RSSB guru makes light of wife-beating and sexual assault

It amuses me, along with disturbing me, when devotees of Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), an organization with headquarters in India, excuse Dhillon's bad behavior by saying "At least he hasn't been convicted of a crime."

Well, that's a pretty low bar for a guru who is considered by the RSSB teachings to be God in Human Form, possessing divine powers. One would expect that a guru who is supposedly so exalted would behave at least as well as a decent ordinary person would.

But as you can read below in a comment on a recent blog post by Simmi, the RSSB guru advised a woman complaining her husband beat her and sexually assaulted her daughter to "compromise" with him.

That's abhorrent. It's disgusting. Horrible advice. 

And this isn't the first time the RSSB guru has been accused of making light of sexual abuse. I wrote about another instance in Gurinder Singh Dhillon ignores sexual abuse of a child. Here's an excerpt from what the person who observed this instance said to me.

What BBJ [Baba Ji, Gurinder Singh Dhillon] did was not only heartless and ignorant. It was a crime and advice of the worst sort; as any mental health professional will tell you pedophiles do not quit. Pedophilia is a psychiatric compulsion with an almost non-existent rate of “cure”.

 

This is only one example of the many instances of disastrous advice BBJ is always anxious to espouse.

 

At least Huzur [Charan Singh, the previous RSSB guru] had the humility to preface the common sense advice he’d reluctantly give when asked, with the declaration that he himself was no expert in family matters and can be heard on audio tape admitting to be a poor example of a husband and parent.  

 

BBJ however fancies himself an expert in all things, above the law of man and blithely gives the most jaw-dropping and disastrous advice imaginable. The fact is BBJ's “advice” has caused satsangis I know personally the most painful consequences imaginable.

 

Here's the comment from Simmi. I fixed some typos and included definitions of a few words in brackets.

That is really funny thing about mix marriages. I got married with my husband. He was very much into this organisation. GSD [Gurinder Singh Dhillon] was like his God. I remember to support him.

l used to go with him to so called satsang [spiritual meeting] on Tuesday evening and Sundays morning, also so called Seva [volunteer service] regularly. All the preachers used to emphasise on how lucky we were that we got GSD and he is GIHF [God in Human Form].

I was very impressed initially and started believing in it...got initiated. Whenever GSD used to come, it was like OMG, l found the God. Many years l followed his meditation with my husband. Our life was just like around RSSB [Radha Soami Satsang Beas] people. No social and always talk about GSD and how lucky we were, and everything happening in our life because of GSD.

One day in his satsang, one lady asked him that her husband used to beat her up and did wrong with her daughter. Instead of telling her to go to police and leave him GSD said it is all karma. You should talk with your husband and make compromise. I was shocked. How can he give this advice to a mum whose daughter was sexually assaulted

After this l started to see my life more closely and took my RSSB glasses off. l realised RSSB is a big cult and my husband and l was this Cult member. We were cut off from a normal life and wasted many years. I spoke with my husband and said l don't mind if he wanted to continue but l refused to follow GSD any more.

After all this, many other GSD frauds came in the light and my husband also realised that how big cult RSSB is. He also gave up eventually. He was in depression for few years that he wasted best years of his life behind this organisation.

It's been 5 years now..we studied more our birth religion Sikhism and found Sikhism is a real and first Sant Mat [path of the saints] as Sri Guru Granth Sahib has teaching of many saints. We are not very religious but we do our meditation as per Sikhism teachings.

We are very happy now and living a normal life. Whoever is in RSSB, this is the time. Come out ASAP. It is a very big Cult and you are wasting your life. Smell the coffee.

Comments

[Donald Hermes]

If you can't love the Master then hate him as much as possible for this also brings attachment .

[um]

>> RSSB guru advised a woman complaining her husband beat her and sexually assaulted her daughter to "compromise" with him.<<

It is as simple as stated here!

He advised the lady.... nothing more and nothing less

He did not for a moment say anything about the husband nor his behavior.
He is not presiding a court of justice, he is not an unpayed, unappointed judge

People will always try to make him part of their worldly problems.
As said, he is neither judge, nor psychotherapist, counselor of any affair related to this world. He is a spiritual guide.

Nobody goes to a carpenter to complain about and seek guidance relate to a loaf of bread

Not that it matters
But in the RC church they have the sacrament of confession, where people can confess there often heinous sins and ask to be forgiven ..FOR GOD, Many priest know about heinous crimes, yet they are not allowed to speak up and they do not.

Nobody tries to make priest seen as justificators of criminals and crimes.

[um]

Suppose he would speak up in public.

If he did, it would be seen as bad practice to come to a premature judicial etc. conclusion, without seeing and examining the accused and truth finding of what happens and just be satisfied with the accusation.

In a bar in the weekend people are free to act as freelance, un-payed and un-appointed presidents, gurus, ceo', scientists or any other expertise and debate their opinions with one another feeling that they are in charge and their opinions matter ... but ... that freedom is not given to him.... luckly so.

It would be a shame and a disaster

[Spence Tepper]

It's helpful to see an accusation. But it can only be preliminary If it isn't followed up with investigation and verification.

Otherwise it's just indulging in rumors.

And when that is about the conduct of an individual, unverified rumors become just another form of slander, rather than the basis for a deeper look. So information can be helpful or harmful, depending upon how it is used. Sometimes the witness didn't hear all the details or the context, or they missed a word and got it wrong, or their own biases entered in. It can happen. It has value, but only as part of the effort to establish truth, which requires investigation and corroboration.

The MeToo movement served a useful purpose to bring a real issue to light. But the standard for Truth when judging an individual still must be met in order to establish guilt or innocence and avoid slandering the innocent. That also protects the integrity of the accuser, and prevents those who claim to be helping from, in fact, enabling. That's hard work but maintains a standard that protects everyone, and honors everyone.

Nearly 40% of our nation believes Trump's and others lies that the election wasn't legitimate. The purveyors of the big lie understand that if it is repeated often enough, in many different forms, by many different people unverified, to flatter people's beliefs, people will believe it. And they won't want it questioned, investigated and confirmed or proven false.

The lesson here is the psychology. When the standard for Truth no longer requires verification, people no longer acknowledge inconvenient facts when they are brought to light. And so the content and results of 100+ court cases mean nothing to them. They want to believe the lie. They actually hate the truth.

It's interesting to watch otherwise rational Atheists grab onto accusations and rumors without any interest in verification when they favor a pet grudge. Doing so doesn't lower the standard of truth. It lowers the integrity of the one publishing accusations as proven fact.

The standard of truth is entirely tossed out the window. And so each sincere testimony reprinted just becomes another unverified and slanderous comment. I don't think that respects all parties involved, neither the commentors nor the readers nor the one accused, nor the one who publishes these without responsibility to investigate and verify: when it is used for a political agenda.

Truth has not been established, and that alone teaches a very bad lesson: that if you gather enough unverified accusations, presto, you have truth. You don't. If an accusation is important, do the work.

When all the negative rumors are stacked up as if they are proven, when the only thing they prove is the necessity for investigation, and the glaring absence of it, to serve a political agenda, that's where sincerity is twisted into propaganda, integrity is lost.

I think they call that a witch hunt.

[um]

@ Spence

Sant mat ...[the teacher, the teachings, the student and everuthing related to them what they do, think and feel] ....That MAT, that path, that way of life, ....is O N L Y ... to release the soul of the mind and to take it to its own home.

It is NOT meant to give any sort of psychic help to anyone ....
it is NOT for finding any truth at any other place in the world....
it is not to be used for any other ulterior motive...

EXCEPT to take once own soul back to the lord.

Sant Mat, is only to be used as a path leading back to where we belong.

THIS, is the creed, to wich these guru's are committed, against this background of commitment, they are not free to act other than they do, and are their reactions to be understood.

One should not ask questions to the wrong person. and then get frustrated that the answer doesn't suit one.

Worldly matters are to be handled by worldly experts, authorities etc.

This path, this way of life, is not meant by any means to change the world for the better.
Christ came with a message to find the kingdom of heaven inside oneselves, Those that have STOLEN his teachings, the priests, the theologians, sel these teachings to the masses in terms of charity, betterment of the world etc etc.

Again and again .. do not look at these gurus and their teachings have a close look at the followers. Find out what THEY have in mind, what they are after and by doing so you will understand many a thing.

With the thousand people try to draw these teachings and teachers in to the world so that THEY can in they end take hold of it according THEIR wishes.

Hahaha ... these things I came to understand by drinking much coffee, looking at crows, far, far away of the affairs of this organisation ...these devoot devoties are on a collision course to make the path impassable for what it was set up.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
Yes, the purpose of the Teacher of Meditation is meditation.

But it's not a mistake to ask a good friend any personal questions at all.

There is nothing wrong with it.

We have in Baba Ji the most Zen of Sant Mat masters. He is always redirecting the questioner, always placing the full responsibility on their shoulders regardless of what is asked.

From one perspective, that of encouraging meditation as our sanctuary in all matters, this makes sense.

If you know that is his job and therefore all one can expect of him, that eliminates most questions.

But still people ask them. The need for some personal comfort and practical direction is necessary.

However, you and I weren't there. If we were we might understand what happened better.

Here is where the practical power of Atheism in insisting on evidence and sensible practical advice without reference to the supernatural also makes sense.

The woman's safety and that of her daughter is foremost.

Even before discussing meditation or efforts to work things out, her safety and that of her daughter comes first.

That means police may be needed, legal intervention may be needed.

We always, on principle, want to work things out directly. But it isn't always possible. In cases of violence and rape those claims must be taken seriously.

Baba ji could have offered her and her daughter physical protection and legal assistance. Or asked members of the audience who are professionals in the field to come forward to assist. Maybe something like that did happen.

When someone has a heart attack on a plane the attendant asks for a doctor. They don't ask the passenger to meditate.

[manjit]

There is an online RSSB Gurinder Q&A video which imo highlights Gurinder's lack of skill or wisdom in discussing such issues with people living in abusive relationships. I briefly commented on this on the RSS forum at the time:

https://groups.io/g/RadhasoamiStudies/message/207183

The problem really isn't Gurinder's abject lack of emotional skill, wisdom or compassion; we are all allowed an opinion, however patriarchal, oppressive and wrong it may be.

The problem is that his symbolic position as an infallible or "Perfect" religious leader lends a undue or unearned weight or credence to his often cretinous views, and that rather than his views being seen as what they are, the views of a culture and concept-bound hyper-patriarchal figure lacking emotional intelligence & empathy, are instead justified, rationalised and distorted this way and that to get them to fit into some sort of mis-representation of what his original meaning was so as to make it sound as if he's saying something really wise, profound, helpful or loving etc. You will see it here in this thread from the RSSB religious apologists.

Much like Charan Singh's vile, ignorant and deeply lacking in both wisdom and compassion comments about homosexuality published in an official RSSB book, just because somebody wears a turban and is chosen by their elder relative to sit on a stage, it is beyond ridiculous and absurd to debate what these dudes say as if it has any more intelligence, wisdom, insight, compassion or love behind it than any random passer by in the street.

Hollow gurus, hollow religion, hollow concepts, hollow blind believers and and hollow apologists lead to hollow arguments, hollow wisdom and, worst of all, hollow love and compassion.

[manjit]

PS - Thanks for sharing your experiences Simmi !

[Appreciative Reader]

"Hollow gurus, hollow religion, hollow concepts, hollow blind believers and and hollow apologists lead to hollow arguments, hollow wisdom and, worst of all, hollow love and compassion."

...Indeed. Well said, manjit.

It's very ...unsettling? to see the whole range of excuses paraded around by ...what else can I call them but apologists, to somehow defend GSD's completely reprehensive "guidance", in the other thread as well as this one.

Did GSD actually say that? Skepticism as far as simply that much is probably not unwarranted. Might Simmi have misheard the exchange? Or, let's not mince words here, might she be misrepresenting things? (Simmi, if you're reading this, we're with you, all the way. We kind of do this thing, examine things threadbare, is all this is.) But all of the other excuses that have been trotted out already, both in the other thread and in this one, it's kind of ...amazing, really. How the hell can anyone defend softpedalling around pedophilia and wife bashing? And how can anyone defend this grotesque mountebank sitting there presuming to guide people on what he hasn't the first clue about?

um, I take your point that RSSB is a path home. That is, for those who've bought in to that particular flavor of woo. So that, like you wouldn't expect advice on how to repair your car from a chemistry teacher, or you wouldn't, as you say, expect to buy vegetables at a baker's. Fair enough, that much, within the parameters of that particular woo. But given that, why the eff does this chemistry professor, who has zero expertise of car maintenance, and who doesn't even intend to help repair your car, sit their farting out his "advice" on car maintenance? Why the fuck even do these asinine Q&A sessiions at all, about any subject other than merely their particular meditation? Can't he simply say, when other questions are asked, "Sorry, that's something I've zero clue about, and in any case not what I'm here to address. Ask me about what I know, and what I'm qualified to speak on, and what I intend to properly advise you on. For the rest, go talk to professionals with expertise in those respective fields."

----------

One only wishes that Simmi hadn't staggered on from one set of loony tunes dogma to another. It's a bit like a drug addict giving up one drug and then finding refuge in abusing some other toxic substance. Still, anything's better I guess than this completely insane set-up, where the victims of domestic violence and child abuse are asked to somehow get along with the perpetrator --- always assuming Simmi's right about what she heard there, and what she's reported here.

[um]

@ AR

There was once a book by the title ... games, people play

The so called path of the saints, is an narrative to be campared with other narratives like democracy.

They are there to organize one's life.
They all come with their own rules as to how the game has to be played.

The way you answer makes me think of a person that has no interest in football yet goes on to talk with people that love the game, telling them what is wrong about the game and for that reason about themselves.

Nobody has asked or forced you to play football Ar ...I guess at least ...

I just do not get I why you use such derogatory language. In my ears it speaks of you, and all sorts of feelings inside you and not ayt all about football ... hahaha

[Spence Tepper]

"Instead of telling her to go to police and leave him GSD said it is all karma. You should talk with your husband and make compromise."

Maybe he meant both. He can pick the prison but you get the car and house.

Did he say don't go to the police? Or just talk with her husband and encourage him to voluntarily go to the police?

I'm not sure it's what we think. We'd need the exact words.

[um]

It is simple ...

The very fact that anybody doesn't like the answer, doesn't mean there is something wrong with it.

It is strange how unqualified people, show up in the media to speak up about presidents, scientists, mystics etc etc, have to operate according them.

I realy do not get it that in daily talk shows interviewers with little more knowledge of the world that the daily news, interview policy makers about wars, economical policiets and got knows what.

If I had ro be in such an position I would never end up in a talk show.

This misery started 1n 1968 when students started to tell their teachers what to do and what not, when children started to tell their parents what education is.

It is so unnatural

[um]

@ Spence

Spence you try too to draw him in the field of the world, and and use the measures of that world, to judge him.

You must know, and have heard that they never interfere with the affairs of the world.
You hust have heard that each and everytime they visited The USA the audience was asked not to ask worldly questions, maters of family etc but only questions of sant mat and meditation

Ubfortunately .. that is the only think that people do

[Appreciative Reader]

Not sure why you think I'm not interested in all of this, um. You've known me awhile now, and know what I'm interested in; why would that change, just because I happen to be disagreeing with your take on this? That doesn't make sense. How does the one follow from the other?

-----

And what am I being derogatory about? Do you mean my describing GSD as a "grotesque mountebank"? But then, doesn't your own argument actually point at that?

Your argument actually makes sense --- within the parameters of RSSB woo, that is to say. But the conclusion that follows from that argument is not that GSD shouldn't be criticized for giving dicey advice on worldly matters; the conclusion that actually does follow from your argument is that GSD has no business soliciting questions on worldly matters and giving advice on worldly matters.

And that conclusion holds, regardless of Spence's skepticism about Simmi's account (that, to be fair, I do find some merit in, not specifically in her case but generally and as a matter of principle).

GSD really shouldn't be holding court, pontificating on worldly matters, not unless he actually imagines he's a PLM imbued with all-knowing wisdom on everything under the sun.

-----

Sorry, um. You mustn't mind it, old friend. But I'm afraid I can't find myself able to agree with you on that. And given how serious is the allegation, I felt it right to clearly voice my thoughts on this.

[Spence Tepper]

"Honey, it would be better for your own rehabilitation if you turned yourself in today. But you can shower first if you like. I can speak to the police from the police station, from my parents house or your parents house. Which do you prefer? We can compromise.... "

"Would you like me to help you to the police station, take an Uber, or should I just call 911? Would you Ike handcuffs or gunpoint with your arrest?
Your choice sweetheart."

[Spence Tepper]

'Speak to your husband and compromise' could mean a lot of things, including the way a restraining order is requested, the way an arrest is conducted, which bank account all the family funds will be transferred to pay for the new house she and her daughter will be living in, and who gets to call both parents first, as well as editing the letter sent to all family, friends and employer informing them of the husband's behavior.

[Appreciative Reader]

Come on, Spence. You're back to waffling away now.

Would anyone in their right mind speak about this detail of "compromise", when advising an abuse victim about what to do about the abuse? Does that sound remotely plausible to you?

And in any case I find um's argument compelling. GSD shouldn't even be giving any kind of advice on this at all, given the authority his words carry with true believers, and given that he has zero expertise on the subject ---- in all these worldly matters, he should simply ask people to go to actual experts, at least unless he himself actually believes he's a true PLM who is possessed of wisdom about everything under the sun.

[um]

@ AR

If you would not use certain adjectives I would not react and just read your contributions for what they are.

How often have I tried to explain here what games their are played when people go to Q&A sessions. Just do read my reactions again.

What interests do you have for yourself AR in RSSB?

[Appreciative Reader]

Fair enough, um. Agreed, intemperance in language adds nothing of substance to one's thoughts and to one's arguments. I don't particularly see why I must needs pussyfoot around GSD, but I agree that that might have been worded more gently without taking anything away from the content of what I had to say.

As far as the games in the Q&A sessions, I ask again, why even hold these Q&A sessions, other than to do with matters of mediation and maybe also administrative matters relating to RSSB? You yourself present a compelling argument why that shouldn't be done at all, why GSD shouldn't presume to speak on these things at all. Unless that is he believes he is PLM, and possessed of some supernataural wisdom on matters he has no conventional training in.

What is my interest in RSSB? The same as my interest in all things spiritual. To see which traditions look promising, and to actually try out, experientially, the methods of those that look genuine, as far as I can make out, given my own constraints. There was a time when, thanks to discussions on here, I'd seriously considered trying out RSSB meditation (always assuming they'd have me, which I realize is not a given). I didn't, at that time, given my own constraints in terms of time, consdering the practice I already follow. And after that, GSD's shenanigans --- which, even if they might not turn out to be illegal per se, are without doubt of questionable morality --- completely put me off RSSB. But I continue to find the premise of RSSB very interesting indeed, and after all there's more to RS than merely RSSB, so that GSD's personal venality and greed, while it does invalidate RSSB, but it does not invalidate all of RS.

You're right, um. I'm not an "exer", and do not share the close personal bond with RSSB that some of you do. But it isn't as if I'm scavenging on here for carcasses to desecrate. I assure you my interest is genuine --- even though I find myself increasingly skeptical about these things, far more so than I used to be five or ten years back.

[Tata]

GSD had a horrible relationship with his wife. She stayed separate from him as much as possible. She rejected the RS faith as well and followed Buddhism. He tried to buy her off with money but that ended up killing her. She would definitely tell you to leave RSSB ASAP as well.

[Dungeness]

IMO it's very dubious that GSD made remarks condoning sexual or
physical abuse. Neither is it likely there were hints of such abhorrent
views either. To suggest otherwise without an exact Q&A transcript or
audio replay is unconscionable.

As others stated, an RSSB master's primary role is to offer spiritual
rather than legal advice. Re: the latter, he may not say anything but
instead comment only positively and afflrmatively on the former. It's
reported a policeman once asked Charan Singh to bless bringing a
suspect in custody to court. Charan replied that Dera was a place for
mercy and not justice.

[um]

@ AR

This is sometimes a miserable medium ..it wood be much better to see each other in the eyes, have some coffe and talk

I cannot advice you and I will not but many times when I answer to your messages , I am reminded of what I wrote long ago.

You have to walk the path of the logic mind to the bitter end, it is your path.
Nobody will know how long it will take you and where it will lead you.

The choice fot a path is a personal thing and it motives are to be found INSIDE the house not in the streets of the world.

Even if it would be possible to make you see and prove that the path of the saints is a perfect path, you could not walk it if it didn't appeal to you. As said, the pull must come from within.

You see, AR I cannot say anything about this path in terms of good or bad, nor about the status of its teachers and teaching. I have never known what a master is or not and just for sake of convenience I would use these words in order to converse with others.

When I came in contact with it it felt as coming home.

He has to sit there and make himself available to seekers and disciples. It is his duty he cannot escape it. It is up to those that come forward to ask questions to be responsible for their questions. He can as best as possible place these questions within the framework of the teachings and that is often not that simple and causes also of answers that many people just can digest.

You judge him with the standards of society, your education etc, I know these standards as well as you do, but discussing the "game" of sant mat I use another set of standards. ... and yes .. these do often conflict with the other standards , to say the least.

I am mentally reminded of what I did put here before, the discussion with my dad about the cramped faces of the monks of the college I went to school. If a monk does not understand the background of celibacy, living up to these religious and spiritual standards easily become a mill stone around their neck. MCS would say that if you pour water on fire [ sexual drive} you will create poisonous gasses and if you pous oil on it you will soon be burned.. It took me more then 2 decades to understand from within why mystics make such an fuss about sexuality.

The pressure upon Sant Mat to adapt to the desires and standards of the newly developing global culture, having cut almost all its traditional roots, is enormous.
In that light I do look upon him.

Let me add to this that he is not that much of a problem to live with but his army of staff officers ... hahahaha ... without blaming them they are not cut of the same wood ... hahaha ... anyway it doesn't matter neither to me as it should to you./

And yes .. i do take you serious, do not worry

I would say .. stay away from everything spiritual for a while, go out for a walk and have your coffee ... in the end the mental mist will clear of its own accord.

A path has to be there for YOU and YOU are not born to be for the path.

[um]

@AR

Apath, NO path has to give you anything
and ...
IF you have nothing to give to the path
If there is no heartfelt attraction to it
one is better to stay far very far away from any path as it will destroy you
Nobody is allow on a path without love and devtion
I know it on personal experience

Heed my words

[um]

@ AR

To live a proper, life as a human being there is ..NO ..need to believe in God or follow any path that exists in the world.

To drink coffee, and to enjoy it I found this simple truth

But if YOU CHOSE to do it do it with heart

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR
You wrote
"Would anyone in their right mind speak about this detail of "compromise", when advising an abuse victim about what to do about the abuse? Does that sound remotely plausible to you?"

Of course not. On the face of it, it's absurd. But I'm not so quick to accept any accusation as truth, first because anyone accused deserves to be treated fairly, with investigation. And second, because, there may be more to it. I believe their is.

Sometimes absurdity, levity, helps us step back from emotion and realize how far we actually are from the event. It reminds us that all things are not conspiracies, and a single view cannot have full perspective

Accusations alone, without investigation, become slander. In our better functioning news agencies they generally don't publish accusations until they can get verification with independent corroborating evidence first, because that is just being fair. Preventing the Trump syndrome where people believe any unverified claims that flatter their system of belief as facts
And worse, they are vehemently against putting forth any personal effort to acknowledge additional information, nor to seek out out. So, that approach has very little integrity.

If you are going to question the validity of Internal experience, as you should, most certainly similar criteria must be applied to accusations of wrong doing of you are serious about your committment to truth.

In news channels that do not function with a standard of journalism, any accusations are published as Truth without any attempt, first, to verify things from an independent perspective. So, they become little more than a gossip column. In a gossip column there is no actual interest in getting to the bottom of things.

[manjit]

To the above and future religious apologists who desperately seek to excuse a pattern of suppressive patriarchal "advice" due to a "lack of evidence", witnessed by many people on many occasions, in my first post above I linked to a post containing the following youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQg0MyUkhcI&list=PL9Zg64loGCGCFo5VXVb0KJrbiPhmOnGkK&index=2&ab_channel=RadhaSoamiSatsangBeas-Official

Relevant part is the first 2 or 3 minutes of the video.

Personally, I find religious apologism frighteningly predictable & boring, but each to their own pastimes.

[Spence Tepper]

I think there are really three conversations going on here.

1. How should any decent human being respond when someone asks for their help and reports physical abuse and the rape of a daughter by her father.

2. What actually happened in the incident that was related in this post?

3. How does this reflect upon GSD?

It is possible we can agree to some degree on item 1.

But right now we cannot complete item 2. A real effort at getting independent verification is required.

And therefore item 3. remains unknown and, in so far as this post is concerned, is beyond any hope of agreement because all that is needed for an objective opinion is missing.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manjit
This is a great video. A woman asks specifically about abuse and domestic violence, and whether it is acceptable to leave the relationship.

Baba Ji says that in no uncertain terms he condemns any form of physical violence including domestic violence. This is missing from the post.

He says no partner should take advantage of a weaker partner, that relationships should be a 50-50 partnership.

He then goes on to encourage the woman by saying that love can cure many things, that love is a very powerful weapon and that we should try before reacting or acting out doing something we might regret.

He doesn't tell her she must put up with it. He condemns it. He suggests she can end it with love. But he uses the word 'try'.. Love is one option, but only if it works. Because he condemns physical violence.

He points out that moving into another relationship right away we may find ourselves in a worse situation. But he doesn't eliminate the possibility. He acknowledges she has that option. He suggests we should not act reactively but thoughtfully. So we should first try to work things out, so long as the abuse ends. He uses the word try, because it isn't our only option and it may well not work.

This condemnation of physical violence, domestic violence that Baba Ji states clearly, was missing from the post. And that is why getting all the facts is so important.

I would have added that police, the courts and massive publicity are also options. Just do them with love.

[Brian Hines]

Those who are defending the indefensible behavior of Gurinder Singh Dhillon, it's disgusting how the RSSB guru acted toward a woman dealing with being beaten by her husband and her daughter being sexually abused by him.

It's just about as disgusting to see the revolting excuses being made by you guys -- and I suspect it is entirely "guys," men, who are defending the guru -- in arguing that who knows if this really happened, and even if it did, Dhillon must have meant something different than what he said, and maybe he did something behind the scenes to help the woman, blah, blah, blah. Disgusting words aimed at undermining a truth-teller.

And also the other women who have told their tales about horrible behavior by the RSSB guru in Q&A sessions. I shared a link to the post where there's another first person story about the guru ignoring child sexual abuse. I've shared stories by a different woman who said that the guru dismissed her suicidal thoughts and feelings, basically telling her to suck it up.

The evidence is clear. Gurinder Singh Dhillon is deeply uncaring. He's the opposite of a loving spiritual leader. His attention, pretty clearly, is on raking in hundreds of millions of dollars by means that are at best unseemly and at worst illegal. Yet his followers persist in viewing him as a saint who can do wrong.

Those followers, by the way, are dangerous themselves. I regularly get messages from people who tell me about their RSSB experience or their experience with the RSSB guru, and say "Don't use my name. I'm afraid of what will happen if my identity is known." You know why they're afraid, Spence Tepper and other fanatical defenders of Dhillon? Because you guys are fanatical.

Sure, you'll deny that you'd ever physically harm a RSSB critic. But you mentally and emotionally harm them when you deny their story. And in India they could be attacked physically. It's absurd how you want other people to believe your tales of inner mystical experiences, but you deny the reality of outer worldly experiences that people relate about the RSSB guru's behavior in Q&A sessions.

I hope you'll spend some time considering whether defending a guru who makes light of sexual assault, wife-beating, and suicide is what you view as "spiritual." If it is, I'm damn glad that I'm no longer part of an organization that fosters acceptance of bad behavior by its leader. Oh, do I sound mad? That's because I am. I'm married to a retired psychotherapist who, at one point in her career, dealt with men who abused their wives. When she'd tell me how her day went, not sharing the names of the men, of course, I learned how nasty men can be.

So yes, seeing such behavior defended by commenters on this blog angers me.

[um]

@ Brian

It fact that it is disgusting to you does not make it disgusting.
You just attribute YOUR meaning and value to things and consider the as THE values.

You take yourself far to serious.

[um]

@ Brian

before I forget, ...
He didn't say word about that man an his actions nor did I.

You are angry because others do not agree with you because you consider your self as the norm.

[Trez]

This is interesting there's alot of Gurinder Singh Dhilion sevaders sent on here to do his dirty laundry by commenting on here regularly just to keep his ruined reputation somehow intact. Stop trying to justify his dirty hideous actions again.
Again, Shame on you all

No surprises here about some sick advice coming from sick Baba Gurinder Singh Dhilion. He himself has a rather shady past shall we say that he doesn't want anyone to find out about him

Gurinder himself was investigated in a child molestation case and was given a court attendance in Spain. So Sexually assaulting someone is nothing new to him

Also a visit Gurinder once attended abroad where he was over friendly with a young child and the mother wasn't very happy she pulled him away quickly. Everyone was shocked and bewildered and left Gurinder somewhat hiding his face

Gurinders on the verge of sickness, so his advice to others would be the same.
Do what you please as I do too and hope to get away with it, like you think you have Gurinder.

Nope you're EXPOSED

Theres alot of talking going on about so many going ons in the Dera in india beas at Gurinders mansion, there seems to be alot of women coming and going there all night for his private and personal needs. Strange...but expected from him, creepy

People have also talked alot about Gurinder at satsangs and his roving womanising eye doing a bit too much wandering around at satsang time.
Oh thats just so Pervvvyy for a Baba

Even playing football with children and getting over friendly with them, many a time. Grabbing and jumping on top of them too. Getting his hands all over them doesn't the sangat see what's in front of them

Now on the verge of Disturbing and sleazy

Wife beating is nothing, Gurinder is known to have taken his abroad and knocked her off for an insurance payout of millions by saying it was a medical emergency gone wrong

So he can't give any advice on that subject either

What's so Godly about any of this?

He's a known Sexual predator baba playing out his fantasys here and there.
Like others...

He should have been jailed a very long time ago!

let's hope he is in there with his other half's Asaram Bapu ji, Ram Rahim soon

Gurinder Singh Dhilion you're EXPOSED for us all to see what you really are today

Totally disgusting and revolting is what you are and that's what we are all hearing about him today

Get off that stage

You need help, get that head checked of yours

These are real articles of real people's lives

Yes get out of this Radha Soami and Gurinder Singh Dhilions SICK Sex Cult while you still can and STOP wasting your precious life

[Stay real]

Per RBBS, we need a contemporary guru who understands disciples' struggles of the times.
I can't imagine to courage it takes for a victims of domestic abuse to talk to anyone about theirs fears and struggles. Also, I can't imagine all they effort they put into compromising to protect themselves and their loved ones before seeking outside help. But I do know that they are constantly living in fear of the perpetrators, judgements from others, financial insecurity. Not to mention physical and emotional. And in this case spiritual insecurity.
For her to speak of her, her children's and her family in front of thousands of people is not only an act of great bravery, but also of intense desperation.
Anyone with the presence of mind can see her desperation, as Simmi did.
She deserved better guidance. If not from the guru, then from sevadars/organizers. In other domains of society, similar situations may meet the criteria for negligence.
A stage personality has to respond to questions with a degree of calculation in terms of impact on the questioners, audiences, the organization and themselves. Hence being mindful is essential. How a stage person responds to difficult or curveball questions should be prepared to be judged by the audience.
If solid advice can't be given, defer/refer to someone else.
In this situation, there was failure at multiple levels IMHO.

[um]

@ Sray real

Do not worry, this is the last stand.

The wold that has arisen from the globalization as no room for a narrative that streches out over a period of 4 lives.

I suggest that one day the keys of the dera will be handed over to the government and mysticism will withdraw unseen in te background and be replaced by spiritual convenience food ... mac donalds sant mat.... so do say where you can get your quick spiritual jubnk food

And that is all right.
Eavh population gets the rulers it deserves and the spirituality they are able too

[um]

@ Stay Real

In older days we had so called forest rangers. Nobody would ever see or meet them as their only task was to catch poachers.

Today hardly a day passes without some of the modern brand of forest rangers will appear on the national TV to pass his sermons about nature, presenting him or herself as managers of nature.

That seems innocent, these seemingly kind people that are in love with insects, flowers and birds, but they do realy believe that the have a calling. That they are called to manage the nature. The make me think of small children playing general, president, king etc.

Humanity could not stop itself destroying their own habitat, like wetting their own bed, now they think they can cure nature....all the time forgetting to search within their own hearts for what went wrong

The self aggrandizement puts what tirants of the past has done in the shadow.

[Spence Tepper]

Brian
Take a deep breath.
I'm not defending GSD.
You can watch the video Manjit provided to see Baba Ji condemn without any conditions domestic violence. A condemnation notably absent from your post.

No one is denying anyone's story.
Every story, especially an accusation, needs corroboration, so that we can all be together on understanding.

I'm really surprised that this needs to be said, because you know this.

No claim is defacto truth until there is some independent corroboration. This is the difference between slander and propaganda, and truth.

Just because you want it to be true doesn't make it true. But it might be true.

That is your own criteria for religious and supernatural claims: proof is necessary to establish fact for anyone else to believe it. But here, when the politics change, so does your objectivity.

Even that is entirely understandable. We all have blind spots.

And that's why we can have an open dialogue.

Let's try journalist standards of verification prior to publication.
That would honor the women who report such abuse.

If you do not know the journalistic practices involved we can review them here. It generally includes reaching out to the accused first for comment, like an email to RSSB asking specifically in writing for them to please clarify the Master's official position on the first steps to take when the home is no longer safe and violence or rape are happening. And then what to do when those efforts fail. How much risk does Baba Ji believe the woman or her daughter should take? Should they risk further violence or additional rape?

And then you share the gist of the accusation you plan to publish and promise to also include the full text of RSSB 's response. It's all so simple Brian.

In addition you poll readers for any relevant information they have. Manjit provided that for you. You can broaden the search to others.

I am quite sure we don't have the full picture.

Ideally, you post a less accusatory post indicating that the original comment was disturbing and you are doing some investigation as part of writing a post about the subject and the object.

It's not an abstract issue. It is a recurring event in all nations, including India. , Then in writing, giving an opportunity to have RSSB, specifically Baba Ji's position clarified before publication, and conducting independent inquiry for additional corroborating facts. Such as other documented statements on the same issue.

Rather than throwing someone's claim onto the fire you have constructed to emolate Baba Ji, as if that were the only utility of this accusation, let's work on behalf of the accuser to establish what really happened . A fire should have light, real light, not just heat.

[Spence Tepper]

I'm sorry Brian, but gaslight doesn't shed real light.

[Kranvir]

Dirty old man, wife murderer baba of beas. Shame on you, even your wife wanted nothing to do with you. You tried to pay her off but instead ended up killing her as a sacrifice. Was the insurance money worth a life Gurinder, was she just a small sacrifice for your sickly life of riches and freedom?

And those RSSB agents that have been activated like wasps under your fake gurus word, and your accusations of no evidence - there is no smoke without fire. Gurinder singh dhillon is a billionaire by money laundering and we all know money and a huge following buys favours in courts and voters for modi. Also, the accusation that Gurinder was ignorant of it all is laughable, when you know that nothing gets done without this narcissists, master mind baba's say so as he is regarded as the top of the triangle and god in human form by his sheepish followers who wouldn't hesitate to give their life for him - all because this bent baba promised them a life in heaven. Gurinder Singh Dhilon the truth about your sicko life are coming to light- you will join your rssb brother Ram Rahim in Delhi jail soon.

[Lurker]

Brian I think you need to know the sa RS yourself before you get your head so hot and let it burst on your church less blog. Get the facts straight you were not in any of these interactions so you have no idea what this simmi or Sonya or anyone else is relating to you from their experience of the q and a was true or not. Your questioner about suicide herself is now back on the path on a trip to Dera she has had mental issues throughout her life(so what her interaction was with the guru you have no idea) so I suggest you check facts before you blow up on Spence or anyone else. I read the messages no one is defending the actions of an abuser and the guru has himself said he condones violence or any kind. Geez Brian get the facts straight.

[Spence Tepper]

Let's go back to item 1. What would be your advise if someone asked? Here is mine..a script.
"John I'm leaving you this text message from a protected location because of what you did. Because we have been married for so long I'm willing to do online counseling with you, so that you never do this again to anyone, after the restraining order and custody is firmly established. You can help with that. That is the only way we will be speaking to each other for the time being. And who knows, maybe one day I'll feel safe enough to try living with you..That will depend on what you do in the days and weeks and months to come. But for now that's off the table. In the meantime, for the same reasons, I've contacted the police for a restraining order, my attorney regarding custody of ours daughter, and counseling to help me get through this with real progress. We both owe that to our daughter. I love you and this is the best way to help you, protect our daughter and all the people we know, and not further enable you... " The power of love is a powerful weapon,and most certainly the greatest leverage used with discipline.

And your script would be?

[Stay real]

Yes, Um. Times are changing.
Old days:
more tolerance and patience;
Fewer triggers and few were triggered.
Nowadays:
Less tolerance and patience;
More triggers and most are triggered.

We have to be mindful.

[tineke]

So yes, seeing such behavior defended by commenters on this blog angers me.

Posted by: Brian Hines | May 21, 2023 at 11:04 AM

Me too!
La Madrugada

[Ron E.]

I admire Brian’s attempts to continue to expose what looks like a typical guru cult. His writings help provide support for people who have left the cult yet naturally who still harbour thoughts of “What if I’m wrong?” Ex-members of cults and deeply conditioned religious beliefs – being human with all the desires to be right and special – will always have self-doubts.

Except those who are still deeply entrenched in their beliefs, beliefs which pacify and embrace all the perfectly human fears and insecurities of feeling to be a separate and lonely individual with all the ups and downs of life, and finally with the inevitability of death. It is so easy and human to accept beliefs that appear to offer something special, something that says there is more to your life than just the everyday routine of living.

Many of the comments here that attempt to undermine and provide ‘alternative facts’ to the reports that Brian highlights are simply reactions, a challenge to the very structures that people have assimilated in order to maintain the mental image of who and what they are – no matter how erudite and plausible they appear.

[um]

Reverse Paulinism.

St. Paul, started out as a fervent fighter against the new born cult of followers of christ and became later a protagonist of them .. he changed the iron chaine into the golden ones ... and with the same vigor he continued his life

The opposite does happen also
Once devoted followers of RSSB, of name an fame, propagating the new found cult to their fellow people in the west, lectured, wrote books, later turned around and developed themselves as prosecutors

In both cases they remained....ATTACHED ... to what they wanted to leave behind.

If a person wants to leave the cult he or she can only do so and be helped if he or she withdraws him herself on their own grounds.

One can only leave something behind for good, if the old attachements are given up and not been re[place by new ones

Faultfinding of any sort, based on correct facts or nonsense, is binding a person again

This just common knowledge

That said not all that are here using faultfinding as a prop to lean on are going through that difficult proces of letting go what was once near and dear to them.

[um]

@RON

Time will learn who in this time of transition are

the pharisees, scribes etc and their followers holding on to the old and who the new christ, apostles and followers, the brave one that gave their lives for their new born believe in the savior

Hollowers of the old that cried out ... Hang him

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Ron E.
You wrote
"Many of the comments here that attempt to undermine and provide ‘alternative facts’ to the reports that Brian highlights are simply reactions, a challenge to the very structures that people have assimilated in order to maintain the mental image of who and what they are – no matter how erudite and plausible they appear."

I'm sorry Ron, but as I wrote earlier, gaslighting sheds no real light.

Those ad hominem attacks weaken your case. But it's a common tactic. Because the full information necessary to prove your argument is missing.

We only have accusations at this point, and no one has claimed alternative facts other than the video where GSD says, "I condemn domestic violence."

Accusations are never enough to establish truth. It's a good start but a poor conclusion without verification. You would want the same were you the accused.

If you are serious about the best way to answer the woman's question, then by all means provide your own answer. That's of greater benefit.

The issue of domestic violence is important. Was this post merely to use someone else's pain to promote parochialism, by pointing to someone else's parochialism ?

Or can we raise the dialogue to offer something potentially helpful immediately to any reader exposed to domestic violence or who knows someone who is?

"Darkness cannot end darkness.
Only light can do that.
Hate cannot end hate.
Only love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King

So light a candle. What would be your advise to the questioner?

[um]

It is my understanding that women are humans like men.
That being the case, they must be both good and bad like men.

Against that background the question arises:
"why do we only hear from men abusing their wifes"?

As far and as long as women are human, one would aspect the same rapported rate of marital abuse by women.

WHY is that.

Of course now and then we are made to understand that a women has poisoned her husband and in rare occassions, shot or stabbed him to death.

But what about the rest?

Would it be that male abuse differs from female abuse?
That or judicial system is exclusively build on conviction of male offenses?

And ... might there be a relation between male and female abbuse in a relation and that just one gets noticed, as the system is build.

In psychology and these days also in medicine, this bias is found, in the developing of tests and in the treatment of diseases.

But who dears to speak up about women these days ... hahahaha
about the emotional and mental enslavement of men by their partners,
threatening to make them seen as women beaters

[um]

Herod is said to be emotionally manipulated by his wife to deliver the head of John

Only a couple a days ago I pointed at my knowledges of many a man with high offices in society were also manipulated to give up what was near and dear to them .. thei association with San mat

Afraid of their spouses they became denouncers of themselves.

Where is the court were they could go to sue their spouses for ongoing mental torture?

[Roger]

If you cannot speak kindly then silence is a valid alternative.

Unhelpful speech arises from an unhelpful mind state.

Unkind speech is divisive, demeaning, and destructive, and causes emotional and psychological harm to others.

Even if you lack awareness of it, it also causes harm to you, because it enhances the continuance of the unhelpful mind state from which it arises.

Unhelpful speech will always be an egocentric reaction to some THING physical, emotional psychological, or any combination thereof, that you don’t like, and therefore will always cause the mind to worry.

With the development of conscious awareness comes the opportunity to notice the urge to speak unkindly as it arises.

It provides the choice to act on the urge and spit it out, or the space to explore it in reflective silence to either transform it or let it pass.

[Ron E.]

To add to my previous comment, when I first became interested in finding out what it was that religions and other spiritual groups were declaring, one of my first inquiries was to ascertain the basics of belief and cult thinking (so as to hopefully not to fall into their trap). I was lucky, but many are victims of cult mentality. It is difficult to extract oneself totally so an experienced ex-member like Brian can provide some support.

Unfortunately, cult-like behaviour seems to be almost a norm in many fields of life today and is becoming more and more pronounced in extreme evangelical type religions – and politics, which Trump and quite a few other world leaders exploit in their followers.

What really interests me in Brian’s blogs is not the group he once belonged and the for and against comments, but to the many reviews he circulates on science, psychology, Taoism and Buddhism and his reports on the various books and sources of information on these subjects. Honest factual reports that have occasioned me to buy particular books.

Oh! and nice comment Roger.

[um]

Hahaha ... reading the above ... it seems that YOU too need to lean on others ... hahaha

[Roger]

Thanks Ron E.

The "ad hominem attacks" comment from the other person, I thought was a nasty "cheap shot" that compelled me to write my comment. Ron, your comments are always sincere and well thought out.

[um]

The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed:

‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.

Hahaha

[Spence Tepper]

If someone were to ask me about this, as a theoretical question, I think I'd try to put things into perspective with some detail, because I now believe the woman who asked this of Gurinder was asking for context to traumatic events. To understand her own trauma.

And those are deep wounds indeed. Wounds that often never heal. Wounds that left open or ignored, simply deepen and cause more harm and trauma with each passing year.

So they should be looked at directly, in context, and understood fully before moving on to any other issue.

1. The husband has committed a crime. Domestic violence, especially physical violence, but also emotional, psychological violence, is not acceptable under any circumstances. It is a violation of another person. A criminal act. One has stolen someone else's right to exist in safety and freedom just to feel better about oneself. One has stolen by violent means, the natural power of their spouse and daughter. The husband has replaced it with fear, anxiety, trauma, and terror.

By criminal act I do not mean that there are specific laws in every land. I mean that it is a crime, whether the law recognizes it or not.

2. The husband has already destroyed the marriage. It can't be saved because it is dead. Every excuse or effort to repair, heal, etc is treating a dead animal's carcass. It is enabling the very behaviors that committed the crime. It wastes everyone's time and accomplishes only delay or worse, more criminal behavior.

The husband has destroyed the marriage all on his own, by his own act. Unilaterally. No progress is made until this is fully understood.

3. Next steps are to build another relationship. Can that be done with the (former) husband? Maybe not. Recognizing the death of the marriage, the wife may, at her election, choose to move on. But if she sees hope in him, once she is outside of the house and safely with her daughter in a place to consider things more objectively, she may choose to work with her husband and professional support, to rebuilt a new relationship. But that will need to be on a completely different foundation, free of whatever in her husband committed the act. And getting rid of that will take time and both family and individual therapy.

2. No progress can be made until the full responsibility is accepted by the husband for both the violence and the death of the marriage. Fault for the crime and the death of the marriage will always rest squarely upon the shoulders of the one who commits that violence, and not on anyone else.

3. "You made me do it" is a false argument. Any effort to blame the victim is gaslighting, or to suggest that it's 50-50 responsibility is gaslighting, and that is another form of violation, committing another crime on top of the crimes already committed. When a wife tries to ease her husband's pain by saying "I'm sure I did things to add to the problem" she is adding to the problem by muddying the lines of responsibility. She is letting herself be gaslighted and further contributing to it out of ignorance. Lines of responsibility must be clear for even the smallest step of real progress to be made. The husband is 100% responsible for what he did. Until the wife realizes this, she is not fit to have dialogue with him, unless accompanied by a family therapist.

4. It is only when the wife realizes she and her daughter can live and thrive happily without her husband, which only happens actually doing so, that there is any hope of rebuilding a 50-50 relationship. That must be in a new relationship, whether that is with her husband or anyone else.

5. The husband demonstrates with his actions that he is making progress. That starts when he acknowledges he has committed criminal acts, that he alone has already destroyed the marriage and his full cooperation in any legal criminal judgement, incarceration, job loss, and public exposure and humiliation. He acts as if these are all gifts, because they pave the way to erase the old addictions and give away his stolen power, and begin to rebuild on a foundation of mutual respect. He accepts these as gifts because he knows and communicates that the crime he committed cannot be undone. He cannot undo the damage, and so any cost at all is a bargain. Therefore any pathway at all is an act of mercy. But that path can only exist when everything else from the past has been destroyed.

This is mercy. And so he is 100% at the mercy of his wife and daughter.

And that means that, for the time being, husband and wife do NOT have a 50-50 relationship. What he stole must be repaid, and that will be under the wife's new terms. And it can take years.

No, it's not 50-50 once violence enters the home. Not anymore. And probably not ever again.

[PS Paintal]

What a post....

I am really surprised that few people are seems recruited by RSSB to defend GSD and create doubt on Simmi. I guess that's why these people called Troll. Or someone said here that people get paid in UK £60,000 + per year...
These people are using all excuses (e.g. Simmi might misheard or intercepted differently) to discredit her or create doubt about her

Simmi was strong to come out here and told her story. Because of this trolling lots of people don't even come out to tell the truth.
It took more than 10+ years to get Ram Rahim, Asha Ram to behind bars as most of people didn't want to come out with evidence as feel fear about their and family safety

I am not sayong anything about Simmi or GSD..but as a human being l will say we should criticized GSD if he said this.
Simmi was sharing her personal experience and we should appreciate it

The big thing we are missing here and no one discussed or mentioned here..the last part of Simmi's comment

First She said..she has found the real Santmat.. Sikhism as Sri Guru Granth sahib has teaching of all saints and shows us the Sant Mat.
So RSSB is saying that they are kind of inventor of Sant Mat is wrong as Sant Mat taught by SGGS long before them..they are just coping it with some of their manipulation( though they started their organisation on the name of Sri Guru Granth sahib initially and deserted IT lately as Guru)

Second Simmi said she and her husband is happier than before and l guess they found themes closer to God then before. Previously they were in a circle where
there was nothing than GSD...where everything was around GSD...it must be really suffocating ( Guess this is the reason she called RSSB a Cult...RSSB fit in Cult definition)

She and her husband still do meditation as Sikhism and she and her family is happy

What do you need.. happiness, strong meditation and closeness to God
If you feel..you are on RSSB path for many years and couldn't find any closeness to God but still defending GSD wrong doing.... than you should wake up as you will not get this life again to try new thing..find your way out..

[Trez]

@paul

If its evidence you're after to do with Gurinder Singh Dhilions lifetime achievement of criminal activities C.V do yourself a quick Google search type his name and there are so many links there pick your fancy. It's all there, some his mug Sevadars have been told to by Gurinder to request to remove of the search engine by contacting Google services

I wonder why?
they were all there
He's a Disaster in the making one sick old Baba needing psychiatric help
Busted Baba of Beas more like

[um]

@ Spence

Membrance of my youth of family maters in the neighborhood of our aunt.

Husband comes home after a days toil in a factory.
After washing himself sits at the tabel to eat his hard earned and needed food.
Then he realizes the heavy silence at table.
He tirns to his wife and asks her what is wrong.
With an voice in minor she whispers inside mouth ..Nothing
Again, now with some tension in his voice, he asks her what is going on
She starts loudly lamenting ... our john ....
Before he even has heard what was going on, he grasps John and slaps him several times.

What is going on here Spence?
She USES her husband in order to use him as a stick to hit her son that had anoyed her.

Do not focus on the story, focus on the MECHANISM I want to put before you.
THAT is what is going on here .. using others misery, to hit another. .. or make themselves seen as better than they are, or better than others.

Even the small ones in my family will see this mechanism

[um]

@ P.sS. Paintal

>>So RSSB is saying that they are kind of inventor of Sant Mat ...<<

You might think so but you cannot find any recording or written testimony where any of the gurus following after Swami Ji in Agra, did say so.

What they did is telling that all mystic lineages after some time end and that then somewhere else a new sping of spirituality is found.

If you remember your days at school you might have learned that before the existing religions, there have been many, many others. Religions that were one day as important to the people as Sikhism is to you and treated as the begin all and end all.

All these major world religions are waiting the return of their founder.

THAT by itself tells that they do not have a living teacher.

An on the time i was stiilc;osely associated with that religious multinational I have never heard its teachers any bad word about whatever religion and its folllowers are even advise to keep to the religion they were born into.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
Family dynamics can be complex. There is a concept called shared ego mass in family therapy (undifferentiated ego mass, Murray Bowen) , where the family must have a hero and a villain at any time because they do not have the self-esteem to take full responsibility for themselves. So, wordlessly, these roles are shared each taking their turn. They praise one and malign the other. The words hardly matter. They are talking at the roles, not the person. It's symbiotic. But can become parasitic.

Who is the villain today? Who is the hero?

A good family therapist will help members realize they are enabling each other. By accepting themselves as full individuals they can escape this system, this family dynamic. Bowen noted it was particularly egregious in alcoholic families, where enabling and Co-dependancy all were symptoms of shared ego mass.

You see this played out in the way people chat online, a clue to the dynamics they were raised with. Esp when people criticize each other and our is obvious they are talking to their own image of their imagined adversary.

[um]

@ Spence
Yesterday there was an interview on TV with a restaurant owner that had got his third Michelin Star, the first in our country to get one.

They came to discuss the effects on the population of vistors of his establishment.

Besides the those that are honestly interested in high cuisine also a whole gamma of XXXXX people do come, like flies. It made me laugh as he refused to use the words that normaly used by staff members of these establishments to describe these people.

The purpose of the story ...
Long years in that branch is a better school to understand people then 6 years of theoritical schooling in Psychology at the university ... hahaha

[Spence Tepper]

And Um, you also see shared ego mass in the way people praise.

Whenever you see someone praise another for attacking a third person's character, that's shared ego mass.

Or when you see one person criticize someone as being unkind when they are actually defending themselves against attack by another, you have shared ego mass.

People gain self-esteem aligning with a group or system of belief, but it requires having an enemy and a hero at any moment in time.

So they are fighting windmills and giving their devotion to their heroes. It happens in politics. It happens in religion. And it happens in Atheism.

The escape is based on a self that doesn't rely upon its position publicly or in a group. A self that is based upon internal power, internal truth as the standard of self.

That can be found anywhere or everywhere. It isn't bound by politics or philosophy, religion or atheism.

It requires no villains nor heroes to be happy. And so that person wastes no time trying to create and recreate them.

[Moriati]

Hearsay and rumour - a dangerous combination in the hands of those with an axe to grind.

[Stay real]

Statement: "RSSB guru makes light of wife-beating and sexual assault." (The validity of the statement is a separate issue.)
Question: Should the guru or anyone make light of domestic violence and child abuse?
Answer: No. Never. Regardless of statement being fact, fiction or a hypothetical.
Of course it happens more frequently than it should. Some unknowing individuals may do it. But it should never be done by celebrated influential personalities who serve as role models for others.

[Kranvir]

There is no smoke without fire, we see time and time again in India how influential and powerful people literally get away with murder. They think they are above the law. He has carefully crafted relationships with modi, and opening up dera as a covid hospital was nothing but a publicity stunt to get more points by modi who in turn needs the deras votes. This baba, who began life as a sales man, now has weeded his way into political circles, in bed with influential Bollywood stars , and now trying to bring together other similar cults as a new world cult order with this bent fake ass baba on top of the pile . Its not too late to stop this tyrant now before he becomes untouchable and really begins to believe he is god.

Bottom line is if Gurunder is innocent, why doesn't he just turn up to court and prove it instead of hiding and running away. His actions clearly demonstrate the answer of GUILTY. Gurinder it is only a matter of time before you are caught.

[um]

@Stay Real

The question does arise:

"WHO decides what "making light of " is""?

We see daily on TV that those that are appointee to function in a given role, trained for that role, payed for that role, are questioned, called to account for what they do and told what they have to do, by people that have at best a training as journalist.

What I call the un-payed un-appointed, presidents, ceo's, popes, ministers etc etc.

Who is to tell a residing head of an religious movement, what he can and should say, without them having to carry the burden of such an role.

I makes me think of children, when ask to do something, start to argue and only are prepared to move, whenever it suits them .. buyt do these children carry the responsibility of education or are the just driven by their own mental ease?!

[Trez]

In kaalyug , Kaal Gurinder Singh Dhilion isn't to be trusted. He walks around doing as he pleases ruining innocent lives.
Not caring about anyone but himself he lives as a billion dollar bent Baba lying his way through his little pathetic life, even devouring his own nephews and any who come in his way.

The end is nigh for someone of these ethics as kaal will be destroyed very soon.

It's a coming...the big stick is on its way

[um]

@ Kranvir

>> .... and now trying to bring together other similar cults as a new world cult order<<

Hahaha that made me remember conversations I had with a good friend decades ago, when i was stiil associated with the organisation.

You see Kranvir, Most if not all religions in whatever form, are REGIONAL.
They are the fruits of a regional culture and only properly understood within that culture.

For long, long times these regional cultures were bubbles, little universes and there was hardly interaction between these bubbles. We could write the word Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam etc etc and we knew that it were the religions of certain regions and that was it.

Within these bubbles their philosophies, worldviews and religions were seen and presented as UNIVERSAL.

Then came the globalization .. people started to move around, came to know about other regions, familiarized themselves with these mental heritage of those regions

It shoul not difficult to understand that this would ultimately lead to aconfrontation od idea's as it is impossible or difficult to handle that there are more then say 10 "absolute" truths

Back to the conversation with my friend ... we came to the conclusion that in a globalize world with something of an globalize culture NO .. read well ...NONE ... of these regional cultures can survive

After all we cannot walk around in Indian garments all over the place due to differences in climate .. imagine me walking here in a men's dothi ...or is it dhoti ... hahaha

So we were convinced that sooner or later an kind of world religion would arise that is acceptable for all around the world and we were convinced that, with some adaptations, sant mat would be fit to take that role. What these adaptations are I do not want to discuss here .. it was just the idea.

I do write these things as they have nothing to do with Gurinder at all these are just historical movements, developments and they are never in the hand of just one person

You attribute that power to him but that is your lach of understandig of what is going on in the world at large

[um]

@ Trez

>> kaal will be destroyed very soon<<

Hahaha all major religions are these days talking about , "doom's day being at hand"
The orthodox ... Christians, Hebrews, Muslim, and may others.

That is because their regional bubbles are bursting and they are flooded with knowledge of these other bubbles and they have NOTHING prepared to digest that influx of, often conflicting information.

You seem to be brainwashed in some cult and scared also for what is to come, trying to find shelter in some local group that have sold you salvation.

Drink more coffee my friend

[PS Paintal]

@um

Regional bubbles burst..long time ago during Guru Nanak

Guru Nanak travel Nepal, Sri Lanka, Tibet, china, Iran-Iraq , Makka Nd many other countries

He was the person who collecting teaching of many Saints and come with the concept Sant Mat

Guru Arjan Dev ji compiled it in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and gave us Shabad Guru
Guru Gobind in the end added Guri Teg bhadur Bani and this Shabad Guru of Sant Mat completed

Sri Guru Granth sahib has everything which can be followed to get the salvation..This Sant Mat was latter hacked by many organisations and strated selling it in their packing RS is also one of them and their so called Guru become millionaire from this new business

If you compare the simple living of real saints with these Gurus' living you will get the answer

These are just cults making their fortune on the name of Saints' teachings

[um]

@ PS Paintal

With all respect ..Sikhism, THESE days, in THIS world AT LARGE is also an regional religion.

Please do understand that there is nothing wrong with the spiritual and ethical concepts that are to be found in the Granth Sahib .. I happen to have one myself .. nor with how the the average person incorporates these concepts in their daily life.

But I do hope you understand, that it is almost impossible for people outside the Punjab to understand and live these teachings in the cultural form it developed.

It reminds me of a day that some one gave me his turban to see how I would look like and the turban came over my ears and eyes ... hahaha

I also understand that it is difficult for the average Sikh to digest the idea that there are people that are seen as living masters the like as those of the lineage of Gur Nanak.

This is not the place to discus the ins and the outs of that contoversie

[um]

@ PS Paital

With some chai it should not be that difficult to see for yourself which of the existent religions is most suitable for being transformed into a world religion..

That is what I was pointing etc.

It has nothing to do with truth but with FORM, irrelevant form. Basically all religions and all spiritual schools teach the same as there is nothing else to teach. The problem is that more or less "orthodox" believers take the outward expression for the inner truth of their religion. And THEY are ones that will fight for their truth, they are willing to kill and be killed.

[um]

Now and then I read a couple of pages of "I am that" from Sri Nisargadatta. Yesterday I read this:

Q > Nevertje less you are aware of the immense suffering of the world?
A > Of course I am, MUCH MORE then YOU are.

Q > Then what do you do?
A > I LOOK at it through the eyes of God and find THAT ALL IS WELL

Q > HOW can you say is well? Look at the wars, the explatation, the cruel strive between the citizen and the state
[ and ... not to forget .... MARITAL ABUSE/ ... my adition as well as the uppercasts]
A > ALL these sufferings are man made and it is in man's power to put an end to them. God helps by facing man with the results of his actions and demanding that the balance should be restored. KARMA, is the law that works for the reighteousness; it is the healing hands of God.

Why do I bring this here up?
Not for its content and whether or not I do agree with it
But just to show, that what is called ..."Taking things lightly".... is NOT "privilige" of Gurinder Singh.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um:

Taking things lightly...Hm.
You see, if we say people should try to get along, that is 100% true. It's simple but truthful. Yet it can sound like taking things lightly.

But the horrors of how people treat each other can make that impossible. Those are very heavy things. They are also real.

Yet, each person, even the darkest criminal, has an internal life, conditioning. And the possibility of reform.
So, it depends upon one's perspective.
If you are the one who must deal with the criminal, then you may need locked cells, security, police, to protect and to allow for rehabilitation in a controlled environment where that can actually take place. Even then, you may not be able to help them.
How much effort "should" you expend? No more than your interest.

The wife has no obligation once the husband has brought violence into the home. The contract is broken. The marriage has been destroyed.

Therefore any new relationship must be by mutual interest in pursuing it. The conditions for that new relationship are 100% the victim's determination. But even that new relationship must be agreed upon by all parties. So in that sense the husband has the last say regarding his own participation. In this case, mother, daughter and husband must agree to the conditions. Otherwise, since the marriage is already dead, they are free to move on and form relationships with others.

But from a larger perspective, this is just people helping people.

[Spence Tepper]

And as for taking things lightly, I think that is actually good advice.

If the situation can be handled lightly, with hope, sentiment and helpfulness, then that's best. But not by ignoring, hiding,, suppressing.

The husband can make that happen by submitting to the sentiment of his wife and daughter.

He can lighten things by submitting to legal intervention,, therapeutic intervention. If he must go to prison he should go with the enthusiasm of someone who has been given the opportunity to help those he lives. Because, being in prison, he does his part to help his wife and daughter heal and move on.

So, that is also handling things lightly, with submission to the victims and cooperation with all the steps they require.

No one should hold secrets or hide from the law. When violent happens, particularly the rape of the minor it isn't actually in the hands of mother or daughter whether or not to call the police. It is their duty. And the husband's duty to comply.

That keeps things light.

Keeping secrets keeps things dark, heavy, and those don't actually heal.

[Spence Tepper]

The danger, I think, is in interpreting the advice to mean that the issue should not be brought out for all to see, that it should be kept secret, and the wife and daughter are obliged against their will, but by some norm, to quietly continue to live in fear, threat, anxiety and terror.

Here is where a spiritual teacher can be very upfront. If we do not handle our worldly affairs in a clear and purposeful way, meditation is impossible.

So, unless the wife and daughter do their duty to bring the perpetrator to full justice, meditation will not proceed. And similarly, if the husband does not submit to legal sanctions and comply with all support and interest in helping, it will be impossible for him to get anything out of meditation.

Here is the chance to handle things now, right now, directly and be done with them, so everyone can be free, to eradicate the toxicity of the criminal, so they and everyone come together as brothers and sisters. It may take a while. But let's not waste time.

So, no one should think that it is their karma to live in that nightmare environment. It is their karma to face that environment, understand its toxicity, and change it immediately without further harm, but through diligent action.

And of course, doing that, meditation will give the woman, her daughter and her husband each the strength to happily do their duty.

Just to be specific, so there is no misunderstanding. 50-50 means do whatever you have to achieve that freedom and balance, not give up control of your life to a criminal. Continuing to live in that environment, regardless of the criminal's subsequent behavior isn't 50-50. It's 100% criminal and zero percent victims.

[Spence Tepper]

You may ask what is the responsibility of the mother? Is it to continue to live under the same roof as her rapist husband? To keep her daughter in harm's way? No.
It is to bring her daughter to a safe environment and then contact the police. As the wife, it is her duty to call the police. No other person can do this. She must. Her obligation as a wife is just that. She does the most good for her husband, and takes full responsibility as a citizen to her community.

So, when we talk about he obligation of the wife, yes there is one. And she has an obligation to her husband, yes. But they are not what most people think, to further enable a criminal.

[um]

@ Spence

I do not want to go into the marital affairs of others.
I am sitting here at my desk.
I was not there when the lady brought her affairs forward.

What I do know is that people angered themselves about something based upon hearsay.

Personally I have no problems with believing that hearsay

What matters is HOW that hearsay is used here, to attribute meaning and value to somebody, that is not involved in the hearsay, has no public processional expertise as judge, counselor or otherwise, a human being, that has the role taken upon himself to teach the teachings of a so called spiritual path.

Whatever reaction he gives, cannot and should not be used to make any inferences about him as a teacher or his teachings., nor even as human being

TO show that his way of reacting is not that exclusive and unexpected for such an teacher, I did put here the reactions of Shri Nisargadatta, if well understood is about much greater misery inflicted upon people

Nobody is born to live up to the personal standards of others ... nobody .. not even gurus.

[Spence Tepper]

Finally, to answer a question, why is the police, legal and therapy intervention necessary when domestic violence has occurred?

Five reasons.
1. To protect mother and child.
2. To break any illusion of responsibility on the part of Mother and Child to police / manage / correct / change the criminal behavior of the father.
3. To separate the mother and child from the father physically, legally, and psychologically, so they can be done with that karma and move on in peace and hope.
4. To make the husband accountable to comply with the law, the therapist, the police, and not to place the full burden to supervise the husband onto the shoulders of the wife or daughter on top of the violations they have already endured.
5. To separate the father from mother and daughter so that he has nothing left but to reflect on his own behavior, his own addictions, his meditation, prayer, therapy sessions, journaling, reading about the effects of rape and violence on women, and all other remedies to irradicate the toxicity from his own self. It's all on him. And the Master within who offers help. Now the man can give some attention to that.

OK, I think I've had my say on this.

[Spence Tepper]

HI Um

I have chosen not to discuss Gurinder's role or to evaluate what he said because we don't know.

Instead, I've chosen to outline what I believe is the right course of action, since this issue occurs every day in every land. If any reader has anyone they know in this situation it is best to have a plan in mind, then they can provide useful advice, rather than advice that can actually work against the protection of mother and child.

Indeed, I think it is a little disrespectful to the victims to try and use their pain to emolate Baba Ji. But it also does not give full respect for this issue to make it an issue of defending Baba Ji either.

It is more important to lay out, step by step, what actions can be taken that are right, loving and effective in restoring an environment for meditation, by protecting all parties concerned.

So, while I see that you bring this issue back to Baba Ji, and that is certainly your right, I'm exercising mine to help clarify what right action needs to be in this case.

[um]

@ Spence

I am NOT saying a word about what the lady or the guru should do.or not
Please do understand that

[um]

@ Spence

But even YOU Spence you do indirect try to force him outside his role and make act according your opinions.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um

Every person will answer this question in their own way. I'm not suggesting there is a right answer. Therefore there is no force.

I am offering my take on what I believe is a helpful answer, when confronted for help with the trauma of rape and domestic violence by anyone we know.

I think it is far more important to be prepared with a well-thought-out answer because this problem is broadspread.

Just as I would suggest we all have CPR Training should we come in contact with someone having a heart attack.

It's not really about the Master. I don't think we respect the woman or her daughter making their situation merely fodder for judging GSD.

It's about what you and I are prepared to do.

[Spence Tepper]

Furthermore, if separation, incarceration, legal and therapeutic intervention and public disclosure are merely the minimum steps, the basics, that the woman makes clear to the husband before marriage, as in fact, part of the marriage agreement, as the non-negotiable steps she and her family will take should domestic violence occur, then all can be handled lovingly should the need arise. No one should be surprised by the necessity or activation of these simple steps.

What is surprising is the lack of clarity about them.

[Trez]

Grooming and assaulting seems like what Gurinder Singh Dhilion would like his Sangat to do too like follow in his filthy Baba footsteps

Perfect advice for a perfect master LOL

At this time Gurinder is the most disgraced Baba in India he's left all the rest way behind

Shamelessly and recklessly he still carries on his pathetic ways

He has no remorse or good character left but one of a hideous evil person with bad intentions to any

Needs locking up and quick
Mental asylum would be fit for purpose

[um]

@ Spence

>> It's about what you and I are prepared to do.<<

Well ... I am not here to directly or indirectly advice the guru or those that go to him.

[um]

@ Trez

>> He has no remorse or good character ...<<

Does he owe you something Trez?

Is he accountable to you Trez?

Does he has to live up to your desires, your standards?

Is he born to please YOU... Y O U.??

What have you ever done in your life that you can demand these things from others.?

[Trez]

@um duhh

As i said before, Please forward your lame questions to the great know it all Gurinder Singh Dhilion

Failed flop Baba

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
I understand. I would like to raise the conversation to what we should all be prepared to do, and to support and encourage when this problem enters our environment.

Do you have any idea that rape and domestic violence are wrong, and that they require significant intervention to ameliorate?

Or do you believe "It depends..."?

I do have very strong views about this, because, like Brian's wife, I've had to deal with this as a healthcare professional, specifically on a helpline to deal with this issue. These are non-negotiable minimum responses.

They aren't emotional reactions. They are interventions that experience and research have demonstrated are simply required to stop the harm and the trauma. Brian's statement just triggered a flood of memories of all the women I spoke with who had been abused or had their children abused, or both, and were in an unsafe, dangerous situation when they called for help.

Most specifically were the repeat callers who were unwilling to call the police or leave the house until the repeated rape and violence were so bad they finally were reaching out again for help, as if they had no idea that getting to a shelter and calling the police were minimum requirements for the first incident. And so their children were left with multiple scars, physically and psychologically. Most of that avoidable. Society can just establish safe shelter and legal, police and therapeutic intervention, separation from the father and his immediate incarceration as normal, immediate and minimal responses, not after a second or third incident.

So, Brian's statement just brought it all back. It's been a few decades since I was working on the helpline.

I guess I can't help but feel Gurinder's willingness to put it all on the woman's shoulders without at least acknowldging that such scars, without intervention, can get worse and worse with each year, and now the mother has a responsibility to her daughter to get her to safety... I think actually, I'm a little shocked about this afterall. And angry.

[um]

@ Trez

I am not interested in him and what he is doing .. I am reading in a blog and I do react to yours and others messages..

Who are you and what have you ever done in life that makes you think that you can piss on the heads of others in a public forum.

[um]

@ Spence

I do not want discuss these issues here on this blog as they are not at stake, for what I have to say..

[um]

@ Spence

He sits there bt virtue of his office, answering quesions related to the teachings he has to give out ... he doesn't run a public helpline.

People, you to, do what ever they can to make him participant and co-responsive for their life.

They want to use him for their own business

Understandable they give it a try .. but there is no reason he should give in.

He is not there to perform in the way that suits you Spence.

[Trez]

@um

The Devils dogs are always a bitting but the truth always prevails

[um]

@ Spence

Devils dog or not ... he is not YOUR dog nobodies else and he does not need neither deserves to sit up and give his paw.

If he is guilty of anything that is for the legal authorities to find out and take measures.
Personally I am not interested at all.

And I do not need his actions and the meaning and value , others think to have to attache to them, to make up my mind, or take any decisions.

And I certainly do not need him or his actions to make myself seen as being better than I am.

If asked .. I would say .. leave him alone, mind your own business, you are not born to be your brother's keeper and certainly not to act as an guru-mentor.

[um]

Sorry the last message had to be headed by ...@TREZ ...and not ....@Spence

[um]

@ Spence

I have gone through a life threatening experience and trauma myself as I reported here and he reacted by way of letter in the same spirit as is here at hand, and I have been sitting in the audience and witnessed similar cases be put before him and dealt with in the same way ... until this day his answer has helped me in many ways to see through other windows.

Then an now , I realize that they are not free to act as they possibly would if they were not sitting in that position.

I was seeking a spiritual advice and I got it ... and yes .. probably no counselor would give such an answer without running the risk of being fired ... hahaha

I am not a child anymore Spence ... hahaha

[Trez]

Radha soami stands for Radha and Krishna

If that is the foundation of Radha Soami which is Krishnas love for Radha then Gurinder Singh Dhilion has even betrayed his own religion and its teachings of love and respect for all women

How shallow of a little man is he

[um]

@ Trez

Things, facts etc are what they are
seldom what they look like
let alone how they are made to be seen

[ by people with hatred in their hearts]
[by misguided people]
[ by ignorant people that cannot stand on their own legs]

One thing for shure Trez you cannot make him sit up as your dog.
May be you will one day made to sit up and behave properly, as it behoves a dog

[PS Paintal]

@um

I am not saying Sikhism is the best though it is best for me
Sikhism was never a religion as from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh all have followers from all religions and they all called Sikhs

The main my point was Guru Nanak was the founder of Sant Mat and we can see this Sant Mat in Guru Granth Sahib today
Guru Nanak himself said his Guru is Shabad Guru and opposed any human Guru
Though we call all guru's but real Guru is Shabad Guru and Sikhs believe in this Guru
Again Sikhism is a way of living , following this way you can get the salvation

Also there are many other ways to get the salvation Sikhism is just one of the way to get it

It is very difficult these days to find which Guru is genuine or fraud..someone can spend whole life and then in the end found that his or her Guru was fraud...so the life is wasted
So best way is find the right way..Sikhism is already proved to be a right path so best to follow it. Again Sikhism means the way of living in certain way not by wearing turban and growing hair will make you real Sikh. GSD started growing his hair and wore the turban once got his post..l found it not right. One day his sons might do the same if one of them appointed by GSD as a next Guru
Also no one talked about the people who get high salary in this organisation. No question asked about the GSD's account details, farmers lands, GSD role in shall companies(there is a proof of his involvement). His refusal to show his income details, finding excuses for not attending court hearing, threatening to farmers/villagers. Involvement in big political parties etc
Too many reasons to doubt on his role

When someone sit on the high role and teaches about spirituality then he become public figure and people will ask about his personal life whether he follows the same what he teaches other or he does opposite in his personal life

GSD needs to open up to these questions..not talking about them and not let anyone ask about them will creat doubts.

You don't want to send your child to a teacher who himself/herself didn't have any qualification..if you can't trust a teacher for your children without looking a qualification then how can you trust a so called Guru who himself has shown this type of behaviour and involved in too many doggy businesses and doesn't want to answer anything
We talk about simple life and high thinking for a Master but here it is opposite..his life is Highly luxurious and mentality is that low... does he fit in any Guru's description? I highly doubt that

[PS Paintal]

I just found one old arrival which will show some of interesting facts and how sexuality is in RSSB

http://dineshchandrachinastory.freecluster.eu/2020/12/09/well-stated-criticism-of-rssb-guru-and-satsangi-behavior/?i=1