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February 13, 2024

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I too have read your book. But I was a vegetarian without reading your book
Even before getting initiated into radhaswami faith, I was a vegetarian. Then i left this faith or religion. But i am still a vegetarian and teetotaller, non smoker.

Books are written
books are chosen
books are read
Books are GIVEN meaning and content.

Books have no power to act, they are just tools, that are used and handled by subjects according their conditioning.

Consumers, do give meaning and value, to everything they chose to consume or not to consume.

Consumers made Bach, Rembrandt etc ...the producers do not have that power.

It is all outsourcing of personal responsibility ...
If YOU would love me, YOU would do XXXX
YOU make me happy
YOU make me unhappy

It starts at early age to make others responsible for one's own actions, thoughts and feelings

Just one day of carefully observing one's own and others behavior makes that clear.

OTHERS are always blamed and pointed at as the orgine, start, mover.

arun,
Wait, you left RS? I'm surprised, because you seemed upset months ago when I called out something Julian Johnson had written. I only mentioned it to underscore that times change. His suggestion wasn't as out of place in the 1930's as it is now.

One thing life is not is fair.

Awful title especially given that karma is no longer viable.

The broader topic was utopianism, as I recall. No one really talks about that anymore...except with contempt! Vegetarianism was supposed to save the planet. What happened? Plant-based turned trendy, and profiteers highjacked it. "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao," etc, etc.

You can't get the right answers without the right questions. I don't think the vows can stick very well without at least a little self-reconfiguration.

@ Umami

what do you mean with:

>> I don't think the vows can stick very well without at least a little self-reconfiguration.<<

Can you explain / elaborate?

"There is plenty of scientific evidence, along with ethical arguments, for not eating animals. I still stand 100% behind these reasons for being a vegetarian."

Science tells us that, at best, vegetarianism offers a mix of health advantages and disadvantages.
I've lived in vegan communities where mothers raised their babies on the highest quality animal-free fare. Without exception, all these children had stunted growth. Studies have shown that children on this diet also suffer from bone density and cognitive development issues. I guess Western children can get by with a lacto-ovo veg diet, but in my view, it's still a risk to their health. A vegan diet would IMO border on child abuse. Save a cow, hurt your children.

Science also tells us that, anthropologically speaking, vegetarianism is quite unnatural. In all of history, India is the only region of the world that's steadfastly vegetarian, and it's less than 40% of the population. Broadly speaking then, there has never been a vegetarian civilization. Except I guess maybe India, which now has 100 million diabetics, including the current guru of RSSB.

Science is also helpful in respect to dietary ethics. One study from Australia found that producing wheat and other grains resulted in at least 25 times more animals being killed per kilogram of usable protein than farming red meat did.

Vegetarianism is sentimentalism. Not science.

@ Sant 64

[livestock] farming, hunting and whatever integuments are needed for hunting, are all inventions like the wheel

BEFORE these things were invented people had also to live and survive.

So common sense tells me that BEFORE humans became hunters they were gatherers.

Gatherers of what?

Well whatever is found hanging and falling from trees and scrubs, all things that can be consumed as it is without any preparation.

The word "before" is a mysterious word and the use of int in the question "What was before xxxxx" opens doors to many insights.

um,

What do the vows MEAN? Why bother? It becomes a long process of self-conditioning and self-evaluation until they become natural. Athletic training restructures the physical body. "Spiritual" training restructures the virtual body comprised of desires, motivations and self-concept.

I grew up "needing" loads of meat. Now it repulses me. That's what I mean by reconfiguration. Over decades my neuro-physiological reaction changed structure. How? My thinking mind supplied all kinds of new meaning. We participate more than we realize. Keep the object in mind, and someday it'll fall like a domino.

@ Umami

Thank you.

But what about:
>> We participate more than we realize. Keep the object in mind, and someday it'll fall like a domino.<<

You are hinting at something but my grasp of english is not enough to see where your finger is pointing at

um,
I'm not entirely sure myself. I'm trying to put abstract impressions into words. Work time. Back tomorrow.
:::coffee brewing:::

umami, I think I know where you're at. There's such a thing as doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

Eating other sentient creatures in order to please our palate, or even to incrementally (as opposed to catastrophically) attend to our health ---- not that that latter is a thing, but still, even stipulating that for the duration of the argument ---- is so utterly lacking in empathy that, once you're thought it through, it cannot but diminish your humanity if you go back to doing it nevertheless.

----------

Incidentally, because this kind of ties in with the health part: sant64's invoking of children is dishonest. As usual. Because even granted that, only for the sake of argument, even granted that only children would be fed the flesh of other sentient creatures, and very selectively, to make sure they stay healthy. Adults would desist.

----------

Circling back: Vegetarianism good. Good morally. Good ecologically. Good for health (although sure, that last is arguable, I freely grant that).

But going vegetarian because you've bought into a bunch of nonsense? Not so good.

In sum: Does the latter "not so good" override the former "good"? That's how the debate should be framed, IMV.

I'll go with No. No, the not-so-good does NOT trump the good. But I can see how a very persuasive case might be made to argue the opposite, to argue that it isn't necessarily a good thing to do the right thing for completely wrong reasons.

I learned about RS at 17. Giving up intoxicants and going veg were relatively easy. Sex outside of marriage was a big problem. I wrote MCS asking him to waive that requirement and initiate me right away! He said no and that I should use my willpower.

43 years gone, and Kam bothers me very little, but willpower had nothing to do with it. Only time could imprint an aversion to sexuality, because I came to experience it as more trouble than it was worth.

Now, guys naturally lose desire with age, that's true, but not all of them accept it. Given the chance, many will dump the old wife and find someone new to fan the flames, dosing with Viagra as necessary!

Jeff Bezos is nearly my age. Say I had his billions, would I choose celibacy or Lauren Sanchez? Celibacy, no question.
Taylor Swift or celibacy? Celibacy!
Megan Fox or celibacy? Celibacy!
Zendaya or celibacy? Celibacy!
Natalie Portman or celibacy? Celibacy!
Felicity Jones or celibacy? Celibacy!
Celibacy, because (rightly or wrongly) I became invested.

That's what I meant by keeping the object in mind. I gave up on making any special effort, but I did feel conflicted all those years and couldn't help but ruminate on the issue. When Kam finally slipped away in the course of things, I marked it as spiritual progress! Three down, one to go. Meditation is the last domino, so the speak.

Looking back, internal mechanisms all of my own were grinding away beneath the surface. That's what I meant by participating more than we realize.

(Forgot to address my previous comment to um)

AR,
I did buy into the nonsense, but no harm, no foul.
Right thing for the wrong reason? No, not my point. It's more like things don't happen the way one expects.

@ Umami

I understood it anyway, Umamai.without addressing me
Thank you.

I do agree, if I understand you correctly, that in doing things, living life, it seems that under the surface there is an kind of activity of its own. There is progress on some fields or issues, without being able to say that "I" did something at will to make it happen.

I think I do now grasp what you mean with: " keeping the object in mind"


@ Umamai

coincidence???

https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/115557/

General Comment
This song is about the inevitability of your devils resurfacing no matter where you run. It's about how that which you run from will consume you because you will begin to see those qualities resurface in everything. It's an emotion that you're running from, not a thing outside of you. Because of this you're running from yourself and will never be away from it. The only way out of that is to purify yourself, not to run away from it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH3Fx41Jpl4

So your looking for the meaning of life, for answers , and you fall for the biggest trap the devil has on the planet - RSSB with mafia boss wannabe guru gurinder Singh dhillon. Gurinder must have thought he won the lottery, with this Bollywood actor, as he could be used and exploited by him to gather shahid own sheepish Bollywood fans and validate his existing sangat. Little do these sheep know that this fake ass guru talks absolute nothings and hooks into your feelings through shabads - which are nothing but spells to trance you. If you step back you will realize that gurinder has no answers, has no spirituality, and is a clueless guru laughing at how easy it has been to fool millions , including the bollywood stars, well educated people, and politicians, modi. He waffles on stage, and sends u confused while he only thinks about how he and his family can gain and how he can hide his lies, and his true self - kaal. Gurinder your days are numbered, you are the reincarnation of kaal, Lucifer. Wait how people will hunt you down when they wake up to how u have mislead them back into hell.

um,

Thank you that sizzling launch into Nina Simone. I barely knew who she was. I've heard her version of "Feeling Good" somewhere, possibly a TV commercial for a car. Here it is in an ad for underwear...
https://youtu.be/VXBPUPzulRw?si=WnbTg1PGsaYEZMRF
She must spin in her grave.
(Trolls: "How dare an old white man deny oppressed minorities their luxury automobiles and body positivity!!!
Me: "I don't. I didn't. Amazing how revolutions morph.")

I didn't get that "Sinnerman" had to do with Judgment Day until I read the other comments. Then I found the earliest recording (1956)...
https://youtu.be/0ZWlE502g_4?si=ZwwHiK_UPfflyMnw
What a difference! Les Baxter presented a dorky folk tune. Nina Simone enacted a psychodrama!

Meaning is attributed, as you often say, and great artists know how to evoke it.

Better still, meaning is attributed and great artists know how to ENTER it.

@ Umami

Here we go again ... hahaha

If you had written:
>>meaning is attributed and great artists know how to EXPRESS it.>meaning is attributed and great artists know how to ENTER it.<<

I have no idea what "Enter" points at here.

@#$@%$ ...[.from a European comic .thousand bombs and granates] the machine is again playing games with me

@ Umami

Here we go again ... hahaha

If you had written:
>>meaning is attributed and great artists know how to EXPRESS it.>meaning is attributed and great artists know how to ENTER it.<<

Comes with an unexpected twist at the end

I have no idea what "Enter" points at here.

I give in .. it must be one of Kranvir devils, playing games with me and the PC

I hope you can make something out iof it Umamami

um,
Enter. The way an actor enters a role and forgets his own identity, or the way one can get lost in a good book.

@ Kranvir

You should have something else to digest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj_U4oFClNw

@ Umami

That is a "complicated" form of attributing meaning and value, surrender, losing one's own identity, becoming another person, that would never have crossed my mind.
The late MCS used it as his definition of ..LOVE ... and ...I ... I am in no position to even think of it.

My fate is coffee.

“AR,
I did buy into the nonsense, but no harm, no foul.
Right thing for the wrong reason? No, not my point. It's more like things don't happen the way one expects.”


…Hey, umami.

Sorry, in that case I misread where you were coming from. Agreed, then, that outcomes are oftentimes different than what one might have expected starting out; and further that one’s habits and preferences lay deep roots that after a while go way beyond their original trigger, to the extent they become a part of us.

And you know what, if one must buy into nonsense, then this is as inoffensiveness as it gets, this non-violent* veg-eating meditate-two-hours-a-day woo. Agreed fully, no harm no foul, beyond merely the time and effort wasted; and maybe in some subjective psychological sense not even that; and so much better than so many more virulent religious ideas that are floating around in the world.


____
* Qualification as far as the “non-violent” part: Osho Robbins would disagree! But I’m prepared to see that as an aberration, an exception. What happened to him is not excusable, not by any stretch; but the violence there is far less institionalized than in so many other religions. Woo’s never pretty, and the blatant money-grubbing at the top makes it even less so: but this at any rate is close to as inoffensive as it gets.

Thinking some more, and expanding some, on what I’d said earlier:

I’d read about this a long while back, and I looked it up one more time just now: link: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/knowledge-analysis/

The short TLDR summary of that can be expressed in three words, a term that kind of explains itself: and that is: Justified True Belief.

Arriving at a belief that is true is good, but to have arrived at that true believe via a route that isn’t “justified” does not qualify as knowledge. It is, in short, and like I said, “not so good”. Because while in some isolated case it might have turned out fine; but that’s probably no more than happenstance, in as much as if your route to knowledge is “unjustified” and woo-ridden then there’s just as much chance of your believing really harmful things. So, taken as a generalization, woo’s never good, not even if in some particular case the effects of it might have turned out benign.

__________

But that’s as far as knowledge. When it comes to morality, then speaking for myself I’d say that the result is not quite as cut and dried.

The same principle applies, sure: To take as example this very case, even if some act is a moral good, like vegetarianism, then arriving at it fair and square is far better than arriving at it via some iffy route (like believing in rebirth and karma and other assorted woo). Because that good result is a matter of happenstance, and in other cases woo might well lead you awry; and should you exercise your judgment to select good outcomes and avoid bad ones, then you might just as well cut out the middleman and directly rely on your moral judgment, right?

That said, and speaking only for myself, I still think it’s better to do a moral thing than not, and better to avoid an immoral thing than not, no matter what. To refrain from stealing and murder on Sundays because you believe crazy old Yahweh’s going to run after you and bite you in the leg, is better than actually committing theft and murder. Likewise the vegetarian thing. Better that via woo, than not at all, is how I myself see it. Even if the opposite POV might also admit of persuasive enough argument.


(And like I said, that has nothing to do with what you’d said, umami, I realize that now. This present comment of mine is a further thinking-through on what I’d said the other day, and meant as a stand-alone comment on Brian’s main article.)

Shahid kapoor is only going by what his parents have taught him just like all children do as they grow up a little trash sticks but sometimes it becomes more like in this case. Never does it mean its the true path but just one hes stubbled on.

Gurinder Singh Dhilion is considered to be God in human form that's Gurinder Singh Dhilion aka Radha Soami Cult Leader.

Who's been exposed and ripped apart by all for being a con artist Baba who has been lying and Stealing money, land and properties from all who's he been in contact with. And alot more

That's about as bent as you can get as a baba who isn't even to be called a decent human let alone a god.

The only SEVA Gurinder Singh Dhilion has been abusing is the one which he's lined his pockets up with the millions of dollars of Seva your money!

Flights everywhere free, does F..k all, eats freebies everywhere and tells all its all his plan.

For the suffering and struggling to make ends meet says its all theyre karma.

As long as he's rolling in it and abusing it all he's happy and to hell with you

What a crook he lives of the sangats seva money doesn't work A HONEST LIVING And LIFE IS FAIR LOL

Maybe Shahid needs to do some more reading around he might even come across Gurinders trial of fraud, criminal activities and a lot more than he would have bargained for and soon see what he's got himself in to a hell hole

This piece of trash Gurinder Singh Dhilion, Radha Soami Cult has to be binned and thrown out forever if anyone is to find God himself

@ Trez.

In my book, those that5 walk the streets PRO or Contra are made of the same wood.

Sant Mat is also called a Bhakti Yoga. Your devotion towards GSD is exemplary, given the way you write here. Many an satsangi would envy you for the depth of your Bhakti

Your writing here does also serve his cause and THAT makes you also into an exemplary sevadar.

Out of the many people on earth, out of the many teachers in the world, out of the hundreds and hundreds of sant mat teachers in lineages after kabir, you have chosen THIS PANTH and out of the teachers of this particular panth, with its tens of branches and teacher5s you have selectively chosen him .. to hate.... and THAT makes you a real bhaklti.

To be free you should neither love nor hate.

Um , ever the devout RSSB sevadar, or are you gurinder singh dhillon the villain himself lol. Be aware the only person that gains from all sevadar is gurinder Singh dhillon himself and his family. He even murdered his wife shabnam, which I'm sure he said was a sacrifice for his cause and cult. This egotistical baba wants to be the super guru - a fake ass one of a mega cult. Just look how he puts himself in the front line of all those other fake ass gurus - but one by one they will all fall. He was also seen first in line at the asaram temple in India ( the one build over a destroyed mosque) very eager to see modi - this non political baba is being very political indeed - total creep. Um, you are backing the wrong person - gurinder is a mafia boss ring leader, disguised as a fake , a fraud, and a charlatan guru. Love love love on stage, but a dirty fraudulent crook in private.

@ Kranvir

I am not talking about him, nor about what I think and feel, I address YOU and TREZ for what you are doing HERE.

He is not an reality here but YOU and TREZ are.

You have told is by now for weeks, month and maybe longer, the same things not even old wine in new sacks ...and .. what you feel about it.

What do you want from us??

We are all informed, probably better than you and TREZ are!
As far as I remember none of you have ever added something news, things we didn't know of...NOTHING ...

What remains are the value and meaning the both of you attribute to him.
What do we get from being informed about your frustration, anger hatred again and again and again and again???

It is all about YOU and TREZ and what the both of you are doing HERE

So in my book the both of you are ..TROLLS

And .... KRANVIR

And if you read some history books, you might come to understand that the "BAD" guys did not have power of their own, they, without and exception derived that power from the masses.
\
It is quit simple Kranvir ... no snake-oil-seller ... would exist or remain comming to the market if there were no people like you and trez, people that are all looking for simple solutions, for a cheap deal.

Snake-oil-sellers are, if you understand, at service to the masses ..they are not to blame .. they are brought to life by the masses.

People might hate trump and they thing that if trump will not be in office, their problem with him is solved ... but he, trump, is not the problem ...but the voters.

It is a saying that all get the elite they deserve.

He expresses that it has helped him understand himself better and make sense of various aspects of his life. He describes his journey as not only being an actor, parent, soccer skills world cup or child, but also as a quest to find himself and his relationship with God.

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