Why teachers are needed, but not gurus

Back in my true believing days, the 35 years that I was an active member of a guru-centered religious organization (Radha Soami Satsang Beas, or RSSB), I accepted the RSSB adage that a guru was needed because we require teachers throughout our life, and finding God or our true self, pretty much the same thing according to RSSB, really required a teacher, being so difficult on our own.

That made sense at the time, but not now. For in my present way of looking at reality, there's a big difference between needing a teacher (who can be really valuable) and a guru (who can be really problematic). 

I'm not going to rely on dictionary definitions of "teacher" and "guru," because these don't capture the emotional difference between people who embrace someone they call a teacher and someone they call a guru. Being intimately familiar with this difference, having experienced it myself, I'll explain what I mean.

I've had many teachers of various sorts in my life. When I was young, they were classroom teachers in elementary school, high school, and college. When I was working, they were people who knew more than I did about some subject. When I played competitive tennis, they were instructors and coaches who could help me with the flaws in my game. I also consider that every book I've read has taught me something, so all the authors I've read during my lifetime have been teachers.

This just scratches the surface, of course. My wife has been my teacher, along with my daughter and granddaughter. Dogs and cats also. Plus movies and television shows. There's no end to the teachers we encounter, looking upon "teacher" as any entity that helps us learn something. Nature can be a great teacher.

But here's the thing: I've never looked upon any teacher as infallible or irreplaceable. Each of them had strengths and weaknesses. I never worshipped any of them. I never viewed any of them as being different in kind than I was. They simply knew something that I didn't, so there was a flow of knowledge from them to me. Of course, often there was a return flow also, since students can be sources of knowledge for teachers. It goes both ways. 

If a teacher wasn't meeting my needs, I had no problem letting them go and finding a better teacher. Athletes do this all the time with coaches. Students do this all the time with their instructors. For it isn't the person that is important in teaching, it is the knowledge being transmitted from the teacher. If I could get more of that knowledge from someone else, I happily said goodbye to a teacher. 

A guru often, or usually, is looked upon in a different way.

I'm speaking here of real gurus, not those who just have that title applied to them casually, as in "he's a real guru when it comes to fixing computer problems." I'm talking about people who claim to have spiritual, mystical, or religious knowledge that can be conveyed to students, often termed disciples. These gurus typically are viewed as possessing wisdom that others lack, which merits a level of devotion to them that teachers aren't entitled to.

I say this as someone who has been criticized many times by visitors to this blog for not sticking with the RSSB guru who initiated me in 1971, Charan Singh, for my entire life. I'd sometimes reply to those criticisms by saying that I've had two wives, many cars, lots of different teachers, various jobs, numerous houses, and varied political beliefs. So why the heck should meditation or spirituality be the only part of my life that can never change? Why can't I say farewell to Charan Singh, especially since he died in 1990?

The reason offered by avid guru-worshippers was along the lines of, you were initiated by a perfect living guru, God in Human Form; this is a lifetime commitment; even if you don't get the hoped-for results or knowledge, you should have stuck with the guru. 

Well, that's ridiculous.

This attitude assumes that a guru has supernatural powers, so is able to bring benefits to a disciple that an ordinary meditation teacher -- person, book, video, whatever -- can't provide. I heartily disagree with this faith-based assumption. I can easily do this, because I used to be a disciple who felt that way, so I know how wishful thinking can lead followers of a guru astray.

Almost certainly, the human brain and mind is as physical an entity as rocks, trees, and grass are. The only difference is that our brains are hugely complex, capable of so much more than other physical objects are. Given that complexity, sometimes we need teachers to point the way toward a good way to meditate, practice mindfulness, be happier, and other possible goals.

And sometimes we don't need any help at all, being capable of figuring things out by ourselves. It just depends on a person and their situation. Serious mental illness may require a psychiatrist. Merely feeling down may just require a walk in nature. 

I'm not saying that embracing a guru is always the wrong thing to do. This felt absolutely right to me at a certain point in my life. However, I do believe that viewing a guru as divine, as perfect, as beyond criticism, is dangerous. For most of the 35 years I was a part of RSSB, I kept telling myself something that I read in a book by Huston Smith, who heard this from a Zen practitioner.

I have a new koan: I could be wrong. 

Beautiful. I readily admit that I could be wrong about gurus. All I ask is that those who follow a guru say the same thing about the person they're devoted to: I could be wrong. 

Comments

[Arun]

I agree!

[um]

Just read the bibliographies of great artists, scholars and mystics and how they speak about their teachers, mentors, masters, you name it.
The bond between the two, the master and the student, was always, in the mutual love fore something and not for the person that carried that love.

Somebody is born with a talent for music. Nobody can enlarge that talent or change it. but to develop that talent, some work has to be done, both by the teacher and the student.
An natural when the relation with the teacher helps to develop that talent and come to bloom, the student will be filled with gratitude and love for the teacher and the teachers love for his student will develop in the same way,

I have nowhere read in these biographies that the teachers of the world wide renowned artists, scholars and mystics, stood in need of the admiration of their students ...

But, it is psychological understandable, that as the talent of a student comes more and more to fruition, he starts to see his teacher more and more as the embodiment of THAT what he loves so much ...the talent

That said music can be approached from many sides.
The grand division between those that produce music and those that consume music.
The consumers come in many forms forms,. A special group is formed by those that makes a living out of it and even become known as columnists, as experts.

Those that produce music also come in many forms with at the top the composers, the directors and even they are to be divided in several groups

Then there is a red cord through it all ... that of love, of the heart.
Some that go to a concert might produce goosebumps on their body upon losing themselves in what they hear or shed tears and be in an ecstatic mood for hours afterwards and for others, listening to the same music, it can be boring or under the mark as technical performance.

Those that manage to react in such a way natural hold in high esteem those that offered them that pleasure.

It is all a matter of ATTRIBUTION ... attribution of meaning and value [intelect] ... but ...also of LOVE, respect etc [heart]

And yes some have more to give than others and some have nothing to give .

for giving no other human being is responsible but the giver
Giving cannot be outsourced

The walking of an spiritual path or any other path in art, science or other field is done by somebody that can and loves to walk that path.

Not all are willing to look into the mirror and see that they are not willing or capable
and even go that far as to blame others for their own lack

[um]

On my way to make myself a well deserved coffee after what I wrote the memory of grandma popped up.

Against what I wrote I ponderd about a question.
Did my love for grandma, make her words [sound] wise in my ears
or
Did her wise words make me love her.

and
was she only lovable in my eyes and heart and her words wise in my mind?

Like Majun, I cannot help to remember her as a lovable and wise person.

And ..I had the good fortune to come accross several "grand ma's" and in that association with them things developed that are very near and dear to me.

[777]

In the root_body
the one of chakras that entertain our flesh
Charan , on behalf of His Master
made a changement valid for eternity.

It does not matter what we do next
eventually we will be dragged

Often we start cooperating when serendipities begin to occur
Those are physical impossibilities that happen

Just observe

The advantage is that the 100% kal consciousness can t return
perhaps in a new birth but I m not sure

A real RSSB Super Sat Guru has not to do with anything
happening in the 6 layers of creation
S/HE can even restart total creation with a little modification just for one disciple

I still find it hyper 9^9 IQ
to hide in every part of creation
and hyper EQ when Schrôdinger s QE really becomes effectif in an individual
with 7 chakras

777

[Ron E.]

@Brian: - I have a new koan: I could be wrong. “Beautiful. I readily admit that I could be wrong about gurus. All I ask is that those who follow a guru say the same thing about the person they're devoted to: I could be wrong.”

Okay, so the word guru means teacher. It would be more helpful if there was another word that described someone who claims to be God in human form, to be in union with God, is perfect, have mystical powers and is generally worshipped as being someone who has certain truths only he can transmit to people.

The word deluded or charlatan comes to mind, but as these words have different meanings. I’d suggest a term like misleader may cover both words. – in which case, Brian’s generous “I could be wrong” need not apply.

I’m not being down on teachers, of course teachers have a valid role to play in our lives, it’s just that even a teacher of mundane subjects can self-elevate him/herself to being superior to his/her students. It all comes down then perhaps, to a question of honesty, being honest with yourself through self-awareness. But sadly, many spiritual teachers have little comprehension of how they are misleading others and in the case of charlatans, are perhaps aware of their deceptions but just don’t care.

The only ones who can see if a teacher is misleading (or dishonest) is the prospective students themselves. And this is difficult as there is such a longing to have meaning in our lives that we readily invest our lives in someone who looks and sounds the part of the type of person we imagine to have what we need.

Again, it all comes down to honesty – being honest enough with ourselves to be aware that it is we who through our desires, fears and insecurities, that create such teachers, such gurus. But as mentioned, our cravings for some person, perhaps a God or even some superior being from outer space to appear and solve our problems is very endemic for us.
.

[Appreciative Reader]

Two separate aspects to this Guru fetish thing, I think?

-----

One, the supernatural thing. Where RSSB types see the Guru as GIHF, and hence venerate him. Or where Tantric types see the Guru as a regular human, but imbued with siddhas, and other powers like the shaktipat thing, and so revere him. Or where RCC types venerate the Pope, and to a lesser extent the Pope's henchmen, aka priests, as the conduit to God.

That's nonsensical, obviously; but that nonsense goes way beyond just the Guru fetish, and encompasses a whole crazy worldview. Rejecting that kind of Guru fetish is not standalone, but part of a larger rejection of said woo-woo worldview. Makes sense to do that, but easier said than done. The woo-type tends to clasp his pet woo close to his heart, not an easy thing to separate it from him.

-----

And two, the cultural thing, where teachers generally --- and specifically one's especial teacher-mentor/s --- are not just respected but revered and venerated (but without any supernatural angle to it). Parents also, sometimes. More than one culture does that: Indians, the Japanese, the Chinese, Koreans as well.

As far as that latter, well, there's positives and negatives both. The positive would be the additional focus that can sometimes bring about, as um discusses in his comment above. The negative would be the obvious possibility of abuse --- of different kinds, intellectual, professional, financial, physical, sexual --- that that kind of attitude opens up.

Specifically considering this second aspect, is this reverent attitude in sum good or bad? That's a subjective take; and me personally, I think it's dysfunctional, and should be rejected. Goodwill, liking, affection, love even, respect: sure, if they deserve it. But this kind of blind veneration and reverence for parents and teacher-mentors? Absolutely not. I find that kind of thing abhorrent, and would personally neither enjoy being the object of someone's blind slavish reverence and worship, nor offer that kind of blind extreme veneration to another. (Speaking for myself, that is. Others may see this differently, and that's cool, I think, to each their own, as far as this cultural and non-superstitious veneration.)

[um]

@ AR

As long as two people associate with one another in love for the same, they do not see one another as the whole of their attention, love etc etc is focused on the SAME.
They just have no time to see one another.

Stand shoulder to shoulder with somebody.
Doing so both of you are seeing the same
And
You do not see the face of the person next to you

Turn your face
Ask the other person to turn his face
Next moment you SEE one another and it is the beginning of interaction
In doing so you literally and figuratively lose sight of the common focus

Do it and you body will understand what association between guru, teacher, mentor, guide and student is all about.

Both In art, science and spirituality and any other field of mastering a craft at the highest level, the association is based upon that mutual love and focus and the psychological aberrations simply cannot and do not appear ...because ... if it happens the focus on that that has to be mastered gets lost.

In the field of would be participants, the snake oil sellers and those that seek a simple solution that focus is not there and these aberrations do appear and it cannot be prevented even....

Beware of the would-be students, those that have no talent, nothing to give of themselves, empty minded and hearts of stone ..they are a greater problem to humanity than the fwould-be teachers.

They are the ones that sow the doubts, the negativity, the distruction.

[Appreciative Reader]

I appreciate what you are saying, um. But what I'd suggested in my comment was a bit different than what you've said now, on two counts:

First, the focus I referred to is a pedagogic thing. When you're learning anything --- anything at all --- then that additional, sharpened impetus and focus that comes of having this extreme-love-veneration-respect thing going for your teacher. Like I said that extreme veneration is a fundamentally dysfunctional thing, but it can sometimes be put to good pedagogic use.

And further, while I understand what you are saying about being careful about students that are not so much actually desirous of learning the specific craft as simply hanging on, and while I agree that in some limited specific instances that can be a thing: but my own abhorrence for this kind of worship, in either direction, is a more fundamental thing, and a matter of general principle. I think it violates human dignity to surrender one's self regard to that extent. I wouldn't want someone, my hypothetical child for instance, or my hypothetical student, to be so cravenly worshipful of me; and nor would I myself be happy offering such to another. That's over and above the potential for abuse that I spoke of.

Apart from a hierarchically unequal worship, as with a guru, such extreme absorption in another can be a thing in love. It's a rather wonderful thing, that kind of thing, and difficult for someone to understand the sheer depth of such if they haven't experienced it themselves. While appreciating the sheer depth and beauty of such, I think the blind faith thing in general, the surrender of one's critical faculties in favor of another, is not a healthy thing, ever. I know how seductive it can be to receive such worship; but if one's intentions are honest, then one gently disabuses the other of any notions of one's infallibility or perfection. I cannot imagine a truly good God --- a hypothetical God, because I don't think such exists in reality --- would do any less for a devotee; and a God (or Guru) that *demands* such worship cannot but be a rather base entity.

----------

I do grok what you're saying here, um. I appreciate the sentiment, and, like I said, in limited and specific instances I agree with you (albeit not necessarily as a generalization). ...Just, I thought to clarify the somewhat different nuance that I was going for myself.

[Appreciative Reader]

Actually, this might be more detail than anyone here has asked for; but still, while on this topic:

One very sound justification offered, in the guru context, for blind veneration to the exclusion of one's own critical faculties, is the idea that the guru guides one across terrains that one is completely ignorant of oneself. It makes sense, actually, despite the potential for abuse: but it makes sense only if you believe the fantastical worldview that admits of such a justification in the first place.

Like I said in the first part of my original comment, a general repudiation of such blindly trusting veneration (as opposed to a case-by-case repudiation of specifics on grounds of actual abuse, as with GSD) is inextricably enmeshed with a repudiation, on critical grounds, of that wider fantastical worldview itself. Else the search for the perfect master will continue, as evidenced by "Sound Chaser" in the other thread. (No disrespect intended, I was that person myself once upon a time.)

[Aam]

@Ron
The word is "Satguru" (True guru) vs "guru.

[um]

@ AR

Let me cheer up things with an anecdote.

After listening to an Indian classical concert with one of the female members of the family, I was waiting for the cloakroom lady [If that is the correct translation] to hand over our coats,when all of an sudden my companion, grabbed my coat from the counter and helped me to put it on in the same way as in older days men would do so for their ladies.

What then happened makes me laugh even to day remembering the scene.

In those high days of anti-authority movement such an behavior by a young lady was ..you name it ...let us just say and use a neutral term ..unacceptable.

You should have seen the change of expression on the faces of those standing nearby.
The disgust, the anger anger and what not more dripped from their eyes and faces.

There and then I rejoice in character and psychological insight in humans from my young companion. She never helped me to put on a coat before, nor did she after wards. It had nothing to do with me or her ..it was something between her and the public; she created a psychological trap

They all made themselves seen for what they were, prone to and captive of their own prejudices. Having no idea what authority in reality is

Hahaha ..I remember even to day her body language and her face when she helped me to put on my coat. ..she is a great mental warrior...we are all proud of her.

[Appreciative Reader]

"@ AR

Let me cheer up things with an anecdote."

Haha, yes, I appreciate the thought, um.

And I enjoyed your story. More power to your relative for standing up to those asinine patriarchal norms, back when it wasn't easy to do that --- not that it is necessarily a very easy thing even today. And good of you to stand by her and with her.

Absolutely, patriarchy's a horrible, toxic thing.

[No Kool-Aid]

Brian, your blogs are always good for a laugh. When your mental gymnastics come to an end, when your alloted breaths are over, Charan Singh will meet you at the time of death. Whether you like it or not.

[manjit]

No Kool-Aid wrote "Charan Singh will meet you at the time of death. Whether you like it or not."

Jesus that sounds sinister. Pretty demonic actually.

But anyway, thanks for the laughs. Always nice to read peoples scary bedtime stories.

[777]

Manjit
"Pretty demotic"

Yes it is

A real GIHF SatGuru did make a fundamental change in your chakra_body, QE like made changes in the 6th & 7th
where the previous demons cannot come
SO from the moment on that you g"agreed" HE IS the total astral frequency and all above
Myself found a little bit strange that every new birth one has to be instructed again
but this is like after a destructive moto accident One has to relearn everything

Initiations from Charan should remember how they felt at that moment
If you remind a nano particle of Love , . . . THAT will do and U have no say.
You can postpone yes ? . . . you can

I told about our previous lives here in this blog

777

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO1-NOfViro
This nice about 3000 NDEs
saying it is now totally accepted in hospitals
PS
Again GIHF which is every Soul looks from the 7th Heaven_Fraquency standpoint

[um]

@777

As I wrote to Manjit, the land of palestine, the land of milk and honey, was given to an elder, and patriarch of an tribe in search for land. I cannot stress enough to just that ONE person and nobody else. If there was, is a power outside and beyond that one person, it failed to inform all other people in the world. so what we have are the words of just ONE person .. ONE PERSON ...ONE PERSON ..and ..millions of people believing what he said ...and 777 .. they all believe him for their own SELFISH reasons.

The meagerness of mystics, the narrative that they bring into the world is too just given to them alone.

There has never been an God or something else that presented to me and others go and be a follower of this or that person.

The mind is a powerful instrument and even mystics cannot escape it

You see from within the narrative of santmat it is easy why the Inuit in Alaska are not meant to be satsangi's in this life time but from the world of the Inuit the narrative of sant mat has no reality at all. You can expand that to all other worldviews and spiritual traditions of the world ..they are all regional ... not global

The things here what you relate have only meaning for you and those that want to believe you ..there is no power beyond you that is informing the rest of the world that what you wrote has anything to do with reality

THAT ..777 .. is why all mystics say when this or that miracle occurs ... belessed are those that believe. Faqir chand has explained how far that believing goes.

And no doubt those that have that inborn power tpo believe are indeed blessed.
and rejoice in it as you do

[Jim Sutherland]

@Um,….AI disagrees with you. It was promised to a Man AND HIS DESCENDENTS.

Who was The Land of Palastine promised to, in the Bible?
In the Bible, the Land of Palestine, also referred to as the Promised Land, was promised to Abraham and his descendants. This promise is articulated in several passages:

Genesis 12:7 - "The Lord appeared to Abram and said, 'To your offspring I will give this land.' So he built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him."
Genesis 15:18 - "On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, 'To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates.'"
Genesis 24:7 - "The Lord, the God of heaven, who brought me out of my father's household and my native land and who spoke to me and promised me on oath, saying, 'To your offspring I will give this land,'—he will send his angel before you so that you can get a wife for my son from there."
The scope of this land is often described in detail, encompassing various regions:

The territory was bounded on the east by the river Euphrates, on the west by the Mediterranean Sea, on the north by the "entrance of Hamath," and on the south by the "river of Egypt" (Genesis 15:18; Numbers 34:1).
This land included areas that became the kingdoms of David and Solomon, stretching from the Mediterranean to beyond the Jordan River.
This promise has been a foundational element in the religious and historical narrative of the Israelites, symbolizing a divine covenant and the fulfillment of God's word.

FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS YOU MIGHT CONSIDER:
What is the significance of the Promised Land in different religious traditions?
How does the concept of the Promised Land influence modern religious and geopolitical contexts?
What are the spiritual lessons that can be drawn from the biblical story of the Promised Land?
How is the concept of a covenant significant in spiritual and religious practices?
NEXT STEPS:
Meditate on the nature of promises and covenants in your life. What personal commitments or spiritual covenants feel most sacred to you?
Inquire into the historical and spiritual context of the Promised Land. How do various traditions interpret and value this concept?
Explore texts and teachings from different religious perspectives to gain a deeper understanding of the Promised Land's significance.
Reflect on how the idea of a "promised" or sacred space influences your spiritual journey and personal growth.

[Jim Sutherland]

More follow up……

Who could be considered the present Decendents of Abraham?

The descendants of Abraham can be traced through several lineages, each with significant historical and spiritual implications. Let's explore this in greater detail:

Ishmael:

Biblical Reference: Ishmael was Abraham’s first son, born to Hagar, Sarah’s Egyptian maidservant.
Descendants: Traditionally, many Arab peoples trace their lineage back to Ishmael. The Quran also acknowledges Ishmael as an ancestor of important Arab tribes and a prophet.
Isaac:

Biblical Reference: Isaac was Abraham’s son through his wife Sarah and is considered the child of promise.
Descendants:
Jacob (Israel): Isaac’s son Jacob, later renamed Israel, fathered the twelve tribes of Israel. The Jewish people are traditionally considered descendants of Jacob’s twelve sons.
Esau (Edomites): Isaac’s son Esau is considered the ancestor of the Edomites. Historical records of the Edomites fade over time, but they played a significant role in the ancient Near East.
Other Lineages:

Abraham also had other children with Keturah, his second wife after Sarah’s death. Their descendants include various tribes that settled in different regions.
MODERN PERSPECTIVES:
Jewish People:

Primarily trace their lineage through Isaac and Jacob. The Jewish diaspora has spread globally, with significant populations in Israel, the United States, and other countries.
Arab Peoples:

Many Arab tribes and peoples see themselves as descendants of Ishmael. This includes numerous groups across the Middle East and North Africa.
Christian and Islamic Views:

Christianity and Islam both honor Abraham as a patriarch. Christians see Jesus as a spiritual descendant of Abraham. Muslims regard Abraham (Ibrahim) highly and trace their religious heritage through his lineage, particularly through Ishmael.
CONTROVERSIAL AND ESOTERIC VIEWS:
Alternative Lineages: Some esoteric traditions suggest alternative lineages and interpretations, often blending historical and mystical perspectives.
Genetic Studies: Modern genetic studies have tried to trace lineage but often find that historical migrations and intermarriages complicate pure lineage claims.
POINTS OF INQUIRY AND REFLECTION:
The promise of the land and the lineage of Abraham invites deep reflection on the nature of divine promises and human history.
Consider how different spiritual traditions interpret Abraham’s legacy and how these interpretations shape their worldviews.
Reflect on how modern identity and ancient lineage interact in shaping individual and collective identities today.
FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS:
How do different religious traditions interpret the promises made to Abraham regarding his descendants?
What significance do the descendants of Abraham hold in contemporary religious and geopolitical contexts?
How might one explore the spiritual lineage of Abraham within their own personal or communal spiritual practice?
What are the implications of genetic and historical studies on our understanding of Abrahamic lineages?
ACTIONABLE STEPS:
Study Sacred Texts: Delve deeper into the Bible, the Quran, and other religious texts that discuss Abraham and his descendants.
Explore Religious Traditions: Engage with Jewish, Christian, and Islamic teachings to understand diverse perspectives on Abraham.
Meditate and Reflect: Spend time in meditation or contemplation on the spiritual lessons from Abraham’s story.
Engage in Dialogue: Participate in interfaith dialogues to gain a broader understanding of how different communities view Abraham’s legacy.
This exploration can provide a richer understanding of how Abraham’s story continues to influence and inspire diverse spiritual paths.

[um]

@ Jim Sutherland

Yes I do believe that there might have been a man by the name of Abraham and that he had an experience as described in the bible.

That saiu if there was a power beyond that person, he failed to inform the rest of the world, in the way as he informed Abraham.

[um]

@ Jim Sutherland

Of course ... if somebody wants to believe the narrative[s] of that one patriarch, live that narrative, he or she is well advised to read and act upon your words.

Due to the globalization of information, all cultures face the problem of accepting that THEIR universal message, worldview, was in fact, regional.

And as far as I understand that is a bitter and difficult pill to swallow for most people. as their existence has it roots in it.

So for the time being and the near future we will see that there are groups that cannot accept this simple fact and will fight others and try to convince others that THEIR regional narrative was the sole narrative for the whole world. ..rivers of blood will be created in that pursuit.....IS etc do it in a brutal way but others do so or will do so but in a more "civilized" way.

.I do for example understand the psychological justification for Hamaz to launch its attack as well as the motives of The Israel government to retaliate. But I also know that other ways could have been taken to address the problems. But that is all meaningless for those that have lost their lives, and house that mourn an near and dear ..they all lost their lives without their consent and knowledge.

[Jim Sutherland]

Provide other sources than the Bible that Abraham ever historically existed?
The historical existence of Abraham is a subject of much debate among scholars and historians. While the Bible is the primary source that discusses Abraham's life, there are some other sources and lines of evidence that can be considered, though they are often indirect or controversial. Here are a few:

ANCIENT TEXTS AND HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS
Josephus:

The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, in his works such as "Antiquities of the Jews," provides accounts of Abraham. Josephus was writing in the first century CE and relied heavily on Jewish scriptures and traditions, making his accounts secondary rather than contemporary.
Quran:

The Islamic holy text, the Quran, mentions Abraham (Ibrahim) numerous times. While the Quran was written centuries after Abraham would have lived, it does reflect the continuation of his story within the Abrahamic religious tradition.
ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE
Mari Tablets:

Discovered in the ancient city of Mari in modern-day Syria, these tablets date back to around 1800 BCE. They reference a group of people called the Habiru, which some scholars suggest could be linked to the Hebrews. However, this connection is speculative and not universally accepted.
Ebla Tablets:

Found in the ancient city of Ebla in modern-day Syria, these tablets date to the third millennium BCE. Some names found in these tablets bear similarities to biblical names, including a name that resembles "Abraham." Again, the connection is tenuous and debated.
SCHOLARLY INTERPRETATIONS
Historical Analyses:

Scholars like Thomas L. Thompson and John Van Seters have critically examined the patriarchal narratives, including that of Abraham. They argue that these stories are more likely to be literary constructions from later periods rather than historical accounts. Thompson's "The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives" is a key work in this field.
The Amarna Letters:

Correspondence found in Egypt dating to the 14th century BCE, these letters mention groups of people and regional dynamics that some scholars believe could be contextually relevant to the time and movements associated with Abraham. However, there is no direct mention of Abraham himself.
ORAL TRADITIONS AND LEGENDS
Midrash and Talmud:
Jewish oral traditions and later writings, such as the Midrash and Talmud, provide extensive narratives about Abraham. These are religious texts rather than historical documents, but they contribute to the broader cultural memory of Abraham.
INDIRECT EVIDENCE AND THEORIES
Cultural and Tribal Practices:
Some scholars look at the practices and lifestyles described in the Abrahamic narratives and compare them with what is known about ancient nomadic tribes. These comparisons can offer contextual clues but do not serve as direct evidence of Abraham's existence.
CONCLUSION
While there is no direct, contemporary evidence outside the Bible that conclusively proves Abraham's historical existence, these sources and considerations offer a broader context for understanding the figure of Abraham within ancient Near Eastern history and tradition.

FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS
What are the major arguments for and against the historicity of Abraham?
How do the differing religious traditions view Abraham, and what are the implications for historical research?
What are some of the major archaeological discoveries that provide context for the time period traditionally associated with Abraham?
How do modern scholars approach the study of biblical patriarchs from a historical-critical perspective?
ACTIONABLE NEXT STEPS
Delve into the works of scholars like Thomas L. Thompson and John Van Seters for critical perspectives on the patriarchal narratives.
Explore the Mari and Ebla tablets to understand the broader historical context of the ancient Near East.
Read Josephus’s "Antiquities of the Jews" for additional historical perspectives within the Jewish tradition.
Engage with interfaith dialogues to understand how different traditions interpret the figure of Abraham.

[um]

@ Jim Sutherland

If your reaction was directed at me, please do understand that I have no doubts with regard to what historians etc have to tell. Even without them I am quite willing to accept what is in so called holy books as more or less historical true. I am also willing to try to understand what they are pointing at

Again I have no problem whatsoever with the story related to Abraham etc as a person nor what is relate to them.

What I write about is related to ..HOW ..humans, myself included, deal with these facts.

The very fact that tAbraham had these experiences does not say that he "created them" nor that somebody else created them ..he had them.

Then comes the moment that he and people after him have to attribute meaning and value to them.

For him and those that believe him, the messenger of god spoke to him
for me he had that experience . and I cannot agree with the conclusions people come up with that believe in him.

Again just ponder over what I wrote before

IF there is an power beyond Abraham that made a deal with Abraham, a deal, that has consequences for ALL of us human beings and not only Abraham and his tribe in search for land ....and if there is that power .. it forget the rest of us to inform them about that deal..

These days people of the settlements come on TV and tell smilingly that it doesn't matter what happens as god has given them the whole of Palestine. They are entitled to believe it but I tell them that the same god that created them and the Palestinians forget to inform the Palestinians that he gave the land to them and they are his chosen people ..only THEY know it and those that want to believe that story ..nobody else.

[um]

@ Jim Sutherland

If a father wants to have one of his children be treated in a special way, in order to prevent misery later between the children, he goes to an notary at least and informs all his other children..

In the case of Abraham ..we have only the word of Abraham and why for havens sake would anybody believe him on his word, while the outcome is that they are losing?

It is that simple Jim.
No need for historical and or theological exegeses.

The problems in the middle east could be solve tomorrow by means of speaking through an international court as is one in the Hague that deals with land rights issues if the religious load was lifted

[Jim Sutherland]

@Um,…It was directed at you, just more food for thought, regarding your original post about god only giving the Promised Land to One person only. I agree with your conclusion, by the way.

Its like in the New Testement, where Jesus told THE ELEVEN, to go out and preach the Good News, not the millions of present Preachers now, and after he died.

Same as with Moses. And all the Bible stories about him. I spent a week about 8 years ago, traveling Egypt from Cairo to Alexander, by Van, Air, in addion to a cruise up the Nile ending where the original so called Black skinned Egyptians entered Egypt. Our Guide was a 50 year old native Egyption Muslim, born and raised in Cairo. He was Certified as a Guide, and had 2 Master’s Degrees, …one in Archeology, and the other in Egyptology. He never spun any of our questions asked to appease us. We were a private group of only 4 others besides my Wife and I, other than a Security Guard, sporting a conceiled Uzzi under his Jacket, who was with us every where we traveled. He was assigned to us by the Egyptian Dept. of Interior.

With the above Commentary, in all our travels, I could not find one single reference that Moses, or Hebrews ever living as slaves in Egypt, or escapt4d by the parting of the Red Sea, or any references to ANY of the Old Testement Bible stories being true.

Egyptians as a whole, ignore such Bible fables.

So, makes one wonder , the validity of most of the Orthodox Jewish Religion.

[777]

ALL

Brian raised a point
"If you open also : "PERHAPS I M WRONG"

How can an initiated before S/he experiences to be the 432Hz Sound him / herself
experiences at the same time TO BE CHARAN, literally, Tangleby
Radiant form seen is what THE SAY ;

YOU ARE THAT, NOT A DROP
YOU ARE ALL THAT EXISTS

AND A SAT SUPER HYPER SAT GURU MAKES IT HAPPENING

CHEERS JIM

777

[Um]

@777
Wat i want to say sounds better in Dutch so .... ; er is werkelijk geen touw aan vast te knopen, aan wat je schreef.

[777@]

Bria,n vroeg, stelde dat hij wil wel twijfelen als wij ook
bereid zijn dat te doen

Dat is het zelfde als
wanneer iemand met vliegangst
aan de andere passagiers voorstelt
om een beetje vliegangst te hebben

Wat men in Sant Mat uitdrukt als
"het zien van de stralende meester inside"
is een voorzichtig manier
om uit te leggen
dat de leerling de Sant Sat Guru wordt, . . . hélemaal
plus dat gij de Shabd Frequency is, . . . hélémaal omdat de Guru dat ook is

Dit pad is geen yoga
Er valt niets te bereiken
Je kan er alleen maar om vragen
gewoon in n kerk, moskee, tempel of in de tram, de WC
Vragen om de liefde zoals jij voelt voor je vriend x 9^9^9
( ^= tot de macht van)

en dit is natuurlijk ook niet duidelijk

777
gé

[777]

I cannot imagine a truly good God --- a hypothetical God, because I don't think such exists in reality --- would do any less for a devotee; and a God (or Guru) that *demands* . . . . .

AR
Good argument
wexcept when in reality
U ARE and WAS this GOD already in voluntary deep amnesia

It s just a queste of recognising , remembering; revelation

And the beauty is that U see all this in any other Soul
all of Creation at the same time

[um]

@ 777

Thank you for taking the trouble.
Other readers for give us this intermezzo in another language.

[777]

Jim about exegesis

They must believe the Old Testament
to remain the choose n peoiple

While the reference is
Those Compassionated ( acc to Melchisadek and. JapJI ) that Hear The 432Hz Frequency are chosen
Chosen in terms of TIME, like : ' a little earlier"

[Jim Sutherland]

@Um,……” It is that simple Jim.
No need for historical and or theological exegeses.

The problems in the middle east could be solve tomorrow by means of speaking through an international court as is one in the Hague that deals with land rights issues if the religious load was lifted“

I have no doubt, that if my Country, the U.S. would stop supporting Israel with money, and military equipment, the problem would be solved rather quickly. But Fundamentalist Christians who have been groomed and ingrained with the 2nd Coming of Jesus, which won’t happen until The Battle of Armageddon , and are tethered to Israel, and this present on going genocide. But even worse, many Christians expect to be Raptured, which means being beamed up to meet Jesus in the Clouds, just before the Battle of Armageddon takes place, which is looking like it could happen any day now, if Iran fully retaliates against Israel, and the U.S. responds against Iran .

[um]

@ Jim Sutherlands

I is strange to realize that the fate of humanity is in the hand of individuals, in their believes etc. Not only in the hands of those that govern a country but also, maybe even more, in the hands of common people.

These kind elderly couple that was on our TV a couple of days ago just expressed their dream like the reverent M.L. King .. with their longing for a biblical Israel, they keep the fire alive, that will lead to bloodshed., without knowing or even consciously willing it.

It is like trowing something out of the car, some little thing ..without th intention of polluting the environment what it actually does as we are with millions and millions reasoning in the same way.

It helps that there is coffee and the conviction that he that has no power to create has no power to sustain let alone destroy. ..humans.

[Aam]

RSSB has a new guru Jasdeep Singh Gill, cousin of GSD.
It is all over India news outlets.

[Aam]

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/amritsar/jasdeep-singh-gill-named-new-head-of-radha-soami-satsang-beas/

[Sage]

Breaking news! Breaking news!

https://m.economictimes.com/news/india/who-is-jasdeep-singh-gill-radha-soami-satsang-beas-new-head-and-former-cipla-cso/articleshow/112991060.cms