was compiled by the fifth guru, Guru Arjan (1564–1606). Its compilation was completed on 29 August 1604 and first installed inside the Golden Temple in Amritsar on 1 September 1604.[3] Baba Buddha was appointed the first Granthi of the Golden Temple. Shortly afterwards Guru Hargobind added Ramkali Ki Vaar. Later, Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Sikh guru, added hymns of Guru Tegh Bahadur to the Adi Granth and affirmed the text as his successor.[4] This second rendition became known as the Guru Granth Sahib and is also sometimes referred to as the Adi Granth.
Secondly, when you approach a living Guru, ask him for his own spiritual experience and knowledge. Normally, they just quote from Granth Sahib or Bible and explain in the discourse which can be done by any learned speaker. So happy quest for the TRUTH !

[99.99]

Hundreds of years ago, Granths, scriptures and Vedas were composed in a country where 99.99% of the population was illiterate.

In those hundreds of years, no school, college or university was established and 99.99 percent of India's population was kept illiterate for some purpose.

[Chiro]

@MP
Actually I am looking for the documentation of the order. As you may be aware it is not stated anywhere, as far as I know, in the text of the Adi Grant Sahib itself. Nor is it given in any of the intro to Sikhism texts to which you refer. Also Imagine if Charan Singh had made such an order on His death bed calling for the book Gurmat Siddant to be regarded from now on as Guru. Do you not think all the leading members of His staff and the committee would not demand written proof of such an historic command leading to a huge change in the teachings, creating a huge aberration from the Bani of all the previous Sants, from Kabir to Tulsi Sahib to Baba Sawan Singh and in particular from the previous Sikh gurus? Would they not demand it is written down, signed, witnessed and properly notarised? Such a huge alteration in the path of Sant Mat would surely never emerge undocumented and hearsay IMO can never be countenanced as evidence.

[Spence Tepper]

Saints can and do arise in every region and time of this earth. But who is also qualified to be a loving teacher? And who can also run a very large international organization with great care, leadership and detail? These are different qualities. To find someone who has all of them is a miracle of destiny and fate.

The good news is that Baba Ji is doing his thing, being meticulous, bringing the next Guru in, allowing time to help everyone make the transition, including the new Master. Baba Ji is an example of a very adroit executive, skills absolutely necessary for such a large organization to function as well as it does, and to always be prepared to do as much public service as it does whenever the call arises.

People will have different reactions. But this is clearly being done in with minimal disruption, and great care. Great thoughtfulness for continuity and a smooth transition, and respect for the traditions.

Brian, I like that you have put all the news (and a lot of the commentary) here including the link to the official RSSB website announcement.

If succession planning is good for an organization, it is doubly good for one where people's connection to the leader is very personal, and individual. Continuity really helps everyone maintain a peaceful and reliable atmosphere for meditation, Ahimsa and effort in their lives.

Personally, we are very excited to see and hear more about the new Master.

Saints arise in every region of the world. In the history of Sant Mat there have been multiple Saints at one time, each assigned to initiate and fulfill the role of Master in different regions or duties.

Whenever one Saint emerges and is officially recognized by another Saint, that is a moment for celebration. We look forward to hearing and reading his teachings in the years to come.

All of us whose Master has since passed on have learned how their successor puts forth the identical Shabd teachings in the language of our time, and helps people grapple with how to live a balanced, peaceful life of Shabd meditation. Seeing them in the flesh, hearing their words, we have communion with our own Master. One Light, many, many windows.

[Vibhor Verma]

How is this against the RSSB tradition? News outlets just presumed that Gill already is the sant satguru. That is not the case, however. Only after GSD leaves this plane, will Gill succeed as the next Guru. Right now, he has been handed over the other aspects of the organization and will be under the present master's guidance. The tradition is to appoint a successor while the present master is alive and it has been kept with. It's your problem if you want to impose a forced opinion on people reading your blog. Get a life and move on from RSSB already. Stop making speculations like unemployed old hags.

[MP]

@Chiro ! May try get following book and you will get many answers.
Radhasoami Reality - The Logic of a Modern Faith is a book by Mark Juergensmeyer that explores the appeal of the Radhasoami religious logic to many urban professionals in North India. The book examines the relationship between modernity and religious faith from historical, sociological, and phenomenological perspectives.

[Vibhor Verma]

@MP

Is it a crime for an enlightened person to quote from Guru Granth Sahib? What else is Granth Sahib about if not spiritual concepts? Scriptures have the acceptability of the masses and provide a good vantage point and reference to disseminate one's spiritual message. Reference to scriptures also provides a way for intellectual acceptability before taking to a path. Even if you ask a master for their own spiritual experiences, how are you even going to comprehend what they say? Are you honestly going to say you will accept their words at face value? Additionally, since your scriptures were the first media to expose you to the concepts of God, enlightenment, spirituality etc., it makes sense to refer to them so that you find the teachings relatable and ponder upon them. It's an intellectual exercise first.

[Vibhor Verma]

@TruthPrevails

There's no backing down. There is nothing to back down on. It's clearly mentioned in the communication by the secretary that he will take over as patron with immediate effect from September 2 and 'shall' succeed Babaji as the sant satguru. It's no one's fault except yours if you can't understand what succession means. No master abandons his sangat while alive but it's been a tradition to appoint successor while the present master is alive. Just rest your speculations and get a life.

[TruthPrevails]

@ MP and Chiro:

There is no evidence whatsoever that Granth sahib is guru.
There is plenty of evidence against that being the case.
against:
1. Adi Granth was compiled by Guru Arjun Dev. If a book could be guru, he would have appointed it. Did he? No. A human guru was appointed.
2. Guru Gobind Singh compiled the SGGS from memory, and gave his stamp of authenticity to it. All he had to do was write "This SGGS is the new guru". He did not do so. Why? because it was never the guru.
3. Guru Gobind Singh also wrote dasam granth and other scriptures. He could easily write that statement in Dasam Granth. He did not. Why? because he did not make such a statement

so where does the statement come from?
"Guru manio granth" is not a statement by any of the ten gurus. It is not even a statement by Bhai Gurdas. So it is a statement made by an author, some 150+ years after guru Gobind passed away.
The author claims that Guru Gobind Singh made the statement. No supporting evidence.
That's like someone in 150 years time claiming that GSD gave his grandfather the successorship, without producing any evidence.

No book can ever be the guru. It can contain the writings of the Gurus, which is does, but guru is more than just the written word.
The book can never do what the physical gurus did. will the book travel the world and meet sajan tagh? The teachings are the guru, but they have to be understood correctly and the written words is easily misunderstood

[Vibhor Verma]

@chiro

You are already convinced GSD played the role of a satguru poorly and your wild speculations stem from there. There is no point arguing with you. You seem content, drowned in your own word soup.

[TruthPrevails]

Chiro is correct. Sikhs are misguided. They have no guru. If they had a guru, they would not be doing various paaths and charging for it. Gurdwaras are a lucrative business. The followers mostly know this and just follow blindly. Sikhs are the new pandits that guru nanak exposed. Guru Nanak freed us from pandits, saying pandits have no special authority to read scripture. Now we pay for a paath to be done thinking it has merit. We have lost Guru Nanak's wisdom

[Vibhor Verma]

Dear Brian,
@Jia

Learn to comprehend documents written in plain English and just stop sensationalising every update regarding RSSB. You must be mentally sick to keep obsessing about an organization that you left years ago. So see a good shrink about that. I wonder why people don't see Brian for the BS he is.

[Appreciative Reader]

Wow. Big news indeed for the RSSB fanboys and fangirls.

My first reaction is, this new guy's as blue chip as it gets. I mean to say, he's got a solid IIT-MIT-Cambridge pedigree. And not in some airy-fairy discipline, but actually in engineering. Doesn't get more solid than that. Big contrast with GSD, on that count.

Following on that, and unlike GSD, this guy's probably not out to fill his pockets. Because if he wants to do that, then an IIT-MIT-Cambridge engineer can very easily do that, pretty much handsomely, following perfectly valid routes easily open to someone like that. ...Therefore, chances are that the man won't turn out to be a money-grabber.

...So, is an engineer, who's spent his days studying, and working his pants off, and who's likely had little time left over to meditate, truly a Sant Satguru that can mark you with magick, and can wizard you off to the heavens when you hand in your pail? ...Very good question, that. It's like asking, can a guy that's got a beard, actually be a pink unicorn, given that unicorns don't have beards?

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Does anyone really know what the RSSB theological position on this actually is? Can there actually be two Sant Satgurus at the exact same time? Might make for an interesting discussion, if anyone is actually clear on the details of that, and can talk about it. ...I remember people going overboard with theological speculations back when they put Benedict to pasture and brought in Francis instead; there too, while apparently there was a precedent, many centuries ago, but apparently the theology around it was contentious.

[Appreciative Reader]

Haha, my bad! ...I suddenly realized that I don't actually know if unicorns do have beards. Plugged that question in on to Google; and it seems that medieval art does depict unicorns with a little goat-like beard. Not always, but often enough that it is patently wrong to state, as I had done, that "unicorns don't have beards".

So then, those who were wondering if this new guy, given his pedigree and work experience, and with the absorption in worldly matters that that implies, is equipped to mark you and to carry you off up above the sky so high when it's your time, then don't worry. Unicorns do have beards. Ergo, his beard is no impediment. He'll come for you, all right, with his degrees trailing after him.

[Chiro]

"By their fruit shall ye know them" Jesus Christ.

Two satsangs by genuine sant sat gurus. Note the focus on the subject and the passion for the subject and the lack of anything less than the subject. A real Sat Guru beings ineffable peace and engenders happiness to all devotional beings while love and light streams out of Him. A fake guru brings only pain and tears by his behaviour. The top sewadars of the first are generally humble, loving servants of the sangat, the top sewadars of the second are a STASI like cold hearted security police in disguise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QwEJKxxHF4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy1U45s9Nfg

Of course not everyone sees the difference between the fake and the real, because everyone's karma and mindset at that time is different. The sangat's love will always sustain the fake guru, and they will even see the fake guru projected by their mind in mediation. Were it not for the love of the people many of the main religions would collapse under the weight of widespread hypocrisy of the priestly classes.
@Appreciaive Reader Yes, the two-popes Benedict/Francis aspect directly relates IMO to what is happening in Beas. How many fake gurus and popes do you need to pile up in order to make up for one genuine one?

[um]

@ Chiro

Some one said that if plants get to much sun, to much water they grow to fast and cannot support themselves.

What do you to to stop that growth?

By creating harsher circumstances for a while.

[No Kool-Aid]

Bring on the Clowns 🤣

[sant64]

Your version of this situation is the usual hyperbole. I don't think it approaches accuracy.

1) RSSB does have a precedent of the reigning guru appointing his successor. In the 1930s, Sawan Singh created a will where he named a satsangi (not Charan Singh, that came later) to be his successor upon his demise. But there is a precedent here: a living RSSB guru making a full announcement to the sangat of his succession plans.

2) Nothing you cited says or implies that both Gurinder and Gill will be initiating at the same time. What's tactfully implied is that Gill will be initiating guru sometime after Gurinder dies.

3) I don't see anything strange or nefarious in this announcement. On the contrary, it seems more above board than, say, a sitting US president who's running for office being ousted by the leader of the House and a Hollywood movie star, told to either back off his pledge that only "Almighty God" could make his drop out of the race, or face total disgrace when the obvious truth of his senility was brought forward and the 25th Amendment invoked by his own party. So I give Gurinder credit for not waiting until he was in the state of Sawan Singh or Joe Biden and making matters crystal clear to the sangat. There was always a measure of doubt about RSSB succession ever since Sawan died. Sawan was clearly non compos mentis and his appointment of Jagat, who appointed Sawan's grandson, who appointed his own nephew, is looked upon as somewhat doubtful by some of us who are not RSSB initiates.

[sant64]

Pressed by Piers Morgan, Richard Dawkins's utter failure to justify his atheist beliefs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA4Hx-dJAn4

"I don't understand what the physicists say, but we must believe them!"

[Spence Tepper]

Saints arrive in all cultures and times. There can be any number of them at any time, even in Sant Mat.

Those who lead organizations not only must be qualified to initiate, but also to lead, to teach, to comfort, at times to challenge, and to run their organization. That is a much longer list of requirements than simply being a realized soul.

With international organizations a business background is practically a requirement.

So when such an individual has been identified by a Sant Sat Guru, it is a time to celebrate.

Each Master has their own style, and communicates the same teachings in the culture of their own time.

I very much look forward to hearing Huzur's teachings.

[DSD]

@ Spence Tepper
Dear Sir Tepper,

https://ayankeepastor.blogspot.com/2012/07/letter-from-st-paul-applying-for-job.html?m=1

Leaders of the church laughed at Paul of Tarsus when he was applying for a job as a pastor, thinking this idiot doesn't have any qualifications to lead our church.
My point being, why does GIHF need worldly certifications or wordly skillset to lead people to heaven or Sachkhand?

[MP]

@TruthPrevails,
If you are happy with any living Guru, then enjoy the Bliss !

[Confused]

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab/day-after-flip-flop-over-beas-dera-head-dhillon-and-gill-share-stage/

Above link has an interesting comment that is even more confusing to me:
"Dhillon did not address the gathering, yet he answered their query through hand gestures only, to convey to them that he was there, and asking them to acknowledge Gill as his successor."

GSD is very comfortable interacting with sangat. Why not introduce Jasdeep Singh Gill as the successor with spoken words instead of hand gestures? And command the sangat to give him the same support and love that he has received?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi DSD
You asked
"My point being, why does GIHF need worldly certifications or wordly skillset to lead people to heaven or Sachkhand?"

Saints arise in all regions and times. But we aren't ready to accept them. We want an organization. We want accomplished office holders. We want things certified and official. And to run that organization does require much more than being a Saint. Those are worldly functions in the service of spirituality. It only makes sense to fill those offices with qualified individuals who also have the skills to succeed at the organizational, leadership and communication requirements

Anyone who can fill that bill of requirements successfully is a living miracle.

[99.99]

Dear Spence Tepper,

At this time, China and North Korea need more saints and gurus than India. India already has a lot of saints and mahatmas. Please tell Baba Gurinder Singh and Jasdeep Singh that China, Korea, Somalia need more gurus than Punjab and India and please go there and preach Santmat. I don't know why? Why does God impose all these gurus on India only?

[Chiro]

All this reminds me of a text I read some while back which, having not been classified correctly on the web, seems impossible to locate again. We only have a fraction of the Bani of Sants translated into English, most of it is hidden behind what James Bean calls 'The Hindi Wall.' Here and there translations appear or disappear if they are taken down. We have no real idea of the extent of texts attributed to Kabir and they are often scattered in fragments between different panths and ashrams. Indian spiritual books of inestimable value have been printed with as low as only 400 copies and now lost in Indian libraries or the bookshelves of ashrams gathering dust. It is thanks to people like the late S.D. Maheshwari of Dera Bagh that they come to light. If I were a millionaire I would buy Belvedere Press and translate their whole catalogue and many other hidden and lost works besides into English.

The text was of a conversation between Kabir and Kal about permissions for a Satguru to obtain a visa from Kal to enter Pind, our region, and take souls out of it. One may have noticed that when a successor is appointed by a Satguru his spiritual location is often poised somewhere below Sach Khand and still within Kal Desh which, though rapidly shedding Kal's power as it rises, reaches up to and into Bhanwar Gupha. And there is a reason for this according to that Kabir text. Bear in mind that both Baba Sawan Singh and Maharaj Charan Singh privately admitted upon receiving the Gaddi that they had not reached the fourth stage, i.e. Sach Khand or beyond.

According to the text Kal demanded that a Guru only had the right to propose a successor (one presumes that could then be even seconded internally by His now deceased master and even that Guru's deceased master as we have observed at Dera Baba Jaimal Singh). Then Sat Purush would have to consult Kal. If Kal was comfortable of the threat to remove only a certain amount of souls the permission would be granted. At that point the successor would be elevated rapidly to the fourth stage and become a Satguru. Charan Singh Ji relates how he was held as a prisoner by four locks; one of the compound, one for the door of the house, one of the floor of his room, and one on the door of His room, all to allow Him full time with no other distraction to meditate or perhaps even to prevent His escape the Dera.

However, if Kal objected to the proposal it would be refused. The proposed successor would then by grabbed by Kal and not allowed to enter the fourth realm and so become Kal's man. Why would Kal refuse? Well, as it explained Kal at the end of the conversation with Kabir addressed His entry into the world and said "Go ahead start your satsang, but when it becomes old and fat and rich and is like a fat cow ready for slaughter then I shall come as the master and I will wear a turban even bigger than yours!" What could be such a turban? How about the demand of the corrupted modern Indian youth for a Guru of high status in education and business and a ton of degrees and PhDs? In which case the spiritual height of such a Guru in modern, materialistic India is only of secondary importance.

Having said all this bear in mind I am just a beginner on the path struggling in the darkness of ignorance, and only able as a mere mortal to speculate. Who knows if Gurinder was just a place-holder, even a Satguru? and Jasdeep is an incarnation of Sat Purush? It seems improbable to me, as all my experences of Gurinder, and all that has been told to me about his behaviour and actions and statements are horrible.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 99.99

You wrote:
"At this time, China and North Korea need more saints and gurus than India."

This is your assessment of the situation. Politically, I might suggest America could use a few more. But all that is based on your and my judgement, and that is very limited and flawed, because we don't see the whole picture.

But it is just as likely that one or two of the people you don't see, behind the scenes, whom you live next to and work with every day are fully realized Saints.

We think that public figures represent the height of what humanity has to offer. I think we are quite wrong about that much of the time. The unheralded hero is usually the one doing the mundane jobs.

But it's a matter of personal judgement. In spirituality we are offered a means to supersede our own limited judgement and the harm such judgement causes. The limitation in such a practice is simply that this is primarily limited to superseding our own limited judgement, and not casting judgement on others.

We are raised up, from unhappiness to happiness, not by looking down upon anyone, but by looking upward, with hope. It's a discipline.

Fully focused on what is upward, towards our own next step, beyond our parochial thinking, beyond senses and body, beyond ourselves, directly into the light, into the divine sound, however vague or mysterious that light and sound is. It doesn't need to be anything we can dissect.

I don't believe that spirituality was meant to see the ills of others, even ourselves. It is just a means to survive, to balance the darkness with light, and to establish a portable foundation for happiness that keeps us closer to Ahimsa under all conditions.

And this is a daily practice, even a moment-by-moment practice, of staying connected to something beyond judgement. To stay with bliss, within ourselves: staying focused on that. For that to happen we must relinquish our own judgements of others, even ourselves. It's all forgiveness, 24 x 7, 365 days, 360 degrees. We have to limit the hours of the day we are judging and judging. So, naturally, we are thus constrained to using out limited mental capacity to focus on something that is just beyond the reach of mentation but fully within the grasp of experience.

Part of spirituality is learning to listen and see better. That's within, and without.

So, I'm not sure how many Saints we need. One is perfect for me. I don't need any others. But I love and honor them all. They all have beautiful and uplifting things to say that help me, personally, adhere to the practices above.

And when a new one comes to light, I can only say "Welcome Brother!" with some excitement to learn their way of thinking about life. Everyone thinks just a little differently. Everyone filters their experience in a slightly different way. I'm always excited to learn about that.

We call it spirituality, but who really knows what it is? I just think it's a better, more natural way to live: to choose hope and happiness not as some vague idea occasionally, but as a full-time practice, discipline, profession.

Maybe we need to strive to be a little more saint-like, at least in the sense that we are working to overcome ourselves, at least the petty thinking parts of ourselves, and connect with each other on a higher platform of respect and kindness, even for people who live quite differently than we do.

Maybe the test of our own capacity for happiness is the degree we don't cast negative judgements of anyone, and even on ourselves.

Can't hurt to try it, right?

Might be a formula for happiness.

[99.99]

Dear Spence Tepper,
you could not understand the central idea of ​​my statement. What I meant to say was that China needs spirituality and guru's rather than India. You could not understand my point completely. You have written such a long essay on spirituality but in India spirituality has been in abundance since the beginning. Other countries need this so-called spirituality more than India but those countries like China understand this hypocrisy very well. Radha Swami Satsang Beas and Baba Ji also wanted to spread their hypocrisy in China and Hong Kong but due to the strict stand of the communist government there, they ran away with their tails between their legs.

My question was that why do all saints, mahatmas, gurus etc. embody in India only? You wrote a long article but ignored this question.

[um]

@ 99.99

>> My question was that why do all saints, mahatmas, gurus etc. embody in India only? You wrote a long article but ignored this question.<<

Hinduism

ALL religions with are born iin and from India have their roots in Hinduism ..even advaita and Buddhism etc.

Next question ..why could hinduism develop in India and not elsewhere.

[um]

@ 99.99

And ... If you want to have a rich class, a very rich class and huge amounts of poor people that create that wealth, live together in peace, you have come up with an narrative. ... something like killing and be killed for the king, democracy , the flag

You have to create a narrative that makes people feel comfortable in serving and working for others without loosing your own dignity.

Is it not strange that mystic experiences that have become the birth of all major religions, are always related to the problems these people were facing at the time?!

Abraham etc was spoken to by a messenger of god, while they were a nomadic tribe in search for a place to stay?

Christianity was born when the same tribes, setled down by those days, were invade by the romans and were longing for freedom, ...a kingdom of their own.

Different so called spiritual schools were related to religious etc groups fighting one another in India ..Kabir, Nanak etc

They all came with the SAME solution ... people, what you seek outside and will never be found, the suffering you experience etc can easily be found inside, and better

You see, if it is not brought to the people in that way and there is nothing in it for them, they, te people will never lend an ear to anybody.

f all believers, seekers etc etc, instead of finding truth with this or that teaching and/or teacher would search their own heard for the motive to be interested in any religious movement, they will find that it is always related to their way of live .... those that have interested in ontological questions pf themselves and the world are scarce

Religions and spiritual movements are functional psychological, sociological, cultural tools ..imho. ..like political systems, capitalism, communism, democracy, feudal rule, tribal rule etc etc.

BUT ....you have to believe them and love them, and be willing to kill and bekilled for them, to be fruitfull.

AND ..there lies the problem. ..most do want the fruits without payment

AND ..with my way of thinking , there is no hope for any community to survive. These narratives are a MUST ..those that undermine these narratives with their quests for truth have no idea imho what they are doing.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 99.99
You asked
"My question was that why do all saints, mahatmas, gurus etc. embody in India only?"

Only in title. In every region there are Saints. They may be recognized as such, or not. There have been Saints among scientists and bankers, and Saints in the church, mosque and synagogue. Even among Atheists, there are Saints. They are not in abundance, but they are around. In China too. It's a part of the human condition for some. Yes there is plenty of spirituality in China as well. And in Russia, and in Africa, and in America.

You really think they are restricted to India?

Look for it. Be willing to see them, though they may not have a title, nor followers, nor flowing robes.

India's tradition honoring spirituality is a wonderful, diverse one. But it is no more or less spiritual than any other place. When you find a true Guru, of course, then you are at the source. But the title might be different.

If you need it official, then I'd say India has done a wonderful job officializing that. Then anyone in China or America can seek it in India. So many have over the centuries, and with good reports.

[99.99]

Dear Spence Report

You still did not fully understand the meaning of my statement. There are 2500 registered Deras in Punjab and the same number of Gurus. Punjab is a small state in India. Spirituality has been present in Punjab for hundreds of years. Spirituality has spread a lot in Punjab and India. Now Radha Swami Gurus should find a country to spread spirituality where there are more poor, illiterate and stupid people than in India. Spirituality will be unimaginably successful in that country.

If despite centuries of spiritualism, Punjab still needs another new Guru, then it is a big failure. Please free India from this so-called spiritualism and move these Dera's to some other country and destroy the people there. India has already been destroyed enough by this hypocrisy.

[La Madrugada]

When Baba Charan Singh expired , Gurinder Singh Dhillon was working in a hotel in Spain . Local RSSB branch members told him he was new Dera Beas head & took him to airport for going to India, he was playing Punjabi bhangra songs enroute to airport . He was a well known womaniser in hotel trade . Main reason he did not like people taking his photos in earlier days of Guruship.

Posted by: Baba Land Grab | September 02, 2024 at 01:14 PM

@Baba Land Grab:

When Charan Singh expired Gurinder was working for The Balani Company in Málaga, selling watches, a low profile job, he worked in a hotel in Delhi before.

[um]

@ 99.99

>>If despite centuries of spiritualism, Punjab still needs another new Guru, then it is a big failure.<<

End the poverty and the rule of class, and there will be no religion.

There are hardly other countries to be found where the difference between the extreme wealth of the elite and the rest is so great as in India and other Asian countries.

That said ..one can ask who is mentally, over all, more happy, brings smiles on the faces.

[um]

@ 99.99

And ..as a side track .... have a look at the content of movies and popular music produced
by Bollywood and Hollywood and how that relates to the socio- cultural infrastructure of both countries.

Nowhere is the power of imagination/believe and other mental powers so developed as in India. ...and ... it is all related to poverty an social structure.

[777]

It s just FREQUENCIES and TUNING

Even a little higher the environment can be seen adapting
to our consciousness fir1st RSSB Heaven
Psychics see that here to : hence QE
but brains often "translate" a conscious pattern
a windmill in a caffee mill
So you need only the pure unwavering Frequency : LOVE
is here A:432Hz
Try it
Therefore some must be in hell - the will make it

[777]

C o n v e r t e d to divine 432Hz -

Hear the difference 

My Funny Valentine - Mishael


https://x.com/Ankhaton/status/1767965466016854425/video/1

Also classic there

Change yr feel
Yuja Liest Oslo

https://x.com/Ankhaton/status/1734211407258775725/video/1

[Vibhor Verma]

I think Brian literally jerks off to every new development related to RSSB. Such a low life. He presumably wasted away his 30 years by doing a 30 minute formality every day. A lazy narcissist fuck, who is now out to avenge for the inner experiences that were just not handed to him on a platter.

[Chiro]

@Vibhor Verma
Only those who have known love can know real disappointment and a sense of betrayal and loss when that which was loved rots. Brian was initiated by Maharaj Charan Singh and whatever his state of mind then and now that fact cannot be taken away that a lifelong deep bond was formed with the Guru and the institution. T I once had the occasion to return to my homeland and observe the grand home of my youth demolished to create luxury seaside apartments. I was so furious I physically tore of the nameplate of the property which bore the same name of the mansion of my youth. Such attachments are very deep when formed at the most formative periods of our lives. Brian is not the only one, probably thousands of Western disciples including myself. even if they turned their backs on the Dera with the arrival and behaviour of Gurinder, remain with a deep attachment. IMO Brian is doing a vital service to his Master and his fellow disciples, howsoever he may be disappointed with the path. Brian's blog is the only source of important truths and developments about the progress of the RSSB. It is better to face the facts than to shoot the messenger.

[um]

@ chiro

facts?

Facts are meaningless and valueless.
People attribute meaning and value according their conditioning.

Seen from within the narrative of Sant Mat as presented to you and other readers here, these so called facts can have an complete other meaning and value.

Just to use an example, MCS used to say ..It is all in his hands.
What seems to be "not done" from the worldly point of view might be the right thing to do from the spiritual point of view related to a given narrative.

There are many, that know of these facts to and for whom it is no problem whatsoever ...they go on with their live.

If one loves or the christian teachings and a clergy men is found to do illegal things, be he a priest bishop, cardinal or even the pope, should that change the devotion and love for these teachings? I do not think so

If a politician is found to be a criminal, is there something wrong with democracy and should one stop living these ideals etc ..i do not think so.

Mcs often stated that if there is anything in the teaching or the organisation, that doesn't suit you, please lay it aside, stay away from satsang even etc etc ,.. but go on to fulfill what you your self have pledge to do.

People should retrace their own motives related to asking for initiation ... these motives had nothing to do with anything else but the one that asked for initiation.

People asked for their OWN reasons for initiation...how can the behavior of others come inbetween.????

[um]

@ Chiro

It is an psychological issue.

People came for their own reasons to the path and asked for initiation.
If one day, for their own reasons, the have enough, and they would discuss it with me I would remain mum

BUT

If somebody would tell me that he is turning his back upon what he pledged himself to do, for batter and worse, because of something OUTSIDE him or her self, I would warn them not to do it as it will hunt them the rest of their life.

They are in fact punishing themselves for a perceived wrong done by somebody else.
That is psychological not in the best interest of a person.

Even becoming an atheist will not help that inside nagging go away.

[Disappointed]

@Vibhor Verma

How are you representing your guru in the best light by speaking this way? Is this how satsangis are supposed to speak of others? You are free to not visit this page yet here you are. Why are you here if your faith in your guru is so strong? They say in satsang all the time to not engage in arguments over these types of issues online and to not click on any links other than rssb.org and the official YouTube channel. If you're so faithful to the path, why are you here?

[Brian Hines]

Vibhor Verma, your comment reflects the great spiritual wisdom that you have gained from all of your devoted practice. In one word: NOTHING.

Just to be sure that no one misses what you said, I'll repeat it here. Your ability to insult is actually pretty bad, I have to say, speaking as someone who has gotten way more creative insults over the years. Check some of them out. You really need to work on your insult repertoire.
https://hatechurchless.blogspot.com/2009/04/ranters-heres-your-chance-to-vent.html#comment-form
--------------------------
I think Brian literally jerks off to every new development related to RSSB. Such a low life. He presumably wasted away his 30 years by doing a 30 minute formality every day. A lazy narcissist fuck, who is now out to avenge for the inner experiences that were just not handed to him on a platter.

[La Madrugada]

Brian's blog is the only source of important truths and developments about the progress of the RSSB. It is better to face the facts than to shoot the messenger.

Posted by: Chiro | September 06, 2024 at 09:58 AM

Well said Chiro, Brian's blog helped me a lot to cope with leaving RSSB after 25 years, and to realize that I am not the only one who felt disappointed. Perhaps I searched all these years for a substitute of my father with whom I had a bad relationship. Many satsangis told me that they had the same problems with their fathers.

[manjit]

La Madrugada wrote: "Brian's blog helped me a lot to cope with leaving RSSB after 25 years, and to realize that I am not the only one who felt disappointed. Perhaps I searched all these years for a substitute of my father with whom I had a bad relationship. Many satsangis told me that they had the same problems with their fathers."

Yes, the role Brian and his blog have played in the RS sphere, in both disseminating RS based news and info, but far more importantly allowing satsangis to virtually congregate and communicate, and by extension as you say find connection to others who feel the same doubts etc, is a truly wonderful thing, and he has been praised and thanked many, many time for this, including by myself.

Ironically, however, I find a lot of "ex" satsangis have a tendency to simply dilute that human tendency to look for a "father figure" in the "Perfect Living Master", and then project it somewhat onto critics of RS, like Brian or David Lane. The tendency to be sheeple still remains.

With all due respect to Brian, and this is absolutely no fault of his on any level, a worldwide religion with millions of followers should be able to organise some sort of social forum not centered around and completely controlled by a specific personality such as Brian's. The yahoo group Radhasoamistudies was an excellent example of this format, but it has died a slow death over the years/decades.

There were some great, free flowing discussions there in the past though. Blast from my past from 15 odd years ago in relation to your comments above re. father figures. Always interesting to reread your own comments from 10, 15, 20 years ago. Always good for a laugh!:

"This particular *aspect* of the archetype, the spiritual relationship between guru & disciple, may actually (to play devils advocate in this discussion - to highlight the illusory nature of our conceptual paradigms, which is seldom realised) be a DEVIANT of a more primal archetype!?

The patriarchal or matriarchal 'archetype', I suggest, is FAR more universal, inclusive etc, than the sub-variant (deviant? ;-) spiritual guru / discple 'archetype'. (how many of use who followed an RS guru devoutly had father issues?)

Father - teacher - boss - president - guru - king. Can you spot the the thread of a more primal archetype than that of just spiritual guru? Perhaps something that may actually TRANSCEND the spiritual guru archetype, something MORE universal?"

"Most humans like to be led by the nose and are frightened of independance & freedom. Imagine! Facing this vast, cold, chaotic universe without a guru/father/teacher/political leader/charismatic person/husband or wife etc to hold our hands and lead us, and a nice, neat conceptual model to make sense of it all!! Oh the horror, the horror!"

"Yes - I would wager that most people who follow a guru figure *devotedly* have specific father-related issues slightly more disproportiantly than in the general public.

Contrary to what Greg said, I do believe there are a fair few 'good' fathers out there who leave their off-spring with little or no father issues that need to be resolved through following a guru.

I bet the proportion of these sorts of people in RS are few and far between......???"

https://groups.io/g/RadhasoamiStudies/message/113937

I think there is an explanation as to the current lack of discussions online re RS, and the paucity of venues to do so. Please watch this sketch for an explanation, but replace the parrot with "Radhasoami faith and practice":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218

[Curious Seeker]

To make sense of various successor ships one can deploy the framework of the change in axis of spirituality.

Baba Sawan Singh Ji had predicted that the axis of spirituality will one day shift from the east to the west. The future PLMs will no longer be available In the East (India, etc). The future PLMs will be born in the West (especially in the USA).

According to the time frame provided, this should have started happening from the 90s to about now.

The other thing that was said was that PLMs can appoint administrators as successors to keep the line going for the sake of maintenance of the Dera/organization.

It was also said that no line ever has more than 5 PLMs in it and 5 PLMs is a very rare exception. Usually it is 1 or 2 in a line. Some rare cases it can go to 3 or 4. Then the spiritual line dies and is replaced by a religious line. Initiations continue to happen but slowly spirituality gets replaced.

[Friend]

Vibhor, please do not use profanity for any soul as it is not representative of what RS teaches.
RS teaches one love, One God and we are all children of the Shabad.

Brian Hines, I am sure is a great man, with many positive qualities. I know he did a great service to RSSB by writing the well known and revered book Life is Fair. Just because his beliefs may not align with your Vibhor, does not mean we should slander him. We are all on our own journey to reach the One Power that placed us here in the first place.

Peace and RS Greetings to all.