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August 24, 2024

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I do wonder why we take up meditation and what is the drive to experience altered states of consciousness. As my take on meditation simply means being present here and now does it really need so many hours (or years), so many books and so many teachers to point out that this, right now is all there is? We could all live this actual present moment – which could also be called ‘just getting on with life’.

Maybe the difficulty is we can’t believe it is so simple, or perhaps we don’t want to believe it to be so simple. We do like our escapes and mysteries, they contain hopes and promises that if we work hard at them, we can break through to realities that elevate us above the everyday world of birth, pain and death. Religions and other belief systems proliferate on such fears and desires.

Yes, it is a core aspect of our survival processes to improve our lives, to avoid pain and death and to pursue means to continue and procreate. But thought has taken it to another level, by overlaying reality with concepts and beliefs which I believe/think that where there is avoidance of reality there is inevitable suffering, separation, doubt and confusion.

Excuse my rant, but I see such things as pursuing jhanas as just another diversion that takes us away from getting on with life as it just is.

@ Ron

What would you do when you had an experience as is described by mystics?
Or what would you do if some of those near and dear to you would have also one and tell you that you can have such an experience also?

That is how I believe it came into the world.

Years ago I came across a booklet about an man with an incurable diseases that turned his back upon medicine and found a cure for him selves. Having cured him selves with eating grapes, he was convinced that all others could cure themselves if they only ate grapes.

An THAT is what happens with all others that say to the world ..do as I do and you will end your problem as I did.

My point is that I nobody had ever told me about god, or mysticism or even most things \\\\i know, have been conditioned with, would not be around in my mind.

We all have to deal with what happens to us, with our body, character etc etc .. and ..of course all sorts of so called inner experiences that occur to us spontaneous or due to the manipulation oi the body by means of plants and drugs or meditation.

It seems that all people that are trained to be a participant in a cultural domain, forget during that education and preparation for living in such an culture that they are alone and that their cultural, their social goal, purpose of life might be something complete different from their natural purpose, if any, that makes them part of this mysterious world....as mysterious as the crow, or the tree.

I recently picked up a number of used magazines from the library. Atheist magazines. Magazines like Skeptical Inquirer and Free Inquiry. They make for interesting reading whilst I'm occupied on the toilet.

I'm interested in the arguments for why people say they're atheists. One contributor writes that she'd "grown up with the idea of a god watching me and my every move, actively judging whether I was worthy of Heaven or deserving Hell. Totally normal and cool. Not."

I understand her view and think it's reasonable. Or to be more precise, I think it's entirely reasonable to reject the idea of a Supreme Being that's minutely judging my every action and thought to see whether it merits Elysian reward or eternal fire. Many reasons for rejecting that, perhaps the biggest is that it's an objectively ludicrous metaphysical concept.

And yet, even hardcore atheists still believe in this concept. They just won't admit it.

Here's another example to illustrate what I mean: I'm reading a book about Tibetan Buddhism as taught by the Dalai Lama. The Lama tells us that there is no God, but somehow the universe created itself. And the no-God universe didn't just create matter, it created life and consciousness. The no-God universe didn't stop there. It not only created matter, life, and consciousness but also, completely outside this material creation, the universe created a metaphysical "mind system" of rewards and punishments, of which every sentient being is a part.

In other words, the teachings of atheist Buddhism hold that there is a no-God watching our ever move and judging us whether we deserve Heaven or Hell. Or Nirvana or Samsara, or whatever fancy words one wants to use. In other words, theistic religion and atheistic Buddhism essentially teach the same damn thing: Everyone is in an existential predicament of a moral universe.

Yes, the universe is moral. Whether by God or by itself, the universe is built with a moral foundation. Take it up with the Dalai Lama if you disagree. Or if you as an atheist disagree, come up with an argument for why a human's place in the universe is morally null.

Don't bother searching for that argument in the atheist magazines. I looked, and it's not there. What you find instead are lots of arguments from atheists on how atheism is sufficient to supply the morality that humanity needs. But this begs the question, why does humanity need morality if, as atheists try to assure us, there is no such thing as morality?

And so, while there's no doubt that world religion has gotten a whole lot of things wrong, it's evident that it didn't get morality wrong. Morality is hard-baked into this universe. Pretend it's not there and one is only kidding himself.

This leads us to the topic of jhanas and how to get em. Buddhism teaches that morality is the 1st step and the most essential step for accessing these higher mind states. If the mind is obsessing over anger, or lust, or greed, or other fetters, then jhana gonna be sitting there a long time waiting for bliss to come. Blame God or the universe, that's just the way it is.

Ron, here's how I see meditation. Mindfulness is all about seeing reality as it is. That's your goal also, which I agree with. Like you said, concepts can interfere with this. So when Brasington says that the key to concentration is being Here, Now, that's a great reminder for how I should live my life as much as possible.

As I noted in this post I see meditation as mental exercise akin to physical exercise. Both make us more fit to handle what life throws at us, the good and the bad. Just as our body doesn't work as well when we're not mentally fit, our psyche doesn't work as well when we're not mentally fit.

I'm not looking for mystical supernatural states of being when I meditate. I'm focused on what is here and now. My breath. My perceptions. My thoughts and feelings. This is coming closer to reality as it is.

@ Sant64

>> Morality is hard-baked into this universe

Moralty, like love, god etc has little meaning and use in my life.

Point at something and I will look over your shoulders where you point at.

@um. "What would you do when you had an experience as is described by mystics?"

Well um, I just treated them as the result of whatever practice I was engaged in at the time - nice, interesting, but nothing special. Then let them go.

@ Ron. E.

Alright ..that is how I look upon the experiences that have been my share but I can imagine, based upon the biographies of well known mystics, prophets and the like, that there are experiences which one cannot let go of.

To make it little vague:
Abraham has had that experience that is described, based upon what het said, that a messenger of god or even god himself appeared to him. Or like the story of moses being visited by the divine handing over the stone tablets.They could have acted as you write and I do understand your words ...and go on with live as usual.

I have the feeling that such a thing is impossible and with all the consequences as written down in history

ALTHOUGH these elders had these experiences they were not able to handle them as something of their own [mind] and were forced to act upon them ..AS IF ...everybody else would know them to be true, having been informed as well .. what was and is not the case.

I hope I could make it clear what "bothers" me

I also wonder why it is that people become spiritual teachers. The usual reason is out of compassion though often the act of compassion can carry a lot of ‘me’. The ‘me’/’self’ who has stumbled or realised something and wants to communicate that perhaps in an attempt or need to have people around to verify his/her experience.

Compassion and love are often ambiguous terms meaning different things to different people. All I can say is that where one sees the interconnectedness of life, of us and everything about us then what naturally emerges from that is a sort of gratefulness, a humility – love if you like – from where appropriate action arises.

And um; yes, I can see that there are experiences that cannot be let go of, though I would have to wonder why and would suspect that there maybe an ego/self maintaining aspect as to why they cannot let go; after all, life being a flow, a process, then all that is being held onto is the dead past, maintained by memory (thought).

Perhaps what bothers you (also me and lots of others) is that we are somewhat conditioned to want these people and their amazing stories/teachings to be true to give ourselves, or rather our conceptually created self’s some sort of credibility, security and meaning.

@ Ron E.

>> And um; yes, I can see that there are experiences that cannot be let go of, though I would have to wonder why <<

In the video, linked here by 777, 25 aug. 10:41 AM the man tries to explain how he cannot get rid of the NDE and how he manages to live, in two worlds, so to say, at the same time.

If you didn't have a cup of tea and listen to the man's tale.. With a background of farming you will hear an down to earth story, like a relative sharing his holidays experiences with you.

"An important principle is to not crave the jhanas."


Indeed.


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"Ayya offered a simile that you might find helpful. (...) Suppose you want to drive from your home to, for example, a retreat center many hours away. (...) In order to use the directions properly, you don't focus on the destination; you determine where you currently are and what you'll need to do next when you arrive at the place where you change from what you are doing now to something new. (...) This is exactly how to approach learning the jhanas. Gain an understanding of the directions."


Small disagreement, if I may. More by way of a nitpick than anything else, while agreeing with his actual point.

You're not actually driving from A to B. Those are not actually directions. I'd called the jhanas milestones in my comment in the other thread, but, now that I think over it, jhanas aren't that, at all.

The idea is to simply observe all feelings and sensations (or thoughts, if it's that kind of Vipassana). No matter how pleasant, no matter how unpleasant; no matter how dramatic, no matter how utterly mundane: it's all the same, and all you do is observe it, consciously and with awareness. You most certainly don't *seek* jhanas. Nor do you even expressly look out out for them. And nor is their arising or not arising any sign of your progress or otherwise. ...But if in the course of your practice they happen to arise spontaneously, then there's enough material and guidance there for you to know what they are, and how to deal with them. Should they arise, they're neither cause for celebration, nor something to be held on to; they're to be "let go of", same as an itch in your crotch.

That removal of tanha, that in-your-bones growing-beyond off of all longing and aversion, is the entire point of Buddhistic (Theravada) meditation, both in theory and as actually taught and practiced.


(There's a small but important nuance there that I'm trying to highlight: the difference between not hankering after jhanas as a means of actually arriving at jhanas, and actually not hankering after them and therefore not caring to arrive at them in the first place --- which AIUI is the actual point of [Theravada] Buddhistic meditation, as actually taught and practiced.)

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