How Radha Soami Satsang Beas is similar to Christian dogmatism

I was almost going to skip the book review section in the March 11, 2024 issue of The New Yorker. I could see that it discussed books about Genesis, and I find the Bible about as interesting as hockey. Namely, not at all.

But after deciding to see what the review had to say about Marilynne Robinson's writings on Genesis and other parts of the Bible, which are prolific, I began to see parallels between Christian dogmatism and the India-based group headed up by a guru that I was a member of for 35 years -- Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB).

That made things more interesting for me. So here's some excerpts from "Had to Happen" (title in the print edition) by James Woods, along with how I see the RSSB connection.

Marked souls: Woods says...

Calvin (1509-64) was a French Protestant Reformer, who became a kind of theocratic boss of Geneva. Robinson has written powerfully in defense of Calvin and of the lively Puritanism that his movement birthed, not least in America.

She tends to pass over, as she does in that description of Lincoln’s theology, Calvin’s signature terror—that the divine intention of which Robinson speaks was, for Calvin, an ordained system of doom and election. Calvin believed that God had chosen for each of us, before our births, our ultimate fates.

A fortunate few (starting, of course, with Calvin’s own lucky congregation) will go upstairs, to reside with the Lord; a much larger number, the plebeian damned, will go downstairs, condemned to eternal Hell. And there is nothing any of us can do about it.

This is almost exactly what RSSB teaches. The guru is believed to come for "marked souls." These are people who supposedly did not want to enter the physical realm of creation when God created our universe and it needed to be populated with souls. 

So they are fated to return to heaven, which RSSB calls Sach Khand. Non-marked souls are out of luck. There's a video of the guru who initiated me, Charan Singh, nodding his head to either the left or right as a long line of would-be initiates passes in front of him. The guru is believed to be able to discern the marked souls, who get approved for initiation.

Too bad for the non-marked souls. They shouldn't have happily descended into this realm of reality, goes the RSSB dogma.

Sinful beings. Woods says...

Like many Christians, Robinson sees Genesis, and, by extension, the Bible, as a tale of protected errancy. We sinfully swerved away from God’s “first intention,” and the writers of Genesis are extremely interested in all our subsequent avarice, aggression, rebelliousness, and sexual deviancy.

In order to be free and autonomous beings, we had to be allowed by God to be capable of such errancy. But we are ultimately protected by “the faith that He has a greater, embracing intention that cannot fail.”

Again, very similar to the RSSB teachings, which inveigh against the Five Deadly Foes (if I recall the name correctly): lust, anger, greed, attachment, egotism. These weaknesses, along with our other missteps, are believed to keep us trapped in the physical realm through the inexorable law of karma.

Karma supposedly begins with a freely willed action. That action, or cause, produces various effects, each of which create more karma. And so it goes, karma piling up, until the pristine nature of the soul is buried under a big stinking pile of karmic causes and effects. 

Just as Jesus was sent by God to be a sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of humankind, RSSB teaches that the guru has the power to wash away our karmic burden -- in part by taking it upon his own being, in part by converting a karmic sword thrust into a pinprick, as the RSSB gurus are fond of saying.

Human fictions not God's truth. Woods says...

It is, in truth, very hard to remember, if one has been brought up in a religious tradition of any kind, that the God of the Hebrew Bible is not God himself but a collection of human approximations and reckonings and inspired fictions.

I have spent much of my life hating the God who replies to Job, the God who bullies and blusters out of the whirlwind, when calm rationality should remind me that this God speaks words written by a human or group of humans.

From a literary point of view, it makes no more sense to hate this God than to hate King Lear. In both cases, human beings, writing with an ardor and an inspiration that indeed seem sacred, went to the edge of the knowable.

And, in both cases, these writers use words and characters to bring back the great treasures of their literary pilgrimages. It is an extraordinary thing that a human being saw fit to describe the creation of the world from the point of view of God himself. I share Robinson’s reverence for the endeavor. But the tale is itself a creation.

In Christianity, as in RSSB, there are dogmatists who believe that the religion's writings come straight from God, and there are pragmatists who believe that the religion's holy books were written by fallible humans.

Having written a book published by RSSB myself (Life is Fair), I'm firmly in the pragmatist camp. After all, I know that I didn't take God's dictation. I researched and wrote the book on my own, which then benefitted from the suggestions of other people who read and commented on my drafts. 

Yet many, if not most, RSSB initiates believe that the books written by the organization's gurus are divinely inspired, since the RSSB guru is considered to be God in Human Form. I deeply doubt this is true.

However, just as Christian dogmatists view every word in the Bible as reflecting a message from God, RSSB dogmatists do the same thing, obsessing over language in books written by the gurus to be certain that they're correctly following the teachings and thus on their way back to God. 

Me, I no longer believe in any religion. And that's a huge relief. It enables me to simply live my life without worrying about whether I'm endangering my salvation by doing something wrong.

Comments

[Parisa]

You must have misunderstood the premis of Sant Mat entirely. I guess it was far too esoteric for you. There are many layers for those who are ready to "see". Clearly not you yet. Ignorance In intellect. Intellect without love. The Heart Sutra in Mahayana Buddhism is as esoteric as Sant Mat. Teaches the same. Just as Mike Nesmith sang, " Hidden behind all the logic there is withput truth." Mind is a strange thing, now isn't it?

[Parisa]

That should read "without truth".

[sant64]

One problem with discussing RS doctrine is that there doesn't seem to be one. Other religions have their canons or authoritative texts. Jews and Christians have the Bible, Muslims the Quran, Buddhists the 3 baskets. But what exactly is the RS canon? Is there one?

I was skeptical when I read that bit about non-marked souls balking at taking birth in pind. But I found it quoted elsewhere on the internet, so it must be published in some RSSB book or other. But no source is given so I don't know which book it might be. Philosophy of the Masters by Sawan Singh? Maybe it is found there, along with the part about Kal standing on one leg. But as far as I can tell, nothing about "marked souls" is mentioned in Sar Bachan, supposedly the root text of RS teachings.

Moreover, I can't find the concept of "marked souls" found in any religion outside of RSSB. If it's buried somewhere in Sikhims or Sufism or Hinduism even Theosophy (which RS borrowed from), someone let me know.

My guess is that either Jaimal or, more likely, Sawan Singh (neither of whom we have any record of being appointed Guru by their own Guru) came up with the marked soul concept. And my related guess is that this concept was cooked up as a way of turning away undesirables from membership in the religion. And by "undesirables," I don't mean people who had bad karma on the Master could see, but rather, people who, at the time, were deemed to be not socially fit for membership.

I've never witnessed the Dera marked soul inquisition, but I strongly suspect there's got to be more to it than meets the eye. Has anyone heard of a non-Indian seeker being recommended for initiation by their RSSB sponsor, but their application was denied because Master wrote back that knew the soul in question wasn't "marked?" I haven't. That alone strongly suggests that Indians who are denied initiation at the Dera are simply rejected for non-mystical reasons that we don't know about. And I assume these rejects are told they may apply again, rather than given the bums rush with a "depart from me ye cursed" thrown in for good measure. I assume that because I've never heard anyone tell of Indians mortally distraught by their karma reading, pegging them doomed forever.

Likewise, Calvinism's severe doctrine of predestination doesn't exactly function to label people saved or lost. It's more a recognition of the problem often discussed here: God or no God, we have no free will.

hat is, if there's a God who created us, he surely knows whether we're to be saved or not, and so our fate is set. And if there's no God, we're likewise powerless to effect any destiny other than what the universe decrees for us. Either way, we're marked souls.

[um]

@ Sant64

https://www.google.com/search?q=kabir%2C+anurag+sagar%2C+marked+souls&rlz=1C1CHBD_nlNL921NL921&oq=kabir%2C+anurag+sagar%2C+marked+souls&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigAdIBCjM0MzYxajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

What about the page numbers in Treasure beyond measure???

[Gurudabanda]

RSSB uses whatever it can get from anywhere and give it name Santmat

It is a really good business and have good money and power

If you go deep in what all saints really said you will find that this organisation is doing just opposite. GSD is a big example of it...how many lies he says.. confusing talks and shady business behind his image and fake companies

On the top his political connections saving him from law
.One time they used to beat people if any one tried to take his photo..now he is showing off in front of camera with political personalities or even producing YouTube videos..more money from YouTube

I bet he will the last so called fake Guru and this organisation will die soon...he has gathered lots of money for his next 7 generations. He might sell his positions to get more money

[um]

@ Gurubanda

Did San Mat not start with Kabir?
Did Guru Nanak, In the adi Granth not payed his respect to previous Sant Mat teachers?
Dit not the whole San Mat traditiojn in all its forms has its roots in Hinduism?

Sant Mat is like a tree with many branches and roots going very deep into ancient times.

They all tell the same story

[Appreciative Reader]

Without a doubt, Christian belief systems are equally as half-witted as RSSB. At least when looked at in this day and age, and against the backdrop of present-day knowledge. Out and out gobbledygook, is what it all amounts to. …That said, if one is to compare the one with the other, then these are my thoughts, for what that is worth:

Christianity kind of stands apart from its other two Abrahamic cousins in terms of how fundamentally peaceable it is. Judaic beliefs, as evidenced in the OT, are barbaric, bloodthirsty, and completely utterly horrible, at least by present-day civilized standards. And Islam, no matter they claim its very name means “religion of peace”, but it was a fundamentally warlike cult right from the get-go, as lived and taught by its opportunist and far from peaceable founder-Prophet, and indeed as practiced through much of its subsequent career around the world. In sharp contrast, the teachings of Christianity are fundamentally gentle and peaceable, and indeed for centuries it had been a largely peaceful movement. Often persecuted, but never persecuting. It was only after Constantine joined the cult, and turned its fortunes, that the persecution began. After that, Christianity lost all claim to being described as peaceable, and ended up becoming a foul bloodthirsty thing, with no less blood on its hands than its psychotic murderous younger cousin, Islam.

RSSB, although as you say its beliefs have certain points of similarity with Christianity, and although it is entirely as unevidenced and therefore fictional, is nevertheless completely entirely peaceable. Possibly because, like early Christianity, it hasn’t had the opportunity not to be; and, as Osho Robbins’ experience shows, the authoritarianism within RSSB can be easily turned to violent channels; but still, to be fair, outright violence, actual blood spilled, hasn’t happened so far. Its hands remain clean so far, while the hands of Christianity and Islam are wet with blood spilled by its adherents and in its name.

So yeah, points of similarity, sure; but also, points of divergence. In specific beliefs, as well as in terms of whether or not it is peaceable.

----------

As for the “marked souls” nonsense: Utterly hilarious! Haha, you can easily see how those afflicted with a paucity of gray matter and a laughably inflated ego might fall for kind of thing. I mean the blatant flattery to oneself inherent in the idea: no matter how much of an utterly worthless wretch one may be, but one can still feel good about oneself, because, oh, one’s a “marked soul”, unlike all of those plebs out there. Arguably the concept is a refinement of the old “Chosen People” idea of Judaism: but in general, and regardless of whether or not that admittedly speculative historicity bears out: Lovely con job! Credit where it’s due, because the psychological aspect underlying the con is …simply brilliant!

[Jim Sutherland]

In Christianity, Marked Souls are referred to as THE ELECT.
Obviously, those unbelievers rejecting both Bible Scriptures and Sant Mat ignore the Teachings. But for any one interested in Bible Teachings about the Elect, the following is taken from part of my Theses I wrote to obtain my Master of Ministry Degree in 1983.

ELECTION”

The word “elect” means “to choose.” There are actually three types of election in the Bible. The first is “National Election:, whereby the nation of Israel consisting of 13 tribes were chosen by God to work through. However, not all of them were called to Eternal salvation.

The second type was “vocational Election”, which means God chose some “special” people to work special works through. Some of those people were prophets, apostles, and others. All of those were not necessarily chosen to Eternal salvation, either.

The third type of election spoken of is “Personal Election’, which consists of all those called to Eternal salvation by God which includes a select group from all ages.

This is a group this thesis will put the most emphasis on, since it concerns us, in the present age, also.

The ultimate reason a Christian is filled with thanksgiving is he KNOWS that he was chosen from eternity! The Apostle Paul was one of the greatest teachers of election. He touches on election in most of his writings. Summarizing the basic Scriptures, he shows that election is from eternity. In Ephesians 1:4,5, we are told, "for He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestinated us to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and His will.”

The result of election becomes evident in life. Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 1:4,5, “Brothers loved by God, we KNOW that He has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction.”

This doesn’t mean that anyone has the right to judge whether another person is saved or lost though, because GOD sees the heart; WE do not!

Paul’s teaching was “inspired by God” as ALL Scripture is, (holy writings, in the original Greek) , (2 Timothy 3:16), but WE are not infallibly inspired. As long as a person breaths even a last breath, there is always a chance of even a death bed conversion. Paul states in several scriptures that election is Sovereign and unconditional, meaning it is not conditioned on foreseen works or foreseen faith.

“God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised, and the things that are not, to nullify the things that are, so no man can boast before Him.” (1 Corinthians 1:27,28,29). “For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive and if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?” ( I Cor. 4:7). “For it is by GRACE you have been saved, through faith, and this, not from yourselves; IT ( the faith, even), is a gift from God.” (Ephesians 2:8).

Paul then teaches that election is just. Those who reject divine election always ask the age old question even discussing election and reprobation as was asked in Paul’s day. He quite clearly spells it out in Romans 9:10-24, when he explains even before they were born, while rejecting the other. While the Jewish custom of the day was to give the birthright to the elder, in this case, God chose the younger!

Let’s examine this very important teaching on election and reprobation. Rebecca’s children had one and the same father, our ancestor Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born, or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God’s purpose in election might stand; not by works , but by Him Who calls, she was told, “the older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau, I hated.” For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” “It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but, on God’s mercy.” (Romans 9:10-16).

Then, as all have said, even I, when I first was investigating the doctrine. “One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists His will? “ “But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him Who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What is God, choosing to show His wrath, and make His Power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath, PREPARED for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His Glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance, for Glory, even us, whom He also called, not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles.” (Romans 9:19-25). That pretty well tells the story, and what’s exactly what happened when the twins, Jacob and Esau grew up. Esau sold (and lost) his birthright to his younger brother, Jacob.

Paul taught that election was not only limited to the Gentiles either, but that in every age a remnant of the Jews is also included. “So, to, at the present time, there is a remnant chosen by grace.” (Romans 11:5). Election is immutable and effectual; the elect actually reach Heaven, at last. They obtain salvation. What then?

What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but, the Elect did.” (Romans 11:17). In the next verse, he contrasts the final destiny of those God did not elect to salvation. “The others became hardened, as it is written: God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so they could not see, and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day.” (Romans 11:8). We are taught in Romans 8:28-30, that God’s “chain” cannot be broken. The story is revealed along with Romans 11:29, and 2 Timothy 2:19. We read “and we know that in all things GOD WORKS for the good of those who love Him, (the Elect) who have been called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, he also predestinated to be conformed to the likeness of His Son.

He might be the firstborn among many brothers, and those He predestinates, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also Glorified. For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm. Sealed with this inscription: The Lord knows those who are His, and everyone who confesses the Name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Election is not abstract, but affects life in all its phases. Even though it belongs to God’s decree from eternity, it becomes a dynamic force in the hearts and lives of God’s children. It produces such fruits as adoption as sons, calling, faith, justification, etc. (Romans 8:28,30,33; Ephesians 1:4,5; Titus 1:10. We already stated that election concerns individuals. It has its final aim, God’s Glory, and it is the work of His delight.

Some further Scriptures on election are as follows: “God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” (2 Thess. 2:13). “And they (the angels), shall gather together HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.” ( Mat. 24:31). For the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened those days (at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.) (Mark 13:31). “Knowing brethren, beloved of God, your election. ( I Theses. 1:4). “Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s Elect?” (Romans 8:33). “But you are an Elect Race.” (1 Peter 2:9). “For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord, Jesus Christ.” (1 Thess. 5:9).
Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

The UNMARKED Souls, in the Bible, the opposite of the Elect, are referred to as REPROBATES. So, Sant Mat isn’t alone, in having Unmarked Souls.

Here was my research on Bible Reprobates for my Master’s Degree Theses. After reading about both Reprobates and The Elect, Churchless Members here might search their own souls, to re-establish whether they still feel they are members of the right Church!

REPROBATION

If you have ever run into any of this group yet, should you accept them because of their “gifts”? Notice, Jesus did not say He ONCE knew them, or that they were backslidden; He said He NEVER knew them! That meant they were NEVER elected to Eternal Life!

Saul, Judas, and many others were in this group, who did many wonderful works. Judas shared in the ministry as one of the twelve Apostles with access to all the Spiritual gifts except “saving faith.” That is one gift that was with held from him, or he would have believed, and the devil could never have entered him as he rose up to betray Jesus at the Last Supper.

Having said all this concerning the reprobate and the Elect, the only possible conclusion I have arrived at, along with multitudes of others before me, including many of the great theologians, is that Christ did not come into the world to die for EVERYONE’S sin! That can be a shocking statement, but, when all the Bible facts are examined together, the Bible teaches a “limited Atonement” on the Cross. Christ came into the world to die for the salvation of the Elect only, as shocking as that may sound. There are a great number of scriptures which seem to indicate a universal salvation offer to all, but, if closely examined, it will be seen as the outer physical call or invitation goes out to all, but ONLY the Elect “hear” the “inner” Spiritual Call.

One of the last Scriptures which held me from believing the doctrine of Election, was 2nd Peter 3:9.”The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.” The key words are “any, us, and all” in this passage. Upon studying it, Paul was speaking to whom he considered to be believers, of which he considered himself to be one of, because of his use of the word “us-ward”, which identified him with the group. Therefore, what he meant was God was not willing to loose ANY of the Elect, but would bring them ALL to repentance so they would be regenerated and be Born Again!”

The fact still holds true today. There are still numbers of the Elect in the world today who have not received that “inner” Call of salvation yet, and that is why Christ has not come back to take the church out of the world yet. However, there will come a day when the very last person on earth will be brought to the knowledge of the truth of the Gospel, and will hear that “inner” Call, and be saved. At that very moment, others will hear also, and the church will be raptured! ( The Rapture is taking place ever second, some place on earth, as each lost soul is found, and comes to Christ!)

Paul says that God has turned away from dealing with the Jews “until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in” (Romans 11:25). The Greek word for “fullness” is “Pleroma”, which means “full number”, meaning to the very last person, or in other words, the very last person coming into the church! God knows where EVERY LAST ONE is, and EXACTLY when they will be saved!

Returning to 2nd Peter for a moment, where it says, “not willing for “any” to perish, “the Greek word for “all”, “all should come to repentance”, translates “the totality of the persons or things designated by the noun.” In this case, the noun used was “us-ward.” Therefore, it becomes clear that God was talking about ALL of His Elect, and He was not willing to let ANY perish, as He still is not willing today! After examining all of the surrounding verses around “that” verse, it is quite plain to see Peter was addressing the Elect!

Paul said in Romans 10:13, WHOSOEVER shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.” But then, he adds in the next verse, 14, “How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed.” And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard?” The gift of Faith must be given by God in order for anyone to believe. The Bible says in several places that without faith, it is impossible to please God. But, how do we get this needed faith? Paul reveals it in Romans 10:17. “Faith cometh by HEARING, and HEARING, by the word ( Greek word “Rhema) of God.”

“Word” in the New Testament used two Greek words. In some verses, “Logos” is used for “word” such as in John 1:1, “In the beginning was the WORD (Logos) and the WORD (Logos) was God.” Jesus was the living Word or “Logos” and the Bible is the written word or “Logos”. However, WORD in Romans 10:17 is “Rhema”, which translates the “actual spoken word from God, Himself! “Rhema” WORD is when God speaks directly to the Elect’s spirit! That is how the INNER CALL takes place, by the “Rhema.”

This is the reason why a non-elect can listen to the preaching of the Gospel, or even read the Bible (Logos) for years, and not understand anything! The method God uses to call and save the Elect is to present the “Logos” which is Jesus Christ, His Word, and since this “Logos” is presented to the physical senses which are either sight or sound, He will transform the “Logos” to “Rhema”which is now Spiritual, and can be fed into the spirit of the Elect! Since God is Spirit, we can ONLY communicate with and worship Him in Spirit with our spirits! Until He “quickens” or makes our spirits alive by His Holy Spirit, we are just as Paul said we were: “dead in our sin and trespasses!” The reprobate’s spirit remains dead, therefore, can never hear God’s INNER Spiritual CALL to salvation! This same faith which cometh by HEARING the WORD )Rhema) of God, is a Spiritual Gift from God (I Corinthians 12:9) as well as a fruit of the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22). And guess what? The Lord Jesus was the AUTHOR, as well as the FINISHER of our FAITH! (Hebrews 12:2). “And being made perfect, He became the Author of Eternal salvation unto ALL that obey Him. (Hebrews 5:9).

We are told in Acts 10:34, that “God is no respecter of persons.” Does that mean He will treat all the same? No, it does not. I cannot part the Red Sea (or even a mud puddle) with a staff like Moses used; and I was not knocked off a horse and audibly spoken to by God when he saved me, such as He did the Apostle Paul.

It does not mean He will save the reprobate, as well as the Elect. It means God will save the Elect, not on any outward appearance or condition, such as Race, nationality, gender, age, rich or poor, bond or free; but He will save the Elect from all of those because of their heart condition, which only He sees. That is why He is no respecter of persons. Because all the Elect are not saved yet, in our day, as in Paul’s, we should follow Paul’s example and abide in Christ until all of the Elect come into the fold. Paul said, “I endure all things for the Elect’s sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ, Jesus, with eternal glory.” (2nd Timothy 2:10) In contrast, Paul describes the reprobate, and what they look like. “In the last days, perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, truce breakers, fake accusers, no self control, forceful, despisers of those that are good (the Elect), traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God: HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT DENYING THE POWER THEREOF: from such, turn away. For of this sort, are they (the reprobate) which creep into houses, and lead capture silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, EVER LEARNING AND NEVER ABLE to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (2nd Timothy 3:1-7). They certainly are contrasted from the Elect!

There is a scripture in Titus 2:11 which states “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men.” “All men” here, means from every class, race, nationality, nation, etc. It states in 1st John 2:2, “and He, (Jesus) is the propitiation for our (the Elect there, present) sins: and not for ours only, but FOR ALSO FOR, the sins of the whole world.” (meaning the rest of the elect scattered through out the world.)

Whenever the word, “world” is used, in the New Testament, it does not necessarily mean every single human being on the earth. The devil lays claim to “the children of darkness, or children of the world.” Peter talks about the “flood upon the world of the ungodly” (2nd Peter 2:5) “deliver us from the present evil world” (Galatians 1:14). “Sorrow of the world, worketh death.” (2nd Corinthians 7:10). “The god of this world is in the Scripture, and we should examine carefully of whether it refers to any specific group, rather than the entire world. The “whole world” could mean all of the Elect if that was the context of the verse, or all of the reprobate.

The word “all” should be closely examined with the same caution. For example, it states in 1st Timothy 2:3,4, “For this is good and actable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” That verse implies universal salvation for all individuals without checking any surrounding verses. But, if we study the context of that verse, we find in the proceeding verses 1 and 2 that Paul, was talking about “classes” of men, kings, and all in authority or leaders; he was not talking about individuals. So, again, ALL in that verse, means “God is no respecter pf persons, as He will save people from all classes, or groups, even kings or those in authority.

Therefore, in the light of all of the above, I believe I have presented a strong case, teaching the truth of God’s Inspired Word in the Bible concerning the non-elect. Paul told Titus about them in Titus 1:16. They PROFESS that they know God, but in WORKS, they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work, reprobate.

Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

I should add, when I wrote the above, and finished my Doctor Of Bible Theology Degree, I had yet not heard about, or read any Sant Mat books, so was a solid Christian that had not ventured off the beaten path yet. In fact, I had not read any of the Sikh or Hindu Scriptures yet. Dr. Johnson’s book, The Path of The Masters was the 1st Sant Mat book I read, and I was immediately hooked.
Jim Sutherland

[sant64]

Thanks for the rec on Anurag Sagar, I just saw that Ishwar Puri mentions that book in connection with marked souls. However, I searched for "marked souls" in that link for Anurag Sagar, but got no results, If someone knows the page number please post it.

I wonder though if we can say Anurag Sagar is in RSSB's canon of scripture. It seems that RSSB is no different from many religions is that it cherry picks what things from the world's scriptures are "Sant Mat" and what are not. Or in the case of Christianity, just bends dozens of quotes from the New Testament so that Jesus of Nazareth is seen as a vegetarian orthodox meditator of the shabd.

Speaking of Christianity, it's a matter of opinion whether Calvin's doctrine of predestination is even found in the New Testament. I don't mean my opinion, but that of the major sects of Christianity; most of them don't teach that God created marked souls. I can see though how the argument can be made for predestination. More to the matter, I can see why as well.

Anyway, I'm most interested in hearing from anyone who's been to the Dera and seen Charan or Gurinder do their marked soul inventory. As I mentioned previously, I'm skeptical that the seekers showing up to this pre-initiation vetting are facing a zero-sum appraisal of their chances for Sant Mat salvation. I suspect rather that those who are being turned away understand that they can apply again.

If that weren't the case, then it means that every time Charan gave initiation (which must have been in the hundreds if not the thousands) he was telling at least several people who deeply wanted initiation that they spiritually doomed, because Anurag Sagar you know. It's really hard for me to envision working out without chaos and endless bad feelings. Perhaps Western satsangis misunderstood what they were seeing and assumed the Guru was passing grave judgment, when in fact he was telling people to get their act together and apply again someday.

I guess there's something to be said for RSSB's emphasis on initiation and the seeker earning his initiation. On the other hand, there are those like Syd Barrett who feel devastated when turned down for initiation. One can wonder how Barret's life would have turned out if he's been allowed to become a satsangi.

[Ron E.]

It seems to me that the main similarities between the Abrahamic religions and organisations like RSSB is that they are basically dualistic belief systems, systems that cannot help but to encourage dogmatism.

And Parisa: - The Heart Sutra is basically a non-dualistic statement regarding no-self, the senses (skandhas) and the concept of emptiness – all which can be discerned through present moment awareness. Just practical, not esoteric.

[Gurudabanda]

@um

Please read my comments again, l said this organisation just do opposite of what Saints said

Regarding Guri Nanak or Kabir.. they all were saints and taught Santmat but before preaching they lived on these teachings

But GSD is opposite, he is not following what he preaches
1. Telling lie to court
2. escaping from court hearing
3. Making political leaders happy
4. Involved in scams and fake company
5. Grabbing Farmers and Public land
6. Supporting sex offender( you can read Brian's post where GSD didn't encourage a woman to report to police who was sexually assaulted his daughter)

List is too long.....

Also l am not saying because of any hate or ill feelings.towards RSSB or GSD.
I have spent many years in this organisation and observed very closely.

I really feel pity now on those people who has given many years of their life to this organisation while they could have used this time way better..all wasted

I believe in God but they RSSB shows the path to get him is Fake....

[umami]

According to Wikipedia, Syd was only 19 at the time and too young. He shouldn't have taken it personally but gotten used to the vows over the next couple of years. Instead he kept dropping acid, more and more until he went schizo. I was told no myself at 17 and relieved to turn from drugs.

I never went to Dera but made bhandara in '85 or '86, Delhi and Mumbai. I witnessed initiation in Delhi. One or two in line were sent away, especially a guy dressed in jeans and black leather like an Indian Arthur Fonzarelli. Rejection actually put a little spring in his step. I don't think he wanted initiation but was humoring his family or testing the Satguru's authenticity. Maharaj Ji kept solemn, but I caught a twinkle in his eye.

[um]

@ Guruda banda,

What ever information is available in the media I have take notice of..
I also did my best to follow and understand the court process.

But it is up to people, to attribute meaning and value to them..
You do it in your way and I do it in mine way.

To be honest until now I am not very much impressed about what is going on and I consider it as just another aspect of change that is going on in the world.

These things are all part imho of the worldwide transformations that are going on There remains little of what used to be our world say 30 years ago.

I try not to be caught in this global maelstrom and look upon it from some distance, drinking my coffee and holding on to what I personal believe to be important

I cannot speak for others, but I have never been duped in any capacity by this organisation, or the people involved. In contrary I had a good time and come to meet many interesting people and came to learn many things ...just for fun .. I I would not have been involved, I would never have been in India, visited the golden temple, came to learn about the rich spiritual history of in dia and would never have eaten .... pokora's, chai etc etc.

[um]

@ Umami

Take some coffee and try to remember what you saw in Mumbai and Delhi.
Try to remember the atmosphere BEFORE he started chosing people.
Try to remember what effect being chosen had on the people.
Try to remember the differences.
and.
Try to remember of him,.
Did he change, from this person to the next.
Was his level of attention and focus different between the first and the last

As you registered that tiny change in the person after being sent away, I might tell you certain things about the late MCS.

You saw sent away just a couple but I have seen sent away more.

It has been an impressive event for me, an event I will not easy forget. as Only the two of us were there as witness., sitting next to him at only a few yards.

No need to answer my questions, the possible answers are for you.

[sant64]

@Umami

I believe you're correct about Syd Barrett, or at least that's the same thing I've read about why he didn't receive initiation. I wasn't suggesting that RSSB was responsible in any way for his downfall, but I still have to wonder if his fate might have been different had he been given initiation.

Thanks for your account of witnessing initiation in India. It leads me to believe that the RSSB guru's personal vetting of Indian seekers isn't quite in line with the marked souls story found in Anurag Sagar.

[sant64]

TREASURE BEYOND MEASURE X

The following is perhaps the most poignant and revealing thing ever written by a guru:

August 19th, 1965

" . . . Destiny has assigned to me a very unusual role to play. I am always surrounded by the people who love me, and am thrown away from the ones whom I adore. Whatever I may carry within myself, I must laugh and proclaim that I am happy. This is supposed to go with my office . . . I must console and look after others. When I am happy, I must weep with them and when I am sad, I must laugh with them . . ."

Charan's comments go starkly against the popular perception most devotees have of their guru. "Master is enlightened and has no desires! Master loves each of us with abundant and unconditional love!"

The truth is that Master doesn't really love you. Master is only playing at loving you while he wishes he was somewhere else with someone else.

[um]

@ Sant64

"The truth is that Master doesn't really love you. Master is only playing at loving you while he wishes he was somewhere else with someone else.,,

THAT is the meaning and value YOU attribute to iit.

Others have seen it too and attributed other meaning and valoe to the same.

The question you could ask yourself, is :"How could I or any other human being have acted in that situation"

Take as an example the difference in reaction by the late MCS and the late Prof. B, dealing with the daily barrage of questions.
See the difference and ask yourself you you would have acted sitting in that chair.
Forget about masters etc etc just ask yourself could you have done it day in day out for decades of years.

What would it have done with your mood, would you have been able to withstand that pressure and keeping up the good face?

[um]

@ Sant64

And .. he certainly did not love people in the way YOU do.
You are right he didn't love anybody in that way
But that said how was his presence when you or anybody else would stand before him.
Could you and can you create that level of attention an presence as he could?

Yes if he turned away from you, you disappeared as you would never have been there in the first place .. that is correct.

The question is .. do people benefit more from the type of attention YOU give them or the way he did.

No need to talk for me about masters, perfect masters .. just withness the human being. can you compete with him as a HUMAN being?

[um]

@ Sant64

To be sure.
What and how I wrote is not mend to say something about you either good or bad.
It is jus an way to draw attention to something ..his visible human side
and the open question whether it was as normal as common of anybody else.
If not why?

[Jim Sutherland]

Regarding Charan looking to the right, as rejecting initiation to some, and looking to the left as accepting them,…..I heard his give an answer to that question on one of his Q & A tapes. Either he have it, or Prof. B. gave it, I can’t be certain, but the answer was,…..Charan usually rejected initiating married females or males trying to be initiated alone, with oit their Spouse, because he knew their family situation. As for our Proxy initiations in the West, we had to first ne interviewed by our Sangat Secretary, and convince him or her first of our qualifications, then, we had to fill out the long Application form, giving our personal information almost to how many moles on our bodies with locations, etc. ( maybe slightly exaggerated ) , with Application firm sent to our Regional Rep. In my case, pur Rep. was also a Seminary trained Christian with a Th.D. After our Rep. reviewed our Application, he Calked is for a phone interview. I would imagine it would be on Skype now. Then, one the Rep. was convinced , he would send the Application and his recommendation to RSSB for Charan, supposedly review, and de ice of we were Marked. In my case, that entire process too 6 months, and I was not notified I was accepted u til 8:30 PM, the night before the facility where the initiation was to be given! I had to drive 50 miles the next morning, meet the Rep. at his hotel, whom I had never met before, and follow him to the site, where I was initiated along with eleven other Marked souls!
Strange event it was, as how it all unfolded, because , I almost missed the MARK!
Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

Charan answers about Marked Souls, …..
Question. #449, Vol. 1, Spiritual Perspectives, pages 402-403: Bare with me. I have Cataracts and big fingers!

Question: Could you say something about how the master recognizes his own sheep?”

Charan’s answer: “Because the marking of souls is done by the Father, and he knows the marking is done by the Father. Only those sheep will come to him who have been marked for him. No other sheep will come to him at all. Someone may be living right under the master’s nose, but he does not have faith in him. He will never take him ad the master, only the marked one will come-though he may be living thousands of miles away from him. So the master does recognize his own sheep. Christ said: I speak parables because everybody is not meant to understand them. Only those who are meant to understand them. Only they will understand. The teachings are not for every body. The teachings are meant only for those who are marked to understand, who are allotted by the Father to understand. Others will not even understand the teachings. “

[Appreciative Reader]

faceth palmeth

The crazy, it burneth, verily like the bushes that bursteth into flameth. Blessed are the half-witted, for by the Lord's Grace they liveth the wisdom of Dunning-Kruger in all aspects of their life, the intellectual, the moral, and the spiritual, effortlessly and endlessly.

As one angel wittily remarked to another while stifling a yawn: Amen.

[Kranvir]

Gurinder Singh Dhillon and RSSB, Santmat can NEVER be linked to CHRIST in anyway - GSD is committing crimes and blasphemy to god. Here are some simple reasons why: Christ was tempted and never sold his soul to the prince of this world, KAAL, while GSD couldn't wait to get his dirty hands on his nephew's billions fraudulently. Gsd initiates any one, especially the influencial, to build his empire while christ wanted to simply free souls. GSD is the devil and liar, in human form whilst christ is god , truth , in human form. GSD creates confusion in Q&As whilst christ just simply tells the truth and instills clarity within you. GSD deflects karma from him self and puts it as a chain on sangat, whilst christ frees you from these lies and stories and beliefs. Christ destroys negativity with his positive energy and frees you while GSD imitates christ but uses negative energy to keep souls in pain and suffering and gets a sickly pleasure from it. Christ is simply himself, while GSD works very hard to create a manufactured image of a perfect guru by contract, although it's satan hiding.

[Sita Schilt]

We can just look within ourself..
Everything is there.
We have not really free will if you look inside.
Why do we feel,think and do things?
From where does it come?
Awareness is a fine way of life.
Just ´be´.

[Kranvir]

God is simply the word made flesh, which is truth, but gurinder singh dhillon and rssb, who is the reincarnation of kaal, twists this and say the so called gurus talk about "marked sheep" and the chosen ones. This marked sheep nonsense is a clever manipulate twist by rssb gurus, who are all fake and only serve to create a superiority complex , a them and us, and a division. Kaal, loves division , he creates religions and brainwashes people to take any one of his many religions and then causes people to sacrifice and fight for it, even though there has never ever really seen god in any of these religions. Gurinder singh dhillon has empty stories, creates confusion, and laughs at your face, and he wants you to do is kaals meditation that takes you to kaal. Gurinder dhillon, your days are numbered , you have been exposed as a fake, and a liar and a hypothetic, and you will face your karma

[Trez]

Radha soami dogmatism is Gurinder Singh Dhilion .

Who is lying endlessly on stage, see the eyes they don't lie he looks around as he's doing something, he is sending out negative energy's to the sangat so they never wake up stay zombiefied.

He is Satan's sevader and is here to take the innocent souls to his master kaal.

Even the meditation names are Satan's the first one speaks of Satan's light as he's is really a light devil who projects this so called reality.

Gurinder Singh Dhillon is his servant who's here to live in the money as he is and whilst he does that he takes your soul back to Satan.

Beware of the false Baba who masquerades as the innocent but is the Devil himself here to steal your soul