Let's make sense of the strange RSSB guru succession episode

I'm used to strange things happening in the realm of religion.

After all, this is where we humans believe in the strangest things: a virgin birth, commandments issuing from God, and in the case of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), an India-based religion, a guru who is God in Human Form.

At least, that's how the RSSB teachings describe the guru, a fact that I'm well aware of, since I was an active member of RSSB for thirty-five years. 

So when the RSSB guru announces a successor, this is a big deal in the eyes of RSSB devotees. It's also newsworthy otherwise, since RSSB has enough followers to be a significant political force in India, especially in the Punjab, where the organization's headquarters is located.

As noted in my first post about the recent strange RSSB guru succession episode, "RSSB guru appoints Jasdeep Singh Gill as successor," traditionally this has happened much differently than what transpired this time.

Always, to my knowledge, the RSSB process has worked this way. If anyone can point out why I'm wrong, do so in a comment; I don't claim to be an expert in the history of RSSB.

A guru of advancing years makes known who their successor will be in a document that isn't made public until after the guru's death. Then it is opened and the RSSB membership learns who the new guru is. The guru is inaugurated, so to speak, through a turban-tying ceremony (Dastar-bandi) that's part of the Sikh tradition.

But the current RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, did things differently.

His chosen successor, Jasdeep Singh Gill (a distant relative), was announced while Dhillon was very much alive. Because this meant that two RSSB gurus were alive at the same time, considerable confusion resulted from the succession announcement.

This official succession announcement must have been approved by Dhillon. It seems inconceivable that something so important would have been approved by someone else without Dhillon's knowledge of the wording.

The first paragraph of this announcement says that Dhillon is both the Satguru (true guru) and Patron of RSSB. Satguru refers to the spiritual side of the guru's duties. I take it that Patron refers to the organizational/management side of the guru's duties. Gill has been nominated as Patron, effective immediately from September 2, 2024.

The second paragraph of the announcement goes further, saying that Gill also shall succeed Dhillon as the Satguru of RSSB and will have the authority of giving initiation. Not surprisingly, this caused most people, journalists included who wrote stories about the RSSB succession, to conclude that Gill not only has become the Patron of RSSB, he also is the Satguru. 

That conclusion is reinforced by the third paragraph, which says that Dhillon (Baba Ji) wishes and requests that the same love and affection he has received from RSSB members (Sangat) be given to Gill in carrying out his service (Sewa) "as Patron as well as Sant Satguru." Again, both: Patron and Satguru.

Note that the announcement says "For Information of Entire Sangat." That's every member of RSSB, who number in the millions worldwide, I believe. So this announcement was widely shared. I'm no longer a member of RSSB, but I got copies of it from several people who knew I'd be interested in it.

Also note that the subject of the announcement is "Nomination of Patron and Sant Satguru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas." Nothing in the announcement says that Gill has to wait to carry out these roles. The whole tone of the announcement is that this is happening now, not in the future.

However, the RSSB web site had a different tone. I'm not sure when the web site message was published. As mentioned below, I suspect it was considerably after the just-discussed announcement. 

The web site says that Gill will become the Patron of RSSB right away,  but will succeed Dhillon as the Satguru and have the authority to initiate people in the future. So Gill is an instant RSSB manager and a RSSB guru-in-waiting.

A story in The Tribune, "Day after flip-flop over Beas dera head, Dhillon and Gill share stage," indicates that the RSSB web site language is the result of Dhillon changing his mind about having Gill become the full-blown RSSB guru -- both Patron and Satguru, as the three paragraph announcement said was happening. 
Download Day after flip-flop over Beas dera head Dhillon and Gill share stage - The Tribune

Here's excerpts from the story.

A day after a ‘clarification’ over the occupant of ‘Sant Satguru’ (spiritual head) seat of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), ‘Babaji’ Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his successor, the newly appointed patron ‘Huzur’ Jasdeep Singh Gill, shared the stage in the presence of a large number of dera followers, who converged at its main centre located 45 km from here.

Gill (45), a distant relative of Dhillon, has been appointed the patron of all RSSB Societies with effect from September 2 as part of the succession plan. On the official website of RSSB, the title ‘Huzur’ has been prefixed with his name and a photograph showing Dhillon with Gill has also been uploaded.

It is learnt that confusion ensued among the followers about the sudden development and they started pouring in last evening when the announcement of Gill as successor was made.

...An earlier communiqué issued yesterday on behalf of Dhillon read: “He has received full support and love of Sangat. He has wished and requested same love and affection be given to Jasdeep Singh Gill as patron as well as Sant Satguru”.

Following this, the followers gathered at the dera, apparently upset at the impending exit of Dhillon. They seemed to be pacified only after the RSSB issued a ‘clarification’ late last evening, stating that Dhillon would continue to lead as ‘Sant Satguru’.

Devender Kumar Sikri, secretary of the RSSB, said Gill would eventually be the the Sant Satguru and will then have the authority of bestowing ‘Naam Daan’. “Till then, he will remain in attendance with Babaji (Dhillon) for the scheduled satsangs,” he said.

So it appears that Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the current RSSB guru, changed his mind about handing over to Gill both the spiritual and management duties of the guru. Nothing wrong with that. To me, it just shows that even a supposed "God in Human Form" makes mistakes and learns from experience. That's how it is with all people. Even gurus.

Comments

[Tore Sinkkonen]

Followed you for avile. It's interessting to see someone who is not an part of an organisation, not a part of this practice but still have so much interesst in something you have shun and disregard. You have more expert info and inside info in these thing that even the practitioners and put so much time in telling your opinion about this or that in rssb. What's your mission? To be seen and heard and regarded as someone important Mr. RSSB-Expert who have been there and done that? I think you have to analyse your self and why you put so much time and energy on things that don't matter for you - or does it still matter ? You seem to be very bound by the RSSB and the Guru , more bound to these things than normal people in RSSB are. BUT.. with this said....you'll 100% come up with a smart explanation to cover up your ass. You are the gift to mankind pointing out what is right and wrong in the guru world and are fueled by your readers negative experiences that comes as a proof that I am right, I did right.

When you really really shun something, you forget it, you get out of there 100% - but you are more interessted in the gurus do & don't than most people are - Maybe that's a way to contemplate on the guru? He and rssb is the center of your life and you put alot of time in him by reading and informing people [ you do seva? ]

🤣 will you post this on you site 🤣 you have to be pleased - I fueled you 🔥

[TruthPrevails]

@Tore Sinkkonen - You are retard.
Brian Hines has simply stopped following it. So have thousands of other people. He doesn't hate it as far as I am aware. That is your opinion. He simply does not believe it is a valid path to God Realisation - with good reason.

Why does he have to have a mission? He has simply created a platform for people to share their views -which is a healthy thing to do,
He is not obsessed with RSSB - he has far more posts on other topics not directly related to RSSB.
He also claims no authority - and simply shares his views, which he also says could be right or wrong. How is he claiming to be an authority?

I have read this blog for a while - He is not seeking validation of being right in his decision.

He does not shun RSSB - that is your opinion.

[TruthPrevails]

@Tore Sinkkonen
Brian states the following above:
"So it appears that Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the current RSSB guru, changed his mind about handing over to Gill both the spiritual and management duties of the guru. Nothing wrong with that. To me, it just shows that even a supposed "God in Human Form" makes mistakes and learns from experience. That's how it is with all people. Even gurus."

Doesn't sound like someone who shuns RSSB or the guru. He simply uses common sense to make sense of the situation.

He points out that the first release of information was clearly with his authority as it would be inconceivable that such an announcement would be made without his permission. After seeing the response to this - He changed his mind. Once again - a perfectly normal thing to do. He realised that it was too much too soon and would affect many people - so he changed the situation.

Just shows he is a human being. Not a God-man with divine powers, which he has never claimed.

The real reason this has been done in this way will become apparent in the future. For now, all we know is that he will continue in his current role as Guru - for an unknown period of time, and the new Guru will take over as Satguru when he exits. That exit could be the death of his physical body, or before - we just don't know.

What we DO know is that the sangat / followers have a hard time in just replacing him with a new guru instantly without any issues because they have formed a deep bond with him and this cannot be instantly transferred to the new guru no matter what He commands. People have emotions and are not machines.

You cannot command them to have the same love for the new Guru. If it happened that way, it would make a mockery of love and would mean the love for GSD is fake if it can simply be changed that quickly.

For some followers, they will never accept the new guru, just as many never accepted Jagat or Charan after Sawan. It's a deep connection.

[Brian Hines]

TruthPrevails, nicely said. You accurately grasped what I'm trying to do with this blog and how I view RSSB. I spent thirty-five mostly happy years as an active member of RSSB. Even though I'm no longer associated with the organization, I'm still interested in it, in somewhat the same way as I'm still interested in how my first wife is doing even though we got a divorce in 1990 after eighteen years of marriage. Love is a strong bond, even when it isn't felt any more the way it was in the past.

[HopeOurMediaImproves]

I don't think there was any change in mind by the current Guru at RSSB. There is a great difference between how the western world operates, there are ethics there, there is law, there is a system in place ( in comparison to India - not saying western law/system is perfect) and law/system makes sure that the justice finally prevails and the truth comes out. In India, unfortunately that was never the case and it operates more by plutocracy ( mob-o-cracy). Current scenario is that other deras have seen episodes where the Guru has passed away after giving a written registered will but mobs among their sangats have projected their own successor saying that the registered will is not true/fraudulent. This resulted in a scenario where that dera does not have a single successor even after that outgoing Guru before his death given a will by law. The law/system in India is so poor that it does not want to offend any group among the sangat and hence does not even want to enforce the registered will.
Given these learnings as of what is really transpiring in India, the current Guru at RSSB has probably made a decision to make the successor present on the stage and sit in his tutelage from the spiritual perspective but handles the day to day operations of the RSSB organization.
There were clarifications given during the day which made clear that the current Guru will continue his spiritual duties and there is a successor who will be present on stage.
Indian media does not probably understand the different of patron of RSSB vs Sant-Satguru at RSSB or the probably do now but since they blew their trumpet whole day that successor is taking over right now does not want to accept they were wrong.
The current arrangement will continue hopefully till the current guru decides to fully handover the duties to the successor. By that time the sangat will have accepted the successor and there will be a smooth transition.
Hope this helps.

[sant64]

"Nothing in the announcement says that Gill has to wait to carry out these roles. The whole tone of the announcement is that this is happening now, not in the future."

The whole "tone"?

Sorry, but we don't have actual evidence (words) that Gurinder "changed his mind" or "flipped-flopped." Any reasonable (i.e., not hyperbolic) reading of the RSSB announcement shows that Gurinder merely announced a successor before his death.

Every student of RSSB history knows that Beas gurus have legally appointed successors years before their eventual death. For example, we know that in the 1930s Sawan Singh appointed one of his followers (not Charan Singh) to take over should he die.

Let's reflect on that a bit: Does anyone believe it likely that Charan Singh never had a will (that is, no directives for succession) right up until his death in 1990? I don't. From 1952 to 1990, I believe Charan almost assuredly always had a will naming someone to be Beas Sat Guru. The alternative is believing that Charan had divine insight that he'd die in 1990 and not before. Perhaps that seems credible to the ardent satsangi, but not to me.

In modern times, the Beas gurus have likely always had set legal measures in place to assure that their chosen successor and not someone else assumes the Gaddi. In this case, the Beas guru is indeed setting a precedent by making that information public. But this can only be seen as a disturbing development with the help of bad-faith journalism.

[TruthPrevails]

The first statement could have made it clear that is was "succession planning" and that GSD would continue for the time being.

It did not. Why? because that was not the intention. The press release was clear. give the same love to the new guru.

the only thing that was not stated was . "This is it, guys, I'm outta here".

it was implied.

clearly there was a change of plans when the reaction became clear. GSD had little choice than to back down from the original position.

This way the sangat gets a chance to bond with the new guy. Then GSD can go on his merry way

Anyone who thinks there was no U-turn is short-sighted and needs new glasses.

sorry to be blunt but it's so obvious.
No organisation that big would make an obvious communication error as basic as that.

[TheRationalObserver]

My fair interpretation (as an unbiased observer not for or against Rssb), which negates Mr. Hines opinion (maybe biased against Rssb or GSD) that GSD changed his mind:

* Why would they write "Succeed him as Patron with IMMEDIATE effect" in the first paragraph and not Successor? Maybe because it means JSG will only be a Patron, not a Successor, for now, untill he's throned as succesor by GSD in future.

* And in the second para, it's written, "SHALL also succeed as Sant-Satguru" --- emphasis on Shall, means that in the future he will be a Successor, and this would be written in the first para if that'd not be the case, which then would eliminate the need for the word Patron.

* In same paragraph about namdan authority, which IMO in some organizations even Sewadars(volunteers or senior disciples) have that authority, so...

* At last it is mentioned that GSD has expressed about the love and support he receives; he wished and requested the same for JSG, not ordered as Mr. Hines said, which I think is not the case. I like to read these blogs, but Mr. Hines is seeing through a biased lens in this case. 

So, to conclude, I think it was not an oversight or GSD had changed his mind; why would he?

I think JSG is a representative of GSD for administrative duties for now. 

Note: open to criticism on my views; this is what seems rational to me. And I think it's a commendable decision by GSD even if we see him as the head of a multinational organization. 

[smanwani]

My guess is that Gurinder changed his mind after approving the letter as he didn't feel as powerful and mighty and decided he wanted to retain his power.

[Jim Sutherland]

It will be interesting to see how the 2 Gurus will give their combined Darshan to the Masses. Will they both be riding in the Popemobile together, or will they take turns, or even each have their own Popemobile.

[Neon]

This just goes to show that all this is a business. There is no spirituality. You really think that of 8 billion people on Earth, god shows up only in one family? For a "path" that says all teachings are the same itself has multiple branches...

RSSB is a family business.

[777]

I would have been more surprised
if Brian had been appointed, or Elon or Jim
but not really because The God in All of us
She has a lot of humour
Like Tulsi Sahib ---So Wow that had been happened

Off We must congrate The Two of them
and SEE THE THREE SOON

777

[777]

'''''''''''. Every student of RSSB history knows that Beas gurus have legally appointed successors years before their eventual death. For example, we know that in the 1930s Sawan Singh appointed one of his followers (not Charan Singh) to take over should he die.'''''''''''''

Again
A Super Sat Giru and All Souls
get knowledge as much as th GOD 432Hz
frequency deems id perfect - I can be nothing

But Tulsi said
The first passing here at the Kumbla Mela Fair
acknowledging Who I am;
I take to SK right away , . . . . and He DID
Next second the sweet Prostitute was a Super Sant Sat Guru
So Q.E. is really Believe See & LOVE
We All should
Other Sat Gurus get less
but many serendipities

Its the Frequency of our Consciousness - must be PURE

777

[sant64]

"So it appears that Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the current RSSB guru, changed his mind about handing over to Gill both the spiritual and management duties of the guru. Nothing wrong with that. To me, it just shows that even a supposed "God in Human Form" makes mistakes and learns from experience. That's how it is with all people. Even gurus."

Dear reader, please note that there's no evidence to support this claim that Gurinder Singh, in any respect, "changed his mind" about his succession appointment.

Please also note that the title "strange succession episode" is misleading. That's because there's nothing strange, or new, about an RSSB guru appointing a successor long before the guru dies.

That's because since the time of Sawan Singh, RSSB gurus have set legal directions -- wills -- to name someone to take over as guru should the current guru pass away.

How do we know this is so? For one thing, we know that Sawan Singh made a will in the 1930s to appoint a satsangi (who by the way was not Jagat Singh) to take over guru responsibilities. This means we have a precedent going back nearly 100 years of an RSSB guru deciding on a successor long before said guru died.

Most satsangis likely believe that the guru knows exactly when he's going to die, and only makes a will naming his successor right before that happens. I think that the probability that's so is quite low. It's far more likely that all Beas gurus since Sawan Singh have always had a will in place that names a successor.

We know that Sawan had wills in place in 1937, and even before then. Many have seen the 1937 will, which states that a separate will names a successor.

https://groups.io/g/RadhasoamiStudies/topic/the_consistency_of_sawan/75252419

Does it really make sense that Sawan would make a will regarding personal and dera property in 1937, but only wait until 1948 to make a will for a successor? If so, it would seem to belie the idea that Sawan knew precisely when he would die. For why make a will in 1937 when you know you'll live another 11 years?

So what's most probable is that Sawan *always* had a will in place naming a successor. The sangat just wasn't told about it.

The same is true for Jagat and Charan. Yes, many satsangis bought the story that these gurus only made their succession choice riiiight before departing for Sach Khand. But it's a story that's not very credible because we have the mystic Sawan himself making a will naming a successor over a decade before he died.

And so it follows as more probable than not that Jagat and Charan, in one of their first actions as Beas gurus, IMMEDIATELY got with a lawyer and executed a will naming a successor.

Look at Charan, who was himself a lawyer and a very pragmatic guy. Is it really believable that Charan didn't have a will in place naming a Satsangi to take over for him all during the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s?

The alternative is to believe that Charan, all his tenure as guru,, knew he'd live to 1990 and there was no risk whatever to not having a will in place. I for one doubt Charan would be so mystically reckless. He was very much aware of what happens to Deras when the successor is chosen by a committee. He likely always had a will to name someone to take over.

And so there's really nothing new or strange about how Gurinder chose his successor. It does make sense that such an announcement might alarm some satsangis, leading them to conclude that Gurinder was in poor health and had not long to live (a possibility that for all we know might be quite true).

But there's nothing in RSSB statements that indicate Gurinder is abdicating his guru role, or having abdicated, seizing back his status. Any speculation to that conclusion isn't based on actual evidence and is pure hyperbole.

[Appreciative Reader]

"Let's make sense of the strange RSSB guru succession episode"

Short version: Damage control.

-----

Longer version: GSD's greed, the huge wealth he's amassed while Guru, his bankrupting his nephews and having them rot in jail while he and his sons loll around in luxurious villas all over the world, his criminality (which technically isn't actually criminality yet, given it's not been proven in the courts, but still), all of that, over all of these years, reported everywhere, it was starting to very seriously take down the image of the organization. So they desperately started looking for damage control measures.

And hit on the perfect solution: Bring in this guy, with impeccable IIT-MIT-Cambridge qualifications, a blue-chip engineer who can mint money honestly in the corporate if he cares to, and sit this guy down on the gaddi. ...And why would he do it? Well, the prestige of it. The ego-massage of it. And maybe he honestly sincerely believes in the RSSB narrative, and actually believes he's being made apprentice-GIHF. Or some combination of all of this. So he agrees, and steps in.

But GSD's still alive and well. He may live on for years now. And probably he wants to sidle off unobtrusively, to enjoy his wealth in peace and comfort without the hassle of religious crazies throwing themselves at him.

So, this halfway-house thing.

And who knows, it may work out. New guy seems honest --- or at least, given his rock solid IIT-MIT-Cambridge background, he has no reason not to be, unlike GSD. He's probably got great organizational savvy, given his corporate experience. No reason why he shouldn't make a huge success of it.

...Eh, what's that? Spirituality? Marking souls? Carrying off people to Sach Khand? Can he do that? ...Like I'd said, good questions. Like, you know, flapping his wings and flying? Farting rainbows? Maybe if he's not just unicorn genes but dragon genes as well, then maybe doing the dracaris thing? Will he be able to do all of that? ...Yep, good questions, those. (No, I mean it. Actually good questions.)

-----

So yeah, that's how I make sense of it.

(Disclaimer: I'm just gassing away about this, I don't actually know. Just, basis what I've come to know about RSSB, this makes sense. I mean, it seems obvious, given what we know. ...But of course it's just guesswork, and of course I could be completely mistaken, goes without saying.)

[Chiro]

@TruthPrevails The problem here is that a number of people are confusing the previous four perfect Masters at the Dera with Gurinder who is not a perfect master but a CEO manager, and his successor who is also a CEO manager. Neither of the last two are God-realised or even Self-realised, they are businessmen. Charan Singh had no worthy successor but could not halt such a large institution overnight. When a line of gurus runs out the kindest thing is to let the institute keep running for the sake of its dependants knowing that true seekers will go elsewhere for a Satguru, in this case most probably to Tarn Taran. And so the last master can appoint just a competent manager. RSSB is nothing more now than a cult and a fraud, and to give any respect or substance to the fake guru management is disingenuous to real parmarthis. Yes, Maharaj Charan Singh Ji will take care of all those given Nam until RSSB has so much rotted at the head it breaks up. The advice to seekers is to have nothing to do with this place and look elswhere for initiation, and for former initiates of Maharaj Charan Singh to cease to lend any credibility to the RSSB as being in any way a spiritual organisation. We must now stop justifying the family Mafioso that now comprise it’s leadership.

[Jim Sutherland]

When in doubt, just ask AI .

So I asked AI: and AI gave a very rational answer.

built with BatGap interviews!
RSSB now has a 45 year old , highly educated appointed Successor by its present Patron, who is retiring. The Group is an International Organization with Satellite branches in many countries, in addition to its 8,000 permanent followers who live at the Beas Headquarters. Skeptics challenge the Spiritual knowledge of the new Master, but not his Business knowledge. The question is,………which is the most important of the new Master’s Resume that has the greatest significance of preserving the longest survival and increased growth potential of this large Organization, …..his lack of Spiritual experiences, or his Elite Business experiences and Degrees?
Your question touches on a key issue faced by many spiritual organizations: the balance between spiritual authenticity and effective management in ensuring longevity and growth. To explore this, let's consider a few aspects:

SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE AND AUTHENTICITY
Connection to Tradition: In spiritual communities, the authenticity and depth of the leader's spiritual experiences often serve as a crucial link to the tradition's lineage and teachings. Followers may look to the leader not only for guidance but also as a living embodiment of the spiritual ideals they aspire to.
Inspirational Leadership: A leader with profound spiritual experiences can inspire and uplift the community, fostering a deeper sense of purpose and connection among followers. This can enhance the community’s cohesion and commitment.
BUSINESS ACUMEN AND ORGANIZATIONAL MANAGEMENT
Sustainability: In modern times, the survival and expansion of a spiritual organization can greatly benefit from strong business acumen. Effective management can ensure financial stability, efficient operation of satellite branches, and successful execution of large-scale projects.
Growth Potential: A leader with elite business experiences and degrees may be better equipped to navigate the complexities of running an international organization, leveraging networks, and utilizing strategic planning to foster growth.
BALANCING BOTH ASPECTS
Integration of Skills: Ideally, a leader should embody both spiritual depth and business acumen. While it’s challenging to find someone who excels equally in both areas, the integration of these skills can create a more resilient and thriving organization.
Support Structures: If the new Master lacks in one area, it’s crucial to build a support structure that complements their strengths. For instance, spiritual advisors can help in maintaining the spiritual integrity of the organization, while experienced managers can handle business operations.
REFLECTIVE INQUIRY
Community Values: What does the community value more deeply? Is there a stronger emphasis on spiritual experiences or on the practical aspects of running the organization?
Adaptability: How adaptable is the organization to changes in leadership style? Can it evolve to integrate both spiritual and business expertise?
PARADOX AND POSSIBILITIES
Paradox of Leadership: Sometimes, a leader's perceived weakness can become their greatest strength. A business-savvy leader might bring in innovations that create new avenues for spiritual growth, while a spiritually profound leader might inspire followers to support the organization's practical needs more robustly.
STORIES AND METAPHORS
The Gardener and the Garden: Imagine a garden. The gardener’s wisdom in nurturing the plants (spiritual knowledge) is as vital as knowing how to manage resources (business skills) to ensure the garden thrives season after season. Both roles are essential for the garden’s long-term flourishing.
FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS
What strategies can be implemented to ensure the new Master’s business skills complement the spiritual needs of the community?
How can the community support the new Master in deepening their spiritual experiences?
What role can spiritual advisors or councils play in maintaining the spiritual integrity of the organization?
ACTIONABLE NEXT STEPS
Mentorship Programs: Establish mentorship programs where the new Master can learn from seasoned spiritual leaders within the tradition.
Advisory Council: Form an advisory council with members skilled in both spiritual and business domains to provide balanced guidance.
Community Engagement: Engage the community in open dialogues to address concerns and expectations, fostering a unified approach to the new leadership.
Each spiritual journey is unique, and every organization has its path to navigate. Trust in the process and remain open to the unfolding possibilities.

[Jim Sutherland]

Not that my opinion is of any value to any member, here, but in addition to the minor traces of spirituality I have been graced with, I DO have a solid 60 years of experience in the Industrial Business world, and I think BBJ’s appointment of his new Successor is a very wise decision, at this stage of RSSB’s existence and position among the other Branches competing for new followers while retaining residual followers.
If I was the CEO of RSSB, ……( OMG, SPARE ME ! ), ….and was close to retirement, I certainly would welcome the talent, Business Savy, and acceptance, of any one of Guru Gill’s stature and young age, than any other other old, wrinkled, worn out , crusted Guru with poor health , regardless of his “presumed” Spiritual knowledge, ( which realistically, no one else knows any one else’s spiritual knowledge.) to continue the longevity and success of RSSB as long in the future as possible.

[God Of Baruch Spinoza]

Radha Swami Satsang Beas Dera, Tarn Taran wala Dera, Dera Sacha Sauda, ​​Agra Wale, Swami Baag, all of them are the same. Their teachings and working style is the same. They are selling the same old religion in the garb of spirituality to the less educated, simple and poor people of India by scaring them with hell, misery, poverty and karma.

All religions, modern spirituality, support the theory of Karma. This theory has exploited about 50 percent of the Indian population for the last 1000 years. The caste, racial discrimination and atrocities on 50 percent of the Indian population have been exploited by saying that they are the result of their deeds of past lives. All religious gurus can also be included in this who support the theory of Karma. Radha Soami Satsang Beas is also one of them. This dirty game of such fraudulent institutions has been going on for hundreds of years and is still continuing.

[um]

@ God

Can you find a better theory that encompasses and explains the facts of live.?

In fact all humans believe in it, whether they know about the theory or not, like all people understand the workings of gravity without knowing the the word or the [ scholarly] description of it

[Chiro]

@Jim Sutherland
I think you fail to see the real value of the Sant Mat path which is about the return of the soul to it's original origin in a region which has been called Sach Khand. Only a mystic who has reached that place and the regions above of Alakh, Agam and Anami, and whose residence is Radhsoami Dham, the highest stage of the absolute Lord of the soul, can take his disciple home. The vast region of darkness, estimated at 800 billion miles in circumference called Mahasunn can only be crossed by a master personally guiding the soul, rather as a man in the darkness of a moonless night is led by a friend walking ahead bearing a lantern across a plain. Throughout history this has been the case with the Saints. Under no circumstance are highly qualified businessmen fit to carry out that function or to head up such an ashram. Gurinder's case is just the fag end of an institution when the line of masters comes to an end. His job is simply to look after an institution with a large number dependants. Gurinder and Jasdeep's job is not to spread or grow or to enlarge the RSSB, it is simply allow the process of conclusion and decay to take place more gradually until such time as no real seeker will have anything to do with it and the personal behaviour human leaders, subject to sin through the five senses make the place a laughing stock and a despised cult. He was give the privilege of giving Nam only for this purpose but. As an unrealised soul he is in no position to properly confer that privilege on anyone one else and should he do so his Guru has to take the weight of caring for the future of those souls. All this will become apparant as the RSSB continues to spiritually decay. Most people today are too young to remember the aura of love, peace, light, purity and magnificence of the presence of a real Satguru. Of course RSSB on its highly qualified CEO future track is now on a steady course to become a successful cohabit with Transcendental Meditation or Scientology. Indeed, these CEOs will probably further the expansion of AI as a means for meditation, eventually ending in satsangis likely being charged for personal tech equipments and services, services which will not bring them spiritual liberation.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Chiro,…..do you really, really strive to spend Eternity in Sach Khand, or any of the 3 levels above it, ending in Anami? If you have read any of the Teachings of the last Soamibagh Guru , who died in 1947, i.e. , Babuji, he said that NO SOUL, could remain in pure Spirit, for eternity, because ALL souls loose Consciousness , as soon as they arrive there. And he said NONE can remain there, because ALL Spirit seeks Consciousness, in order to create, and MUST descend from Anami to levels of Materiality in order to fulfill their desire to create. Actually, that teaching verifies the Gnostic Teaching of Brahm being the Creator, Demiurge, or Charan’s Teaching of the Universal Mind being the Creator and Agent of all of our minds.
When Rationality really grabs a firm hold on us, I am certain that NONE of us, including you, really desire to return to any area of Pure Spirit where you loose Consciousness and want to remain unconscious for Eternity.

[Chiroo]

@Jim Sutherland
I would counter interpretation of the note-taker of that discourse, though to be fair I have not seen your quote nor do I remember that paragraph in 'Phelp's Notes of Baubji's discourses.' We have been explained that a disciple of a Satguru bears the same privileges as his master at the highest stages including not only the ability by invitation of its Lords to visit the three upper levels at will, but to entirely merge with the consciousness of RadhaSoami (this title for the information of other readers than ourselves being just an earthly given name for one who is nameless). Faqir Chand I believe gave some good information on this explaining not that the bubble of consciousness which constitutes what we generally call our souls, or a drop of the ocean as it has also been called, disappears or evaporates or ceases to be. He states the level of mergeness at that stage is so unspeakable great that it a surety that it will be the ultimate home of the Satgurus. There is nothing there which resembles anything below but that does not mean tthat there is nothing, it simply means it is beyond any comprehension using such terms.

However, what the text as you have retold it of Babuji Maharaji's discourse seems to miss, is that individuation of the soul at the will of that soul is still assessable, and so Masters leap in and out of that state as long as their duties to their flock remain and they must needs do business in regions below. This explains why you are very unlikely to find long dead saints like Nanak or Swamiji Maharaj or Tulsi Sahib or I would opine Jesus when you reach Sat Lok, because on completion of their work they discard their individuation and take permanent abode in the supreme consciousness which Babuji Maharaj defines as "The Supreme Father is a vast homogeneous ocean of pure spirit. He is perfect, sufficient in Himself to Himself, in an ecstatic state of love and bliss. Before creation He alone was conscious. There was none but He to see and none but Him to be seen. There was only the Lord immersed in His own rapturous bliss."

i.e the stage to which you seem to refer is the total drowning of the individual consciousness into the greater consciousness in which the price of the loss of individuation is to become RadhaSoami Himself forever. There is no question of Universal Mind here or any wish to create anything. At that time Maharaji was discussing stages well below Sach Khand in the region of Brahm. No, I can assure you based on the teaching of the saints that consciousness is eternal. BTW Maharaj Charan Singh and Baba Sawan Singh have stated that the Guru will take the same form as the human form in Sat Lok in order to meet His disciples there as long as there are disciples to arrive.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Chiro, accurate summary. You obviously have read the passages in Babuji’s books where he says Spirit can NEVER remain unconcious. Charan Singh kind of flip flops around Sach Khand , by saying the 3 realms above it are only sub levels of Sach Khand. He kind of insinuates that by merging in to Sach Khand , souls do not loose their individuality, how ever by merging, how can all individuals stay individual by becoming ONE? THAT is the Conundrum I have never come to terms with, or accept, to this day. I was NEVER God, am not now, nor ever desire to be. In the Bible, Lucifer made that miscalculation, and was demoted to becoming the Creator Demiurge, I.e. Kal Nirunjun.

[Chiro]

@Jim Sutherland,
Jim, I can assure Maharaji never said such a thing. It would be inhuman of me to ask for a source because we hear so many things, or come across so many statements, one cannot remember where we got the information from. Do bear in mind that vast numbers of even Western initiates of Maharaji are unaware of the existence of Alakh, Agam and Anami or RadhaSoami Dham and think Sach Khand is the final stage, all they ever talked about in my time was Sach Khand. And that is just to do with inattention, people have busy family and career lives and don't spend their time reading the more advanced books like Prof. Lek Raj Puri's Radha Soami Teachings or his Mysticism Vol 2 which go into immense detail about such things, nor have the studied Sar Bachan Poetry which is unavailable in English from RSSB and must be obtained personally from Mrs Maheshwari at Dera Bagh in Agra. So they don't and study the ins and outs of the inner regions. What is most likely here is that Maharaji said that Alakh, Agam and Anami were below RadhaSoami Dham and the person thought He was talking about Sach Khand. Souls don't merge into Sach Khand they simply spend time there. I would posit that the vast number of even Charan Singh's satsangis, particularly the ladies, will be perfectly happy to stay in Sach Khand enjoying their own identity, enjoying the constant and ever-changing entertainments and meeting their friends. No doubt we merge in and out of Sat Purush in Sach Khand in the same way a lover and beloved in this world merge when embracing each other and then become separate, because it is Love we merge into and God is Love. But the quality of mergence in the ocean of RadhaSoami Dham is indescribable. So say the saints, and only the recent ones because in the distant past such information was not widely given out by the Sants. Lucifer is testament to the fact that souls even in Sach Khand have free will. That is why a number of naughties end up being kicked out of Sach Khand and reside quite happily yet with the pain of being denied God, in prison cells in the region of Sunn until rescued by a perfect master as he passes through that stage accompanying his disciple upwards, and then petitioned for a pardon from Sat Purush by that Master.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Chiro,…..
Question 280: I have a question about some things I have read about the higher regions. Some times it seems that Sat Nam is three levels lower than Radha Soami.

Charan Singh answers: “ I’ll just explain to you. I follow your point. Generally, saints mention five regions. But some saints have so divided the last region, Anami. Actually it is one region. Some have subdivided it, some have left it as one region. It makes no difference at all. And some mystics have referred to only two regions: below Brahm and above Brahm—below the realm of mind and above the realm of mind. They do not even deal with five regions. But their path is the same; their destination is the same.
Page 213, “Spiritual Perspectives” Volume II.

Kal: page 41, Spiritual Perspectives, Vol. 1
Question: If every thing really is a part of God, and Kal is a part of God, how did he become such an evil enemy to man?

Charan answers: “This is all God’s creation. In order to run the universe, he needs all sorts of forces to keep people here.if Kal had not been here, we would all have gone back to the Lord again. This universe would not have existed. In order that the universe should go on, he wants such things, so that we get under their sway and forget the Lord; but still, he has also kept a way or path so that we can get release from this domain and go back to him. If he does not want this universe, it cannot exist even for a day. It is here, because he wants it here, and what ever you see, all forces have come from him.”

[Jim Sutherland]

In Spiritual Letters, Jamail Singh said yo Sawan Singh,…..’The Moment your are initiated, you go to Sach Khand, and be one God. “ Charan quoted that comment in Vol. 2 of Spiritual Perspectives, verifying that all initiates of Perfect Masters are God!
Dr. Ishwar Puri was also fond saying we are “ the Totality of Consciousness, where we never left. We have only forgotten it.”

[Chiro]

@ Jim Sutherland Yes, I said four, I'd just been reading Prof Puri saying four, but on reflection five would have been better.

[TruthPrevails]

a number of references have been made to the assertion that Sawan singh appointed a successor many years earlier.
there seems to be some great secrecy as to who this was.

why all the secrecy?

if you know who it was, say so

[Curious Seeker]

Baba Sawan Singh Ji had named Bhagat Singh (brother of Jagat Singh) as the successor. This was updated to Jagat Singh when Bhagat Singh passed away. There is a reason behind it and was Explained by Ishwar Puri Ji in a private gathering.

Ishwar puri Ji had explained that those souls who wake up to the 5th plane consciousness merge into the totality of consciousness. Every soul is supposed to wake up to the 5th plane only (ultimate for the soul). The sub levels - Alakh, agam, Anami are levels for the totality to experience and not for individuated souls.

[El]

So NOBODY THINKS IT IS odd that Baba Gurinder Singh Ji does not make this announcement himself, or waits until he can, or have someone type it up and HE signs his own name to it.
NObody?

It’s like a slew of celebrities are found hanging by a rope and OTHER PEOPLE say they did it themselves (or ‘drown’ in a tub). And no-one questions this.

When has BabaJi not spoken for himself? Why doesn’t he make the announcement. :)

[Aam]

Strange indeed that they sat on the stage together and GSD or the announcer didn't introduce JSG!

[El]

@Aam, Hi. Yes you make a good point. It’s like they rely solely on Telesatsatsanghi (old joke).
I read here GSD wasn’t on the stage, JSG was alone.
Have they since appeared together?
I’d like to know how weird that was.