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November 27, 2023

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Everything that exists, has PURPOSE.
Everything that exists derives its purpose from an other, higher purpose.
Everything that has purpose cannot know its purpose.


The clock is composted of many different parts, that all serve a particular purpose and the whole too does serve a purpose and that in its own turn does so as well.

Nature is kind of clock.

Culture serves a purpose in nature and nature too serves a purpose. .. a purpose we will never understand.by living a natural / cultural life.

If there is a higher purpose it by necessity must be .. beyond mind and matter

The puppets at a string can never know the puppeteer .. they dance because he wants them to dance.

What remains is surrender to our fate, and act as best as we deem fit in every moment of the day.. We can chose to do it with a smile on the face or the opposite .. doesn't matter ... we just cannot escape it.

For some it helps to surrender to life to believe and have faith in God, for others that is a millstone around their neck.

Live is to be lived ...and .. it is our birthright to have free choice and to reap the fruits of our choices.

To drink make coffee, drink it and enjoy it ... no religion, no science is needed and many more things people tend to prop into their minds.like identification with many abstracts things they are not, nationality, politics ..it is endless and kill and be killed for it or at least SUFFER.

Frequently the why question can be answered as for example “Why did you do that?” when questioning someone’s actions, or “Why is Russia attacking Ukraine?” All such questions have a human element - something that a human caused. But often, even simple why? questions seem to really be a question of how. When we ask “Why is it raining?” you could explain it in terms of various meteorological events but really, that would be describing a how rather than a why.

I reckon a lot of our ‘why’ questions when referring to happenings outside of human control, are really asking ‘how’ and how falls into the field of science – natural science. Why’ traditionally is the domain of religion and philosophy, Philosophy being described as helping us to analyze concepts, definitions, arguments, and problems. Religion describes the relationship of human beings to what they regard as holy, sacred, spiritual or divine.

Both are involved in looking for meaning and purpose in life. These are man-made pursuits, basically issuing from the confusion, anxiety, fear and insecurity that seems to be our lot. To say that life just happens is unsatisfactory to our ‘self’ that, as its main raison d’etre is to maintain it’s structure, its identity.

To come up with answers to the ‘why’ questions would make our minds, our self’s, feel more comfortable and secure – which is what religion and philosophy attempt to do. So, questions like do we have a separate, distinct self, capable of free will, surviving death, being reborn etc., become incorporated into our biological survival instincts causing these contents of mind to become of exaggerated importance.

If there was to be an answer to the why’s of life, my guess would be to realise totally that we have no separate self. It is probably only the driven desire to maintaining such a self that is at the root of much of our fear and insecurity and interminable searching for who/what we are.

Just a thought - and fun with it!


@ Ron

Your word reminded me of the narrative by Kabir, the Anurag Sagar.

It speaks of the relation between Kal, Sat purush and the humans.
If i recall correctly there was deal between sat purush and kal that humans were not to remember their soul, their home etc. === have a purpose beyond staying alive.

That translates to what is discussed here in that in general, humans are only interested in their survival, meaning that all activities, thoughts and feelings are directed on remaining alive ... and in my opinion ... that is also the case as how religion is used as a "help to survive" and/or to better life

So the purpose of every single element and the whole of it is directed on survival.

Whatever humans have at their disposition is their body, their mind is and cannot otherwise be focused on survival of the body. .. their mental capacities do not allow anything else as they are just not made for anything else then material survival and in its artificial copy, culture.

Rare are those that can bypass that inborn drive and EXPERIENCE the truth behind the narrative of Kabir. and others.

Better to accept and adapt to that fate .. the experiences as described by Kabir a.o. is beyond any human mental effort, so forget understanding it let alone striving for it.

Another essay in favor of the conscious, deliberate, and utterly impractical demotion of personal responsibility.

The reason why atheistic hard determinism is unsatisfactory isn't because it offends the ego. It's unsatisfactory because it concludes that every aspect of our existence has no value or meaning whatsoever. It concludes that ethics and morality have no value or meaning. It concludes that nothing is worth doing, and whatever is done is not worth doing well. That everything is an illusion born of ego, including love and charity and all noble virtues. That everyone is fated to their destiny, including all criminals.

If a philosophy is really true, then those who espouse it should be able to demonstrate it in their lives. But no atheistic hard determinist can do that. They obviously don't live as if they truly believe in their philosophy. The proof of that is that they regularly scan the news for current events, and then offer their opinion on social media about how this person is wrong and this person is right, how this government should do this and the other government does that, etc.

In other words, by their actions, they obviously fully accept that living life involves making countless moral decisions about good and bad, right and wrong, useful and harmful, productive and wasteful, responsible and heedless.

When you point this out to them, they say "Oh, but I had no choice for any of that"? GMAFB.

“Suicide is thrust upon us, not freely chosen, as is everything else.”

Wait, what??? What other things in life are “not freely chosen”?

Anyway, this whole fee wil vs. no free will is so incredibly interesting… and yet, I’m not sure the truth really matters anymore.

I mean, either we have free will or we don’t.

If we do have free will then that implies that our consciousness lies somewhere outside of our biology.

If we don’t have free will then the hard core atheists were right.

To quote Brian: - “But it is useless only because there is no User -- no Self, no Soul, no Commander, no CEO inside our head in charge of what we do, feel, and believe. We're an integral part of the cosmos. Nature is us; we are nature. Whatever happens arises out of that unity.”


The easiest way to see the fallacy of free will is to initially see the fallacy of the ‘self’ illusion. It can be observed that our entire identities (self structures) are comprised of all the information we have accrued throughout our lifetimes. Every thought and act are predicated on what has gone before and this parade of information can be perceived through simple awareness.

Basically, with regard to who/what has free will, we would have to postulate some sort of independ-ent entity, a self or soul that can act or will unimpeded by biological constraints. Such an entity can-not be found, only assumed or believed.

And, with regard to ethics and morality: The main objections to no free will usually revolve around religious and moral reasons. What people fail to recognise is that society’s existing rules, laws and cultural behaviours are designed to maintain, as far as possible, law-abiding societies. The only real issue is how and what punishment to mete out to offenders.

Quite often, just helping to improve a persons’ life situation can effect a change. At the other end of the criminal scale where a person is habitually prone to unlawful or extreme anti-social behaviour, then the prevailing laws and thinking of the existing culture would still apply.

Why Do We Exist? I reckon that is not only a wrong question, it is one of the questions we ask our-selves purely because we think, and our thinking is, and has to be, based on all the knowledge and information that pervades our consciousness.

Thinking, being the past, cannot provide us with such answers. Of course, it can aid us to solve prac-tical problems and issues, but is not equipped (or needed to) answer our metaphysical ponderings. Many of such questions are said to arise from our basic fears and insecurities and are perhaps magnified through our particular circumstances and inabilities to see ourselves and life as it is, rather than through a mind that of its very nature, limited by its own contents.

The answer (if this is one), would be to enquire into the very processes that contribute to persuade ‘me’ that I am a solitary individual, separated not only from nature and the rest of the world, but also separate from my own essential nature.

Sant64, given your track record of blithely and completely ignoring rebuttals to your half-baked arguments (Aqunas first; and then your fallacious argumentum ad consequentiam and argumentum ad populam; among others), and then going back to repeating the same old already rebutted fallacies, while, ironically, complaining that others, including Brian, side-step and ignore your points: given that, I direct this not so much at you, as at the fallacious argument you present here.

Atheism isn't a philosophy, and nor is determinism --- although, sure, these positions involve philosophic adjustments, sure, but at core these are not "philosophies", no more than is heliocentrism.

Had it been the case that believing in heliocentrism leads men to anarchy and sin and unhappiness and miserable lives and early deaths, even then, heliocentrism is still true, because at heart it is not s philosophy. Likewise atheism, likewise determinism. Your repeated objections along these lines are completely wrong; but more importantly, and regardless of whether they are right or wrong, they are completely irrelevant to assessing if atheism is right or wrong, or if determinism is right or wrong.

Haven't time to develop this thought now, I'll do that later maybe: But to me, the "we" in "Why do we exist?" would mean our conscious, lucid selves; so that the answer to that "Why?" is, quite simply, "Evolution."

As to "everything", the "Why" question is meaningless; because that question presupposes purpose. Thus, to even ask "Why" is to beg the question. That's a completely fallacious argument/thought --- whether made deliberately and disingenuously, or made innocently and in ignorance. If the latter, then hopefully pointing this out will help resolve the question.

Hi UM:
You wrote:
"Everything that exists, has PURPOSE.
"Everything that exists derives its purpose from an other, higher purpose.
"Everything that has purpose cannot know its purpose.


"The clock is composted of many different parts, that all serve a particular purpose and the whole too does serve a purpose and that in its own turn does so as well.

"Nature is kind of clock.

"Culture serves a purpose in nature and nature too serves a purpose. .. a purpose we will never understand.by living a natural / cultural life.

"If there is a higher purpose it by necessity must be .. beyond mind and matter

"The puppets at a string can never know the puppeteer .. they dance because he wants them to dance.

"What remains is surrender to our fate, and act as best as we deem fit in every moment of the day.. We can chose to do it with a smile on the face or the opposite .. doesn't matter ... we just cannot escape it.

"For some it helps to surrender to life to believe and have faith in God, for others that is a millstone around their neck.

"Live is to be lived ...and .. it is our birthright to have free choice and to reap the fruits of our choices."

I found this VERY moving. Thank you.

Hi Saunter

You have zero free will in the state of conciousness you actually deploy

But because you are in yr root the Eternal Omniscient OmniPotent Creator ( like each Soul is ) you can Go into the
'Know Yourself'. State
where u have 100% free will and see the Quantum Entanglement of our illusion

So both are true

Our Creator cleverly is voluntarily in amnesia in most Souls to fill eternity somewhat with (difficult to see) Love.
Without Cruel Evolution there wouldn't be Compassion
which is the key
At any time the Compassionados can exit this situation
with the help of Kabir like Living Souls who perfect know the situation

777

Everyone should pick their own purpose, and not believe what others say.
Although, they can learn as much as possible from the views of others. Others can help give one tools to evaluate and re-evaluate, and practices to practice that further help one form an idea, a sense of place, identity and purpose.

These things we build, and sometimes we build them under the influence of our culture, our upbringing, our psychology.

And sometimes we choose to look at these things as an observer, and find the balance of these, which none of these concepts alone could do. They are lifeless in themselves, but tools we can use, understanding them from a place of tranquility and objectivity.

If there is any purpose, it is to function at our highest level of capability. And that would be from a place of thoughtfulness.

Hi Brian

https://youtu.be/Ae8HZ7UeiNc?si=nGA01kMnUl8BoosG

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