A claim that Gurinder Singh "demolished" the Western RSSB sangats

As I frequently observe on this blog, the reason I refer so frequently to Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) is that for thirty-five years I was an active member of this India-based religious organization headed up by a guru who is considered to be God in Human Form.

If I'd spent that amount of time as a Catholic, then deconverted from that faith, rather than RSSB, now I'd be talking about the downsides of the Catholic Church based on my experience with that religion.

I also point out fairly frequently that for most of the thirty-five years I belonged to RSSB, I was happy with the organization. It met some needs of mine. I felt good about the volunteer work I did for RSSB. I got to know many fine people. 

That helps explain why, when I read the comment below that was left by someone named Chiro today on a recent post, I was bothered by the description of how the current RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, reportedly markedly changed how the RSSB organization is managed in Western countries.

I'm sharing the comment in this post in part because I'm curious if other people knowledgeable about RSSB agree with Chiro's statements about how Dhillon altered the RSSB groups ("sangats") in Western countries in a manner that the previous guru, Charan Singh Grewal, wouldn't have approved of.

I still have a lot of fondness for Charan Singh, who initiated me in 1971 through a Western representative, Roland deVries, who, like me at the time, lived in California. Back then I recall that most of the people who came to local RSSB meetings ("satsangs") weren't Indian. That certainly was the case when I moved to Salem, Oregon in 1977, where I still live.

There were a few Indians in our sangat, but mostly it was made up of non-Indians. As noted by Chiro in the comment below, prior to Gurinder Singh becoming guru in 1990 after Charan Singh died, Charan Singh (referred to as Maharaji in the comment) appointed "native people" to lead the RSSB organization in Western countries.

(I put quotation marks around native people, because in the United States no one is native except for descendents of the Native Americans who lived here prior to Columbus making his voyage to America in 1492.) 

During Charan Singh's time as RSSB guru, there was an easy grace to the organization. Charan was honest, kind, and warm. There was just the faintest hint of scandal relating to Charan Singh, a single rumor that once he asked a disciple visiting India to smuggle in some watches duty free, if I remember the story correctly.

Gurinder Singh, on the other hand, has been the only truly scandalous RSSB guru. Gurinder has had a criminal complaint filed against him by a family member who accused him of financial fraud totaling hundreds of millions of dollars. Gurinder has been accused of making death threats. Gurinder supposedly has markedly updated the RSSB teachings to v. 2.0 or even v. 3.0 after the teachings were basically unchanged for about a hundred years.

So I find it easy to believe that Gurinder Singh also has made large changes to how the overseas RSSB sangats are managed. Gurinder reminds me of Donald Trump in some regards. Both men have strong authoritarian tendencies and like to surround themselves with people who don't question their decisions. Often members of this inner circle are family members. 

Anyway, here's the comment from Chiro. Leave your own comment on this post if you have an opinion about what is said below. It has a ring of truth to me, but I'm open to additional information. 

@um "And lo and behold ..what happened?? .... in Europe the growth of the sangat almost came to a still stand and most people that frequent the gatherings are immigrated Indians."

Why? because of Gurinder's vicious, brutal and despotic attack on the Western sangats after his appointment. Maharaji respected the right of countries to their native people, He often told the story of the Indian child stolen for adoption abroad and how when it found it was Indian deserted even his wife and children to return to India.

Maharaji had an English representative in England, a German in Germany and so one. Gurinder the Shaitan demolished every single Western sangat and handed it over to Indian immigrant control, if possible by his own family members or perhaps a Western crony of his here and there.

RSSB is now an Indian organisation in which Western disciples, if they are foolish enough to subscribe to it, are second class citizens in RSSB. Look at the endless stream of mainly junk videos emanating from RSSB commentators and the official videos of Gurinder himself, for example Modi's electioneering visit (which MCS would have been totally against!). Have you ever seen a Western face in any of them?

In my country every single Western disciple left RSSB over Gurinder's appalling behaviour, his seeming allergy to giving satsang, his rich list lifestyle in the former mansions of the Duke of Bedford in England, holidays on beaches full of semi-naked women and the rivers of Bani drying up from the Dera.

It is shocking to hear he sits on the stage while a preacher does his job for him. You call yourself a Guru when you can't even give Satsang? I could go on. In the immortal words of James Bean on RSSB "Into the mouth of Kal!"

Comments

[La Madrugada]

A few years ago I travelled to Paris to see GSD on his visit to France
Everywhere ·bossy· Indian sevadars, no native people.
On my question to a member of the board why there were almost no native sevadars the answer was "without the money of the Indian satsangis the sangat would not survive".

[Raw Vegan]

I agree with Chiro, there is nothing left of the Western sangat in the UK. The only Westerners left are a handful of old timers from the 70's. Even in Spain, at the Alhaurin de La Torre satsang centre near Torremolinos, there was just a small corner for the Westerners with headphones supplied and you needed a ticket and special pass to get a pair.
When Babaji visited Spain to give satsang, overseas sangats were invited, Torremolinos was flooded with Indians, not Westerners, you could count the Westerners. Same at Haynes.
I was shocked when I last attended the main central London satsang in UK to see there were only around twelve Westerners at the satsang, nothing like the numbers in the old days.
No young Westerners are coming to RSSB now, the young Westerners have all flocked to Amma Amritananda in their thousands. She walks the talk.
And yes, Indian satsangis think they are spiriitually superior to Westerners, if you can't speak Punjabi, you are ostracised even in your own country! They stick to their own and do not integrate. Same in outside secular society.
Please can someone give more details of Babaji's hedonistic lifestyle for the record. These things need to be made public as they are contrary to everything Babaji preaches in Q&A sessions.

[um]

I am not going to write a detailed report of the development and history of the Dutch Sangat but I do want to point out here that the changes started long before 1990.

It all started as a friction between satsagi's.

The same kind of frictions that are reported in the history of Christianity ... a fight about power, who is entitled to take decisions over what ... and ...doctrinal differences that had, IMHO its roots in the social cultural background of the people and most of all in their kind of Christianity by birth.

So one can differentiate between Calvinist, RK,. Jewish etc satsangi's. Between those that were more or less orthodox in their believes and naturally the social class they belonged to.

Allready in the time of the late MCS the frictions were such that he had to come himself to Europe to make an end to it. But what was going on was like an underground peat burn and the successor had to come up with an solution. He did several times but unfortunately that turned out to be even more oil on the fire.

The transformation that took place can be compared with what is shown in the movie "the last emperor" where the old [feudal] charismatic, colorful mandarins are replaced by apparatchiks in green uniforms.

Personally I think that every time has its own rulers, elite and spirit of the time and these changes are not in the hand of any one person, not even guru's

In the time of the late MCS all involved and everything related had the stamp of what i love to use ..charismatic

I do not think that the late MCS created it, he just fitted in, he was the right man in the right time and for that same reason I do not believe that his succesor is the instigator of what has gone wrong. It is my understanding that he did his utmost best to find an solution to end the frictions in the organisation.

I the beinning there was a guru / representative, helped by people to organize what little there had to be organized

Then the community started to grow and the help became more and more structured etc

Then the differences of opinion started to come to the surface, Differences about who is responsible for what.

Over time there was a flip ..Were sevadars in the beginning people doing this or that work, later it became professionals that were doing seva, This way "the world" was brought in by means of an Troyan horse.

It is the same old story and it happens to all religions that start out as a sprinkling new spiritual movement ...and .. it is caused by the people themselves. ... THEY are the ones that want things THEIR way ...In the beginning when the founders and the people of the first hour are still around, they can shield of this barrage but as the community grows it becomes an power of its own . Just have an look at the development of the Christian churches .. if the leaders etc do not give in to the wishes of the time and the people they have to close their doors as is going on here in this country.

People get to much distracted by these financial affairs .to see what is realy going on and how THEY are involved. ... hahaha

PS
Have some coffee, sit down and listen to a couple of Q&A sessions and analyze the kind of questions that are asked.
Without exception these are all questions to change the teachings according THEIR liking

[Chiro]

@um
What you describe may have been the case in Holland but not in the UK where the sangat was peaceful, orderley and laid back. In Maharaji's time the Indian sangat in England maintained their own Punjabi satsangs while all the rest; the British, non married Indians, more integrated Indians, Africans, Caribbeans and people from other nations like Iran attended the English language satsang. That both protected the Indian culture especially when it came to arranging marriages and ensured Indians understood their satsangs and English speakers theirs. All that came to a savage conclusion on the arrival of Gurinder. The firing of Maharaji's long standing English representative who had served three masters, the appointment of one of his family in her place. The two halves of the sangat then thrown together like cats in a bag with the non-Indians largely fleeing for the hills as the gentle Sewadar approach was replaced by a sort of police state surveillance, especially in regard to the possession of phones and recording devices, and an Indian invasion and takeover of positions. It was a power grab.

[Raw Vegan]

Totally agree with Chiro.
No young Westerners are coming to Sant Mat anymore, they are flocking in their thousands to Amma Amritananda because she walks the talk.
There are hardly any Western satsangis left in UK. I was shocked that at the main centre in Central London, only a dozen or so Western satsangis attended. Not like the old days at St. James'.
Haynes in UK is flooded with thousands of Indians, you hardly see a white face just a few old timers from the 70's.
The Indians think they are spiriitually superior to the Westerners and unless you can speak Punjabi, you are ostracised.
The Indian sevadars are on power trips, they are arrogant, rude. and lack basic good manners. Embarrassingly lacking in social skills. Not all of them of course, but it's a different culture. Materialistic success seems to be their main aim in life which added to the dire poverty in India becomes obscene. The rows of parked Mercedes at Haynes was never seen in the past. It's all an ego trip. Where did the simple living vanish to?
The satsangs outside of London are dismally boring and one is expected to sit through an entire satsang in Punjabi before the English one starts with about six Westerners in attendance. Boring. Someone reading straight from a Sant Mat book in a dreary monotone is not my idea of satsang. Having listened to the best of Mrs Wood, Sam Busa and Lionel Metz you know the difference. It was so boring I stopped going years ago.
Then Alhaurin de La Torre near Torremolinos in Spain, thousands of Indians flood Torremolinos with just a few Westerners. One small corner of the sangat hall is allocated to Westerners who need headphones and which you require a token for, only available at your local satsang in UK. New rule, you have to attend your local Indian satsang centre even if you find the atmosphere to be non conducive. So many rules and regulations all contrary to what Maharaj Charan Singh taught.
No Westerners left here in UK. That would not be a problem but Punjabi satsangis do not integrate, they are a closed shop, same in secular life.

[um]

@ Chiro and Raw Vegan

I am not blind nor stupid ... I have witnessed everything both of you describe in great detail and I had also more than, what i consider a fair deal, of these unpleasant changes, both here as in the UK.

I have seen the world change and how these changes also affected Sant Mat as an organisation

It seems that the word is in a kind of molting process, discarding old skin, feathers or whatever. Whatever we had had its roots in the middle ages and over time change but just a little at the time. The changes these days are tangentially, abrupt.

Rssb as organisation is part of the world and as such it cannot free itself from the changes in the weather, the floods, the hurricanes etc you name it. Not even a guru is able to withstand these changes..

As I wrote before .. The cinema is in panic, because somebody jelled "fire" or there is some fire ..years ago I decided to stay away and find protection against the wall in order not to be trampled by the masses.

I think it has to be that way ... the old order is crumbling down and all sorts of people, powers, interests, try to profit from the situation, keep it as it was or want to change it their way ..that ... is not going to happen, none of them will succeed.

Thousands upon thousands of unknown individuals, living their life according what they think is correct, in all aspects of human live. What is near and dear to them are the stone that they carry over the Rubicon and from these building blocks a new society and culture will be build. Nobody knows how that society will look like and it is certainly not build by those that have their roots in the old order. ..if anybody thinks that those that fight unasked for the rights of others, animals or not he is wrong, nor those that feel that they are responsible for the climate etc.

Yes I do know how it pains as I have been closely assocated with the people you named.

[um]

And Chira and Raw Vegan

Not only the guru has changed, his staff, the organisations and the sevadars but ...ALSO ... the satsangis ... and .. not only ...THEY ... but the whole interest in spirituality has changed.

That there are no new western people flocking towards sant mat, is not to be attributed to the changes in the sangat etc but to them... there is at the moment ..NO MARKET for sant mat

Nobody is cased away ... the days that one could proudly profiling oneself in society, among friends and family are gone and turned upside down. .. people will look at you if there is something wrong with you when you bring the topic up/

[Aam]

True leaders are the calm in the storm! They calmly navigate their followers thru turbulances of society or the world.

[um]

@ Aam

hahaha ... if you have somebody in mind let us know ... hahahaha

[RS]

I think part of the reason why westerners are leaving and no new ones are coming is because of the enforcing of indian cultural-accretions upon a meditation technique and philosophy which Sawan, Jagat and especially Charan emphasised was timeless and beyond all that.
Charan in particular spent a lot of time, research and effort in demonstrating the underlying similarity of Sant Mat philosophy with all genuinely spiritual traditions ESPECIALLY the teachings of Jesus the Nazorean. He published two books of his own discourses and Qs&As on the New Testament Gospels of John and Matthew. Plus he published Stone’s ‘Mystic Bible’ and J. Leeming’s misleadingly named ‘Yoga and the Bible’. I.e. you don’t have to change religion, adopt new traditions, etc. Just become a better Christian, whatever. That was a very appealing and attractive presentation to westerners from a Christian background of something said to be a timeless teaching lying at the base of all religions.
. . . . . . . .
Gurinder by contrast appears to have not even read the New Testament PLUS he repeatedly misquoted it in his discourses in his early years of ministry.
. . . . . . . .
Another possible reason why Westerners are no longer attracted is perhaps the embarrassing over-emphasis on the ‘surat shabd yoga’ technique being a ‘science’.
What educated westerner can feel comfortable with that misnomer?
I suspect that a ‘science’ of something as nebulous as a ‘soul’ will not be very attractive to increasingly secular, intelligent, well-educated, western people. In the 60s to 90s new initiates were people who had still had Christianity forced upon them as children. So to hear a mystical interpretation of all that was a revelation. That kind of enforced Christian upbringing was no longer the case in schools during the 70s onwards.
Before Gurinder took over that ‘science’ angle was not pushed as the movement’s main name; it was just the title of one book and the S.African’s quarterly magazine. So it could be ignored as a minor aberration. But Gurinder quickly made it the movement’s main title in the West, …with large lettering.
Plus he laughingly renamed the satsang centres as ‘Science of the soul STUDY CENTRES’. 🤦‍♂️🙄
No-one with any background in genuine scientific education, pursuits or interests could feel comfortable with that misrepresentation. Nor, if they still felt a loyalty to the philosophy and practice, could they be comfortable recommending something with such embarrassingly inappropriate nomenclature to their friends, colleagues, family, etc.
. . . . . .
P.S.
One correction to Brian’s intro: there has NEVER been any evidence presented that Charan “asked a disciple visiting India to smuggle in some watches duty free”. Brian has not remembered “the story correctly”. The undisputed facts were that Charan and his extended family used to leave extra shopping that they couldn’t carry back with them in their suitcases at the house of Charan’s boyhood friend Mohinder Ahuja. It was left there with the understanding that Mohinder and his personal friends and family would take some of it with them when they visited the Dera. One over-zealous ‘friend’ Bob Fields decided he would take a fair few of the inexpensive European-made watches himself in the belief he was thereby doing ‘satguru sewa’ and earning merit. We don’t even know if the watches which had been bought to give as gifts, were tge purchases of Charan or his family members. It was by Mr. Fields’ own admission that ONLY he decided to take them all himself and to not pack them but wear all the watches on his arms in a belief that he was smuggling them. We will never know now whether Mohinda knew that was Mr. Fields’ plan or whether he understood Mr. Fields’ would be sharing them with travelling companions.
Bottom line: no part of the story from Bob Field’s claimed Charan asked him to smuggle watches through Indian customs.

[um]

@ RS

Allright .. there are people leaving and nobody is coming and that is due to the way Rssb presents its teachings and is unable to get around the regional appearance.

That said tell us were these people have gone, tho whom and what.

The facts are that if I want to read a book on spirituality, the doors of the many so called esoteric shops are closed and the original interest is turned into a spiritual-spa and welbeing community

It is my understanding that the interest in religous affairs and spirituality have gone

[um]

@ RS

Spirituality is a way of life.

Do you think that the TICTOC world wants to sit for any amount of time and create the atmosphere and circumstance needed to make any practice fruitful.

Zen today means ... Wow, you are really zen today

[um]

@ RS

People should show Rssb etc more respect and gratitude as they create ample reasons for them to blame that organisation for their own shortcomings, lack of effort, interest etc et..

It is not my fault , i am forced to stop to meditate or I wanted to start meditatiing but now |I have come to know about these misbehavior of RSSB etc etc , i can not

My goodness ... iu have to make myself a good coffee.

[Brian Hines]

Thanks for all the interesting comments. Looks like what Chiro said is true. Gurinder Singh has created an atmosphere unfriendly to Western disciples, who are much fewer now than in the Charan Singh days. RS, you made some great observations about how Charan Singh used the Bible to show that Sant Mat was universal, not Indian. Whether or not this is objectively true, it was a unifying message that certainly was more appealing than Gurinder's "my way or the highway" approach of running roughshod over RSSB tradition.

[um]

@ Brian

In our country we have a new [populist] right wing government that spreads the messages that all problems we have are born from immigration.

Gurinders etc is used in the same way

hahahaha

[RS]

Hi Brian,
you wrote that when Charan “…used the Bible to show that Sant Mat was universal, not Indian. …it was a unifying message that certainly was more appealing than Gurinder's "my way or the highway" approach…”

I myself am not sure it is accurate to say Gurinder has a “my way or the highway approach.

On the contrary, my understanding is he has gone much too far the other way, even to the point of distorting the teachings of his predecessors by often saying “all paths lead to God”.
He even used to add in the same sentence: “it would be arrogant to say only Sant Mat has the way to God”.

I regard that as a distortion of his predecessor’s teachings, as that IS a cardinal axiom of the RSSB Masters’ philosophy that NOT all religions lead to God.
Sar Bachan poetry explicitly states that most religions are what is called Kal-mat (= religions of Brahm/Kal/the demiurge).
So if that is an arrogant position, then all Gurinder’s predecessors were guilty of that, as they DID teach that there IS only one way to God. Viz. they all taught there is only one divine high-way, and it is ONLY by listening to and merging into the divine current of life they called Shabd.
Plus they taught another prerequisite: that this realisation was ONLY possible after initiation from a Satlok-realised adept.
So not only did they teach not all religions lead to God-realisation, but they laid down two conditions they claimed were universal and eternal. Conditions which they said were required for anyone to ever be able to realise union with the SUPREME SOUL/param atma/God. That being because it is said to be impossible to pierce the vast emptiness after universal mind has been transcended, where space and time has ceased to exist. I.e. without the assistance of one who has themself ‘crossed’ it (i.e. a guru who has themself pierced the great void/maha sunn) no soul can proceed/evolve/elevate/pierce further.
. . . . . . . .
Regarding the appeal of Sant Mat in bygone times:
that idea of being introduced to a ‘living’ adept of a secret but ancient spiritual methodology also had an appeal to people who’d lived through the revelations and new-age mysticism of Blavatsky, Max Mueller, Rudolf Steiner, etc.
PLUS the availability in the West suddenly of people like Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Yogananda, Meher Baba, Ramana opened up spiritual/mystical paths to many, many people in the West at that time. That explains the appeal to Sant Mat that attracted the likes of Julian Johnson, Colonel Sanders, Sir Colin Garbett, Elizabeth Bruce, etc.,).
. . . . . . . .
That same appeal to being part of a sacred fraternity with a ‘living’ guide also appealed to the next generation: those whose minds were being altered by hallucinogenics and the sixties counter-culture. Thus the boom of Indian gurus in the West like Krishnamurti, Mahesh Yogi, Sivananda, Muktananda, Prabhupad, Yogi Bhajan, Rajneesh, Chogyam Trungpa, etc.
. . . . . . . .
By the 90s when Gurinder took over, that was no longer such an appealing novelty, PLUS had been tarnished by the excesses and immoral misbehaviour of the likes of Rajneesh, Sai Baba of Puttarpathi, etc.
I think all that partly explains the diminishing interest, as Um correctly pointed out.
Then with the acquisition of properties as foreign centres, the idea of keeping the western and Indian sangats separate was no longer sustainable. I suspect there would have been problems integrating, whoever was the guru.
. . . . . . . .
Summary:
Diminishing western interest can’t fairly be all be put down to just Gurinder’s mismanagement.

[um]

@ RS

Again you put the blame on the misbehavior of the different lineages as being the source of the diminishing interest .... and I guarantee you that without it, it would also have happened because nobody these days is interested in the divine

There is no need to give up ones believe in God etc because of the misbehavior and crimes of popes, bishops and priests .. using the crimes etc of others is just an lame excuse

Why should one give up the believe in democracy because this or that official is a criminal?
etc

[Kranvir]

By the clown Gurinder singh dhillon being there, ironically exposes the truth behind what rssb really is from the onset - one big fat lie. Charan himself said he wasn't enlightened, and you can see he had no insight as he left the clueless baba, gurinder singh dhillon in charge. Charan chose to give it to his nephew and so keep rssb, and all the money and assets in the family. Charan also never wanted to be guru, and ran away, so did show some honesty about the true nature of the path. The foundations of rssb, and its ever changing teachings indicate the path had a very shakey foundation from the very start. All these fake gurus exploited people's suffering, and through this created a false attachment and false promises in the afterlife - like you will be free in 4 lifetimes (what utter nonsense ). Truth has no path, truth is simple, live your life and have fun.

[sant64]

Charan Singh organized multiple satsangis to skirt India's taxes and smuggle everything from luxury items for his family to breakfast cereal. (Even stridently ex-RSSB-satsangis can't bear to criticize Charan while they go Cenk-level bonkers over their Gurinder conspiracy theories...I wish Freud were still around to work this out).

The flat, incontrovertible truth that drives them nuts: Gurinder Singh has never been found guilty of any crime. The author of this blog knows that the person who filed a criminal report against Gurinder was none other than Malvinder Singh -- who was found guilty of gross financial crimes, sent to prison, and whose suspect character is detailed in the book Bottle of Lies by Katherine Eban.

Anyhoo, the charges made by poster are ludicrous, something that never stopped the blog's author from posting them, as he did with the nut who claimed Gurinder had his wife killed.
This time the charges are transparently foolish (and not a little racist) and both parties should know better.

For one thing, anyone who's been around RSSB in the States knows that the satsangis demographic has changed radically. There are tons more people of Indian ethnicity in U.S. satsangs than there were 40 years ago. This change isn't particular to RSSB either, as they same thing has happened to Hindu centers like ISKCON. Gone are all the hippies of the Woodstock era, as this generation has little interest in religion. The great influx of people from India has filled the void, and thus there's no dark scheme of placing Indians in places of authority that rightfully belong to white people.

For another thing, look at the family names of the recent U.S. RRSB representatives: Muller, Savarese, Vogel, Torre. Where are the Dhillons?

Up your game and stop posting foolishness.

[N/a]

Lol, the amount of misinformation, slander and lies in this blog is staggering. Talks about race, politics, money, scamming. I implore you to ask yourself whether this is what Sant Mat is even about.
Is this the message that Babaji has been teaching?
Hell no. He stands for one message only, which is to meditate on the Shabad within. Every comment here is missing this meta point, and instead focused on childish stupidity like race representation in the western sangat.

Sorry if y’all find difficulty in meditating, but slandering a man who is eons ahead of you in humanity and meditation capability is just pathetic.

[umami]

Religion teaches that we're guilty until proven innocent. Original sin, karma, etc.
Therein lies the rub.

[Sunil]

It is often said that the character of a Guru is mirrored in their disciples—if you want to truly understand the Guru, look closely at the followers. The same qualities can be seen in Gurinder: he's known for being rigid, autocratic, and unyielding. Therefore, it's unfair to place all the blame on the followers. They are simply embodying the traits they’ve observed and absorbed from their Guru. What they reflect is what they've been taught, directly or indirectly.

[Aam]

RSSB has changed! It has become a shell organization devoid of spirituality. Maybe it was planned or it just evolved as religions do.
In the mid to late 80s one could sense some friction discord in the spiritual people and the management. Sangat would speak of the next guru would come with a sword to deal with pushy management.
However, with GOD'S tenure, management grew by leaps and bonds. Spirituality was left behind. Hence, RSSB now is just a shell. And all the centers across the globe, are being built and polished daily. For what?
What is the purpose of RSSB? If not spirituality? This is a question people have been raising here. IMO it is a valid question. And I hope it will be one of the first questions JSG will address.

[um]

@ Aam

Forget it ... seen from the side of the seeker, they are on their own. They have to make their own decisions as there and to whom they want to invest mentally. etc.

Even if any guru would come up with an explanation .. it is up to a seeker whether he will or can believe and accept the answer.

Nobody in the world, not even gurus, can give meaning and value, to what is not theirs .. that would be and violation of the law of karma.

Anybody that feels that there is no spirituality to be found some place have to make up their mind. .. believen there id none is a believe too.

[Kranvir]

Keep it in the family gurinder singh dhillon- for some reason god by a contract only exists in the dhillon blood line. Jasdeep is the nephew of dhillon the villain. Jasdeep, was picked, as gurinder desperate to retire, and he had no choice. Since when is a phd or business strategy the necassay skills for enlightenment, lol. Be careful Jasdeep, uncle gurinder has already locked up 2 nephews for the crimes that gurinder himself committed. Money buys freedom, and being a self proclaimed false god, by contract, gives the perception of power. People give you the benefit of doubt, or turn a blind eye, like a mafia cartel boss - no one dare say anything. If gurinder was innocent, why not just attend his court hearings and prove it. Instead you go and murder your wife who's name you put the siphoned money . Your days are numbered gurinder, karma is being served faster than you think. Jasdeep, I guess by now gurinder, who is satan's child, has told you the truth of who he worships (lucifer/ kal) and you may want to take charans advice and run away as fast as you can.

[Martin L.]

We really need to stop judging other people.

[Aam]

Thank you Um. I am still confused.
@um
"Nobody in the world, not even gurus, can give meaning and value, to what is not theirs .. that would be and violation of the law of karma."

Kabir: "o Kabir there is huge difference between a philosopher's stone and a guru. One transformation iron to stone. The other makes his disciples as himself."

So, if GSD can make JSG or anyone else a satguru as himself, he is beyond the law,of karma. And can give meaning and value to anyone.
This is my confusion. If he can not, then RSSB us a shell of santmat.

[sss]

We are all beyond the law of karma if we choose God’s will.

[S]

I had a dream that this insane being set fire to all the main buildings of the western Sangat. Right after he did that I asked him why and he said, because I’m insane. I asked him again and he died. So, I went to GSD and told him exactly what happened and told GSD that it had all been part of a prophecy. At that point he fainted but didn’t fall down. Then I looked in the mirror and my entire (very unusual looking form) was various shades of bright blue. The sangat started rebuilding immediately.

It was a ridiculously elaborate dream—something like the book of Revelations. I’ve only included here the highest level summary of what happened.

[Sunil]

There are rumors circulating that GSD is seriously ill and doesn’t have much time left. Is there any truth to this?

[Donson]

It’s been quite a while since I last visited the Haynes Centre in the UK. Is it now required to submit questions in advance before speaking to GSD? I remember there used to be some tough and uncomfortable questions posed to him, such as: “What contributions have you made to society?”, “How do you justify your position as a Guru?”, “Where does your income come from?”, and “What sacrifices have you made compared to the Sikh Gurus and saints who faced great hardships in their time?”

[Kranvir]

A few more questions to ask the clueless babas of beas - both of them
1. Why are we rold to repeat the names of satan - jot nirunjan ( the light of the devil) as mantra
2. Why do the brainwashed sangat accept that they should be free in 4 lifetimes- how do we know how much we got left? This is utter nonsense
3. Why is our mind whipped when we are born ?
4. Why do sangat say it's our karma when bad things happen , but thanks the fake ass beas babas , when good things happen - utter bullshite
5. Give me 1 reason you are god reincarnated?
6. If money is the root of evil - why are u a billionaire?
7. Why are your favorite inner circle sevadars , criminals , or influential, or Bollywood stars ?
8. If your not a crook, why don't you just attend the court cases you been summoned to prove your innocence instead of dodging them
9. Why don't you give satsang anymore ? Is it because you got caught lying, hypocrite
10. Why does God reincarnate down one family blood line ? Isn't god in everyone?
11, why are the qualifications for a rssb guru a phd from cambridge university and business strategy works experience, lol

[S]

He looks fine in videos. Probably just needs a few years to get affairs in order. But who knows. It’s all speculation at best.

All of us could die at any point in time.

[Ithoughtwehadmovedbeyondthisalready]

I have always felt that GSD looks down on westerners. I don’t know if it’s a race thing or just a cultural thing. It’s like he doesn’t really respect white people. Not that all westerners are white, of course, but it seems like he just automatically assumes white people were born with more than they deserve.

Maybe I’m wrong. Who knows and who cares. It really shouldn’t matter what race you are because we’ve probably all been black, white, Asian in one life or another.

And before we were human we were all the same. So, why should it matter at all???

[Ithought]

I guess I might have been the perfect satsangi if I had been born Indian and especially if I had been born into a Brahmin family.

But I’m just a lowly westerner…

[I]

And a white American is the lowest of the low 😅

[um]

@ I thought etc

No comment on the correctness of your observation of GSD ..that is how he can be seen .. but .. next comes the meaning and value one attributes to that observation..

Maybe his attitude can be explained by the differences between people in the west and in the east as how they deal with a teaching the which of he presents.

It is my understanding that many practices the west has adopted from the east are handled in the west in ways that people in the east may raise their eyebrows. ..not only spiuritual practices but also those related to the body, like acupuncturist, martial arts.

Often importance is attributed to things that are originally just side issues and stressing formal copy of behavior without having any clue what is behind that behaviour.

If I had understood what Bhakti Yoga is all about, in the past and what THEY understand a relation to be between guru and disciple, irrespective of what field is at stake, I might have passed that cup to drink by somebody else.

We have lost that understanding probably all ready in the middle ages when there were still guilds .. the rests of it might be found in small niches like classical music where a musician is the mentor of a small group of students and he being the ..maestro.

That relation has nothing to do with worshiping but is based, if correct, on the mutual understanding and love for music and the presence of talent and dedication.

It might look strange to you but have a look at his body language when he is giving Darshan ..sitting stiil can be done in many ways ... hahaha ...have a look at him and compare it for example with the wys his uncle id ..just look .. it will tell you things about the man..

[um]

@ I thought

On making my wel deserved coffee a rather strange reaction arose in my mind.

In the ten commandments it says:
Do not kill ... it doesn't differentiate between the good and the bad
It goes on to state that:
Honor your parents ... it doesn't say only those that "deserve"to be honored by you

This attitude can be transferred to all human relations.

To love those that are near and dear to you and act as you want them to behave, parents, partner, children, friends but also guru's etc ... that is easy and most people do that and are pleased with it.

One of nephews, has always been working in first class restaurants and hotels and well skilled and who loves his work. One day he complained about the behavior of his wealthy clients and how that could be unbearable some times and how it was possible that other colleagues would not react annoyed. I told him that the quintessence of working in that branch is the ability to make all have a comfortable diner etc

So ...to walk around and tell the world how much one loves a guru etc etc .. the like of the late MCS is easy ..so easy that I often said .. how would you be able not to like such a man... his charisma was huge.

But he forewarned his disciple that the one coming after him would be of different character ... hahahaha.

So .. maybe it was all meant to be a lesson to be learned in what love and devotion is all about ...just an coffee-thought ... hahaha.

And yes I myself could not handle that change. as I could not related to the changes, in attitude, organisation etc et as I had done before.

[I]

@um

Hmm… 🤔 I can’t tell whose side you’re on. Regardless, I do wholeheartedly believe that Brahmin Indians are the most highly valued in GSD’s eyes. He’s made that clear.

But I have enough self respect not to let it bother me too much.

Status and spirituality don’t mix well at all.

Perhaps this new “Hazur Jasdeep” will have a more contemporary view on those things.

[um]

@ I

For me it is not a question of taking sides, probably due to how I was raised.

Especially our dad made it clear, without to much words .. hahaha , that whatever he had, be it material, mental and spiritual [ not a word I ever heard himn using it ... hahaha] ... was HIS .....and ......HE ....was free to use it, give it away etc according to his own description .. and ..nobody else.

And that is what he did ...

[um]

@ !
description = descretion

P.S.
I guess that in your mind not all are equal .. and ...you too have your own "brahmins" too.

[Donson]

No one replied?

Please could someone explain what is the process of asking question to GSD during his satsang at Haynes, UK? ..thanks

[um]

I think it would be easier to ask Keir Starmer a question than GSD

[um]

@ Brian

Please see to it that people do not post here using the name, pen-name of others.

[I]

@fake um

You’re wrong, I’ve never discriminated based on anything superficial. I like who I like based on personality. I love everyone based on the fact that they have a soul.

I’ve never been a slave to status or social standing. However, sadly, the older I get the more glaringly obvious it is that far more people are racist that I ever believed before. Or maybe the world is just getting more divided that way.

[um]

@ !

I am puzzled .. who do you address here ...@fake um????

[I um]

@ !

I am puzzled .. who do you address here ...@fake um????

Posted by: um | September 26, 2024 at 12:28 PM

I’m addressing “you”. Read the original um’s post—he made a comment about you using his pen name.

Anyway, I am not “!” either. And sure, due to a misspelling it appears I have demons. A typo dammed me. Isn’t that just the way it goes. 😅

[Gina]

Maybe the western sangat needed to be “demolished” for purposes that even GSD didn’t understand.

[um]

@ Gina

From the very beginning there has been an tendency in the sangat to mold the teachings in THEIR way.

It is the same tendency that can be found in the developments in the RC church ever since 1968. In order to keep the church alive, more and more adjustments to the very core of Christianity are made. In some European countries even THAT was not enough and was the clergy not able to keep churches open, have enough priests for the ceremonies , where monasteries closed one after the other.

What remains is what I would call "wellness relogion" or "lifelong-good-spirituality"

So IMO what happened to the sangats in Europe etc cannot be seen apart grom a general change in attributing value and meaning to religion and spirituality.

That said RSSB reacted in a different way to that spirit of the time change. than the RC church did. Rssb is not prepared to change the core teachings in order to PLEASE the seekers, students, disciple or however one wants to call those that are interested..

People, generaly spoken, wanted to RECREATE what they had heard about the "lofty" times between 1965 and 1990 ..as people try to do with all other things that are labeled as pleasant...be it cakes, holidays or other events.

It is the same mechanism that one sees when a shop opens, flourishes and soon others open the same shop to take their part

Recreation of pleasurable events from the past.

So started the spread of the interest for Asian, culture ...Do like me, it will make you happy .. in the seventies.

It is all psychological and sociological .. nothing special at all.

[I um]

I am puzzled .. who do you address here ...@fake um????

Posted by: um | September 26, 2024 at 12:28 PM

I’m addressing “you”. Read the original um’s post—he made a comment about you using his pen name.

Anyway, I am not “!” either. And sure, due to a misspelling it appears I have demons. A typo dammed me. Isn’t that just the way it goes. 😅

Posted by: I um | September 26, 2024 at 10:24 PM

Because “um” (aka umami) was using this pen name before you.

You have completely different writing styles. The “fake” reference was supposed that be more humorous than offensive. I didn’t intend to offend you.

[Gina]

“The light grows brighter” is a concept from the New Testament.

What it means is that in this Iron Age even the teachers of God continue to grow and become more illuminated with truth.

Don’t be afraid to question your beliefs.

Sometimes these questions we have lead us to profound truths.

It’s the willingness to evolve that leads us to true love and understanding.

@ Gina

From the very beginning there has been an tendency in the sangat to mold the teachings in THEIR way.

It is the same tendency that can be found in the developments in the RC church ever since 1968. In order to keep the church alive, more and more adjustments to the very core of Christianity are made. In some European countries even THAT was not enough and was the clergy not able to keep churches open, have enough priests for the ceremonies , where monasteries closed one after the other.

What remains is what I would call "wellness relogion" or "lifelong-good-spirituality"

So IMO what happened to the sangats in Europe etc cannot be seen apart grom a general change in attributing value and meaning to religion and spirituality.

That said RSSB reacted in a different way to that spirit of the time change. than the RC church did. Rssb is not prepared to change the core teachings in order to PLEASE the seekers, students, disciple or however one wants to call those that are interested..

People, generaly spoken, wanted to RECREATE what they had heard about the "lofty" times between 1965 and 1990 ..as people try to do with all other things that are labeled as pleasant...be it cakes, holidays or other events.

It is the same mechanism that one sees when a shop opens, flourishes and soon others open the same shop to take their part

Recreation of pleasurable events from the past.

So started the spread of the interest for Asian, culture ...Do like me, it will make you happy .. in the seventies.

It is all psychological and sociological .. nothing special at all.
Posted by: um | September 27, 2024 at 06:43 AM

[Gina]

If the “truth” can’t withstand questioning and testing then it’s not the Truth.

[um]

@ Gina

You seem to attribute the changes to Divine intervention, beyond the understanding and knowledge of Gurinder , that is alright and something for you to find out whether that is true or not.

For me it is just an sociological phenomena, part of an general change in culture., ..something that everybody daily can witness .

[um]

@ I Um

Alright, I believe you

[Gina]

This is the Truth https://youtu.be/rtOvBOTyX00?si=xsb7q6W4UMFi8IDV
Time is irrelevant.

[um]

@ Gina,

From the song
I have died every day waiting for you
Darling, don't be afraid
I have loved you for a thousand years
I'll love you for a thousand more
And all along I believed I would find you
Time has brought your heart to me
I have loved you for a thousand years
I'll love you for a thousand more

You see Gina ... that longing is a gift, if it is not there nothing and nobody can do anything about it.

If that inner pull, that inner longing for the divine is yours, your reality, what is there to say?

Hahaha ... I am not even a poor beggar... as I just would not know what to beg for and from whom or what ....\I try to digest life as it presents itself to me day by day ..sometimes with a laugh and at other times with tears etc ...I am not romantic I am a cultural barbarian that doesn't care about art or science ..and satisfy myself with coffee.

[Chiro]

I find it very painful when I hear the sort of obvious lies spouted by @Sant64 about Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, similarly another poster in another thread claimed outrageously that he had girls lined up every evening. Or that Maharaji never had a job the decades he spend every minute of His day serving the sangat while he lived on the income from His ancestral family farm. Slander is often hard to define, I personally struggle with all I have said about Gurinder even if I have no pangs of conscience for it, as I firmly believe from my own bitter experience everything I said. I pray that if I am wrong somehow, and he is really a true Satguru, and not just a manager Maharaji put in place as he had no worthy successor, I am open to revise my opinion. However, all news I hear about him is bad. The loud threats of Soamiji and other saints that one who slanders a Satguru or among the Sufis a Murshid will go to hell, ring in my ears and make them sore. I pray I have not done so.

What are all the new satsang centers being built for? Arriving Indians not Westerners. Someone even raised the bogeyman of racism, well in my experience that was unknown in the British sangat until the Indians, under the incoming brutal Gurinder regime, hungry for conquest and power, flooded the English sangat, and one could feel their animosity as well as Gurinder's for the English satsangis. My first experience of that was the first time I came across them at Gurinder's first visit when both the Punjabi and British sangats were thrown together for the first time at the National Convention Center to welcome the new Guru. Our loving Radha Soami greetings to the Indians were met with barely concealed glares. Nothing was the same after that as the natives, smaller in number, were sidelined, and a new heavy mob of Indian sewadars, scanning everyone suspiciously for possession of phones or recording devices took over. That’s what sent the Westerners running to the hills, not science or any wish for modernity. Rather the Western satsangis loved the teachings, the culture, and the history of Beas, and the Wonder, Wonder, Wonder, of having had four perfect masters all in a row.

I also find @Um's defence of Indians, with unceasing put downs of Westerners, trying to deny their reasons for leaving the RSSB, tiresome. As I remember Westerners in general terms found the path only after long searches for the truth and not because of marriage as is the case with many if not most Indians certainly these days. In that way the Westerners were inspired by the stories of how many Masters and Saints in India had to spend years of their lives going from place to place, often with great hardship, seeking the truth. The tortuous life of Baba Somnath, sent by The Great Master to spread Sant Mat in South India, being a prime example.

I also take issue with those trying to say that the reason for them leaving had to do with modern perceptions of science, or that they had no interest in the path. In fact it is my experience with the Indian modern post-MCS community that having a Guru for a vast number of them is just a fashion tick-list of the new emigre Indian elite, somewhere along with love for their children, family, career, education, house, car, Guru, vegan kitten (fashion toy for the kids) and smartphone. I hear Indians say how much they love Gurinder. Anyone who has a basic understanding of the path knows that human love is worthless. Real love comes only as a response to the light of the Divine just as a rock in winter is cold but in summer with the sunshine, it becomes warm. The rock, as the sun goes down over the bay and a chill arises, may boast how warm it is making those who sit on it. But that warmth is from above as true love is from above. One satsangi told Maharaji, "I no longer love my wife" and he replied "So where is that love you had to begin with gone?" That is the value of worldly love, it is only a transaction in the end. "He loves Himself through us" Maharaji used to say, and both ultimately merge in that love into one because we always were one but we down here did not know it.

A Pakistani lady in my old street in London decades ago, whose son in law and husband used to beat her black and blue full of bruises for her willingness to tell them right from wrong, who I used to respectfully address as Maulani, told me her daughter and son in law were going to Mecca on Haj. I opined that was a good thing, thinking, "Well they may gain some spiritual uplift from it" But she said "No, no, it's just fashion Haj!" That is how I see a good proportion of the Indian sangat now, drunk on love and lust for education, career, material objects, grasping business and political power, and being part of the vast invasion from that continent who now form a threat to the native peoples of Europe along with the millions, the multitudes, of Africans and others being shipped in by the regimes at the behest of their financial masters, to deliberately make the Europeans a minority in their own lands, and doing so following the Kalergy Plan, funded by the Rothschilds in the 1930s to ensure that the threat of the only race who understood the sort of world the elites have in store for us, are removed. That very group through the banks have undemocratically installed Indian prime ministers both in Ireland and Britain; men who never had a single vote to put them there but were slid into power by Goldman Sachs. The PMs of Canada and France likewise promoted into power by Goldman Sachs.

However, I do not see that disappointment with Indians in Europe as a reason for Westerners not going to RSSB anymore, seeking the truth comes from the heart and soul, an instinct above all such worldly concerns. It is Love that attracts the souls as honey attracts the bees, and if there is no Love in the current RSSB, only fear and control and perhaps even widespread spiritual ignorance, it is no wonder if the vibes being given out do not attract the true seekers.

As to Maharaj Charan Singh, He was taken as a baby from His family by the Great Master to be raised at the Dera. Why? Because he was being trained as a future Master. Great Master related that his Pothi who accompanied him on his tours came to Beas to visit. While the two sat conversing in Great Master's house little Charan trailed into the room with a toy along the floor, oblivious of their presence looking no doubt rather like the beautiful Hindu pictures of little Lord Krishna with the milk. On seeing Him the Pothi rose up, walked over, knelt down and kissed His feet. Then he returned and sat with Great Master who asked him "Why you kissed the baby's feet?" The Pothi answered "Because one day He will be a great Saint" The Great Master said "You are right and you did the right thing."
Like all saints in their youth, as they all admit in their bani, Maharaji was enchanted by the world as much as He was enchanted by the path. He longed to have sons for example. And as with the Saints He also made progress in meditation but just like Great Master had not reached the final stage upon his appointment. This seems to be a normal occurrence in the history, and for reasons Kabir explained which I related in previous posts. After his dasturbani Maharaji was locked in a house away from His family every night by four locks, one on the entrance to the compound, one at the front door, one on his floor and one at the door of His room. In that way he was held prisoner to meditate until He achieved the final goal.

Maharaji from the moment He rose in the morning until late in the evening was the prisoner of the sangat. Meeting after meeting, interview after interview he had to sit down with almost no exercise beyond a walk in His garden in the morning after His bath. He sat to be seen at seva while answering more than a hundred letters a day from disciples. Both of the cars he was driven in were cheap, no Mercedes, Bentley or the sort of cars Gurinder moves about in. When in Delhi he was driven in a tiny Indian Ambassador, modelled on the English Morris-Oxford. Maharaji was very tall, well over six feet and he travelled long distances to give satsang outside Delhi crouched into that Ambassador. Maharaji suffered a lot of illness, especially during initiations, He had heart problems from the prisoner like lifestyle that one poster in a previous thread claimed was a life of luxury. During his dasturbani Gurinder disrespectfully claimed that Maharaji had used the excuse of a small illness to get out of His job. In fact I heard of the doctors report at the time stating that Maharaji had died of multiple heart attacks one after another, surely a painful death as much as the death of other Saints.

[Gina]

@um

True love doesn’t need romance. Sometimes I think romantic love is a cheap distraction from the real thing. It’s a distraction that most of the world is caught up in.

[um]

@ Gina

As said many a time by now, I used hardly ever the word love.
I know how it is used in language and what meanings and values are attributed to it.
Otherwise I have no idea what it is all about.

Reason probably why during an evening sketch in which I had to play the role of a patient, was supposed to need injections with Land D, love and devotion. Upon the whole audience inclusive the late MCS, laughed their heart out

Add too it how he used to define love as "Love being God and god being love" and you might understand that I am complete ignorant.

That said I do have positive and negative feelings towards people like all other human beings seem to have, feelings that naturally arise in me, without any interference on my part and with whhich I have to deal

Again I can write these words, love and god, I also know how these words are cultural etc used but I myself never used these words as they are no part of my human experience.

[Gina]

@um

God is love and love is all there is.

What good is a saint if he doesn’t embody love? What good is anything if it doesn’t bring about peace and love?

We shouldn’t try to be “holy”. We should just try to be wholly loving.

[Chiro]

To add a note to my last, many readers may be too young to remember that despite the constrictions and restrictions of any institution ,there was a real feeling of freedom and personal self-worth experienced within the atmosphere which Maharaji created. I hear today people expressing fear and guilt within that institution and having to watch their words. If you are too young to remember there is a classic work by an American lady Katherine Wason, who was fluent in shorthand entitled 'The Living Master.' She stayed at the Dera for some months recording Maharaji's every word to the Western guests. Among the rarest of Sant Mat books and inordinately expensive to buy secondhand, it is available to read or listen to free on the Internet Archive (Peace be upon it). Perhaps unsurprisingly the Dera publications unit has not seen fit to give it a reprint, perhaps the comparison with the Dera today and then would be too painful for them.
Jesus, who knew His eventual fate, said in a discourse "Take up your cross and follow me." This is the humility of a saint that given all He like Guru Arjan Dev and Mansur and many others had to suffer at the hands of the priestly classes, yet placed those tortures on a par with the daily suffering of you and I: https://archive.org/details/the-passion-of-the-christ-2004_202211 I would also urge you to watch the seminal video by Prof. David Christopher Lane, a former commentator on the Dera about Maharaji: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_L5sWz6b1k

[um]

@ Chiro

The book is available for 14 American Dollars.
https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&ref=bf_s2_a1_t1_1&qi=PWE1qk4zN1aySfVAG8kRIPzWtAI_1727512582_1:4446:8245&bq=author%3Dkatherine%2520wason%26title%3Dliving%2520master

And ....

There might be an other reason, why the book is not published again , a reason that has nothing to do with what you suggest. but solely with her.

[um]

@ Chiro

>> I also find @Um's defence of Indians, with unceasing put downs of Westerners, trying to deny their reasons for leaving the RSSB, tiresome. As I remember Westerners in general terms found the path only after long searches for the truth and not because of marriage as is the case with many if not most Indians certainly these days<<

If I may speak for my self ...I am not defending or attacking anybody, Facts by themselves are meaningless and valueless. These are qualifications that have to be attributed to these facts and everybody does it according his own understanding etc.

If there is a black spot on the wall and one stands close to the wall the whole field of vision is black. Upon stepping back the environment makes the blackness seen in a different way, both in quality and quantity and from even more distance there is no black spot to be seen even.

Yes the changes, the visibility of them, became visible shortly after 1990 after the successor took over the reins of the organisation but that doesn't mean that the changes are due to him.

And yes the advise the late MCS not to speak ill of others and certainly not saints is a wise advise and worthy to be heed ...not for the tread that are attached to it but for the psychological and mental welfare of each and everyone

These great spirits that say .."know thy self" and "in knowing thyself thy will know god" never said "Know thy guru".

People should not worry about the perfectness of a living guru but about the perfectness of themselves as seeker, disciple etc.

Even if the guru is not perfect, the disciple can be perfect. Judging a guru, making statements about his qualities, material, mental and spiritual does not make anybody a better disciple not even an better human being.

That all said ..I do agree with all and everything you wrote as it is the expression of what many people feel ...the difference if there is any is with what one does with these feelings and understandings.

[um]

@ Gina, Chiro and others

It should be clear that I do love tales etc as they make complicate things available in a simple way.

Often I used here the tale of Leila an Jamun. I did so as i makes clear many things about the way people love. It hints at love vs conditioned love and that love is not a matter of deserving but a gift, a gift that can be given to the discretion of the giver to everybody and everything he wants.

I suppose that there are people that have the seem feelings for the current guru as for his predecessor and uncle, people like you and me. Like there are people like you and me that looked upon the late MCS with opposite feelings

People should own their own feelings both possitive and negative as THEIRS and not outsource them..

If you are not pleased in any way by the current guru, that is alright, it is all yours why blame him for these feelings.

The changes long ago where not according my liking, not my cup of tea so I stopped drinking that tea.. That doesn't say there is something wrong with the tea. I am not an esxpert and not payed to sit in judgement, like connoisseurs, experts, court judges etc ... i am just an consumer that looks after his own interests and that is what I did.

With joy and gratitude i remember the days that I enjoyed the tea .. gratitude realizing what all it brought into my life even to this very day and I am not going to spoil it by trying to swallow tea that I do not like.

[La Madrugada]

@Um
And....
There might be an other reason, why the book is not published again, a reason that has nothing to do with what you suggest but solely with her.

Um, I vaguely remember rumors about a scandal with Katherine Wason, a Charan Singh initiate who became a guru. After that the book has not been reprinted.

[um]

@La Madrugada

Being closely connected with the translation and production of books, i do remember that the late MCS was very protective towards the authors. When pointed out that certain remarks of this or that author in the text were not "acceptable" he always backed up the writer. Not in terms of agreeing but defending their right to speak their own words and in doing so never wanted the original texts be changed, certainly if the person was not around.

In retrospect, I have heard of many strange storiews of those that were initially very near and dear to him or had "high" positions in the organisations.

Maybe those that are loving the teacher and teachings from a greater distance are much better off than those whose fate it was to be closely associated with him and people like him.

[Gina]

The one thing about worshipping the invisible God, as opposed to a human being is the love is always there. The peace is always there. God gives love freely to all at all times.

Chasing gurus around like they’re rockstars is a recipe for emotional instability and disappointment.

[Gina]

I really believe that most satsangis have a romantic notion of love for their guru. I’m not saying it has anything to do with sex, but it’s romantic nonetheless. That type of love isn’t the highest form of love and it will always disappoint. True love is stable. True love is deep abiding peace.

[um]

@ Gina

>> The one thing about worshipping the invisible God, as opposed to a human being is the love is always there. The peace is always there. God gives love freely to all at all times.<<

I know nothing about God and love. I am a human being among others.
If I look outside there is a gray sky.
I am old enough that the sun must be still there behind the clouds.
But also old enough that it is not in my power to make the sun shine

Both love ...AND ... receptivity ... are a GIFT ..a GIFT

A gift so rarely given that it can be compared with winning a lottery ... bu .. bying a lotter ticket can be a solace ...hahahaha

[Gina]

@um

What you speak of reminds me of specialness.

Who among us is so very special? Aren’t we all equal in the eyes of God?

I don’t need a guru to “love” me or approve of me because I have the love of the Eternal One. He is the one who gives his love freely without discrimination.

I have no need for “special” love.

[777]

Gina
We are equal in the sense
that we are God 100%, not a drop but the whole Ocean
in voluntary "temporal" hyper amnesia
a)
Excellent hiding place
b)
High IQ, EQ and QE way to use "eternity" to generate Love
which is Compassion
which is the PINNACLE of Evolution

Makes free will understandable
Makes all differences understandable

UM will stop complains after seeing it

777

[um]

@ Gina

I know nothing about god but what I do know that in human history people have had so called inner experiences that made them exclaim that they were god and had to pay for it with their own lives.

I also know about the NDE's, the drugs and plants related experiences and so more.

I do not have these experiences and I am not in a position to verify them nor do I like to consider these peoples to be liars as that too would a baseless qualification without prove of it.

From the very onset of my life I have HEARD many things about god, Jesus, Gurus, angels etc comming into the lives of people. Having the desire to be as normal as others I wondered why I never had such experiences.

To day I prefare to be who happen to be, not knowing by the way what that is all about, i do my best to clean up my mind from all these things I have HEARD off and just stick to my experiences of everyday life.

The late McS said once to an american Lady ..It is that you bring it before me otherwise I would not have known. Most people use that expression to state the humility they attribute to him, believing he knew everything but ik just accepteed his words for what they were.

\I use this sutra, one liner in modern palaver for other things too.

IF people not would have talked about God and many other things I would have known nothing aboput it and would not have missed it or cared about.

In a sense I feel sorry for myself having thought I had to take in so many things in.

That said Gina .. the only thing that I know is that I am alive ...and .. very important .. I know how to make coffee ... and I do know something about human behaviour, the psychology of man. .. in the same way as an painter loves to look at flowers for paiting.

[um]

@777

>> UM will stop complains after seeing it<<

Tell me 777 where and when what I complaining about what?

I jave arrived at the point that people have wealth, material, mental and spiritual, that I do not have.

FORTUNATELY i was raised in a family were focusing on the wealth of others was an taboo, to say te least. And from them I learned also that love and respect are gifts and that the giver is free to give to any body without justification.

You are in many ways a wealthy man, that fact doesn't change the taste of my coffee
You follow my point?

I can write the word God and love and know how it is used but otherwise it is meaningless for me. But there are many other words the concept I know of but only in theatrical way .. jealousy..... is one of these words.

Finaly.
I am a strong believer in what comes next:
Ar the end of a life a person might come before a judge and he will say:
"WE .. we gave you wealth, good health and many more, now tell us what you have done with it"
To others will be said:
"WE .. we gave you all imaginable hardships to live by poverty, sickness etc et now tell us how you handled it"

And everything in between these two extremes.

Sometimes 777 i have the idea that you payed little attention to what the late MCS had to say about human behaviour.

[um]

@ Gina

Gina in my book ...YOU ...you gina with your lovely Italian name ... YOU are an unique variation of the same.

Before YOU in the whole history of the universe there is been somebody like you and after this life there will never be someone the like of you.

It is up to you to live that variation. of human being

It ius a great and rare gift
Even if I have no idea about a GIVER
I just know that you are not the giver.

[manjit]

I haven't read the comments here, but with all due to respect to the original comment's author and their obvious earnestness, I feel they have completely misrepresented the real dynamic of what is and has occurred with Indian Gurus in context of western society from the 60s-present and that it can be easily proven to be so; what other RS or indeed Indian "Satguru" from any type of tradition has a booming, or even plateauing, generation of new western seekers? Simply doesn't exist. As somebody who appears to still believe in the outdated, unfashionable beliefs of Indian gurus and spirituality, they have falsely projected this decline upon Gurinder rather than a general global shift in perspectives on these fake babas and their anachronistic theologies, a culture of disbelief in them and their claims.

I think an interesting thought experiment is to imagine if Gurinder was in charge from 50s-90s, and Charan took over in 2000s, what would be the narratives then? Personally, I have no doubt whatsoever it would be along the lines of " Oh that Gurinder was so magnetic, a real tangible force and presence, so powerful, fearless, but this new Charan is so bland, so vanilla, so boring. Look at all the expensive watches he has his followers smuggle across borders. He didn't even meditate as a kid! And, to cap it off.....a blatant homophobe. Nope, this is no satguru, he's just a shill for the family business....." ?

People underestimate how the cultural winds shape their views, beliefs and lifestyles.

Here's some previous musings of mine on this very matter:

"For me, after all these years, I am saddened at the state of shabd yoga. It has so much potential, but it is lost in the outdated ideology, sociology and culture of a medieval Indian sect of religous adherents.

Because of the 60s, it caught on in the west (I'll leave it to the sagacity of any readers to understand the sweeping reach and obviousness of this argument without expanding on it). But the 60s are long gone now, and nobody's buying the patent absurdity of the Radhasoami dogma, so obviously a product of it's geo-cultural roots. The only followers in the west will be those stragglers from the 60s & 70s, maybe a few from the 80s. The rest of the new membership will be your standard religious intake....family members and the odd few still attracted to such an outdated & outmoded philosophy and practice.

Let's face it, Radhasoami is dead in the west, and dead as a vibrant living spiritual path. It is a religion like any other. Mainly for Indians, too.

The reasons should be obvious for any observant connoisseur of world trends & the history and evolution of spiritual thought & practices, but too complex to fully expand on here."
https://groups.io/g/RadhasoamiStudies/message/189337
"He is not interested in the only remaining western sangat - a rapidly aging collection of adherents who were profoundly unconsciously influenced by the floodgates that were opened up in the west in the 60s when psychedelic substances became more available and popular, and which led to the flood of eastern mysticism and eager Babas which came to the west to make some sort of conceptual sense or context for the very real experiences the transmundane psychedelic substances opened up. He is not interested in satsangis in their late 50s, 60s, 70s or above who have invested decades of their life to this faith, and for whom any glimmer of a real "search for truth" was lost many, many years ago as they sank into the dualistic, religious beliefs, dogma and experiences of RS which provides no peace to anyone, evidently. Sunken cost fallacy is a thought that arises here."
https://groups.io/g/RadhasoamiStudies/message/205018

"Whilst I understand the mean average age of RSSB satsangis online is about 73 years old (which goes up to about 81 when I leave the forum :), so they are from a rapidly out-moded & irrelevant world view, but Charan Singh's truly abhorrent, ignorant, vile and judgemental comments about homosexuality would be seen by the vast majority of people in today's generation - especially the more "spiritual" lot - precisely for what they are. And that is not the comments of an all powerful, all wise, all loving emissary of "God" as laughably defined in RS dogma! As I say, there is a reason why virtually nobody under the age of 40 who has no familial relations to RS is joining any organisation any more, unlike the 60s, 70s & 80s. They are not gullible enough to confuse out-dated cultural judgements and morals with the eternal word of "God", just like only a bit of an idiot would think God "Himself" decrees a woman must walk 9 paces behind her husband, because "He" wrote it in the Koran, dummy."
https://groups.io/g/RadhasoamiStudies/message/203973

"3) Are the only "Satsangis" left, not born into the religion, remnants from a 60s culture that influenced them, their choices and their beliefs in ways they haven't fully understood?

Look, just because I took acid, was born into a culture where eastern spirituality and gurus were booming, the heady & intoxicating mix of new-age thinking and mysterious turbaned gurus irresistible to certain types of people, doesn't mean I was influenced by that!

And the fact there is no other generation of new western followers of this perennially true & universally elite theology is merely coincidence!"
https://groups.io/g/RadhasoamiStudies/message/199232

[Jim Sutherland]

@“opinions” regarding the legacies of Charan Singh and how Gurinder might be written about, after his demise,…I stumbled on this interesting opinion of Charan Singh’s legacy many years ago, by an anonymous Author, and filed it in my Archives for future discussions such as this tread.

A MYSTIC is neither a necromancer nor a spiritual solipsist, not even a theologian, adept in the art of séances, mediums and the like, but the one who has a direct experience of the Eternal Being, who has tasted the elixir of divine knowledge without making any formal use of his ratiocinative faculties, and who, by his sheer grace, can illuminate human minds enmeshed in gross ignorance. Maharaj Charan Singh, the fourth spiritual Master o[ Radhasoami Sat-sang, with its headquarters at Beas, was a selfless mystic the Logos in human form , whose mind and soul remained attuned to the Supreme• Self, even while he was performing his duties in the terrestrial region.

But he was no ordinary mystic, who, in his bid to merge with the divine nature, would don the garment of a hermit and lead a life, of quietude, or go on demonstrating his Psi abilities of ecsomatic experiences to win accolades from people around. Rather, he preferred the life of a householder, in the true Tradition of Bhakti reformers, without making any high claims about himself. "'The doctrine is not my own. Every mystic has been giving us the same teachings", he said. His spiritual attainment did not turn him into a recluse or a religious salesman, but activated his propensity to serve humanity as per the requirements of time. He was both recipient of Supreme Knowledge, and the agent for its spread among a large section of people both in India and abroad.

Even Though comparisons between god men may look odious• if not supercilious, as They are shaped in different milieus and cater to the varying needs of human beings, ordinary mortals like this author- may not be able to restrain Themselves from making such a venture.

Maharaj Charan Singh did not like Satya Sai Baba, materialize things from air such as cardamoms, candies, watches or Vibhuti to leave a magical spell on his audiences, because he disapproved of psychism as a means to restoring faith in things supernal. Such actions, he argued, left a very injurious effect on the mind and the will power of tile performer, without helping him in any way. The Maharaj was never a Socrates to his detractors like Osho Rajneesh, but a Buddha in whose presence all questions and misgivings melted away. He remained virtually non-controversial, and never entered into the ping-pong of debate, even though he was a bachelor of laws, and once a practicing lawyer of standing.

Unlike Jiddu Krishnamurti, he did not always employ a strict philosophical idiom, with its ontological and epistemological ramifications, during the course of his talks; the reason being that his audiences included people of all types, ranging from the strictly academic to the completely illiterate. Nor did he agree with him that one could gain realization without the guidance of a guru.

In physical appearance, Maharaj Charan Singh was perhaps the handsomest of them all -- his face emitting pink, and his superb carriage and erect backbone giving him a majestic look. Like Osho and Krishnamurti, he had a sparkling pair of eyes which appeared to he soaring high into tile sky, trying to unravel the mystery of the universe. Hia- bearded appearance reminded one of the seers of your wondering in the Himalayas, And even of Mahesh Yogi, although the latter did not sup­port a headgear. But he was no whirling dervish, nor a holy man in saffron or gaudy apparel. In his simple attire he was a veritable image of serenely which fascinated one and all. His musical voice and rhythmic movements reminded one of Swami Vivecananda, and in more recent times, of Osho and Chinmayananda. His large following was matched only by that of Satya Sai Baba and Dada Ji.

Maharaj Charan Singh was tile spiritual Pied piper who did not merely enchant the people by the music of his soul, but also taught them how to blow their own "pipe", and hear the divine melody eternally resounding within them. In the process, a cult grew around him but he did not, at any stage, wished to be apotheosized. He never allowed anyone to touch his feet because of his firm faith in the dignity of man. Nor did he spend a single penny of the organization which he headed for his personal use. He transformed tile dilapidated Dera of Baba Jaimal Singh into a virtual township, and provided it a holiness and sanctity which goes with the name of ancient cities like Benaras and Hardwar, sans their dirt and dust, and occasional inhuman practices.
If one were looking for a place where one can find spiritual solace as well as the basic amenities of life at the minimum price, where one can find the spirit of sewa at its best, where politics and commercialized activities are discouraged, where no distinction is made between man and man, where people belonging to all reli­gions socialise in a more or less brotherly manner, and where the presence of the Master can be felt even in his physical absence, one should immediately turn to Beas.

During the spiritual stewardship of Maharaj Charan Singh (1951-1990) the Derv presented a supreme example of how community work could be done in a voluntary way, on such a large scale, and how religion could be put to better use for serving humanity. The functioning of langar, or the community kitchen, and Maharaja Saran Singh. Charitable Memorial Hospital, built at a cost of more than Rs 9 crore, with the physical, mental and material services of devotees, is a clear case in point.

Maharaj Charan Singh's teachings were so simple chat even the man in the street could grasp them, without making much effort. Based, as these were, on his own spiritual experiences and the discoveries of saints and seers in the realm of being, they were neither characterized by vaguer eclecticism or mystical imagery, nor by metaphysical jugglery. He laid emphasis on the essence and not on palliatives or platitudes. There was no place for bigotry or fanaticism in his thought nor for meaningless rituals or superstitions. He emphasized that religious intolerance was born of sick minds, for did any holy man ever try to divide humanity?'

"Every saint has the same message to give, and' the same ' teachings to impart.... No perfect Master comes into this world to create a religion ... to 'set one nation against another, or one religion against another. They come only to show us the way which leads us back to our original home. After a Master departs, people generally turn to rites and rituals, and give his lofty teachings the form of an organized religion. Then we become bigoted, we start fighting and quarreling with one another, and tile real teachings of the saint are soon forgotten," he said.
The predicament of man was that even though he reflected the light of the divine being, he had come under the spell of the vicious tendencies of the mind and forgotten the real purpose of life. Man had failed to see the ephemeral nature of sensory pleasures and the dangers inherent in the proliferation of ego. As a result, he was cut off from the audible life stream or Shabad, and had lost sight of his divine home and divine origin.

Like a psychologist, Maharaj Charan Singh laid bare the intricacies of the human mind which had the bad habit of flitting from one object to another, and yet remaining unfulfilled. "We contact the outside world through the mind and the senses, but the tragedy is that the mind itself has been enslaved by the senses and has thus acquired a downward tendency. Fond of pleasure by nature ... no object in the world can hold it for ever, or even for any length of time. If we can withdraw it from the outside world and make it "go in", it will catch the divine melody which is echoing in all of us," he explained.

The fickleness o[ human mind cannot be adequately checked by ritualistic observances, austere discipline or penitential deeds, even though these may have a tranquilizing effect. But how long can sedatives work it the basic problem persists? "The fire is only covered with ashes and will flare up again when the wind of the (five) passions blows". Only by entering a no-mind state, can man hope to alleviate his bruised spirit and gain peace in turn. That can be possible by raising one's consciousness to Trikuti, by way of Nam Bhakti. "We do not have to go far to find Nam",he said. "It is within us. That part of the body from the eyes upwards is the seat of Nam. There are nine openings, or doors, in the body from the eyes downward. It is through these that the mind spreads out into the world. It should not be permitted to roam about there. It must be withdrawn from the world and the nine openings, and brought back to 'Tisra Til', the 'Third eye', which is the seat of the mind and the soul, and held there."

The tragedy of the majority of people was that they failed to distinguish between Varnat-mak Nam and Dunyatmak Nam. The former, signifying words that could be uttered or spoken (viz. Rams, Krishna, Wahe guru, Allah), served onlyas to concentration, and from age to age, and unity to community. The latter,on the other hand, rep­resented the unspoken and the unwitten word, and could lead one forth supreme realization. It transcended pace and causation, and yet had a local habitat within us where it could be contacted. The Maharaj admonishedthat devotion to Varnatmak Nam to the exclusion Dhunyatmak Nam led to partisan cries", "bigotry" or fanaticism", while devotion to Dhunyatmak Nam made us rise above "castes and creeds, wars and strifes", for, in that we saw "the divine in all.

The sound current variously referred to as Shabad, Dhun, Akashvani, Kalma, Kun, Bangillahi, Nad-i-Asmani or the Logos, in different religious traditions found an able exegete in Maharaj Charan Singh who described it as the substance of existence. But realization could not be achieved by browsing through books, undertaking fasts of pilgrimages adopting a peculiar life or visiting places of worship. It is within oneself that one must seek Him.. Unlike orthodox Sikhs, he laid emphasis on the need for a spiritual Master, who could,’ through Nam Dan lead one towards the path which connects the soul of the disciple to the sound current.. Initiation was not a shallow ritual or a ceremony of sorts, but the birth of a new soul. He, however, made it clear that it would be futile to expect miraculous results immediately after initiation. Since the secret of withdrawing the consciousness to the eye center before linking it to the word lay with the perfect Master, it was expected of the devotee to have an ardent faith ii him, , and to follow his teachings without any inhibition or hesitation. Maharaja Charan Singh often quoted from the Bible and the Adi Granth to prove his point. "He that bath seen me bath seen the Father ... Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me", says Jesus Christ. Guru Aryan Use corroborates the idea thus: "Within me the Father has revealed Himself; Father and Son have met and become one. Says Nanak, when the Father is pleased, the Father and the Son are dyed in one hub."

Sat sang, or true association with the Master was essential for cleansing one's mind of all imperfections, for achieving inner harmony, and for acquiring the attitude of a gurmukh who lives unsullied in the world as the duck remains in water. However, the highest form of Satsang was to be one with one's inner self. Jealousy, pride and ego were poisons, more dangerous than the venom of cobra, in so far as the spiritual ascension of a person was concerned. The only antidote to these "substances" was Simran•and Bhajan. The former involved the repetition of the Five Holy Names according to the prescribed technique revealed to the disciple at tin time of initiation. The latter signified meditation, during the course of which one did simran and dhyana (contemplation), and listened to the Eternal Sound. It may be noted that while in the Yoga and Tantra schools consciousness is normally awakened by piercing subtle centers, one by one, starting with the Muladhara, the Radhasoamis begin with the Ajna Chakra deliberately ignoring the lower centers, and focus their attention between the two eyebrows.

Maharaj Chran Singh, like most Indian seers and philo­sophers, believed in Karma - the Universal law of cause and effect - according to which man was punished or reward (led for his bad and good deeds, respectively, and continued to undergo the process of birth and death till his account was cleared. "Every one wears the . letters of Karma, be he' prince or beggar, rich or poor, man or woman", he said. "It is Karma which keeps us in the prison of flesh. If we do good deeds, we may be born as princes or rich men; but this does not bring about liberation from the wheel of birth and death. Instead of being 'C' class prisoners, merely become 'A' class prisoners; but we are still in jail." The union of the human soul with the sound current alone can nullify the cycle of karma.

All this should not he taken to mean that Maharaj Charan Singh's gospel bordered on fatalism. In fact, held, that the doctrine of Karma was not against "making any effort", nor did it promote exclusion from family or societal responsibilities. In a letter to his disiciple he once wrote, “My advice is that you go on honestly and conscientiously with your work ... It behooves us, to live and act in such a way that we may not feel ashamed before Him." He asked his disciples to refrain from alcoholic drinks and other intoxicants as also to take a purely vegetarian diet. the reason being that stimulants and animal food were baneful to spiritual growth, and sometimes wrecked even the physical organism.

Maharaj Charan Singh brought about a metamorphosis in the life of a large segment of his initiates. Not that, all of them became able to open their third eye, but they, at least, learnt the true art of living. Many among them ceased to be drug, addicts, alcoholics, wife-beaters or peddlers in illicit and inhuman trades. Many others experienced the spiritual ecstasy they had so ardently desired before coming under his spell, and for the attainment of which they had moved from one spiritual preceptor to another. At a time when mankind is undergoing a climacterically phase, Maharaj Charan Singh's words instantly echo in my mind:

"Please remember that peace lies within you and not anywhere outside. Live harmoniously, - love each other, and follow the principles of give and take, forgive and forget, and you will find how happy and peaceful your life will become ... The root of all troubles lies in the mind within you, and wherever you go, you will carry it with you ... We are not to run away from, life like cowards, but to face it like the brave, ignoring and overlooking faults and weaknesses, and treating life's turmoil’s with indifference."

Jim Sutherland

[um]

@ Manjit

Under the layer you describe, there was another that laid the foundation for the appearance of eastern worldviews etc in Europe.

First were those that worked within a colonial organisation in Asia, Not only India but also elsewhere

Part of that group had connections with Theosophy, antroposophy, Rosicrucians and the other different masonic branches..

THESE people were the introducers, the explainers , the teachers etc that helped the Woodstock generation understand what eastern thought etc is all about.

With great pleasure, respect and gratitude i do remember these people as they took my by the hand so to say and with lots of tea, cookies etc they opened up a until then new mental world.

They were instrumental in the discovery of the world beyond Christianity, beyond Europe etc.

[Sunil]

Has anyone seen this
A case against Dera and GSD in court, next hearing on 5th Nov

https://youtu.be/a65_uqgY87Q

[Gina]

@um

I’ve learned to live in God’s will. That’s all that matters to me. Because it is said, “God’s will IS your will”. Meaning only he knows what is best for you and what will make you happy. We humans think we know what we want but we can’t see the big picture and often choose the very things that will bring us pain. But God knows us better than we know ourselves and he sees the macro perspective. He only gives us what is best for us.

[um]

@ Gina

If one knows Gods will, living accordingly seems the only or best wise option.to do.

And Yes, humans can have only an human view upon themselves and the the universe they live in. By necessity that must be a restricted way as no things that exist brought themselves into existence and for that reason the can never know who and what the are and are capable of.

If I speak of "MY" hand than i know quite a lot of what "I" can do with it but speaking of the same hand as "A" hand than with some reflection and a cup of coffee, i must realize that my understanding of it is restricted rto the use i made of it but that there is much more to it that is beyond my understanding

Anyway ..I know nothing about the existence of god or his/her/its/ affairs nor am I aware of an desire to have such knowledge. ..getting through live is more than enough .

[uncomplicated]

@manjit

Interesting perspective. I believe you’re right. Hostel 6 at Dera is practically a nursing home. 😅

[manjit]

"I believe you’re right. Hostel 6 at Dera is practically a nursing home. 😅"

Hi Uncomplicated! I don't often, especially recently (given the silent complicity of all except one noble soul on the RSS forum, Vajrasrijnana), get many laughs reading the comments here, but this one elicited a genuine giggle, thanks for the laugh!

Hi Um - yes you are right, that is a very important "layer"! The history of the world is very rich, in almost every story there is to be told. We just don't see. That layer you reference, perhaps dating back to Blavatsky's era, is of course very influential and key to the RS story.

I always love to hear your "With great pleasure, respect and gratitude i do remember these people .....".....I get ya! :)

All the best

[Gina]

@um

God invented coffee… (just so you know who to thank). lol

[um]

@ Gina

I am gratefull Gina not only for my coffee, I only just do not know to whom or what.
What I do know is that I did not bring anything into existence, not even my body, nor my personality .. not even trhe words I am typing now....But I am aware of all these things.

[um]

@ Manjit

Speaking about layers.

Years ago \i was treated by a traditional Chinese acupuncturist. He used to set needles when all his patients were sitting in his living room sitting on chairs along all wall. Most of these people were at the end of "normal" treatments without having found an satisfactory solution.. I suppose most of them had the slightest idea about what acupuncture was and/or the reasoning behind it but came attracted through the social rumor about the "remarkable" results of that practitioner.

For somebody like myself, seeing the interactions, the behavior of people, by it self was a weekly treat but what most impressed me was the ATMOSPHERE and atmosphere was almost the opposite of what one finds normally in hospitals and waiting rooms of GP's a depressing sphere of doom ... hahaha.

Most of these people had serious problems jet sitting there with their heads and hands needled, the sphere was light joyous etc so much so that I did always my best to stay longer.

What that sphere was, I do not know nor how it came to be but I do believe, without any explanation or proof, that that very sphere was curative for all ..irrespective their state of mind, irrespective of their believes and understanding of acupuncture.

And THAT .. was what I encountered in the dera whenever I happened to go there

[manjit]

Hi Um - yes, religions can provide a deep sense of commonality, community, healthy societies.

I recall my time doing seva at Haynes Park for several years with great fondness.

But ultimately it is down to what one is looking for in these pursuits; exploring the depths of reality and consciousness, trying to understand the ultimate nature of reality itself, or just a nice sense of community?

[um]

@ Manjit

Hahaha .. if I would have something that i was really looking for, I would make an jump in the air.

From early childhood on I wondered .."how did I came to be here, what am, I doing here"

Not having an answer of myself, I tried to be like others,; walk with them.
Overtime that became less and less satisfying so much so that I had to give it up.
So in fact I am back were I started.

The best thing to add is the conversation I had with the late MCS and the answer that his secretary present added:

Brother the pull must come from within
and upon my reaction "what if it is not there"
Well brother if it is not there it is not there, what can you do

During the process I have come to learn many things about human mind and let go of many fears, worries etc and developed the attitude of adaptation to what is, be it myself or my circumstances and practice the sutra my late dear friend left with me:
"Yes um[my pen name] you are right, you know you are right most of the time, but why does it upset you so much how others behave abd react?

These days I do understand that crows have to caw, the roosters to crow and dogs to bark and that they do not do it to irritate me and that my appreciation of their sounds is meaningless.to them.

[S]

Almost all of us have spent time in RSSB. It served its purpose. It was a very useful stepping stone even if it didn’t feel that way all the time.

It’s immature and somewhat sad to keep complaining about an organization, company, teacher, spouse, etc. years after you’ve left.

We’re all doing the best we can with what we have. At least, I’d like to think so and it’s a lot more helpful to view life that way.

I no longer wish to criticize others (but I still love to tease). This ends “The Great Six Year War”. What a waste of time spent being negative.

Upwards and onwards as they say…

[Gina]

@um

You don’t have to “know” what God’s will is (most people don’t exactly receive a memo) you just simply have to want it more than anything and then your life will automatically move in that direction. Doors will close and doors will open and soon you’ll find that you are exactly where you’re supposed to be. You’ll feel it because all of the sudden things work in synchronicity, and your life will feel more meaningful.

[um]

@ Gina

Gina, I have different times tried to made it clear that you are right.

But as I have state also several times that what you call "want" is not a choice but and natural reaction to something that I call a gift.

And you added ä condition to that "want" you added "more than anything else"

Let me repeat it again what happened speaking to the late MCS:

The pull must come from within
?? and if it is not there??
If it is not there, it is just not there, and there is nothing you can do about it.

I am done with asking, done with the frustration not being heard and accept that some are born to be rich and others poor, and all variations you can add to it Gina.

Thanks to my education , jealousy and feelings related to it is a word I can write but has no practical meaning in my life. ..so it doesn't frustrate me that others have all these things in great measure and I can even rejoice in it for them. as it is always a pleasure to see somebody happy

[Justsayin]

Being good at mediating doesn’t necessarily make you a good person. Some of the most dangerous criminals are phenomenal meditators. One uses his focus so well that he has been locked in solitary confinement for years because he has the ability to influence people’s minds to help him.

The point is, meditation isn’t in and of itself a noble thing. It can be used to liberate the soul and it can also be used perversely to control the minds of others.

After all, when satsangis meditate that are traveling through all the realms of the mind. Some mystic paths avoid the realms of the mind because it is considered too dangerous with all of its temptations. So they start just before the veil and avoid the negative powers tricks and temptations which far too many would have fallen prey to.

[Trez]

GURINDER SINGH DHILLON the most laughed at fraud Baba of India

The laughing stock of the world. Some one who has been sitting on stage and been delving in all sorts on the side, a bit of a side hustle.

A womanising, lying, fraudulent, murderer, money grabbing, land grabbing, nephew money Stealing, wife murderer, paedo cases in Spain, farmers land grabbing...and it goes on

A honest living a honest guy? Nope
Forget a god man he couldn't be a normal person his whole pathetic life.

Now thinks he can get away with a life of stink.
It's coming, it's on its way better late than never judgment day is here for Gurinder goody two shoes.

Exposed and Embarrassed is what's coming so hide Gurinder behind the retirement rubbish you know it's game over

[Kranvir]

Peodo cases in spain for gurinder - this must have been whiped off the net. Now you are panicking and trying to run away and retire and hide. Its all over for you gurinder, face the humiliation of your sad pathetic life as a womanizer, control freak, a fraud, a liar on stage, and hiding in plane site but a dirty fraudulent crook in private. You have said in many satsangs "that for all you know I could be the biggest crook on the planet", and you had that grin, little did we know you were telling the truth.