Mass hysteria isn't all that different from religious groupthink

During the 35 years that I was a member of an India-based religious organization, Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), one of the things that I liked most about that experience was how I felt like I was part of a giant family.

A family not in the usual sense, but in the sense of a group of people who had much in common, who shared a similar view of reality, who trusted each other, who helped each other, who looked up to a father figure -- the RSSB guru, which made us sort of like brothers and sisters.

All that felt good at the time. In retrospect, though, there were some downsides.

If someone strayed from the RSSB tenets, such as drinking a glass of wine at a party, there would be gossipy talk about this "sin" behind the person's back. Likewise, questioning the validity of the RSSB teachings was frowned upon. That was supposed to happen before someone was initiated into the RSSB fold, not afterward, as initiation was viewed as an unbreakable bond between the guru and disciple.

(Since reincarnation was assumed, the guru supposedly took it upon himself to shepherd the disciple back to God in a maximum of four lifetimes, less if the disciple was cooperative.)

So the flip side of a communal sense of belonging was an intolerance of thinking and behavior that deviated from the RSSB norm. This is a familiar characteristic of groups, since there has to be some fairly firm boundaries between what the group is and isn't, or the "group" fails to live up to its name, being merely a collection of individuals.

I got to pondering this while reading a chapter in David Robson's book, The Expectation Effect, called "The Origins of Mass Hysteria."

The chapter starts off with a description of how in May 2006 "Portugal was beset by mysterious outbreaks of illness." Only in teenagers, who experienced dizziness, breathing difficulties, and skin rashes. Three hundred students across the country were affected within a few days. No cause could be found, until:

Inquiries eventually revealed that a popular teen soap, Morangos com Acucar (Strawberries with sugar), was to blame. In the days before the first reported cases, the main characters on the show had been infected by a life-threatening virus that had led to very similar symptoms.

Somehow the "virus" had jumped from the small screen to a handful of viewers, creating real physical symptoms -- despite the fact that the illness in the program was totally fictional. These children had then passed it on to their classmates, leading the cases to multiply. Portuguese adults were unlikely to have been dedicated viewers of the melodrama, so they were less likely to develop the disease.

Scientists call this kind of outbreak, with no physical vector, a "mass psychogenic illness." (Whereas "psychosomatic" can refer to our mental state exacerbating existing symptoms, "psychogenic" means that the origin is purely psychological.)

Robson goes on to explain that "mirror neurons" in the brain enable us humans to internalize the physical and mental states of other people. If we see someone smiling, we feel happier. If we see someone frowning, we feel sadder. This doesn't have to happen consciously. 

Without our even noticing it, the presence of another person can therefore change our body as well as our mind. And these bodily effects apparently have a purpose -- they increase our understanding of what the other person is feeling.

Of course, most religious groups use rituals to foster a strong sense of commonality and shared purpose. When I went to India in 1977 to see my guru, Charan Singh, in person for the first (and only) time, it didn't take long into my two-week stay for me to feel like I was part of a community of kindred spirits.

When we ate in the dining hall, we all had much in common. When we performed volunteer work (seva), such as carrying sand on our heads in baskets to fill in ravines for an expansion of the spiritual community, we felt like members of a family, not strangers. When many thousands of people would gather for a discourse by the guru, all eyes were focused on him, leading to a shared experience.

All this felt magical. Those two weeks I spent in India were like none I'd experienced before, or since. The atmosphere of the Dera (how the spiritual community was called) seemed to be permeated by the guru's love and tenderness. So how could this be likened to a mass hysteria event?

Well, because as soon as I arrived at the Dera, I was influenced by everybody I came into contact with, just as each visitor was. What they were feeling, I soon felt. What they were thinking, I soon thought. Not completely, obviously, since we still had our unique minds and inclinations. 

But since we'd all embraced the RSSB teachings, or we wouldn't have journeyed in India to spend time with the guru, there was a groupthink foundation that only became stronger under the influence of the ritualistic atmosphere of the Dera. It would have been very difficult to resist, not that I wanted to.

I'll end with a passage from Robson's book that illustrates the power of shared feelings. Fascinating stuff that's hard to believe, but it seems to be true.

As an illustration of how far someone's feelings can spread, imagine that you became friends with someone with an astonishingly positive attitude, who is incredibly satisfied with her life. You might feel a bit glad for her, but could her joy really bring lasting happiness to your life, too?

According to one detailed longitudinal survey -- the Framingham Heart Study -- the answer is yes. Because of your regular interactions with her, you would be 15 percent more likely to achieve a high score on the survey's measure of life satisfaction -- despite no direct change in your immediate circumstances.

How about your friend's friend? The same study found that their happiness will be passed on to your friend, who passes it on to you, increasing your chances of happiness by about 10 percent in the coming months. Your current satisfaction with life is even influenced by a friend of a friend of a friend, who can increase your chance of happiness by about 6 percent.

These are people you almost certainly have never even met, and you probably don't even know of their existence, but they are nevertheless influencing your well-being through a chain of interactions.

Comments

[um]

So ... those that came into contact with you, were also influence by you

[um]

So .. people were influenced by you when you were a speaker delivering Satsang, and writing books and now you do it again in writting blogs.

So ..OTHERS are always repsonsible for what goes on, the feelings and thoughts

So.. you are an INFLUENCER and the consumers are FED with your tyhoughts and feelings and THEY ahve to suffer the consequences

We are lived by YOU

[um]

In order to prepare ourselves for participation in the "Public domain" we had to learn the language and the concepts partaining to our culture and society.

That process does not allow ..ÿes but's ,,,"I"

In order to participate in the public domain we all have to agree about the denotative meaning and values if not we might become outcasts or end up in an asylum/

The public domain is the place of the SAMENESS and not of the connotative aspects of things and people. The public domain is as the words says for the public ..NOT for individuals.

Unfortunately, in learning what is needed for the public domain one can forget that there is also an private, individual, unique part to life.

So it was and is alright to listen to experts etc, listen to the outside world, so to say TO START WITH ... but having learned the language listened to the experts, time has come to live one's own life.

Nobody is born to consume what others have taught and do what others have done. ...IRRESPECTIVE of who and what they are. Einstein, just to take an example was both and expert and human being. In order to share the humanness with him there is no need to become an expert.

No body needs the expertise of another human being in order to be human.
And ..whatever Einstein said has no meaning and value for me ..it would .. if I was working in his field of expertise.

To those that again and again tell me ..this or that expert sais ..as if that would be a reason to hide their words i react these days with saying ..Yes, and ??? ..silence .. who cares??? ...do you want me to hang myself?

[sant64]

There's a somewhat famous account by a guy who was diagnosed with HIV. He wasted away to a skeleton and had a host of symptoms common to people dying of AIDS. By all appearances, he was near death. Then his blood was tested again, and turned out if was a false diagnosis. He didn't have HIV at all, and his apparent dire health situation was purely a product of his mind. What with all the many people still wearing masks, I feel the same thing is going on today en masse.

I have no doubt that culture deeply informs everything we take to be our personal judgments. Perhaps "informs" is too light a term, and "mostly controls" is closer to the mark. Given that we can't escape the effects of culture, I'm not sure I'd categorize any effects of any culture as "mass hysteria." As I see it, there are good cultures and bad cultures.

But how does one presume to say which cultures are good, and which are bad? By what yardstick can a culture be measured?

I enjoy reading Reddit for people's opinions on travel to foreign lands. From the many comments I've read about India, its noise, air pollution, general disorder, and uncleanliness, the culture of the RSSB Dera is a distinct anomaly. So by purely material standards, the RSSB culture is objectively better than the general Indian culture.

[sant64]

More strangeness from TREASURE BEYOND MEASURE

In 1947, partition caused tremendous unrest in India. Millions died in the riots. This crisis was felt by Charan Singh's father, who feared for the welfare fo the Muslims in his hometown and also feared Muslim attacks on his family.

These concerns were directed to Sawan Singh, who assured Charan's father that "Nobody will even touch a hair. Do not worry, Babaji is with you."

In another part of the book, Charan Singh (now the RSSB Master) tells of how in 1988 he found it necessary for his safety to not leave the Dera, and to have machine gun-toting sevadars surround him at any public appearance.

Questions arise: If Sawan Singh could invoke powers of divine protection for others, why wasn't Charan able to do the same during his tenure as RSSB guru?

Also, I wonder if any RSSB satsangis experienced violence during partition. None did? If that's so, that would be an even greater miracle than the safety of satsangis and their Muslim neighbors in Sikanderpur. But nothing is said about that In Treasure Beyond Measure. This leads me to assume that it's possible satsangis were killed in the partition riots, but this is something RSSB lit doesn't mention.

[sant64]

From Sawan Singh's 1937 will:

"A number of satsangis have built houses in the Dera Baba Jaimal Singh with my permission on the land belonging to me and in my possession on the condition that they and their descendants can reside in the Dera only so long as they have faith in the Master who for the time being is the Spiritual Head of the Dera and are considered by him to be suitable persons for residing in the Dera, otherwise they have no right to live in the Dera and I or my successor shall be authorised to eject them any time we liked. In the event of their ejectment, the satsangis concerned or their assignees will have no right of any sort to the land or the materials of the building. If any satsangi or his heir is desirous of transferring his house to any other satsangi of the Dera, he would do so with my permission, or after me, with the permission of my successor who may be the Spiritual Head of the Dera at the time."

Call it the Kirpal Singh clause I guess. (Kirpal Singh lost his house at the Dera after raising a ruckus when he found that Jagat was the succeeding guru.)

But is this stipulation objectively unfair?

[um]

@ Sant 64

>> I enjoy reading Reddit for people's opinions on travel to foreign lands. From the many comments I've read about India, its noise, air pollution, general disorder, and uncleanliness, the culture of the RSSB Dera is a distinct anomaly. So by purely material standards, the RSSB culture is objectively better than the general Indian culture.<<

Well one can argue whether your standards deserve to be called "objective"
But that be left aside.

It is impossible that in global regions beyond the moderate climate zone and within these zones the flat lands, any society will be able to create the same level of welfare.
The cost would be to high, it would demand to much energy and in many cases it would be sheer impossible.

The same is with the dera. The circumstance that brought this welfare to the dera are so exclusive that it is impossible that even an Punjab city, county or state would be able to reach that welfare or come even close to it.

To those that reacted as you describe I would suggest to go back to India again and have a closer look .. but this time at the people only and see how the manage to make the best of their circumstances and if they, these so called objective visitors, are by any means able to do the same. Further I would ask them to compare the faces of the common people with those of their own counties ... maybe they would come to the conclusion that the common Indian, has more power to stand on his own legs, is more contented etc etc.

Maybe they would also see that the ladies a the side roads, with a broom keeps the sand clean and how she looks after her cooking utensils with care and that these people by no means even closely look at those living in the streets of the great cities elsewhere in the world.

Every human being can make something of his or her life and being successful is a human being is not only reserved to the young, healthy, rich and well educated westerners.

It is certainly no pleasure for parents etc to have an disabled child, but some deal what they did not asked for etc in a way that stands apar with people that become champions in their field of activity on which the lime light of society shines.

Let us put it this way .. one can wonder of the common american would be able to cope with the situation that is to be found in India.

Welfare creates mental and physical ..OBESITAS ...have a look at your own people, their bodies, their faces, their interactions and compare them with those you look down upon.

[um]

@ Sant64

>>But is this stipulation objectively unfair?<<

It is definitely not unfair but a wise decision.

Our niece has started with her sister and modern living and building project, where all participants are place in the position to have one hectare ground, where they can grow their own food and have the possibility to built their own home for a reduced price.
They too have arranged in their contracts that they cannot sell their property to heirs or outside people, they can only sell it to the board for the price they bought it.
For the very simple reason that they can preserve the atmosphere for which the whole project was started.

[um]

Hahaha ...Sant 64

I should not write this but I cannot prevent myself doing it.

Years ago, when participating in rebuilding an house for the community, there were now and then frictions between people as to what had to be done and how.
Not all but many of them were skilled craftsmen and where convinced that they should be listened to being experts in the field.

One day there was another frustration going on and I remember saying to one of them, by the way a very skilled person and of pleasurable character ..."Look XXXX if YOU want to do the things HERE as you used to do them at home and at your work, then stay at home and stay at your work ...seva means to use one skills etc to do what is asked for, it is not meant to demand or tell what should be done etc.

As long as a person is able to prepare coffee because he is asked to prepare coffee, remains a sevadar that makes coffee... even if he is an processional barista and does not turn the affairs around an wants to operate as a barista that does seva .. only the the pleasure will be there. If he feels that coffee should be made how he wants it to be done at home and in its bar, he is well advised to stay at home and in his bar.

Hahahaha .. do not get angry at me ...I do remember those days with so much pleasure. I have done so many things, I otherwise would never have dear to do in life or would have had the opportunity and so many good and funny people ..only later when the professionalization found its way in the whole atmosphere got corrupted as many a household and work environment is corrupted.

I would not liked to have missed that period in life

[Jim Sutherland]

@Brian,…..an amazing contrast between you and I, both Charan Initiates. Unlike you, I arrived at the Dera my one and only time, after 27 years of positive expectation to feel as you did during your 2 weeks there, but 2 DAYS were all I could take , before escaping what I felt was a Gulag, or Penal Colony,…..at best, an American Minimum Security prison! I felt trapped, among hypnotized Zombies, all huddled in little isolated Pods of corralled prisoners guarding their little private stashes of instant coffee, tea and cookies. I couldn’t escape out of there fast enough, once I secured my confiscated Smart phone, iPad and Passport. With Security Guards wearing Army Uniforms walking around made me feel like I was back in Military Boot Camp! But I was 17 then, young and dumb, not 75, educated and retired. Big difference.
But the big contrast between us, You left the Path, and I’m still on it.

[um]

@ Jim

hahaha .. great fun

to be sure ...you describe your visit of the Dera when the late MCS was stil alive or after 1990 when dera was ruled by his succesor?

[Jim Sutherland]

@UM ,…it was in June 2015 under BBJ. I attended one Q & A, , and 2 Very short Satsang talks, by BBJ, after squeezing my legs together , trying not to pee my pants, ( prostate problem), after listening to 45 minutes of Hindi Shabs by the Sevadore Quartet. Then, BBJ snuck in the back curtain, gave a 2 minute Darshan, posing for the wide screens, while twirling his mustache, then a 5 minute Satsang, than fled his adoring Zombies. Then, another 45 minute Satsang in Hindi, by another Turbaned “Authorized” Speaker, while trying to listen through my RENTED Translator Gizmo, with ear buds, that didn’t work because the batteries were dead! That was when the REAL fun began! Trying to retrieve my Wife , who had been confiscated from me on the way in, and corralled in to the Ladies section, away from all those horny males! HaHa. She looked like she was in shock when I finally retrieved her, and yanked her towards the Golf Cart I was trying to hitch a ride back to the Hostel 6 area, almost among fist fights breaking out with people climbing on the Golf Cart while hanger ons were being pushed off. But I was lucky. My Western Rep. got us on the Golf Cart, seeing us in pain, ( He is now dead,…R.I.P. ), and people walking were staring at us “ privileged” foreigners riding , while they were walking, as if we were vermin. HaHa. Such great memories, I can’t wait to go back. My wife said I will have to wait until she dies, because she isn’t ever going back.

[Brian Hines]

Jim, I was 29 when I went to the Dera to see Charan Singh. It wasn’t all sweetness and light. My roommate snored terribly so I slept in the bathtub with the door closed most nights. But on the whole it was a magical and inspiring visit.

[um]

@

Oh poor Jim .. I laughed my heart out .. what a treat ... hahaha
Sorry that your story made me laugh Jim

You are just not alone, it has been an drama for many.

But finished laughing .... what I do not understand why so many people that have visited the Dera before 1990 are able to digest what you described.

After the death of the late MCS I visited the Dera only once and I am still surprised until to day how I managed not to react as you did as in those days, a couple of years before 2015 the situation was not jet that "bad" as you describe but an unimaginable difference how it was under the late MCS

By now I left all and everything behind but still cherish the good memories I have and to be honest I had the pleasure to meet his successor a couple of times, eye to eye and that too was a pleasure.

It seems to me that the sevadars have changed over time and made themselves more and more important than they are or should be.

Now and then, with a cup of coffee I try to figure out why this change occurred but until now I have not found an acceptable answer.

And ..apart from what my personal feelings and thoughts are, It was a pleasure reading that you consider yourself still on the path ..thumbs up

[um]

@ Brian

You too are making my day .... imaging you in the bath tube.
These personal dera stories have always been a great source of pleasure and laughing

[Jim Sutherland]

@Brian and um,…..I made a mistake. It was June 2017 I was there. But our room and bed was clean. And on the bottom floor across from the Administration office, and across from the dining hall, were free bland spaghetti and to tomato sauce, and chapatis, with filtered water was served. I’ve heard funny stories about sharing rooms with strangers. At 75, I don’t think I would have faired well, trying to sleep in a bath tub. In fact, we had Twin beds in our room. But It was rancid hot, and humid in the room, with no ventilation. There was a huge portable Swamp Cooler on rollers there, that only blew hot air, so we couldn’t use it. I wanted to open the door to get a little ventilation in, but my Wife was paranoid that some of those uniformed Soldiers would walk in after dark, and abduct us, and escort us to Pakistan, and use as as bargaining ransom to the U.S. Govt. ( had that happened, we’d most likely still be in Pakistan, as converted Muslims.) haha

[ithinknot]

June?

[DJ]

If he showed up to Dera in June it was an unauthorized visit and would have been kicked out anyhow for being there when westerners are not permitted to come.

[um]

@ DJ

That is the rule ...there are always exemptions to the rules ..

after lecturing me, I was treated very kindly and had privileges that were taken away when the "official" period started ...but it was not in June ... hahaha.

Before 1990 and until say 2000 they were not policing there own rules.
And I am sure that many have had this experience of kind tolerance.

In an Eye camp an old man asked for a kind of drug he was addicted to, I can't remember what it was. He was first lectured and then somebody was send to the nearby village to get what the man needed. That is how it should be done ..in kindness and understanding

[Jim Sutherland]

I don’t understand the SECRECY involved, around the RSSB Dera, and why no photos of any of the historical buildings, and manicured grounds are taboo , to be photographed by Satsangis. The other RS branches allow photos of just about every thing, including the parent Soamibagh group. I have a friend who is a Charan initiate traveling in India right now, staying in different Ashrams, and posting short photos and videos of those Ashrams for his friends to see, as he travels. I have traveled to, and visited the major cities of 75 different countries, and took literally THOUSANDS of photos and videos to share, of Churches, Buddhist Monasteries, from Bhutan to Lhasa, Tibet, and even the inside of the Dali Lama’s Potala Palace. Let’s face it. The RSSB Dera’s “secrets” are not like touring Area 51 in Nevada, or NORAD inside of Cheyenne Mountain! WHY all the hidden secrets at the DERA? Its really ridiculous. ( to “normal” rational, unhypnotised people.)
I really wanted to see the historical Satsangar Building up close, even hoping to go inside to see the rooms, but was warded off by a uniformed Army Guard, patrolling the chain linked wire fence , far away from the building, as if Aliens were living in it , and had taken it over.
There was a lot more I could bitch about, but since I never intend to return there, I’ve said enough. Even the Sikh Golden Temple was wide open to any visitors, off the street, including me. I took all the photos and videos I desired, even standing 6 feet away from the Guru reading the Sacred Granth inside the Temple! I toured and took pics and videos of the Chapati cooking automatic machines, as well as the huge cooking pots, and sampled fresh made Chai Tea right out of the huge Pot , as it was brewing and being stirred. All the Sevadores were cheerful, kind, and not pushy, or intimidating, if I was intruding uninvited to their space. They even gave me back my shoes, all cleaned and polished!
I also am an Initiate of all of the Rosicrucian ( AMORC) Degrees, and have been in the places of Assembly that allowed even the lowest Neophyte to take photos of the buildings.
The bottom line, to all I have said is, there are NO secrets that need kept hidden away from unmarked Souls, because the Pearls cast to swine All fall right in to the rest of the slop, and is mixed in, and lost , and is of no value to unmarked souls, so should NEVER require any secrecy to keep those Peals hidden away from the swine, nor require Army Guards to patrol the Swine pen in order to keep the swine from seeing the Pearls. HaHahahaha
Jim Sutherland

[sant64]

TREASURE BEYOND MEASURE III

In the "Perfect Disciple" chapter, Charan Singh tells of how he felt his father never loved him. Charan (or actually, the bio's author) describes Charan's father as a "perfect disciple" of Sawan Singh. We're told that a perfect satsangi has zero feelings for anything in this world, even his own children. And that this is really wonderful.

The more I read about Charan Singh's background, the more impressed I am about how very strange it was. Sawan Singh had complete and total control over the entire family. We're told that Charan's father gave his *entire* salary to Sawan. Also, Sawan repeatedly made all decisions about who would marry whom, without asking any of his children or grandchildren their opinion of the mates he chose for them. Sawan also directed everyone's education and dictated their careers. No exaggeration, the guru Sawan ran everyone in his family's life.

What are we to make of this? Perhaps such abject surrender to authority is the real Sant Mat. I can't say, but it's clear that we in the West can't even fathom the kind of self-abnegation of the spiritual practitioners of the East. Remember the wailing and gnashing of teeth among Western satsangis when Gurinder told the sangat to stop eating rennet?

[Jim Sutherland]

OK, Critics, it was NOT June. 2017, when I was there. It was Oct. 2017, and I didn’t show up with out reservations. I was fully registered. Its difficult to remember where I was yesterday, let alone where, and the exavt month I eas at 7 years ago with out searching my archieves..
Jim Sutherland

[um]

@ Jim Sutherland

Well ..i finished my coffee and in doing so I could retrace my steps in memory.
There are different stands from which one can look at what you described, as different professionals have different interests in the same object, even about as simple as a flower ..there is the grower, the seller, the buyer, the artist, the biologist etc all with their own interests.

I came to understand, that one of the greatest problems of any school, is the drive of the students to make everything and everybody fit THEIR expectations. And in doing so what started out as fresh and new in the end gets corrupted into a movement that has nothing to do with what it was at its outset.

Sant Mat in its divers branches is no exemption to that rule.

Most teachers try to keep that power under control, and in the beginning, when there are not that many students and there is no need of organisation that is not much of a problem but as the numbers increase that power becomes stronger and more diverse and soon thereafter nobody is any longer able to control that drive to make things to be as the masses want it.

Just have a look at what happened to the christian religions in the northern parts of europe. Out of fear for losing followers, they gave in and gave in, so much so that everything has been corrupted to such an extent that in a couple of years RC christianity is an historical fact and churches, only of interest of lovers of architecture.

All ready in the days of the late MCS there were forces to turn the Dera in a kind of holiday camp, an tourist attraction and the well in the center once build to accommodated the needs of the first disciples was closed as the water was sold as "miracle" water in the markets of the towns around the dera.

He would again and again put before the visitors that their stay was related to a spiritual goal and people would not waste their time, as tourists during their stay.
It was in vain so much so that now they have to police what was earlier given as advice.

After turned in to a spiritual circus, disney land, .. now it has become the headquarter of an religious multinational

And who is to blame? ... let me not answer that question in order to prevent myself from abusive language. In their "so called love for ... " they have ruined it themselves.

[um]

@ Sant 64
>>What are we to make of this?
Perhaps such abject surrender to authority is the real Sant Mat. I can't say, but it's clear that we in the West can't even fathom the kind of self-abnegation of the spiritual practitioners of the East.
Remember the wailing and gnashing of teeth among Western satsangis when Gurinder told the sangat to stop eating rennet? <<

Hahaha .. what you described about the family affairs of the Grewals is nothing special at all as far as Sikh, punjabi and Indian culture is concerned.

According OUR concepts what went on in those days might be seen as self-abnegation but NOT in theirs ... no need to go into social psychological details here. Sufficient to look at their faces and then to ask yourself if what you see is a person without any personality of his own

An what the rennet is concerned ..please american brothers and sisters, do not get angry at me .. but is YOUR own fault. You have turned the teachings into lists of do'and don't's as that is more comfortable than what the teachings are all about. YOU brought it up again and again and again ..an he, the poor teacher what could he do but say no, it is not allowed.

There is no God that is interested in what you eat, nor how you behave sexual or what you put into your mouth to have another look at the world.

YOU, american, you are descedants of the fanatic dutch CALVINISTS, you cannot be happy without rules, SIN, hell and doom

YOU hAve turne sant mat into an calvinisic religion.

HAHAHA do not woory it is not your fault .. it had to happen

[um]

@ Jim Sutherland

Alright running the risk making myself seen as a "defender" of something let me add this much:

The late MCS, if my memory does not play tricks oi me, one evening said to the audience that the parents of children that are behaving well and follow their advice are gifted with whatever gadget they want. If the study well etc, they can have their own Tv in their room, their own audio set and whatever more if they can afford it. BUT .. as soon as the child starts to neglect his duties, gets lower grades he is warned and if the warning doesnt work all the items that he uses as an distraction to keep focused on his dutie will be taken away from him again, one after the other.

Against this story, looking at the affairs of the sangat everywhere one can say, at least I can, that whatever was once such an pleasure to have, is expertly removed and hardly anything is left .. or ... in the room of the child only a table and a chair are left to make his homework otherwise there is nothing left for the child to amuse himself with.

MCS didn't like to do that work, could have if he would have wanted so as he was mentaly as strong as his father and great father .. so he left it to somebody else ... hahaha who finds pleasure in doing it.

It is my personal understanding that the late MCS was not so soft as many think nor is his successor so strickt as many think

AND .. please, please, do not take my words as anything more than my personal opinion and it is certainly not in defence of anything or anybody ..it is just how I came to understand a lot of things ..AFTER .. I left it all behind me.. It is more if not only related to how people handle, in this case, an eastern practice. It is about the consumers not about the producers,

[um]

@ Jim

RETROSPECTION ... is the right term I believ

[Jim Sutherland]

@um,….from the beginning, I was not a perfect disciple. I believed Charan every time he told people,…”We are ALL struggling souls.” So I always took that to mean he included him self, and didn’t even believe he was God. He always passed the buck to “The Father.”
So, I knew from the start I’d never be perfect, but just did as well as I could, and left the rest to “The Father.” I still do that, and would advise you, and all Initiates to do the same, no matter how far you have strayed away from the Path, and just return to your innocence of your day of Initiation. All of our stories are miraculous, as the the circumstances that first led us to the Path, then the long agonizing journey of finally consummating the Initiation.
No doubt, those whom BBJ has initiated feel the same as we do about Charan. But all of our Paths are secured by our Lineage of Masters, which very well go further back in history than we even know. So, don’t cancel your Insurance Policy until you find one that gives you better coverage for less effort. To date , I have not found one.
Jim Sutherland

[um]

@ Jim SutherlAND

Thank you for your concern and advise.

How do I explain what is inside?
Pondering whether I should use "the waking up in the cinema" as a finger to point at the moon, an word popped up in my mind ..DISCONNECTION,

Maybe that is the best word to use ...disconnection .. I am no longer connected in any capacity, negative or positive, in terms of thoughts and feelings to what made me ask for initiation and what came afterwards.

While that disconnection from the the original "pull" is becoming wider and wider, another thing is becoming larger and more important .. that is best pointed at with something he said to an Indian gentle man when he asked him whether or not to educate the children into te teachings of Sant Mat upon which he with some force in his voice reacted by saying "Definitely NOT ... give them a good example an let him grow.

Now that connection with what me initially brought to the path has gone and later all interest in experts, be it scientists or mystics, my memories of him as a human being as an example, become more meaningful and gain more value. Call if psychological interests . I do not know. how to say it otherwise.

So what I remember and what gains value and meaning is how he reacted to people, how people addressed him, what they where after. In my opinion he never said a word about Sant Mat, about the teachings, about the inner experiences. He had nothing to say, he could not say a thing and he did not .. besides answering the problems and questions that people did put before him ...People would do themselves an pleasure in researching what and how he answered them. They could find that he did never do or say certain things that others certainly would do ... he refrained from doing and saying things that others would do in his place ..these things are revealing to say the least ..they reveal an attitude as a human being , it tells at least to me something of what it means to be a FREE HUMAN being.

That EXAMPLE is a source of inspiration for me ..like and great musician sets an example to a student, not to copy but something else .

Probably this sounds as nonsense .. so be it.

[Jim Sutherland]

@um,…I bought the 3 volume set of “Spiritual Perspectives” sold by RSSB, and start my day by reading only 2 pages before my meditation. That keeps my Darshan of Charan fresh.
Your criticism of Calvinism is 180 degrees opposite of my love for Sant Mat, which is Calvinism in human form, taught by Charan Singh!
Why are some souls marked for salvation , while others are not, per Sant Mat?
Because in Calvinism, some are born as the Elect, whereas the others are born as Reprobates. The Elect KNOW who they are, as the Marked souls also know, who they are! They are hunted down and haunted from birth to return Home!
The Reprobates do not know they are depraved from birth, because of unbalanced karmas from past lives, and are NOT hunted down by Living Masters, of all times, as Jesus and Charan were sent, to escort only the Elect and Marked souls of their time on earth in physical bodies the Father sent them to lead Home.
Only you must decide if you are an unmarked totally depraved Reprobate, or one of the Marked Elect.
Jim Sutherland

[um]

@ Jim Suther land

I read what you write as words having meaning and value for YOU. I also sense the feeling behind them.

But they have no meaning and value for me anymore.

At this point I will repeat what I have done before several times, something Prof. B. said to me, sitting next to MCS having a conversation.
Brother, ....
the pull must come from within.
and after my reaction he continued
If it is not there, it is just not there
and there is nothing you can do about it.

So Jim there is nothing for me to do. In the beginning it was difficult but that time has passed. I am no longer able to think, feel, imagine etc beyond what I experience in the very moment.

So I do know how to write words like God for example and have an intellectual understand how these words and concepts are use in the public domain but they lost their meaning and value for me as a person.

You see I would not even call myself an agnostic as an agnostic, states that he doesn't know but he is interested ... let alone a theist or an atheist.

Things like after life etc too have lost their meaning.

That is how it is jim, nothing more nothing less and I do not think I have to make up my mind about anything but my daily existence . Being chosen or reprobate is something that is part of an narrative. There is nothing wrong with a narrative, and participate in tge game that is related to that narrative, a game that people play, nothing at all .. it is just not my calling.

It is like let us say the dreamworld of the aboriginals, It exists as an narrative for these human beings full of mysterious value and meaning, that is formative for how they live life as a human being .. again nothing wrong with it ... but it has no meaning for me.

If I would encounter an elder I certainly would to respectfully and interested with him about the dream world if it would become an topic to talk about but it would remain with him.

[DJ]

Brian, I recommend you limit posting to one comment per day to weed out those who are obsessed with daily multiple replies. I've seen this rule used on another blog and it achieved a more balanced result with less repetition from those who comment excessively.

[Jim Sutherland]

@um,…..my only question for you, is what are you still trying to find by looking here , if you are totally disconnected from Sant Mat? Are you still looking for reinforcement of loosing all personal interest in Sant Mat by others here, like you? You sound like a Terminal ill Cancer victim who has taken the last possible doses of Chemo and Radiation, and still have cancer, that keeps returning to the same unsuccessful treatment , believing your still going to die. Kind of like a Terminal ill Anonymous support group.
Jim Sutherland

[um]

@ DJ

hahahaha .. just ask me to go and I will go.

[um]

@ DJ
you are dishonest to the bone.

All are free to express themselves as they feel like.
You do not speak up when Kranvir and trez are writing here again and again.

Speak up your frustration and explain you SELECTIVE abomination

[sant64]

TREASURE BEYOND MEASURE IV

Actually, this is nothing from the book, but just something that occurred to me about RSSB history. It's in connection with how my take on that history has changed over time.

In the big online RSSB vs. Kirpal Line debates -- which went on for years -- the RSSB apologists would scoff at Kirpal Singh's statements about how RSSB was controlled by corrupt family interests. "How absurd!" said the apologists. "Kirpal was a liar making up conspiracy theories out of nothing. Sawan left a SIGNED WILL denoting Jagat Singh (a non-relative) as successor. This proves beyond doubt that the Sawan family wasn't behind any scheme to keep ownership and control of RSSB."

Perhaps Kirpal was throwing darts blindfolded.

Or perhaps he wasn't....for it came to pass that at least since 1951, RSSB has been owned and run by Charan and Gurinder, who are Sawan Singh's direct descendants.

It might be sheer coincidence or the Mauj of the Swamiji, but for the past 114 years, RSSB has been run by the Grewal family. Wait, subtract Jagat's 3 years, so that's only a 109-year dynasty.

My point? The RSSB apologists were adamant that there's just no way no how any behind-the-scenes power plays influence who becomes a guru at RSSB. Their proof? Sawan's signature on a will. That no longer seems like a strong argument to me.

[sant64]

111 years. Yeah I can't do math.

[Jim Sutherland]

@sant64……here was my take on that controversy, after I first read that book, when I was a member of Lane’s RRS group: I still feel the same.

########## I just finished "re-reading" Charan Singh's accounts of
how he felt, and the events that took place in 1951 when he came to
Dera and found he had been appointed to the gaddi, from his hand
writen personal diary entries. ("Treasures beyond Measure.)

I recant my previous comments that Charan might have read a will
that had already been written appointing him. I do believe, and am
convinced, that Charan wanted no part of being the PLM, and he KNEW
he was NOT a PLM, but, after agonizing about it, and being taunted
by his family members, even including his wife who promised to co-
operate, if he "did his duty", he caved in, and accepted his curse
that was put upon him, because of love for his Grandfather, Sawan
Singh. I did write my thoughts, about this, on a prior post, which
was similar to this understanding.

That does not mean that Sawan may have not have "possibly" discussed
it with Jagat Singh, but, I am totally convinced that Charan was not
in the loop, and had no prior knowledge of EVER being appointed PLM.
I believe he did his best, for 40 years, as a human being in Drag,
forced to pose as a PLM, which he absolutely KNEW, he was NOT! So,
he stayed the course, because of loyality to Sawan, and close family
members that wanted him to do the job, and as he said, as a Sevador
to the Dera. He made mistakes, being human, and as Neural says, the
worst mistake, being that he would not openly admit, that the PLM
scheme was a sham, and step down and end the scarade.

So, does Neil's reminder that Charan didn't have any Master Power
transmitted to him by the preceeding Master through the eyes, make
Charan a "less" of a guru than Kirpal, who Neil said had all of
Charan's Grandfather's Power downloaded into him through Sawan's
eyes, directly into his?

Charan said he was just a sevador, and wasn't a PLM, but, was
willing to "do his duty" to his master", and sat on the gaddi.

Kirpal "said", and wrote, that he was God in Human Form, and had
received Direct Transmission of the Master Power from Sawan, and
told to set up a new gaddi, away from the Dera. But, the problem is,
we have only Kirpal's story, on those instructions, whereas, the
written wills by Sawan Singh clearly assigned Kirpal Singh to stay
at the Dera and be the Host for the foreign visiters to the Dera, or
Chief Conceriege, i.e. a Sevador for the Dera.

So, which guru was right or wrong? The one who KNEW he was a
sevador, but accepted his fate of being forced to the
gaddi,..............or, the one who KNEW he was God in Human Form,
but refused to do the duty he was assigned to do at the Dera, i.e. a
Sevador?

I believe I will leave this to the sagacity of the readers.

But, again, I believe, deep within my heart, that regardless of
Charan's faults, he never knew he would EVER be appointed to the
gaddi, and had never planned for it, but, made the best he could,
out of a real devestating situation.
~~ isydopen/Jim Sutherland — 14th January 2004

[um]

@ Jim Sutherland

Those that looked him in the eyes, talked to him, spend some time with him, should ask themselves this question:

Does this man before me believe in the teachings as |I do?
Did he believe the narrative of Sant \Mat?
Did he look upon his great father as a guru?
Did he look upon Sardar B. as a guru?

If "YES" it doesn't mater whether what his spiritual status was.

IF "NOT" why did you stay .. as one can sense a LIAR ...it can bee seen from the body language.

[um]

@ Jim Sutherland

AND ... he being a HUMAN, ask yourself this question:

Could you or anybody else, acting in his place, act as he did.

Let me give an example.
Day in day out he was bombarded with questions, and emotions of his visitors.
Prof. B, sitting next to him, an epitome of good will character etc however he did his utmost best not to get emotionally involved in what was going, could not avoid falling victim to his feelings.Now ask your self have you ever seen are heard MCS lbeing swept away of his emotions?

Can you imagine yourself or any other human being stranding in his shoes without losing his temper.

This was just an example of many other things one could look at. YES, he was human, yes he acted as a human, but ask if another being could have acted in such an way.

If what you saw was exeptional .. then ask you ..What could have caused it?

[Kranvir]

How many different sects of RSSB are there now, all inspired by a so called entity inside , give it what ever name - sawan etc. These entities / demons/ fallen angels/ aliens should never be trusted, and it's not what you should be seeking on the inside. It's one massive confusion and mind trap set by KAAL and his agents to keep innocent souls going around in circles. And then you have massive ego of gurinder singh Dhillon who has set himself up on becoming the super guru of a mega world wide cult- look at how he prances around with other wannabe self proclaimed gurus. Gurinder inflates his ego while we are told to put up, shut up, stay in line and be humble.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Kramvir,…..I have enjoyed your push back posts here for some time. You criticize Sant Mat , as if you know these dangerous 5 name demons you accuse Sant Mat Initiates possess. So,…would it be too much to ask , how you know KAAL’s secretive trap to retain Initiated Marked Elect Souls to the Wheel of 84, Charausi? You sound like a Holiness Preacher , standing on a soap box with a portable megaphone, on a street corner shouting at the crowds walking by ignoring you, while your shouting ,…. REPENT from RSSB and all Sant Mat Branches, or you’ll burn in hell. Are a Christian , Jew, or Muslim? Come on, don’t be shy. Come out of your closet , and fess up to your Plan of Salvation. Maybe you’ll convince us KALL Slaves you imagine are caught in the Wheel of 84. Ask Trez to help you. You 2 will be a convincing Tag Team for us poor lost souls. Maybe you can help um with your better brand of Coffee?
Jim Sutherland

[Trust but verify]

@Um; ."....If "YES" it doesn't mater whether what his spiritual status was"

Parapharsing Sawan Singh: "One wouldn't ho to an elementary school teacher if one is seeking a PhD."

Spiritual status of a guru is critical in Sant Mat, No?

[um]

@ Trust etc

Given from the teachings, the narrative, that is correct.

That said it is a matter of trust, faith and believe ...and ..the values and meaning each individual attributes to what he excepts as hearsay to be true.

As I have pointed out several times, those that are not at the same level of a guru have nothing more than their own attribution of meaning and value to make a discussion as to who to follow or not. Their thoughts and feelings, however important to THEM, are otherwise meaningless in terms of making statements about the status of a guru .. what they see as a human being, nothing more nothing less ..what they can know is what they can experience.

So what I wrote was that ALL could experience his humanity and attribute meaning and value to it but THAT however meaningful, does not give a clue about his spiritual status if any.

These discussions about who and what a guru is are useless as a child in kindergarten has not the capacity to differentiate between an elementary school teacher and an Phd. Even if somebody that is near and dear to the child would tell him THAT person is a school teacher and THAT person is an professor, it would be meaningless to the child ...and .. if he later on the playground starts telling others that "HE KNOWS" nobody will take him serious.

[Jim Sutherland]

8,000 BC, earth population was about 5,000.
Today, its over 8 BILLION.

“At the dawn of agriculture, about 8000 B.C., the population of the world was approximately 5 million. Over the 8,000-year period up to 1 A.D. it grew to 200 million (some estimate 300 million or even 600, suggesting how imprecise population estimates of early historical periods can be), with a growth rate of under 0.05% per year.”

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/#google_vignette

During my World travels, I have personally witnessed the diverse nature and differences of our Human Species ,spread out in different locations of Planet earth.

Looking at the Virtual Human population Chart linked, does any one wonder how human population keeps growing on earth, in spite of Birth Control Medications, Abortion, Celibacy, continuous wars, and natural disasters that kill and annihilate humans?

Sant Mat Philosophy teaches that only about 10% of souls incarnated from Sach Khand. So, my belief is, that MARKED Elect Humans ONLY, have the 5th Element in them, i.e. Akasha, which is the RADHASOAMI/CHRIST/HOLY/SACH khand Spirit, whereas the other 4, earth, air, fire, water, are all the lower Nature earth spirits, that are in the lower species of The Wheel of 84,

The Bible Verse that states,…”Many are called,…few are chosen.” So, how many Sant Mat initiated that have been called, but are still not chosen, sit as hypnotized as Zombies in the crowds staring in to the huge flat screens in Sat Sand, instead of looking within their own Foreheads inside, where their Master sits waiting , still waiting to be chosen, by the evidence of KNOWING they are chosen?

The large increased numbers of human earth population are incarnated by the Nature spirits of the lower species, with out the Spirit that originated from Sach Khand. Its those list souls that Living Masters are sent to recover, and take back to Sach Khand.

[Kranvir]

Judith
10% of souls come from sach khand- how do you know this ? It's a made up story, just like all other religions and cults (re lie gions) to lure you in and make you feel special. The truth is our soul energy is God energy.

Radha swami means radha krishna , rssb is another flavour of Hinduism. Their gods from pictures of Shiva and vishnu , they are blue aliens/ demons/ and nothing godly. Meditation, Shiva is the lord of meditation, and all meditation ( 3rd eye) lead to him.

Radha swami has nothing to do with christ energy. Christ however is simply word made flesh , and this word is the truth as God is truth. Radhaswami , and its god in human form gurinder singh Dhillon is a complete lie , a wolf on sheeps clothing, and a total blasphemy of god. Just look at the actions of this God incarnates, Gsd, and you can see he represents a negative energy. He has been incarnated to take souls back to his master- who is the deciever; kaal and in return he gets to be worshipped by blind millions and have wealth beyond our comprehension.

As for Marked souls / marked sheep, sheep get slaughtered don t they ? marked souls means those that are chosen to go to kaals hell, his paradise, to be consumed by him. This is why you are in the belly of the beast.

There is christ, and truth, and this knowing is in us as soon as you start peeling back the lies you are trapped in. You do not need to do any meditation, any special spiritual practice, keep it simple.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Kranvir,….the 10% was mentioned in Spiritual Gems by Sawan, as I seem to recall. But your correct. I wasn’t there, so take it as hear say, but it corraborated my studies. You might be interested in my journey, since you appear to be an all knowing expert 0n who pooped in the RSSB Langar. I posted this on my Facebook site today.

I posted the following last Aug. 2023. Its worth a repost, as its still fairly up to date, but I could add a lot more of my present thoughts here, but most of the friends I still have left here, that have not died, know me by haven met me on some of tne various Chat Forums I have posted on, in the past, until I was being Shadow banned, i.e. censured, because I quit singing with the Choirs, so quit posting there. During those years I have rubbed elbows with, and grappled with various people on the Internet, I have not completely driven away those friends I still have left here on Face book. I appreciate you all. Forgiveness is the Key, in the Big picture, because we only know what we THINK we know, which in the end, especially where we become sick, in pain, and unable to heal our selves, we KNOW we are ALL powerless over even our own destiny, let alone other’s! We need to extinguise the fires in our own burning homes, before looking for smoke in other people’s homes.

That the above said, here was where I was in Aug. 2023, and am not far away now. I am greatful for my friends who are spread out over the U.S., India, Bhutan, Sweden, U.K., Austrailia, Canada, Mexico, So. America, France, Israel, and others.

Jim's Maze of Seeking God:

As a baby Christian, I was like a lamb being thrown to the wolves, when I first entered the Church arena, after becoming Born Again in April 1977, which changed me in to a “New Creation, crucified with Christ.” I was “Baptised in The Holy Spirit” with evidence of speaking in tongues as per Acts. Chapter 4. In my mind’s eye I considered God the Father in the center of the Universe, with Jesus, the Christ, as the Intercessor between the Father and I. But, as I started to interact with other Christians, I started to add circles in my diagram branching out from the center, where the Father is located. In each of my circles, as I studied the different denominational dogmas, I circled Atonement; Righteousness; Eucharist, or Communion; Justification; Creator; Love; Grace; Faith; Mercy; Eternity; Immortality; Sin; Demons; Angels; Miracles; Church; Temple; Election; Predestination; Fate; Karma, Action or inaction; Reincarnation, Transmigration, Metempsychosis; Incarnation; and Resurrection, and last, but certainly not least, FORGIVENESS.

A couple years study of The Assemblies of God’s Berean Bible School earned me a Graduation Diploma, and a License to Preach by The A/G Denomination, and prayed for many Seekers to reveive the Baptism of The Holy Spirit as I had been gifted. ( that initial Gift is what originally opened me up to “The Kingdom Within” that I became a member of. )

I ended up pastoring a small Assemblies of God Church in Laguna Beach, Ca. , that became much too controlled by the Parent A/G Org. and not allowing me to preach from my heart what I felt, but only their Dogma, so I resigned.

I then enrolled in a large Non-Denominational Seminary, was Oradined, while earning my B.Min., M.Min., and final Th.D. By that time, I was choked up on Fundamentalist Christian Dogma, and resigned from all Organisations and Credentials. It was a hard decision to part Company after all. Those years of hard work, study, and monitary expenditures, but I am a Free Spirit that can not be harnessed and bridled by ANY Fundamentalist group of Over Seers!

But, then, I started to venture off the beaten Fundamentalist track, and my search took me in many other directions included in the Maze of seeking God in new mysterious areas never before ventured.

I studied Manly Palmer Hall’s writings, and attended many of his lectures, in person, when he was alive. He was the founder of Philosophical Research Society. I studied the writings of Douglas Baker, Barret, The Magus; Maurice Burke; Aurthur Edward Waite, Blavatsky’s Secret Doctrine and Isis Unveiled; Alice Baily, Many Theosophy writings; Lost Continents of Atlantis and Lemuria; I read the entire Tome of the book called Urantia; as well as Eliphas Levi, Lewis Spence; the Matrix books of Val Valarien, Aliester Crowly, Edgar Cayce, which could all fall under the banner of Occultism, plus a Bibliography that could fill pages. All of no interest to non Seekers of the After Life.

Then, I studied the UFO Sects, such as Shirley McLean; Schonfield; Erick Von Daniken; The Hollow Earth Theory; Zechariah Sitchen; Dr. Horn; and most of the main stream UFO Sects along with keeping up to dste with Dr. Richard Greer and Kerry Cassedy of Project Chamelot.

Then, I also investigated Shamanism, starting with Terrence McKenna, progressing out to Spiritualism, Spiritism reading all of Allan Kardec’s book, Channeling, and even read Anton LeVey’s Satanic Bible!

I checked out most of the Christian Cults, as well. Then of course, I subscribed to the Skeptical Enquirer, and gleaned the wit of Paul Kurtz and The Amazing Randy, while I was honing up on Col. Ingersol’s volumes of Atheist books. I fought my way through the maze of Roman Catholicism, wondering if I had made the correct move, when I ventured away from my Catholic roots, and ventured into Protestantism.

Then, I had to be tossed back and forth as a ping pong ball between the Charismatic Pentecostals and Traditional mainline Fundamentalist Protestants. Then I had to decide between Historicity vs. myth vs. Tradition of the Bible. And, now allegory enters into the mix!

Once I found that Christianity gleaned the writings of Eastern religious writings, I was drawn into the maze of Eastern religions, simultaneously, while I was working through the ten year program of the Twelve Rosicrucian (AMORC) Degrees. Then, I took the Three Martinist Degrees as icing on the cake of the Esoteric Christian Maze.

I had to wade through, or sort out Eastern religions, other then the main stream Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, or Islam, I had to read Ram Dass, Charles Tart; study the drug Altered states of consciousness, read Benjamin Crème’s works; Sri Aurobindo; Nitananda; Yogananda; Dr. Paul Brunton; Muktananda; Satia Sai Baba; The Six Systems of Indian Philosophy; Rama Khristna Vedanta; Khrishna Consciousness; Meher Baba and the Sufi Mystic literature; Tibetan Buddhism and the Dali Lama ( Once saw him in person); Taoism; Confucianism; Shintoism; Essenes; Jainism; Transcendental Meditation; Egyptology; Judaism and the Kabbala; all leading me to the Radhasoami Sect!

Then, after being initiated by Thakar Singh, then Charan Singh, I found myself into the Maze of historical bickering among the various Radhasoami Sects, each saying; My Master is the only Perfect Master, and all others are pseudo masters!”

Along the way, while in the Maze, I had owned and read more Gnostic works than many could even imagine, and I went DEEPLY into both the Mormon religion, as well as Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I owned the entire Nicene Church Father’s Series, all 50 plus volumes that ---- quotes from to support his Bible quotes. I have studied the Mind Science religions, such as Religious Science, Unity, and owned most of Ellen G. White’s works, including the 6 volume set of when she published editorials in the newspaper while she was alive. ( I donated most of my books to the local Library early 2023. I am no longer interested in other people’s experiences that I can’t access inside my own Kingdom Within.)

Then, an exhaustive research of all Robert Monroes and TMI’S generous contributies after reading Monroe’s 3 books will never be forgotten.

And, my dear friends and fellow Travelers, the above is only what comes to my immediate mind, of what I remember. I have bought, read, and sold and donated more books, in the past 40 years than the average Christian Church combined! ( Because most of them have not found the liberty to venture outside of their local Dogma.) Thank The Lord alone that my "Karma has run over my Dogma!!
THERE WAS MORE, BUT THIS WAS THE HIGH LIGHT.

Jim Sutherland, A work still in progress, as of 8/7/23

[um]

@ Kranvir

In bygone years I would have discussions with orthodox Christians of all sorts of denomination. After a while I got enough of it as I had seen these discussions from all possible side. Then for a while I ask them to put them selves in the time of christ and |I would ask them what they would do.

For example:

In those days there were devout and ortodox believers as you are They were. by means of speaking, the RC's and Protestants of those days. No please do imagine yourself being in your church next Sunday and an young man enters your church starts an argument with the Pastor .. what do you think will happen? Do you think they will welcome him as the long expected messiah ..mind you .. you are also waiting for the return of the messiah as they were doing in those days. Haahaha ..looking at their faces most of the time I could see shock. Then I would transfer them to the square before the palace of Pontius Pilate and would ask them what do you think YOU would do there .. then they get it ... and the blood gets to disappear from their faces .. they become white as a bed sheet.

These days I will no longer interact in this way, having come to understand that all have to walk their own talk. I will listen to them and if I feel their believe makes them happy I will find some kind words to say to them in support of their own believe as the days have gone in which it was important what others believed.

Standing freely on my own legs is much more comfortable I did find out than leaning on a stick nor another persons believe.

And you dear Kranvir .. if Christ in person would ring your door do you think you would recognize him?

[um]

@ Jim Sutherland

An how does the story ends?
Have you found your way out of your maze?

Writing I am reminded of reading something of one of the teachers of Sant Mat describing if I remember well his wanderings in Maha Sunna. He wrote that he went so far and so long and yet there was no beginning of an end to be found upon which he decide to stop his wandering.

If one loosens what he said from the issue at hand one can see that there is no end to what there can be studied. Not in one lifetime nor in many lifetimes. AND ..what one can studie is just an description. To really understand one has to practice, walk the talk. How many life times do you think it will take to know the truth ... hahaha

So that would make ir reasionable to understand that THERE outside no answer is to be found ..seeking is creating the maze

[Jim Sutherland]

@um,…sad to confess, there is no end to the maze. There is only an end to the struggle of being caught in the maze. Once we quit struggling , and accept our condition, the pain is reduced. But the reward can never be found out side, in any location or Dera. The reward is knowing that as every green leaf from every tree ( which the leaf’s Higher Selves, ) falls to the ground and dies each Autumn season, new leaves continue new lives on the Tree in the Spring, as new lives will continue on the Higher Self that treads the Silver Cord holding old Jim in the Maze and will set Jim free. There are no more answers in any more books that can be found and read.

[um]

@ Jim Sutherland

Given spiritual lore, the amount of searching, the amount of energy you have spend in searching entitles you to and reward in the sense of an ultimate retaliation that calms the heart of the seeker

That said, would you please elaborate a little more on who is who in the example you use, leaves, branches, tree and their relation to the seasons and what about a silver cord.

Those that are kept in high regard in books etc are those that were no longer seekers.

[Jim Sutherland]

@um,……… Ecclesiastes 12:6-14
King James Version
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.

10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.

11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”

The Silver Cord is what I have coined as “The Condom of the soul”. It is actually the Etherial spiritual/material membrane that is wrapped all around the physical body, that acts like an electrical Step Down Transformer that prevents the physical body from being electrocuted by the Holographic Projection from the Higher Self.
As for trying to compare the Tree with its branches with leaves, to our physical bodies with arms, legs and trunks, is comparing each falling leaf that falls from its tree and dies, is like each physical incarnation that separates from our Higher Self, when our Silver Cord snaps, like an elastic , back to our Higher Self, and old Jim’s shell of meat, blood and bones, dies and returns to the dust of the earth, as the leaves also do.
The difference between old Jim and the tree leaf is, the Tree’s roots are nourished and given life by the earth, whereas old Jim’s roots are nourished and given life from my Higher Self , which is rooted to Spiritual realms , not to the earth as trees are.

So, am I better off haven traveled through the Maze, or would I be as I am now, with out knowing any thing I imagine I now have gleaned from living the life I have lived? Would Jim’s Season been able to survive as long as it has, by traveling the Maze, or would the Season been more like living in the Gaza than in privileged America had I not endired traveling through the Maze?
Jim Sutherland

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@ Jim Sutherland

Thank you for the explanation.

The words of Prediker were new to me .... hahaha .....I was raised RC .... and I had to read them in Dutch to ünderstand" them

[Jim Sutherland]

@um,…I was raised RC also. I was sprinkled as a baby, ( dedicated to God by my parents), had Fist Communion ritual then Confirmation, and was an Altar Boy for 5 years, and was considering becoming a Priest. But once my programed DNA kicked in, and I started liking girls, my Fate was cast at 19. I’m still married to my one and only Bride.

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@ Jim Sutherland

It is a pleasure reading what you write.

I referred at RC because they hardly ever read the bible as protestants do.
Religion had little meaning outside the meaning it had in daily life and it was absorbed like lessons in history ... things we were supposed to know about the past but what had little meaning to daily life.

Being married to just one bride must have been a school where you learned a lot.

[Jim Sutherland]

@um,….marrying at 19, and remaining with my Bride going on 63 years now, is my greatest and only success in life. Looking at our present promiscuous society of free sex , with out any life commitment to marrying a Life Partner and keeping the Marriage Vows of remaining together “until death do we part” is the best advice that religions offer. Marriage is a Life commitment, not a free throw away disposable sample. Actually, as it must sound boring to have stayed with the same Bride , the older we get, the more we cherish each other as our mutual memories together increase , and we survive the ups and downs of the Roller Coaster challenges of life.
My best childhood friend is the only one who married young, as we did , and remained together until his Wife died a few months ago. He is devastated of course, as all are, who loose their Spouses of many years. He is unable to live alone with out her, and is in the process of moving in to an Assisted Care facility.
I have other friends who have been married and divorced multiple times. One, a Sant Mat Initiate had been married FOUR (4 ) times, before being initiated by Ishwar Puri in 2015. He died a year ago, still attached to 4 wives! And all their baggage, in-laws, out laws, and problems.

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@ Jim Sutrherland

The motives to do anything, marriage too, is enough to go through the first years. Most of the time it is not enough to finish the "job".
In the beginning it is all, to put it generally and not meaning rough, to the greater glory of one selves. If there is nothing more to be had, boredom, frustration and more of its kind sets in and the desire arises to get rid of it to start afresh all over with another person.
THAT moment is the real start of the marriage .. discovering the welfare of the partner and looking after that welfare maybe for the first time in marriage ... hahaha.
Unfortunately many bypass this precious moment of change and get an divorce.

Nobody to blame