Anyone have opinions on the Soami Bagh line of gurus?

I've communicated via email with someone who had questions about Radha Soami Satsang Beas, the organization I was a member of for 35 years. Now this person is wondering if any visitors to this blog have an opinion about the Soami Bagh branch of Radha Soami.

Below is part of what they said to me. Leave a comment on this post if you have some experience with Soami Bagh.

I've become a Radha Soami skeptic, but for those who aren't, I just noticed that the Soami Bagh web site has some interesting books and other publications available online. Like, the Phelps Notes, which if I recall correctly, was viewed as sort of an underground, "forbidden fruit" book by Radha Soami Satsang Beas. Naturally I had a copy, but gave it away at some point.

Can you please put a post up on your blog asking others what sort of experiences that they have had with the Soami Bagh branch of Radha Soami, the so-called parent line?

 

As I have previously mentioned, I am still holding out some hope that there may be a real Sant Sat Guru someplace. But before I go trekking all the way to India, I was curious to hear from some others who may have already gone to Soami Bagh before me.

 

And just so that I am clear, I am asking specifically about the Soami Bagh line. And not the Dayal Bagh line. The Dayal Bagh line is much bigger, but I do not feel any draw towards them.

Comments

[Appreciative Reader]

This is at a tangent from what this thread's about, but I clicked on your Phelps Notes link, and found what, a decade or two ago, would have looked to me like an actual treasure trove; and that even now comes across as a very interesting read!

So far I've not actually started reading the book itself, only glanced through the index. Right near the top there's a chapter titled "Absurdity of the proposition that the Lord is undifferentiated". That cracked me up, as I pictured poor "Babuji Maharaj" sitting there earnestly dictating this tripe, and poor Myron Phelps sitting there earnestly taking it all down, both of them completely oblivious to the absurdity of the absurdity of the proposition that the Lord is undifferentiated.

But that hilarity apart, absolutely, I'm looking forward to reading this book, and not just to laugh at it. Like I said, a decade or two ago I'd have leapt at the book in unvarnished enthusiasm, just as earnestly and just as taken with this gobbledygook as Babuji Maharaj and Myron Phelps; and even today I'm genuinely interested in the content of it.

Bookmarked for later on when I'm free. Thanks for the link, Brian.

[um]

Education, any form of education, practice is a matter of many different aspects, quantitative,qualitative and others. It is a matter of calling, talent, dedication and many others.

Education is a hierarchical, pyramidal stricture ..many are called [ to function at the base] but few are chosen [ to stand on the very top of the pyramid]

So .. many can frequent high school, some can go to the university.. Not everybody can go to all the universities and within an university not all are allowed to develop their academical talent with the preceding "Einstein,"

To study with and under the direct tutorship of this or that genius is not available for all
even if one has all the qualifications for being a "perfect student" one is not accepted as student.

Sant Mat, in practice and education, is a as that pyramid.

And ... the higher one goes the risks of falling and the consequences of falling are greater ..wrong practice can damage the body and the mind, the eyes and even the brain. ...as by Faqirchand Maharaj in his "NAM DAAN" = initiation / booklet being downloadable on the internet.

Or in my own words .. not all are fitted to eat at the tabnle of a great chef.

Faqir chand writes that one should find peace of mind in the association with a saint ...or ... one should leave a tble with the feeling of satisfaction. Some do themselves more pleasure with eating an hamburger than eatin at the famous NOMA .

And ... finally there are some that love to read and comment books on cooking etc.

[um]

https://manavtamandir.com/books/english/Nam-Dan.pdf

[sant64]

Not me, but perhaps send an email to James Bean, as he seems to be in the loop on this topic. There's also Prof. Daniel Gold, who I believe took initiation from a non-RSSB guru and has written several books on RS history.

https://asianstudies.cornell.edu/daniel-gold

Not Soami Bagh, but Dayal Bagh. I found this exchange between Julian Johnson and a Dayal Bagh guru (who has the prose chops of an Oxford Don) very interesting and quite revealing.

https://medium.com/sant-mat-meditation-and-spirituality/a-letter-from-dr-1cd00c45ea56

[Appreciative Reader]

I started reading these Phelps Notes now, and did go through the first two chapters of it; before getting distracted by um's link to Faqir Chand's pamphlet, and sant64's link to those letters.

First about Phelps Notes, that brief portion of it that I read before moving on to those two other links: Certainly I expected that second chapter to be hilarious; and it was an added bonus to find that what Babuji Maharaj was channeling is Aquinas! Or at least, a variation of Aquinas. That’s beyond funny, that would-be reasonable-and-rational tone adopted in discussing whether the Lord is differentiated or undifferentiated! (To be fair, that’s no less hilarious than the unmitigated claptrap peddled by the RCC, or other stripes of Christian theology. Or, for that matter, the nonsense that is Aquinas’s defense itself, particularly when it is earnestly quoted in this day and age.)

I don't mean to be dismissive of this Phelps Notes book, though, despite that hilarity. It is everything I expected it to be. Like I said, the callow young me of 15 years ago would have been overjoyed to find something like this, and approached it very eagerly and very earnestly, reverently even. For that matter, the me of 8 to 10 years ago also would have been far more diffident about dismissing any of this, even despite my increasingly skeptical outlook at that time. And even now, it's a complete treat to be reading this book: except, it's all so hilariously fictive, so completely unsupported by the smallest bit of evidence, all of these things that these men treated so very seriously.

I've used up the time I'd allotted for this book, thanks to um’s and sant64’s links; but I look forward to reading it some other time. I can see why this would be seen by many as precious "forbidden fruit". Thanks, once again, Brian, for making it freely available here.

----------

um, I glanced through your Faqir Chand link. Interesting reading. It's just a pamphlet, and doesn't really go into the tofu of his ideas and teachings, but interesting nevertheless.

Reminds me, there was an excellent Faqir Chand book I'd read one time, that I think was linked to here on Brian's blog. Either by Brian himself, or maybe by one of the commenters here. At least I think so, because I don't remember owning or otherwise handling an actual physical book written by or about him; and I don't see where else, other than here, I might have come across a soft copy of his book.

This one was far more lightweight than that, and the gist of it so much more easily and more quickly digested, particularly if one is already familiar with all of this. But thanks for the link, um, it was interesting.

----------

sant64, thanks, very much, for your link to those letters! They were exquisite! They made for very, very interesting reading.

I loved how they addressed in detail the two very different POVs abouthe principle of service as it applies to spiritual practice, as well as the technicalities of the specific inner passwords to the regions. Pity their exchange came to an end when it did, given Julian Johnson's brusque closing off of further discussion on this. I'd have loved to see how, over another one or two letters each, these two might have further built up their cases, and maybe argued to its logical end their disparate POVs on both those matters.

Lovely link, thanks for posting!

[um]

@ AR

It is an actual initiation into sant mat and it speaks about the requisites for the those that want to walk that path successfully.
In the meantime he speaks up about some issues related to Sant Mat guru's

It is in a way in the same genre as "The cloud of unknowing"
Which starts out with BEGGING the reader not to continue if he is not has a calling to do so.

You are right there is nothing or not much for you to be found there.

[Appreciative Reader]

Interesting, that, um. That he should ask people to do this only if they have a particular talent and knack for it.

That suggests that Faqir's de facto theology was very different than standard RSSB fare. Or even standard death-and-rebirth fare.

Because if you believe in life after death; and that that afterlife is crucially dependent on whether you meditate and whether you progress within: then you'll try your utmost, to the limits of whatever aptitude you may have. It's then a matter more urgent than anything else, and not something that is subject to whether or not you have talent, and to be kept away from if you haven't that aptitude and "calling".

So that, if as you say Faqir actively discouraged those lacking a calling for meditative practices from trying their best nevertheless; then that seems to suggest he did not believe these things. Very interesting, that.

(David Lane is kind of an expert on Faqir, isn't he. I mean he literally wrote the book about him and that Chandan Effect thing. He may be able to give to us his authoritative take on this, should he chance to see your post and mine here.)

[um]

@ AR

I have nothing to add to what I wrote.

[Appreciative Reader]

Didn't expect you to, um. Not unless you've extensively read about and researched Faqir Chand's theology and ideas and beliefs.

Just, that conclusion seems to follow, from what you say you've read in Faqir Chand's book. Which is very curious, for a Guru in that tradition with a whole lot of followers.

[Appreciative Reader]

That is, that would follow, provided Faqir Chand were always coherent and consistent and above all scrupulously accurate as well as honest in his utterances. Which he seems to be, given his frank admission to DL about the Chandian effect (as opposed to putting on an all-knowing pose).

(I don't think we need bother with any such detailed analyses and deductions about what someone like, say, GSD says, and even less the many other gurus and preachers that prey on the gullible for a living, and more. Much of what these types say can simply be dismissed as either whatever happens to be useful for them to say in the moment, or maybe simply random things simply not consistent with other stuff said earlier.)

I'm only idly curious about this, and see no need to go out of my way to follow up on this. Nor do you, clearly. But someone actually invested in what Faqir believed, in the context of what I'd said, could start with a detailed perusal of the text you had referenced, and then tried to check out more of his writings, his speeches, his words. ... But yeah, interesting, that, generally speaking.

[um]

@ AR
I do not understand what you write.

I almost finished Naam-Dan and I have no words to describe how I feel. I had that before and somewhat different when i read the anurag Sagar by Kabir ..the best way to point at what i felt then was to say that it seemed as if the book was alive..

On coming home , sometimes I make trumpet-like sounds in the hall and the stairway as the acoustic qualities are unprecedented ..the resonance, and vibration is sheer joy. It is not available elsewhere in the house. If I do make the same sounds there, they all are lifeless.

The whole of Sant Mat, and any other tradition, I personally feel is related to that quality.of resonance.

[Appreciative Reader]

Oh, didn't you understand that? I reread my comment just now, and it seems clearly spelt out. I don't see how I could make it clearer.

But no matter. That was just an unexpected facet to FC's beliefs, that seemed to follow from that remark you'd made. If you're really interested, you could try rereading that comment of mine (timestamped 12:43); and if you still don't get it then I'm happy to try to rephrase it for you. If you're really interested, that is.

----------

I appreciate that you found this book so inspiring, like you say now. Don't mind me, I wasn't being dismissive of the text. Just, if you're already familiar with this framework and with all of these ideas, then it comes across as just more of the same old. Nothing new really, provided you're already acquainted with this stuff. (I expect you'd have read it long ago, at a time when you didn't know much about traditions like these --- unlike now, when you do know a great deal? That might explain it.)

In any case, I've only generally browsed through the book, not digested every small detail of it. It's entirely possible that there may be specific nuggets there I may have missed. If you'd like to talk about any such specific, then do go ahead!

In general, though, I do appreciate how books like these can sometimes strike a deep chord, and inspire one by pointing at a higher reality beyond this mundane one, that we might grasp out at. I'm very familiar with the feeling. By all means cherish the feeling, and keep looking, if you like. I myself do, you know.

[um]

@
>> In general, though, I do appreciate how books like these can sometimes strike a deep chord,<<

That is the only thing that matters.

[Jim Sutherland]

@UM and other FC readers. I have read all, or most of FC’s books, as well as every Soamibagh book published in English. I had them all, but no longer have any left in paper. But with out going in to detail, FC did make it very obvious that the hallowed highest Spiritual Realm is RADHASOAMI, and all any one needs to do to access it, is to skip all the lower 5 Names and realms, and by just repeating the RADHASOAMI nam as Simran, we arrive there. But, he said , once arriving there, nothing is there. No Sound, Light or Forms. And in his letter to Ms. Bruce, who later became his last Wife, Julian Johnson argued that we need to climb the 5 lower stairs , first, one at a time, experiencing Lights, Sounds, Forms, in order to arrive to the Highest Spiritual Realm to obtain the Goal, and Reward of NOTHING!
I have discovered that is how it works many years ago. If any one followed the Meditation Tech. I posted here in the past, I shared that very same experience, i.e. after traveling through the forms, Lights and Sounds, we arrive at the Void that FC and Soamibagh Gurus identify as RADHASOAMI, or Anami. Charan Singh said that those 3 Realms above Sat Nam, or Sach Khand, were only “Sub Realms” of Sat Nam

[um]

@ Jim S.

>> I have discovered that is how it works many years ago.<<
That being the case = having traversed the path as laid out by Mah. Faq. Chand, you must be at PEACE ..with your self and the world around you.

Lucky you.

[Appreciative Reader]

"That is the only thing that matters."

Hahaha, no um, most assuredly it is not! That is, it is an important first step, sure. But then comes the very important question of finding specific route/s towards that end. And the equally crucial matter of a critical evaluation of those route/s. And, more fundamentally, a rigorous critical assessment of whether that higher reality beyond our mundane reality, that has so inspired us, is actually a thing. True seeking is a far more complex thing than merely getting inspired!

And in any case, we've once again ended up talking about completely random things, haven't we? Because this thing you're now discussing --- the primacy of the role of inspiration in the overall process of spiritual seeking and actualization --- is only tangentially related, if that, to what you'd originally said (Faqir Chand's exhortation to his followers to stop following him and to stop continuing with their practice, should they feel they don't have a calling for it), or to the specific inference about Faqir Chand that I drew from that observation of yours.

But it's cool. Although following your train of thought down these random jumps from subject to subject to tangentially related subject can make for somewhat disjointed discussion; but, in this case, each of these provide great food for thought, and I've enjoyed thinking and talking about each of them with you.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Um,…Well, we mostly all agree that we ALL , who are here now, started from Nothing. Once we left Nothing, we each have traveled different paths experiencing lots of different “some things.” So, in reality, according to the Sant Mat Path, every thing below RADHASOAMI Nothing, is Kal/Brahm/Time,…of Creation/Maya.
So, with that simple consideration, ignoring the reality of the Sant Mat Goal at arriving back to Nothingness,……have you ever have met another human being in this life who really desires to become Nothing, and plans to no longer exist? I haven’t.

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"I've communicated via email with someone who had questions about Radha Soami Satsang Beas, the organization I was a member of for 35 years. Now this person is wondering if any visitors to this blog have an opinion about the Soami Bagh branch of Radha Soami."

Dear Email Seeker,

I've never personally been to Soami Bagh, nor have I ever been to Radha Soami Satsang Beas, or Dinod, nor Ruhani Satsang, etc., etc., and possibly 100,000 etcs.

But, I have done research on all the above. For you, since this is your search. I recommend you collect whatever information online to compare. Then if you need further information not found online, make your adventure to India for their originals.

One thing, I found Bagh also has a copy of Sar Bachan by the originator Swami Ji Shiv Seth Dayal.

Good luck!

[Sound Chaser]

Hello everyone!

I am the one who asked Brian to post this question about Soami Bagh.

First of all, a big THANK YOU to Brian for posting this for me! And a big THANK YOU to everyone who has responded thus far! Particularly those like Karim, and others who had some actual input about my question.

And all of the other comments, albeit not necessarily directly related to my question, have nevertheless been extremely interesting and informative.

And I plan to post a lot more here myself in the very near future.

And another big THANK YOU and shout out to Brian for allowing us all to have this space where we can freely and openly communicate about all of this. I absolutely LOVE the diversity of opinions on here!

Oh, and if anyone who has not already read "Discourses on Radhasoami Faith", by Misra Brahm Sankar, whom I believe was the third Sant Sat Guru in the Soami Bagh line, here is a link to an online version of it. It reminds me somewhat of "Path Of The Masters" but it has some very interesting technical details that I have never seen in any other of the RS and Sant Mat teachings. "Phelps Notes" and some of the other Soami Bagh literature talks about these same details. But I have never seen these details in any other Sant Mat or RS line.

And I am not necessarily saying that I agree with these details. My jury is still out about that. But I do find it interesting that in Soami Bagh, the so called parent line, it seems to be the only place that these details are mentioned, and talked about.

Enjoy!
https://archive.org/details/discoursesonradh00misruoft

And Kranvir, Trez, and Mike Williams, I would love to hear from all of you about Soami Bagh as well!

Thanks again everyone!
Sound Chaser

[smanwani]

It has become quite apparent and evident to me that Radha Soami and Gurinder are a sham. I'm sure all the other Radha Soami branches are as well and that they're all competing with each other for followers and money.

[um]

@ AR

If people like Mah. Faq. Chand and Shri Nisargadatta had done what you wrote in the first paragraph of the last message, they probably had not become the man we know now..

Their guru was the only thing that mattered to them.

[7.77]

A . . . SO EASY way to know S/HE is a true ONE :
Daily serendipities
or
SHE makes you see HER in ALL nature
or
Hear / BE The Sound at the 432Hz Root overtones
Have tremendous impossible to discuss revelations
or the best
BE THAT ONE

777

PS
She has great power walls at work

[777]

Power Walls
Mighty Firewalls activated when there is insufficient Love or HARM done

777

PS
Best trick is that S.HE is U in temporarely voluntary Amnesia
and always was U
PS2
Today 40° C

[Allsaints]

There is a saying in Punjabi, the vessels vary in size and colour, but they all have black bottom. This applies to all the religious gurus of India. All are the same.

[um]

@ Allsaints

https://www.google.com/search?q=mitti+ki+handi+amazon&sca_esv=9267af3241730e66&sca_upv=1&udm=2&biw=1024&bih=607&ei=Y3ysZsyQHd6Ai-gPldzSyAo&oq=amazon+handi&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiDGFtYXpvbiBoYW5kaSoCCAMyBxAAGIAEGBMyBxAAGIAEGBMyCBAAGBMYCBgeMggQABgTGAgYHjIIEAAYExgIGB5ImDtQAFgAcAF4AJABAJgBAKABAKoBALgBAcgBAJgCAaACEpgDAIgGAZIHATGgBwA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

For those that love to cook in it, they are very much appreciated ...and ..the blacker they become at the bottom the better ...but that is not what you intended to write here ...hahaha

[smf]

Oh dear https://youtu.be/d5VYBPb3d9c?si=pBTAYNFYmnwSAKcf these cults are endlesss

[H.C]

Call Rajiv, I think his name is Maheswari, he grew up at Soami Bagh and knows it all.

408-887-0214

[Sound Chaser]

Thank you H. C.!
But that appears to be a wrong number.
Do you possibly have another phone number, or perhaps some other contact info for Rajiv Maheswari?

Thanks in advance for your further assistance with this!

Sound Chaser

[Sound Chaser]

My Apologies H.C.!

That turned out to be the right phone number after all!

Thanks again!

Sound Chaser

[H.C.]

Sound Chaser, let us know what you find out.

[AlakhAgamAparAkaha]

Q: what sort of experiences has anyone had with the Soami Bagh branch of Radha Soami, the so-called parent line? As I have previously mentioned, I am still holding out some hope that there may be a real Sant Sat Guru someplace.
. .
A: The Soami bagh group has long held the view that as a matter of divine design any successor to a previous sant sat guru must be ascertained by developing one’s own spiritual fitness (parmathi bhag). Consequently imminently departing Soamibagh gurus only give out hints as to who their successor would be. In other words they didn’t openly declare or publically appoint anyone as their successor. The view then at Soamibagh is that the sangat themselves must endeavour to find and decide who is the succeeding sant sat guru. This they call ’interregnum’ (= ‘between reigns’).
. .
Consequently Salig Ram didn’t get widely accepted as the ’successor’ in Agra until about 1890 — which was TWELVE YEARS after the death of Shiv Dayal Singh. Even then it wasn’t unanimously understood or accepted what exactly his role was until after his own death: was he:
a.) the successor or b.) a representative, and just one among many.
. .
The CAC (Central Administrative Council) was set up at Soami Bagh by the person who most quickly became accepted to be Salig Ram’s succesor, viz. the highly educated son of a wealthy and esteemed Brahmin family of Varanasi academics, B.S. Misra. Misra created the CAC to combat the lack of cohesion of the fledgling RS religion due to the plethora of RS initiators. To name five there were: the Sadhu mahant at Soamibagh, Sanmukh Das; the first CAC President, Partap Singh (Chacha Ji); his youngest son Sudarshan Singh; a now unknown devotee called Chanan Singh (he initiated Bibi Rukko when she was living at Panni Gali and serving Radha Ji); and later Salig Ram and Jaimal Singh. (Salig Ram didn’t start initiating anyone until about 1885, seven years after Shiv Dayal’s death, and then not in Soami Bagh but in Allahabad.)
As an example of that lack of sangat cohesion, Salig Ram had written in August of 1895 in his fortnightly newsletter advice for the followers of the fledgling community who had been ’initiated’ by one of the many initiating devotees after the death of Shiv Dayal Singh.
Here is that advice.

. . . . . . . . . . . .

“INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE INITIATED.
For those who have been initiated by Sadhs and Satsangis.
1. Whosoever has a desire in his mind to meet the True Supreme Being and to attain perfect salvation, should, as far as possible, take initiation from the Sant Satguru or Sadh Guru and if he is not able to meet any of those, from a true devoted Satsangi of theirs, whether he is a family man or an ascetic (sadhu) and should begin to perform his practices and, accepting Merciful Radhaswami alone as his Deity, should increase his love for and faith in His Holy Feet. If he does so, Merciful Radhaswami would, in His Grace, establish his contact with the Sant Satguru or Sadh Guru at the appropriate time.
2. If a desire for seva' arises in his mind, he may lovingly engage himself in the seva of Sadhus and Satsangis of the Radhasoami Faith with his body and wealth, but he should surrender his mind to the Holy Feet of Merciful Radhaswami.
…if one has [not] been able to recognize the Sant Satguru… it is generally necessary and desirable for all Satsangis, whether they have been initiated by the Sant Satguru or by some Satsangi, that they should accept Merciful Radhasoami as the Supreme Being, Pefect, Munifiscent [= Param Purusha Puran Dhani] and should develop love for and faith in His Holy Feet and, by engendering faith and love in His Shabda Form, apply themselves eagerly to internal practices. It is only then that one can gradually recognize His Status. And, if the initiating person is the Sant Satguru, he would be able to know about His great glory and eminence and he would develop also love and faith for Him of the same intensity which he should have for the Real and Beloved Son of the Supreme Being Merciful Radhaswami.”

. . . . . . . . . . . .

After the deaths of B.S.Misra and Partap Singh there was a split with eventually M.P.Sinha in Soami Bagh and Anand Swarup in newly formed Dayal Bagh appearing to be the last gurus who had any genuine spiritual insight and internal elevation in the Agra sangats. (Though they were at logger heads over property rights and were involved in decades-long custody battle in the courts which required them to denounce all other lineages apart from their own as bogus pretenders.)
. .
CURRENT PERSONAGES REGARDED AS LIVING GURUS IN SOAMIBAGH
The descendants of Sant Das Maheswari believe he was a hidden ’interregnum’ sant sat guru. Thus there is currently believed to be a continuation of that ’line’ by a clique of Soami Bagh satsangis, but they do not say openly who he is. He is retired and lives in the south of India and visits Soamibagh for bhandaras and special occassions. I won’t say more than that about him. If you are interested I think you might have to trek to India, make enquiries and find those Soami Bagh satsangis who believe in and follow him. You will have to convince them you are a genuine seeker. But… First you will have to get permission to enter Soami Bagh, and the CAC who run it DO NOT recognise this ’lineage’ as authentic, so don’t mention it in your application. Alternatively you could write to the grandsons of S.D. Maheshwari. They have a website.
. .
Then there is the ”hidden” interregnum lineage descended from last officially recognised Soamibagh guru, M.P.Sinha’s son-in-law, Dr. Jatindra Nath Hazra. They also have a currently operating ’guru’ believed to be the bona fide sant satguru. They call themselves the ’Sat Guru Saran Nivas Trust’ and they have meetings near Soami Bagh. Their lving guru is named Ajit Kumar Seth (Malik Ji). But again, you need to know he is not recognised as genuine by the Soami Bagh authorities and their CAC.
. .
There are other cliques with whispered living gurus, but these two have the widest acceptance in Soamibagh.
. .
Then, the CAC ALSO give initiation, but they do so as acknowledged representatives of the Supreme Being Puran Dhani Radhswami. They give the instructions to seekers they consider to be deserving along the lines mentioned by Salig Ram in his 1894 circular. They give out the teachings as they understand them, plus the technique of surat shabd yoga. They do so as representatives of the Supreme Being Radhswami during what they regard as the now eight decades long interregnum.
. .
Finally, all these groups at Soami Bagh believe that Salig Ram discovered a unique reality that no-one had ever revealed before. That means NO-ONE! Not Jesus, not Kabir, not Rumi, not Nanak, not Dadu Dayal, not anyone! They consequently believe that singing the glories of this uniquely-fevealed, utterable, hindi-derived semantic (Radha Swami) and worshipping relics out of an attitude of humble subservience earns merit that will lead to grace being showered upon them.
. .
They also believe that Salig Ram alone of all Shiv Dayal’s disciples was fit to recognise this unique ’spiritual’ reality. That is: not Shiv Dayal’s parents, nor his wife (Radha Ji) nor any of his other devotee siblings (Sardho, Bindraban and Partap) nor any other of his disciples.
If you also believe all that then you will fit in well and you might find a hidden guru there who’s existence is a closely guarded secret.
. .
Good luck 🙂

[Sound Chaser]

Hello AlakhAgamAparAkaha!
I am Sound Chaser, the one who asked Brian to post the questions about Soami Bagh for me!
Thank you SO MUCH!
What you wrote was exceedingly helpful! And basically confirmed some things for me that I already had a strong feeling about!
Thank you so much again! :)

Sound Chaser

[John Wilson]

Hello again everyone!

Thank you to everyone who has responded to this thread!

In the interest of updating those who have asked, I have now been initiated into the august and profound path of Radhasoami Satsang, Soami Bagh, Agra. And I am deeply satisfied with what I have found here.

It has been a very long and arduous journey getting here. I was with several other light and sound teachings off and on over the years. And also many Buddhist, Taoist, Theosophical groups, etc.

And I also spent quite a few years deeply involved with various non-dual teachings as well. And for many of those years, I truly felt that these non-dual teachings were the "Be All And End All" of everything.

I realize that there are some people here who may level various criticisms regarding this teaching. And I totally get that. BELIEVE ME! I totally get that. For, like I said before, it has been a very long and arduous journey for me to finally get where I am today. There have been many, many ups and downs, and some absolutely crestfallen moments when I realized how wrong I had been about certain groups. But now I am fully convinced that, for myself anyway, I have finally and truly found what I have always been looking for.

If anyone here is interested, I suggest that you go to their website, read some of their literature, and then decide whether or not you want to pursue this teaching further.

Here is the link:

https://www.radhasoamifaith.org/

And if anyone has any questions, I would be happy to try and answer them. And if I feel that you would be better served talking to someone who has been on this path a lot longer than I have, I can see about getting you in touch with someone else.

Radhasoami

Sound Chaser

[Jim Sutherland]

@Sound Chaser,… Congrats on finally settling your personal Truths. I am curious if you are the same John Wilson who authored a book published in 2013 “The Truth Will Set You Free.” ? If so, we have quite a bit in common.
If you read all the SoamiBagh books, and still asked for, and received Initiation, I “assume” you agreed to their minimum requirements to (1) leave ALL former Sects and delete from your memory….(2) Agree to injesting Charnamit of the Master’s Spitung , or Foot Wash water , (3) Meditate using Simran of ONLY RADHASOAMI mantra, that grooms you into a genuine Sant Mat Path as opposed to all the other Pseudo imitation branches, and most important,(4) agreed to Tithe 10% of all your income and wealth.
I wrestled with asking for Initiation from them about 30 years ago, after reading all their books published in English, but was unable to honestly commit to the above as my Life commitment, so passed , and took a different direction at the Cross Roads of Life.
I really, really hope you find there what I was looking for after Meditation , or by doing Darshan of the photos of their last Master, Babuji, who died in 1947.
Best Regards,

[John Wilson]

Hello Jim!

Haha! Just to be clear, donating 10 per cent of your income, and drinking the guru's spit or foot wash water are NOT in any way requirements for initiation!

Believe me!

There are probably still those that may feel they get closer to the guru this way, similar to eating prashad that the guru hands you. But that is their business.

I have never been told that donating anything is mandatory. If I decide that I want to donate money, then I will figure out what is comfortable for me. I can't speak to what you may have read about this.

With regards to only following their teachings, that is fine with me. I agree to this because after carefully studying all of their writings, all other teachings are now seen in their proper place by me. But it's not that they ask you to delete anything from your mind. This is, in my opinion anyway, an exaggeration.

I am not the author of the book that you mentioned, but I just looked it up, and it sounds quite interesting. I may end up reading it now, so thanks for that!

And I am just curious. What did you end up going with in terms of a spiritual path?

All the best Jim!

Sound Chaser

[Jim Sutherland]

Hi John, thanks for responding. An answer to your question regarding my path, it has been long and complicated, but exciting. I am now 82, and never came to the Sant Mat Path until I was 45. I was first initiated by Thakar Singh in July 1988, then by Charan Singh in June 1990. I still mediate daily, with the Tithe of my TIME seeking The Lord, but not with my money. I am not, and never was, an absolute Fundamentalist Satsangi, so to speak, and never accepted any man as God in Human Form, but only as my Teacher.
If Brian allows it, here is my response on my blog to questions such as you ask.
Regards,
Jim
Jim's Maze of Seeking God:

As a baby Christian, I was like a lamb being thrown to the wolves, when I first entered the Church arena, after becoming Born Again in April 1977, which changed me in to a “New Creation, crucified with Christ.” I was “Baptised in The Holy Spirit” with evidence of speaking in tongues as per Acts. Chapter 4. In my mind’s eye I considered God the Father in the center of the Universe, with Jesus, the Christ, as the Intercessor between the Father and I. But, as I started to interact with other Christians, I started to add circles in my diagram branching out from the center, where the Father is located. In each of my circles, as I studied the different denominational dogmas, I circled Atonement; Righteousness; Eucharist, or Communion; Justification; Creator; Love; Grace; Faith; Mercy; Eternity; Immortality; Sin; Demons; Angels; Miracles; Church; Temple; Election; Predestination; Fate; Karma, Action or inaction; Reincarnation, Transmigration, Metempsychosis; Incarnation; and Resurrection, and last, but certainly not least, FORGIVENESS.

A couple years study of The Assemblies of God’s Berean Bible School earned me a Graduation Diploma, and a License to Preach by The A/G Denomination, and prayed for many Seekers to reveive the Baptism of The Holy Spirit as I had been gifted. ( that initial Gift is what originally opened me up to “The Kingdom Within” that I became a member of. )

I ended up pastoring a small Assemblies of God Church in Laguna Beach, Ca. , that became much too controlled by the Parent A/G Org. and not allowing me to preach from my heart what I felt, but only their Dogma, so I resigned.

I then enrolled in a large Non-Denominational Seminary, was Ordained, while earning my B.Min., M.Min., and final Th.D. By that time, I was choked up on Fundamentalist Christian Dogma, and resigned from all Organisations and Credentials. It was a hard decision to part Company after all those years of hard work, study, and monitary expenditures, but I am a Free Spirit that can not be harnessed and bridled by ANY Fundamentalist group of Over Seers!

But, then, I started to venture off the beaten Fundamentalist track, and my search took me in many other directions included in the Maze of seeking God in new mysterious areas never before ventured.

I studied Manly Palmer Hall’s writings, and attended many of his lectures, in person, when he was alive. He was the founder of Philosophical Research Society. I studied the writings of Douglas Baker, Barret, The Magus; Maurice Burke; Aurthur Edward Waite, Blavatsky’s Secret Doctrine and Isis Unveiled; Alice Baily, Many Theosophy writings; Lost Continents of Atlantis and Lemuria; I read the entire Tome of the book called Urantia; as well as Eliphas Levi, Lewis Spence; the Matrix books of Val Valarien, Aliester Crowly, Edgar Cayce, which could all fall under the banner of Occultism, plus a Bibliography that could fill pages. All of no interest to non Seekers of the After Life.

Then, I studied the UFO Sects, such as Shirley McLean; Schonfield; Erick Von Daniken; The Hollow Earth Theory; Zechariah Sitchen; Dr. Horn; and most of the main stream UFO Sects along with keeping up to dste with Dr. Richard Greer and Kerry Cassedy of Project Chamelot.

Then, I also investigated Shamanism, starting with Terrence McKenna, progressing out to Spiritualism, Spiritism reading all of Allan Kardec’s book, Channeling, and even read Anton LeVey’s Satanic Bible!

I checked out most of the Christian Cults, as well. Then of course, I subscribed to the Skeptical Enquirer, and gleaned the wit of Paul Kurtz and The Amazing Randy, while I was honing up on Col. Ingersol’s volumes of Atheist books. I fought my way through the maze of Roman Catholicism, wondering if I had made the correct move, when I ventured away from my Catholic roots, and ventured into Protestantism.

Then, I had to be tossed back and forth as a ping pong ball between the Charismatic Pentecostals and Traditional mainline Fundamentalist Protestants. Then I had to decide between Historicity vs. myth vs. Tradition of the Bible. And, now allegory enters into the mix!

Once I found that Christianity gleaned the writings of Eastern religious writings, I was drawn into the maze of Eastern religions, simultaneously, while I was working through the ten year program of the Twelve Rosicrucian (AMORC) Degrees. Then, I took the Three Martinist Degrees as icing on the cake of the Esoteric Christian Maze.

I had to wade through, or sort out Eastern religions, other then the main stream Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, or Islam, I had to read Ram Dass, Charles Tart; study the drug Altered states of consciousness, read Benjamin Crème’s works; Sri Aurobindo; Nitananda; Yogananda; Dr. Paul Brunton; Muktananda; Satia Sai Baba; The Six Systems of Indian Philosophy; Rama Khristna Vedanta; Khrishna Consciousness; Meher Baba and the Sufi Mystic literature; Tibetan Buddhism and the Dali Lama ( Once saw him in person); Taoism; Confucianism; Shintoism; Essenes; Jainism; Transcendental Meditation; Egyptology; Judaism and the Kabbala; all leading me to the Radhasoami Sect!

Then, after being initiated by Thakar Singh, then Charan Singh, I found myself into the Maze of historical bickering among the various Radhasoami Sects, each saying; My Master is the only Perfect Master, and all others are pseudo masters!”

Along the way, while in the Maze, I had owned and read more Gnostic works than many could even imagine, and I went DEEPLY into both the Mormon religion, as well as Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I owned the entire Nicene Church Father’s Series, all 50 plus volumes that ---- quotes from to support his Bible quotes. I have studied the Mind Science religions, such as Religious Science, Unity, and owned most of Ellen G. White’s works, including the 6 volume set of when she published editorials in the newspaper while she was alive. ( I donated most of my books to the local Library early 2023. I am no longer interested in other people’s experiences that I can’t access inside my own Kingdom Within.)

Then, an exhaustive research of all Robert Monroes and TMI’S generous contributies after reading Monroe’s 3 books will never be forgotten.

And, my dear friends and fellow Travelers, the above is only what comes to my immediate mind, of what I remember. I have bought, read, and sold and donated more books, in the past 40 years than the average Christian Church combined! ( Because most of them have not found the liberty to venture outside of their local Dogma.) Thank The Lord alone that my "Karma has run over my Dogma!!

THERE WAS MORE, BUT THIS WAS THE HIGH LIGHT.

Jim Sutherland, A work still in progress, as of 3/24

[John Wilson]

Wow!

That is quite the resume of spiritual paths and literature Jim!

And I must say that my path through life has been somewhat similar. Although, albeit, not quite as extensive as yours.

However, in my case, I have never seen any literature anywhere that even comes close to what is available in Soami Bagh. Especially if someone has an interest in the Sant Mat/Radhasoami teachings.

There is so much more that I could say, but this is an individual journey. And everyone needs to find what is right for themselves.

As for me, I am 65 years young, and I am finally home.

Radhasoami
Sound Chaser

[RS]

Hi John ‘Soundchaser,
Thanks for keeping us updated.
I’m happy for you that you found what you were looking for and feel you have come home. 🙂🙏
I have some questions, if you feel like divulging more details.
1. Did you go to Agra and get initiated by someone or was it via post/phone?
2. Did you receive initiation from a representative of the CAC? Or did you get initiated by one of the hidden ‘interregnum’ gurus?
RS

(P.S. If you’d prefer to reply privately you can contact me via this email address: [email protected])

[John Wilson]

Hello RS!

All that I can really say is that if you feel drawn to this path, read some of the literature, and then if you are really interested in learning more, then contact them via the email address on their website.

https://www.radhasoamifaith.org/

I am truly not trying to sound overly clandestine here. But if there is one thing that I have learned over the the last few months since I began to look into Soami Bagh, it is that this is a very private and personal journey.

In other words, how it unfolds for some people may not be exactly the same as it unfolds for others as they progress on their journey of discovering more about it.

I am sorry if this sounds elusive, but it is really the best that I can do.

I hope that this helps you.

Radhasoami
Sound Chaser

[Jim Sutherland]

@SoundChaser,…..I am curious to know if you caught the Sound, after chasing it, and how long did it take you to catch it, and once caught, did you keep it, and if so, do you still have it 24/7, or only during meditation? 😇
Regards,
Jim Sutherland

[John Wilson]

Hello again Jim!

Once again, I hate to sound elusive, but one is really not supposed to share any details regarding their own inner experiences.

But, suffice it to say that I am very deeply satisfied since finding and getting initiated into Soami Bagh.

There is a very definite difference in what I am experiencing than anything that I have ever experienced before. Including with other light and sound paths that I have been involved with in the past.

There is absolutely no question left in my mind that I have finally found the real thing. At least, for myself anyway.

I hope that this helps you.

Radhasoami
Sound Chaser

[777]

Hi Jim
So nice to read you again and
again
It s only recently I checked the 432Hz Frequency Scale of Shabd
in all octaves.
Shabd is everything in our Surat Shabd Yoga
My actual wife and I were initiated in 1874
She then was my Sister
She brought Seth Shiv Dayal with her to our home
in Punjab when HE said to me :

"U r bound for Hell" . . ?

I told this long ago here

We respect the Agra line deeply
I placed also Seth's Agra Sar Bachan Prayer about Sound
here for the group
Shabd Yoga is so wonderful
Sorry Um -
have a nice coffee in an Amsterdam coffee shop
777

[um]

@777

Why do you write about sorry to me???
Did you do something wrong???

[Jim Sutherland]

@John Wilson,…your 65 and are still doing what your “supposed to do” because some one shared a few secrets with you in order to keep you enslaved in order to control you? I am 82 and have decided not to take any of my secrets to the grave, just because those who told me about them are all now dead, so can’t rebuke me for sharing with Neophites, of which you are one, if you just was Initiated. But this is just between you and I. Don’t tell any one I told you, O.K.? If your meditation quickly turns boring and dry, here is a little help:
Meditation for Neophytes, who have not found a satisfying Technique nor Teacher.
I have been using the same Meditation Technique since April, 1988. I still meditate 2-3 hours daily, using exactly the same Technique that many Teachers still share with all their Initiates. NADA, ….i.e. listening to the Sound. In the Initiation I took in 1988, we were told there are 10 or more sounds, but were asked to focus on only two., i.e. the Conch, ( a big Sea shell ) and the Bell. Actually, the Conch sounds like a big sea shell, when lightly plugging the right ear with the thumb. It also sounds like Jet Engines when flying. But that is no longer needed once the Ringing Radiance of the Bell is heard. Seasoned Initiates usually hear the Bell 24/7. The Path of The Masters, or NADA Yoga, is the Path of the Sound Current. ALL Lights, and Visuals originate from the Sound Current, which is called by many different Names by various Sects.

When initiated in to this Sound & Light Meditation, we were instructed to spend 3/4 of first time, focusing at the 3rd Eye, looking in to the black Void, while doing “Simran”, which means Repetition of the Mantra we ALL were given, as Initiates of this lineage of Living Masters. During this time doing Simran, the very same internal visions at the forehead, inside, is duplicated in almost every “ successful” Meditation, by ALL Initiates of this Lineage , who took the Vows , and continue to do their best to keep them to their ability. The internal Signs are specs and flashes of silver white light, of various shapes, then a golden Sun or Sphere, which then forms a Silver White Moon inside, or within the Sun, ......until the Golden Sun dissolves , leaving only the Moon,....until it morphs in to a swirling Silver White rotating Cloud, with a black hole in the center that either sucks you in, or you rapidly fly thru the black hole to rest in the Black Void, where all visuals and sounds cease. This is the Region of Samadhi , of Hindus, Nirvana of the Buddhists, Sat Nam of the Sikhs, Shekhena Glory of the Hebrews, Heaven of the Christians, or Sach Khand of the Radhasoamis, or the I AM THAT of the Advaitists. Only Awareness remains there. Only the “Observer”views all observed material impermanent visions , of people, places and things, But this “death” in this Void, is only temporary, while traveling there to die while living, ......until the physical body dies, and the knotted mind/soul remains in the Void , until Reincarnation back in to Duality, ( to further become Missionaries of our Higher Soul Selves to balance Karmas.) , or ascend to higher Spiritual Regions and remain for further merging in to the Observer. . During Meditation, after the 3/4 time is completed doing Simran, or Mantra repetition, silently, , focused at the forehead behind the eyes, ( For Initiates, we ALL use the same Mantra, but for those not initiated, I suggest using your own favorite Mantras during Simran) , then comes the time to devote the last 1/4 time to doing listening to the Sound, or the Ringing Radiance of the Audible Life Stream. This is similar to doing “Mindful Meditation” while listening to the Sound. Using a Recliner Chair, as I do, its very easy and practical to raise my knees up far enough to support resting my elbows on my knees, instead of sitting on the ground, or floor in the Indian Squat position we were shown at Initiation. Or, using the T - Stick to support the elbows as Yogananda taught in his Home Study Lessons. In the Recliner, minimal change of position, or interfering with exiting Samadhi, or the Void , interferes with transition from Simran to Bahjun. Once the elbows are resting on the Knees, then, the RIGHT Thumb LIGHTLY plugs the hole of the RIGHT EAR, ( experiment with how much pressure is needed to listen to the variance in Sounds). The LEFT thumb should NOT plug the left ear, but only rest on the ear flap. The reason only the right ear is plugged, is that we are instructed to listen to the sounds coming from the right of the 3rd eye first, until it centers in the middle. Now, we were told that there may be 10 different Sounds, but once the right ear is plugged, the TWO Sounds to listen for , is first, the Conch, ( sounds like large sea shell, or roaring wind, or Jet engine while flying),......until the Sound becomes the ringing Radiance of the Bell tone, with out any breaks in the Ringgging! Once this Rinnnngggging Sound has been reached, most Initiates continue hearing the ringing Radiance 24/7 when ever the mind is unoccupied by work, or normal duties. THEN the Visuals of people, places, and things start being visualized, inside the Astral Realms. From here, all of our experiences are different, and vary, depending on our past lives, memories, and Samsaras and Karmas. Hope this helps my Fellow Travelers in the Journey of Souls.
Here are a few more tips, for accessing the Astral Planes for new Initiates, or Meditators. It really doesn’t matter who your Master or Lineage happens to be, as long as you are using the NADA Meditation Technique, focusing at the black Void at the Third Eye , while doing Mantra Simran, or Repetition. Before the whirling Silver White Multi-pointed Diamond appears, it usually first manifests as a greyish white cloud. To increase the size and clarity of the cloud, after it appears inside the forehead, move the cloud up to the Crown Chakra for a few seconds, by raising your physical eyes up, but kept closed, then back to the center; then down towards the heart for a few seconds, then, back to the center; then to the right for a few seconds, then back to the center; then to the left and back to the center. Continue to manipulate the cloud like this several more times until it will SEEM to disappear! But don’t quit doing repetition or Simran. The cloud has not disappeared. What is happening is, YOU have entered the Cloud, and should now be watching for the Silver White Star Gate inside the Cloud. Then, as you keep focusing at the tiny black hole in the center of the Star,....either you will travel through the Star in to the Astral Plane, or it will seem to travel towards you, engulfing you. Once your in the Astral Planes, all experiences will be unique and individual ,depending on your individual Karmas. Bon Voyage of becoming the Observer of the observed!

Jim Sutherland

[RS]

Hmmmm? 🤔
So on September 13, 2024 at 11:00 AM you wrote:

“And if anyone has any questions, I would be happy to try and answer them... ~ Posted by: John Wilson

But when you get asked two rather simple and non-intrusive questions* that ONLY you can definitively answer, you clam up. 😮

One question is about geography. The other about practical procedure.
If even stuff like that has to be secret, what does it say about the nature of that which you have become involved with?

*[Q1. Did you go to Agra and get initiated by someone or was it via post/phone?
Q2. Did you receive initiation from a representative of the CAC? Or did you get initiated by one of the hidden ‘interregnum’ gurus?]

[um]

@RS

and what if his story is just fiction?
A story meant to make people curious about the Agra branch and draw them towards it?

Read all his messages that started out with the rhetoric question ...do people have information about agra branch, followed by ..I contacted it, got initiated ...and found what i was after ..

something like that.

to good to be true ...

[Jim Sutherland]

@um,…I think you nailed

[777]

JIM Wrote
Before the whirling Silver White Multi-pointed Diamond

That s something one can experience
even without initiation
Thes diamonds suddenly appearing
unbelievable Cristal Clear and they are a tunnel
displaying total other universes that we long ago had co-created
with our then great Q.E. power.

Decennia ago My wife saw in such a Diamond Sawan and Charan together manifesting
unbelievable manifestations - like Cleaning the House )
Myself being more auditif , I prefer pulsing shabds <
and so it is
A Delhi friend of mine last year attending Gurinder s Satsang
and I had said
Don t look the TV Screens, Look to HIM even if you are so far away that the Turban is a millimetre;
Then he had the diamonds too - but one has to attend to our 6th chakra to hold it
later He was successful
but the DIAMONDS. are a great sign that One is underway
on a Path
together with countless serendipities
When we feel LOVE all this starts to happen

[777]

At the sudden JASDEEP Darshan in Beas
I guess Sawan has dropped this diamonds by the thousands
That s one of the ways real Sat Gurus are hand shaking

[um]

@777

There was a man that was terminal Ill by the name of Ehret. He cured himself by eating grapes. Upon that result, he was convinced that it did not only cure that particular illness but all his illnesses and not only him but everybody.

You see these things do happen but in contrast to them I believe that their personal desire, motivation, to live on cured them.

Upon "miraculous" happenings contributed to the "power" of mystics many answered by saying ..your believe has saved you.. These days Faqir chand in the Sant Mat lineage has explained it in detail.

The "do like me"..."follow me" ... "i know best" etc has by now become a global industry.

My point ...

All crows have to live their own life and they can ...if only they drink enough coffee.

[John Wilson]

@everyone who has responded.

When I first enquired here for assistance with researching into Soami Bagh, I was most certainly sincere. For as I have mentioned, I have been through the mill, as I know many of you have also, with various spiritual teachings.

And as it turned out, there were 2 people here who responded that turned out to be exceedingly helpful. Namely, H. C., and AlakhAgamAparAkaha.

And to them I owe an immense debt of gratitude.

One or both of them asked me to post here with regards to whatever I had ended up finding out and experiencing with my investigations into Soami Bagh.

So since I am immensely satisfied, I decided to let them know that here. But that is the extent of it.

I have no desire whatsoever to convince anyone else of what I have found. It is beauty beyond measure for me. But that is just me. It may or may not be that for anyone else.

And the other thing is, there are many things that I have been specifically asked not to speak about. And I apologize if some of you interpret that as me. or the people at Soami Bagh, deliberately trying to sound mysterious to try and draw attention to Soami Bagh. For I sincerely give you my word that these are not my intentions.

So if anyone here is interested, go to their website which I have already included in a couple of my previous posts here, and try and get In touch with someone who knows far, far more than I do about this path.

For, after all, as Jim Sutherland pointed out, I am the merest beginner on it.

And if you are not interested, then just continue on with whatever your personal journey is for you.

And lastly, please, no one take it personally if I no longer respond to challenges, criticisms, etc. For it was never my intention to start posting here just to fence about this.

I sincerely wish all of you the best with your ongoing experiencing and search for truth. And with your lives in general.

Radhasoami
Sound chaser

[um]

@ John Wilson

What you do here is just a variation of a remarkable psychological mechanism, that people upon starting something new immediately start spreading the "good news" having found "the answer"

Not everybody does but a particular group.

I have seen it done by smokers, drinkers, drug users, buyers you name it and of course religious spiritual converters.

It was done by followers of Bagwan Rajnees, Sai Baba, of course the followers of the different branches of sant mat etc etc .

It seems that those that do it feel more comfortable with their own choice when they can spread the "good" news.

[um]

@ John Wilson

Your answer made me think of of the correspondence I had years ago with the Agra Branch when I asked them to send their books, They kindly did so and even that charming little booklet with the red stamp inside ..."for satsangis only". ..

In that correspondence they never asked or suggested me anything at all.

[John Wilson]

Hello Um,

You make a very interesting point. I realize how what I posted could almost sound like reverse psychology, just designed to pique people's interest in Soami Bagh.

And at the risk of sounding like I am just continuing on in this vein, the great and humorous irony in all of this is that I am sure, according to the long time members of Soami Bagh, I should not be posting anything at all that may be interpreted as any kind of proselytizing. Which, apparently you mistook me for attempting to do.

If I had this to do over again, I would email Brian, and ask him to get in touch with H. C. and AlakhAgamAparAkaha. And then see if they were open to my communicating my findings with them privately with regards to what I discovered for myself with Soami Bagh.

However, what's done is done. So my apologies if I came across as some sort of clandestine operative for Soami Bagh. That was absolutely not my intention.

And, of course, you may choose to interpret even this current post from me as just more of the same subterfuge. I get it. Believe me, I get it.

So in the future, I will be a lot more careful about with whom I share my experiences with over this.

All the best to you Um!
John

[um]

@ Jogn Wilson

I have seen it done when the Beatles brought the east to the west. With the drugs, the music came the asian philosophies etc.

Also within the different sant mat branches not withstanding the repeated advice not to spread the messages and leave the people alone. If they come they are welcome.

I have referred to that attitude several times, citing the late MCS stressing the audience, after being asked whether they should introduce sant mat to their children, NOT to do so but instead ..Give them a good example an let them grow.

Obvious people are not at all interested and just go on spreading the messages as missionaries ... it must be the impact of their christian education cq culture.

Anyway ..I keep my impression about what you are doing realizing that what yo wrote can be just as it is and true ..it is not that important neither for me nor for you I suppose.

Thank you for taking the trouble to explain your point again. and your good wishes.

[John Wilson]

You are quite welcome Um!

And believe me, I get what you are talking about!

I have been involved in a lot of situations where I was attempted to be brainwashed, manipulated, gaslighted, etc. And when groups of people, or individuals that are quite consciously attempting to do this to someone realize that it's not working, or perhaps that their manipulations were working for a while, but then their efforts started to become transparent, then the manipulators start employing subtler and subtler techniques.

I cannot stress enough how much that I truly believe that just because something is right for me, it does not in any way mean that it is necessarily right for anyone else.

And I would absolutely refuse to a part of anything that would involve any kind of attempt at manipulating others into any kind of viewpoint. Spiritual, religious, political, social, or otherwise.

Anyway, enough said!

Keep your guard up, and keep on trucking Um!
John

[Jim Sutherland]

@John Wilson,…for what ever it worth,….Who ever has his/her Inner Radiant Master manifest inside, that Master is their OWN Soul Self, and no other. THAT will be the Master who meets us at death, and escorts us back to our Soul family of past incarnations archived in our Higher Selves, which are actually our Causal Bodies, where we were sent from, to become the Missionaries , that we presently all are, sent to balance more karmas. The fact that we are here now, proves that our Higher Self/Causal bodies still have more negative karmas to balance. Once all karmas are balanced, our Higher Self/Causal bodies will ascend to purer Spiritual Regions, i.e. the 3 higher regions above Sat Nam/Sach Khand , mentioned by the Soami Bagh Masters.
In following the inner sigh posts I described in my Meditation technique to Neophytes, I shared , these were ALL experiences I have had off and on, over the years during my meditations.
I am not absolutely positive, but I am fairly certain that the Multi- pointed Silver White brightest Star with the black hole in the center I called the “Star Gate” is our Higher Self/Causal Body. RADHASOAMI /Christ , is on the other side , waiting to meed our Karma Free balanced Higher Selves/Causal bodies , where we will be assigned our next Missions.

[John Wilson]

@ Jim Sutherland

Thank you for everything that you have posted for me! Both here, and in your much more extensive previous post!

I really appreciate your taking the time to write all this out for me. And I shall take it under advisement with respect to my current spiritual path.

Thanks again Jim! And all the best to you!

Radhasoami
John

[Jim Sutherland]

@John, you’re very welcome. It’s a pleasure to rarely be able to meet and assist real genuine Spiritual Seekers, especially here, among Ex Satsangis and Atheists, and skeptics.
The only Spiritual Seekers that fail to get any results of the promises, are those who either refuse to practice, keep the Vows, or just give up and quit, Winners never quit,…..and quitters never win.
Just because some see results quickly, whereas others, like many Exers here who have practiced for years, with out obtains the promises, really have no baring on individual comparisons, because of uneven past Karmas.
As one of my favorite Bible Verses is, “The First shall be last, and the last, first! “
RADHASOAMI,
Jim Sutherland

[John Wilson]

Thank you so much Jim!

I truly appreciate everything that you have shared with me through all of your posts here!

I actually went as far as to copy and paste everything that you said here regarding the inner planes, etc.. So that I will always have it in the event that it is no longer available here, for whatever reason. Albeit, I am sure that this is very unlikely.

And forgive me if I am not remembering what you said about this if you already made this clear in your earlier posts here. But at the end of the day, what was the Sant Mat/Radhasoami group, or who was the Sant SatGuru that you feel that you received the most benefit from?

Thanks in advance for responding to this Jim! And thanks again for everything else!

Radhasoami
John

[Jim Sutherland]

@John Wilson,…and any others interested in Spiritual topics,…..The 1st Guru that initiated me was Thakar Singh. He did it in person, by rubbing his thumb on my fore head, and plugging my right ear with his thumb. I heard faint ringing , when he did it, which soon faded as soon as he moved away. But I had previously initially heard the sound from him at a public event, which I posted about here in the past. I’ll search for it, and repost it for you if I find it later. It’s explains a lot more there.
Meanwhile, the following is also important to consider, which I posted a couple of years ago. We should never get fooled.
Inspiration, Thoughts, New Ideas, ...HOW & WHERE Do They Come From? If We Are Puppets, WHO Is Puppet Master?

I have been feeling like writing something about the mystery and methodology of how we manage to suddenly "catch", or "feel" thoughts, especially those that appear new to us, or that suddenly appear out of "some where?"

In order to arrive at even the minutest speculations about this subject, we must first establish a few assumptions.

1) "Something, or Some One," sends those thoughts to us, and are successful of penetrating our skulls, and entering our brains.

2) Or, No one or nothing sends anything to us, and we are only parroting information that we have either read, heard, or seen some where during our life here on earth, in these bodies.

3) If the thoughts are being sent to us, than by Whom, and how? God? ( He/She/It/ETs/spirits/Angels/Messengers/Demons/Aliens/Magicians/Shamans/Witches/Warlocks, humans/animals/???) The list could be endless, depending on on the belief system of the person receiving the

I realize, and know, that after almost 80 years on earth, in this body, I have read, heard, seen, and experienced stuff that at least, gives me some foundation to weigh, any inner inspiration, or messages, or thoughts that suddenly appear to me, seemingly, out of no where.

I ofter wonder, why my inspiration and ideas seem to be so boring, or have such little value to the world, and hardly worth sharing with any one, other than my captive audience of Facebook friends? I also wonder if great people of powers, such as Presidents, Dictators, Kings, Queens, Business people, receive their thoughts the same way.

Well, I am finally arriving at the place in my life, where I am more willing to share exactly what I believe, ( with some), but not all), rather than trying to please all, and tell every one what they want to hear, in support of what they already believe, and are always looking for other confirmation to support their own belief systems.

For me, I believe in an infinite Creator, or Cosmic Power, that no human being has ever fully encountered, or seen, or had conversations with, face to face. ( Including Mormons) WE Christians, refer to this Creator as God, but I could fill pages of words used as Titles for this Creative Power I choose to call God.

But, since I have never saw God, face to face, ( if another face is actually even involved), I prefer to understand my Creator as THE ONE ETERNAL SPIRIT, WHO has created every thing that has ever been created, and continues to expand creation, as I write, and you read!

I can't even imagine for a second, how materialists, or Atheists, are able to continue living life here, with out any faith in their survival at death of the body, or their belief that it all ends here, so I won't even go there, or comment about such a drab and boring subject.

I believe that my Creator, God, not only has created everything here, on earth, but has also created, and controls all creation in the Universe and Galaxies! I surely can't explain how, or the mechanics, or methodology, or reason God creates, but I know every living thing has a portion of God Anatomy, in order to be a living specie, other wise, no life would be present any where.

But, I AM NOT GOD, nor ever expect to be, in spite of Eastern religious belief, taken from mostly Hindu literature. I do believe that God clones spirits from SPIRIT, and that spirit is called Christ, by we Christians. That spirit is called by other Names by other religions and sects as well.

So, to me, or my understanding, GOD is ETERNAL SPIRIT, and each living entity has been cloned from that SPIRIT, and have been given a portion , and have become living "souls." The Bible records that God breaths His Breath into humans , and they become living souls! It also records that the spirit of man is the Candle of The lord!" ( Don't want to Bible thump, or preach, so as not to offend the reader and chase him/her away.)

So, BEFORE that spirit is breathed into humans ( I will only discuss human spirits, on this post, or it can get real controversial), that spirit, was created by SPIRIT at some time in the past, but no one including me, knows when. But, once created, that spirit is Eternal! That I believe, and is what I choose to live by. So, considering NO ONE really KNOWS just where God resides, or where "Heaven" really is located, individual spirits that God has created in the past, are spirits when not materialized, but are "souls" once they have incarnated into HUMAN bodies. So, again, after God breaths Breath into humans, they become living souls.

OK, so far, so easy to understand! So, humans are born, live life, and die. Its all part of the process in the "Play of Consciousness." So, as soon as the body dies, and the spirit again is released from the body, since it is Eternal, it re-enters the spirit realm. Religions argue about where spirit goes. But, for now, let's just agree that it goes some where, and is no longer in the human body.

Now these spirits, too numerous to even number, are still controlled by Eternal Creator, SPIRIT, i.e. God. As in earth life, we each have different agendas, lives, jobs, etc. etc. There is always some sort of "Chain of Command", regardless of what Nationality or country humans find them selves born in. So, someone is always communicating with humans from a material level, and teaching them, but what about thoughts, and intuition, or inspiration again?

Well, there are some egotists who have the audacity to think they have God's private Hot Line, and receive their instructions directly from Him! But, that's not my belief.

I believe that I receive my thoughts from dis-incarnated spirits, who were once humans, or at least, the thoughts that I receive that I can recognise, or sort out to have originated on earth. Just as here on earth, not every human has the same knowledge, morals, or beliefs. Why would spirits become geniuses when leaving human bodies that were idiots? Spiritual growth is a constant progression, forward, towards SPIRIT, so I weigh any thoughts, or messages I receive, based on my experience and learning while here. Of course, Reincarnation and Karma have to be considered, otherwise, no telling where such thoughts could be coming from.

I have read all the possibilities of where different humans receive their thoughts, messages, and instructions from.

Jesus, Jehovah, Allah, Buddha, Mohammad, the Virgin Mary, Catholic Saints, Indian Gurus, human spirits asleep and Astral projecting, Remote Viewers, Shamans, Aliens, demons, Angels, Prophets, Saints, etc. etc. But, we have to be reasonable enough, to settle the fact that none of us are important enough in Eternal Creation to have the only Direct Channel to SPIRIT. Sorry, Pentecostals, speaking in Tongues isn't gonna enlighten you, or make you God, or enable you to get any private Spiritual information worth trying to change anything in the world.

I believe the Chain of Command is used in the Spiritual World by Creator SPIRIT GOD, Who uses spirits to continue the Play of Conciousness. Other planets, in other Galaxies, where ever life forms, in material form exist, also have incarnated spirits cloned from SPIRIT. So, I can't remember ever receiving any messages from any of them, or I'd have a whole lot more interesting information to share with Y'all right now, but, meanwhile, until I do receive any thing of interest, I remain, and bid Y'all pleasant and Eternal Journies, in SPIRIT.
Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

@John Wilson,…..here is the post I promised to search for. I first posted this in the mid 90s!
Now, for what I found and did not find, in my Space Cadet tours:
As stated before, I never saw any light nor heards any sound before initiation. At initiation, and being free of flesh foods for 90 days, alcohol and drugs for 10 years, I did see a few small "sparks" of light and did hear some "conch or sea shell" sounds when Thakar stuck his thumb in my ear!
After I got home and started to practice on my own, using the simran and Bajan technique, I saw flases of light that lasted longer, and heard sound that was louder. I took my lessons from Sawan's book, "Spiritual Gems." I spent two years meditating under thakar's regime, both home and with others at his meetings, but was never able to get any further then the flashes of light nor hear any sound without plugging my ears with my thumbs. Many of Thakar's desciples carried around "bajan sticks" everywhere with them. It was a stick shaped like a cross or tee about 3 ft. high. you could sit down in a chair and put or rest your arms on the cross at the top of the stick, and plug your ears with your thumbs for long periods, without exhausting your arms. It seems not very many meditaters I saw in Thakar's group spent much time in bajan. they mostly used the sticks, or just sat in chairs plugging their ears, and many used real ear plugs. I tried all of the above, but never got beyond the flases of light, not conch sound only when the ears were plugged. So, boredom sat in after a couple of years, and I was either ready to jump the fence to greener pastures, or quit, altogether. I talked to many Kirpal initiates who had come to Thakar, and most of them were on the same experince level as I, i.e. bored!! I can't ever remember meeting Thakar on the inside. During my early attemps at meditation, I did see many phantam like people I didn't recognize, and even demon like creatures who taunted me! I also felt like I was always off balance, or was ready to lift off my meditation chair, but never really did. I would seem to fall asleep, and my head would fall forward onto my chest, and I would wake up choking or gasping for air, as my wind pipe would be cut off. I read where a master tied his hair to a tree, so his head would stay up, but, I am bald, so that woudn't work for me! So, I tilted my recliner chair I was meditating in just back far enough, so that my head would not fall on my chest, but my spine would stay straight. But, as BAB testified about her meditation expierinces, there was mostly a lot of snoring. At the satsang meeting, we would meditate as a group, and there would be many snoring! so, doubts began to set in for me, and I started to expolre new possibilities. I read Darshan Singh's books, went to a couple of his meetings. I didn't likle his looks, and his talks never got a hook in me. I read Ajib Singh's books, and liked them, and sent for his tapes. He didn't speak English, so needed an interpreter, and I just couldn't feel any heart strings pulling me in his direction. As I said, I was reading Agra books, and enjoyed them, but RSSB books really moved my soul the most! I began to feel I wanted to find how I could get initiation from Charan. ( Before I forget, when I finally did get initiated by Roland DeVries by proxy for Charon, I was first surprised that the simran was the same, but he went into more detail about the bajan posture. The reading of the initiation cerimony from charan was moving and interesting for me, but in all, I was dissapointed in the simplicity of the initiation itself, as it seemed to be just a carbon copy of Thakar's and I had already wasted two years using that method without any significant or satisfying results. I left there actually not very encouraged that I would get any more then I already had.

I went home and started the same old meditation routine, but just changed my visualization from Thakar to Charan. It was difficult to make the transition at first, because I had seen Thakar many times in person, and even had been laser beam zapped by him, but had never seen Charan in person. But, I bought his videos at satsang, and every cassette tape that was available and begain to view the tapes. The transition begain to really take a hold on me, and after listening to hundreds of his tapes with all the usual Q & A sessions in India, I became an "Arm Chair Desciple." I can't really say I fell in love with Charan, long distance, because he had already left the body before we had a chance to establish any real relationship such as most of you core satsangees had with him, but I did really develope a very strong fondness for him. ( I will try and describe my present feeling for him and reasons in a later post.)

I must say, after what I considered the boring initiation by Roland DeVries,( I have always wondered if he reads these posts, or if he might even be an Xer or at least a Lurker on the fence?) I must confess my meditation expierience took off in leeps and bounds as I applied the time sitting. I religiously sat from 4:30 AM until 7:00 AM for seven years. My job schedule allowed me the liberty of doing so, but, I changed jobs, and could no longer keep any definite schedule, and until now, my meditations were hit and miss, 30 min. to an hour here and there.

But, I progressed to large flases of light, even like lighning bolts, as Sawan said would happen. I first saw bright light, bright as the sun, a golden color. Then, beyond the sun, I saw a silvery white sphere, that looked like the moon, Sawan said that would be there. Please note, I never saw everyhing all at once, and it took about five years before I progressed past the moon. Then, after the moon, I saw what I think Sawan refered to as The Star. For me, the star was not 5 pointed, but it actually looked like a glittering diamond, to a silvery white glittering lotus flower. There was a black center in the star, and I fought to keep my focus on the center looking at the black hole. Suddenly, either the star started moving towards me real fast, or I started to be sucked ito the vortex of the black hole in the star. I don't know which, to this day. But, with a lot of practice, I finally was sucked through the center of the star, and that's when the real experiences began! Don't ask me what plane of level or realm I was on, I just don't know.

But, after I broke through the "Black Hole" of the Lotus, I seemed to be in outer space, but the sky was a very bright blue, more blue then any blue sky I have ever experienced. Plus, I was traveling at a very high rate of speed. I felt like I was still sitting in the meditation position, and like I was on a magic carpet. I fought to maintain my balance as it felt like I kept slipping off the carpet and would turn on my side or up side down. I kept focussing right at the center but, was able to see a round planet of some type on my left far ahead, and also another larger planet, (round) on my right, far ahead of me. I was moving so fast, that I actually felt (or seemed to) feel the wind in my face and my hair, (what little I had left) blowing in the wind. When the speed increased to WARP speed, I started to panic, and looked back from where I came from, and as God is my withness, I actually saw the earth back there with all the water and land masses, just like we see from the space shots. I really paniced, then, and.......,ZAPP! I woke up back in by body, or back from the space cadet trip, at least. Now, if all those experiences were the results of just brain neurons firing, I sure seemed to have a lot of input and control on the metodology of having taken the trip. This was my peak experience, and I only went that far out once. But, I spent many more years trying to get there and beyond, with out the success again. I was able to (and am still able) to get to the star, but am never allowed to go through the black hole, or portal again. ( Guess after giving away my experience to ya'll, I won't even see any more flases or specks of light, but, I'm OK with that, too.)

I also had many OBEs, and went through walls, ceilings, through the roof, and rode my magic carpet over the houses in my neighborhood. It seemed I always kept picking up speed to WARP until I paniced, and ZAPP! I landed back in my body in my meditation chair with a noticeable THUD.

Well, that's the high lights of my meditation experiences, for what ever its worth to the club. I trust I may also be put into the "Lunny" catagory by some here, along with other past posters who chose to bare more of their expiernces than some are ready to hear, but, that's OK. As they say, "different strokes for different folks."

I must say, before I move on, none of these past experiences presently make me feel any more spiritual nor stroke my ego. I only witness that they happened to me, and I am still able to get at least to the star, using the RSSB technique described by Sawan in "Spiritual Gems." Will it save me from The Wheel of 84?" You be the judge.
Jim Sutherland

[John Wilson]

WOW!!!

THANKS SO MUCH FOR ALL OF THIS JIM!

I have also copied and pasted these last 2 great posts from you so I will always have all of this to go back to!

You are certainly extremely experienced with all of this!

I will try and share more here about what my own journey has been like as I continue along with where I am at now. I actually wrote out a rather lengthy post concerning some of my earlier experiences with Eckankar, as well as some other groups. And I was originally going to ask Brian to post that here in his RS blog for everyone.

But now a lot has changed since I first wrote all of that out. So it is back to being still a work in progress for now!

Thanks again for everything Jim!

Radhasoami
John

[Jim Sutherland]

@John, ….I have a very good friend in Australia, who was a high Degree Eckist for decades. He left Eckankar after coming across David Lane’s book, exposing Eckankar, and tried to make friends with the Ex Satsangis on Lane’s forum. He was run off the site, almost in Litigation! A mentally ill female went beserk against Lane, the Aussie, and me. Story best left forgotten. Jim Sutherland

[Sound Chaser]

Hello again, AlakhAgamAparAkaha!

Thank you so much again for your complete and well-thought-out comments regarding Soami Bagh!

I would love to discuss Soami Bagh further with you.

Can you please reach out to me at my email address?

[email protected]

Thank you so much in advance for your time with this AlakhAgamAparAkaha!

Best regards,

Sound Chaser