Blind faith is dangerous: 120 devotees of India "godman" killed in stampede

India has a well-deserved reputation for being a hotbed of religious fervor. I'd call that fanaticism, but I'm trying to be fair to India, since that country also is responsible for some of the most sophisticated faiths in the world.

But when I heard about an estimated 120 devotees dying in a stampede after a popular Hindu preacher, Narayan Sakar Hari, had finished his talk ("satsang"), it was the negative side of religiosity that struck my atheist sensibility.

Sure, the story in our local newspaper said:

About 250,000 people gathered for Tuesday’s event in the Hathras district of Uttar Pradesh state, about 125 miles from the Indian capital, New Delhi, despite permission being granted only for 80,000, according to an initial police report.

So part of the problem was that way too many worshippers were crammed into the meeting location. However, several stories about this tragedy cited a decidedly bizarre reason for the stampede.

A NPR story says:

According to a police complaint filed on Tuesday night, the organizers had sought permission for 80,000 people to attend but around 250,000 turned up at the venue.

"As the preacher left in his car, many rushed to collect dust rising from the path of the vehicle," a religious practice among some Hindus. "Some of those bent over got crushed by the large crowd exiting the venue," the complaint said.

It adds that the event organizers tried to destroy evidence of the stampede by throwing victims' clothes and footwear into neighboring fields.

A Reuters story also mentions dust:

The preacher at the gathering, Suraj Pal Singh, also known as 'Bhole Baba', said in a statement that the stampede was caused by "some anti-social elements" after the event concluded, without elaborating.

 

Police said they were trying to ascertain the whereabouts of the preacher. A group of devotees had organised the event, according to a poster at the site.

 

The preacher's lawyer, A.P. Singh, said Baba had never asked anyone to touch his feet nor did he give anyone the dust touched by his feet, referring to reports in local media which cited these as reasons for the devotees running towards him.

Well, here's an even better suggestion for Baba, the preacher. Tell your devotees that there's nothing miraculous about the dust either stirred up by your car or by your feet. Of course, if you did that, likely your status as a goodman would take a hit. 

Another Reuters story about Baba says:

A massive gathering addressed by an Indian policeman-turned-preacher, considered an incarnation of God by his followers, turned horribly wrong on Tuesday, as at least 121 people, mostly women and children, died in a stampede.

 

"Bhole Baba", or the Innocent Elder, is the sobriquet of a self-styled godman who was a police constable before he turned to spirituality and became a preacher. Originally Suraj Pal Singh, he later changed his name to Narayan Sakar Hari. He is currently untraceable, and police in India's northern state of Uttar Pradesh, where Tuesday's tragedy occurred, said they were still trying to trace him.

A Washington Post story explains the meaning of the name the once-policeman changed his to.

The event was hosted by a local preacher named Narayan Sakar Hari, whose name translates to god incarnate. In videos from past congregations, he is seen on a thronelike seat wearing a suit and tie, explaining his ostensibly miraculous powers.

Well, his miraculous powers obviously didn't extend to saving the lives of 120 of his devotees. But I suspect this won't matter to those who believe he truly is god incarnate. The deaths of those people argue otherwise.

People mourn next to the bodies of victims of a stampede outside a hospital in Hathras district in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh, India, on Tuesday. (Reuters)

 

Comments

[AA]

You can call them superstitious. You can call them blind devotees. You can call them illiterate ignorant. But actually their problems are so dangerous and huge that there is no one to solve them. When there is disappointment everywhere, then the solution is seen only in miracles.

All these spiritual gurus are the same, there is no difference between them. Their method of working is the same. They only serve their own interests by making poor and innocent people their mental slaves.

[um]

@ AA

One of the youngsters in our family was as a child "Threatened" by his friend in this way:
" If you do not eat these hot-dogs with me, I will end our friendship"
When I was informed about the incident I asked his friend to come and see me.

When he came I explained him that if he would have been born in my family he would have been a vegetarian like the rest of us and vise versa. ...both of you just act in obedience to the guidelines of your parents.

Then I warned him to never again, to emotional blackmail other people.

So all humans , probably all sentient beings, are faced with their fate as it presents itself to them.

If the people in the crowed would have had YOUR fate to deal with, they might probably act, think and feel like YOU do ...THEIR wealth is their FAITH.

I am not interested in gurus doing this and that,.but admire the power of their faith that make their faces shine. and give them the power to go through the harshness of their fate

[um]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Parade_disaster#:~:text=On%2024%20July%202010%2C%20a,652%20people%20were%20injured.

Was this disaster caused by "love"???

We were instructed in family ..whenever in a closed space with many people and somebody shouts ..FIRE ...and people start to panic ...FIRST, put yourself against the closest wall, so that you will not fall and trampled to death.

[Ron E.]

India is said to be the most religious country in the world. Many reasons define the importance of religion in India. It is embedded in the culture, the caste system, politics and family life. It is also said that religion plays an important part in countries where there is a large degree of poverty, fewer health and education resources and generally poorer. It would stand to reason that anyone elevating themselves to God-like status would have a great deal of influence over those looking for a better life – perhaps more so in a next life.

Basically, it is part of the human psyche to aspire to a life that has less suffering and depending on whether one lives in a country that offers apparent freedom from suffering via wealth and position or a country that cannot offer material riches and benefits but offers instead spiritual paths and leaders that promise less suffering.

We are all looking for that something extra, whether it is wealth, the big car and house, improving standards of living, spiritual certainties or generally, answers to life’s seeming mysteries. Ironically, such pursuits, although quite natural, can incorporate the very things (e.g. suffering) that often thwart our attempts and aspirations. I’m thinking of the richer western countries that are awash with increasing mental health problems, discontent, uprisings and lately, a move toward dictatorial leadership – the equivalent to India’s Godmen perhaps?

[um]

Things, facts, events ...are just what they are,
seldom what they look like,
let alone how they are made seen by well and ill willing people.

What value and meaning people attribute to things, facts, events is all THEIRS and what they think to experience is nothing but their own mental projection.

That projectionj tells who THEY are, how THEY appreciate the world and does not give abny clue about the world at all.

There for the lost key, if one wants to call it, is found within the house and not in the light of the street.

The elders of humanity, none execpt in whatever culture, stated for that reason ... If you want to know all and everything, that FIRST know yourself.

Research your own mind and its contents first .. it is a natural law

[um]

@ Ron E.

There is however an difference in attitude ...the masses in India and people elsewhere that face the same circumstances, do not lean on others for support ... their history has taught them that they are on their own ..not even the gods they worship will help them. ... that sounds contra-dictionary but it is not .... it has made them strong mentally and resilient so much so that you can have a smile in the most problematic situations I have seen in India.

Christianity has made people weak and depended on others .. whoever these others are. ...OTHERS hare at fault ... OTHERS have to help them and THAT is the very reason why they support their political leaders ...Christianity has created an mentality of SINNERS ....the western culture is CHRISTIAN ... it doesn';t mater if a person presents himself as atheist ... mentally he is a christian.

They are made to be obedient to authorities.

Have some coffee with protestants and you will soon get it. and as extra delve into the way how Dutch, german and British have developed and used to create what the romans called ..PLEBS

[um]

and RON

hahahaha .. do not forget the FOUNDING FATHERS of the USA and how how their Christian believes, PROTESTANT orthodox, for which they were willing to kill and be killed, has influenced the USA even to the very day.

Have a look at the american BIBLE Belt. and you will understand their political choices.

[AA]

One thing must be understood that nothing comes for free in this world. If someone is giving you something for free, you must be extra cautious.

This is also true in the case of knowledge. Only self-acquired knowledge can really do you any good. Free knowledge given to you by spiritual gurus, which has no means of verifying its authenticity, and which you have accepted without verifying it, comes with the trap of slavery.

[AA]

If all spiritual gurus call themselves really true and honest then they should put up such boards outside all their religious places and religious institutions.

Legal disclaimer:
We do not have any proof regarding the truth of our spiritual beliefs, convictions and things written in religious scriptures. We do not even have any proof regarding the existence of God. Hence we do not make any claim regarding the truth of all these in any way. Believing or not believing in these beliefs is your personal belief. We will not be responsible for any profit or loss you incur due to this.

[um]

@AA

Nothing a person ingests goes without effects being offered for free or otherwise... be it food, medicine, or mental food..

And Doctor there very fact that your patients pay you, is no grantee that you are a good doctor or that your advice, treatment will do anybody good.

So such a legal disclaimer should be well placed at the door of any clinic, medical practitioner

Your aversion towards religion does affect you in the same way as [blind] faith does the people. ...and maybe .. that effect is much better.

Probably no need the studies that showed the postive relation between having a religious faith and the well being of people and their recovery process.

[um]

@AA

Going to make myself some coffee, over thinking your reactions reminded me of an welknown and loved surgeon where I grew up.
Frequenting one of the 6 Augustine High Schools where the students were suppose to go to mass several days in the week, I would slip into the darker parts of their chapel so that nobody would see me playing with my dinky toy cars etc.
After the mass was started and everybody seated and focused on the priest, in the most dark side the door who open and silently a man would slip in unnoticed by anybody but probably me. ... it was the surgeon.
Each and every time I was impressed by what I saw as far as the darkness allowed me.
In those day I had no idea why the man impressed me so much with his body language.
Now many decades later I do realize that the man although known and praised all over the place for his skills as surgeon ... was the embodiment of HUMILITY and meekness of heart.

That too Doctor is the effect of faith

[AA]

For thousands of years, religion has only been promising life after death, for which it has not been able to provide any proof till date. While during this period, science has doubled the average lifespan of humans in just a hundred years.

Decide... who is trustworthy and who is deceptive.

[um]

@ AA

That proof is of no importance what so ever ... what matters AA is the affect the believe in an after life, has on people..

Is there any proof by the way that a skeptic, atheistic and otherwise averse mindset does people any good?

AS a medical professional you should know something about the effects of a positive mindset.

[um]

@ AA

For the record ... in my book, a [religious] worldview, worldly or otherwise, hand be handled in a negative and a positive way. I call them cultural "hunting / survival" tools.

The only thing that really matters is the HU-MAN,

Focusing on guns etc is a distraction of the real cause of killing ... the human.

Focus sing on gurus and what they do or on the provability of worldviews is also a distraction.

[AA]

It is said that to experience God, it is very important to have faith and trust within you. Since atheists lack both of these, they can never experience God.

Actually, two things are necessary to experience magic, to be surprised by it and to enjoy it.

1. You should not have any knowledge about that trick.

2. You should have complete faith and belief in the magician that he really has some miraculous power.

If you fulfill both these conditions, only then can you experience magic. Then you will enjoy it completely. You will jump and clap on every trick.

But unfortunately I do not fulfill both these conditions. Because I have been a magician myself. I know the whole secret behind these tricks. And now there is no way to forget it.

[um]

@ AA

You are not alone.

Personally I think that the capacity to IMAGINE is related to success in all sorts of religious and spiritual practices.That capacity is spread over the population according a Gauss curve.

Probably atheism, and certainly skepticism is related to personality characteristics people are, born with, or develop in early youth and is related to .... trust, safety

But .. as far as I know they have not started to study these things in Psychology

Further it seems to me that whatever I have read about people having inner experiences was most of the time preceded by and severe emotional trauma.

As an example it is worthwhile to hear the biography of the now called Father Lawrence al Antoni that lives as an Coptic recluse in the Egyptian dessert as once was done by the early "desert fathers" ... He started out as an Australian, atheistic lecturer at an Austraian University as an Professor in filosophy

[um]

@ AA

With folded hands ...

Maybe AA you could ask yourself some questions instead of asking questions about others and what they stand for.

Living in Moga, you certainly may be supposed to know that many people of the local elite, elite in many forms, have had associations with the several ashrams that are to be found in the Punjab. All well educated and respected people.

Ask yourself why they could do what you can't

Not that you should!!!!
By all means, you are most welcome to be and do whatever suits you

They are at the same level as you are ..material, cultural etc. .. do not look at the rest.
which you can easily lable as "ignorant"

[sant64]

We get the term "juggernaut" from the Hindu Jagannath. An early Jesuit historian said was a benighted Indian custom of devotees hurling themselves neath the wheels of the Lord Jagannath idol cart. Historians dispute whether these deaths were deliberate or accidents caused by the physics of large crowds in tight spaces.

From this essay one might assume that religious events sponsored by Godmen account for the majority of similar crowd death incidents, but according to this compilation that doesn't appear to be so. Crowd crushes happen for all kinds of non-religious reasons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_crowd_crushes

Atheists constantly pitch the notion that all would be well with the world if the people would just embrace rationality and give up on the God idea. But the recent track record of the so-called rationalists leaves much to be desired. Some examples of what I mean:

1) Two years of a worldwide freak over "covid," which turned out to be nothing more dangerous than the flu. Children within that generation will likely be scarred for the rest of their lives.

2) Billions of dollars spent for the grand plan of, ahem, funding Ukraine to defeat the entire Russian army until there are no Ukrainians left.

3) The Wall Street Journal, ever the defender of free speech, ardently published more columns about the utter enormity of college students supporting Gaza than they probably ever wrote about 9/11. It's the crime of the century -- Jewish college students are being made to feel uncomfortable! It's 1933 again, (it's always 1933 with some people), somebody do something!

4) The leader of the free world has advanced dementia. The leader of the free world has had dementia for quite a long time now. Everyone is aware that the leader of the free world has dementia, and yet no one is saying anything should be done about this utter pellucid fact that the leader of the free world has DEMENTIA. D E M E N T I A. The world is currently led by a man who is clinically non-compos mentis. And everyone is just saying shucks to that.

5) A quarter of the world is morbidly obese, no one wants to do anything about that grave danger to humanity, because that would be unkind. Instead, all the focus is on "climate change." Meanwhile, everyone still continues to burn fossil fuels like a mofo, even the most ardent climate change devotees.

Hey rational atheists, show me something. Show me where your world is better than the world of the religious devotee. Sorry, you're on your way to a clinic to get high? Far out. Well, get back to me when you come down.

[um]

@ Sant

>> Atheists constantly pitch the notion that all would be well with the world if the people would just embrace rationality and give up on the God idea.<<

Hahaa .. here in West Europe some people arriving at majority vote are convinced that ..."all would be well" ..IF ... there was no immigration from Africa .. the return of ... "national socialism"

It is populist thinking, that a diversity of problems have all ONE cause and can be dealt with with ONE solution.

Thinking that "THE. this or that person" is the cause is at the same level of simplism

[Ron E.]

Hi um. You've missed the point again and gone off at a tangent. Too much coffee - try tea.

[um]

@ Ron E.

What did I miss?
What do you mean with "gone off at a tangent"?

You cannot expect a person, to change is mind if he doesn't know what is "wrong."

[AA]

Conspiracy theories always attract people. Ordinary people who do not understand things become its victims very easily.

What probably happens is that the poor person who is not very educated, who does not understand things much, also wants to become/appear intelligent. Such conspiracy theories make him feel intelligent. That he knows some profound truth, different from the educated people, experts of some field, scientists, intellectuals, which even the mainstream intellectuals of the world are unable to understand.

But many people who are intelligent and educated, also start believing in such conspiracy theories which seem to support their thinking or create such theories on their own, due to their prejudices, religious/political beliefs or being staunch supporters of some ideology.

Calling 9/11 an internal conspiracy, calling moon landing fake, calling global warming a myth, calling vaccination a threat to mankind are all popular conspiracy theories whose supporters you will find all over the world. Despite being refuted with evidence by many scientists and intellectuals all over the world, they can still force those who argue with them to take Panadol.

The problem in arguing with these people is that you will have to first explain the right thing to them. That what you are thinking is not true but it is true. On top of that, the problem is that often the person with whom you are arguing does not understand those scientific facts and principles. A systematic study is required to understand science. It is a tough task to explain even slightly complex facts/theories to those who do not have systematic study in science.

And even if you somehow clear a doubt, the conspiracy propagandist is always ready with a counter. Where you have to explain the facts in detail, he just has to twist the facts. All the hard work is on your shoulders. You will be able to clear one misconception by spending your valuable time, but he will easily create two new misconceptions in a snap of his fingers. How long will you waste your time?

So instead of worrying about such people, it is better to motivate them to study the related subject. If they can do it, they will come out of the misconception themselves.

[um]

@AA

If the ruling elite sees to it that the masses can earn a living, there would not be any conspiracy theory.

Read MARX, about the ownership of the means of production and you might understand.

[BRB]

Bhai Gurdas wrote this about the religious country of India over 400 years ago: (From Sikhitothemax)
"pauRee 30 :
Miserable plight of India
O God! in kaliyug , the mentality of the jiv has become like the mouth of dog which always seeks the dead to eat.
The kings are sinning as if the protective fence were itself devouring the (crop in the) field.
Bereft of knowledge, the blind people are uttering falsehood.
Now the gurus are dancing variously to the tunes played by the disciples.
The students now sit at home and the teachers go to their abodes
Qazis enjoy bribes and getting the same they have lost their high regards and position.
Man and woman love each other for riches, may they come from anywhere.
The sin has become ubiquitous in the whole world."

Not much has changed in India. Gurus live like kings and the poor suffer and die. Curious how this Bhole baba will take care of the suffering families, spouses and children left behind? Or will the untimely, meaningless deaths be projected as blessings?

[um]

@ Ron

I was just thinking again about your reaction.

Most of the times when I read your words, I have the feeling I could have stated the same as far as the the scope of the text is concerned .. for the rest I miss the command of language you have, if only because English is not my mother tongue..

That gave me the impression we are at par on many points related to worldview.
but it seems not to be reciprocal.

If after all the fact that I drink coffee the problem??

what reminds me of visiting the UK and been served the most miserable cup of coffee ever. ... a slug of cold coffee extract in a cup, filled up with boiling water.

[Appreciative Reader]

"India has a well-deserved reputation for being a hotbed of religious fervor. I'd call that fanaticism, but I'm trying to be fair to India, since that country also is responsible for some of the most sophisticated faiths in the world."

Yes, it is true that it was India that birthed a great many very sophisticated spiritual and indeed intellectual ideas. I'd say that it is precisely for that reason that the proliferation of superstition in that land stands out so, in sharp contrast with the intellectual and spiritual heights scaled in the past. Rather than carrying forward the proud legacy of leading the world in matters of the mind and intellect and spirit, India is today reduced largely to a sorry superstitious mess. Every Indian who is possessed of a sense of history, and of a sense of true respect for that history, cannot but feel deep sorrow and indeed shame at this.

As for this stampede, at once tragic and absurd, while its proximate cause was poor organization and crowd management, but it is of a piece with the recent Hajj stampede in Saudi Arabia, and certainly it speaks to the absurd and sorry spectacle of blind irrational religious fervor.

[AA]

Don't be a slave to your ignorance. Find the source of your beliefs and thoughts. Where did they come from? And muster up the courage to question them bravely. If something comes up that is contrary to your beliefs, don't run away from it. Face it. Accept it. This is the only way to be free from the prison of ignorance. Your life is precious. It is not wise to spend it in the prison of ignorance and delusion. that's what guru charan singh used to said in his satsang.

[um]

@ AR

>> ..... and certainly it speaks to the absurd and sorry spectacle of blind irrational religious fervor.<<

No AR it does not.
Going to such an gathering can speak of what you write ...it is up to you how to attribute value and meaning to what is dear an near to other fellow human beings

But the stampede is a matter of poor organisation etc all factors that have nothing to do with religion et all ...see the example of what happened in Germany in 2010

[Appreciative Reader]

Only a fool without any brains to speak of would dance attendance to this charlatan of a Baba.

But let's not lose sight of the fact that that exact same thing might be said of all of those half-wits that dance attendance to the freeloading cross-dressing arch-charlatan at the Vatican, as well as the gullible idiots that flock to the many shameless televangelists and preachers and such other grifters that continue to infest the world.

On the other hand, let's also not allow whataboutery to detract from this enormity in India, that is the subject of discussion here and now.

[um]

@ AA

Did listening and digesting the words of the late MCS made you turn your back against religion?

Have you ever heard with what kind of respect he spoke about what he called "the hill people", about the immense quality of their faith?

Tell me!

[Appreciative Reader]

Hey, um.

Sure, the proximate cause of the stampede was poor crowd management. I agree. I said as much, in fact in those very words.

Agreed, the same may well have happened at any large gathering, be it a political rally, or a music festival.

But while that's true, that does not take away from the sorry spectacle of brain-dead ignorant fools flocking to charlatans like this Baba creature, or, elsewhere, to other freeloading grifters like the Pope or his priest-minions, or to preachers and televangelists and other such lowlifes.

[um]

@ AR

It pains me to read the adjectives you use to attribute meaning and value to your fellow human beings.
Nobody deserves to be labeled in such an degrading way, just because you do not like what they do.

[Appreciative Reader]

It is a literal description, um. Regardless of whether you or I like it or dislike it, grifters and charlatans are literally that, and the blind faith that people place on such is literally ignorant and half-witted.

What should pain you is the fact that dishonest grifters like this Bhole Baba and the Pope and televangelists and preachers exist, and continue to fleece the gullible. To express pain at my clearly calling this out, is to simply shoot the messenger. To be pained at my words, rather than at the reality my words describe, is to shut your eyes and bury your head deep in the sand, and complain that others aren't doing that as well.

[um]

@ AR

What is THERE is just in your own mind AR
It is YOUR attribution.

People believe what the want to believe, nobody has the power to mnake them believe anything

People are also free to vote for whomever they thing that will serve their goals, no Trump has the power to force the people to vote for him.

If the elite, the establishment would look after the welfare of the people, none of these excesses would ever occur..

If the nobelity had not gone to far in squeezing the people, thee would not have been a revolution neither in Russia nor in France.

If the governments nof the west had no stolen the means of the common people to earn their own living there would be no TRump, no growing populism in Europe no echo of National Socialism.

Your words describe only how YOU look at the world AR .. nothing more nothing less.
It is all in your own house.

[um]

@ AR

Religion is an cultural- psychological TOOL.
People, humans, all sentient beings are auto-survival-structures.
See to their material and mental welfare and nobody will be intereste in religion or politics.

There are few that are in a positions that they can take their attention away from the daily survival.
Science my friend is only possible because millions work for scientists so that they can pleasure themselves with mental games.

Whatever there is that a nation etc is proud of .. their cathedrals, their monuments, their castles, it is all payed by and worked for by the masses.

These masses have been kept in slavery until this day.
and you dear to look down upon them

[Appreciative Reader]

No, um, it is not there only in my mind. It is actually what happened, and is happening. That unfortunate reality will remain the sad truth, even if Brian and I kept mum about it.

Yes, it is in my mind. Yes, it is in my own house. But in this case, no, it is not ONLY in my mind, it is not ONLY in my house. In this case, it is in my mind because my mind registers and recognizes and reacts to what is out there. In this case, it is in my house as an image reflected in my mirror, of what is happening out in the world.

You're shooting the messenger, um. Even if the messenger kept quiet, the ugly reality of ignorant people harboring fallacious beliefs would remain, and the ugly reality of dishonest Babas and Popes and preachers and televangelists grifting the gullible masses would remain as well.

Don't shoot the messenger, um. Don't shut your eyes to reality. Don't shut your eyes to the suffering of the oppressed and the befooled.

Rather than being pained at my words per se, direct that pain to the ugly reality that those words describe. Be pained at the dishonesty of the charlatans. Be pained at the befoolment of the trusting ignorant gullible masses. Be pained at the unfortunate realty, and not at the words that clearly describe that reality.

[umami]

swami umami: "Atheists have more fun."

[um]

@ AR

Whatever book you chose and open, it is all related to you.
YOU are the ..doer ... you are the creator of your own world
What you read is not "IN" the book it is inside YOU.

Our human elders said therefore, If there is anything you want to understand, outside yourself, have a look in your own house ... know yourself ... and knowing yourself you will understand whatever is to be witnessed outside the house.

Coffee is a great teacher.

[Appreciative Reader]

You're wrong, um. I don't look down at the masses. I look down on the charlatans. I look down at the ignorant beliefs the masses are saddled with and suffer under. I do that because I empathize with the people themselves.

To imagine that the masses are incapable of the clear vision that you and I possess, is to be inexcusably condescending towards them. To do that is to do them a great disservice. To imagine that they can do no better, THAT is what amounts to looking down on them.

Open your eyes, um. Open your eyes to the reality of religious grifters cheating the innocent and ignorant masses.

Open your heart, um. Open your heart to the suffering of the poor and the ignorant and the disadvantaged, whose suffering is compounded manifold by the dishonesty of self-serving preachers and priests and Babas and Popes.

Shutting your eyes and ears, and trying to shut the mouth of critics like Brian and me, will not make the ugly reality disappear. The first step in changing that ugly reality, is to clearly recognize the reality of it, no matter how unpleasant. Not to do that, is to indirectly enable the oppressors, and to perpetuate the oppression.

[Appreciative Reader]

No, um. In this case I'm not the doer. In this case I'm the observer. The doer is the charlatan befooling the masses.

If you insist on describing my observing as a kind of doing, then sure. But like I said, that is the necessary first step in changing this ugly reality. By that same yardstick, your trying to prevent the clear recognition of this ugly reality is also a form of doing. And that, like I said, ends up indirectly enabling the oppressors and the grifters, and ends up perpetuating the suffering of the masses. Is that really what you want to be "doing"?

[um]

@AR

Heaven has it .. my detailed answer got lost .. so be it.

Since when are observers, doers, that want to change what they observe?
You are participant and want to change the world according YOUR own outlook.
That .. the elders understood .. is not possible.
You do not have that power

[um]

@ AR

If there is something as a reality .. it is just reality as it is

There is not such a thing as an "UGLY" reality.
UGLINESS does not exist but as an attribute in one's mind

I do see both, the reality you point at ...AND ... how YOU look at it and what meaning and value you attributed at it

AND ... i do not want to change that because it is outside my hands.
The mirror changes nothing, it has no inention, no power.

[Appreciative Reader]

Clearly observing reality, and honestly recognizing it for what it is, is the first step towards changing it. True, there is no guarantee that recognizing reality for what it is will necessarily change it. But if at all anything can change it, then that is the first step that will end up doing it. ...On the other hand, not recognizing reality for what it is, is guaranteed to perpetuate that inequity.

It's like this. Say you're unwell, or maybe simply hungry. Or maybe your small child is. Or maybe your neighbor. Recognizing that illness, and that hunger, is the first step in remedying that affliction. Sure, recognizing it does not guarantee its remedy, it is merely the first step. But it is a necessary first step. Not taking that first step, not recognizing that affliction, is guaranteed to perpetuate it. Where is the upside to that? The bliss in head-in-the-sand wilful-ignorance is insubstantial, it lacks foundation, um. Are you seriously advocating for that?

[Appreciative Reader]

No, it is NOT outside of your reach, um. You can directly participate in activism, if you're moved to do that. If you cannot be bothered to go that far, then clearly recognizing that inequity and clearly spelling it out, can create the foundation that others might build on to effect change.

And even if nothing changes, even so, surely observing reality clearly and recognizing it honestly and unflinchingly, is something that has merit in and of itself? The opposite of that, and what you seem to be advocating for, is to wilfully shut your eyes to reality because it is unpleasant. Or else to remain indifferent to inequity and to the suffering of others. To not only not do anything about it, but to actually not even think about it. What can possibly be the upside to that?

[um]

@ AR

I am advocating nothing to nobody.
It do my best to write down how I handle things,.
That is all.

Our dad taught us to hear upon him without any ... yes but.
He never asked us to agree with him.
It was his duty to speak up.
It was our duty to hear what he said.
It was our responsibility what we made of what we heard and how we digested it and acted upon it.

Later I heard something about that attitude as "open mind"

I never had the intention to change anybody or anything in this world.
What is there so difficult to understand AR?
If the food served in a restaurant, is not according my liking I just don't go there again

If a guru is not according my emotional and intellectual liking I do not go to his or her Satsang and vice versa .. and natural not being a guru myself, my reaction can not and should have no value and meaning with respect to that particular guru.

It is not for nothing that I put time and again MY version of the laila+ Jamon story here.

Whatever respect, love or whatever there is in me is for free to give by me. Nobody can earn it, deserve it

[Appreciative Reader]

But you HAVE been disagreeing with my perspective, you are clearly advocating, through implication, that I should do things differently.

When I point out to you that what you're suggesting is dysfunctional, in as much as it perpetuates this inequity and this suffering, then you end up backpedaling and claiming that you never suggested anything at all.

I don't know what to make of that backpedaling, um, or how to react to it, other than by simply pointing out this backpedaling clearly to you.

[um]

Alright ... here is the last clue AR

Have some coffee, sit down and look for a whil; at your hand, just gaze.
Then call it YOUR hand
and later
A ..hand

Then ask yourself what is the difference between "My hand" and "a hand|"

[Appreciative Reader]

As for that restaurant analogy, we've been through that already, and in great detail, remember? That old discussion of ours about subjectivity and objectivity?

If two restaurants both serve good food, then sure, you can take your custom to whichever subjectively agrees with you. But if it is the case that one restaurant serves food that is actually spoilt, toxic, poisonous, then that is OBJECTIVE grounds for (1) first step, clearly recognizing the fact of that toxicity; (2) second step, refraining from eating that food yourself; and (3) third step, trying to ensure that others are not harmed by eating that toxic food, by warning them, and maybe by calling in the authorities and shutting that business down.

You may take all three steps if you are so moved. If you don't care about what happens to others, then you may stay content with the first two steps. But where on earth is the upside to never even taking that first step of clearly recognizing the objective fact of toxicity in their food, and further in objecting to it when others do that? Makes no sense.

Some things are subjective, sure. But some things are objectively true. We've already been over this, in great detail, months ago, a few years ago maybe, remember?

[Appreciative Reader]

I've no idea what that hand thing is about, um. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with what we've been discussing just now. Maybe you could clarify what you mean?

[um]

@ AR

It has, it has and I am not going to explain it and I am also stopping my contribution again and close the door of this inn behind me.

Take care of yourself.

[Appreciative Reader]

See again my comment about your restaurant analogy.

If there's an establishment serving spoilt, toxic food, then that's OBJECTIVELY poisonous. Things are sometimes subjective, and indeed all things do have a subjective element. Nevertheless some things can be objective. ...Tying this back, the snake oil peddled by the Bhole Babas and Popes of the world is objectively fallacious. Recognizing that is the first step in changing that harmful state of affairs. Even if no larger change is contemplated, even so, clearly recognizing that is a good thing, in and of itself. You're going to great lengths, and performing energetic contortions, to try to establish that one should not be clearly calling out that toxicity. ...Why is that, can you spell that out clearly? (We may then either converge to an agreement, or else agree to disagree. As things stand, I find your reasons incoherent. Maybe you could just spell them out clearly, rather than putting in unnecessarily cryptic hints?)

[Appreciative Reader]

As you wish, um. We needn't continue this discussion if you'd rather not.

My good wishes to you, old friend.

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/2/at-least-27-dead-in-stampede-during-religious-gathering-in-northern-india
"A large crowd gathered on Tuesday in a village in Uttar Pradesh state’s Hathras district, about 200km (125 miles) southeast of the national capital, New Delhi, for a sermon by a preacher, and a fierce dust storm sparked panic as people were leaving."

[Kranvir]

Ofcourse the fake ass gurus will say that it was in the sangat karma to die like this - karma being the embedded seed for gurus to get away with all sorts of evils actions on people. But the reality is that they were blind followers programmed to get close to the so called god by contract or self proclaimed guru. How stupid can someone be, step out the box and out of those emotions and you will see how stupid you were. Gurinder singh dhilon uses a negative energy through his eyes, and pushes it onto the sangat which waynes over time. This is why Gurinder, who's an old man ( a dirty old man) has to run around the world to re-zap the stupid sangat with this negative energy to keep the sheep sedated. This is the real reason for the so called dreshti - the gurus in the past have never done this and it's not even mentioned in the bani or any book

[Jim]

Maybe they should study some Neville Goddard. My fav quote.
God/Jesus=imagination which is implanted(crucified) in the skull (Golgotha) of every human.
So how to deploy the imagination is the question?
Quite easily-Choose a goal(ex. visiting the god worlds as RS promises) before you sleep. Then imagine what it would be like to hear a friend congratulate you on attaining your goal. Imagine them shaking your hand. Then sleep and continue this every night with as much excitement as you can as feeling is the secret.