What if religions are wrong and there's nothing to find?

In my experience, the most difficult part of writing is the first sentence and the last sentence. With one, there's nothing that comes before. With the other, there's nothing that comes after. So those sentences are unique.

I struggled with the first sentence in my book, Return to the One. Until finally, a sentence popped into my head that seemed just right to me.

If something has been lost and you're not sure where to look for it, there's good reason to start searching right where you are rather than far afield.

Then I spoke about the familiar situation (familiar to me, at least) of looking for your car keys only to discover that they were sitting unnoticed in a pocket or purse the whole time.

But let's think about what's necessary for a search to make sense. To begin with, you really need to have lost something. Meaning, it was in your possession at one point, and now it isn't. Then there has to be a decent probability that you can find that thing you used to possess.

If you're on a cruise and drop your glasses into the ocean while leaning over a railing, you know what you've lost, but for all practical purposes you have a zero chance of finding that item.

In Return to the One I argued that we have a sense of loss, yet most of us don't understand what we're longing to recover: God, or the One. I feel like I did a pretty good job making that argument, yet in my current frame of mind I no longer find what I wrote to be persuasive.

I still like my first sentence in the book, though. But now I see it as pointing toward the desirability of living in the here and now, rather than a there and then. After all, where we are, where everyone is, without exception, is the present moment.

No searching required. Just be here now.

This, of course, is the essence of mindfulness. And of the non-religious aspect of Buddhism, which includes Zen. Such distinguishes these forms of spirituality from the seeking forms of spirituality and religion where there is much talk of a path to be followed, and signs of progress along the way.

Here's some illustrative passages from Jon Kabat-Zinn's book, Mindfulness for Beginners: reclaiming the present moment -- and your life.

Not only is it always now. The "curriculum" of this adventure we call living, where mindfulness can play such a pivotal role, is always what is unfolding in this moment, whether we like what is happening or not. 

Whatever is arising in this moment becomes the curriculum for liberating ourselves from the shackles of greed, hatred, and delusion. We do not need some ideal or romantic fairy tale of what would be best for us. What we most need is what is already given to us: the actuality of things as they are in the only moment we will ever have -- this one.

...So as we have already seen, the notion that in meditation practice there is no place to go, nothing to do, and nothing to attain can be quite strange and mysterious -- even foreign -- to our striving temperaments and our need to always be getting better.

...Non-striving is not trivial. It involves realizing that you are already here. There's no place to go, because the agenda is simply to be awake. 

It is not framed as some ideal that suggests that after forty years of sitting in a cave in the Himalayas, or by studying with august teachers, or doing ten thousand prostrations, or whatever it is, you will necessarily be any better than you are now.

It is likely that you will just be older. What happens now is what matters.

If you don't pay attention now, as Kabir, the great Indian poet of sixteenth-century India said, "You will simply end up with an apartment in the City of Death."

...Awareness itself is what mindfulness is about. It is not about achieving an ideal, or a particularly desirable or longed-for special state.

If the mind is thinking: "If I meditate I'll always be compassionate. I'll be like the Dalai Lama. I'll be like Mother Teresa" or whoever your spiritual guru/hero of the moment is, it may help to remind yourself that you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of being like the Dalai Lama or Mother Teresa or anybody else. Nor do you know what their interior experience is.

The only person that you have the remotest possibility of being like is yourself. And that, when it comes down to it, is the real challenge of mindfulness: the challenge to be yourself.

The irony, of course, is that you already are.

Comments

[um]

What do we humans do?

We push against something, we move something, material mental and spirutual.
That movement, must have effect.
The effectt is caused by the intent and the field in which it operates.

Think of Tai Chi.

We do things IN ORDER TO .....

In a sense, these movements can be called ..creative ... as they create the effect

Have a look at artists, their mental and other movements creates art out of "nothing", out of imagination, a book a painting , a composition of music

Religion, spirituality but also other ideologies like there are in politics are also means to move, means to created, means to change [what is alredy there]

Like in every walk of life in spirituality, mysticism there are "masters of art" .. with great drive, talent, dedication etc

Humans cannot excel in everything ...
Not all have the same strength of imagination
Not all are able to manipulate the law of attraction / creation

They might pray their whole live and end up believing that they are talking to themselves .. that there is nothing.

They are right there is nothing.

If the painter doesn't move, nothing appears on the canvas.
What appears on the canvas is the outcome of his love and devotion.
And if that is not there,
there is nothing one can do
the pull must come from within.

What starts the first sentence .......

the circumstance play a role to ... in many ways.
If the young artist, is told by those around him that it will not work out, lead to nothing, that he is a no-good or it is a -no good ... he might believe ot and give in and up.

Sometimes, artists needs some courage to hang on and not be afraid for earning his livelihood and give up in search for a common job in society.

[um]

In the train to Pordenone in Italy the well to do lady in frond of him said:
"Young man, you are like my son, and artist without art"

How could the young lad, grener than grass, grasp the meaning of these words at that age?!

What does an artist without art do in his life?
He wants, from within "to do something" but he doesn't know what.

Then he looks at what others do, what others tell him to do, and tries to become like one of them but he finds no satisfaction in what he does..

Frustrated he asks everybody what do do,.. priests, counselors and even saints ... without avail ... the priests came with the perspective, the counselors with help and the saint, gazed, in silence at him with dark eyes.

In the end he gives in and up and accepts his fate of being an artist without art..
He returns to his home, leaves the hustle bustle of the streets of life behind, resides there and finds company within himself

[Kranvir]

Religion and cults like rssb indeed need to trick you to look for something, and go around in circles in a circus, and completely waste your life in slavery. The proof is the difference between sawan teaching and that of fake ass baba gurinder singh dhillon. One gave a kind of a wild goose chase map in mental dimensions while the other is clueless and says burn all the books and who is more preoccupied in making money, gaining power and a desire to be the spiritual leader of the future supercult - rather like the Pope in the Vatican.

It is only because we are suffering in this life we look for a solice, an anchor and in this desperate state we fall for predator gurus like Gurinder who promises you god in 4 lifetime's- LOL!!. Little do you know that this fake ass satanic guru creates your problems so he can come in like a superhero with false promises and in turn rape your mind body and soul for his sickly pleasure.

[um]

@ Kranvir

What is the difference between the teachings as presented by the different teachers.?

You have to present as a proof what THEY say and not what others say ...AND ... YOU have to explain the difference as something fundamental in the teaching.

Until now you have not come up with something other than an expression of your own state of mind.

[El]

Being an artist without art
Sounds better than the more common condition
An artist without heart
At least the first one is forced into self-examination
If those are the only conditions in life which one are you.
It would be poetic justice that the sevadars jockeying for position and importance get art- (or is it heart-) free meditation.

[um]

>>What if religions are wrong and there's nothing to find?<<

What if religions are right and there is something to GIVE?

Where and when has a person the possibility, to give for free?
Give for free what was given for free?

Devotion.

[Trez]

What if religions are wrong and there's nothing to find?

Well theres definitely nothing to find in following Radha Soami and Gurinder Singh Dhilions perverse Cult as many have said and left

Just look at how he lays out carefully spoken bullyshit satsangs full of fear ridden and jackass stories he himself has come up with about why we need to listen to his crap in the first place because it is so important for one to gain enlightenment and one can only from him. He calls himself silently the only real baba in this world. LOL

Come on Gurinder it's smells vile and it's totally lies, you know it too

How can you find God? By doing Kaals(Devils) meditation does that even add up?
So why is Gurinder giving out kaals meditation naam daan to all his Sangat?
Where are they all headed?

And care to think what and why is he looking at the sangat in that overdramatic eye ball weary eyed way at them, it's darshan oh really or is it black magic.

Ask him it's evil and no real Saint ever found in history ever did that

So get real it's black n evil magic he does with his eyes at every place he attends worldwide and not darshan

Gurinder Singh dhillon is KAALS baba here sent to delude innocent people And take they're souls back to Kaal

And since when does one fill up his bank and vaults with the riches of the world then go on and sit on stages worldwide and have the nerve to even preach to others about why we need to go and work for a honest living?

King of bull that's who Gurinder Singh bull baba get back to that waiter job in Spain then start giving satsang to others.

Lying, contradicting donkey

There has been so much written and EXPOSED worldwide about Gurinder Singh Dhilion only a fool would fall for his lies

There is NOTHING to be gained listening to this Baba.

How disgusting and disturbing is it to find out this fancy dressed baba is all Gurinder is and taking advantage of others is a way of life for him to make a cheap ass living of others

Listen to yourself it tells you all you need to know deep within to watch out for this lying SNAKE known as Gurinder Singh Dhilion he devors all, for his father Kaal

[um]

# Trez

You call what you and your alter ego's and friends put her ..EXPOSING??

Strange Trez ..given the way you react gives me the impression that you unsuccessfully try to suppress the fear that you are on the brink of becoming an satsangi, a devout follower.

You see Trez you are manipulating the law of attraction.

The stronger you act against him the strong his energy field will work on you.
or in common language
Those who handle tar, easily get stained

[um]

@ Trez

Do yourself a favor ... a favor that will not be offered to you that often ... take your last message, stand before the mirror and scream your words out with all the power you have .... then have a look at your face and be quit for a moment ... it will be revealing

I wish you have the corage to do it.

Best of luck

[um]

@ Trez

>> What if religions are wrong and there's nothing to find?

Well theres definitely nothing to find in following Radha Soami and Gurinder Singh Dhilions perverse Cult as many have said and left <<

Well tres, You will not believe but theres NOWHERE a thing to be found, .........
N O W H E R E

But ... trez we can ATTRIBUTE meaning and value to whatever we want

And ...trez we can GIVE from ourselves, our devotion, love respect but also ......
our .... HATRED

What we GIVE will ...watch what comes Trez .... the giver.

If you give hatred Trez you will receive it in abundance from the universe.
You will reap what you sow.

Have some coffee and relax

[Kranvir]

The one rssb agent , but he doesn't even know it, or even admit it is still biting back. This is how kaal works, as he makes you think you are doing seva, or makes you feel sorry for gurinder, either way he controls you and blinds you. But this baba is a monster, deep down gurinder plans revolve around how much he can take for himself and his sons in exchange for doing the puppet masters , kaal , dirty work of creating a global super cult / religion, grab as much souls as possible, and he can sit on top of his empire and be worshipped as a god. This is what kaal has always wanted. He wants to create suffering of mankind , suffering of the souls, which are the essence of god, and does this through reincarnation of a suffering humanity and has the nerve to call it our fault as it's your karma. Wake up and do an objective research, im not going to spoon feed you, open your self for new information, as the info is out there if you really want the truth. This forum has already done most the work for you.

[um]

@ Kranvir

How do you if there is such a thing as Kal?
Have you met Kaal?
Did kaat inform you what he wants?

Tell us readers how you know all these things.

[um]

@ Kranvir

>> Wake up and do an objective research, im not going to spoon feed you, open your self for new information, as the info is out there if you really want the truth.<<

We all can spoon ourselves but there must be something to spoon Kranvir.

Until now you have not come up with any information.
You have serves us , your diatribes etc, shown us you character etc but otherwise nothing .

Give us the information on your wisdom of Kaal
Give us the internet links were we can inform ourselves about your visions.

[um]

And Kranvir

In this side of the world nobody knows anything about "kaal"
If you use the word in our language it refers to person that has lost his hair.

[um]

And Kranvir, Trez and friends

Although I have stated it before, I will do it again for the record.

I do NOT defend anybody or anything, no teacher, no teaching, nothing of that all.
You can try to MAKE IT SEEN that way but it is not, as there is nothing in it for me.

I am addressing what you and others write here .. that is all.
It is about you

You see [brave] Kranvir ea if you would stand before Gurinder and I would stand next to the both of you I would not say a word .. I would be interested in what would happen between the two of you but what you would say would be meaningless for me.

But here, YOU speak to us, to me as one of us .. that is the point Kranvir.

I am the least interest in him

[Humpty]

Hey Um i dont understand why you get so worked out with these guys postings (Trez, Kranvir etc) - Enjoy your coffee in silence!

[um]

@ Humpty

I do not get why you react in this way>
On to the coffee ...

[Trez]

@ ?

Ah, The church of the churchless comments section clown, always an entertaining sight

[um]

@ Trez

This afternoon when I was walking in the forest, hands on my back and the rosary in my hands, I was thinking of you and your words, then I heard a blackbird singing and its singing made me aware of the background .. silence.

[um]

@ Trez, kranvir, etc

Making coffee, I was reminded of something I would tell people years and years ago.

"People do marry with their own expectations and later seek Themistocles the person that is most likely to fulfill these expectations. If the person doesn't deliver, they will start to push and pull and eventually they will turn their back upon them, disregarding their solemn promises never to leave that person for better or worse"

In between you and friends are all gazing at him but I am interested in the psychological games people play ... surprise, surprise mostly with themselves.

When people ask to be accepted by a teacher, to walk and be guide to walk a given path. They come with a set of expectations ... THEIR expectations !! ... expectations they project, consciously or unconsciously upon the teacher and his teachings and make him responsibly for the gratification of these unspoken desires and expectations.

You see Trez ?!

It has nothing to do with teachers and teachings but with the mental setup of a so called seeker.

Then what happens if a teacher is accused of criminal acts and eventually found guilty.?

Well nothing changes for the seeker, he stiil has his expectations, desires and is responsible for them ... and .. he is still bound to his solemn promises he made when asking for admission.

You see Trez, the criminal acts of a guru cannot absolve him from these promises he made FOR himself and WITH himself and nobody outside.

These are all psychological games tres that people love to play with themselves.

They forget to look in the mirror now and then. /... hahaha

Coffe must be ready

[um]

P>S

the person that is most suited etc

[um]

PRINCE OF THE WORLD ...ideology as seen by GPS and who adheres to it:

There are various groups and individuals who subscribe to the "prince of the world" ideology.

Some fundamentalist Christian groups view the "prince of the world" as Satan, who is seen as a secret power trying to lead people away from God and into sin. Within the

New Age movement, the "prince of the world" is sometimes seen as a force of darkness that oppresses and divides humanity.

On the other hand, some conspiracy theorists claim that there is a secret elite that controls the world from behind the scenes, serving the "prince of the world." These groups often believe in conspiracy theories such as the New World Order and the Illuminati.

Additionally, within some nationalist and far-right groups, the "prince of the world" is sometimes seen as a symbol of hostile forces that threaten the nation. These groups may believe, for example, that immigrants and refugees are part of a conspiracy to destroy Western civilization.

It's important to note that subscribing to the "prince of the world" ideology doesn't necessarily involve fixed groups, and individuals and groups with diverse backgrounds and beliefs may embrace these ideas.

It's also important to emphasize that this ideology is often not based on facts, and it's important to remain critical and investigate claims before accepting them.

[AA]

If someone starts searching for something that does not exist in reality, can his search ever reach any conclusion? The age of the universe would be too short for such a search to come to a conclusion, because you will never have a clue about the existence or non-existence of something that does not exist, even if you spend your life searching for it. Spirituality which is presented as an independent search method is such kinda of a search. But spiritual people take it as a challenge. Although this is very silly. They say that this discovery is only for those who are ready to risk their lives. In this way they try to present themselves as a braveheart who has put his life on the line in search of God.

[AA]

In fact, whether God exists or not, this question itself is wrong. The right question is "How did the universe come into existence?" God is a concept coined in an attempt to get an answer to this question, which is only a product of human imagination. Now if someone makes any imagination the subject of research, can he ever reach any conclusion?

[AA]

Spirituality is actually like a recycle mechanism of religion itself. Those who are a little studious, coming to the level of maturity, the realization of the baselessness of the claims of religion starts shaking their faith. Only then the web of spirituality surrounds them. Just like after porting your mobile number, offers start coming from the marketing department of the service provider company. Hey where are you thinking of going? Who are you doubting? On your ancestral religion? The same religion with which you spent so many years. Don't be so cruel. Have you considered your ancestral religion so weak? It is a matter of proof, isn't it? Yes, you will get the proof. What's the big deal? Have you just searched where to find it? Find it right If you don't find even after searching then talk. You have created a mood to walk without searching. Let's find Now what does the blind need "two eyes". Religious people anyway keep searching for straws to save their beliefs from drowning. This makes perfect sense to anyone who has deep faith in their religion. And in this way, by cleverly suppressing the colic of doubt, the person is again pushed into the same stupidity.

You will find mostly educated people around all the so-called spiritual gurus, you will mostly see less educated people clapping in the pandals of storytellers. Currently, Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev and Baba Gurinder singh Dhillon are the best example of this. These are all the same people who reach out to such gurus in an attempt to provide a firm foundation to their shaky religious beliefs, caught in a web of tempting arguments.

spirituality is nothing but religiosity equipped with a few better dogmas. Spiritual people may think of themselves as independent seekers, but in reality they have become only slightly more skilled at self-deception than ordinary religious people.

[AA]

Buddhtatv = intelligence
Chutiyatva = idiosy

There are two such ends of human life, reaching where a person can be free from all sorrows and attain ultimate peace, ultimate bliss. One end is "intelligence" ( and the other is "idiocy".

Enlightenment is that end where a person understands the whole world of life. His understanding should be so developed that without being internally affected by the problems of life, he should be engaged selflessly in all his life duties including their prevention by finding their rational solution. On the other hand, stupidity is the end where a person becomes completely oblivious to all the worlds and problems of life, as if they are not there.

To say in simple words, where "Buddhtatv" is the ultimate development of understanding, whereas "Chutiyatva" is the sterilization of understanding. It is the glory of the holy land of India that great men born here have hoisted flags at both ends of life. Those who reach the end of Buddhahood may be few in number, but in the case of "Chutiyatva", we have the ability to lead the entire universe. Perhaps there are some such divine elements in the air here itself that almost more than half of the population here are easily available to "chutiatva" without any special effort.

Means more than half of the population is living in such a hangover which does not go away even after pouring buckets of cold water on it. Ignoring the real problems, they remain busy in such upheavals which do not bring any positive change in their lives and their future generations. All efforts to wake him up have failed. As if a drunkard is lying in the drain and whose mouth is being licked by dogs, but he is kissing "Apsaras" in his dreamland, oblivious to all this. However, after the intoxication of the drunkard comes to his senses and he is also ashamed of what happened. But this moment never comes in the life of a person who has achieved chutiyatva. Because his whole life is spent in a hangover.

When tourists from outside come to visit India, the thing that fills them with wonder is that how are these people so happy even after living in such hellish conditions? They consider it to be the influence of yoga and spirituality inherent in Indian culture. Foreign tourists think that due to the influence of yoga and spirituality, the people here have almost attained enlightenment. This is the reason why these people are so happy despite living in such extreme conditions. And understanding this, those Westerners ( tourist ) also go out in search of a guru.like Dera Beas Rishikesh, Haridwar, Kashi and don't know where they wander. While they don't know that those whom they consider to have attained "Buddhahood" ( Enlightened) are actually "Chutiyatvadhari" ( Biological Stupid)

[um]

@AA

Nothing and nobody has an intrinsic value and/or meaning of its own.
Whatever meaning and/or value it has, has been given to it.

By You, by anybody else.

You and all others are responsible for their attributions ...AND ... have to reap the consequences, as it certainly affects one's life.

The world is inside yourself.
What you see is made by you.

The honorable participator Spence, would condense it into one single word
subjectivity.

Nobody can escape it

If he could he would be robot and at the end of life robots cannot stand court ... hahaha.

[um]

@AA

I do hope it is clear to you that what you wrote is YOUR investment in life and that you have not fallen into the mental trap that what you see is just what is there and you are a neutral observer, that can was his hands in innocence..

[AA]

Our and this blog's objective should be to establish a rational and scientific conscious society by eradicating superstitions, hypocrisy, evil practices, unscientificness and misconceptions spread by religious and spiritual organizations in the society.

[AA]

"It is impossible for religious and spiritual people to be fair and logical."

[um]

@AA

I do hope you will see that what you wrote are just your attributions .. there is nothing objective in it.

It is allright that you take that sunjective point of view but please do not make it seen as an absolute intrinsic attribute

[um]

Hmm...

I do miss another post to AA before that one of 12:38 PM

[um]

@ AA
>>It is impossible for religious and spiritual people to be fair and logical."

There many scientist of name and fame that prove you wrong.

In the field of their academic work they operate according the guidelines of science and as far as attributing meaning to their personal life they might be believers .

Not everything of human interest can be dealt with in a scientific and logical way ... probably the most important things of human life cannot.

There is no need to know about God drinking coffee but that doesn't mean that thinking about god, has to be ridiculed.

What you wrote about establishing a society .. makes me think of the missionaries that went out into the world to bring the gospel .. the good news ... and later transformed into tyrany .. the inquisition.

That would be degrading science into an believe system an new religion.

[AA]

Science had proved religion and spirituality wrong many years ago. Our religious books were proved wrong on the same day when a scientist told that the earth is round. That are we who are insolent that we are not ready to give up the wrong facts taught by our religious books and fraud gurus.

[AA]

All the religious books and present (past)saint or guru tells about Karmic theory and also mentioned 84 lakhs jiya joon (Births ,creatures). But the Fact is about 12000 years ago human learned farming and settle down in villages or small towns. And also About 100000 years ago present form of human beings ( Homeo Sapiens) comes in existence . And book's ,Guru's tells about Billion's of birth of human being and their karmic accounts. What A Joke

[um]

@ AA

It is my personal understanding that humans differ from other living creatures in the capacity to re-create their original, natural habitat.

That means, adaptation to changing circumstance. As can be seen in the Inuit living in polar climate and our astronauts, that circle around the earth. No other creature is able to do so.

For that adaptation all sorts of tools are needed. Not only physical but also mental. Culture being artificial nature demands for abstract tools in order to survive in that culture as an individual and as a species.

Religion as you perceive it is an tool and each and every tool can be used but also miis-used in many ways. and history informs us about that use and misuse.

Whether religion is true or not in its totality or in its parts, is of no importance but it has an impact on the way one lives, in the same way as political and other ideologies do.
There is nothing true about and political doctrine but believing in one and fighting another shapes the world at large .

Finlay, people, humans as individuals and as a group had to deal with the spontaneous alteration of the awareness and consciousness by some of their members of the tribe. Dreams, nightmares, hearing voices etc etc. If these shamans or medicine men came up with solutions the tribe was looking for the shaman was lifted on the shield and honored. Naturally they were interested in developing practices to recreated these mental states and they did find them in the use of plants and other manipulations of the body of which meditation is just one form.

Overtime these simple understandings of the workings of nature are lost in the imaginations of modern men seeking an grip in science.hoping that they will not lose their inner balance

That said ... I am not interested in any religion, let alone what people do to give themselves pers[perspective in life ... that is up to them and they and nobody else will have to bear the fruits of their visions, their way of life.

Whether god exists or not, whether that can be proved or not, is immaterial to me but it definitely effects the live of people.

[um]

>>What if religions are wrong and there's nothing to find?<<

What if religions do no longer serve a purpose?"

Before we had the religions of today, there were so many, they are all gone and forgotten.

Before the political powers of today, there were so many, they are all gone and forgotten.

Were they wrong?

If you are no longer sitting comfortable in your old chair you will find yourself a new one.

Atheism, science etc are the new chairs.
With the decline of Christianity and eventually all other religions in the west, the culture and the position of political power will also decline.
Lack of values will make a society valueless.
Christianity has been the source and roots of the birth and bloom of western culture, society and power.
Without and common shared value and meaning system, that is like the mortar that glues stones together to form a building, that building will collapse.

[um]

And ...

Religions do not disappear because the can be proven wrong by any body, nor because of the behavior of the clergy, and/or its followers, but because a religion becomes of no use

Those who think they can or are called to do so and think of having a mission in life, they might better have a look in the mirror and ask themselves...what made me think that I have that power ...that I have that mission.

[AA]

the so-called men of religion invented myths and superstitions to keep the innocent and ignorant people in darkness and to go on exploiting them.

[AA]

There is only one power behind everything (religion, spirituality ,Saints ,RSSB )in this world and that is money.

If people stop donating, then this religion, spirituality, God, heaven, hell, Sachkhand will end in ten days. Then no one will sit on the stage and give long satsangs (discourses).

[um]

@ AA

You may state that but in those days that many of these religions saw the light nothing of what you point at was there.

Religion, whether you like it or not, is an cultural tool, use by the masses at large to sove their problems of everyday.

The same as political ideologies, they are just their to solve the problems of the society.

And yes .. in any ideology there are people to be found that use that ideology to the advantage of themselves and at cost of others .. but an ideology is not invented for them.

It is all quite simple foader for psychologists and sociologists

[um]

@ AA

Whatever people do, and think is for selfish reasons, physical mental and even spiritual
besides the rare exception to prove the rule.

Even exposing what is dear and near to others, is done for selfish reasons..

Have an honest look in the mirror AA

[AA]

Religion and spiritualism goes hand in hand with superstition and fear. Religion and supretilisn prevents progress and suppresses man. Religion exploits the suppressed classes." As religions, however, they are prone to be hit by accusation of superstition, exploitation and irrationalism.

Science is a tool that helps to solve everyday problems. Religion and spirituality create fear in people and take them away from rationality.

[um]

@ AA

that role you attribute to science was once in the hands of religion, to be found in monasteries and in the head of monks. Our western culture is build upon the fruits of their labor

Their days are over and within 50 years Christianity will be a memory in western Europe.
Not by your effort and not because the officials are proven of misconduct and crime but because the majority of people are not longer interested.

You and your friends highly over estimate the import of what you have to say in this matter ...nobody is interested .. it just doesn't matter as you message never reaches anywhere and anybody.

That said .. have no hope that the situation will ameliorate for the better ... as scients are human like the priests

And .. never forget soon you wil be face with the situation tha YOU .. YOU have to BELIEVE them /// BELIEVE THEM ON THEIR WORD ...as. what the put before you will be more difficult to understand and digest by YOU then any religious or spiritual text.

You wil and probably ARE already a blind believe of science.

[um]

@ AA

If you think that science can deliver what religion could not, you are fooling yourrself and others.
and ...
it will make you mentally weaker and more codependent than ever before.

Stand on your own legs, do not expect any other human being to help you, to carry the burden of your own life.

And ... have more coffee.

[AA]

Being selfish, protecting our life, all these qualities have been instilled in us by nature, there is nothing wrong in it. This is a kind of survival skills.

Spreading superstition, fear among people in the name of religion and spirituality , it is like a mental disease.

[um]

@AA

Did I say or suggest that there is something wrong with it?
But you are talking here about OTHERS and in doing so you make it seen as if you are OUTSIDE ..but you are not.
You to are spreading superstition and fear among people, because YOU have problems with making up your own mind.
It is not up to you to judge what others do with religion, as you just speak in the wild without knowing what others do with religion.

You need not to believe and I am certainly the least to tell you what to do but you come here to preach your gospel in order to feel better.

But you do not need any of us to make up your mind.

And again with religion disappeared from the surface ot this earth NOTHING wil change as humans will find other means and use it for their advantage ... science has allready become the new religion and you already an blind believer

[AA]

If we remove God, religion and spirituality from our life, then nothing will change in our life. If we remove science from our life then we cannot imagine a better life. Science is not a religion, it is an effort of man to move towards truth against superstition.

[um]

@ AA

Sigh ....

Once people were at the mercy of priests now at the mercy of scientists.

YOU, AA...YOU will not be able to know what they tell you and why, unless you are at THEIR academic level.

THAT ..AA makes you and all the rest of us into BLIND BELIEVERS

There is no reason to believe that THEY , the scientist, have YOUR welfare at heart.

[um]

@AA

Delve for a month into the world of diseases and their cure

The Doctors, the pharmacists, the insurance companies.
Have a close look at the side effects of medicine
the relation with the prescription of medicines and medical interventions
The way how medicines are researched in India to get an approval in the USA etc.

Hahaha ...then ask your self what is better to believe or to fall into the hands of these scientific trained people ... hahaha

It will not be the first nor the last medic that refuses to go to an hospital to have a personal cure, knowing what that industry is all about.

If you have finished and swallowed that, delve into the world of growing food, and preparing ir for you to be found on the shelves of the supermarkets. Read the labels and find out how you are slowly but securely are poisoned..

Do not fool yourself AA .. inform yoyrself before you speak

[um]

@AA

If we remove God, religion and spirituality from our life, then nothing will change in our life. If we remove science from our life then we cannot imagine a better life. Science is not a religion, it is an effort of man to move towards truth against superstition.

Yes I can AA ... those few tribes that live without the so praised and worshiped religion are able to survive as natural being, they still stand on their own legs ... now see what has become of you ... can you survive and look after yourself as they do?

Soon in the near future we will see that one state will be able to sabotage the energy and data currents for a longer period of time .. in that silence and darkness, ... think again ... and realize what humanity has done to itself

[AA]

Forming an opinion in life, then sticking to it like a dogma, proving others wrong, forcefully refuting their views, this is what religion and spirituality teach.

[um]

@ AA

And have you any idea what the different states are brooding over in their biological and other strategic [war] laboratories.

The consequences of AI technology for our day to day life, not to speak of the use in the decision making of the pentagon and the machines they are developing.

Hahaha you will pray on your knees .. oh lord give us that world back in which we foolish believed in you.

[um]

@ AA

>> Forming an opinion in life, then sticking to it like a dogma, proving others wrong, forcefully refuting their views, this is what religion and spirituality teach.<<

Do you think that is the exclusive privilege of religion and religious people??

hahahaha ... have a look in the mirror AA

[AA]

I don't know about America. Indians have seen a very perverted form of religion. Religion kept Indians away from education for thousands of years, except for a special caste group. The lower caste people were not allowed to enter the temple, they were deprived of reading the scriptures, worshiping etc. Small caste class, Indian farmers did not have the right to education for centuries. Then the British came to India and they opened the doors of education for all. Religion and spirituality existed in India for thousands of years. If there was some improvement in the lives of Indians, it was because of education and science. Religion had made life hell for Indians. Religious superstition has exploited Indians as much as there is hardly any other example in the world.

[um]

@ AA

Yes I know ... Some time ago I spoke with a lady of dalit background and she explained at great length and in great detail what has been the fate of her caste for centuries until this very day. I was painful.

Later in the UK, visiting an family of the same background I was informed about the political consequences and the relation of Dalits en masse choosing to vote in certain direction, becoming Buddhists and choosing other religious movements that preach not to be build upon god given caste system

Against that background of yours whatever I wrote must make no sense.
I do realise that you and most others have come here to write about these things and nothing else.. I have decide to restrain myself more and even remain silent as much as possible.

[AA]

What human beings have suffered in the name of religion, superstition and spirituality is hardly due to any tragedy of nature.
Man needs a better life instead of God, religion and spirituality and that better life can only be given by education, science and knowledge.
It is very difficult to understand why human beings need God, religion and spirituality.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AA
You wrote
"It is very difficult to understand why human beings need God, religion and spirituality."

The need arises for a number of reasons and experiences, external and internal.

The fact that belief in God and active practice of religion is associated with living 5-7 years longer, and higher ratings of happiness and satisfaction with life suggests there are internal mechanisms hard wired for the practice of faith in a supernatural God, and in those who teach their religion's philosophy and practice to others.

The subjective experiences of spirit, divinity, the immediate presence of a divine being, divine inspiration, peace and contentment in the lap of God , are precious treasures in a changing world of suffering. As long as those experiences persist, if some are hardwired for it, or if everyone has that built in capacity, belief in a divinity that is beyond the grasp of intellect is very likely to continue, for those who have such experience, our can experience by practice.

Efforts to objectivily understand such experiences, such as meditation practice, and some neuroscience, as well as the study of religion, religious practice, psychology, etc, rather than denigrate belief, demonstrate how that belief functions for the predictioner, and reflects internal processes, indeed helps coordinate and integrate the personality and perception into a wholistic view that includes respect for all and a deeper connection with reality..

The fact that such beliefs include a whole host of culture bound labels and legends that have no external reality, symbols to help explain and support the internal practice of faith, is the cause of a great deal of misunderstanding. Even those faiths that proclaim these as descriptions of non-corporeal, internal, psychological, subjective realities. In practicing and experiencing for oneself, one then understands the subjective and personal reality of these experiences of transcendent experience.

So why does one need such? Because it's is an internal matter, and that is subject to conditioning, education, the external symbolic forms are going to be different. They will need to be suited to our own psychology.

Am atheist culture will develop practices of faith in reality. But those practices will still yeilds the same overwhelming experiences of love, peace, integration, and experience of some things that defy words or description. The human mind has many parts that can be experienced but cannot objectively nor adequately be explained. The full exercise of those latent abilities, their full development is nothing less than the full development of the human being. Symbolism, culture bound allegory are just means to help us understand and refine our own personal practice.

But the effect of that practice on human psychology, physiology and health is largely a matter of established scientific fact.

Hence, it will continue so long as human beings continue to be constructed as they are.

But the culture bound symbolism and legends, whether a religous explanation or an Atheistic one is simply a matter of what appeals to the individual. Whatever inspires sincere practice and honest effort to acknowldge our personal situation, and make sincere effort towards progress is a good practice.

As for prejudice, misunderstand, and all the negative consequences, this happens any time a person takes information and applies it out of context, generally to other people who think differently than they do. That happens whether the information comes from a religious or scientific source.

[AA]

If a child reads Spider-Man's comics and sets out to find Spider-Man and thinking he is real, will he be able to find Spider-Man? Similar in the case with some religious books which we read and considering them to be real, we set out to find God. Will we be able to find God?

Religious Books and spiritual Masters ( Guru) claim the existence of God and soul, but when someone asks them for proof, they say you will have to find by yourself. The one who claims, the responsibility of giving the proof also falls on him and not the one who asks for the proof.

[um]

@AA

There are many treasure hunts going on ... both physical, mental and spiritual

Nobody will ask a treasure hunter to proof, that the treasure he or she is after, does exist

All forms of treasure hunting have some characteristics in common:

[1] One has to BELIEVE the treasure does exist, that it can be found and that it is one's reach ...even if decades of hunting by reputed hunters, has not brought forward any result

[2] One has to INVEST in the hunting, without having a proof that it will yield result.
History books are full of life long huntings,

That said if one is not able and/or willing to BELIEVE and to INVEST and does not have the STAMINA, one is better advised just to stay at home and have one's coffee and discuss with others how stupid it is to go for treasure hunting without proof in advance. ... hahahaha

[AA]

If someone claims that he is a dentist and posses dental degree and if someone asks for proof for that , then it will be the responsibility of the dentist to provide proof of his being a dentist. Instead, dentist send the asker on a treasure hunt and asked him to find the evidence by himself.
There's no treasure hunt like Spider-Man

[um]

@AA

Dentists are not treasure hunters ... hahaha

In the days of the gold rush, whole villages where constructed to make it possible for the gold diggers... even brothels ... hahaha.

Those who BELIEVE , can and will INVEST will do so and the rest will be keft behind, in the village, where everybody profits from one another.

Religion, is in the village.
In the village is also the rumor of the treasure.
Many have heard but few will answer the call
Leave the village to the villagers, get their stuff together and of after the treasure.

Even after some miles the noises of the village are no longer heard.
No paper is available where columnists and journalists debate about the existence of the treasure, and the mental state of those that bellieve in it and worse go after it.

hahahahahahahahaha ......

Even if a whole life is spend in such an endeavor, live was worth to be lived.

Hahahaha ...AA,.... I know of all these things you write about, they are like these modern glues .. if you touch them you are bound and keep you bussy the rest of your life.

In a sense it is also a quest, but of an total other order than the treasure hunt I am refering of.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AA
You wrote
"Religious Books and spiritual Masters ( Guru) claim the existence of God and soul, but when someone asks them for proof, they say you will have to find by yourself. The one who claims, the responsibility of giving the proof also falls on him and not the one who asks for the proof."

From my comment above...

" The fact that such beliefs include a whole host of culture bound labels and legends that have no external reality, symbols to help explain and support the internal practice of faith, is the cause of a great deal of misunderstanding. Even those faiths that proclaim these as descriptions of non-corporeal, internal, psychological, subjective realities. In practicing and experiencing for oneself, one then understands the subjective and personal reality of these experiences of transcendent experience...."

"The fact that belief in God and active practice of religion is associated with living 5-7 years longer, and higher ratings of happiness and satisfaction with life suggests there are internal mechanisms hard wired for the practice of faith in a supernatural God, and in those who teach their religion's philosophy and practice to others."

You may read some of those scientific findings in various places..

https://www.livescience.com/62809-religion-longevity.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/better/amp/ncna812376

https://www.vice.com/en/article/nzpk9w/how-prayer-and-meditation-changes-your-brain

[Spence Tepper]

Another study...evidence that belief in God is a thing. :)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5442174/

[AA]

@ um

If my comments make someone laugh then it is a good thing whereas spirituality always mentions sorrow and bad deeds. I feel beautiful if my comments make you laugh ha ha haa , best wishes..

[um]

@AA

In the village you are with all the others that live on and from others.
Some do play that game of taking advantage of others more elegantly than others.

Those that are on their quest outside the "village" are on their way alone.
The can not take advantage of anybody nor can anybody take advantage of them
They only come into the city incidental to buy new stock of coffee

In the village religion too is a means of taking advantage ...
Everything that is used in that village is to take advantage of
And everything that is done too ....hahaha

[um]

@ AA

Oh ... I forgot to whish you good luck and succes with the denouncing of this human characteristic in general and that of religious people in particular.

Do not forget to read some history books .. many have gone that road before you.

We have seen here iconoclasm of decades and decades with endless sufferin.

[AA]

what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists?

[AA]

All religious beliefs are based on imagination, it does not stand the test of logic.
For example, all religions consider God to be omniscient, He knows the future of every human being. God has decided the future of every living being even before it is born, so is the living being or soul independent?
Suppose, I go to a shop, I will go there and buy cigarette or toffee, God has already decided, so am I free?

The concept of divine justice is also present in all religions, one will bear the fruits of his deeds, the concept of heaven and hell has been fixed with good and bad. If God is omniscient and also the creator of destiny, then man is not free to do anything. If a person is not free to do anything, then he is not a participant in any kind of punishment.
Imagine that God wrote in John's fate that he would die at the hands of David. One day John and David had a fight and David killed John. Will David be the part of divine punishment or did David have any other option but to kill John? He simply obeyed the will of God. Just think, God first writes a wrong deed in the fate of a human being and later punishes for the same deed, can such a God be called Equitable?

If God knew before I was born that I would grow up to be a rationalist and question his existence, then did God give birth to me to throw me in hell? We talk about the justice of God but cannot believe in it ourselves, if we believe in the justice of God then the sense of justice disappears from this world.

[um]

@ AA

Have coffee, and more coffee and just observe your own actions, thoughts, feelings.

How they are born, exist and disappear.

What form they take and how that form is generated.

Next time you get angry .. see if you were free to become angry and see if you can create at will whatever feeling you want.

Look back at you past and see if there was a path by which you came in the present and see how that path and the events on that path has made you to be the person you are now.

Realise how you are conditioned by your body, being male or female, the family you are born in, the social status of your family, the citty you are born in, the friends, the events, the education etc etc etc .., tnese things have conditioned you to be who you are

There is free CHOICE there is not a thing as free will.
And...
And you have to bear the consequences of your choices.

God, if there is one has created the laws of the game. He created electricity. Scientists made it available to mankind. You can use it and reap the fruits .. fruits that can be sweet fruits that can be bitter

If you were not presented with these theological issues and if you did not consumed them, you would not have known about them and certainly nowt write about it in a blog.

Now you have eaten from the forbidden fruit, you have to digest it ... hahaha

Put a finger in your mental throat, vomit and empty your stomach of all that has been told to you and you have swallowed .. have afterwards a glass of clean water .. and think next time whether or not to put everything that is laying around in your mouth. Find out what is good for you

[um]

@ AA

You are a witness, witness of yourself and the world you happen to experience.
You did not bring yourself in to existence nor the world.
Both you and the world operate according what humans call "the laws of nature"

You can call the hands etc that you find to be attached to your body as "YOUR" hands. Hands that are able to make coffee, lift the cup and drink it. But at the same time you have no idea what the hand is all about, why t has that form how it is operated.

Forget about god, these are all things you have HEARD, learning language and the concepts of your society and culture. These are all hollow concepts. Hollow as they have no reality base in your personal experience.

There is no got that has any interest in what you do or don't do .. that is told by people
You have swallowed why they said, your parents, your teachers etc even when you disagree with them, still your mind is full of their concepts ... you are ruminating their mental food.

But .. YOU ... you happen to be who you are, in the circumstance you happen to be, its is up to you what you do, how you spend your life. .. it is your life and nobody knows if there will be another precious thing again as THIS LIFE ...and YOU .. YOU have it for free at your disposal.

Do not waste that precious gift on staring at others

[AA]

पर उपदेश कुशल बहुतेरे । जे आचरहिं ते नर न घनेरे ।।

One who does not know anything about himself, is preaching to others. First looking at your own condition, circumstances, examining your own knowledge, then spew something out.If you feel like vomiting on yourself after you read some good fact, then you need to consult a good psychiatrist. Looking at your condition, it seems doubtful that you are going to improve. Best wishes for good appetite.

[um]

@ AA

You might perceive what I write in the way it suits you.I am not interested,

I am just speaking of getting rid of the endless amount of information you and others of course, all of us have swallowed, like kids that had to empty their plates before leaving the table.

If you become how little you know based upon your personal experience, you will understand.

If you are a male, you will not know what it is a women, what it is to be pregnant and what it is to deliver a child. Whatever you know of these things are empty concepts not based upon personal verification. understanding what it is all about from within.

This is just an example to show you that most of what you know is of that quality.

You are a slave of the outer world, a slave of snake oil sellers and their promises, be they scientists or clergy men.

Calm down have your chai, do not anger your self about that stupid GORA

[um]

@ AA:

"There are many expert advisors, but few people follow their advice."

That is correct AA
but the question is .... WHY ... they do not listen.

And for the record .. I am NOT anybodies advisor ... and .. certainly not yours AA.

Wittgenstein, the German philosopher wrote at the end of his tractate;
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."

That AA is a formula a formula that can be use in many other ways
to give an example:
Do not go where you are not welcome.
Do not advise people that have no ears to hear
etc

[AA]

@um

"Calm down have your chai, do not anger your self about that stupid GORA"

May I know who is this "GORA"?

Is this GORA means Brian?

Gora means in indian language is "white man "

[um]

@ AA
I was called so ... hahaha