Let's be clear.
I don't believe in the notion of sin, which is an offense against God. That's ridiculous, since there's no persuasive evidence that God even exists, nor, obviously, that anyone knows what the nonexistent God likes and doesn't like.
I also don't believe in the notion of saints, who are believed to have a closeness to God, for the same reason.
So when I refer to sinners and saints in the title of this post, I'm speaking in a secular sense of bad and good people -- where "bad" and "good" are actions or qualities that a certain culture or society has determined deserve those terms.
My previous post, "Morality has evolutionary roots, but goodness still feels like a choice," got me thinking about something in a New Yorker article that I included excerpts from.
We all depend on trust, yet it works in tricky ways. On the one hand, we trust people who are guided by consistent ethical precepts. I’d rather go to dinner with someone deeply opposed to stealing than a jerk who pockets my valuables as soon as I get up to pee.
On the other hand, we’re turned off when people’s commitments seem calculated. The ascent of terms like “slacktivism,” “virtue signalling,” and “moral grandstanding” bespeaks a frustration with do-gooders motivated more by acclaim than by an internal moral compass. The idea is that, if you’re in it for the reputational perks, you can’t be relied on when those perks vanish.
That's true, but I'm bothered less by how a moralistic do-gooder is motivated than by the basic fact of their calculated, rather than natural, approach to interacting with other people.
I had a lot of experience with this during the thirty-five years I was a member of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), an India-based religious group which taught that the Five Deadly Sins -- lust, anger, greed, attachment, egotism -- are to be done away with in order to pursue God-realization.
Aside from the fact that everybody I've ever come across in my 75 years of living has manifested those supposed sins, including some extremely kind-hearted people, it irritated me (oh, no, anger!) when a fellow RSSB member would act in an artificial fashion that seemed scripted rather than spontaneous.
They might even take on the gestures and speaking style of the RSSB guru, as if behaving outwardly like a supposed saint would make them into one. Sometimes I'd feel like grabbing them by their shoulders, shaking them, and saying loudly, "Just act like a normal human being! Be yourself!"
I remember seeing an episode of the 60 Minutes show many years ago that featured a convicted murderer who was being interviewed in prison. He said something like, "Yeah, I killed a guy. That's a fact. It's why I'm in this place."
His honesty about the crime he committed struck me as more laudable than what our president at the time, who I think was George W. Bush, was deceptively saying about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, a lie that was being used to justify our invasion of that country.
Back in my RSSB days, my wife and I would host a Christmas gathering of people in our local group ("sangat") where we'd enjoy a potluck and sharing White Elephant gifts that were things people brought that they wanted to get rid of, being ugly, useless, or whatever.
The best part of the evening for me was when most people had left and there were just a few of us sitting around talking. That's when things got more real. We all were pretty natural to begin with, but after chit-chatting for several hours there'd be a desire to open up even more.
Someone might say, "I've never said this to anyone before, but..." That would grab our attention. Ooh, go on, please, go on. The revelation wouldn't be as dramatic as having killed someone. It'd just be something honest and revealing about who the person actually was in private, versus how the person appeared in public -- a difference almost everybody engages in, me certainly included.
No matter what was revealed, even if it went against the precepts of RSSB, everybody still hanging around in our living room would be fine with that. We valued honesty over deception, speaking a dark truth about ourselves over putting on a fake smiley-face.
Sure, there's a time and place for absolute transparency, and a time and place for putting on a false front that disguises who we really are. I'm simply saying that I prefer people who are as natural as possible as often as possible. That allows me to feel like I can be equally natural around them.
Agreed. 💯 But now we have hyper wokeness, DEI and a long, long, long list of things that might offend any given group. It’s unfortunate and uncomfortable.
Posted by: S | September 30, 2024 at 12:59 AM
Brian is 75 (just a youngster!) while I am a much older 76, and he was initiated one year after myself, so we have both spent a lifetime with the RSSB. I deeply respect his experience and views which I suspect are shared, at least in the case of disillusionment with the path, by a large number of fellow initiates who did not have any of the inner experience promised by MCS, nor saw in Him any divinity as opposed to good human character. Also, we all entered en masse, onto a path which until the fairly recent time of Tusli Sahib of Hatras, was reserved for a tiny minority. Those who could benefit from that specific path at that particular part of their spiritual journey. One notes that Gautama Buddha only accepted the cream of the cream as disciples, such as to have that handful called 'the Noble Ones.' To those accusing MCS of the cultural Marxist term 'homophobia' I seem to remember that the Buddah broke with what grew into Buddhism when it opened itself to female members. I hope my memory serves me right.
I believe that a huge reason for the mass disillusionment of a good number of followers of MCS was because of Gurinder. I can't speak for the Indians but Western satsangis became increasingly shocked and eventually completely put off the RSSB institution itself by this hostile figure, and the cold, police-state like autocratic regime that had come after their Guru. They lost faith in Maharaji for this appointment for all the reasons laid out in previous comments on Brian's posts. I remember an Indian lady on these very threads talking about the 'good old days' when Maharaji sailed by in His cheap little car, a trail of dust behind it, his long white beard blowing through the open window as he saluted and smiled with kindness, love and affection at the satsangis on the roadside. She said all that is gone now from Dera Baba Jaimal Singh, and she herself well in the know as being a part of the historic family of the old Dera.
I can never convey to Brian my faith in MCB and in the existence of God that came with a Catholic childhood steeped in the mystical culture of love and devotion for the divine, which existed before the demonic Communist effects of the second Vatican council had fully dawned, a take-over (Antonio Gramsci's 'long march through the institutions') by the enemies of the church that has placed what traditional Catholics consider to be Satan himself in the role the current pope.
So speaking to just those like myself; fuddy-duddy 15th Century mystic types, I will say that the flame of Shabd which has left the Dera has moved to Tarn Taran, where the faces of the disciples and the crowds, even of the little children, are the faces of Maharaji's crowds, reflecting the experience of being in the presence of a God-realized soul and feeling the waves of His love. MCS personally guided Tarn Taran, being the honoured guest at two of the last three dasturbanis and wrapping the turban of two of the last three Gurus. Maharaji passed away before the current incumbent was enthroned, but having crowned his master but it is my opinion that He is Maharaji's true successor one house removed while Guriner imo (I could be wrong) is just a manager to oversee the death of Beas as a center of enlightenment, and begin its process of turning into a competitor to TM and scientology.
Unlike Gurinder who after all these decades has never produced one satsang that I can hear on YouTube or elsewhere, Parmajit Singh gives the sort of satsang on the Tran Taran YouTube channel Maharaji used to give, and to which I listen to whenever they come out, now increasingly with English subtitles. Like Maharaji he does not have that some might say the Trumpian, magnetic, theatrical quality that Soami ji and The Great Master had, but rather like Maharaji is plain in delivery and hammers the same points. No doubt this post will be followed by the usual slanders, but a diamond is a diamond to the knowers of diamonds however some may try to cast the shade that it is just glass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpaeG9G9QHg
Posted by: Chiro | September 30, 2024 at 04:03 AM
@ Chiro
Those children born between 1975 and 1990 were taken to the many Bhandaras all over Europe and individually presented to the late MCS
I can assure you that they spend the time of their life on those occasions. They were not asked let alone pushed to attend any satsang, they had young sevadars looking after them while parents were at satsang and they could play in full freedom
So Chiro these children cannot but have good sweet memories of their association with sant mat
Can you explain against this background why these children have in grand part no inclination towards spirituality?
The changes, I cannot repeat it enough started long before the departure of the late MCS and were not ven caused there.
Posted by: um | September 30, 2024 at 04:54 AM
Yeah, Google isn’t what it used to be. 😔 Somehow they’ve lost their way and only aspire to, “Don’t be evil” (they have a big wall with that motto written on it at HQ).
My point is corporations typically suck the feel good humanity out of an organization.
Posted by: Un | September 30, 2024 at 06:37 AM
@ Chiro
What would you say if I stated that the west, due to their ignorance, ripped the very heart out of martial arts like Judo, Aikido etc and out of medical traditions like accupuncture, shiatsu etc bby their would-be imitations?
What If I would say that they did their best with indian classical dance an music but were not able to do so?
That they did the same with religious and spiritual knowledge and practice and were able to copy-cat the shell?
I looked at the video of Tarn Taran and I suggest you have a close look at the faces in the audience, having in mind what I wrote above... it might help to understand what I am pointing at.
For anything related to performing on stage, you need an receptive audience.
That audience you see there is not available in the west, I has never been there... it was a gimmick from a mostly academic youth revolting against their own world
Hahahaha ... maybe the late MSC installed his nephew in order to prevent the sangat, its teachings and practice being stolen by westerners, to use it for their own pleasures, greater glory of themselves and in doing so saved the tradition. hahahaha ..funny thought don't you think so?
Have a look at the endless procession of self styled masters, teachers, guru's, sifo's
that are out to show the east what the things realy are ..in fact it is an form of cultural kolonialism.
Enough ...otherwise I will sink to far in the mud.
Posted by: um | September 30, 2024 at 06:43 AM
Of course, let me play the Devil’s Advocate. The alternative to RSSB, Inc. would have been to keep it small, A.K.A., exclusive. There’s no way to win.
Posted by: Un | September 30, 2024 at 07:01 AM
Gurinder is like the Musk of gurus. Either you love him or you hate him.
Posted by: Un | September 30, 2024 at 07:04 AM
@ un
They threw away the [western} bath water and rescued the baby.
Have a look at that video
Posted by: umb | September 30, 2024 at 07:07 AM
It should be called RadhasoamiX. 😂
Posted by: Uncomplicated | September 30, 2024 at 07:11 AM
What video? Link didn’t post.
Posted by: Un | September 30, 2024 at 07:12 AM
@ Un
Indians are very jealous about their roots, their traditions .. peoples fro the west have already stolen so much from them.
This time they do not let you what is so near and dear to them.
Maybe ..i am not an skryer ...the western sangats were created for the ever growing stream of Indian emigrants leaving India and settling in the west.
If they are not allowed to live their traditions, that would corrut in the long end india
Posted by: umb | September 30, 2024 at 07:16 AM
@ Un
see Chiro's last post at the bottom.
Posted by: umb | September 30, 2024 at 07:17 AM
@um
All these Babas look the same!!! 😂 😂 😂
It’s funny, my in laws have been RSSB initiates since the late 60’s and didn’t even know there was more than one RS sect till I came back from Dera in 2012. Westerners know nothing about RS history.
Posted by: Un | September 30, 2024 at 08:52 AM
Punjabi Guru Fashion 101:
✅ white shirt and pants
✅ tailored vest
✅ XL turban
✅ expensive sunglasses
✅ palms together at eye center looking both humble and regal
Posted by: Un | September 30, 2024 at 09:08 AM
I forgot the long flowing beard (and the beard is EVERYTHING).
Posted by: Un | September 30, 2024 at 09:11 AM
Right, I'd posted my last comment, in context of Manvir Singh's full article not the manjit thing, before I'd read this article.
I agree 100% with what you're saying here, Brian, I mean about preferring honest sinners to hypocrites posing as saints: but to tie this to what I'd said there, I think that's a bit of a false dichotomy. That is, it is also possible to be honestly a saint. Well, not a "saint" per se --- certainly the kind of goings-on you describe at your "satsang" is absurd, and simply weirdos play-acting away and trying to fool themselves and others with nonsense --- but, I'm saying, virtue fully internalized is also a thing.
To tie this back to Singh's own example, about that tribal guy and the money he, Singh, first did not help him with and afterwards did: It is better to be someone that sometimes breaks one's word and honestly owns up to it, than to pretend and pose; and it is better, like Singh did, to honestly acknowledge that one's virtue in paying up afterwards is no more than not wanting to be seen by others as someone that breaks one's word: but, I'm saying, those two are not the only two alternatives possible, it is also perfectly possible to so internalize virtue, in this case honesty and integrity, that one always does keep one's word, regardless of whether a single soul will ever find out about it. The world's not such a dystopian thing that virtue, true virtue, is a complete myth!
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | September 30, 2024 at 11:42 AM
Gurinder singh dhillon and now his side kick trainee jasdeep are the most deceptive people on the planet. The whole rssb , it's very foundation, it's non existent ideology , it's make it up as you go along ethos is built on lies. This is the one property of kaal/ lucifer / demons , is to be opposite to truth. Gurinder and his side kick in training , are agents of kaal who plant seeds of deception/ create confusion, make a wrong thing look right, so much so that his prey, the sangat, cannot discern the truth from his lies. These fake asses , twist the lies and call this the truth.
There heaven is hell. Rssb should be shut down. Its dangerous and completely waste the lives of desperate people seeking help and relief from their everyday existence. These people are easy pickings for a trickster babas of beas who are spiders that entrap souls in their web of lies. But gurinder is facing is karma , look at his health.
Posted by: Kranvir | September 30, 2024 at 12:58 PM
Chiro,
The video is beautiful anyway anyhow <3
Devotion is beautiful and the shabd singer is very fine..
Thanks for sharing _/\_
Posted by: s* | October 01, 2024 at 01:40 AM
@Kranvir
I’ve been following your posts, and while I understand the perspective you're sharing, it seems like many of them revolve around the same ideas without bringing in much new information. I get the point you're making, but instead of continuously expressing your beliefs or relying on hypothetical situations, it would strengthen your argument if you focused more on logical facts, solid evidence, or real-life comparisons.
Please don’t take this as criticism. I share your view that GSD seems fraudulent, but my stance is grounded in concrete facts and a comparison to authentic spiritual standards. By focusing on reliable information, we can make our discussions more impactful and credible.
Thanks!
Posted by: Sunil | October 01, 2024 at 08:57 AM
Deceptive SAINTs Number 1 would be the retired GURINDER SINGH DHILION RADHA SOAMI CULT LEADER.
After a life of deceptiveness deception on stage and through out Gurinders criminal life he now has somewhat retired and passed the seat to another fraudster new Baba jasspreet.
GURINDERs life is a shower of shit of a Disaster which has left him Exposed humiliated and now should have been in jail for retirement
Jasspreet is another clown Who will now lead the innocent individuals to hell for Kaal the Devil
These low life Baba need to be jailed and the Deras shut down
These on going Baba who live of others and like to be worshipped as gods will face God soon judgement is here
Posted by: Trez | October 01, 2024 at 11:16 AM
"They might even take on the gestures and speaking style of the RSSB guru, as if behaving outwardly like a supposed saint would make them into one. Sometimes I'd feel like grabbing them by their shoulders, shaking them, and saying loudly, "Just act like a normal human being! Be yourself!""
I have no idea what you're referring to here. In fact, this is one of the strangest criticisms of Gurinder I've ever heard.
I'm not a Gurinder initiate. Can't say I've ever felt a connection to him either. As personalities go, I favor Charan Singh. But I can say I've seen several of his "GSD" videos and he comes across to me as unaffected and down-to-earth. Pointedly so, especially in comparison to other gurus I could name.
Posted by: sant64 | October 01, 2024 at 05:28 PM
I confess I oer'hastily read the essay, and now see that it's about satsangis who gratingly ape the speaking style of the guru. OK, that's something I can relate to.
There used to be a Charan initiate named Michael Martin who called himself "Satguru of the Western World" on sant mat forums. Mr. Martin would write in the distinctive style of Charan Singh (or really, the prose style that seems to fit the apparent style guide for everyone who contributes to RSSB's Spiritual Link), and it came across to everyone as quite affected and unnatural.
I've seen the same thing in certain ashrams. It is annoying.
Posted by: sant64 | October 01, 2024 at 05:42 PM
@sunil, facts is what I'm also after. Can you prove factually that gurinder singh dhillon is the incarnation of true god ? Can you provide proof that Jasdeep, the side kick , is incarnate of true god?
Give me 3 reasons why they are ?
If you dig deep, you'll find that there are zero reasons. These charlatans are self proclaimed guru, a clown, with zero truth. As for the new guru, since when did you need a phd from cambridge university and business strategy works experience to be an rssb guru , and run the rssb empire. The whole path was fake right from the very start. Truth is simple, needs no path, no teaching. This is why the clueless babas of beas will face their karma , by fooling and misleading the naive innocent souls they have caught in their web of lies that they are suffering because of karma - the game has changed and the hunter has become the hunted
Posted by: Kranvir | October 02, 2024 at 12:59 PM
@Karanvir
Let me expand further on what I was saying. When engaging in discussions, especially about sensitive topics like religious groups or organizations, it's crucial to approach the conversation with clarity, calmness, and evidence.
You’re clearly passionate about the issue, and that’s great, but expressing your views in a way that feels like shouting or venting frustration can sometimes push people away from really hearing your message. When people feel attacked, they often become defensive, which blocks any chance of meaningful dialogue.
Think of it this way: If we truly want to open people’s minds, we need to be strategic. Instead of just condemning something like RSSB as a cult, share the specific reasons you believe it operates that way. Provide examples of questionable practices, personal experiences, or documented sources. When people see that your concerns are rooted in facts and personal understanding, they’re more likely to engage with what you’re saying.
Even when you strongly disagree with something, as Guru Nanak demonstrated, there’s a way to challenge and question without coming off as hostile. He focused on raising questions and encouraging people to think critically, comparing the teachings of fake gurus to those of true saints without attacking them personally.
In the same way, you can contribute far more effectively if you share your insights in a calm, fact-based manner. I believe you have valuable input to offer, and this approach could help others see your perspective more clearly.
Please don't mind..l also believe that GSD is a big fraud but l have said this with facts few times
Posted by: Sunil | October 03, 2024 at 10:14 AM
@ Sunil
>> If we truly want to open people’s minds, we need to be strategic<<
Why would anybody want to change the minds of his fellow human beings?
Even in the days I was closely related with this path and found great satisfaction I can remember ever to have suggested friends, family or others to walk my path ..no doubt I had no problem telling others what I got from it but nothing more.
I never understood that attitude of mind what they call today "ïnfluencers" ..in my opinion an cultural disease
Posted by: umb | October 03, 2024 at 12:33 PM
um,
You ar absolute right about the pleasure the children had in Maharaji´s time!!
They loved to be there and have still nice memories.
Now they have found their own spiritual ways.
My son is into Advaita Vedanta and I like that too very much.
They both are veggies
Posted by: s* | October 04, 2024 at 12:55 AM
My kids are not veggies but veganś
; )
Posted by: s* | October 05, 2024 at 02:48 AM
Gurinder is the Snake Soami in disguse.
He is a Lying 2 faced Baba of beas, his life is an Exposed book of criminality and fraud.
Sinner and sicko is nothing to be ashamed is Gurinder Singh Dhilions motto
Shamed and degraded he now lives a pitiful pension life waiting for his judgment from God for his very bad karma.
"What you sow so shall you reap"
It's nearly time for you rewards by the all loving farther he awaits you.
You can come out now, you could never hide forever could you
Posted by: Trez | October 06, 2024 at 10:31 AM
Sad remarks. Sorry that you feel this way about him, but he has some very unique and simple methods.
Simplicity can lead to complications in a world filled with obstacles.
I guess what I am attempting to convey is that we are all struggling souls. It is good to be mindful, a bit cautious, and yet natural with sort've an individual path that is our own. It sounds as though you went through some stuff with him or others on this path- specific. Some say that one cannot judge a teacher by its disciples, necessarily. I guess that is accurate. I have never felt that this master has advocated that sickos or sinners can be excused or pardoned- without a change in all areas of one's life to become a better human being. It is true that some folks don't learn very quickly or at all though. At any rate I am sorry that something very bad may have happened to you or others. I try to think positive and keep walking through in life that is not easy or even understandable. It is a strange and yet beautiful world we live in. Don't you think?
Posted by: Alena | October 11, 2024 at 02:31 AM
To sin is to be forgiven, To be a deceptive Saint is a sin never to be forgiven
Why because the likes of Gurinder Singh Dhilion says so many lies on stage knowing full well its lies
A sinner sinning in a hell world can't even be held responsible for anything, as Gurinder always says even a leaf can't move without his will.
So it's him doing it so why are we humans paying the price?
It's the Devils world and its his karma he makes us go through something we are not responsible for
This is what Gurinder Hides but knows full well and the very reason he himself has and still is creating some very bad karma for himself as we know what he's been up to all his life as a baba lying
He knows the devil, has his back
Posted by: Trez | October 22, 2024 at 12:35 PM