Another strange use of force at a RSSB meeting

Below you can read a message I got a few days ago from someone who attended a Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) meeting in the United Kingdom where volunteers dragged out a questioner in the presence of the RSSB guru.

I was asked what I thought about what happened, along with some more general questions, and to share the message and my response on this blog. Glad to oblige. My comments are in bold, interspersed with the message.

Naturally I thought about another example in 2019 of heavy-handed RSSB sevadars/volunteers at a center in England that Osho Robbins described in several posts, here and here. 

Dear Brian,

In the UK, Coventry has just opened their new RSSB centre. Baba Ji [Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the RSSB guru] came on Sunday 16 July for a Q&A session. Before he arrived, there was some argument about someone wanting to ask a question after the tokens had all finished. After a while, several heavy handed sevadars [volunteers] were dragging him, and forcefully removing him from the hall. Everyone saw it because he was crying and telling them to stop.

Sure doesn't sound like a loving or spiritual thing to do.

The noise attracted the attention of everyone. I have never seen anything like this before, so I thought it was a bit strange. I have seen your website before but have never commented. I just wanted to inform you in case it was of interest and maybe someone else who was there might know more about what happened.

I'm always interested in news of this sort about RSSB goings-on. It shocks me when I hear of force being used in a RSSB meeting. I was initiated in 1971 by Charan Singh, the guru who preceded Gurinder Singh, and nothing of this sort ever came to light while Charan Singh was in charge of RSSB. He died in 1990, then Gurinder Singh took his place as guru.

The incident happened in front of a hall full of satsangis [RSSB initiates] and not a single person helped or seemed concerned. I found the incident rather disturbing. I thought violence was against the principles of sant mat [the philosophy of RSSB] but clearly over a thousand followers must have thought otherwise. I just hope the person was not too upset or hurt. I am confused.

It's good that you're confused. This shows that you have the natural human desire to see other people treated fairly and respectfully, even if they might be breaking some rule or law. Yes, violence is indeed against the principles of Sant Mat, at least when it isn't justified to prevent some harm that is worse than the use of force. In this case, violence against the man wasn't justified.

Is this normal? I am not initiated as I am too young, but my parents are and they want me to get initiated once I am old enough to apply. I asked them about it later, and they told me not to worry because the sevadars know what they are doing and they said they were acting in the hukam [divine order] of Baba Ji.

I'm sure your parents are sincere in their love and devotion for the teachings of RSSB and the guru. I used to believe as they did. Now I don't. No guru is perfect. Not Gurinder Singh, not any other guru. So their orders aren't perfect either. The orders have to be questioned when they don't make sense or, as in this case, harm other people. Sevadars/volunteers also aren't perfect. Their egos swell when they get to perform some service in the presence of the guru, sometimes acting like jerks. This was one of those times.

You can write this on your church of the churchless website and I will let you know if I find out anything else. My parents don’t know I have written this, and I would never tell them, but I don’t think it was right. I don’t know what they mean by hukam, but it seems like using this type of force is accepted by the Baba Ji. Can you explain this to me because you were once a follower too?

Well, all I can say is that people can act badly when they're under the sway of a charismatic leader. Hitler, Donald Trump, Putin, there's lots of examples of otherwise decent people acting indecently when a belief system or inordinate devotion to a leader infects their brains. RSSB is adept at making initiates feel special. After all, they've supposedly been chosen by God to return to God via a Perfect Living Master, with Gurinder Singh being considered one.

It's like there's a magical force field in the mind of true believers that causes life to be viewed through the prism of the RSSB teachings and the utterances of the RSSB guru. Normal standards of right and wrong no longer apply within that force field. Whatever the guru commands, that is "right." No questions asked. As Gurinder Singh used to say, and perhaps still does, "It's my way or the highway."

So many people were there I am sure someone will know more.

Send me another message if you learn more.

I know you have written several books for RSSB, one being “Life is fair.” You must know a lot more than most people about RSSB, because who else has written a book? Did you ever do this type of seva and use force on the followers when you was a sevadar?

Writing books for RSSB just means that I wrote books for RSSB. It doesn't mean I'm special in any other way. I did learn a lot about RSSB in the process, which helps explain why I ended up leaving RSSB. After Gurinder Singh became guru, I did do other sorts of volunteer work in addition to book writing, including "security seva" due to my learning karate.  

I never used force on anyone, but I observed it once, as described in a 2013 blog post. Here's an excerpt.

Some people love being part of a military-like chain of command. I understand the appeal. I’ve been a committed religious soldier myself. However, now I look back on my jump and ask “how high” on the way up days with more than a little embarrassment.

One example: I used to be an enthusiastic Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) “sevadar” (volunteer). After I started learning Shotokan karate, I got to be a security sevadar during the guru’s occasional visits to the United States and Canada.

Now, there’s nothing wrong with security. Except when it’s overzealous. During a visit Master Gurinder Singh made to Honolulu I was standing outside the auditorium when the guru’s entourage strode by.

Gurinder Singh walked past me and toward the building where he was to speak. He stopped and turned around about thirty yards away, looking and waving his hands in a “no, no” gesture toward my general direction.

The reason? A man near me had pulled out his camera and was taking photographs of the guru. From a good distance—not at all a paparazzi sort of intrusion. But RSSB initiates were under firm orders not to photograph Gurinder Singh or record his words.

However, this guy was in a public place. And we had no way of knowing if he was a member of RSSB. Plus, even if he was, what right did we have to stop him from taking a photo of the guru?

Such considerations didn’t enter the mind of the aggressive security sevadars around me (myself, I had no inclination to confront the man). They yelled “Stop!” He looked confused. “You can’t take photographs of the master,” he was told.

It was a unpleasant scene, especially considering this was supposed to be a weekend of spiritual love. I can’t recall all of the details of the encounter. I’m pretty sure the man got talked into taking the film out of his camera and handing it over.

I do know that I’ve seen a similar scene in movies, like when a Mafia boss is photographed in a compromising situation and his goons rough up the camera man.

What’s most disturbing to me now is how little I was disturbed at the time. Like everyone else around me, I assumed that obedience to the guru trumped respect for non-sectarian niceties like the First Amendment. After all, the guru was considered to be God in human form, and it isn’t a good idea to disobey God.

In short, I was enmeshed in a cultish way of thinking back then. Heck, I may still be, but at least now I’m a devotee of the Cult of Me—which has a much more flexible code of conduct. Scanning these “Warning signs of dysfunctional cults,” I see quite a few that apply to RSSB.

If life is fair, was what I saw also fair? Does this not create karma for the sevadars? Also, the person who wanted to ask a question, does he also create karma? After death, do we have to account for all these actions, like my parents always tell me?

No. No. No. No. Because I no longer believe in karma as it is commonly understood. I do believe in causes and effects, but that's different from karma that supposedly carries over from life to life -- since I also no longer believe in reincarnation or life after death.

My parents tell me that after death, Baba Ji will save me from bad karmas if I get initiated, but in one of the questions, he said that “God comes for every soul, regardless of whether they are a satsangi but we might not recognise God.” It doesn’t make any sense to me, and I asked my mum but she was not able to explain it. Do you know what this means?

I'm not the best person to ask, since I don't believe in God.

Also one more thing. Can you explain to me what is "Sach Khand?" I am told it is a spiritual realm where all the satsangis will go after death, but I don't see the point of going there and Baba Ji never says anything about this subject. 

 

You're right. It's a spiritual realm. But traditionally the RSSB teachings say it can take as many as four lifetimes to reach Sach Khand. It's good to hear that Gurinder Singh doesn't say anything about Sach Khand, since almost certainly it is a fantasy. 

 

Please post this on your website, and post your answers too. Thank you.

 

And thank you for your message and thoughtful questions.

A Seeker

Comments

[A Seeker]

Thank you for writing this and your reply to me.

I am again confused. You say there is no karma. The book Life is Fair explains karma, but you are now saying there is no karma. I have been told that karma is a fact and I have never questioned it.

If there is no karma, then the people who do bad things will never have to account for it. It makes no sense to me. Then where is the justice?

If there is no life after death, then what happens to my soul after it leaves my body? I thought the meditation was all about leaving the body and going to Sach Khand while living.

I have also been told that many people have done this so it is a fact and many people meet Baba Ji just before they die, and he comes to take their soul. I also know that he says God will come for everyone not just RSSB followers.

What am I missing? How can there be no reincarnation? then what happens to my soul after death?

I thought this was all a fact, not a matter of belief and that many people have gone to Sach Khand in their meditation. Are you saying this is not true?

I was told Baba Ji lives in Sach Khand all the time and he knows everything and has all the answers.

Other religions are beliefs, but RSSB books and Dr Johnson in Path of the Masters said that this RSSB is the real truth and that meditation gives the proof when you leave the body.

From the questions it doesn't seem like many people get there and these incidents create doubt for me because the people following for such a long time should be advanced souls and not treating people badly like what I witnessed.

I thought the sevadars were good people who were serving and helping others. Surely karmas are created when such actions are taken against people who are just trying to ask a question.

I think if I wanted to ask a question, and this happened to me, I would fight back. Does Baba Ji really accept this as normal? This incident and what the sevadars did have made me question the whole of RSSB.

I have a lot of investigation to do. Something is not right.

[SantMat6]

More of Church of the Churchless' yellow journalism.

Though I'm a critic of some organized religions, I fully support the right of any religion to hold its services as they like, to whom they like, and by all means, to remove people who disrupt the services. I do not have the right to "act up" at such venues.

For example, there are several things I don't like about the Catholic church. But I do not have the right to go to Mass and make demands, such as the priest answer my questions. And the church itself isn't under any obligation to stop its activities and grant my demand because I start crying.

There are also several things I don't like about certain Sant Mat groups. But I hardly feel I have the right to attend a Rajinder Singh function and throw a fit.

A satsang is not my party, and I can't cry there if I want to.

"Oh, that doesn't sound like a loving thing to do." Give me a break.

This is the same guy who wrote many essays about how the schools in his area had been taken over by "white supremacy" because of the presence of security officers on the school's premises. Tearful testimony by Salem students was apparently all the proof he needed. And yes, their tears won the day. And so, these security officers were removed from the schools. Hooray, a victory for progressivism and a defeat for white authoritarianism!

Oh whoops! Look what happened:
https://www.koin.com/news/education/salem-keizer-survey-students-staff-attacks-skea-recommendations-03062023/

Tiresome progressives. They live in their exclusive white neighborhoods and preach what should be done to help the downtrodden. All their advice turns out to be hypocritical crap.

[umami]

"Though I'm a critic of some organized religions"

SM69,

That's unexpected. Don't they all teach morality? Which ones and why?

[Appreciative Reader]

LOL, Hilarious, umami. You're ...wicked!

[umami]

AR,
Just doing the Lord's work ...like you!

[Brian Hines]

A Seeker, you have to find your own way when it comes to spirituality, as in other aspects of life, really. Sure, we all can benefit from the experience of others, but in the end each of us treads our own path in life. We neither can nor should follow in someone else's footsteps.

You appear to believe in an eternal soul. OK, that's a comforting thought. I used to believe that I had, or was, a soul also. I'd simply ask you to consider where the evidence for soul is. Or the evidence for reincarnation. Sure, there are lots of words spent in holy books and holy talks about soul and reincarnation, including in the RSSB literature, but where is the actual convincing evidence?

For me it comes down to a choice between seeking what is comfortable or what is true. I talked about this in one of my first posts for this blog. Here's a link to the post along with an excerpt.
https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/basics_of_our_faithless_faith/
---------------------------------------------------
Here's how to tell the difference between true faith and false faith: Imagine that you are standing in the middle of a bare windowless room. Two doors lead out of the room. Both are closed, but can be opened with a turn of the doorknob. The doors are marked with signs that describe what awaits on the other side: (A) Reality, (B) Belief

After you open a door, you have to walk through it. The door then will shut and you never will be able to leave the place you have entered. Choose Reality and you will know things as they really are, from top to bottom of the cosmos. You will know whether or not God exists and, if so, the nature of this ultimate divinity. You will know whether death is the final end of your existence or if it is the beginning of another form of life. You will know whether there is a meaning to the universe beyond what human beings ascribe to it.

Or, choose Belief and you will know only what lies within the confines of your current suppositions about the nature of the cosmos. For the rest of your life you will be confident that what you believe to be true, really is. Any evidence to the contrary will not make an impact on your mind. You will remain doubt-free, faithful to the beliefs you now hold about God, creation, life, death, and the purpose of human existence.

Which door would you choose to walk through?

Before answering, consider carefully the potential ramifications of your choice. Reality is an unknown, a mystery. It could be frightening or fabulous, painful or pleasurable, warmly loving or coldly uncaring. Do you want to embrace absolutely real reality? Or would you rather hold on to your beliefs about what is real?

Someone with the type of faith extolled by the Church of the Churchless would unhesitatingly choose Door A and boldly stride into Reality. For their faith is not in anything particular, but is a faith that truth can be known, should be known, and, indeed, must be known.

[um]

Nisargadatta:
You are like a child that says:
Prove that the sugar is sweet then only I shall have it.

The proof of the sweetness is in the mouth not in the sugar. To know it is sweet, you must taste it, there is no other way.

Of course, you begin by asking: Is it sugar? Is it sweet? and you accept my assurance
until you taste it. Then only all doubts dissolve and your knowledge becomes first hand and unshakable. I do not ask you to believe me. Just trust me enough to begin with.
Every step proves or disproves itself.

You seem to want the proof of truth to precede truth.

And what will be the proof of the proof?

You see, you are falling into a regress. To cut it you must put a stop to asking for
proofs and accept, for a moment only, something as true. It does not really matter what it is. It may be God, or me, or your own self. In each case you accept something, or somebody, unknown as true.

Now, if you act on the truth you have accepted, even for a moment, very soon you will be brought to the next step. It is like climbing a tree in the dark -- you can get hold of the next branch only when you are perched on the previous one. In science it is called the experimental approach.

To prove a theory you carry out an experiment according to the operational instructions, left by those who have made the experiment before you.

In spiritual search the chain of experiments one has to make is called Yoga.

[A Seeker]

I want to know the truth, but I thought I already had the truth. From the books i had read, RSSB was the only truth and I thought all other religions were wrong. That was what Doctor Johnson concluded.

I was always told that by meditation I will be able to know the truth because my soul will be taken by the guru to the spiritual realms and then Sach Khand.

Brian, you tried all this and now you say there is no karma, no soul, no reincarnation.

That means, if it is true, that RSSB is just the same as any other religion.

if there is no soul, karma reincarnation then what is the purpose of my life? Why am I here?

I want truth, but I thought it was just a matter of meditation then I will know for myself.

So the experiences that followers of RSSB have, is that all delusion?

[Brian Hines]

A Seeker, I don't know for sure that there's no God, soul, reincarnation, or any other supernatural entity. All I said is that there's no convincing evidence for these entities. I'd love it if they were real. I'd rather live on after death than be dead and gone forever. But I've concluded that I'd rather live as truthfully as possible now, rather than believe in what currently seem to me to be fantasies. If they're actually true, great. I'll learn that after I die, maybe.

[A Seeker]

if RSSB is just another religion, then my parents have wasted their life. They go do seva all the time. All the people asking questions are mistaken if Baba Ji is not really a true guru.

That means he is lying to the world. I thought that would be bad karma, but if there is no karma, then it doesn't matter if he is fake and lying.

I can't seem to accept there is no karma because then I can do anything bad like steal, or what some people say Baba Ji did, and there is no karma to pay. Maybe he knows that, which is why he did it. If there is karma then he would not do it

[No Kool-Aid]

A Seeker: Brian Hines is not an authority on the teachings of Sant Mat. Neither am I. Brian tells us that after following the teachings for several decades, he became disillusioned and abandoned this mystic path. We are told that Sant Mat is a long journey. I have heard followers say they want more light and sound. We are not in a position to make demands. There is a difference between believing and knowing. Having followed the Sant Mat teachings for many decades, I have come to know their truth. I never stop looking at other philosophies, religions etc. I have never found anything more meaningful than Sant Mat. Lines of Gurus inevitably come to an end. Many people, including me are disillusioned by GSD. Let us remember that Radha Soami Teachings started with Swami Ji in Agra. The ashram in Agra: https://www.dayalbagh.org.in Their spiritual leaders are elected, not appointed. If you spend some time on the website, it will give you an understanding of their approach to the Sant Mat teachings. I balk at obeisance sessions. Apart from that, I am relatively comfortable with their approach to the Sant Mat teachings. Quote from "The Saints Speak Only Of What They Have Seen" by Dadu Dayal: All these experiences lie beyond the reach of the mind, the intellect or reason. People want to acquire this wealth through discussion and mere talk. But words cannot buy it. Neither prayers nor money can procure it. It requires hard work and effort. ... Win the essence of this body through travail. Let Nam materialize within you. You will then discover how it exhilarates. But so long as you do not enter within, how will you experience its intoxicating power, its ineffable peace? If your attention is playing on the plane of the mind and senses, who is there to enjoy that bliss?

[A seeker]

I am not sure if i have understood correctly.
No Kool-aid, you are saying that the teachings are still true, but maybe not RSSB. The only way is to meditate and find out by experience.
This i have understood.

Brian you are saying that there is no proof, and even if someone experiences something, it may be delusion.

I have not thought about this before, but just because someone has had an experience of light or some guru or region, is it really true, or can it be an illusion?

if it can be illusion then maybe even the gurus are deluded. How do I know? If i believe, then I will follow, but there can never be any evidence because maybe others can be deluded and if i also have an experience, I too can be deluded.

perhaps it is all delusion.

Unless the experience is so amazing that it cannot be doubted. I am not sure if that is possible.

everyone seeks an experience - so it becomes their proof. That is what all the followers of RSSB are seeking. very few get it. if they do - it becomes their proof.

This means everyone is desperate for proof so they want an experience. They follow the guru and meditate. it seems very few have an experience and even then its not very convincing so the whole life is spent trying to get proof.

if this is true then it means we are all believing whatever we feel is right.

so what i have believed up until now could all be false. only my belief has kept me going. my parents have believed all their life and because of them i also believed.

That means everything is just belief. nobody knows. so by meditation they all seek absolute truth. few succeed and even if they do still it can be delusion.

everyone is blind. This is scary. all i knew was just belief. That belief gave me confidence because i thought i knew because my belief was strong as my parents were my proof.

[Brian Hines]

A seeker, you may be young, but your intelligence and ability to see into what religion and mysticism are all about impresses me. Trust yourself. Embrace what makes sense to you. Discard what doesn't make sense. Realize, though, that you have a long time left to live, and your views on all kinds of subjects, spirituality included, are going to change markedly over the years.

Regarding experiences in meditation, I used to give satsang talks to various sorts of audiences quite frequently. One of my favorite lines was, "The easiest vow for satsangis to keep is not revealing their inner experiences, because almost no one is having any." That line would get some nervous laughter. After the talk, some people usually would come up to me and say something like, "Thanks for saying what so many of us are thinking, but not admitting."

[um]

@ Seeker

All people do dream and nobody has the same dream.
Some dreams are nightmare's the are real as long as they last.
So do all experiences.
They are real as long as they last

The same is for artificial induced experiences they are real as long as they last.

Even the so called inner experiences like OBDE's , NDE's etc.

What all these experiences do is that they leave an imprint on the mind.

The late MCS, questioned about experiences, would answer that they are to be left alone, if they were pleasant, they were pleasant, if not, not, otherwise they were not to be handled.

This reaction of him corresponds with the recognized Christian authority on meditation and mystic union St John of the Cross, as he states and elaborates that:

IF the lord wants to touch somebody, he does so in darkness".

He goes on to state that often this divine inner touch comes with all sorts of experiences in the form of visions etc. ... and unfortunately ... most people that have them consider them as "THE" touch of the Lord while it is NOT. Moreover being receptive to these experiences opens an door for all sort of [unwanted] powers.

So mysticism is NOT about experiences at all as these experiences are all triples in the mind. They are there for a while and how ever impressive they do not last.

All forms of mysticism, practices and teachings, from Zen to advaita, to suffism and buddhidsm etc etc, as far as I know and understand, are pointing at a STATE beyond the mind as impressive formulated in the second sutra of Patanjali where he says that Yoga is the extinction of these ripples in the chita.

Truth according them is a state, although in flux, it is always the same.

The path itself, any path, is of no value at all, has no truth in it at all.

What matters is the one that travels that path, the one that walks that path of his choice with dedication, devotion, and love.

Any path ..is a WAY OF LIFE

It is up to you and you alone to figure out what YOU want to do with YOUR life

If you go to any teacher in any field of life and ask him whether his craft, art or path is going to make you happy he will say the same ... that is up to YOU .. the path has not that power ... you have it

And yes you have to start out wit a BELIEVE that something is going to make you happy, be that a self made goal or something that is already around in the world and by practicing you have to prove to yourself what you believed to be true

All people that achieved something in life be it worldly or spiritual all had in mind ...YES, I can do it.

The whole secret is to be found in believing, devoition, dedication, effort, love etc etc
And yes some are more able, gifted, willing then others.

The teachings as expressed in the narrative of RSSB speak of two inner vehicles for the consciousness to move, senses on the outside to walk the outer world and sound and light to walk the inner world and they use the alterations of the sound as a means of transport.

If you go through the teachings and descriptions of other practices you will encounter the same although not all practices do use that natural phenomena of inner sounds in the same way, Some prefer the light as means of transport.

And yes it might not be that simple as for many their heart will not be in the practice and the teachings but in all sorts of subconsciousness ulterior motives. as not all that gor to school are realy and solely interested in the subject matter. For them learning is a means to an end that has nothing to do with the subject matter at hand.

So it is my personal point of view that most people that practice this or that path if they were honest to themselves would say that they are not interested at all but that they are after something else, something of the world, some mental or material gratification.

As far as I am concerned that is alright it is up to them they are just punishing themselves with a lie

[A seeker]

Brian, thank you, but I have never thought about any of this before. Doubt has arisen and I am trying to figure this out. I think I have a long way to go.

while i believed, I did not realise it was a belief, I thought I knew. You have helped me to see it
was a belief. my parents never doubt so I never doubted. But seeing the violence, on Sunday, I began to think maybe those sevadars are just people deluded like others

um, What you have written is very good, but I am not able to understand much of it, but I can sense you are trying to explain something profound.

What is OBDE and NDE and MCS ?

i will read what you have written more carefully and slowly. thank you.

[um]

@ Seeker
If you do not understand what I write how can it be good????

OBDE etc .. do use them as search terms in google or GPT program, it takes to much typewriting for me

[Appreciative Reader]

“There is a difference between believing and knowing. Having followed the Sant Mat teachings for many decades, I have come to know their truth.”

……….What exactly have you come to know, No Kool-Aid? And how exactly have you come to know this?

I’m expecting an interesting answer from you, given the handle you’ve chosen to use here!

[Lifeseeker19]

In regards to the incident on Sunday 16th July at the RSSB centre in Coventry. My faith has been completely shaken. I know the person whom this incident involved and he is devastated, traumatised and at a loss in life. He’s been attending babajis satsangs with full devotion for over 30 years with zero incidents. On the day of the satsang, he arrived very early to be able to be seated at the front and have an opportunity to ask a question as he really needed his guidance. When advised a token was required, he went to get a token and was told they’d all been taken, so he started crying and then he was lifted out of the satsang centre. He then quietly sat outside upset. The sevadars then proceeded with force and picked him up and imprisoned him into a shed for the duration of the satsang until babaji left. For someone who suffers with severe claustrophobia he cried and shouted constantly that he couldn’t breathe and they did nothing. All of this occurring within distance of babaji inside the hall. I am a non satsangi who has been watching babajis videos online so maybe one day I can seek his initiation. I am completely taken back as to how this is allowed to happen to his disciples in RSSB as this path is based around love.

[umami]

A seeker,

Did you figure out OBDE, NDE and MCS? um gave you a good exercise. I want to say but don't want to step on his toes.

[um]

@ Umami

Go ahead Umami, I will hide my feet under te table.

[umami]

um,
No hurry, A seeker will probably solve it.

[um]

@AR

Have been watching and lengthy interview with Thomas Hertog a flemish kosmologist from Belgium that worked with alogside Prof Hawkins.
As it was in dutch I could follow the discourse. What was at the table are the different points that are often addressed here.

Maybe his book is something for you:
On the Origin of Time: Stephen Hawking's Final Theory

[No Kool-Aid]

Appreciative Reader: The human body is the laboratory where each of us can carry out this experiment. At the time of Initiation, we are given the technique to carry out this experiment. It is for the individual to prove it for himself. Nobody can convince another person of the truth of the Sant Mat teachings. It is for the individual to experience. You may recall that when Charan Singh was appointed to be the spiritual successor of Jagat Singh, Kirpal Singh was enraged, as he felt he should have been appointed. Kirpal Singh formed a breakaway sect and proceeded to give Initiation to his followers. Kirpal Singh's guru, Sawan Singh took responsibility for Kirpal Singh's followers. Many of us think that GSD has completely lost his way regarding the spiritual responsibilities that his guru Charan Singh bestowed upon him. Charan Singh will take responsibility. I am not going to respond to any further questions/comments.

[um]

@ Umami

The very idea that the key to the development of one human being would depend on another human being, is un acceptable, to say it politely.

"A seeker" stands in need of no-body and he will certainly solve it himselve.

[umami]

um,
My impression too.

[Dera 1990]

I experienced something very similar but with a very different ending. When Charan Singh was walking to give satsang a man suddenly bolted out of the crowd and wrapped their arms around his legs crying loudly. Charan Singh looked shocked and perhaps frightened.

The sevadars were forced to remove him aggressively, they had no choice. However, when satsang was over I looked to the satsang grounds and saw the same man walking with an older sevadar who had his arm around him, speaking what looked like brother to brother. Maybe Charan Singh told the sevadar to go see why this brother was so upset and show him some compassion. This is so different from what you hear about since GSD came to power.

[Dungeness]

@Brian Ji [ Sevadars/volunteers also aren't perfect. Their egos swell when they get to perform some service in the presence of the guru, sometimes acting like jerks. This was one of those times. ]

OTOH, misconduct is often in the eye of the beholder. Some see
goons with swelling egos. Others flash back to Star Trek's iconic
scene of Spock applying a sleeper hold on a punk rocker who
refuses to turn off his ghetto blaster.

[A seeker]

um, I was referring to your answer from this paragraph onwards

All forms of mysticism, practices and teachings, from Zen to advaita, to suffism and buddhidsm etc etc, as far as I know and understand, are pointing at a STATE beyond the mind as impressive formulated in the second sutra of Patanjali where he says that Yoga is the extinction of these ripples in the chita.

I do not understand what you have written here

"The whole secret is to be found in believing, devoition, dedication, effort, love etc etc
And yes some are more able, gifted, willing then others."

and

"The teachings as expressed in the narrative of RSSB speak of two inner vehicles for the consciousness to move, senses on the outside to walk the outer world and sound and light to walk the inner world and they use the alterations of the sound as a means of transport."

NDE is near Death experience
OBDE - no idea - but the DE is probably death experience.
I dont know who the late MCS is

[umami]

MCS
Maharaj Charan Singh!

OBDE
Out of Body Death Experience?
(not completely sure)

[um]

@ Umami

Correct ... :-)

[um]

@ A seeker

The outcome of whatever we do in life depends on our love and dedication.

[Appreciative Reader]

Dear Seeker,

Very profound, those two questions you’ve asked!

These:
“if there is no soul, karma reincarnation then what is the purpose of my life? Why am I here?”
and
“So the experiences that followers of RSSB have, is that all delusion?”

I love the answer Brian’s given to you. Where he says:
“A Seeker, I don't know for sure that there's no God, soul, reincarnation, or any other supernatural entity. All I said is that there's no convincing evidence for these entities. I'd love it if they were real. I'd rather live on after death than be dead and gone forever. But I've concluded that I'd rather live as truthfully as possible now, rather than believe in what currently seem to me to be fantasies. If they're actually true, great. I'll learn that after I die, maybe.”

That’s a lovely answer, that stands out in its simplicity, and honesty, and humility. I don’t think anyone can possibly offer you any more than that.

There are no easy answers, Seeker. You’ll have to work out your own answers yourself, I’m afraid. That is the bad news, or it might be seen as such.

The good news is: You’ve come to the right place! You found the right harbor, on which to base your search off.

Not that Brian’s a complete authority on everything we discuss here. He’s never ever claimed that. But here in this place, and over the many years, he’s addressed so very many aspects of these questions, and explored so very many answers that are available out there. And always addressed each of these questions with perfect honesty and sincerity, never ever claiming to know what he does not in fact know.

I’d arrived at this place a good while back, by happenstance, and I was so struck by the content here that I spent some months going through all of Brian’s posts, starting from the first. You might want to look around a bit, and if your assessment agrees with mine, then you might do well to do the same. What might be particularly …well, useful, is how … engaging this place is, where you may put up all of your sincere queries, and have them addressed: addressed not necessarily inerrantly, but always honestly and sincerely. That two-way communication can be very …useful, for a true seeker. This might be a very cool place to base your wider search off of, a wider search that might, to an extent, be helped along by the references you’ll find here.

Heh, don’t worry, Seeker, you’ve not been buttonholed by the Marketing Department of Churchless, Inc! I’m not going to get a hefty commission if I manage to ensnare you on to here! It’s just that I find myself empathizing with you. Unless I’m mistaken about you, I think I’m a bit older than you. And I guess, again unless I’m mistaken about you, that I’ve been “seeking” for a bit longer than you. Having spent some time here, I think you might benefit from as well as enjoy partaking of this feast laid out here. All gratis, all of it a labor of love undertaken by Brian over the years. Undertaken thanklessly, more often than not! Seva in the true sense of the word, IMV.

It’s not that I’m necessarily any closer to arriving at concrete answers, but it’s just that I may have been able, over the last few years, to have clarified my thoughts and my understanding just a bit better than when I’d started out. I’ll try to address these two questions of yours as best I can in the next comment. (With the clear admission, with the clear understanding, that I don’t actually have a clue, really, and I’m only thinking this through along with you, and maybe no better than you might do it yourself.)

[Appreciative Reader]

Your first question: “if there is no soul, karma reincarnation then what is the purpose of my life? Why am I here?”

Answer: None. There is no purpose to your life. None at all. You are here simply as a result of happenstance. The forces of evolution have shaped your human body, and the forces of evolution have equipped you with consciousness and self-awareness. This brief flicker of life and of lucidity, that shines bright now, is like the flame of a candle, that will soon flicker out, gone for ever.

In a sense that flicker is no more than merely an illusion, in as much as your self has no corporeal existence, nor, arguably, any ‘real’ existence. In another sense, though, it is the only thing there is; and the best we can do is to understand it, and understand the world around us, and make of it what we can.

This realization, it can be unsettling, it can be scary, it can be devastating. I can well see how realizing something like this might, for someone conditioned to fixity of belief all of their life, literally drive them out of their mind, or drive them to kill themselves.

On the other hand, this realization can also be completely liberating. It can lift from your shoulders the burden of vast weights that you suddenly realize you need no longer carry. It opens up to you the whole world, to do with as you please, obviously within the constraints of what is available to you.

Or, of course, and depending on how you’re constituted, you may, on understanding this, merely shrug your shoulders, and brush off these abstractions, that don’t matter to you in any case (provided you’re constituted that way, as many are).

Regardless of whether you find that prospect good, or bad, or ugly; but that’s what is the truth, like it or not. Or at least, that’s what seems most likely to be the truth, as far as I can make out myself.

You figure out your own purpose in life. You may choose to live without a wider purpose, for better or for worse. Or you may continue to blindly take on purposes foisted on to you by “society”, however defined. Or you may work out a wider purpose for yourself, if you like, basis what you understand of yourself and of the world around you.

(I suppose, if you’re drawn to truth, then an intermediate “purpose” might be to figure things out for yourself, the answers to “life, the universe, and everything”. Because the answers to the rest of your questions on life will ultimately be predicated on that answer. While that sounds reasonable, but then again, since any purpose is ultimately as good as another, and life’s short enough; therefore there’s no reason really why an unexamined adherence to some external purpose is necessarily ‘bad’, unless it happens to make for unhappiness. I suppose it’s simply a question of how you’re constituted, and maybe what makes for happiness in your individual case.)

--------------------

Your second question: “So the experiences that followers of RSSB have, is that all delusion?”

Answer: Here’s the possibilities:
(Feel free to add to them, if any other occur to you that I haven’t thought of. They’re simply thought up off the cuff, is all.)

1. It could simply be lies.
It could simply be someone puffing themselves up to make themselves feel important, and maybe to further either their own personal ends or maybe their larger socio-political ends. That’s a perfectly cromulent explanation for Moses, for instance, and indeed for anyone and everyone else that’s ever made claims of having had these visions and explanations. In fact, all of these possibilities are that, I guess.

2. It could be honestly but incorrectly perceived.
A few posts back, Brian’s presented a fascinating series of articles about how perception works, that discusses the actual mechanism of how your brain models what we perceive of reality. Depending on what your “priors” are, you might actually end up seeing things that, to what we’ll call a saner worldview, might not exist at all. The demons in a demon-haunted world may actually be honestly perceived, apparently! Likewise these visions and “experiences”.

3. It might be the hallucinations of a diseased mind, or maybe a mind under the influence of hallucinogens.

4. It might be the case that our neural pathways are so constituted that, when excited just so, they produce these results. Like if you press your eyes shut, and hold the lids, you see a reddish background, that’s merely the blood coursing through. Or the tinning sound in your ears sometimes, that doesn’t derive from outer reality. Something like that, except far more subtle, and far more dramatic.
It could be the case that we can all of us experience these. Some more easily, some less easily. But they’re nothing more, and nothing less, than the tinning of your ears or the red haze of blood coursing through your closed eyelids. In and of themselves neither good, nor bad, these experiences, except in their effects on you. If they happen to be pleasant, or if as some claim they’re blissful, well then that’s cool, who doesn’t want bliss after all.

5. They might actually be visions of, and conduits to, a higher reality, a supranormal reality that the human body gives us a chance to access.

(I’ve no clue which of these possibilities is actually the case. Of course, if you’ve yourself had these experiences yourself, then I guess you can rule out #1, that is to say outright fabrication. There’s that much at least to be said for embarking on a quest for experiences. On the other hand, depending on what the actual answer might be, the game may not be worth the candle, really: unless it turns out that #5 is where we’re at, or at the very least at a very pleasurable version of #4. And while I don’t rule out #5, obviously, but equally obviously #5 appears …well, to put it gently, not very likely.)

(Oh, and yes: Obviously, what follows from the portion within those parentheses above, would be the question: So how *do* I finally find out what the answer is? I don’t know! And I don’t know how anyone can possibly know, for sure I mean to say! In fact, I’d say, beware of anyone who does claim to know: they’re probably out to gyp you in some way or the other. I suppose the only answer that seems possible, in this as in all other things, is to simply go with what seems most likely, and to forget about ironclad truths. On that basis #5 would appear very unlikely! Although if you’d like continue exploring that option nevertheless, experientially I mean to say, then I don’t see that that’s necessarily unreasonable, provided you do that with your eyes wide open, and without giving in to delusion and superstition, and while acknowledging that the odds are, objectively speaking, firmly against you. In which case there’s the little matter of which particular rabbit hole, or holes, you choose to explore, whether the RSSB of your parents, or something else instead, or maybe something else also. …Sorry, I did warn you, no easy answers!)

[A seeker]

Hi Appreciative Reader,
I have just read your comments very quickly and will read them carefully later.

Followers of RSSB want clear amswers. I too want clear answers. That is what I always thought I had.

I was sure that RSSB is the only way to meet God. Karma, Reincarnation, Sach Khand etc, these are just facts according to what RSSB followers think and what i used to think.

Its very disturbing to think this is not true.
If its not true, then who is Baba Ji?

Is he just misleading everyone?
He seems like too nice to do that. I know there are things written about him, but he doesn't look like a nasty person.

He also says some things that confuse me like "you are not separate"

I can see you and Brian are very honest. Maybe too honest.

I cannot accept there is no purpose to life. then life is pointless.
i want a purpose and God and want to be able to get to Sach Khand one day.

That gives a meaning and purpose to my life.

if life has no purpose I don't know what to do. a meaningless life is like a nightmare

I don't think it can be true

Brian says he does not know. you also do not know.

maybe someone does know.

RSSB followers fhink that Baba Ji knows.

I am not sure, but I hope he does.

He talks like he knows.

if he doesn't then its a bit scary because we're kind of all lost. Many people will not know how to live their life.

I will read what you have written carefully and then write again

[Appreciative Reader]

Dear Seeker,

Take your time. Whenever you’re ready, and whatever you wish to ask, I’ll be happy to address as best I can. I don’t mean to patronize you, but you remind me of my own self from some years back; and even though I don’t really know any better, but maybe I can think things through with you, and maybe that might help you see things a bit more clearly.

Keep in mind that it’s easy enough to make claims. Someone saying they know, is not the same as their actually knowing. People make claims for all kinds of reasons, some dishonest, some honest but deluded, some simply mistaken. I’d advise you to rely strongly on sharp robust skepticism, particularly when dealing with something as …wispy, as spirituality.

But in order to be effective, skepticism needs to based on knowledge, the wider the better. That’s why I suggested a wider perusal of Brian’s blog. If you took the time to look deeper, you’ll find a complete treasure trove of discussions here that directly relate to this kind of seeking, that’s taken from diverse fields. A wider base of knowledge about these things might help you arrive at a more rounded understanding of these questions that you’re asking.

Good luck, Seeker, and God bless.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Seeker
You asked
"I thought the sevadars were good people who were serving and helping others. Surely karmas are created when such actions are taken against people who are just trying to ask a question."

You are attempting to reconcile a very old question. If God exists, how can evil also exist?

When this appears to happen in Satsang right in front of you, the question simply is converted to, 'If people in Satsang, appointed Sevadars, appear to be mistreating seekers and Satsangis, can this path and this master be legitimate? '

You are asking for answers from people who weren't there. Some of them here are Atheists, even anti - theists, each with their own experience or lack thereof to defend their conclusions. What sort of answers do you expect them to give?

Have you determined where their expertise is?

They are experts of their own experience, and see the world through that. That view is their enlightenment. And their prison.

Does it help you understand your own experience better, and decide on what to believe?

Because you alone must and will make that decision for yourself. You already have, and are moving in the direction to gather the views and opinions to support it. But I say go with your gut. Look at what is inside you. Look at what you see around you, and make your own decision what to believe. Of course, you will.

I just suggest that you own 100% your personal choice, not because anything or anyone appears to be good or bad, not because of some rationalizations, which can be just excuses, but because you have a basis of personal experience that you can test and repeat and know for yourself. If God exists, he is in you, your God. If God isn't in you, there is no God.

So who can help you find that? Find what is inside you?

You should never have to read anyone's mind, or see someone's karma, or judge anything based on second hand information or appearances about anyone else. These are all very questionable sources. And a huge waste of time. Stop being appalled by what you see. That will fill up your day and distract you from more valuable pursuits: truth.

Your beliefs should rest entirely on what you believe is right and true and helpful. That includes drawing conclusions based on solid experience and information, going to the trouble to explore and investigate so that you never judge on superficial appearances, but on something unshakable and continuously in evidence... Something inside you.

It's there.

[A seeker]

one thing I find very inpressive is that people on here care. Nobody here knows me and yet so many are coming to help me to understand.

Until i witnessed this in satsang, I just believed like everyone else.

After this, something just did not feel right about one person being dragged outside and nobody helping him.

Now it appears he was also mistreated even more seriously after leaving the hall.

before it was a little concerning but if this is true, then it seriously questions what is happening at RSSB and i think RSSB need to conduct an internal inquiry

how can a spiritual organisation possibly allow something like this to happen?

does it not break the rule "do not hurt another"

how far will sevadars go before they realise this is not normal behaviour?

This is very concerning because I wonder why nobody helped him. Surely it is just normal to help somebody and to put a stop to something like this happening at a satsang.

If I was there I would have asked those sevadars what they are doing and what was the purpose.

This is a story I came across about three people we all know very well. They are called
Everybody, Somebody, and Nobody

Everybody thought Somebody would help.
Somebody thought Everybody would help.
Nobody helped because he was waiting for Somebody and Somebody was waiting for Everybody.
In the end Everybody just watched as Nobody helped and then Somebody complained that Everybody should have helped but Nobody actually helped.

The moral.
If Everybody waits for Somebody, then Nobody will do it because Somebody waits for Everybody and Everybody waits for Somebody. Nobody does it in the end because Everybody is waiting. Until Somebody does it, Everybody will keep on waiting and watching, and Nobody will actually do it.

Why did the sevadars act in that way and take things too far?

Maybe people get carried away when they are in groups because each person thinks it must be okay if other members of the group are not objecting.

Darren Brown made an episode called "try not to kill the cat"
it shows humans can't resist doing what they are told not to do.
I guess a bit like adam and eve when they were told not to eat of the tree of knowledge.

https://youtu.be/T4u1Zo4szkw

it seems like humans do what they are told not to do

watch it - its very interesting

[um]

@ Seeker

What HE does reminds me of NLP or hypnosis

But you are right that CERTAIN people are prone to act in situations related to a guru, in a unexpected way, un-expected both for themselves and others, which can result in negative but also positive, funny behavior.

It seems that the way they mentally process the concept of a guru,, attribute meaning and value, allows them to let the cat out of the box.

So in the public domain, SOME people will do things that they normally would NOT do as they are "don'ts in public"

Their concept of a guru allows them to change, overrule the internalization of what can be done in the public domain and what not.

They use the stepping over these lines in an attempt to "Prove to themselves" he is what they believe him to be.

That said .. all these things are just "fodder for psychologists"

Rumi said: "Come as you are, but do come"

P.S.
If you talk to followers of any teaching, path etc you will soon find that their socio- cultural conditioning HEAVILY colors the meaning and value THEY attribute to these teachings, teacher and practices.
Those born Christians will tend to behave as "christian" seeker and disciple. One can even differentiate between those having an RC or Protestant background and whether they were raised more or less orthodox.
The same holds for many other personal traits.
Those that are prone to think .. will think and those that are prone to feelings will feel.
Those that have vivid imaginations will be more prone to "see"things than others
And the list goes on and on...
That all said ..Rumi says ... come as you are

[JR]

@ Seeker
It seems, the sangat member tried to get the token to ask a question, but no more available. Is this correct?. If it is so, then they should just go and sit down. Instead the sangat member started pleading with the sevadars to allow him to ask a question.

If they allowed him to ask a question what message does that show to the other sangat members who also did not get selected to ask a question? Would they not be upset, that all they had to do was plead and get to ask a question?

So sevadars do not want to show any favouritism and allow this sangat member to ask a question. If he refuses to back down and continues pleading, what options to the sevadars have to end this situation?. Continue requesting the sangat member to please go and sit down. The sangat member was obviously not budging and he did not want to go without getting the response he wanted.

The only option left is to remove the sangat member and reason with them away from the hall.

How do you know he was mistreated even more seriously after leaving the hall? Did you see this for yourself or hear about it 3rd hand?

This situation is no different to when a rowdy clubber refuses to leave a nightclub after being requested to by security. They end up escorting the clubber out of the building.

The difference with the person attending satsang is if he co-operated with the request to sit down, he would still be in the hall. Maybe he was let back into the hall, if he said he would not be a nuisance anymore.

[um]

@ JR

Theoretically you are correct and things can happen as you suggest but all that have been around in the sangat do ALSO know that at occasions, certain sevadars, may over react in an unpleasant way.

So Yes the visitor could and should have accepted the situation but not doing so is an guarantee that the sevadars did not over reacted.

Many sevadars are doing their seva under mental pression for fear being kicked out.

[um]

@JR

And do not forget that these sevadars are in no way trained, nor selected for their fitness for these types of work ... they are all, irrespective of their background in society, well willing volunteers ... that hope that their perfect performance of their seva will bring them spiritual reward.... its is all fodder for psychologists what is happening in those centra

[um]

@ JR

In the premisses of these ashrams, people have to leave "the world" behind.
That is not said but that is the unspoken rule.
Inside they want to "forget" about the world and live life their own way and according their own unwritten laws of social behavior.

This must be the result of reading their books that tell many a story in which the rules of the world are ignored to say it politely

And yes in some cultures people are more prone to grasp the rules of the game than elsewhere and so it is for individuals.

I am almost certain that if that man had digested the RSSB narrative in another way, he would not have come to problem.

And ,, from within that narrative there will certainly be "spiritual" explanations for what happened to the man. And if some misfortune will befall the man hereafter , you can be assured that there will be "good willing satsangis" telling him that it is due to his "misbehaviour"etc

Sant mat is funny and fodder for psychologists.

[A seeker]

Maybe this happens all the time, but it was the first time I saw it first hand.

Satsang is not a night club. If someone doesn't obey what is wrong with requesting them to follow the rules and if they still refuse, them sit at the end of the queue, after the people with the tokens

If he is lucky, he will get to ask his question.

That would be the compassionate approach. If he gets to ask his question after being at the end of the queue, what is the harm? What is the need for violence and force? Hoe does that make sense? Why would a sevadar do that? Maybe it will be bad karma for him. Why do such a seva that gives you bad karma

If the disciples are there for spiritual progress, why risk bad karma. better not to do any seva than one that involves violence

[AA]

@JR

What this whole exercise for ?

they do not need the big team of sevadars and also don't need to build or rent big hall , pandal etc. baba g just can sit in front of camera and become on live stream on YouTube and do satsang also does session of questions answers but baba g doesn't want to come outside from his comfort zone. baba g is not soo brave that he could do online session of questions answers and do online satsang.
Baba Ji knows that the whole world is not a blind devotee. There are such intelligent and rational people in the world who can correctly assess what baba g says .

[um]

@AA and Others

Having been around for years before it all faded out again, I had come to the conclusion that there is a rather huge unbridgeable discrepancy between what these teachers, teach in their books and in publicly addressing and the people in the audience.

The sant mat narrative as "sold" to the public by its teachers is completely different from the public narrative created and uphold by the seekers, disciples etc

They are almost two different worlds that have nothing to do with one another.

So when a guru says for example "I do not know" they tell one another that he does know but it is his humility or something else that makes him say that he does not know.
These distortions of reality, as far as I see, are on the same level of those that believe
in this or that plot , people that live in an imaginary world of their own created by themselves for their own reasons.

Remember those people that ran into the capitol. Some dressed up in weird outfits. In my understanding most of the satsangs where a guru is present, invisible the same happens,so to speak. Among the audience there are people that have realy weird ideas about reality, about sant mat etc full of false and unrealistic expectations of the teachings and the teachers they have made it into their own narrative.

In how far these gurus are responsible for it themselves, I have no idea.

What I do know however is that it is all locally socially and culturally determined ... things that do happen in England, with a predominant audience of Indians etc would not happen in other places. and the other way around

I remember vaguely that the imaginative power of people in India is such that they think an actor to play Krishna to be that god and flock for his door to receive his blessings. and in the end the poor fellow cannot do otherwise.

Writing this makes me remember what the late MCS said when he was told he was the succesor ... He [his grandfather guru] has given me to them [ the sangat] and they will take what is theirs... something like that... and THAT ... is exactly what happens.

THEY .. take what is "theirs" ran away with it, make of it whatever they want and ..hold the guru responsible if he doesn't deliver what they have in mind.

It is all fodder for sociology, psychology and has nothing to do with spirituality .. it is impossible with these amounts of people spread over so many countries, cultures and individual local managers.

Time for coffee ....and .. have patience, it will all come to and end and start anew.

[2 cents]

A seeker, you are on the right tract to seek the truth by asking difficult questions. Whichever path you choose, will be the right path for you.
RSSB is transforming. Into what? I don't know.
"Where there is compassion, there is dharma/duty;
Where there is greed, there is sin.
Where there is anger, there is Satan/kaal.
Where there is forgiveness, there is God Himself."
Dariya Lal, GM's sec. had insulted and mistreated a women who was waiting by the door of GM's residence to have his darshan.
GM heard about it and told DL to go and apologize to the woman. When he finally went, the woman forgave him before he could ask.
MCS, a very wise man, was not in favor of centers, due to their attraction for people seeking status, power, influence etc. and associated politics, hierarchies, conflicts, struggles, and discord. In his satsangs he would say that religions are just empty shells. All spirituality had vanished.
RSSB had definitely changed. There is more religiosity than spirituality. And management doesn't seem to mind.
Different strokes, for different folks.

[um]

@ 3 cents

>>RSSB had definitely changed. There is more religiosity than spirituality. And management doesn't seem to mind. Different strokes, for different folks.<<

When I read this, it made me think of an river, its birth high in the mountains, its often stormy fall to the plains, calming down in to a river where humans and animals alike benefit from its water, in order to end, wide spread as a shallow, muddy and far stretched out estuary into sea to find rest for its remaining water/

Water at the beginning and the end is still the same ... water ... only its appearance changed over time, running through so many different circumstances.

Did RSSB change or society where it has to perform???
And had it by necessity to conform, adapt, like the river????

Who knows ... hahaha.

[2 cents]

Ok. So the water is the same. Is it though? A drink at one location of the river is very refreshing. But from a different location, can be potentially lethal, due to contaminants and germs. And the ocean water at river's end is undrinkable due to salinity. Same water.

[um]

@ 2 cents

That is correct but at every point you refer to the water has not changed.
Water is like a car, it can transport and contain everything.

[Seeker 1]

Hi
I witnessed it as well. I don't know the whole story. But I did see baba ji' close sevadar (Raj Johal I think is the name) holding this person by the collar while others were carrying him out. I am also disturbed by the incident. It could be have been anyone.

[gurinderscam]

A Seeker: Many former satsangis have stopped attending satsangs in recent years and no longer follow the path. I've heard that satsang attendance has halved compared to ~5 years ago, at least here in California. This has mostly been driven by the financial scandal. You can read about this online and on this website, and can even look up the court documents, which is what convinced me that GSD was a fraud. Why has a spiritual saint who preaches simplicity amassed hundreds of millions of dollars in assets after he became the guru?

[JP]

Dear All,
I'm following RSSB. I'm initiated by Huzur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji. His teachings are very true.
After reading this Blog have lost faith in GSD, but still I love Maharaj Charan Singh Ji.