Israel on verge of becoming a Jewish authoritarian nation

Fairly frequently religious people say that atheists like me overstate the danger of fundamentalism. The argument goes, "What's the harm in religion? Everybody should be free to believe in whatever they want to, whether it be God or whatever."

Well, what's happening in Israel right now is a great example of why fundamentalism is so dangerous. Since Israel was founded after the horror of the Holocaust, there's no problem with the country being largely Jewish.

But right-wing Jewish fundamentalists are determined to go much farther than that.

They want to put the judicial system in Israel under the control of Parliament, which means that there would be no checks on the power of the Prime Minister, which currently is Benjamin Netanyahu -- who is under investigation for several criminal offenses.

A New York Times story, "Netanyahu Scores Another Victory, but at What Price?", describes the role religious fundamentalism is playing in the political turmoil Israel is experiencing.

Once again, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel has pushed the limits, defying a nationwide protest movement to win new curbs on the Israeli judiciary’s power to pose a check to his far-right coalition government.

But after years of brinkmanship and chaos management by the Israeli leader, this feels different. Such is the rancor and rupture caused by this particular Netanyahu victory that many Israelis wonder whether the damage to society might not be fixable — and whether Mr. Netanyahu will be able to manage the aftermath of a showdown he set in motion.

...The passing of the vote, minutes later, provided a rare moment of certainty, after a seven-month period in which it was often unclear, even until Monday afternoon, whether Mr. Netanyahu would really dare to press ahead with his unpopular proposal.

It also took Israel into the unknown.

At home, it left one half of society wondering whether their country — under the control of Mr. Netanyahu’s alliance of religious conservatives and ultranationalists — would now slide slowly into a religious autocracy.

“These could be the last days of Israeli democracy,” said Yuval Noah Harari, an Israeli author and historian of humanity. “We might witness the rise of a Jewish supremacist dictatorship in Israel, which will not just be a terrible thing for Israeli citizens, but also a terrible thing for the Palestinians, for Jewish traditions, and potentially, for the entire Middle East.”

...But to critics and supporters alike, questions remain about the stability and capacity of Israel’s armed forces, after a surge in protests from thousands of military reservists.

There is also the specter of social and economic turmoil, after major unrest broke out overnight in cities across the country, labor leaders warned of a general strike, a doctors’ union announced a daylong reduction in medical services, and high-tech businesses said they were considering moving to more stable economies, according to a new survey.

Abroad, the vote fostered greater ambiguity about the future of Israel’s alliance with the United States, after expressions of growing alarm from the Biden administration. It heightened the unease among American Jews about the trajectory of the Jewish state.

...For Israel’s secular protest movement, it was another blow, but one that many saw as a call to keep fighting. The movement’s seven-month struggle to delay the overhaul, through weekly marches and rallies, has helped re-energize a privileged sector of society that had at times been seen as apathetic or complacent about Israel’s political direction.

“This is some kind of consolation,” said Mira Lapidot, a museum curator and regular protest participant. “There is a sense of needing to decide what kind of life you want to live.”

But underpinning this rejuvenation is also a sense of fear. Mr. Netanyahu’s coalition includes a finance minister who has described himself as a proud homophobe, a security minister who was convicted of racist incitement, and an ultra-Orthodox party that proposed fining women for reading the Torah at the holiest site in Judaism.

For Israel’s Arab minority, which forms roughly one-fifth of the country’s population of nine million, the law feels like the harbinger of a dangerous new era.

Comments

[Appreciative Reader]

It’s seen as both unkind as well as politically incorrect to say this, but I’ve always considered Israel to be an abomination, given how they treat their Arab citizens. What they have there, what they’ve always had there, is an apartheid-like system, and a completely brutal tyranny, as far as the Arab populace.

While the Holocaust was a whole different dimension of evil, that does not compare with anything else; but still, it is such a pity that having gone through that horror should, instead of opening them up to compassion for others, have hardened them instead, and turned them towards cruelty and tyranny. Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return: that kind of sums up Israel, as far as I’m concerned.

(Now I understand the challenges that the Israeli state was subject to, right from the get-go; but still, how they handled it, while it speaks to their resoluteness and strength of character, but again, it is such a pity that these qualities were channeled to tyranny, and to cruelty plain and simple, towards their Muslim/Arab citizens.)

And now, of course, Israel’s about to descend to naked authoritarianism. And no doubt to a hardening of their religious orthodoxy as well, eventually if not immediately --- given that Netanyahu can’t function without the full support of the conservative elements, now that so many there are out protesting these measures. At this rate there’ll be little to choose between Israel and its weirdo neighbors. Which is very very bad news, both in general terms, and particularly in view of Israel’s nukes.

[um]

@ AR

There is no solution for the problems "in" Israel with regard to the Arab population that is acceptable to all.

There is however one solution, one that nobody wants to think of I suppose, and that is...., ALL arabs, ....ALL religious dissenters [ if that is the correct word] ... LEAVE ...israel and go elswhere.

That would save rivers of blood, not only there but all over the world.

The the United liga of Arab Nations has more than ample means to make a succes of this historical migration.

Saudi Arabia and the Emirates instead of squandering their money in meaningless projects of grandeur, were better advised to invest their money in a kind of "Marchall plan" for the arab countries in the middle east as Libanon etc

But who cares ..?!?!?! ...the whole world seems to be EAGERLY waiting for the armageddon.... and their self projted prophesy will for sure make it happen .. allas.

[Appreciative Reader]

All Arabs leave Israel? Why would they? Why on earth would they?

That's EXACTLY like saying, a hundred years ago: All jews should leave Germany. They do that, and problem solved.

That's ...victim blaming, isn't it? If not quite "blaming", it is making the victim responsible for the tyranny. When it is squarely the tyrant that is responsible for the tyranny.

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It is Hitler alone, and the Nazis alone, that bear the WHOLE brunt of the blame, and the guilt, of the evil they have perpetrated on the jews.

And equally, it is Israel that bears the WHOLE brunt of the blame, and the guit, of the evil that they have, in turn, perpetrated on the Arabs.

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In any case, should they elect to do as you advise, purely as a matter of pragmatism. Where will they go? Back before the worst of the Holocaust, had all jews elected to leave Germany, where would they have gone? Leaving their own home, who would take them in, back then? No one! Today if the Arabs/Palestinians elect to leave Israel, where will they go, all these people, leaving their home? They have nowhere to go!

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um, I find the very concept of Israel evil. Here's why:

Let's say I find a bunch of homeless destitute starving folks. And I decide to rehabilitate them, give them a home, give them food and shelter. All good, all very compassionate, right? But then, instead of taking them into my home, what I do is I take a whole bunch of them, and, without asking for your permission, and against your wishes, I turn your home over to them. Now these once-destitutes live in your home, and use all your resources, all your food, all your money. And you are forced to live with your family in a tiny gardener's outhouse, and even there subjected to abuse and violence and injustice. Despite the original good intention, what is all of that if not evil?

But then, despite all of that, had the Israelis firmly repulsed all attacks, but never crossed the line from defense to offense, and had they treated their Arab citizens with compassion and as fellow-citizens, with full rights, as indeed every civilized country does. There may still have been strife, there may still have been conflict; but not this abject horror, surely, this complete injustice?

[um]

@ AR

BROTHER .. please do understand ... they should be INVITED to come, and their migration should be payed by the world and/or there fellow tribes men and religious believers.

THEM, all those that are not wanted in the state of Israel, should be OFFERED an place of "milk and honey" ....

I am not interested in how it all came to be and who ius to blame or not.

What I propose seems to me the only way to break a curse.

[um]

@AR

We are all human beings and we do live in groups and for any group to flourish and to benefit any individual all have to share the same values, the same world view.

It is an mental problem AR, that cannot be solved in a normal way.

Finally they have come to understand that indigenous people cannot live together with those that occupied their territories long ago, carrying with them total different view of the world.

The only solution is NOT to be found in sharing responsibility in the SAME territory but living side by side, each in his own world, in his own territory and for that to happen these groups should be GIVEN a place to live where they CAN live and have a future.

There is no future in Israel for the arabs. .. if the Israelis are not willing or able to created that future for them whole heartedly .. OTHERS should do so ... and THEY CAN if they would like.

[Appreciative Reader]

I don't get it. If someone must necessarily leave, why not the Israelis? As you propose, let the whole world pay for it, and let the whole world invite them in.

There are three possible solutions to the crisis in Israel. (I don't mean Netanyahu's dictatorial tendencies and ambitions, I mean the Palestine issue.)

First: Let all the Israelis get the hell out of there, and leave the country to the Palestinians.

Or, two: Let all the Arabs get the hell out of there, as you suggest.

Or, three: And this is the civilized, and practicable, answer: They're both there, one group for many centuries, the other for one century certainly. So let them live in peace, with equal rights. And since Israel doesn't seem inclined to do this civilized thing themselves, apply sanctions on them till they do, exactly like South Africa.

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I've no idea why on earth you're demanding that the Arabs move out of there. It's their home, um! It's been their home for far longer than the Israelis. Just because the Israelis have gone all tyrannical on them, why're you asking them to leave? That's like saying, Russia's attacked, so let all Ukrainians leave the country and go away, and leave everything to the Russians; or at the very least, simply surrender to the Russians.

Look, I've no dog in the race myself, right? But simply in terms of fairness, it is the Russians who are in the wrong, it was Nazi Germany that was in the wrong on the Jewish question, and on the Palestinian issue it is the Israelis who are in the wrong.

[um]

@ AR

You are looking at the issue as an participant of sorts.
Until now that point of view has not brought a solution and there is no reason their will be in the near future.

I the past I wrote about what I call the small road, in dealing with "enemies". People go on to think that it has to do with justifying the evil doer and the evil itself. I cannot say it clear enough, it has nothing to do with either.

Just have a look in history books and you will soon understand that your number 1 option can not work as it has never worked.

In my mind it is simple .. The amis cannot live in a secular american environment ... just as an example. The same holds for many indegenous peoples that would love to live their own live in their own way.

The settlers and the religious orthodoxy in israel will never be able to integrate into secular society and live in peace with those they cannot consider as their own.

I did not say, nor suggested "let the arbs get the hell out of here". What I point out has nothing to to with favoring the Israeli's nothing at all.... i am not interested in their fate they can look after it themselves.

The world has created a place for those that fled from Europe now let the world do so for the arabs and all others that are not seen as equal humanbeings.

The arab world can OFFER them a place to stay,

If they had the courage it would be an act of love for the whole world.

[Appreciative Reader]

The world has created a place for those that fled from Europe now let the world do so for the arabs and all others that are not seen as equal humanbeings.

The arab world can OFFER them a place to stay,

If they had the courage it would be an act of love for the whole world.

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..........But why not the other way around? Is what I am asking, um. Europe can do for Israelis what you are proposing the Arab world do for the Palestinians. This has greater justification, far greater --- because it is Europe that foisted the Israelis on to the Palestinians in the first place.

Seriously, what's wrong with this solution? You're asking the Arab world to invite the Palestinians into their lands, right? So instead of that, why shouldn't Europe invite all the Israelis into their lands, each and every one of them? That's as good a solution, surely?

Me, I think mass exodus of one people from the land, that's ...barbaric, uncivilized. Just do to Israel what the world did to South Africa. The South Africans were a bunch of assholes, who did not have a decent civilized bone in their body. So external sanctions, coupled with unrest within their lands, compelled them to do the decent thing, that they would not do on their own.

Likewise, the assholes in Israel are unwilling to do the decent thing. So impose sanctions on them. Israel has far less resources than South Africa. Stop all aid to Israel, stop all trade with them, freeze all their financial assets, declare every Israeli persona non grata in the whole Western world. Israel will be far more vulnerable to international pressure and sanctions, than resource-rich South Africa ever was.

[um]

@ AR

I gave my 2 cents .... and as I am not in a position of political power ...and not direct part of the problem ... I better refrain from, going into details.

With some coffee and leaving your personal opinions aside for half an hour, I am sure you will figure out what there is to see on "the moon" I pointed at.

Just seek behind the word .. ask yourself why did he write these things as he knows what I know ...succes.

[Appreciative Reader]

Heh, I see your finger, and I see your moon, um. What I don't understand, is why you insist on closing your eyes to my finger, and refuse to see the sun that I'm pointing at.

What you're suggesting is bartering for peace by giving way to the tyrant. Buying peace by appeasing the forces of evil. It is like Ukraine bartering for peace, by kneeling down before Putin. It is like the Jews bartering for peace with the Nazis, before the Final Solution was put into effect, by leaving Germany en masse. It is like the blacks in South Africa bartering for peace by agreeing to live in apartheid.

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Rather than your "moon", of the Palestinians leaving their home in Israel, and settling in other Arab countries; rather than that, I point to the "sun", of the Israelis leaving their colony in Israel, and settling in different European countries.

---

But neither your idea, of the Arabs leaving Israel, and nor the idea I suggest in return, of the Arabs leaving Palestine, is a good idea. Both are terrible ideas. They reek of genocide, or at least of geno-something-even-if-not-quite-"cide".

Rather than that, why should both not live in peace together? If they won't do that of their own accord, then force them at ...not gunpoint, but sanctionpoint!

(Of course, there's two things that makes this situation even more fucked up. First, the nukes. And second, religion. Crazy orthodox jew rabbi types on the one hand, and psycho Islamic mullah types on the other.)

(But really, it's a huge pity, that Israel isn't able to shake itself out of this nonsense. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it, even if this doesn't sound politically correct. Jews are by far the best educated folks in the world, the most enlightened, on a percentage basis. Look at the number of Nobel Laureates they've produced. By far the majority of them are atheists, and "cultural observants" of Judaism, if that. Unlike the Islamists, who are probably the most regressive populace at this point in time. Therefore, one would have expected far better things from the Israelis, one would have expected them to throw out the crazy religious types. Alas, that hasn't happened, and the religious nutjobs continue to hold sway there, and now Netanyahu marches in to pull a Hitler on them. That geography is on the way to getting seriously fucked up now.)

[um]

@ AR

In what YOU write, are the very psychological, social and cultural reasons to be found why it is impossible for them to live in peace.

Just ponder your own words and the consequences AR

Again it is all fodder for Psychologists.

[um]

@AR

Look what is to be seen on the moon:
Have this page translated in your own language:
https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/5398090/principiele-wanbetaler-autonoom-soeverein-deurwaarder-schulden

I put it here not for what there is at hand but about the state of mind of people that think autonomous. It is a growing group in europe and all over the world.

If you have taken notice of that "mentality" that is pointed at in that article , turn your gaze again to israel. ... you will understand what I mean and that it is almost impostible to live together with these people.

[Appreciative Reader]

Nah, couldn't translate. The menu etc had choices, for language. But not the text itself. Maybe you could just paraphrase?

But um, regardless, I find your ideas frankly weird. Whatever psychological point is served by having the Palestinians relocated into Saudi Arabia, etc, can surely be served, equally well, by having the Israelis relocate to Europe? What is your objection to following your idea to that conclusion instead of the one you suggest?

Are you agreeable with having Israelis relocated to different countries of Europe? If not, why not, considering you egregiously suggest the same for the Palestinians?

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And another thing you don't address is this. Your idea tantamounts to ethnic cleansing of the land. Instead, why shouldn't both live in peace there? Why shouldn't Israel be forced, through international pressure and sanctions a la South Africa, to do just that? Why are you going out of your way to support the tyrannical ideas and policies of Israel?

(Again, I say this as someone with no dog in the race. Speaking up for fairness, speaking up against tyranny, is all. You are, inexplicably, supporting the tyrants, and demanding eviction and ethnic cleansing of the victims! Why would you do that?!)

[um]

@ AR

'Autonomes' listen to nothing or no one – and then the bailiff shows up on the doorstep

They make the strange request to the tax authorities to refund their 'birth millions', refuse to pay taxes and intimidate bailiffs who come to seize their belongings because of outstanding bills. They are Dutch people who call themselves 'autonomous' or 'sovereign'. At least 8600 of these people are now known to the Tax and Customs Administration. The danger of high debts is lurking with them.

Living in freedom according to your own rules, that is the ultimate goal of autonomous people. They believe they don't have to meet financial obligations that they never agreed to, such as paying taxes or a traffic ticket.

Some go one step further and declare their house an embassy and think that the government has nothing to say about them.
'I don't have to take anything from you'
How does that work out in practice? A video is circulating on Twitter showing the struggle of a bailiff. He totally fails to make it clear to a defaulter on principle that he is going to confiscate her car because she owes Ziggo a debt and the court has ruled. Her response:

"This pass is not valid, so I don't have to answer this."

"You are trespassing on my property."

'You work in your own name, you know that very well.'

'We don't have a contract together so I don't have to take anything from you, that's how it works.'

In the end, the bailiff leaves again, after announcing that he will call the police.

xnxnxnxnxnxnxnx .... it goes on much longer but this much will do

AR ....There is a growing number of these groups in different European countries and they also have become an concern even for national security services in Germany and Austria.

When I read it i was reminded of the interviews with settlers in Israel. They all have the same mentality AR as those that stormed your Capitol ... they are not willing to accept any rule frome anybody.

Now turn your gaze to Israel and it should be no problem to see that there are MANY groups there that have that mentality in not accepting a given rule.

It make no sense to engage with them using the normal tools for engagement as developed in democracies. ... they give a s..t about what you think and say. Finds yourself something to read about deprogramming people that were in a sect and you will understand what I mean.

That being the case all "normal" solutions are excluded.

Again it has nothing to do with the issue as it is seen from the outside it is all "Human mentality" ....fodder for psychologist.

[um]

@AR
>> But um, regardless, I find your ideas frankly weird. Whatever psychological point is served by having the Palestinians relocated into Saudi Arabia, etc, can surely be served, equally well, by having the Israelis relocate to Europe? What is your objection to following your idea to that conclusion instead of the one you suggest?<<

This is a "YES< but ... reaction"
They were not allowed in my family.
There has been a possible solution offered, and all are free to take it or leave it.
Why creating a new problem?

If our dad would give something to one of his children, the response "why him/her and not me" would not arise in anybodies mind let alone express it aloud.

AR for decades by now nobody has found a solution that is acceptable to all; they all are fighting for THEIR solution.

If you translate or attribute the meaning and value to this "solution" in terms of etnicc cleansing ,etc. etc then it has already lost its power to solve a problem and it becomes "weird"

[um]

@ AR

At the core of the 3 Abrahamic religions, is the conviction that people have to live under divine rule, so they all strive to a theocratic form of government.

It should be clear that it is impossible that the 3 different versions of theocracy cannot live in one house..

As long as the adherents of all these three religions think that religion is not a personal, private affair but an public affair, they cannot live together without strive for dominance.

Just delve in history books to see how that worked out in different places of the world in other times..

[Ron E.]

I guess it’s again all really about power – Netanyahu particularly and some of his government. It seems a world-wide trend of late that people get elected to positions of power and then manipulate the system in an attempt to keep them there – Trump, Johnson, Putin, Jinping – and dozens of leaders that can be classed as dictators.

Netanyahu is attempting to make himself immune to being prosecuted for his alleged criminal offences by devolving judicial power to himself. Same as Trump where he put people on the Supreme Court and other positions of influence – no doubt believing they would support him when the occasion arose.

These leaders often display extreme narcissistic behaviour – classically lashing out at people and institutions that criticise them, even if such people were initially favoured. Perhaps to them, religion (and nationalism) is merely a means to an end – and a powerful ally.

And we are putting them there!

[Appreciative Reader]

“@ AR

At the core of the 3 Abrahamic religions, is the conviction that people have to live under divine rule, so they all strive to a theocratic form of government.

It should be clear that it is impossible that the 3 different versions of theocracy cannot live in one house..

As long as the adherents of all these three religions think that religion is not a personal, private affair but an public affair, they cannot live together without strive for dominance.”

……….Agreed, um. Agreed, that is indeed one of their key disagreements. The geopolitics thing, that, and this religion thing as well. And agreed, the religion thing makes it that much more difficult for them to coexist peacefully. …But still, the objections I voiced do encompass this issue.

Sure, there’s lots of complete a-hole theocracies out there. Saudi Arabia, for one. Oman as well --- in fact, that’s a place I’ve been to, for a while, and seen close up; and I agree, people of other religions exist there on sufferance as it were. And that is exactly what Israel is trying to replicate, apparently.

But you know what? There’s a difference. Israel was set up in the first place by the Allies. All respect to its wonderful people, for having fashioned an oasis of civilization in the midst of that medieval wilderness, absolutely --- but they’ve been able to do that only because they’ve been helped at every stage by other nations, not least the US. Unlike the Muslim theocracies, Israel is beholden to these countries for its very existence.

Another important difference is, while the crazy Muslim theocracies are hellholes, absolutely --- but they’ve evolved organically, it’s *their* hellhole. While Israel is a transplant. It is a people forced on to another existing populace.

Given the above, do you see the complete and especial unfairness of how Israel is treating its minorities? It is completely unconscionable that Europe, and particularly the US, should enable it do that. (Maybe this dictatorship nonsense of Netanyahu’s will be the last straw, and maybe the US will stop doing that. Although, given realpolitik, who knows?)

What you’re proposing, that the Palestine meekly turn tail and leave their home, to become refugees in another land, that’s …completely insupportable! That’s bending the knee to Israel’s bullying. (That’s why I suggested that counter-proposal, that Israelis should be relocated to European countries, to highlight the sheer …horror, of such a suggestion. I didn’t really mean it as a serious proposal. But if you’re going to seriously consider relocating the Palestinians, then there’s no reason not to consider relocating the Israelis, right?)

By the way, you didn’t seem to like the term, “ethnic cleansing”! But those proposals, yours, as well as mine, are exactly that. Like, literally ethnic cleansing. Quite literally removing from the country people belonging to one particular ethnicity.

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The way out is simple enough, should there be the political will for it. If the US and Europe, to whom Israel is beholden for its existence, and without whose support it can’t carry on the way South Africa did for quite a while, were to demand of Israel that it give equal rights to its minorities, and if it were threatened with stoppage of support, and indeed of sanctions as well, if it did not comply; then, well, while there are plenty of ifs and buts there, I realize, but certainly one very probable outcome would be that they’d eventually comply.

So far realpolitik prevented such a thing happening. But who knows, maybe Netanyahu’s latest misadventure, the hardening of authoritarian power there, might tilt the scales, just maybe. Thankfully a sane government is at the helm in the US, and not that morally bankrupt fool of an orange horror. And not to forget the outpouring of outrage within Israel itself --- it is not inconceivable that if the people managed to oust this would-be dictator, then the reforms might spill over to include the Palestinians as well, as in any humane scheme of things it should.

This may not happen. Netanyahu may yet get away with what he’s planning. Or even if he doesn’t, the Palestinians’ lot may still not change. But who knows, just maybe, a saner government may emerge there?

(Think of Ukraine. Ukrainians are supremely brave and resolute, and all respect for how they’ve managed to stand up to Russia. But they’d simply not have been able to do that without NATO support. As such, they are beholden to NATO; and therefore, should they suddenly turn rogue and start doing to a section of its citizens what Israel does to Palestinians, then I’d imagine Europe and the US would have a thing or two to say about it, even as everyone holds their tongue about Oman and Saudi. Likewise Israel as well, I guess?)

In any case, there’s no doubt that the only FAIR outcome is that Israel should give equal rights to Palestinians. They can still maintain a theocracy, they’re such a huge majority that they can easily do that democratically. (Although again, and like I said --- and again, going out on a not very politically correct limb here --- unlike the Muslims, the Jews are such a wonderful people, so very well educated, so very civilized, and so many of them free of these absurd religious superstitions, that I wonder why they don’t all get together and shake off this regressive theocracy they’ve got going there, and install a regular normal sane secular democracy there, now after all these years, now that the horror of the Holocaust is well behind them, and there’s been enough space for perspective.)

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Heh, sorry, um, long comment! I’ve been going on and on about this, haven’t I? I’m no expert on these geopolitical what-have-yous, and this was just me thinking aloud, is all. And I’ll stop beating this beast, after this comment of mine!

It’s just, what you suggested, um, it’s so very unfair, that craven bending of the knee to tyranny, and so completely one-sided, that I found myself disagreeing vehemently with that suggestion, is all --- even though, and like I said, personally I’ve no dog in that race.

[um]

@ AR

If one spends much time "inside the house", not only does the center of town looks different but one develops also "weird" ideas on what is going on in the public domain.

It was not wise to mingle in their affairs .. I am better advised to stay at home, gaze outside and drink some coffee.

[Appreciative Reader]

Dear um, not at all! Who is to say my ideas might not be weird, and yours turn out completely sound? None of us is infallible in what we think and do!

All we can do is present our thoughts, and examine them the best we can, and then, basis that examination, assess them as best we can, right? That's kind of the point of this whole thing, is what I think --- see what others think about things that interest us, and through examination try to arrive at ideas and opinions and, enlarging that, POVs and worldviews, that are the likeliest to be aligned with facts.

Geopolitics isn't something we get into much over here, heh! That too the geopolitics of a region so far removed from us all.

If you'll pardon my pointing this out, um: You're staying away from actually addressing the points I discuss. I've squarely addressed the points you've raised. But when it comes to addressing my points, you refer first to your childhood home, and now to being prone to making errors in thinking and so not attempting at all.

Pardon me, old friend, please don't be hurt by my saying this! I may well be completely mistaken in my views! I'm only a casually interested layman, and a casually informed one; and in any case no one is infallible, not even actual experts on this subject.

But how will we know who is right, whether I, or you, or some expert, or maybe all of us, or maybe none of us? The best we can do is try to assess one another's ideas, and reasons, as thoroughly as we can, and as best we can. Always with the humility, the realization, that our assessment itself isn't infallible.

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Do my ideas make sense to you? The reasons I've put forward, and the conclusions I draw from them? To me it seems clear, basis the reasons I proffered, that the only reasonable way out, is equitable coexistence. If that is completely impossible, given the narrow closed minded religious convictions of both the Israelis and the Palestinians, then what seems reasonable is to carve up the land, and divide it into two separate countries ---- not that one section of the populace takes all of it, and the other compelled to seek refuge elsewhere.

I quoted Auden upthread. Those who have evil done to them, themselves do evil in turn. That's what the Israelis are doing. Just like they had to leave their lands in dim history, just like they had to live on sufferance in others' lands, persecuted for their religion and their culture, and finally compelled on pain of death to leave, either that or die: that is exactly what they, in turn, are doing to the Palestinians.

True, the Palestinians aren't very pretty themselves! Blinded by religious superstitions, violent ideas stemming from their barbarous religious beliefs, and generally not the kind of neighbors anyone might want! But what to do, they are there already. And they were there first. (If you discount 3000 year old ancient half-history-half-fiction-half-myth. I mean, three MILLENIA ago! Even if true, who cares? If some strain of populace turned up at your door, and claimed that 3000 years ago their ancestors owned your land, would you quietly give your property over to them? It's so silly, that claim.)

Either peaceful equitable coexistence, no matter how tricky; else carve up the land. There is no other option that is remotely fair. Not so far as I can see.

Again, I may be completely mistaken in everything I've thought. But the only way to assess that, is if you'd squarely examine my thoughts, and yours as well, um, right? The full content of it?

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Sorry, um, yet another long comment! Please don't withdraw, at least not merely because we disagree. Disagreement, if addressed and examined squarely and constructively, is what makes for growth in our thinking.

Don't worry about what your father would have said. Don't worry about whether you might be wrong. Just squarely address the ideas themselves, the content of it. That way, maybe we might think our way together, you and I, better than either of us might have done by ourselves, right?

Cheers, old friend. *Raises mug half full of the drink of the Gods*

[um]

@ AR

It is not because of You AR, it has to do with what is going on inside myself

If I would not have woken up in the cinema, I might have used this site as reference for this conversation:
https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

[Practical]

Ben Netti-pot is beholden to the masters that have given him power. SAD.