Robert Sapolsky's overview of the first half of his book, Determined

Now that I've about three-fourths of the way through Robert Sapolsky's book, Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will, I was going to attempt a summary of the first half of the book (the second half focuses on the implications of living without a belief in free will).

Then I realized that the best person, by far, to summarize the initial part of Determined is the author himself. Sapolsky does this in a brief "Interlude" chapter. Below is most of that chapter. It should make pretty good sense on its own, though obviously Sapolsky is describing entire detailed chapters in just a few sentences. 

The repeated mention of "turtles all the way down" deserves some clarification though. That Wikipedia page gives examples of how this phrase has been used. Here's how Sapolsky talks about it early on in his book.

Here is the point of this book: While it may seem ridiculous and nonsensical to explain something by resorting to an infinity of turtles all the way down, it actually is much more ridiculous and nonsensical to believe that somewhere down there, there's a turtle floating in the air. The science of human behavior shows that turtles can't float; instead, it is indeed turtles all the way down.

Enjoy the summary:

Why did that behavior -- dastardly, noble, or ambiguously in between -- just occur? Because of what happened a second before, and a minute before, and a... The easy takeaway from the first half of this book is that the biological determinants of our behavior stretch widely over space and time -- responding to events in front of you this instant but also to events on the other side of the planet or that shaped your ancestors centuries back.

And those influences are deep and subterranean, and our ignorance of the shaping forces beneath the surface leads us to fill in the vacuum with stories of agency. Just to restate that irritatingly-familiar-by-now notion, we are nothing more or less than the sum of that which we could not control -- our biology, our environments, their interactions.

The most important message was that these are not all separate -ology fields producing behavior. They all merge into one -- evolution produces genes marked by the epigenetics of early environment, which produce proteins that, facilitated by hormones in a particular context, work in the brain to produce you. A seamless continuum leaving no cracks between the disciplines into which to slip some free will.

Because of this, as covered in chapter 2, it doesn't really matter what Libet-style experiments do or don't show; it doesn't really matter when intent occurred. All that matters is how that intent came to be. We can't successfully wish to not wish for what we wish for; we can't announce that good and bad luck even out over time, since they're far more likely to progressively diverge. Someone's history can't be ignored, because all we are is our history.

Moreover, as the point of chapter 4, it's biological turtles all the way down with respect to all of who we are, not just some parts. It's not the case that while our natural attributes and aptitudes are made of sciencey stuff, our character, resilience, and backbone come packaged in a soul. 

Everything is turtles all the way down, and when you come to a juncture where you must choose between the easy way and the harder but better way, your frontal cortex's actions are the result of the exact same one-second-before-one-minute-before as everything else in your brain. It is the reason that, try as we might, we can't will ourselves to have more willpower.

Moreover, this seamless continuum of biology and environment forming us doesn't leave room for novel portals of free will by way of the revolutions of chapters 5-10. Yes, all the interesting things in the world can be shot through with chaoticism, including a cell, an organ, an organism, a society. And as a result, there are really important things that can't be predicted, that can never be predicted.

But nonetheless, every step in the progression of a chaotic system is made of determinism, not whim. And yes, take a huge number of simple component parts that interact in simple ways, let them interact, and stunningly adaptive complexity emerges. But the component parts remain precisely as simple, and they can't transcend their biological constraints to contain magical things like free will -- a brick may want to be something elegant and glamorous, but it will always remain a brick. 

And yes, truly indeterministic things seem to happen way down at the subatomic level. Nonetheless, it's not possible for that level of weirdness to percolate all the way up to influence behavior, and besides, if you base your notion of being a free, willful agent on randomness, you got problems. As do the people stuck around you; it can be very unsettling when a sentence doesn't end in the way that you potato. Likewise when behavior is random.

As shown in everyday life, in jury boxes, schoolrooms, award ceremonies, eulogies, and the work of experimental philosophers, people hold on to the notion of free will with ferocious tenacity. The pull toward attribution and judgment, whether of others or of ourselves, is enormous and is demonstrable (to varying degrees) in cultures all over the world. Heck, even chimps believe in free will.

Nevertheless, we have a big problem, which is that amid all this science and determinism and mechanism, we're still not very adept at predicting behavior. 

Take someone with extensive frontal cortical damage, and you're on solid ground predicting that their social behavior will be inappropriate, but good luck predicting whether they'll become an impulsive murderer or someone who is rude to a dinner host. Take someone raised in a hellhole of adversity and deprivation, and you're pretty safe predicting that the outcome won't be good, but not much beyond that.

In addition to the unpredictable versions of predictable outcomes, there are a world's worth of exceptions, of thoroughly unpredictable outcomes, Every so often, two rich, brilliant law students murder a fourteen-year-old as a test of their addled philosophy. Or a Crips gang member facing his second stint in jail has his mug shot go viral and winds up as an international fashion model and brand ambassador for a Swiss fragrance line, squiring around the daughter of a knighted Brit business mogul. Maybe Laurey, out among the waving wheat in Oklahoma, realizes that Curley's a dull pretty boy, and shacks up with Jud Fry.

Will we ever get to the point where our behavior is entirely predictable, given the deterministic gears grinding underneath? Never -- that's one of the points of chaoticism. But the rate at which we are accruing new insights into those gears is boggling -- nearly every fact in this book was discovered in the last fifty years, probably half in the last five.

The Society for Neuroscience, the world's premier professional organization for brain scientists, grew from five hundred founding members to twenty-five thousand in its first quarter century. In the time it has taken you to read this paragraph, two different scientists have discovered the function in the brain of some gene and are already squabbling about who did it first.

Unless the process of discovery in science grinds to a halt tonight at midnight, the vacuum of ignorance that we try to fill with a sense of agency will just keep shrinking. Which raises the question that motivates the second half of this book... "What if everyone started believing that there is no free will? How are we supposed to function? Why would we bother getting up in the morning if we're just machines?"

Comments

[Sant64]

The first part, as unprovable as astrology. Then, the 2nd part:

"Unless the process of discovery in science grinds to a halt tonight at midnight, the vacuum of ignorance that we try to fill with a sense of agency will just keep shrinking. Which raises the question that motivates the second half of this book... "What if everyone started believing that there is no free will? How are we supposed to function? Why would we bother getting up in the morning if we're just machines?"

That's just it -- it's not even possible to truly believe there's no free will. It's nothing more than a philosophy to play with. The no-free-willer can theorize that their choices are only a result of an incredibly long chain of sensory inputs and genetic predispositions, But given that (as Sapolsky admits) no can can accurately unravel these causal chains, choices will still inevitably need to be made by the person the same old way that all of us free will believers make them. For example, getting up in the morning because it feels good to be active, it's necessary to make money or help others, or to eat breakfast, and so forth.

What the heck are we even talkilng about?

[Ron E.]

Personally, I am quite okay with the concepts of determinism and chaos, particularly as I see such things from the perspective of there being no ‘self’ (a separate, automatous entry that can alter a naturally deterministic organism).

I don’t necessarily believe that ‘everything that happens must happen as it does and could not have happened any other way’ as I can see that chaos, the unexpected, can intervene and change plans and intentions despite our wishes and expectations.

Determinism, in that our choices are determined by our biology in conjunction with environmental influences (i.e., the time and place we were born in, the culture, religion, education and generally, the current thinking, behaviour and beliefs) makes sense in that there is no entity, no detached self or soul existing separately from our biological bodies doing the ‘willing’.

Such a separate entity is simply, not necessary. Our brain/body organism works perfectly well in its function of navigating the environment it inhabits. Even our thinking processes emanate from previous experience and knowledge and the resourceful brain/body organism is perfectly able to modify its behaviour as new experiences and information are encountered and assimilated, laying the neural basis for possible alternative thought and action.

Of course, the precursor to understanding the non-existence of a free will arises from the realisation that the self structure is also a product of the mind/thought processes. None of this demeans the wonder and validity of what we are, in fact, it is somewhat arrogant of us to believe that nature is inadequate to live our lives fully.

[um]

Giving up the notion of free will, is only for the brave, for those that are able to SURRENDER ...surrender themselves and their safety to what ?? ... to the forces of the universe that make the sun shine, the trees grow and give food to the animals.

Matteüs 6:24-34
[ It has noting to do with Christianity, or even religion let alone how they use it, but it says something about the understanding of the speaker]

[Spence Tepper]

We all have relative free will. And you can see that some folks have greater freedom while others are enslaved.

We should use our limited freedom to help one another.

And if we choose not to help, I don't think claiming "I couldn't help it" is any excuse for continuing the same addictions of hate and prejudice.

I'm quite surprised by all the aging white guys who write philosophy books and seem to think they have no freedom. Maybe as one gets older they need a system of belief to cling to to justify their lengthy and dubious past.

We are all the products of reality. But thinking adults are supposed to be the icons of personal responsibility. Isn't that the very fruit of humanity?

But it seems to me these old white guys sitting and musing comfortably in their home libraries about the old of everyone else are the passing of an old archaic and racist system that blamed everyone else for the crimes they themselves committed. Let them believe whatever they like.

They are far from reality.

[um]

Spence in aikido we learn that the power one can exorcise ends at pour fingertips.

Nobody can change the mind of those that are in power, while they are not.
You yourself are an hospital general manager, you can take decision.
Yes it is up to you to listen and take heed of what others have to say, but in the end you have to exorcise YOUR power and you will do it YOUR way.

And as a psychologist you should understand the mechanism of dysfunctional environments.

Those soldiers, of "BREAKING THE SILENCE" at least do understand it as THEY are not at all interested in the welfare of Palestinians let alone have any human compassion. They publicize of the violence committed by their own army as it starts to corrupt their own morality and they fear that they will bring that violence home and act it out upon their near and dear ...as many an american veteran had to hide himself in the mountains etc as the violence had corrupted them.

Those in command Spence at both sides, walk around with painful ancestral, and undigested emotions and they inflict now the same misery that was inflicted on their ancestors upon others .... and in doing so they will create the next dysfunctional generation.

As long as the holocaust and occupation cannot be forgotten, the misery will go on and on ... and do not forget these ideological religious people at the background, waiting for their messiah to return, waiting and praying for the apocalypse to take place in their lifetime. The hypocritical Orthodox Christians, that are clapping their hands from joy at the background. The same holds for the other two.

If the lord does not bring the Apocalypse by they will do it in his name.
The american people are a nation born from religious extremist and law offenders from Europe ...THEY make it all possible in the Middle EAST ... for their IDEAL thousands have to lose their life and even more will see their lives ruined..

Listen to your ministers preaching in their churches and your stomach will empty from disgust ..even if the knock at the door of the hell they will not be allowed entrance .. their tallk of "good" is so bad that even the devil cannot stand the stench of it

[La Madrugada]

@Spence
I'm quite surprised by all the aging white guys who write philosophy books and seem to think they have no freedom. Maybe as one gets older they need a system of belief to cling to to justify their lengthy and dubious past.

Spence, it is YOU who need a system of belief to cling to to justify your lengthy and dubious past..

[Spence Tepper]

Hi La Madrugada

I do have such a system!
Just like you and the others.

But mine is special!

Just like yours.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"Spence in aikido we learn that the power one can exorcise ends at pour fingertips."

Actually Um, I must agree with Brian and Sapolsky on this point. The power started long ago in someone else's hands, long forgotten, beyond any record, and it will continue well past our fingers through those of countless others we will never know and who will never know us.

We are each a link in a massive, invisible and unbreakable chain.

Thank God for that.

[um]

@ Spence

There is no power at your hands.
We are all puppets in the hands of a puppeteer. acting out his lila.

As long humans are acting out in an environment, with tools that are not in their hand, they cannot control the out come.

You have never been able to change anything for the better.
Many have come before you and failed.

Hahaha .. even MCS complaine in public about it

[Ron E.]

There is a general misapprehension about free will and freedom generally. We are all free to live our lives in accordance with the natural laws that nature has evolved since time immemorial. That of course includes the natural laws that govern ourselves (and all other creatures) as to the manner in which our brain/bodies efficiently determine the ever-on-going processes that enable our survival.

The concept of having a discarnate mind with a separate self (which thought propounds) giving rise to the impression of a free will is unnecessary. Every other species on this planet has its being in accordance with natural laws as do we humans – the big difference is our habits of thinking.

Our thinking having been conditioned by teachings and beliefs that teach we are more special than other species, has endowed us with imaginary qualities that do not exist in the natural world – only in our minds.

The concept of mind, self with free will etc. has been more readily investigated in the far east mostly because the evolving cultures there enabled such exploration. All the while, we in western cultures struggled under the yoke of habitually accepted beliefs. It is only in the last couple of centuries or so, that western thinkers, exploring the natural world and its laws (along with the human brain/mind) began to question some of the established beliefs.

Perhaps the peak of freedom would be the realisation of our innate naturalness and its place in life along with the realisation of the distortions that a conditioned mind project.

[um]

>> Our thinking having been conditioned by teachings and beliefs that teach we are more special than other species, has endowed us with imaginary qualities that do not exist in the natural world – only in our minds.<<

Humans are special that is a fact ....special in the sense that they are the only species that can RE- create their original habitat and are able to survive in places where they otherwise could not survive.

All other species will die if they happen to be placed in circumstances that are not at par with their original habitat.

Moreover humans are able to CREATE an artificial "nature".. called culture. An abstract world, with abstract animals, forests, mountains and what more.

To communicate what goes on in one persons head with that what goes on in another persons head in order to uphold a common artificial world ..language is a must and means to communicate who acts where and when.

Overtime that has let to the misunderstandings that are discussed in philosophy and the notion that me, you, he , we and they are "doers .. creators of sort"

To maintain an artificial overlay, culture, that is probably necessary

Humans do attribute meaning and value ... they have too ...but they do not do it all in the same way ... and THAT ...will by necessity lead to survival bloodshed.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Ron
You wrote
"The concept of having a discarnate mind with a separate self (which thought propounds) giving rise to the impression of a free will is unnecessary"

I think this is the Crux of your argument, the argument for Atheism.

But we do not fully understand the carnate mind well enough to presuppose all it contains or all that influences it.

Nor do we understand what is really necessary to prove what the mind really is and how it functions.

We do understand parts, and that information has been learned through painstaking investigation and experimentation both among scientists and mystics, and a few philosophers.

But even all that is conceptual. The barrier between carnate and incarnate is conceptual.

The concepts of God and Spirit, Soul and consciousness are conceptual.

Even the concepts of matter and energy.

Even the concepts of derivative and summation.

Even the concepts of addition, subtraction, and division.

Even natural and unnatural are concepts we create and apply for our own convenience.

These concepts help us understand the reality before us. Everyone's definition may be somewhat different.

We use terms to describe the known and the unknown.

I see that Spirit, God, and Soul and are simply placeholders for what we do not yet understand but have some personal experience with. They can become very helpful to spend time focusing on, devoting ourselves to. This has proven very peaceful and there is research which supports the health benefits of doing so. People who practice their faith in God live 5-7 years longer than those who do not or who hold no faith in the divine.

Because they are largely unexplored, generally beyond reach, we should not be too dogmatic about defining them from where we are. The unknown should be respected as part of reality because all science proves over and over that it is real when it gradually pulls parts of the unknown into the known. And when that happens it generally looks much different than anyone thought. More was there than we knew. But its form was much different. Theories are confirmed, but refinements in the data can't be explained and require new theories.

Theories generally tend to be accurate about things we have good data on. And they get a bit off the mark when there is little actual data. So it is best to avoid judging and theorizing too far outside what is available.

For many people, God, Soul and Spirit are real experiences, real parts of their life. They are in this way, part of the natural world. There is no point in trying to discredit the experience of others, nor to assume one's own experience is anything more than a personal subjective experience.

For many people the concept of freedom, and of enslavement, are very real indeed.

The subjective world is its own natural reality.

And the complete unknown is also part and parcel of reality.

Science tells us we only know 5% of this reality. That fact should humble us and make us better, respectful observers and students.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi UM:
You wrote:
"here is no power at your hands.
We are all puppets in the hands of a puppeteer. acting out his lila.

"As long humans are acting out in an environment, with tools that are not in their hand, they cannot control the out come.

"You have never been able to change anything for the better.
Many have come before you and failed."

They did not fail, Um. Many have freed slaves. Many have raised themselves up through education. Many have accomplished new and wonderful things. The fact that you live in a home and are protected from the elements, that you can press a button and heat is generated, coffee is ground, and a warm cup is produced; even the fact that you and I, across different continents, can have a conversation here as if we were sitting across a coffee table, is testament to the fact that humanity has succeeded wildly in many things.

The fact that you can go into any Emergency Room and what would have been 50 years ago a catastrophic and fatal heart attack can be entirely prevented, is a miracle. And it happens all the time. We've gotten so used to it we don't appreciate how miraculous that is.

With all the genius of humanity, and the fact that, like the Lotus flower, we have emerged and have our feet still in the mud, and yet survive still as a species, is nothing short of a miracle, against any real and reasonable criteria.

And why? How?
Diversity.
The more diverse the workforce, the more ingenious the innovation, and the more humane the direction of our societies' development.

The power of diversity might, in the short term, create conditions for war. The power of Faith also, might be misconstrued as the excuse for war. But once accepted as permanent, as part of our personal reality, becomes the basis for adaptation, inspiration, and strength. And that adaptation becomes the foundation for progress and survival.

What human beings have done, taken in totality, is a cavalcade of miracles, created through the mechanism of a miraculous evolutionary system of genetics and adaptation.

Human potential, because it is beyond anyone's ability to fully achieve, is the basis for endless striving for progress.

In a few short years, everyone will drive an automobile that yields zero carbon footprint.
Once, people, in fear, said we should go back to enslaving horses for transportation.
They were wrong.

The future holds everything new, and we should support that effort.

We will. It can't be helped, as you write.

Once you understand that what is within you isn't your personality alone. It is far more than that, then you will see there is diversity even within you. You can debate with yourself, you can argue from any point of view you choose, and new arguments will marshall forth to support you from within your own amazing mind.

The diversity starts within our own selves, the yearing to grow into something else, the inner pleading to listen to what we had ignored.

And honoring that, accepting that we have steps to take, that our journey is forward, then we learn to honor the diversity all around us.

And that diversity, understood, is our strength, our survival and our future.

[um]

@ Spence

These things might impress you but they do not impress me, nor have ever done.

Those who do all these things you wrote about remain who they are, they do not change.

I older days when knights etc entered a home they had to leave their weapons at the entrance. ...In the world I lived in, all that enter our houses have to leave their achievements, their social status behind and have to enter as they are, so that they can be seen in all their nakedness as humans.

You focus on the "unique variation of the same", diversity as you call it, that is not I ever focused on.

The beauty of the variation is to be found in the sameness.

That focusing on the uniqueness and the identifying with it shows now its ugly face in Gaza.

[um]

@ Spence

IF ...if there is an door that opens to heaven and one there is a waiter that demands justification of one's life, he will say:

WE .we gave you this or that talent, wealth, health and other things people label as "Good", WHAT have you done with it?

To others will be said

WE ...we gave you all sorts of misery to live with, what have you done with it.

In both camps their will be "winners and loosers".

The point is ... that everybody gets the SAME change to deal with life.
And that has nothing at all to do with any sort of appreciation in society etc .

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote:
"Those who do all these things you wrote about remain who they are, they do not change."

Not at all. They are entirely changed. Leaders emerge and guide others, emancipate others, first through the idea of doing good...even a greater good than was done in the past, through the collaboration of human beings called "technology" and "science"...and real "Education".

People are different. And it is honoring their diversity that actually helps to bring people closer together. And then they see that there is much the same. We are all brothers and sisters of the same family of humanity.

The sameness also emerges, but only as we accept and learn to celebrate the diversity. What makes you and I different isn't wrong or bad. It can be the basis of helping raise us both to a higher understanding and the live more functional lives.

The beauty of reality is variation...that things unexpected, unplanned for happen...And whether they are good or bad all depends upon that incredible human mind and what it chooses to do with that reality.

The reality of conflict in Palestine and Israel only draws us to the past, where Israel created industry in the Gaza strip that drew Palestineans to the region for employment. Israeli's created huge green houses in the middle of the desert to build a produce industry, and they also created a huge tech industry as well. They brought technology and culture with them. There were very few Palestineans living in the Gaza strip until after the state of Israel was established, even after the '67 war when they occupied Gaza. They created industry and employment and the Palestinian population expanded dramatically.

But with it also came Terrorism. And Oppression.

Today Israel is a modern, high-tech, highly developed culture in the middle of a third-world region where the immense wealth of oil barons are not shared with an impoverished people in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Iraq, Iran, etc.. They enslave their own people, using religion and hatred of others.

But they still are developing. Even in these nations, people raise themselves up, and are provided more education and opportunity than in the past.

The solution will be to move the entire region forward to greater education and opportunity while valuing the beauty of their cultures, but not the horrors within those same cultures.

"Be Like Melting Snow
Wash Yourself of Yourself."
Rumi

The middle east has a rich mystical culture, a rich culture of respect for humanity, even acknowledging the unity of all people, and the beauty of their diversity.

We must build from this. And add to it our own capacity as the world's catalyst, for good.

Then, Palestine and Israel will become the greatest positive example of development, equity and freedom for the entire world.

The very extremism that exists today, properly catalyzed, transformed and combined, will produce the greatest production of good.

Any plot of dirt can become a palace, with imagination, effort, engineering and teamwork.

[Ron E.]

@Spence “I think this is the Crux of your argument, the argument for Atheism.”

Well, you got that assumption totally wrong and the rest of your comments are little more than an attempt to proselytise and convert, which is probably why you always need to have the last say – to save the less enlightened.

The crux of my argument (as you put it) has nothing directly to do with atheism, I merely point out the obvious, which is the fact that mankind has lost its connection with the natural world, the world that we all experience every moment through our senses, in favour of a world that is mostly comprised of thoughts, opinions and beliefs. My sympathies at the moment lie with the revelations of the natural world from science – and to some extent with some Buddhist teachings – on the nature of mind and self etc.

There is, I believe a need to re-discover our naturalness and connections with the natural world around us. Although we live in man-made environments that afford little connection with nature, at least it is possible to re-connect with ourselves, not the selves that thought has created but the selves that can see, touch, feel and generally sense ourselves the environment and the people around us.

What you generally comment about is this mentally created world, yes, its real, but a poor substitute for the healing natural world about and within us. Nature is not a concept, but as we approach it with our ideas and opinions, we make it such. And yes, everything is basically natural, even our enclosed thought systems, though sadly they often have the effect of convincing us that they are more real than the world – and people – we experience.

Thoughts, opinions and beliefs, whether true or not, obviously (e.g., Israel, Ukraine, Trump-ism etc.) are a festering source of the on-going conflicts and battles that reflect our own inner turmoil’s.

I have practically no advice except perhaps - get out of your head and embrace the real, natural world that your senses reveal.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um:

You wrote:
"IF ...if there is an door that opens to heaven and one there is a waiter that demands justification of one's life, he will say:

"WE .we gave you this or that talent, wealth, health and other things people label as "Good", WHAT have you done with it?

"To others will be said

"WE ...we gave you all sorts of misery to live with, what have you done with it.

"In both camps their will be "winners and loosers".

No Um.

He will ask the one how they helped the other.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, “I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.”
Mat 25:31-40 (NIV)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Ron:

You wrote
"I have practically no advice except perhaps - get out of your head and embrace the real, natural world that your senses reveal."

The world your senses reveal is not the real, natural world.
Even you have no direct access to that Ron. What you call "senses" is a derivative, highly augmented construction.

Take a look at the line above. It appears straight. But what is actually hitting your eyeball is curved. And upside down!!

You don't see it curved and upside down the actual way it hits your retina. You see the augmented, adulterated version your brain delivers to your higher functioning mind (and that is overstated).

And if you don't like what you see, your brain can prevent you from seeing it, even feeling it. You have no clue what is being edited out even now. Same with what you hear. You aren't hearing what your senses are reporting. You have to use your attention to get to that. And that is work.

Enjoy the illusion, Ron, but it's just a construction. Certainly no excuse to denigrate anyone else's experience.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Ron!
Here's an experiment you can conduct for yourself, the next time you are out in nature on a full moon, enjoying your "senses".

Take your cell phone with you.

Look at the moon.
Take a cell phone snapshot.

Now hold the cell phone picture up next to the actual moon.

You will see that your brain has magnified the image of the moon beyond all proportion.

Your cell phone shows an object perhaps 1/4 the size your brain presents to your mind.
You can see the difference right there.

Your brain does a magnificent job of magnifying, pasting together, better than any CGI work.

It chooses what you attend to, what to magnify and, sadly, what to delete.

Go ahead. Blow your own mind with your cell phone. Enjoy the "natural world" in your brain.
And learn that the totality of reality is a tad more complicated.

[um]

@ Spence

Humans have been solving the problems they faced at that moment and in doing so they created more problems and more difficult to solve until this vary day.

The same problems that humans had to face in the past, they still have to face to day.
Nothing has change for humanity and nothing will change.

It might be your understanding that your life with all its commodities is better than that of a tribes person but that is not mine.

The uniqueness is not between the variations but is in honor of the sameness.

We opened our door to an nuclear physicist to become, he wanted to spend some hours with us because we just saw and handled him as a human being, we were not interested in his achievements etc ... we like the man.

You see spence, whatever you write here is of no value whatsoever to me but it speaks of who and what YOU are as a human being.

You see many tribes have been able to survive and strive, without that desire to change for the better. They live in better circumstances than the ever growing mass of people that live a miserable life as can be seen in the slums of the cities in your country.

These tribes people have more human dignity than the millions of people in your country that are excluded from participating in those activities you speak of.

You see Spence it is very simple, it is impossible that ALL people can live at the same standard as those of the western world, for the simple reason that the cost in terms of labor and energy would be to high.

Those that live in wealth do so at the expanse of others ... it is not my fault that we live in a dualistic world. For a wealthy one to be wealthy, others have to be poor etc etc.

Equality in the world you live in is impossible and not even looked after, you live in a world were equality is looked upon with disgust.

Equality is only possible at the level of sameness.

The missionaries went into the world to help ... that means that they look down upon others

[um]

@ Spence

The missionaries and the colonialists went into the world to force THEIR view on the world upon others.

History books tells us what were the consequences and how it was done.

Today that fight is on global scale and is not peace that is brought, not equyality but to submerge and subdue the rest of the world in the EVIL OF WEALTH

The majority of the world is NOT interested in YOUR, western values and meaning based upon Judeo-christianity

[Ron E.]

Spence. We all know that the brain presents reality (probably) different to what it is, but that's our natural perceived reality which allowing for individual differences - unlike the 'realities' that thought presents. Afraid to say Spence, you seem to live in a thought created world of beliefs and very strong opinions that you want others to adopt. But, you have little choice.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"You see many tribes have been able to survive and strive, without that desire to change for the better. They live in better circumstances than the ever growing mass of people that live a miserable life as can be seen in the slums of the cities in your country. "

Far more people today survive and live long and healthy lives because our society supports the efforts of its citizens to do so.

Rates of infection, infant death, disease, childhood mortality all prove beyond doubt that civilisation treats it's citizens far better today than one hundred years ago.

And yes we have further to go. But if you really want to join a tribe and give up medical care please proceed forth. And of course that daily coffee will be well beyond reach, along with your internet sounding board.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Ron
My little experiment on a full moon wasn't simply to prove the mind attenuates what you see, but for you I see it for yourself, with your own "natural" senses, to see the miracle of how the brain functions.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"The majority of the world is NOT interested in YOUR, western values and meaning based upon Judeo-christianity"

Everyone wants a roof over their head and to live in freedom and safety. Everyone wants their kids in school, fed, healthy and safe.

What is evil is denying them their right to earn and to have these.

My values are for diversity. That is not merely survival, but how we grow the personal wealth of our shared experience.

Moving forward is natural. And inevitable. We are hard wired for it.

[um]

@ Spence

>> But if you really want to join a tribe and give up medical care please proceed forth. And of course that daily coffee will be well beyond reach, along with your internet sounding board.>>

Spence ... you are a sales man ... if not a snake oil seller.
I am not interested in the sales, whether snake oil or not, but in the man that sells and the person that buys.

If a person does not enjoy food, you can put whatever delicious plate before him, prepared by the best chef in the world .. he simply will not enjoy. etc.

[um]

@ Spence

>>What is evil is denying them their right to earn and to have these<<

That is exactly what it is ... just take a sabbatical year, and drive around in your country and see who has what and why and how that is related to one another.

For winners to take all, others have to lose all.

The abrahamic religions, as history books show and even their so called holy books, have been a curse for humanity.

Just have some coffee and think about how each of these 3 religions looks upon others than himself and how they relate to "the other"
You will find that other religions lack these attitudes that have caused so much misery to the world

[Ron E]

Spence.
Of course the brain is a evolutionary marvel. It enables survival in conjunction with the body's senses. All of this is natural. No need for mystical free will, self's etc. or gods.
Even though our senses naturally only present us with what is necessary to survive, those impressions are our reality and not the many thought enduced beliefs an opinions.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Ron E.
You wrote:
" No need for mystical free will, self's etc. or gods."
Perhaps for you.
But perhaps such beliefs arise as part of our nature. Perhaps they are built into many, deeply, there for discovery and exploration.

To claim something is or isn't necessary can only apply to an individual.

For some the experience of God is part of their daily experience, the very gifts of life itself.

So, it would make more sense to say "it isn't necessary for me" than to make a statement for the entire human race, especially when we know so little about the actual functioning of the human brain.

I propose that it is natural, wholesome and part of may people. The fact that people who actively participate in their belief in God live 5-7 years longer than those who hold no belief in God nor any active practice in their belief speaks powerfully to the hypothesis that active belief in God is not only natural, but healthy.

It may indeed, for may, be entirely necessary. Logically speaking. Scientifically speaking.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Ron E.

I'd like to go one further, on your comment that we should just get out in nature and experience what our senses report.

I do this often.

My senses report an overwhelming experience that becomes deeply emotional. All of life is alive and conscious! And part of a hugely, mind-bogglingly complex system that is fully aware and extremely gentle. And always in balance. Whatever we see are events that have taken eons to create..every visible moment.

And in that instant, I see the whole and am part of it...for that instant.

I can't help it.. It happens in an instant Ron.

Go out in nature. Follow your own advice. Go without GPS or map or watch or cell phone...just start walking directly into the woods for at least an hour. Just go and keep on going and be one with nature. Just as you advised. Get lost in nature. Go beyond your mind's ability to make sense of where you are. Get Lost. For real. Just be with your senses.

In minutes, Watch yourself become terrorized, and then at peace, understanding that your were guided there, and will be guided back out. What guided you all through is far more powerful, benevolent than you. And you can learn to trust it. It doesn't come nor go with your attention. It IS.

Go so far as to be entirely lost and beyond your capability to navigate. Go there and make the same discovery. Right in nature.

And if night falls, watch the stars. See them gradually spin around the earth and know you are on a gigantic space ship hurtling through space and time. Under far greater and older forces than you could possibly imagine. All the power that is, is beyond your senses. Unless you really do open up to them.

[um]

>>But perhaps such beliefs arise as part of our nature. Perhaps they are built into many, deeply, there for discovery and exploration.<<

Yes ... PERHAPS

These beliefs are all part of a narrative.
These narratives have a beginning and an end.

These narratives do all find their source in problems for which their seems to be no solution at the time of birth.

Humans have to face an outward reality and an inward reality.
For the outward reality they invented language to make it possible that all live in the ILLUSION of an common reality.
That same language is used by those that had inner experiences, a language that is neither suited, nor able but to create an illusion of an inner reality.

The abrahamic tribes were searching for land and their "pagan" gods would not deliver ... until one of their elders, had the charisma to convince thgem that there is just ONE god and that ALMIGHTY god had given them the land etc. as his chosen tribe.

Nice solution for a problem that was weighing heavily on the tribe elders.
The problem is however, that this solution created another problem as the elders of other tribes all over the world in THOSE days were never informed ...AND ... that has been the beginning of thousands of years of bloodshed even until this vary day.

It will stop when the 3 abrahamic religions will be forgotten and part of human history

New circumstances ...new narratives

Like in science were one theory replaces an older one ..narratives too.

[um]

@ Spence

The late MCS said that the pull must come from within and that it is given, like hunger and thirst it is in nobodies hands.

There are people that are gifted with this or that talent, talents other do not have and will never have.

The gifted one can share his wealth with like minded ones not with others.
By going to a concert hall, listening to a piece of music, one can enjoy it at ones level but by listening one can not arrive at the level of the composer or the conductor, unless one has the same musical talent.

It is alright for you to enjoy your gifts.
For reasons unknown to you and us, you are gifted with them like 777
No need to tell others that they can have the same.
They can NOT and you know that or you should know it.
Have the humility to accept the fact that it was given to you for not reason or effort on your side, be grateful .
There was a reason why mystics and the late MCS went on and on to say that one should not speak up about ones GIFTS.

GIFT...!!!

Do not send Ron into the woods, he has nothing to do there.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um

You wrote:
"No need to tell others that they can have the same.
They can NOT and you know that or you should know it."

Really? Do you know each person's heart? Who will make progress and who will not?

Which Palestinean will find God today? Find peace, find brotherhood with those who they thought were their enemy? And which Israeli?

It is happening. You just can't see it. But its effect is whatever peace, whatever moments of peace the region has seen.

There must be moments of peace and brotherhood in order for acts of terrorism to be effective.

In a totally helpless world of darkness, terrorism is continuous.

Fortunately, that isn't so here.

From my view, everyone is making progress. Sometimes it is in having to accept things as they are. But that is only the first step in working to make those things better.

For those who claim they are entirely powerless to do anything, I get that. But understand you are already submitting to forces you may or may not understand. And once you see those influences, it is appropriate for you to resist them and overthrow them...Or, when they are benevolent, to submit to them entirely.Once you see what is moving you, you have incredible power for personal, internal freedom from those things that harm, and to adopt and become one with those things that heal and help.

All this unfolds like a flower, in the sun of growing awareness. And growing awareness, through practiced effort, through meditation, through careful seeing and thought, through observation and science, through education of any kind, is within everyone's grasp. Once they are willing to acknowledge they may not know everything.

"I don't really know" is the first step to personal progress, Um.. That is in everyone's reach.

[um]

@ Spence

>> "I don't really know" is the first step to personal progress, Um..
That is in everyone's reach.<<

There is nothing to know
there is nothing to be changed for the better,
There is no progress possible.

The crow, is born a crow, live as a crow and dies as a crow.

The sun too

It SEEMS that we have freewill and free choice because we are made to see it that way, in order to fulfill our part in the lila.

But ... at closer consideration and much coffee, it only seems so.

Those who found out about illusion, went on drinking and enjoying coffee as before.
That is how it has to be ..ordained

[um]

@ SPENCE

After writing the previous reply, i heard in the background a young lady reciting a poem ...she said that we are all born perfect but during education we are being told an ly about opurselves, that we havwe to be better and by accepting that lie we lose our freedom and become slaves in the hands of others

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um:
If you learned something new from that young women's song, that would be great.
But it appears that you interpreted this as an echo chamber of your pre-existing nihlism.

I fear the other woman who sang about emancipation and freedom was entirely ignored.
But both are singing from very real points of view.

It is OK for you to choose helplessness and hopelessness, as these honestly reflect your experience.
But for those who choose hope, and help, freedom from enslavement, it's there.

And all things grow, Um. This is evident all around. What will each flower become? Not the same flower, it's own flower, and for that we must wait and see and learn to enjoy. That flower need not live up to your static and old standard, for that is a formula for nearly all flowers to fail. But to become its own flower, a shining example in its own right. The natural success of growth, of creativity that happens all the time.

[Spence Tepper]

With the above in mind, you, Brian and I, AR and Manjit, etc...are all "Satsangis" , seekers of truth, each in our own way, but vastly different in tone and conclusion.

[Spence Tepper]

And finally, while we are all different in tone and conclusion, all are flowers worthy of celebration, products of reality and the beautiful diversity reality creates.

[um]

@ Spence

If the crow does not need the help of others to be a crow, why would we?
But in order to participate in that manmade, ARTIFICIAL, replica of nature what we call culture, we are made to believe that others know better, that we have to listen to them etc. ... that is CREATING a need, that ends up in an addiction like the use of nicotine, alcohol and worse.

You see spence I am not at all interested in wealth, whatever form it takes .. material, mental or even spiritual, nor about the ways that wealth is made., by work, heritage, gift or crime.

If a person wants to use his life for it, for heavens sake, who am I to comment on it. It is THEIR life and let them do with it whatever suits them ..and they will no doubt reap the fruits, sweet or bitter.

But let that not go with the evil suggestion that such an wealth, such an life, is a sine qua none.

If that makes me a nihilist .. so be it, you too are free to attribute meaning and value according your liking.

Nothing wrong with "hating" the sound of the rooster in the morning but it is wrong to blame the rooster, the rooster is perfect.

[um]

@ Spence

In older days, when I would still consider myself a "satsangi" I certainly would have something to say about the rich and the wealthy that take such a prominent place in the affairs of the sangat.

People might think of themselves that it is "good luck" to be shown on the stage or sit in the frond row but that might be done for them to learn a [bitter] lesson within the narrative of sant mat.

Today I have left those "gazings" behind as there is nothing to understand.
.
I told me to live a simple life in a simple way and a natural life in a natural way. Yes the wealthy and the rich are npot excluded ... should they abstain from that wealth etc ... not at all, ...it is just the way how wealth is handled that does matter.

I had the good fortune to be some days in the company of some near and dear to the late MCS and experience how that mastery of being natural and simple fits together with high education and lots of material wealth.

Their company was as the sun in the end of the summer and the beginning of spring,
it doesn't change anything but its warmth is a delight. I never had the idea I should or would become like them, let alone that they emitted something the like, but if it will be within my fate to become like them, others will feel that warmth too.

Maybe i should change the brand of my coffee ... hahahaha

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um;
You wrote:
"f the crow does not need the help of others to be a crow, why would we?"

We all need each others help most of the time, and we depend upon it. But in modern civilization, those roles are fulfilled by public service workers, and other essential workers largely in silence, and without being seen.

They are still there helping you have what you need in terms of material items, utilities that function, and medical services...always ready whenever, always serving in silence.

There is a tremendous, humbling experience in that awareness. We should never take that for granted.

And if anyone needs help to provide service, we should certainly help, and can look for ways to do so, to ready ourselves to be of help to them.

Don't worry about the rich, Um. If you must focused on others, use your attention on those who could really use the help. There are more of them, and most are indeed asking, and most of those will respond with gratitude.

So you can return whatever gratitude you have in service to your fellow human beings. It's a very, very beautiful thing, amidst all the tragedy. And we make ourselves beautiful by engaging in such service. Just as our Master has taught.

[Appreciative Reader]

Haha, um, reading your recent messages reminds me of the boatman --- and after, the boatmen, plural --- from Herman Hesse's iconic book, maybe you've read it? Siddhartha would concur with the spirit, the essence, that you bring forth there, in those last two or three or so messages of yours, that I enjoyed reading, very much.

[um]

@ AR

Yes I have read it probably.
In those days it was kind of "must" to read his books
I remember a book by its German title "Das Glassperlen Spiel".

I also remember vaguely "L'étranger" by Albert Camus

It was the atmosphere in those books.

[um]

@ Spence

Yes, you are a manager and it is natural for managers to look after the affairs of others.

That is all right, like the fate of the farmer is to grow food for others it is part of their dharma.

[Appreciative Reader]

No, I meant the other one, the eponymous one about Siddhartha. Most of what Hesse's writen is thought-provoking, at least those I've read, but the one that truly stands out, IMV, is that one. I first read it when I was still in school I think, plucked off of my grandfather's library when I was visiting with him, and remember having been blown away by that simple yet profound tale. And I continue to think, even now, that he got it spot on there, did Hesse, capturing the essence of what enlightenment might arguably amount to, within that simply told tale of his, that a child may read and enjoy.

I don't know if you meant what you said quite that way, maybe not; but your words, as you spoke them out in your last few comments, and taken in themselves, did evoke exactly that kind of depth, handled lightly enough, and reminded me of the boatman (and, eventually, Siddhartha himself) towards the end of that tale.

(I suppose that book is in my mind now, because I've just now purchased a fresh copy of the book, to gift to a child, who's very bright for her age, and kind of interested in this sort of thing; and I'm sort of hoping she'll not be bored to tears with it. No, I don't think she will be, although whether it draws her in as much as it did me back when I was around her age give or take, that, let's see.)

[um]

@AR

Before I read your message I had ordered a new book. Now and then I just discard of all my books. Most of the times without regret.

Thank you for referring to a child ...it is a good idea to gave it to some youngsters in the family.

[Appreciative Reader]

Ordered Siddhartha, do you mean, um? That's a cool coincidence! Synchronicity, even, one might say, if one was given to thinking in those terms.

It's good that you're able to discard old books. Me, I'm a complete hoarder. As far as just books, I mean, not other stuff. I've carefully preserved all of not just mine, but books acquired by (and in case of one of them, written by) actually four generations straight.

I realize that ultimately all hoarding is dysfunctional. Even of such innocuous things as books, and relationships, and memories as well, and ultimately of the essence of oneself. But while I'm able to resist the impulse to hoard merely material baubles, but those four, I'm afraid, I'm yet to actually overcome, not even close. Kudos to you, old friend, for having overcome at least one of those attachments.

[um]

@ AR

Yes. I will read it again and see how I digest it now and if it tastes as good as a sip of coffee, I will pass it to one of the youngsters in the family ... to create a dream as the honorable M.L. King said

Personally I am not in favor of "forced detachments" = plucking the apples from the tree when the are not fully ripe. Better to wait for the apples to drop naturally from the tree.

[One last thing..]

We are now being presented, several times a day, with media examples of the effect of extreme violence visited on the captive people of Gaza. The images are heartbreaking. The reality unbearable.

Bodies of Palestinian families strewn like refuse along a road that they had trekked as a path to safety.

A car turns around at a checkpoint in Gaza, its occupants are hit with a shot from behind, from a tank and everything, the car and its occupants, disappear in a puff.

A Palestinian journalist mourns his colleague, who only a half hour earlier, was reporting on air. After work, he went home, a bomb hit, killing him and his 11-member family.

The video of his ruined house shows several children’s party dresses that lie amidst the rubble.

The human family is in the rubble.

An ambulance convoy, filled with injured Gazans, under the supervision of medical authorities, headed to the Rafah border crossing, was struck by the Israeli air force with the stated suspicion that the vehicle, which was headed away from the battle, carried Hamas fighters.

War reduces all nothingness.

It is as if 10,000 Palestinians and more had never existed. But they did, just as the 1,400 Israelis killed on October 7 existed. They had birthdates, names, fragile exchanges of human emotion, of love of family, private moments in everyday life that confirmed their existence. Obliterated. Nothingness.

Whatever media we consume, we see only a fraction of the massive display of inhumanity occurring in Gaza, the reduction of living, breathing, feeling people to objects. This is heartless. This is soulless. This reduces all of existence to the nothingness of smoke, human smoke.

The violence it is calculated. It is rooted in power politics, in racism, in apartheid, in twisted history, opportunism disguised as vengeance, statecraft as slaughter.

We in America, are paying for the extermination of our fellow humans. Our weapons are creating carnage against helpless people. Our aircraft, our ships, our troops have entered the fray, greatly outnumbered.

But we are not helpless. We must demand, now, that our government take a new direction, and soon, not only for a cease fire, but a ceasing of war, the end of arms sales to fuel war, the end of 800 military bases around the world; the end of the theft of our tax dollars for killing; the end of policies that pit people against each other, the end of the destructive psychology justifying violence to maintain “strategic balance,” the end of the false justifications for sending our troops into harm’s way.

It is an unfathomable, beyond the Orwellian, to commit ethnic cleansing and call it defense, to preach democratic values while practicing apartheid, to claim wholesale theft of property a right, to take Palestinians, their homes, kill their children, destroy their family, their culture, their history and deem it the fulfillment of a prophecy ordained by God.

That this genocide is being visited upon the Palestinians by the descendants of those who suffered the utterly condemnable, indelible inhumanity of the Holocaust is incomprehensible. After all, who has suffered more than the Jews during the Holocaust? Entire families wiped out in a racist elimination plan.

The awful killings of innocent Israelis on October 7 and the wave of anti-Jewish sentiment that followed are a powerful reminder of vulnerability of Jews everywhere.

But the destruction of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank brings back greater risks for the survival of Israel itself and all those who dwell within.

Do not assume that it is only the artifacts of the humble, daily lives of Palestinians that lay buried in bomb craters. The America that could be, our own hopes and dreams for a prosperous and secure nation, lie alongside the bodies of the men, women and children in those ruins.

Let us stand for the survival of both Jews and Arabs. Otherwise we are all participants in the massacres that have been and those that are yet to come. The leaders of the world must assert common humanity and enact a cessation of this madness and create a new path, a new map which is fair to all, and establish a new, peaceful coexistence that recognizes the inner equality of all.

We are called to take sides. Let us take the side of peace. Let us take the side of reconciliation. Let us take the side of restoration. Let us take the side of humanity.

Let us all speak out against this descent into madness, into nothingness. And we Americans must demand our government heal our own nation, serve our own people, and use our precious resources to improve the lives of all Americans.

Dennis Kucinich
https://scheerpost.com/2023/11/07/dennis-kucinich-the-nothingness-of-a-war-consciousness/