In both politics and religion, reports aren't the same as verified evidence

Building on my post of four days ago, "Harris-Trump debate shows how political lies are like religious lies," now I want to talk about how in both politics and religion reports aren't the same as verified evidence.

I got to thinking about this after watching a clip on X, formerly known as Twitter, from an interview Meet the Press host Kristen Welker did today with Republican Vice-President candidate J.D. Vance.

Leaving aside the fact that I can't stand Vance and his running mate, Donald Trump, I found the arguments Vance brought forward in favor of his belief that migrants from Haiti living in Springfield, Ohio are eating pet cats and dogs, along with geese in city ponds, to be both factually wrong and philosophically nonsensical. 

In case you aren't familiar with this unfounded conspiracy theory, I said in my previous post that Donald Trump brought it up in his presidential debate with Kamala Harris last Tuesday. Click on that link and you can see a video of the debate moderator pointing out to Trump that there's no evidence of Haitians in Springfield killing pet dogs and cats for food.

Didn't matter to Trump. He simply said that he's seen mentions of this on television, implying that it must be true for that ridiculous reason. (Trump mainly watches right-wing TV like Fox News, which lies as often as Trump does -- all the time.)

As you can see in the video below of Welker's interview with Vance (I've made the video start when they begin to discuss the pet cats and dogs thing), Vance acts a lot like Trump in saying that even though the City Manager and Police Chief of Springfield have denied that any pets or geese have been harmed by Haitian migrants, who are in this country legally, by the way, he's gotten reports from people in Ohio, his constituents, saying that this has happened.

To show the difference between reports and verified evidence, here's some examples of reports that lack solid evidence to back them up -- a mixture from politics, culture, and religion. It's been reported that...

Barack Obama was born in Kenya, not Hawaii, so he was ineligible to be president.
Alien spaceships have abducted people and conducted experiments on them.
Some Indian gurus have supernatural powers, such as an ability to remotely save their disciples from harm.
The 9/11 attacks in 2001 were orchestrated by the Bush administration, an "inside job."
Jesus returned to life after being killed by crucifixion and before that walked on water. 
The earrings Kamala Harris wore in her debate with Trump actually were earpieces her staff used to help her answer questions.
The moon landings were faked.
The current Dalai Lama is the reincarnation of a previous Dalai Lama. 
God can be realized by meditating in a certain way.
Other countries are sending their criminals to the United States through our southern border.
In 2020 the election was rigged in favor of Joe Biden, so Trump actually won. 
Allah wants Muslims to kill those who don't believe in fundamentalist Islam. 
There's a monster in the Scottish body of water called Loch Ness.

There's a slight -- extremely slight -- possibility that one or more of these reports is true. That's because it is extremely difficult to prove that something is false with 100% certainty. The best we can do is say "there's no verified evidence of this," which is good enough for science, and also for me. 

However, this allows people like Trump and Vance to make absurd statements, then say, "But there's reports of _______." Well, yeah. People report all kinds of stuff that isn't true, either because they've deluded themselves into believing it, or have a vested interest in spouting a lie. 

The problem, as others have noted in astute comments on this blog, is that it's extremely easy to make a false statement, but much more difficult to show that the statement is wrong. 

Last Tuesday it just took Trump a few seconds to say that Haitians are eating pets in Springfield, Ohio. Journalists had to engage in considerable time and effort to contact city officials and determine that regardless of that claim, there is no verified evidence that any cats or dogs have been killed by migrants living in Springfield.

These adages from the Quote Investigator come to mind:

(1) A lie travels around the globe while the truth is putting on its shoes.
(2) A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on.

Sad, but true. The Quote Investigator says that it is unclear who came up with those adages. Apparently they evolved over time and got erroneously attributed to Mark Twain and Winston Churchill, among others.

Comments

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"These adages from the Quote Investigator come to mind:

(1) A lie travels around the globe while the truth is putting on its shoes.
(2) A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on."

Point taken.

My rebuttal:

It's also darn easy to say that something spiritual is untrue or imagined. Yes, just that easy. Why? Because most times no one was there but the person it happened to. Or in certain cases perhaps some family members saw it too.

So the event is highly true for whoever is there. But for anyone looking in from outside of that window, it's too easy to say that it never happened.

Like when you meditated the RSSB way and saw some light, then said perhaps it was all in your head. For you, of course you know for sure! But how about someone who did the same RSSB meditation and sees nothing but darkness? Like me. It's the reverse, as I need your light to be real or my meditation is meaningless as a new comer.

[um]

@ Karim w. Rahmaan

Raised in an Christian society and in a time the RK were supposed to go to mass several times a week etc, I heard many people stating that Jezus or the Lord were close to them, that they could talk to them and get answers.

By nature I tend to accept what people have to say about themselves otherwise I have to label them as liars what I was not raised to do. Coupled with the motivation to be a "normal = like all others" person, it haunted me that I never had such an experience.
In the end after having talked to many priests,etc etc I got so frustraded that one day sitting in a church adressed my self to the Lord ... look if you do not consider it necessary to answer my prayers within the next 5 minutes, I will leave this house never to return again. Upon that thought the church was transformed in a building of brick and mortar ..it was no longer a "church" It took me more than two years to by pass my fears of being sent to hell . It was not a pleasant passage of time.to say the least.

These days I manage to go to a church, if at all the doors are open, and sit there in peace for a while as not many will go there these days. ... hahaaa .. my good friend and one of the members of my family that were / are let us call it spiritual gifted and sensitive.... to my surprise never want to go in a church as these places are haunted they feel.

The same happened in relation to sant mat. I was surrounded by people with all sorts of "miraculous" stories, suggestions about inner experiences. Suggestions because ..You know Um, we are not allow to speak about these things ...How much did I come to hate these kind of sayings. Using this kind of terminology had almost become a kind of prove of excellence like an quality vignet on a bottle of wine [ DOP - Denominazione di Origine Protetta]

Fortunately I liked the late MCS what made my departure from sant mat not that traumatic as that of Christianity

These days I have come to the conclusion that it is best to stay away from others with regard to inner experiences as possible. II just accept their stories on face validity as something that can happen and did happen to them but need not to happen to anybody else.

Finally .. An Cartesian nun was asked if the lord ever answered her prayers. Smilingly she said no .. he never did. Then on be asked why she continued staying in the secluser of this mystic order and monastery, she answered with an even bigger smile ..because I love to pray

Sant Mat can be worth to be lived by even without having any inner experiences..
I have none but the late MCS was right when he said "look from where you have come" ..I did and saw how much my meditation was changed and me too..... but if somebody would state that it is due to the brand of my coffee, I will smile.

[um]

>> In both politics and religion, reports aren't the same as verified evidence<<

Many things in life you participate in are .... from the things you buy, the means of traffic you use ... starting from asking a person the direction for an adress you plan to go. ... you are not sure that it will turn out as presented.

Not even the medicines you use ... there is no evidence that they will cure you.

Verified evidence is a tool in science only.like a hammer in the workshop of an carpenter outside of which it rapidly loes it meaning and value.

[Appreciative Reader]

"A lie travels around the globe while the truth is putting on its shoes."

"A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on."

Indeed. And no better illustration of this principle can be presented than Trump and his minions and many of his supporters. And no better encapsulated, focused instance of this can be presented than the recent Harris-Trump debate.

It's truly amazing, how the man has zero compunction about saying whatever the hell pops into his head, and spouting all manner of utter lies with a straight face. And nor does he seem to have even the very concept --- haha, "concept"! --- of what truth entails, and how it is to be approached and arrived at, or of what makes for evidence and what doesn't. It is truly amazing that as utterly dishonest and ignorant and downright stupid a man as he should be able to attract such large droves of such cultic following.

[um]

@AR

You should know better Ar ... hahaha

The diction goes:
What you sow you will reap

Who and what was sowed that brought Trump forward??

[ The polical] Trump did not created himself as the proverbial Barom Of Munchhausen could not pull himself out of the but by pulling his boots.

[Appreciative Reader]

Hey, um!

Always fun listening to you! That makes no sense, in context of what I said just now; but, following the advice that a wise tree gave me by implication not long ago, I'm refraining from arguing about that with the tree!

----------

Again, since I'm here speaking with the tree, perhaps I could simply point out --- just point out, sans full-on discussion or argument --- these two of its recently dispensed fruit also were inedible, made no sense, were wrong. These two:

"Not even the medicines you use ... there is no evidence that they will cure you."

and

"Verified evidence is a tool in science only.like a hammer in the workshop of an carpenter outside of which it rapidly loes it meaning and value."

---------

*what does one do to express camaraderie with a tree? shake a branch? touch its bark? just say cheers? ...AR says Cheers*

[um]

@AR
*what does one do to express camaraderie with a tree? shake a branch? touch its bark? just say cheers? ...AR says Cheers*

A poem on camaraderie, once given to me:

T wish you joy of heart today
the joy that laughs and sings;
the carefree happiness that finds pleasure in simple things.

And many a comrade staunch and true
to travel through the years with you
a friend who never finds a fault;
a friend who's ever true.
a friend who's sure you're always right
whatever you say or do.

Through all the years may fortune send
her choicest gifts to you

and may you never lack a friend
that is honest real and true.

[Appreciative Reader]

Nice, um. Don't remember having come across it, but liked the sentiment.

----------

Couldn't help notice, though, that two specific portions of it don't quite add up.

"a friend who's sure you're always right ... whatever you say or do." ---- by that measure, neither is um AR's friend; and nor is AR um's friend.

on the other hand, "a friend ... that is honest real and true" ---- by that measure, sure, both are indeed friends, even when they disagree

so that, those two measures of friendship ------ "who's sure you're always right whatever you say or do" and "a friend that is honest real and true" are mutually exclusive, they cannot both be simultaneously true, except only very occasionally and by happenstance

----------

heh, but cool poem, enjoyed it, and appreciate the thought! ...cheers

[um]

@ AR

This has been a very meaningful poem for me.

First because it adequately describes the character of my late friend with whom I was associate the whole period of the tenure of the late MCS .. we were mental, spiritual twin brothers

Secondly because it sums up something with which all textbooks on psychotherapy start but nowhere is described .. the therapeutical relationship between the client and the therapist as a [pre]requisit for the success of any form of therapy.

The therapist mus have these qualities ascribed in the poem to a friend

There is more to it but for privacy reasons I prefer not to write them down here. just ask if you can a therapist what he thinks of being a "friend" as the very heart of a therapy

[sant64]

In halls where whispers softly blend,
And shadows stretch, their secrets send,
A call for strength, a fervent plea,
We must try harder, fervently.

The first time failed, but came so close
"His rhetoric caused it" we righteously boast
Yet in the face of countless tries,
We must try harder, to rise.

And try again of course we did
In the bushes of the golf course, our guy hid
To shape the future, bright and clear,
We must try harder, it's the last year.

Tragically he was caught before he did the deed
All laughter and smiles, a hero's creed
To challenge norms and push the old,
We must try harder, brave and bold.

No time for slack or hesitant breath,
The course is set, so similar to Macbeth.
On strength and will, with courage bright,
We must try harder, through the night.

In the face of shadows, dark and deep,
Where whispers of discord often creep,
We stand as guardians, hearts held high,
To defend democracy, our guiding sky.

So rise with hope, pursue the change,
The vision clear, within our range (ker-pow!)
For in the heart of every strive,
We must try harder, and keep dreams alive.

In this course, ends justify the means,
Biden we cut down from presidential candidate to seldom seen,
That was easy, so assassination no tall order
You know we Falangists repeatedly get away with murder

We demonize the justices of the Supreme Court
They'd better behave or face a similar tort
Same goes for attending a political rally
People now know our guys bullets are EOE, pally.

For we know the public is none too bright, you see
"Gosh, guess we need more funding for security,"
We simply tell hoi polloi we're the people of light
But WE know, for our brand of democracy, might makes right.

So be of cheer, with laughter and joy
To "save democracy" means we must destroy
Like Ryan Routh, be not afraid to harm
Always remember: The 3rd times a charm.

[Spence Tepper]

In nearly 200 years of its existence, Scientific American has only endorsed one Presidential Candidate, until now.

Read their facts and reasoning for yourself, and make your own decision.
They do a very nice job laying our their reasoning and the facts it is based upon quite plainly., without any "spin".

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vote-for-kamala-harris-to-support-science-health-and-the-environment/

[Sunil]

"Some Indian gurus have supernatural powers, such as an ability to remotely save their disciples from harm"
These fake gurus are charismatic, eloquent, and able to manipulate their followers emotionally. They may offer teachings that are vague or simplistic but wrapped in mystical language, leaving followers feeling entranced by their perceived wisdom. However, these teachings often lack depth or substance, and their primary function is to enhance the guru's personal status rather than offer genuine spiritual insight.
These gurus tend to attract followers into cult-like communities where their authority goes unquestioned. Within these environments, peer pressure and groupthink can make it difficult for individuals to challenge the guru's claims or recognize the harm being done. The promise of spiritual salvation often overshadows red flags, leaving followers deeply committed to the guru even in the face of exploitation or abuse.
They give this impression that they are sole possessors of spiritual truth or enlightenment.
They use fear, guilt, or shame to control their followers.
They demand unquestioning loyalty and discourage critical thinking.
They live in luxury while their followers are often expected to sacrifice.
Their teachings are vague, inconsistent, or overly simplistic.
No evidence will be strong enough to change followers faith

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"Fortunately I liked the late MCS what made my departure from sant mat not that traumatic as that of Christianity"

Posted by: um | September 16, 2024 at 02:01 AM

And how was it that you met Maharaj Charan Singh? A book? Didn't you say you never got initiated into Sant Mat, cmon

"They live in luxury while their followers are often expected to sacrifice."

Posted by: Sunil | September 16, 2024 at 10:01 PM

But WHO are these fake babas?
My friend?

Someone could say that they all couldn't be all fakes.. Could they? What IF one was real?

If so, then us disbelievers could ourselves be making a horrible horrible MISTAKE. No?

[um]

@ Karim W Rahmaan

>> And how was it that you met Maharaj Charan Singh? A book? Didn't you say you never got initiated into Sant Mat, cmon<<

I had written out my whole story in great detail but it is better not to put it here in plain public.

No It was not via a book and more or less by accident
No I never said I was not initiated, as I was.

On asking for initiation I should have convinced myself who and what a master is. I tried but failed and that should have been a reason to NOT ask for initiation

The late MCS compared initiation with asking for admission into the French Foreign Legion. You are free as long as you are outside their walls but once inside you are under their commands..

[Sunil]

@ Karim
"But WHO are these fake babas?
My friend?

Someone could say that they all couldn't be all fakes.. Could they? What IF one was real?"

I explained in my post all the signs of fake Babas , if you can see these signs you will easily recognise them.
Real Baba like Guru Nanak, Kabir. .just compare there life with these Babas..you will see the reality...those Babas follow what they preach, these fake babas do opposit
Rest on people consciousness and understanding..

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"..you will easily recognise them.
Real Baba like Guru Nanak, Kabir. .just compare there life with these Babas..you will see the reality...those Babas follow what they preach, these fake babas do opposite.."

Posted by: Sunil | September 17, 2024 at 10:01 AM

What I meant by WHO was, can you be more specific? I'm not asking for deceased gurus already ascended to the highest abode, like Guru Shri Angad.

What living guru do you believe is a fake? I didn't catch that in your last two comments.

[Back to the Original Thread, Brian mentioned below;]

"God can be realized by meditating in a certain way."

RSSB Gurus don't say this. They say by meditating the prescribed way; Not our way, not just any dreamt up way, but their model way:

"Saints say we should search for God within our body; instead of taking this advice, we are apt to become victims of pride and egotism. Just think for a moment. While we are in this body, what are we proud of? Is it our youth? Have we not seen old age creeping up on people? Have we not seen the pitiful condition of patients in hospitals? Is it our wealth? Have we not seen rich people losing all their money? Is it power and authority or honor and glory of which we are proud? Have we not seen powerful and influential leaders forced to face the hangman's noose or being shot by an assassin's bullet? In the space of a moment, monarchies may be overthrown and their monarchs may end their lives in prison or be sentenced to be shot dead. What then are we proud of? Kabir Sahib says:

{The burning wood says to the blacksmith:

Even though you are burning me in your forge today,

Do not forget that there will come a day

When I shall burn your fine body to ashes.}" –Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, on Humility

[Jim Sutherland]

@Chiro, ….I like your posts, and deeply resonate with you, on your search for Truth. Altho , not having much more in common with you, other than being also a Charan Singh Initiate,

You wrote in a post from way back I just stumbled upon …
“I hastened to Sam's gym. Sam was standing at the counter. I said "I have come to apply for initiation." Sam said "I have never seen you before, have you attended Satsang?" I said "No," Sam said "Have you read any of the books?" I said "no," Sam said "I suppose you will tell me you have never seen a photo of the master?" I said “No," Sam said “Ok, abstain from meat, fish, eggs ( I was already a veggie) and drugs for six months and you will be initiated. So the moral of this story is you will not find your guru, your guru will find you once you start earnestly searching, if you don't search you will not find.”
I read Sam Busa’s Book, and couldn’t help from being impressed by him, as Charan Singh, who, not only used him as his So. African Rep., but when Sam visited the Dera, which was often, Charan took him on his long tours of Sanghats in the hills of the Punjab, as well as others, and from all other books I have read, published by RSSB, which are all of them published in English, I have never found any other Western Initiate that Charan seemed to love and trust as well as Sam Busa!
So , since both you and I appear to continue to search for, and love unblemished Truths, I will share this Conundrum with you.
To any So. African Satsangi who knew Sam Busa well, they knew that Sam Busa, not only was a womanizer, but carried on an affair with an Indian female Satsangi, and he was divorced and remarried. Which all who loved him, as Charan did, seemed to over look his “short comings” I mean, he wasn’t, the only Westerner, or Indian, including Gurinder who had an eye for female beauty! Our Western Hero who brought me, and most Westerners to the Sant Mat Path, i.e. Dr. Julian Johnson’s by his book, “The Path of The Masters” was married 4 times! ( We know this, thanks to David Lane’s research about Julian Johnson )
But getting back to Sam Busa, and the real Conundrum. From all I have read from RSSB books, prior to Gurinder Singh, the real goal of Sant Mat meditation, is to actually SEE the Radiant Form of the Master who initiated us, inside, in his form as we originally saw him in the physical! And Sawan Singh clearly said, in his book, “Spiritual Gems”, NOT to use the photos of the Master contemplate on, at the 3rd eye, during Simran meditation.
So, wouldn’t it be fair to think, that if ANY Charan Initiate ever succeeded in seeing the Radiant Form of the Master, Charan Singh, manifest inside , it would have been Sam Busa!
However, the real Conundrum was, according to one of Sam Busa’s best friends, when Sam was dying, in his last days and Sharing stories with his friends, he complained that he was very disappointed to have NEVER ONCE , encountered the Radiant Form of Master Charan Singh inside!
And yet, I shared here, years ago, how Master Charan’s Radiant Form DID Manifest to me, Inside, at around the 60 minute mark, in full body, clearly, a foot away, to my right, and SPOKE to me, as well as TOUCHING me on my right shoulder, before vaporizing when I started to ask him questions! And I have never met Charan in the physical, and an even greater conundrum, I was only initiated by proxy in So. California Feb. 4th, 1990, and Charan died in June 1990! I never got to meet him at the Dera, and only got to visit the Dera one tine in 2017, which I also shared about my visit here.
Both of those posts should be able to be found if searched here.
It was soon after I shared my post about meeting the Radiant Form of Charan here, that a So. African Satsangi who knew Sam Busa and his friends well, privately reached out to me, and shared with me, what I posted about Sam Busa above. It might be gossip, but it more like,y is Truth, as the So. African Satsangi would have no reason to lie to me about such a private matter, as I have never had any reason to lie about Charan Singh’s Radiant Firm manifesting to me inside,
One thing I have never shared publically, here, or in any other forums is, that around 2 years prior, I had visited Israel for my 1st time, and we were on a bus load of tourists on the way to the Wailing Wall. Just prior to arriving, the Tour Guide spoke over the speakers to not forget to write our most important Prayer Request on a slip of paper to stuff in a crack in the Wall. I quickly fumbled for paper and pen, and managed to find a scrap in my Wife’s purse, and quickly penned my Prayer Request. Before I folded it, and put it in my pocket, I showed it to my Wife. It read as I wrote from my heart,…..My Prayer request is, to meet the Radiant Form of Charan Sign, inside during meditation!
And when he appeared to me, I was STILL surprised, and had forgotten my Prayer on the scrap of paper I stuffed in to the crack saved for me in the Wailing Wall. That was the one and only time Charan ever appeared to me, and there was no mistaking his clear face, body, cloths, and his unique voice with his accent!
As written in the Christian Bible,….”The first shall be last, and the last, first.”
Jim Sutherland, one of Charan’s very last Initiates

[Jim Sutherland]

@Chiro, …I should have added to my last post, but forgot. I NEVER attended even ONE RSSB Satsang prior to being initiated by proxy by Roland DeVries for Charan. I did my Secretary Interview by phone, after filling out my application and mailing it, then also was interviewed by phone for about 15 minutes with Roland De Vries, who answered to my satisfaction all of my Christian questions. After that interview, I never attended an RSSB Satang until I met Roland in person my first time and was initiated about 3 months later. I then started attending weekly RSSB Satsangs in Anaheim, Ca., with an occasional visit to the along Beach Satsang for the next 10 years. That was in Feb. 1990, and I never missed a Sunday until I quit going around 10 years later. After Gurinder stopped the Sunday Pot Luck lunches, plus ALL individual socializing before and after Satsangs, plus most of the other rules you mentioned, the non Indian Satsangis started missing, and the usual attendance of about 300 shrinking to 50 on a good day, or less, …but once “Designated: Speakers only were allowed to read Satsangs from RSSB Books that I already knew by heart, …it became time for me, also, to quit wasting almost my entire Sundays to drive 50 miles to gain nothing and unable to offer any thing.
Jim Sutherland

[um]

@ Jim S.

Apart from my personal considerations, what you describe is more or less what happened in Europe too.

Again compare the transformation with turning feudal china in modern communism .. from charismatic to the communist apparatchiks in green uniforms.

For some that transformation was heaven on earth and for others the opposite.
The Woodstock generation is removed with root and branch.

That is alright, nothing wrong with either .. it is just moving with the spirit of the time.
It will go on changing and take forms we cannot imagine today

[Aam]

@Um
I try hard to understand what you say, but can’t. I am just a simple person.
In my understand sant mat is pretty simple as well. Bulleh shah was educated and sophisticated person taught by the religious academics of his time, in the best schools. They were just shells. Shah Inayat was a simple, gardner who told Bulleh Shah the secret.of spirituality.
Unfortunately, RSSB has moved on from the simple principles of spiritual existence to elaborate organizational processes and rigidity as outlined by Chiro and Jim above.
I don't think anyone can find any more spirituality in RSSB as it is structured, currently. Hence, it us just a shell.
In these comments, people are asking for clarity, as am I.

[um]

@ AAm

You must be more educated than I am Aam, as I see only the outward changes that everybody sees, and I know how that feels for me but I am not able to attribute conclusive meaning and value to what I see.,

No body can give anything to you ...RSSB will be for you what you attribute to it in terms of meaning and value.

Flowers can be looked upon by many persons, the gardner, the biologist, the artist and many more like mental artists ... but that doesn't mean they know what a flower is and is doing here.

Having listened to the words of the late MCS, and digested them in my own way, I leave the door open to the possibility that what is going on is not what it seems to be in the mean time I have left it all behind as these changes are not my cup of tea but not being of my liking that doesn't mean by necessity that there is something wrong with the tea ...it just doesn't fit any longer with my expectations and personal preferences.

You seem to know what spirituality is all about and you seem to know what the essence of spirituality is apart from the outward appearances and arrive at the conclusion that RSSB is a shell ...Maybe you are right ..I do not know and I am not in a position to verify what you say

The story of Bulleh sha is a lovely reminder.