Harris-Trump debate shows how political lies are like religious lies

In both politics and religion, lies are commonplace. I'm defining "lie" as a person saying something that isn't true, because there isn't any persuasive evidence supporting the statement.

God loves you is a lie, since there's no persuasive evidence that God exists, so there's no entity to love or do anything else. You'll go to heaven after you die is another lie given the lack of evidence for life after death.

People believe in religious lies for a variety of reasons. For example, it feels good to embrace warm supernatural fantasies that are more appealing than the cold truth of reality. Accepting lies also is a requirement for belonging to most religions, where people enjoy fellowship with other lie-believers.

But there's also great satisfaction in embracing truth, of being part of a reality-based community.

That's how I felt watching the 90 minute debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump last night, the first (and maybe also the last) debate they'll have after Joe Biden withdrew from the presidential race following his horrible debate performance against Trump last June. 

Along with a couple of instant reputable polls, I felt that Harris won the debate. Not by a little, by a lot. I wrote about this in a post for one of my other blogs, "Harris beat Trump so badly in the debate, I almost feel sorry for him." 

CNN fact-checked both candidates, finding that in the debate Trump had more than 30 false claims, lies, while Harris had just one. In my post I wrote about one of the strangest lies Trump spewed. 

A memorable moment in the debate, which I'm pretty sure made the heads of Trump's advisors explode, because it was exactly what they'd advised Trump not to do, was when he brought up the absurd MAGA lie about immigrants from Haiti eating pet cats and dogs in Springfield, Ohio. Obviously that's completely false. 

When Trump blathered on about this lie, I stopped our recording of the debate to take a photo of the split screen reaction from Harris. Her look, along with Trump's angry expression, summed up the entire debate. Harris relaxed and pleasant, Trump tense and angry. 

Here's a video of Trump lying about the pet killings by Haitian migrants. He also lies about Harris paying people to attend her rallies.

The scary thing is that about 46% of American voters, roughly, continue to support Trump even though it is obvious that he's a habitual liar. I'm confident that most of them espouse truthfulness in their personal lives.

So how is it that Trump can command such loyalty even though he shamelessly spouts all kinds of lies every time he opens his mouth? Well, for the same reason that religious leaders are supported and worshipped even though they shamelessly spout all kinds of lies every time they open their mouths. 

Cult leaders attract followers because many people enjoy belonging to a community of like-minded believers even though those beliefs lack evidence to support them, being lies. Standing up for truth is much more difficult than lying down and letting lies wash over you.

However, the truth is more satisfying than lies. Yes, it takes more work to separate fact from fiction, truth from lies, reality from fantasy. But that's why I'm a Democrat rather than a Republican, and an atheist rather than a religious believer.

I don't want to follow a cult leader, whether that individual is a politician like Trump or a religious personage like gurus who behave badly. Since 2004 I've preached the gospel of spiritual independence on this blog. 

Truth means more to me than belonging to a group that demands the acceptance of lies as the price of admission. The Democratic Party isn't perfect, nor are the atheists that I know. By and large, though, I enjoy the company of people who value truth and abhor lies much more than those who make falsehoods their daily companion.

That's why I enjoyed last night's debate so much.

Kamala Harris has her flaws, but she will be a hugely better president than Trump in part because truth comes easily to her, a testimony to her upbringing by an Indian mother and to a considerably lesser extent, by her Jamaican father who didn't have much contact with her after her parents divorced.

Comments

[um]

The anti-authority movement has final reached the mob, the plebs, the underclass, the masses.

Masses that have been exploited by the intellectual elite since human memory.

Have a look in your country, how wealth, every imaginable form of wealth, is distributed ... and ... you will understand the real causes, that move people to chose and vote.

Give people a house, some food, some clothes and some dignity and they will be at peace, take these things away and the barbarians will knock at your door in a barbarian way.

This .. this the outcome of the evil of wealth.

The evil of wealth, is not that much the [reprehensible] ways that wealth was acquired etc but the [ intended or unintended] suggestion, that this wealth is a sine qua none for a normal human life.

That evil is spread by now for years and years 24/7 in public media all over the globe

If the elite, think they can go on leisurely, reading their newspapers, having their coffee and a croissant or toast in the morning while the rest of the world is dying from hunger, they are .... yes what word would one use here to adequately describe their state of mind, their belief in reality.

They will come walking, by the tens, later by the hundreds and then by the thousands.

They might not be educate, not able to express themselves in a cat clean way, but they are certainly aware of the TRUTH of reality they face everyday and that they did not cause that reality.

Finaly the fine elite of the west should ask themselves ..What have WE done wrong that they come after us, want to destroy us and whatever is near and dear to us.

Do no look at the immigrants, the religious terrorists, the palestenians etc etc...as yourself people in the west what YOU have done to provoke it.

THAN ... you also will understand the rise of people like TRUMP and the function of religion and the ways why and how people clking to religious narratives.

[Ron E.]

I did watch some of the highlights of the debate and laughed at Trump’s MAGA conspiracy lie re-garding immigrants eating pets. My interest in American politics arose a few years ago when Trump was elected president. I found it hard to believe that people fell for his rhetoric but mostly concerned with his (and many republicans) denial of the world’s most pressing issue, climate change.

Recently there was a news item in the ‘I’ newspaper where the United Nations human rights chief, Volker Turk had said: - “I urge voters to ask themselves which of the political platforms or candidates will work for the human rights of everyone. And I urge all voters to be vigilant. Be wary of the shrill voices, the ‘strongman’ types that throw glitter in our eyes, offering illusory solutions that deny reality.”
He denounced some politicians who “scapegoat migrants, refugees and minorities” around electoral periods in places like France, Germany, Hungary, the United Kingdom and the U.S.

His words “offering illusory solutions that deny reality” struck me as not only relating to politicians but also to the many spiritual organisations that we glibly believe and follow. There are of course a host of emotional and communal reasons for being a believer along with our existential dilemmas of sickness, aging and death but I’d like to believe (think) that we will eventually grow out of them.

Um’s comment here is quite true and apt, but sadly the reality is that no matter how comfortable and wealthy people are we still want to believe – and perhaps fight for – what we call something better. And again, sadly as history shows, when the ‘barbarians’ or the proletariat take over, very soon the same old hierarchy re-establishes in some way. Fear and greed fuel the search for some sort of guaranteed security underlying human nature and is inherent in many of our institutions – and very prominent in political and religious endeavours.

[Appreciative Reader]

It was a hoot. A complete laugh fest. …Oh, and Harris wiped the floor with orange goo, God bless her. …The debate was a pleasure to watch, beginning to end.

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“The scary thing is that about 46% of American voters, roughly, continue to support Trump”

Agreed. That there should be creatures like Trump, is no big deal. That there are so many who, even now, continue to be taken in by him, that’s what is, as you say, “scary”. That there should be so many who are so utterly lacking in wits, so utterly lacking in spine, so utterly lacking in moral discernment, so utterly lacking in the smallest smidgen of intellectual integrity, and so utterly lacking in, as you say, an understanding and appreciation of truth, that is what is really “scary”.

God bless Harris. She seems to have turned the tide, decisively.

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Despite the hilarity that was the debate, and the general all-round hilarity that is Trump, but make no mistake: circus clown or no, the man represents an existential threat for the US; and, given the position of the US in the world in both hard and soft terms, to an extent to the world at large.

Like so many have said, some of them Republicans themselves, the US may not survive another term of Trump. Sanity and order and democracy and rule of law, and all of those freedoms people take for granted, these are all far more fragile than we sometimes imagine.

Given Trump’s openly dictatorial intentions; and given this Project 2025 nonsense; and most importantly given the inability, or maybe unwillingness, of so many Americans to tell good from bad, and right from wrong, and truth from untruth: one more Trump term is all it will take for the nightmare to take hold, a nightmare that may never end, a nightmare that might see the US descend to becoming another Russia, another China, another India, another Pakistan, another Saudi Arabia. …And while Russia and China and Saudi and Pakistan have long suffered from tyrannical governments and lack of freedom, particularly concerning is the fate of India, which executed a sudden U-turn back into darkness, back from having bootstrapped itself into sanity and freedom. …Another term of Trump, and that might well be the fate of the US as well, and these freedoms, like the freedom of speech, that are so taken for granted that people are unable, sometimes, to conceive even of what it means to not have it, might soon become no more than a memory.

God bless Harris for showing up Trump for the comical pathetic little man that he really is. That had long been amply clear to anyone with eyes to see; but given that so many continue, like lemmings, to follow this vile creature down whatever absurd reprehensible path he leads them, it was vitally important that she clearly show up this lying lowlife for what he is. Which she did, utterly and completely, God bless her.

If only the same were possible in other parts of the world as well, everywhere where pathetic little men strut around in their bubbles of lies and deceit, bubbles that completely take over their entire nations, and end up snuffing out light and reason and freedom. …It may be much too late for them, but at least it isn’t too late for the US, at any rate, to pull back from the brink, back to sanity and freedom.

[Appreciative Reader]

Haha, it's amazing, what the orange clown himself, as well as so many of his stunned supporters, are going around saying. They're complaining that the moderators fact-checked only the ugly felon in the shiny suit and silly tie, and not the cool lady prosecutor. The fact that it was just the ugly orange felon that was, per usual, belting out lie after lie after lie after lie, is a fact that, astonishingly, completely escapes them!

[um]

@ AR

People that are able ... >> to tell good from bad, and right from wrong,<< ...do not easily get wealthy, in any capacity material or immaterial.

They would for example not endeavor to go to the moon and use their material and immaterial resources to end the misery that humans have created for themselves or they find a way to change economy so that shareholders.are no longer needed.

[Ruby Mann]

Just curious Appreciative Reader, why does the expression "God bless" come up quite frequently in your above comment? We all have a pretty good idea of your feelings regarding religion and spirituality. So why the use of that expression? Again, I am just curious since it is coming from you.
Anonymous

[Appreciative Reader]

"Just curious Appreciative Reader, why does the expression "God bless" come up quite frequently in your above comment?"

Haha, figure of speech, Ruby. And habit. Much like "Damn", and "RIP". And "God willing", I use that quite a bit as well --- IRL, at any rate, I don't remember whether I've used that expression here.

Actually, I sometimes envision a time, a few generations down, when this absurd anachronism that is religion has died out completely. Most kids, like kids tend to do, are oblivious of the crazy religious ideas that their great-grandparents lived in and with. While obviously that knowledge is not lost, and lives on in history, available to all to read up should they care to; but for the people at large, the only thing that remains of religion is odd expressions like these: like "Jesus", and "Christ's sake", and "God bless", and "God speed", and "Damn", and "Goddamnit", and "RIP", and "God willing", and so on.

These terms to contain a certain, I don't know, a sense, that would be difficult to reproduce otherwise. Like "RIP" --- how better to express your (sincere) condolence, even if you don't believe there's a soul that might literally rest in peace?

[sant64]

I also feel that Harris won the debate, similar to Lia Thomas's winning in female swimming events.

Trump was fact-checked five times and Harris none. There were several times where Harris should have been fact-checked; one primary example is the Charlottesville event where Harris lied about what Trump said. That has been debunked for years, by Snopes and other impartial assessments. Davis and Muir had to be well aware of that. But did they fact-check Harris? No, total silence.

But the sound of rich white liberals living in tony white neighborhoods isolated from the national crises of vagrant encampments and the 10 million illegals that have recently flooded working-class communities? Their chortling never stops. "Hee hee hee, it doesn't affect me."

[um]

The CAT CLEAN, the intellectual elite, create laws and revelations for OTHERS, laws and regulations that have little or no meaning, value or necessity where they live.

They only meet, well educated, schooled foreigners . That is interesting, that is enriching one's live.

Those immigrants, that come in masses from the country side of their own countries, where they had never the opportunity to deal with anything else than their own traditions, are housed in neighborhoods where people live that also never had to deal with anything else than their own traditions ...both parties just miss the social and cultural skills that is needed for integration., living together

Who is to blame .. if the cat clean intellectual elite did not created the circumstances to leave their own countries why would anybody for heaven's sake do so?

Trump is the chief of the destitute masses. ...these masses might not be educated, social and cultural cat clean but they are no fools, they know who and what Trump is and none of them would have their daughters married with him,, jet they will vote for him hoping that he will break the hypocrite elite and tear down their veils from their grim faces.

People can only become wealthy at the cost of the misery of others.

In older days they would live in Castles, dressed up in fine clothes, spending their days with lofty mental things, art and sciences .. while outside people would live in mud like animals, people that had toiled for these elite to live in safety and luxury
And so came the cathedrals to be

Those days have not gone my friends ..walk through your down town cities and see the modern castles and how the people that live there, they call it work, spend their days in sheer luxury

Nothing has changed friends, nothing

Art, science etc is only possible by the misery of mankind.

[um]

At home we learned that to handle machines and tools one had to learn how to use them without danger for one's self and others.

Let me give and example. One day our dad told me one making ice cream, to get an dish-towel and wet it. Having done that he said: "now stand back and warp the point of the towel around the spindle. I did and the very moment it seemed if my arm was torn from my body. Having found mt composture he informed me that people in the business had lost that way their lives, wearing lose clothing like ties and having put the electric emergency switch out of work, having put machines coupled.

Many abstract, immaterial things are also TOOLS. The internet is one and also knowledge.

To use these instruments one has to be trained in order to refrain from danger.

More and more governments etc start to understand the harm of smartphones during school and start to ban them. They also start to understand the toxic effect of Tictoc, influences etc on [young] people

The internet was originally developed to exchange information between universities, institutes where people are schooled to seek, handle and digest information according set rules

Then the access was given by these cat clean intellectual advocates to the masses as a token of "freedom of speech and information" .. masses that have not been trained in the same way ... it is like a parent that gives a toddler a handgun to play with.

The same happened with the use of softdrugs etc.

etc
etc
etc

All orchestrated by the intellectual elite ... forcing others to live their way while they cannot for many different reasons.

Lao Zi understood all thse things when he rebuked Confucius

Nothing has chanmged

[manjit]

Yes, nothing brings to mind God's blessings more than babies and children being orphaned, massacred, mutilated, sexually abused, dismembered etc every single day for 11 months due to the grace of American tax payers, all whilst our media, politicians and patriotic citizens pretend it isn't happening 🙏 Sant Genocide Joe and Maharani Killer Kamala are Perfect Living Politicians.

Now, on blogs like these the inane propaganda and lies of mass media are mindlessly parroted and regurgitated as if something insightful, revealing or thought provoking is being shared, rather than the mindless Ra Ra cheerleading it actually is. For anybody with an actual interest in how the world works, and in information, journalism or "news" which isn't the mindless propaganda of mainstream media which absolutely everybody is already aware of as it's shoved down our throat 24/7, I suggest watching the following, short video. If you do and you understand it, you will be far more informed and knowledgeable about the world than 98% of US citizens, like our good Brian, who swallow the bullshit from their propaganda news channels whole and completely without question, then regurgitate it as if they are adding something to the debate:

https://youtu.be/-QPQe3llaKQ?si=_n2nwWZu_zXQjSEh

[manjit]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2024/sep/14/trump-is-such-a-sad-wannabe-despot-how-can-he-be-so-close-to-kamala-in-the-polls

[manjit]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSyun23LMkqBh-9UKy3vyFm5U9EWmLS_Wz-Nw&s

Good summary of the US election?

[um]

@ Manjit

There and there have always all sorts of wars going on ...Many years ago it has been an issue about the what how the USA controlled the food market in general and how they tried to ruin the Japanese rice market so that they could sell their rice and and in the same way control the country.

Russia has done the same for decades at a stretch with grain. Probably that is the very reason why they do not want Ukraine to get out of the sphere of influence.

These things are all there in history books and if people had given it some attention they would know and understand these affairs of the worlkd.

It has has always been here ...greed, attachment etc ..the 5 foes ...and as long as they are part of the human mind, these things will go on. What changes is the form and the rate ..the latter is going up like tangent. ..fewer people getting richer and richer and more people poorer and poorer

It is in nobodies hand Manjit to change it.

If the hurricane comes, it destroys, like the eruption of the Vulcano, the tsunami, the drought,etc etc

What you look at are "cultural disasters" as equivalent to the natural disasters.

Those that are hit by a disaster suffer .. fortunate are those that live elsewhere. and it is all in nobodies hands. .. it is just fate, karma or whtever one wants to call it.

What remains in the end is how we as individual spend our lives.

[um]

@ Manjit

If it pains you too much, buy a child an ice cream or participate in some community work as volonteer .. have a walk in the forest and coffee afterwarts.

THESE are things YOU can do for yourself ..and ..in doing so for the world.at large.

YOU as individual are here to look after yourself ..humans better not act as if they could and should change the world for the better. ..that is always adding more and more misery too what there is by nature.

Do not get angry at me.

[manjit]

Hi Um, as I have pointed out multiple times to you over the past few decades, I totally disagree with your nihilistic fatalism, indifference, lack of personal agency, inability to change either ourselves or the world, holding hegemony, patriarchy and oppression to account etc

You have a very one sided and imo incomplete understanding of what it means to be human, as is evidenced by your very one dimensional responses to people who are critical of RS and it's gurus, attempting to shoo them away saying don't look outside but inside.... well, no, look BOTH outside and inside. DO speak openly and critically about gurus, if you want to. This is to be human. The world doesn't move by people doing nothing and just throwing up their hands and saying that's the way it is, a crow is a crow or whatever, despite how many times you repeat it.

Last week you mentioned mysticism was an escape from the horrors of the world. Well, sorry to repeat myself, but I think this is a delusion born of your past association with fake mystics and a dead spiritual theology.

The mystical experience is pure immersion into these horrors of the world, not escape.

Having followed fake babas and, predictably, having had no genuine or notable mystical experiences, insights or most importantly radical ontologically shifts in being yourself, you conflate this intellectual and emotional understanding of this fake and dead Radhasoami doctrine with the genuine mystical experience, thinking Charan's anecdote about gold chains is some great insight from a mystic as opposed to the intellectual regurgitation of medieval Indian doctrine from the family rep of a business purporting to be a spiritual path.

You have been deeply misled.

[um]

@ Manjit

There are those upon hearing the sound of a rooster smile lift up their arms in expectation of ..."starting a brand new day"

Others would love to kill the beast

For the rooster it is just what it is, he was made to be so and his creator on seeing him was satisfied ...see \Genisis.

[um]

@ Manjit

Which mystic, tradition etc told the world to stand up to evil, to denounce it and fight it?

[Appreciative Reader]

Hey, manjit. *waves*

Some brief observations, if I may. Some of these I’d touched on the other day as well, briefly; but I never did get to hear your thoughts about them. So maybe I could revisit them now, in context of what you said here.

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“nothing brings to mind God's blessings more than babies and children being orphaned, massacred, mutilated, sexually abused, dismembered etc every single day for 11 months due to the grace of American tax payers”

Well, not to forget, due to grace of UKian tax payers as well! To a far lesser degree, I agree, given the relative inconsequentiality of the UK in world affairs today (vis-à-vis the US at any rate); but still.

My point is --- although my grasp of UK politics and the policies of the two major parties is sketchy at best --- there is little the individual UK voter can do to change anything, as long as neither of the two major parties are willing to come down hard on Israel: not just to the extent of lessening the quantum of aid, which at this point will not make any difference in the short run, but actually sanctioning the murderous Bibi and his murderous government and IDF.

Now you may register your protest in other ways, certainly. But as far as voting, and as far as supporting one of the two major parties (which are the only two realistic options in the short run, and the short run is all that matters for the Israel conflict at this time) --- you can choose to support neither and vote for neither, certainly: but first, that protest will not, again, translate to any real difference to the dying Palestinians; and two, that is probably a luxury you UKians can wallow in only as long as the worst you’ve got is the buffoonish BoJo and Sunak and that woman who came in before him I forget her name she who tanked the economy, as opposed to a dictator wannabe who, for all that he is a circus clown, may well snuff out democracy and all of the freedoms people take for granted, if he now gets half a chance.

Likewise the US voter, surely? …I mean, did you watch the debate? As far as Israel, two things, manjit: One, did you hear what Trump what had to say? He criticized Harris’s Israel policy, saying that if she came to power then within two years Israel would cease to exist. Now he’s a dishonest fool who has no compunctions about lying his ass off whenever he opens his mouth; but that does indicate that he has no intention of actually sanctioning Israel. (And that stands to reason, in any case, and apart from the debate. I’d briefly outlined to you the other day the crazies that are significant among his core support groups, that are rabidly pro-Israeli-genocide and rabidly-anti-Palestine. There’s no way he’s going to alienate them, and come down hard on Israel. All he’ll do is, maybe, tune down the US dollars flowing into Israel ---- and that, in the short run, will make zero difference to the dying Palestinians.)

And also: Harris isn’t Biden. It isn’t realistic to expect her to do a volte face on Israel now, before she’s gotten elected, obviously. But she does have the balls to clearly say, even at this very critical juncture, during the debate, that she is very critical of the killings and of how Israel is conducting their war (yes, I know, it’s not so much war as genocide, I myself agree fully), and also that she unequivocally supports and will push for the two-nation thing there. …At which point Trump actually tells her that she hates Israel!

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PARDON THE ALL-CAPS, THIS IS ONLY TO HIGHLIGHT THIS SECTION, WHERE I SUMMARIZE MY POSITION ON THIS MATTER AND HAVE IT STAND OUT FROM THE REST OF THE COMMENT --- because I’d like you to focus on this part rather than incidental things in my comment, and see what I’ve said earlier, both in the earlier section of my comment as well as what I said the other day, as support for what I’m going to sum up now ---- …so yeah, what I’m saying is:

1. Yes, Genocide Joe, agreed, manjit. Yes, by extension, Killer Kamala as well, agreed as far as that as well. …But, my point is, that I’d made briefly the other day, and that you keep ignoring: should Trump come in, it will make no difference! He’ll certainly not sanction Israel (see above); he’ll in fact continue to support Israel (again see above); and the only difference between his Israel policy and Harris’s will likely be the quantum of aid; and simply a dialing down of that at this point will not make any difference at all in the short run. Therefore, as far as Israel, it’s really moot, whom you support. Palestinians will keep on dying. Which is shocking, which is heart-breaking, which is evil: but bringing in Trump will not change that. …Therefore, it makes no sense at all to support Trump on that count.

2. This second point is admittedly not certain, it is my personal take. I don’t know if it will actually happen. But I have this feeling that Harris’s Israel policy will, down the line, be different than Biden’s. She’ll come down harder on Israel’s wanton killings ---- don’t forget she gave the murderous Bibi the brush-off when he’d come visiting. And she’ll press harder for the two-state solution, is the sense I get from what she went down on a limb and said in the debate, despite that being such a crucial time for her. …She can’t do that just yet, she needs to get elected first. But once in, we’ll see a more humane Israel policy than Biden’s completely incompetent and in fact evil handling of the whole matter. …Again, don’t ignore this. Harris gave Bibi the brush-off, while Trump did not: and the orange horror had the nerve to throw that in her face in the debate.

3. This is not a third point per se, but a summing up and emphasizing of #1 and #2. At best (for Trump), the two are equivalent in terms of what actually happens to the genocide situation. And at best (for Harris), her administration will actually be more humane than Trump’s, in terms of, maybe, actually sanctioning Israel going forward, something Trump will never ever do. …Therefore, as far as the Israel genocide: either it is moot which of the two gets in; or else it might actually be better, as far as the genocide specifically, if Harris gets in. …Even if I’m mistaken about my personal evaluation as far as the latter, even so, certainly Trump will be no better, and in that case it is moot who gets in.

4. We both care about the evil genocide happening there. But in as much it is moot which of the two gets in, as far as the genocide, then that cannot be a factor in choosing the one over the other. …Now in other times one might have chosen not to support either: but at this juncture, when democracy and freedom themselves are at stake ---- and no, that’s not “left-wing propaganda”, Trump has openly tomtommed his dictatorial intentions, he’s already actually supported insurrection except he failed, and he’s not once distanced himself in terms of disagreeing with that evil Hitlerish manifesto that is Project 2025. …Therefore, Americans have not the luxury of abstaining, and must therefore choose the lesser evil (“evil”, I mean, in terms specifically of the genocide situation).

5. What makes Trump despicable are two things: one, how completely despicable is every aspect of this foul person, lacking in even one redeeming feature (no, not even in terms of the Israel genocide, as you keep indirectly implying). And if you agree with me that which of the two gets in is moot in context of the ongoing carnage by Israel: then what one necessarily has to focus on is the fact that, should Trump get in, then democracy and freedom in the US may actually become a thing of the past.

6. And finally, one thing. This is my personal view, I haven’t seen anyone else speak about this. But I do believe that the survival of democracy and freedom in the US --- which is going to be at very real risk should Trump get in again, and to say that is an understatement --- is important for Americans certainly, but in a sense it is important for the world as a whole. …See, it won’t much matter, in isolation, if the UK say were swamped under a dictatorship, not to the world at large --- not in the same dramatic way and to the overwhelming degree as the US falling to a neo-Hitler will. …At this point in time, when in so *much* of the world, freedom and democracy are at risk (see Europe, see South America, see Asia): the US does stand out as a symbol of freedom. Which is not to say the US is perfect, of course not, most assuredly not: but certainly if Trump were to usher in another Nazi-Germany-like situation in the US, then, given that this is the US we’re talking about, then that’ll snuff out light and darkness from all of those other places in the world which have already gone under, but which still hope to one day emerge back into light. ……….(And please don’t think this is “US exceptionalism”, if you think that you’ll be completely missing the nuance here I’m trying to convey --- which again, let me add, is just my personal take, and the case for Harris over Trump stands even without this point.)

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So that, absolutely, I say again, God bless Harris for finally offering a way out, as Biden was not able to, to keep Trump and his crazies at bay this time. To say that is NOT to let the Israeli genocide slide; to say that is NOT to downplay the evil that is the genocide. The point is, and as I’ve discussed, it is simply incoherent to support Trump over Harris ---- or to refrain from supporting Harris over Trump, which amounts to the same thing --- because of the genocide. …So that, given how dire is the situation now, yes, in terms of being existential, absolutely: then absolutely it makes sense to root for Harris.

( And please don’t throw out empty unsubstantiated calumny, not even by implication, by simply labeling this position as either insensitive to genocide, or for that matter as regurgitation of left-wing propaganda. I’ve clearly spelled out the overall case for Harris over Trump; and further I have clearly shown why it is simply incoherent to support Trump over Harris, or even to refrain from supporting Harris over Trump, because of one’s strong feelings about the Israeli genocide. Any coherent rebuttal of this position will necessarily need to clearly address these specifics --- again, see the six points in the preceding section. [Admittedly with the sixth point a personal take that we can leave out of the discussion if you insist that it reeks of American exceptionalism, even though I’ve tried my best to discuss that nuance and show how that isn’t so; I mean the case for Harris and against Trump is ironclad even without introducing that admittedly personal take of mine that is the sixth point, should you disagree with it, the last sixth point that is.] )

[Appreciative Reader]

manjit: completely separately from the Israel thing above; and also completely separately from the larger discussion you’ve been having with um here and your disagreement with him: I wonder if you’d clarify for me one incidental portion from your comment to him that caught my eye, and that I was curious about. Not just idly curious, but it did seem important, that bit. I mean this portion from your comment addressed to um:

“…genuine or notable mystical experiences, insights or most importantly radical ontologically shifts in being yourself…”

You clearly separate out mystical experiences on one hand, and “radical ontological shift of one’s being” on the other (and the latter, you highlight, is the more important thing).

I wonder if you’d elaborate, and clarify this for me. What exactly would a radical ontological shift in one’s being amount to? Can you describe and discuss this clearly for me, and maybe also, for greater clarity, illustrate this with your own personal experience and perspective of it?

[Appreciative Reader]

There’s a whole spate of memes going around about Trump’s unhinged Haitians-immigrants-in-Springfield-are-eating-people’s-pets-their-dogs-their-cats rant during the debate, all set to music. …Here’s a couple links, enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTF6Jzav8wk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tvfF6zfCHY

[Appreciative Reader]

Here's a longer, fuller version of the first link I'd been forwarded, that kind of ended abruptly, that initial link. This longer link does fuller justice to the "extraordinary genius" of the one and only ....Trrrump!

Link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3BrCvZmSnKA#

Enjoy!

Oh, and all of you, boys and girls, and regardless of whether or not you are a proud denizen of the glorious land of the brave, and the free, and the stars, and the stripes, and the one and only Trump: Put up your right hand (or, if you're a stable genius like Trump, and can't tell right from left, or hand from foot, then just put up any one of those long appendages of yours, that have those five little things sticking out at the end of them, one of those two that don't have shoes attached to them): And repeat after me:

MAHA! ...Make America Hilarious Again!

MAHA!

[manjit]

Hi Appreciative Reader, hope all is well.

I'm afraid you have, again, completely missed the point I am making due to the extreme brainwashing and indoctrination you, as an American, have been exposed to US culture & the pro-military-industrial-complex MSM you mistakenly think is engaging in "journalism". You have repeatedly radically misunderstood & misrepresented my perspective & point, and furthermore even despite that your entire arguments in support of Biden & Kamala are riddled with inconsistencies, incoherencies and mistruths.

Without spending (wasting?) too much time on this, I will attempt to highlight your chief fallacies rapidly, in response to your comments & numbered questions:

" But as far as voting, and as far as supporting one of the two major parties"

Why must we "support one of the two major parties"? Please explain why you assume we must do this? Actually, don't. We simply don't need to "support" "one of the two major parties". No requirement whatsoever. This mistaken assumption of yours, as well as your ridiculous inference that by pointing out the cold, hard facts about Biden & Kamala, that I must be "supporting" Trump, is demonstrative of the binary, simplistic, tribal and cultic nature of this discussion, for some folks. This mistaken assumption of yours, which remains despite my clearly pointing out repeatedly it is absurd and completely missing my point, also covers many of your other non sequitur and meaningless replies/questions to me.

"but first, that protest will not, again, translate to any real difference to the dying Palestinians"

Well, thanks for your penetrating insight clearly born, no doubt, from both a deep and genuine concern for Palestinians, as well as insight into how the world works.

Now, I may have personally heard and seen from many hundreds of Palestinians, most often children, just how deeply grateful they are for the global "protests", and how it is helping keep them alive and sane, writing messages on their tents for eg. thanking the world, but I'm sure YOUR insight here is the one I should be paying attention to. Just like your Biden and Kamala, who keep telling us over and over and over and over again for the past 11 months just how much they care for "innocent Palestinian" deaths, even as they fall over themselves to send more bombs and block the international community from putting an end to the brutality and inhumanity.

"I mean, did you watch the debate?"

Dear AR, please don't talk shit talk me! Every imbecile was exposed to the debate whether they wanted to be or not. You're not really adding any information or insight when your say these things. You're, just like our esteemed blog host, merely ra ra cheerleading for your team.

On the other hand, did YOU ever listen to that audio and video clip of Trump talking about Israel and Palestine, the one I've mentioned several times, and is being played or shared absolutely nowhere else that is mainstream? Your lack of comment regarding that clip is both interesting and revealing. This whole discussion is a charade, and you're simply not capable of extending beyond your irrational and incoherent biases which you have been indoctrinated into by the war machine loving mainstream media. Facts be damned! I will repeat it AGAIN: that video and audio shows an honesty and genuine human warmth for the Palestinian people that I have never encountered from any previous US president and a genuine, and a warm human side to "racist" Trump that the MSM would never allow you to see. You can ignore that penetratingly insightful clip as much as you like whilst simultaneously asking if I saw and understood Trump's comment during the mass-wall-to wall-covered debate, but I think that merely highlights the depth, or lack of, our respective positions.

Yes, as I have already hinted at previously, Trump is a complex character and, yes, one that I believe will say anything to get into power, and his primary care or concern in life appears to be his narcissistic self. But, as I have attempted to subtly hint at earlier, though I can appreciate it will be lost on ra ra cheerleaders, THAT is what makes him unpredictable and of NO USE to the military industrial complex which is in full, 100% control of Biden and Kamala, who are merely their impotent puppets. So where Trump is saying anything (y'all love calling Trump a pathological liar, but you're 100% certain he wasn't lying when he said this though? Y'all are great mind readers!) to win the Zionist vote (and, by extension the election as Zionists absolutely control US politics and media), Biden and Kamala are actually engaging in REALITY (not inside Trump's head on a televised debate, you surely can tell the difference, right?) the most brutally racist genocide, whilst lying out of the side of their mouth that they care oh so deeply for the innocent Palestinians. This appears to be a nuance or complexity to the discussion that is beyond it's current scope.

SIDENOTE: Before I proceed, let's make it absolutely clear here. Biden & Kamala could end the genocide and restore a modicum of peace to the Mid East and by extension the world OVERNIGHT by refusing to send more bombs (paid for by US taxpayers) to massacre children. As disgusting as it would be to say, surely they can say "11 months of massacring children is enough"?, but we are in an unfathomable situation where they are falling over themselves to send more and more and more weapons to kill innocent people. As truly horrific and abysmal this inhumanity is, it compounds the horror, injustice and inhumanity when these cowardly politicians lie without any shame "there are too many innocents dying", "we care about Palestinians", "The killing of innocents must stop", "we are investigating the latest of the many thousands of barbaric murders, rapes, abuses etc of babies, children, women and men that have been documented and proven".........all brazen lies only THE most gullible, naive and brainwashed of folks can stomach without falling violently sick. The US is not merely ENABLING the genocide, it is actually COMMITTING genocide. Well, to the degree it is an independent country at all as opposed to merely the United States of Israel......

"But she does have the balls to clearly say, even at this very critical juncture, during the debate, that she is very critical of the killings and of how Israel is conducting their war"

Oh! Looky here, a bonus - a comment I've already replied to! Please see my prior comment, which addressed your comment here about Kamala's "balls", or as I would call it cowardly, mealy mouthed, dishonest lies to placate gullible tribe members who have a problem with not at least PRETENDING they're supporting genocide...

1) "But, my point is, that I’d made briefly the other day, and that you keep ignoring: should Trump come in, it will make no difference!" & "Therefore, it makes no sense at all to support Trump on that count."

I keep ignoring? I couldn't care less who "comes in", you're repeatedly missing my point!

If you had the slightest ability for independent thought, you SHOULD be asking "Why is our political system so broken that it doesn't matter which of the only 2 parties win, that our tax payer money should go to fund a genocide half away across the world and which increases the danger for the entire planet and benefits the US or it's citizenry in absolutely no discernable way?

Are you even beginning to catch up with me? I'll give you another clue; I'm not playing your inane, mindless, fact averse tribal ra ra cheerleading game. Does that help you understand my position, and why most of your response is entirely non sequitur?

As for "Therefore, it makes no sense at all to support Trump on that count.". Oh dear, you simply cannot see past "supporting Trump" can you, despite my numerous previous attempts to clarify this misunderstanding of yours. The indoctrination and brainwashing runs so deep, you really can't see past your own fury and distrust of Trump, which is entirely a product of your media.

2) "But I have this feeling that Harris’s Israel policy will, down the line, be different than Biden’s. She’ll come down harder on Israel’s wanton killings" & "She can’t do that just yet, she needs to get elected first."

Oh, you have "feelings" do you? 11 months of being a vice president of genocide but now you have some nice feelings?

Question for you: Do you know people are allowed to resign or protest about things, perhaps even risking or outright ruining their career for doing so? It seems to me not engaging in genocide is pretty much a no brainer situation to give that tactic a shot. Well, if you have any inkling of humanity left in you and you're not just focused on "getting elected first"....

3) Well this question is just plain silly, how hypothetically "humane" Kamala's presidency would be over Trumps' when in REALITY 4 years of Dem Biden/Kamala presidency has resulted in ACTUALITY in THE most inhumane and barbaric presidency imaginable, whilst Trump's was absolutely nothing of the sort. So vast and immeasurable is the distance, that other than pure delusion how can one explain this absurdity and complete break with reality?

This kind of fantasy prone thinking is getting kind of sad and pathetic, even as the US is engaged in the most barbaric and inhumane activities TODAY.

4) " then that cannot be a factor in choosing the one over the other"

Yawn, same old same old false reductionism of the point I am making.

It is possible to be so disgusted with GENOCIDE, that one can refuse to vote for the person/s committing it (in this case Biden & Kamala)....even if, GASP, the opponent has orange hair and says lots of funny, borderline racist/sexist things! I know, hard to believe isn't it......how can one find the slaughter of children worse than orange hair!

5) "What makes Trump despicable are two things: one, how completely despicable is every aspect of this foul person, lacking in even one redeeming feature (no, not even in terms of the Israel genocide, as you keep indirectly implying). "

Oh boy this is getting really quite pathetic now, AR, I'm sorry to say. All your talk of rationalism and adherence to semantic parsing and then you go and say something as obviously, and revealingly, absurd and inane as this. Really? What makes Trump so despicable is that is he completely despicable? Are you even hearing yourself? This is the kind of emotive, childish, circular reasoning we credit Bible Creationists with, isn't it?

Look, I get you're having a hard time dealing with facts and reality, and the fact ALL your media is telling you you're right (even when reality is overwhelmingly contradictory) is giving you too much confidence in your position.

As per our original conversation, you stated Trump was an "existential threat", in response I posted NUMEROUS unambiguous REAL WORLD examples of the very real, clear and imminent "existential threat" that the 4 years of a Democrat, Biden/Kamala government has imposed on all of humanity. In response, not only were you unable to post a SINGLE real world example of Trump's "existential threat", you were/are not even able to propose a speculative, hypothetical reason for his alleged "existential threat", instead descending into apparent emotive and childish unrelated name calling, thinking calling him a "rapist" and "crooked" (amongst other cutesy labels, such as "orange turd", I believe) somehow offsets ALL the NUMEROUS REAL WORLD examples of Biden/Kamala's CLEAR existential threats to all of humanity. And when I respond to this selective indignation and virtue signaling by pointing out neither Biden, Clintons or Democrats are immune from such sexual abuses of power or financial corruption, you again had no substantive (ie. fact as opposed to emotive based) response at all. Personally, I find sexual abuse and financial corruption quite reprehensible, WHOEVER is doing it, Democrat or Republican, Satguru or Scientist, but I'm not a tribal, ra ra cheerleader so I guess I have my own biases, integrity and a dislike of hypocrisy and double standards being amongst them.

6) " This is my personal view, I haven’t seen anyone else speak about this. But I do believe that the survival of democracy and freedom in the US"

Alas, my naive AR, whilst you may not have been alert to it, almost your entire comment proves that there is no such thing as a "real democracy or freedom in the US". A TWO party system where one must overlook, forgive and indeed ultimately cheerlead for genocide and where presidential candidates are constrained by what they can and cannot say, and where mass media attempts to completely dictate the narrative (even when the narrative is clearly and obviously untrue and even absurd, such as to claim it is Trump who is the existential threat even whilst their own candidate is war mongering and committing genocide all over the planets, going from zero (peace) to 60 (almost full out world war) in less than 4 short years!).

So, whilst you may feel concern about this US issue, you'll forgive me for indeed thinking this is American Exceptionalism and gullibility about the importance and workings of it's own "democratic" political system. You are of course free to construct as many (or should I say swallow whole media constructed) fantasies about this democracy or Trump's "threat" to it, as silly as they may sound to an outsider, but it is really of no interest or relevance to me or my points.

On a political note, there is a conversation to be had about the US (and other) political system, how to "fix it", how WITHOLDING a vote on such critical issues as GENOCIDE is how democracies are SUPPOSED to work rather than the binary two-party, cultic, sport-like, mindless tribal ra ra cheerleading it has become, but I fear that is a type of mature discussion way beyond the mindless tribalism on offer here on this blog, and something which is, essentially, of no interest to me personally.

All the best!

[Appreciative Reader]

Hey, manjit.

Read your comment just now.

I'll respond to it a bit later, tomorrow maybe. A bit rushed just now.

I'll just note this for now: The Israel thing apart, I'd requested you to clarify one thing that I'd found interesting. Maybe you missed that comment of mine. This one: link: https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2024/09/harris-trump-debate-shows-how-political-lies-are-like-religious-lies.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e202dad0d01da2200d#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e202dad0d01da2200d

It was a brief enough question, so I'll just copy that question here again. (Heh, I realize that the answer, on the other hand, might well be very involved!)

Copied from previous comment:

You clearly separate out mystical experiences on one hand, and “radical ontological shift of one’s being” on the other (and the latter, you highlight, is the more important thing). (...) I wonder if you’d elaborate, and clarify this for me. What exactly would a radical ontological shift in one’s being amount to? Can you describe and discuss this clearly for me, and maybe also, for greater clarity, illustrate this with your own personal experience and perspective of it?

Cheers

[Appreciative Reader]

All right, manjit, let’s do this, let’s wade into the Israel thing of yours.

(But let me, once again, reiterate my interest in understanding, clearly, what exactly you meant by “radical ontological shift of one’s being”, as distinct from as well as more important than mystical experiences per se. Preferably with your personal perspective as well, for better illustration. I’m really interested in what this might be. See my two comments immediately preceding.)

Right then, your Israel thing:

(And I’ll try to clearly number my response points, in order to --- hopefully! --- make for clarity, as well for your ease of reference when you respond back. Particularly the first point, and the rest as well more loosely.)

----------

1. You ask: “Why must we "support one of the two major parties"? Please explain why you assume we must do this?”

I don’t “assume” that, manjit, I *conclude* that. Here’s why:

1(a) US elections are close at hand.
1(b) Unfortunately, it’s a de facto two-party thing.
1(c) It’s a close enough race to the finish.
1(d) Therefore, for someone who’d normally vote for Harris this time, to not do that now specifically on account of their strong feelings over Israel, would de facto tip the race in favour of Trump.
1(e) Therefore, even to simply refrain from supporting Harris is tantamount to actually supporting Trump.

1(f) Specifically at this juncture, Trump’s getting re-elected might ring the death knell for democracy in the US. That isn’t scaremongering. First, Trump’s clearly said as much. Second, he’s actually already shown his intentions by his actions, I mean the Jan 2021 siege of the Capitol --- which was ridiculously inept in execution, but whose actual intent was clear enough.
1(g) Therefore, to not support Harris now would be tantamount to giving up on democracy in the US.

1(h) Further, should democracy be replaced with authoritarian government in the US, then that has very serious implications beyond just the US, it has very serious implications for the entire world. In both hard and soft terms, the US stands out as a beacon of hope for freedom and democracy, all of its many blemishes notwithstanding --- in a way that a UK, for instance, doesn’t. Certainly that’s because of US’s hard influence, in terms of both its economic as well as military clout. But there’s also the soft influence, in terms of the US standing out as a beacon of hope for freedom-loving and democratically minded folks everywhere in the world. (I’ll supply some specifics about that soft influence, in this specific context I mean to say, later in my comment.)
1(i) Therefore, certainly for Americans, but also in general for those that can’t vote in the US, this time around is crucial. I’ve already laid out, in 1(h) above, my argument why this time should matter to non-Americans. …But even if they care, can non-Americans actually accomplish anything, given that they can’t vote? I think they can, indirectly, given how connected is the world today. Their words can indirectly affect the outcome, to an extent; even though, obviously, the direct impact on these elections will only be via votes, American votes.

1(j) And that, manjit, is why I believe we *must* support Harris over Trump, all of us who value freedom and democracy. That is why we *must* support Harris despite our very strong feelings over the Israeli genocide, and despite our unqualified condemnation of Biden’s Israel policy. That is why I think *everyone* who values freedom and democracy should support Harris over Trump this time, even those who aren’t Americans and cannot vote in these elections.

----------

2. You said, about protests, that “I may have personally heard and seen from many hundreds of Palestinians, most often children, just how deeply grateful they are for the global "protests" ”

I meant that specifically with reference to the elections. Neither of the major parties in the US will, as things stand, countenance sanctioning Israel. Therefore it is moot whom we support, as far as Israel. Therefore, we must support Harris in order to preserve democracy, and keep authoritarianism at bay, in the US.

Sure, protests may offer moral support to the Palestinians. And you’re right, that moral support is not without worth. But that will not directly, and immediately, make any difference to the carnage.

…But there’s this about protests. Sometimes, when taken all the way, they do force change. Like Vietnam?

So if people have the stomach to do a Vietnam, then sure, I’m all for it. But not immediately. Doing that now will dilute the focused effort to eject the authoritarian Trump from the US. Once Harris is sworn in, then by all means. In any case I believe Harris will probably usher in a different Israel policy than Biden, as evidenced by her cold-shouldering of Bibi Netanyahu, and as witnessed by her publically and emphatically declaring herself in support of the two-nation model. No doubt protests at that point, after the elections, can help move the needle further down. …So, after the elections, and after Harris gets sworn in and Trump ejected for good, then sure, by all means.

----------

3. You keep telling me: “Oh dear, you simply cannot see past "supporting Trump" can you”.

Not until the elections, manjit. There’s too much at stake. For the US certainly, but also for the wider world.

After the elections, and after this specter of authoritarianism has been cast off for good, then absolutely, we can and should look at all of the other issues. Not much longer now.

----------

4. You sarcastically ask, referring to Harris: “Oh, you have "feelings" do you? 11 months of being a vice president of genocide but now you have some nice feelings?”

Like I said, I could well be mistaken in thinking that Harris’s Israel policy will be different than Biden’s. It’s just my personal take, after all. But even so, in as much Trump’s policy will not sanction Israel either, and in fact will continue to support that accursed murderous establishment (at Israel), then the matter is moot, as far as whom me support.

But let me clarify one more time: I’m basing my opinion that Harris’s Israel policy will be different than Biden’s based on two concrete things: one, her pointed cold-shouldering of Bibi Netanyahu, as opposed to Trump who was all over that murderous cretin; and two, her publically and clearly announcing her condemnation of the carnage and her support for the two-nation theory, even at this very delicate juncture, right before the elections. That’s why I think that once elections are done, she’ll do more to change the course of US policy on Israel.

----------

5. You ask: “What makes Trump so despicable is that is he completely despicable?”

Fair point. On that I hadn’t actually explained myself. I’m clear in my mind what I’d meant, but lacking telepathy how can you possibly divine that unless I spell it out?

I could clearly list, now, all of the things that make Trump despicable. So utterly despicable, even given the abysmal standards of politicians generally, that he’s not fit to be Prez. …But you know what, manjit, I won’t. This comment has already become very long, and I don’t want to make a full-on novella of it. …After all, the real reason why these elections are so *crucial*, that isn’t because Trump’s a low-life. That’s because of Trump’s authoritarian intentions, his dictatorial ambitions, that he’s clearly spelled out, and that he’s already started taking steps towards. The Capitol siege; the SC filled with puppets that, as a result, ended up holding him beyond the reach of law; his not distancing himself clearly from Project 2025, and in fact directly supporting portions of it; and his actually declaring his authoritarian intentions.

Agreed, though, this dictatorial thing is separate from the despicable thing. Let’s leave the despicable aside for now, as something that’ll take far too long to discuss, and as something that isn’t really why these elections are crucial. Let’s just focus on the dictatorial thing, the authoritarian thing, the snuffing out of democracy and freedom that a second Trump term will likely mean.

----------

6. You tell me, manjit, that “not only were you unable to post a SINGLE real world example of Trump's "existential threat", you were/are not even able to propose a speculative, hypothetical reason for his alleged "existential threat" “

The snuffing out of democracy and freedom in the US, *that* is the existential thread I was referring to. Existential threat for the US certainly; and by extension, and to an extent, for the world as a whole. Specifically in terms of his clearly authoritarian intentions, as I’ve already spelled out, above.

----------

7. You point out that: “there is no such thing as a "real democracy or freedom in the US". A TWO party system”

Agreed, manjit, those are flaws in the US system. Both the de facto two-party thing. As well as the absurd electoral college thing.

Not saying the US system is perfect. I’d be the last person to claim that, why would I? But for all that, it does not compare with authoritarianism, of the sort that Trump wants to bring in.

----------

8. Finally, manjit, you disagreed with my suggesting the especial importance of preserving democracy in the US (as opposed to, say, the UK), by saying this: “you'll forgive me for indeed thinking this is American Exceptionalism and gullibility about the importance and workings of it's own "democratic" political system”

Okay, manjit, like I’d already said, that’s my personal take. Like I said, the case for Harris and against Trump is ironclad even without bringing in this last point. Still, as far as this personal take of mine, where I was coming from is this: Quite apart from its economic clout and military might, the US stands out, in soft terms as it were, as a beacon of hope for those who value freedom. I’ve personally spoken with people from China, from Oman, quite a few from India, and from Thailand as well: countries where people don’t quite enjoy the freedoms and the democracy that are so taken for granted in the “First World” that folks don’t always even realize what it is to have to go without these rights. I can personally vouch that people in these countries, who value freedom, do look up to the US as a beacon of hope, as a symbol ---- and for that symbol to crumble, and to give in to authoritarianism, would actually break the back of hope, not just in the US but the world over.

It is on this basis that I suggest that to preserve democracy in the US is important to Americans certainly, but also more widely, and to the world as a whole. Should the kind of authoritarianism that Trump has openly talked about, and actually tried to engineer, overtake the US, then that will a tragedy not just for Americans, but for the world as a whole.

[manjit]

https://youtu.be/_got5rApjJ4?si=nSgnQjKKuOzV7RJR

This is Barbados's PM? Wow! Compare this politician with the absolute shitbuckets for brains we call the US presidential candidates.

Wow. Completely different planet of intelligence, insight, wisdom, character, strength etc. Just wow.

I'll let AR get back to convincing us all how the rest of the world looks up to America and it's great democracy 🤦🏽

[manjit]

Just saw this and I couldn't resist. Hilarious! Contrast this clip, which as a born Londoner with Indian heritage who has lived, loved, schooled and worked with uncountable people from all over the world, I can promise you reflects how almost the entire world views America and it's great democracy, American Exceptionalism delusions aside about how the rest of the world looks up to it:

https://youtube.com/shorts/4JKwy67PMJQ?si=otzX7hmsiEtqtphs

[manjit]

I am not a not at all knowledgeable about military tactics. But just using common sense, and trying to understand that people from countries other than USA and Israel are human also, what recourse is left for Iran as the United States of Israel continues without any shame, decency or humanity whatsoever it's barbaric, inhumane, racist, bloodthirsty campaign of genocide, ethnic cleansing and other war crimes in the middle east, destroying one Arabic country after another, and the monster Netenyahu at the UN openly bitch slapping his American and European "allies", especially Biden/Kamala who have been humiliated, and threatening Iran they're next in his "moral" of crusade of death and destruction to Arabs conducted entirely with US tax payer weapons and political cover which still continues to this day?

This won't end well, for anyone, I am certain of it. It may take 50 years, but balance will be restored, and there's an AWFUL lot of suffering Israel and it's foreign policy, supported by it's proxy USA, have unleashed upon the world, even as American citizens write off the deaths of many millions of innocent people under American bombs as not really important.

I don't think some people, especially Americans, appreciate what balance will entail, thinking as they do that only they matter...

[manjit]

I suspect there is a special place set aside for Anthony Blinken in hell. From an excellent channel hosted by 2 self hating , into semitic Jews, or decent human beings with a heart and integrity, a clip American democracy in action:

https://youtu.be/-PnaErqJEpQ?si=cGSSeETET_WQnXRU

And watching this I was led to the following video, highly recommended listening for all the delusional American exceptionalists here would prefer to stick their heads in the sand and cheerlead for genocide whilst all the while convincing themselves they are such decent human beings and how moral it is to support genocide when the opposition leader has orange hair:

https://youtu.be/Il8N0u49U-k?si=dC4tDvm4aSxz1Ak1

Go on, click the odd link I post and hear some real news instead of sticking your heads up your asses and calling it meditation, or regurgitating state propaganda and calling it political insight?

[um]

@ Manjit

All involved are fighting for their material, worldly, physical existence and their cultural survival in terms of identity, with religion etc.

As long as people not see themselves as human being but as this or that identification, they are prepared to kill and be killed.

Reading history books we all could know that sooner or later that clash between religions etc would happen .. it has to be that way ... self fulfilling prophecy

[Appreciative Reader]

"I'll let AR get back to convincing us all how the rest of the world looks up to America and it's great democracy"

That detailed, reasoned response of mine to your comment; that nuanced discussion of my position; and my repeated good-faith request for clarification about your reference to ontological shift of being: and *this* is all you have to say about it?

I'm afraid it doesn't appear you're doing this in good faith, manjit, neither your politics nor your alleged spirituality. I'm embarrassed at having taken so seriously what appears to be little more than a pose.

Carry on, my good wishes, always; but I'll save my breath now on.

[manjit]

Dear AR, your response was not on any level a "reasoned" or "nuanced" response, it was an inane and absurd reiteration of the same things you had repeated several times and which I already thoroughly and absolutely dismantled as the absurd and incoherent ramblings of American Exceptionalism that they plainly and clearly are, based on absolutely nothing other than the fantasies planted in your head. You have been unable to provide even a semi coherent or semi substantive reply in any of your comments to me. Overwhelmed by facts, you descended into unsubstantiated, emotive rambling. Just reread your facts and reality averse comments again.

So, yes, please, enough of your so called "good faith" arguments. They merely underscore how profoundly irrational you are.

Cheers.

[Appreciative Reader]

Like I said, I'll save my breath. On both.

Nevertheless, and again like I said, my sincere good wishes, manjit.

[manjit]

Both? Oh I see, you mean my "alleged spirituality"?

It is amusing to me you seem to have inferred I have any interest discussing "spirituality" with you or that you'd be doing me a favour by doing so.

Very, very amusing indeed. On so many levels.

All the best.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Manjit,……if Americans are so evil, than why are migrants risking their lives to flee their own countries and enter the U.S. illegally through open borders? How come Indians are the largest number of Immigrants to the U.S. the last decades? Americans in general, are generous people, regardless of Race or religion.
Americans are indeed known for their generosity, and the numbers back it up. After adjusting for inflation, charitable giving by Americans was nearly seven times larger in 2016 than it was 62 years prior ¹. This growth is remarkable, considering the U.S. population almost doubled during that period. On a per capita basis, charitable giving has increased by 3.5 times.

When it comes to donating to other countries in need, Americans lead the way. Private charitable giving from the U.S. to developing countries amounts to $44 billion annually, surpassing official government aid ¹. In fact, the U.S. sends a staggering $365 billion overseas annually to developing countries through various channels, including private charities, remittances, and private business investments ¹.

*Key Areas of Generosity:*

- *Financial Donations:* Americans donate generously to various causes, with 2% of the GDP going towards charitable giving ¹.
- *Volunteering:* Americans volunteer extensively, with estimates suggesting that the value of volunteered time ranges from $179 billion to over twice that amount per year ¹.
- *Food and Medical Aid:* Private charities and organizations play a significant role in providing food and medical assistance to countries in distress.

*Comparing Global Generosity:*

Studies have consistently shown that Americans are about twice as generous in their private giving as individuals from other countries ¹. This is likely due to factors such as:

- *Religious Faith:* Religious people in the U.S. are more likely to donate to charitable causes, including secular ones ¹.
- *Cultural Values:* Americans tend to value generosity and community involvement.
- *Economic Stability:* The U.S. enjoys a relatively high standard of living, enabling individuals to give more.

These factors combined create a culture of generosity in the United States, making Americans the most generous donors globally.

Just saying.
Jim Sutherland

[manjit]

Oh dear Jim, you just couldn't resist could ya buddy?!

Reading a comment from you reminds me how I feel sorry for Appreciative Reader - the irony is, he is one of the very least delusional and brainwashed out of you American Exceptionalists, we have folks here & the RSS group who follow hook, line & sinker the state propaganda, who cheerlead for Genocidal maniacs like Biden & Kamala, but throw hissy fits if someone drinks a glass of milk. Utter absurdity, and a marker for precisely why so many fail in the hyper-ego-centric "spiritual" path of RS.

AR is not that fellow, he is actually able to see, albeit partially, through the state propaganda....I recall his sceptical comments on the media representation & hypocrisy on the Ukraine war, for example, something that Brian and other folks swallowed whole. Despite being the very thinnest edge of the wedge of this delusional American Exceptionalism, he also was the only one who had the balls to defend these hypocrisies, double standards, genocidal apologism. So kudos to him, despite still being unable to read & respond to my arguments rationally. This is the power of cultural indoctrination. I do not blame him, but as per my original post, I lament for the tragedy that is the human condition.

As for your comment/s, of dear Jim, oh dear.

It is utterly pathetic that even as RIGHT NOW US bombs are killing hundreds of innocent people every day, mainly women & children, that you post this lame ass, google/ChatGPT "info" whilst completely ignoring the horror. Utterly pathetic, you should be ashamed of yourself, but I won't hold my breath.

If you search for "deaths caused by US military since WW2", you get dozens of links to articles about how many US military have died.....GOOD BOT! But if you show persistence and search around further, you find a link to something that actually answered the question I wrote:

"America has been in 19 wars since World War II, but we will list the death toll from three of the bloodiest conflicts: The Korean War, The Vietnam War and wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The total death toll of people killed by American troops in all these wars put together is over 12 million.

Each of these three conflicts have something in common: they were wars fought in the name of making the world "safe for democracy.""
https://www.worldfuturefund.org/Reports/Imperialism/usmurder.html

12 MILLION DEATHS.

I refuse to comment further on the horror and suffering this implies, if you don't get it, go do some work on your heart & soul.

In regards immigration, yes, I would suggest you educate yourself on the dynamics that makes mass migration a thing, and how almost all of it is driven by western imperialism.

But I won't suggest that to you, as it would be futile to imagine you could understand such complex geo-political affairs.

I mean, dude, you once wrote this on this blog 3 months after Rishi Sunak became UK's PM:

"The U.K. Has a Muslim Prime Minister, and Muslims have taken over London, with their Muslim Mayor, Khan."
https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2023/01/indias-modi-doesnt-want-people-to-see-bbc-documentary-critical-of-him.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e202af148e4745200c#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e202af148e4745200c

A "Muslim Prime Minister", Jim? Errr, nah. Hindu PM, Jim, Hindu. And what does religion have to do with a secular government Jim, you bigot?

The above is so utterly comical and ridiculous, I think this sort of idiotic comment should debar you from ever being involved in a public discussion on, well anything imo, but certainly geo-politics?

So Jim, perhaps you should stick to your ChatGPT mystical insights and trying to impress new folks to this board with your stories about your achievements in decades of following RS, such as falling asleep or seeing absolutely nothing at all, and calling that "maha sunn", or ONCE having a fleeting hypnagogic image of Charan, and calling that contacting the radiant form. I notice recently some sucker fell for it, so just stick to that dude! If somebody is impressed with your stories and experiences after decades of following RS, then they DESERVE what they get.

Let the adults discuss America's bloody past and present.

All the best.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Manjit, You once, years ago, used to be an approachable , nice guy, until you went off the Reservation and started doping. Do you still have any friends you consider as Mentors, or might be as enlightened as you imagine your self to be?
Hey Ex friend, I do apologise for no longer praising your pages of boring imaginary knowledge about every thing known on earth to only you, but absolutely no one else. But once I am disrespected by some one, for mistakes in my punctuation, or typos, and even being mistaken about information, occasionally , there is absolutely no reason for any young know it all dude like you to disrespect your Elders twice your age, like me, as you consistently have done to me, for really no personal reason. If I was really as stupid, irrational or vindictive and you accuse me of, I could very well barf up a few of our personal emails from years ago, where you were , or at least seemed to be a normal, friendly, Dude, who had read some of my posts or my blog, and was interested in our commonalities, not our differences. And I have NEVER exposed your REAL Name, because I am an honorable man, who never shares information during private discussions asked to be kept confidential, as YOU have done, with many of your ex friends. But not to worry. I would never exposed the real Name of any of my Ex friends like you, that that must be so ashamed of their real Name , that they shudder to think that some one will expose them. Don’t worry, your hidden Name will remain safe with me. In fact, I will try to completely forget who you are, and will work on deleting you from my memory. You no longer have a space on my memory that makes me smile when I think of you, nor brings back any fond memories. BTW, The information I posted was not from ChatGBT, it was from MetaAI, which usually just comes from Bing.
Once I’m through with some one, I’m through. Just keep educating your friends like you grow your Mushrooms. ( Keep them in the dark and feed them manure.)
Happy Trails,
Jim Sutherland

[manjit]

Grow up Jim, this childishness is pathetic. Even more so considering the subject matter.

Stick to trying conning new folks you have a clue what you're talking about.

[manjit]

Hey Jim, perhaps you have a point. Here's my suggestion, post EVERY SINGLE email, from the very 1st one you sent to me unsolicited, in their ENTIRETY.

I withhold my surname from public forums for 2 reasons, 1) being of employable age, the views I share would make it impossible for me to find a new job and 2) being critical of religions in an area densely populated by followers of those religions may endanger my family.

That said, at this point I couldn't care less, so knock yourself out Jim, please do share ALL those emails in their entirety.

[Uncomplicated]

Once again Manjit is right!

Ding, ding, ding!

There is something altogether next-level horrific about what’s happening in Gaza. This isn’t just another war—it’s humankind at its absolute worst and most depraved. The level of suffering taking place there is incomprehensible.

[Jim Sutherland]

For Liberal Trump and MEGA haters, take a listen to why Bobbie Kennedy Jr. and Tulsi Gabbard are both supporting Trump and are in agreement that stopping all foreign wars is the path to making America great again, as it was before the Military Industrial Complex hijacked the Government. I think RFK JR. very well could have won the Presidency against Trump, had the Democrats let him compete as a Democrat Candidate in a legal Democratic Primary, but instead, they silenced Kennedy, by censuring him, and then pushing Biden under the bus and installed a woman who never won a single Primary Vote as their Democratic Candidate. When Kennedy finally knew he could never win as an Independent, he first offered his services to Kamal, who refused to even hear him! He next contacted Trump, and we are where we now are, with Ex Democrat Kennedy and Tulsi BOTH supporting Tump and MEGA. Tulsi is Hindu, whereas Kennedy is Catholic. Both are high profile Americans that are opposed to wars, and are opposed to Neo War Mongers and the present Democrat Administration.
https://youtube.com/live/H4zcJU2EjxY?si=hZ1hzSXK_aw8V-rT

Jim Sutherland

[Appreciative Reader]

“Both? Oh I see, you mean my "alleged spirituality"? (…) It is amusing to me you seem to have inferred I have any interest discussing "spirituality" with you or that you'd be doing me a favour by doing so.”

manjit, why would you think that I imagine I’d be doing you a favor by discussing spirituality with you? Have I ever, either now or in the past, ever suggested such? Surely you see that your saying this now is yet another strawman?

As for not having any interest in discussing spirituality with me: well, why is that, manjit? What has changed? …My only reason for raising these questions here is to further my understanding of these matters. My intentions in discussing spirituality on here have always been perfectly sincere, as they are now. …My point is, you yourself have always fully appreciated that, manjit, and have said as much, many times: and that is why you have gone into great detail, always, to explain what I’ve asked of you about spirituality.

Which, of course, is not to say you are beholden to me, to keep on answering whatever I put to you, obviously! But I submit to you that your rudeness now in announcing your lack of interest in discussing spirituality with me now is not sincere. I submit to you that your strawmanning me about my allegedly imagining that I’m doing you a favor by discussing spirituality with you is no more than a feint, in order to avoid discussing that specific matter without losing face.

As for my reference to your “alleged spirituality”, manjit: that was very specific. I was referring to where you’d spoken about “ontological shift(s) of being”; which I thought was an interesting and possibly a very meaningful thing, that I’d like to know about more clearly. Which is why my repeated requests for clarification; and placed so very conspicuously, multiple times, that it could not possibly have been missed. So that your sidestepping that question, repeatedly, struck me as deliberate; and it did seem that you did not actually know what you’d been talking about after all, that you’d merely thrown out a profound-sounding soundbite that you were unwilling to acknowledge as such. Hence my reference to that specific as your “alleged spirituality”, and to your not doing this in good faith.

And, manjit, I’m taking the trouble to say all of this to you now because, not long back, you’d had the integrity to clearly recognize and acknowledge your strawman and to very gracefully retract it. This time there’s nothing particularly offensive about what you’ve said, so there’s no question of my protesting this on those terms; but I was hoping that, when you see me clearly spell this out, you will, one more time, be able to find within yourself the integrity and the good sense to acknowledge this as well. …And, if you aren’t averse to it, and assuming you actually do fully understand the ontological shift you’d referred to and that you have experienced it yourself, that you would, even now, clearly discuss that particular specific.

If after this last overture of mine you still don’t, then I won’t ask again.

----------

“Dear AR, your response was not on any level a "reasoned" or "nuanced" response, it was an inane and absurd reiteration of the same things you had repeated several times and which I already thoroughly and absolutely dismantled as the absurd and incoherent ramblings of American Exceptionalism that they plainly and clearly are, based on absolutely nothing other than the fantasies planted in your head. You have been unable to provide even a semi coherent or semi substantive reply in any of your comments to me. (…) Overwhelmed by facts, you descended into unsubstantiated, emotive rambling. Just reread your facts and reality averse comments again. (…) So, yes, please, enough of your so called "good faith" arguments. They merely underscore how profoundly irrational you are.”

Haha, manjit, you’re simply calling me names! That’s no different than my now turning around and telling you, “Yah, manjit, you’re stupid, and you’re ugly, and you stink to the high heavens, and that’s because you’re refuse that your mommy picked up from the garbage bin one morning”.

Your simply and baldly telling me my comment was “inane” does not make it so. Your simply and baldly telling me it was “absurd” does not make it so. Given that you’ve not substantially addressed my comment at all, your simply announcing grandly that you’ve “thoroughly and absolutely dismantled” what I’d said, that’s simply silly, and most assuredly does not make it so! Your substance-free description of what I’d said as “incoherent ramblings”, and your calling me irrational, that’s rude, certainly; but don’t you see that your calling me empty names like this, does not speak to what I’d said, and most assuredly does not speak to my person, but actually speaks to you yourself?

manjit, my own last comment to you was perfectly rational and reasonable and reasoned. …Now when I say that, I don’t mean to turn adjudicator myself and announce myself the winner! What I’m saying is that my premises were very clearly laid out; my reasoning from those premises was very clearly delineated; and my conclusions presented clearly on those terms. Absolutely, it was, in that sense, and without a shadow of doubt, perfectly reasoned. …Now if you find any of what I’d said amiss, then you could examine and clearly deconstruct my premises, that I’ve so very clearly laid out; and you could examine and clearly deconstruct my argument/s following from those premises, which again I’ve very clearly put out there; and thereby, by all means, disagree with the conclusions I’ve arrived at --- and, indeed, “dismantle” them if you’re able to. …But instead, you engage in this juvenile name-calling, simply and baldly calling what I’d said “absurd” and “incoherent” etc, and simply and baldly calling me “irrational” --- as if your simply announcing it baldly like that actually makes it so. That’s simply silly.

manjit, I’ve not once called you names, nor denigrated your views on those terms. What I’ve done is clearly laid out my own arguments, clearly discussed and reasoned out my own reasons for thinking what I do. The one time I did use a descriptor about what you’d said was when I’d referred to the incoherence inherent in withdrawing support from Harris specifically on account of one’s outrage over Israel; but then I *very clearly* laid out my reasons why that is, and also, in response to you, I explained why I think it is imperative for Americans to support Harris, and further, as an aside as it were, why that might apply to non-Americans as well.

And your response to all of that was, first, a substance-free would-be witticism about that incidental aside of mine; followed now by what is essentially you thumbing your nose at me and telling me, “Yah, your stupid and your ugly!” …Do you wonder, then, that I should conclude that you’re not doing any of this in good faith?

I’d expected more from you, manjit.

And I’m taking the trouble to say all of this to you now, one last time, because I was hoping that, as before, you’ll be able to find within yourself the integrity and the strength to recognize and to acknowledge this.

As with the spirituality thing, likewise with this politics thing as well: If after this last overture of mine you still don’t, then I won’t ask again.

----------

Assuming you do find within yourself the integrity and the strength to recognize and to acknowledge both of the above; and assuming that on those terms you do look to revisiting those subjects with me: then, while I’m game to discussing both matters if you’d like that, but I do suggest that, given how wide political differences can be, we take the spirituality thing first. Assuming you spoke of it from your own clear understanding, basis your own personal experience: then maybe you could discuss that first; and the politics only after that or indeed not at all.

Always assuming you do, still, want to do this. If not, then like I said I won’t ask again.

[manjit]

Uncomplicated - thank you for voicing your thoughts 💓

For everyone else, here's the real news from Gaza that your genocidal overlords and media, who cannot afford any more aid for it's own citizens affected by the hurricane but can throw billions hand over fist at foreign nations to kill babies. Must watch for anyone with even a modicum of interest in truth or humanity, unless you already know what's going on in which case there's no need to watch and you're already absolutely disgusted by barbaric Israel and western politicians and media:

https://youtu.be/kPE6vbKix6A?si=jiQEGrcsNQUZS5lv

[manjit]

German civilians claimed they didn't know what was going on in the concentration camps.

History will not allow that excuse to western civilisation this time around, the evidence was placed in front of everyone's eyes, technology and social media ensures it, and it must be a conscious decision to ignore or even cheerlead the inhumanity and it's architects....