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May 24, 2023

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Hi Brian and also anyone who wants to comment politely on this, but I'm interested in Brian's thoughts.

Let's say you, me, us, we are keeping the possibility open that something/someone will appear to us in meditation. Right? Wasn't that the goal?

Request:
Get super real and think about it, how do you think such an experience may transpire?

Let me give you an example of how you may consider it to go down, at first in the outside, and then from there see how it possibly could translate to the "inside".
If you sat on your couch in the livingroom, and let's say a benign (unthreatening) being or ideally a saintly being manifests opposite you on a chair or a couch. Even if it starts as a soft light and then starts to look more and more like a being.... you would at the very least be shocked. Speechless. I'm going to say you're going to want to pass out from shock.

Ok so ponder on that a bit.

Now think of the space inside your head. You most likely have never tried to fit anything in there and it seems really big.
Perhaps One ASSUMES it is like how a dream fits... but really the space wherein someone can appear, is much smaller. Maybe is as far as the nearest wall if you are in a very small office. LOOK at that space by closing your eyes.

What if someone pops into that small space while you sit there.

The assumption is, it will be COOL if a RADIANT benevolent being with ALL the answers to life appear in your meditation.
But the reality is perhaps that it is a SMALL PRIVATE SPACE in there. And how many radiant beings can there be. Maybe you get a non radiant being. One that doesn't speak.

You have most likely NEVER had anyone there, and it would be WAY TOO CLOSE and really disconcerting if someone showed up unannounced, quite rude even. Even if the goal was TO GET someone to appear.
A dog never expects to catch a car.

Brian pse email me.

@ EI

After having read your message a couple of times it is not clear to me if it is a statement or a question and if it is aquestion what it exacly is what you want to know.

Please elaborate.

In the recent interaction between Um and that rascal Manjit, the latter posted a couple of links to folk taking psychogenic mushrooms. I always find it interesting following up such links. In the second one, a young woman (I think) shares their first experience with MMs when out camping:
“Not only did I experience an intense connection with all creation in the universe, but also had the feeling of having met an abstract version of God, that revealed itself to me as a felt sense of pure love. This event has profoundly shaped my understanding of the world and my trust in being connected to life in a profound and loving way”
Expansive loving connection - kind of summarises it for me.
Sounds a bit like what a lot of us continue to hanker after. This certainly would have piqued my interest 45 years ago, and still does.
The woman then goes on to tell their story of taking a much bigger dose in a controlled setting.
As I read it, in short, the experience involved her as a kind of recogniser/creator of the interplay of consciousness I.e. herself as the normal ‘I’ did not figure much in all this.

So profound loving interconnection with life and recognition of one’s ‘Self’ as both created and creator.

In my view this must be getting closer to what reality is about.

I’ve been musing over this for a few days in light of an interesting snippet on a TV show. Perhaps it’s fairly common knowledge? But the piece was about a University of Texas researcher who was developing AI that can read thoughts. Not memories (yet). They didn’t describe how it was done but I assume/guess it must be something to do with big data and brainwaves that crunched together give a real time thought equivalent?
Maybe David Lane can shed more light on this. I do remember he was talking about animatronic, AI gurus a while back.

Anyways, given the rapid advancement of AI and it’s potential for both ‘good and not so good’,
clearly we need to be mindful of the potential of this. Imagine being in the situation where an AI knows what you are thinking? This has massive implications: If it’s not there in a positive sense (and I’m calling it an ‘it’) and if you are totally identified as thinker and thought i.e. an isolated ‘self’, then…..

All the more reason to experience oneself as that which creates thoughts, and exists in that space between them, or so it seems to me.

Heh, typo in the title, that you might want to correct!

Although I guess an examination of people's superstitions, resulting usually in their debunking, might be "threatening" to those still firmly in the grip of those superstitions, so in that sense "Open Threat" --- as well as, in other posts and threads, more focused "threats" --- might actually be apposite.

As far as the psilocybin thing: manjit, if you're reading this: It would be cool if you would write in some detail about your experience, as well as the longer term effects of it. You already have, I know, but a focused discussion on this, where we might draw from your first-person perspective on this, and where you address some specific queries I have on this, that might be cool. Only if you're comfortable sharing such intimate experiences, obviously; and I'll understand if you're not comfortable doing that, beyond what you have already.

If you do feel able to this, then perhaps this Open Threat might be where we discuss this open threat to our sanity and/or our comfortably closed worldviews.

Hi Mr Um, I think if there's a q it would be, what are your assumptions / expectations or thoughts about how it would be when you have someone show up in your meditation inside. One of the assumptions for instance is that the being is showing up of their own volition, that they know what they're doing there , that they might set the tone for the experience, and that it would be uplifting /positive. Thoughts?

@EI

I just don't know what to write.
I still have no idea what you are after exactly.

Just for the record, very shortly after I posted the initial post here the screen on my phone completely died.
I was hinting at a very weird experience and found it weirder that my phone died just after I posted it publicly.

(Currently my phone is my only internet connection).

Tim Rimmer, I enjoyed your post.
I have read interesting things on the intelligence of LIVE mushrooms -have you researched that?
Also someone pointed out they taste "meaty", which means in a variety of respects they seem not unsimilar to other intelligent species.

A grilled portobello is a decent substitute for ground beef as a hamburger patty.
Shiitaki and oyster mushrooms are wonderful sautéed until brown and crispy on the edges. Morels are divine! Even the humble white button mushroom is yummy on pizza.

Hi El
Thanks
Re researching fungi/mushrooms I got quite fired up after reading Merlin Sheldrake’s ‘Entangled Life’. To me the whole book was championing how life is relationship and process rather than individuality.
Sheldrake talks a lot about fungal ‘intelligence’. He describes an instance where some spreading mycelium came across a patch of glyphosate and stopped, then went around it……
In regard to psychogenic shrooms he writes: ‘Psilocybin appears to take effect not by pushing a set of biochemical buttons, but by opening patients minds to new ways of thinking about their lives and behaviours’ (p.123).
My friend down the road is a great grower and investigator of fungi. He passed on some delicious oyster mushrooms a few weeks back - a nice meaty chew. I got him to do a mushroom growing workshop at the Community Garden in March - very well attended. Most participants took home a bucket of barley straw seeded with oyster shroom spore. Many have had a good crop. Secret is to keep the equipment/process really sterilised and beware the fungal gnat!
Lions Mane also looks to be a most interesting variety.
BFN

An dutch writer wrote an Historical roman around the Alcibiades and the decline of the democracy In Athens and as an metaphor for what is going on to day.

He restricts himself to the political arena but I would say that this process permeates ALL fields of society and started in 1968 and was initiated by the ant-authority movement

What we witness to today is the collapse of the western culture. and those that didn't want to adapt and adjust in free will, will be forced to do soo.

THEY have created themselves, the very misery THEY attributed to the authorities, for their own selfish reasons.

They made people that were no tyrants seen as tyrants and now they will get real tyrants ... this is how magic works..

He writes:
There are several symptoms that indicate the decline of a democracy. In the book, I attribute an old Greek theory to the sophist Protagoras, which states that each form of government has a positive and negative counterpart. For example, monarchy is counterbalanced by tyranny, aristocracy by oligarchy, and democracy by "ochlocracy" - the dictatorship of the masses.

I am convinced that we are currently experiencing ochlocracy in the Netherlands. An important symptom of this is that politicians are afraid of public opinion. There are hardly any politicians who have the courage to develop a long-term vision; no one dares to look beyond the next opinion poll. We saw the consequences of this during the COVID-19 pandemic. There was a medical emergency for which policies were formulated based on scientific insights. However, these policies were constantly adjusted under pressure from public opinion.

>> An important symptom of this is that politicians are afraid of public opinion.<<

Not only politicians ... hahaha
Not only in matters of Covid-19

Who has the courage to stand up to the extremist from the left and the right sode of the gauss curve?

And because nobody does .. these extremes are made seen as the new normal.

In the media the minoity rules over the majority and is in the process of brainwashing the majority

@ AR ....hahahaha

By chance, fate or whatever I stumbled on an youtube video where an Indian Astrologer was interview about global political development related to India and Hinduism

Having had a good cup of coffee I could not resist my curiosity and sat down to hear what he had to say.

Although my attention was time and again drawn to his disfigured fingers at his left hand I managed to sit it out.

WHY ...

Well he expresses behind the protection of astrology, an developing thought that is rising among Indian Hindu nationalists

[1] The abrahamic religions have had their time and will be pushed aside by growing logical thinking, atheism, agnosticism and in some places be replaced by older pagan religions
[2] In the same time, logical thinking, and atheism will come to a full bloom
[3] the world will split into two camps and will start a major war in 2030
[4] Russia, China will break down in many separate states
[5] Hinduism, which in his core is scientific, remains as it is acceptable to worldwide atheism and logical thinking as it will be able to answer questions that will satisfy the logical mind.
[6] India will take over the role of the number one nation for the years between 2030 and 2040
[7] The usa will lose that position after the 2030 war in the same way as the UK decline after the second ww.

Hahjahahah .. that these predictions about the raise of logical thinking and atheism would come from and astrologer made me laugh and laugh and think of you

[8] In the mean time he advised people to do their regular meditations as that would help them to go through this global storm that is developing.

Hey AR, how's it going my friend? :) You wrote: "As far as the psilocybin thing: manjit, if you're reading this: It would be cool if you would write in some detail about your experience, as well as the longer term effects of it. "

First of all, I should say I consider the "psilocybin experience" as endogenously inherent with the "natural" or stand-alone human body-mind's spectrum of possible experience (research on endogenous DMT, which is more or less identical to the psilocybin molecule, is supportive of this....literally so!). I have had many experiences almost identical to those of very large psilocybin doses many years before I had those mushroom experiences.

Psychedelics or entheogens are a just one of many tools to aid in the exploration of consciousness. It is my opinion or belief that they are the most ancient or primary of those tools, and came way before any "meditation" technologies, were highly influential in early religions, and possibly were causative factors in human evolution. It is certain they are the most powerful and direct technology, however.

It has been what feels like 4 or so years since I had an experience with psilocybin mushrooms. At sufficiently high doses, experience, or more correctly one's "consciousness" becomes infinite....you literally have infinite (or near enough to infinite) experiences, of infinite variety.

In a recent comment I left links to research from 2012 on the effects of psilocybin on brain activity, and I think they both mention Aldous Huxley's "reducing valve" theory of consciousness, where consciousness exists everywhere (or at least outside of the confines of brain activity :), and the brain merely filters or "reduces" that consciousness. Like a radio receiver merely picks up and interprets transmissions from elsewhere, all this jiggery pokery inside the radio receiver/brain may reveal how things get louder or quieter, they'll never reveal where the signal is coming from. This is an alternative theory to the current pop and simplistic theory that consciousness is "produced" by or an "emergent property" of the brain, neither of which has any scientific evidence to support it, nor even a semi-coherent model of how they could work; it is a matter of belief one way or the other.

This said, the very high dosage psilocybin experience does strongly suggest experience beyond the limitations of brain and mental filters and filters is not only possible, but likely, imo.

As there are infinite experiences within that space of freed consciousness, it is beyond useless to try to describe the experience with mere words and concepts...I know much you'll enjoy that sentence from start to finish ;)

But, ah, here is a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of one journey into the mysteries, posted on the RSS forum a few years ago......it is in response, if I recall correctly, to musings on the imminent end of the world, which I find of dubious utility, and the real subject matter is love, compassion and connectivity. And, yes, mystery!:

"A few years ago on a very high dose of psilocybe mushrooms, I had an experience that I have had countless time before "naturally", but it was somewhat different this time. The experience is one of shifting between countless different lives and scenarios. I am not sure how many people recognise what I refer to, but you find yourself in a totally different reality as a totally different person (race, sex, age, location, even planet can be entirely different!), but more mysterious is the fact you find yourself right in the middle of this "person's" life, with full and crystal clear awareness of their entire life, thoughts, emotions, memories etc, and further you will find yourself identifying with this "person" in an often entirely foreign "reality" right in the middle of a certain interaction or scenario and you identify so closely with the person you can act seamlessly with their "prior" actions. This is quite remarkable when you consider you can encounter many thousands of such "lives", each absolutely clear and distinct. (once I had an experience like this specifically whilst meditating on "inner sound" and it was this "inner sound" which appeared to "connect" all the "lives" together, I assume somebody somewhere understands what I refer to :)

Anyway, the point is on this psilocybin journey I found myself rapidly shifting between all these many hundreds of lives. I was finding myself in all kinds of distressing scenarios (not necessarily relating to myself, but full social situations involving multiple people), including disaster zones, immense suffering, fear and panic etc. which I guess would or could be very disorienting for some people. You must bear in mind, the shifting is so rapid, and the identification with the new "personality" so complete and clear, with full memories of "who" that person is, that there is no room, time or space to recognise who "you" "really" are, you are unable to say in that moment whether you are the personality you are inhabiting, or a "manjit" in some other reality :) You simply ARE what you ARE and you are faced with whatever reality-crises you are faced with in that MOMENT, and all else is irrelevant.

What I learned from this journey was compassion and love is all there is, it is the only life-raft we have. We do not know how we got here, we do not know when we will go, and we do not know where, if anywhere, we will go. Faced with a rapid influx of countless realities, with disaster scenarios, immense suffering, sadness, grief, torment etc, the only anchor one has is to act with as much compassion as possible in whichever and whatever circumstance one finds oneself in. It should become our only spiritual practice, it must become so ingrained it becomes so much like second nature that we do it automatically, in our sleep, dreams and visions too. To try and alleviate the suffering of others. To get all woo for moment, in this way one sheds all that is unnecessary and begins to merge with the fundamental nature of reality, which I find to be love. This is the final secret, the highest realisation."
https://groups.io/g/RadhasoamiStudies/message/208127

Blessed Be!

Hey, manjit.

That made for very interesting reading, your account of that particular psilocybin episode/adventure/journey/experience of yours!

You’ve also included some links, in the other thread about the consciousness-without-brain-filters business, apparently to some research reports on this. Haven’t had time to go through them yet, not even cursorily, but I’ll check them out, later on.

Not to focus too much on this one point of disagreement, beyond just mentioning it once now, so as not to detract from what might turn out to be a very meaningful discussion; but that disagreement, as you can probably guess, is about why you think that the difference between psilocybin-induced experiences and everyday dreams --- everynight? somenights?! whatever --- is one of kind rather than one of degree, specifically as it pertains to the content of those experiences I mean to say.

But that one small (or maybe not so small) quibble aside, I find your experiences very interesting! If you’d like to share any more, your own personal accounts I mean to say; or maybe link to where you might have already written more about your personal experiences about it; then I’m very interested.

Your thoughts about compassion seems very …nice, and wise as well. Which I suppose simply indicates that they speak to me, and agree with my own views on this. That recalls to me a discussion we’d had, you and I, some years back, about apparently not-very-nice “gurus”, and whether real spiritual “attainment” necessarily results in moral “upliftment” as well, and whether morally questionable behavior necessarily indicates lack of “proper” spiritual “attainment”. (Heh, yes, scare quotes used wholesale, I know!) Like I said, and speaking for myself --- from a gut level as it were, and without necessarily being able to rationally defend that opinion of mine --- I agree with you, that any spirituality worth its name would necessarily result in compassion, and certainly to a complete repugnance to causing hurt to other sentient creatures, at least in my book.

If you’d like to continue this discussion, then like I said I’d love to hear more about your first-hand experiences; and also about the mechanics of it, that is to say, the what-where-how of it, like is it some ayahuasca resort you go off to, how long the retreat is for, and all of that. To the extent you’re comfortable sharing, obviously. And also how it’s impacted you long-term. And how you imagine it might affect someone generally, as opposed to how it’s impacted you (given your extensive experiences in the past, I mean to say --- I’d imagine the effect on someone without those experiences might differ from yours, and not just in the specifities and details of the content of it, right?)

So yeah, all of that, and whatever else you think would be interesting. Provided you want to do this, of course. No matter if not, it was very interesting reading even this much. Cheers, manjit.

Hey, um!

Just saw this comment of yours, addressed to me. Dated June 1. It must've got hidden under more recent comments.

Heh, amusing, the guy's predictions.

Actually I'm not sure there's much to choose between, when it comes to religious imbecilities of the West (primarily Christianity) and in India (Hinduism, and related). That is, while I guess I do find Abrahamic superstitions far more oafish than the more subtle (but still unevidenced) Advaitic philosophy, and all of that, but I'm not sure that's comparing like with like.

What I'm saying is, if you look at what your garden variety Hindu believes, and compare it with what your garden variety Christian believes, well, I guess they'd each give the other a run for their money, in terms of the complete nonsense they believe in, and to an extent live by. And if Hindu thought (and, more generally Indic thought) encompasses Vedantic subtlety, well then Christian mysticism (and Sufi mysticism as well, if you throw your Abrahamic net wider) aren't exactly "oafish" either, right?

So I'm not sure rationalism is necessarily more on the side of Hinduism than of Abrahamic faiths, actually. Well okay, maybe just a wee bit; but probably not enough to make a difference, really.

As for the specifics of the astrologer's prediction: let us both enjoy our coffee, and just smile gently. (See my comment to manjit, posted just now, just above this one. Compassion, and so forth. Let's be compassionate, and let's refrain from laughing out aloud at that astrologer!)

Hey Appreciative Reader! Thanks for your comments...

"I’d love to hear more about your first-hand experiences; and also about the mechanics of it, that is to say, the what-where-how of it, like is it some ayahuasca resort you go off to, how long the retreat is for, and all of that. .... And also how it’s impacted you long-term. And how you imagine it might affect someone generally, as opposed to how it’s impacted you (given your extensive experiences in the past, I mean to say --- I’d imagine the effect on someone without those experiences might differ from yours, and not just in the specifities and details of the content of it, right?)"

Good questions....not sure if this is an appropriate forum for specific mechanics.....obvious considerations should be the quality, purity and precise dosage of any entheogen, we're not talking about kids taking unknown quantities of unknown substances for recreational "tripping".....that is a recipe for chaos! An ultra safe setting, a loving and non-judgmental sitter, gradual increases in dosage over time for those unfamiliar with their very powerful effects etc etc are all very basic considerations, and can be read about anywhere. For those who want to deeply explore the nature of consciousness and reality, it would be somewhat beyond these former basics; very large dosages, possibly preferably solitary (unless taken in an indigenous setting like an Ayahuasca ceremony, which I've not personally participated in), with eyes closed, letting go & diving into consciousness.....

Yes, the effects are different for everyone, and I am heavily "acclimatised" to such effects, possibly making it a lot easier an experience for me to undergo than for some others, perhaps. The thing is, I think these medicines work effectively with whatever level of issues the person is at, be it psychological, emotional, or "transpersonal" (there is no doubt for some experiencers that they have transcended the personal, or "egoic", concerns). Whether you are a Saint or a Demon, they will work with you, help you grow! (Personally, I can only claim this is true of Psilocybin, though I wouldn't deny the experiences of others with other entheogens like LSD or DMT....we're all in different places! Christopher Bache's LSD and the Mind of the Universe is an excellent read or listen re. this very subject, highly recommended!) The more personal, psychological "issues" one has, the more difficult and challenging will be the undoing or "cleansing" of those issues....but in the end it is the typical path of "yoga"; undoing all that is false and unreal...this part may be more or less difficult for some than others.....but in the end "Union" awaits us all :)

Basically, the attitude of somebody who has daddy issues should probably be a little bit more circumspect than somebody willing to risk life and death to penetrate the deepest mysteries of consciousness and reality. Common sense applies....

Anyway, despite all the prejudiced, uninformed & outdated nonsense surrounding psychedelics in some aging circles, modern culture, science and healthcare has moved on.......and caught up with the ancient Greek, Shamanistic and Vedic mystics and visionaries.....and realised their wide range of profound benefits on multiple personal and societal levels & their incredible statistical safety (when used with the afore-mentioned basics of safe use!).

You wrote: "but that disagreement, as you can probably guess, is about why you think that the difference between psilocybin-induced experiences and everyday dreams --- everynight? somenights?! whatever --- is one of kind rather than one of degree, specifically as it pertains to the content of those experiences I mean to say."

Ah, this is the question you keep banging your head up against, isn't it?! :) We've had this discussion at least once before, I'm not sure if it will make any difference to your views by me rehashing mine :)....

I have stated on numerous occasions there is no possibility of the rational human mind, language or concepts to comprehend the experiential, ontological nature of the profound mystery of consciousness, being or reality.

Your question actually makes no sense to me, and is unanswerable without writing volumes upon volumes unravelling the assumptions contained within. It is reducing incredibly complex and multi-layered and dimensional phenomena to a flat, one-dimensional question.

By asking if the "content" of varying types of experiences are "differen[t]" in degree than kind, you appear to be referring to "content" in the sense of "objects" of knowledge, ie. if the "objects" of knowledge in a dream are any more "objective" than those during a psilocybin experience? Well I would say this is indeed merely a difference of degree than kind. I believe there are varying degrees of correspondences between the content of these experiences and the outer, consensual or "objective" reality. I believe there is sufficient scientific evidence across multiple disciplines that either supports, or allows for, the possibility of a wide range of "non-local consciousness" phenomena which includes telepathy, precognition, NDEs, healing, impossible synchronicity clusters etc. From the mystery of consciousness, what came before the big bang, evidence of PSI in the laboratory (where it would be at it's absolute "weakest"), to quantum physics, all allow for the probability of profound mysteries at the heart of reality which our science and logic has not been able to understand, yet. Please note your "god of the Gaps" argument is irrelevant, nobody is suggesting quantum physics, or the scientific cluelessness about consciousness or the origins of the universe prove anything about "metaphysics"....but what they certainly do is ALLOW for such possibilities, and it is delusional and irrational not to recognise this obvious fact. I have also personally experienced these things to the degree I have no doubt as to their reality, it would be irrational to not believe they exist!

As an aside, I used to have these experiences intensely and frequently, but I haven't had anywhere near as many since my mushroom journeys some 5 years ago.....I suspect this is because whilst I never got excited by such experiences even back then, I at least found them interesting. Nowadays, whilst knowing with quite some certainty they exist, I find it a boring subject and experience. Ho hum, another synchronicity, another mind read! I'm far more interesting in acts of love, compassion or empathy, I find that to be a far more impressive, and difficult to achieve, super power!

Actually, that's not an aside, that's an answer to your question, there is the difference in kind; this is NOT about the "CONTENT" of experiences, but about the ontological nature of one's being! The difference in degree - and it isn't between psilocybin and dreams/visionary experiences, it between duality and non-duality imo - is one type of experience is dealing with seeming "objects" of knowledge, and the other is dealing with the nature of being or consciousness itself. There is no way for the human language to describe or explain that leap of "kind" level. In consciousness is the potential for all these objects of knowledge......the detached or individualised ego believes itself to be a real, independent "entity" or "self" which is viewing these "objects" of knowledge, which are infinite in their potential variety, and this we call reality. In your individuated consciousness, you view the physical world, your body, concepts and rationality etc as "real"......that is just another variation of consciousness! Consciousness unbound of the ego or individuated self no longer deals with "objects" of knowledge, but the very texture of consciousness itself. The suggestion is - and I do profess it is true - that the nature or texture of this consciousness we all have, in dream as well as in psychedelic experience, is profound & incomprehensible mysteries.......the sort of mysteries infinite universes within infinite universes conjure up........ bliss and love.

It is not an object of knowledge, or a belief, or semantic structure or concept of any sort. It requires no proof or evidence, because it IS one's very own being, and all proofs or evidence are secondary "objects" of knowledge which rest upon this very being for their existence!

“Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment. Cleverness is mere opinion, bewilderment is intuition.”
― Rumi

AS-SALAMU ALAYKUM!

© appreciative reader, a couple of articles from psychology websites in the last few days that you certainly don't agree with 😉

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/out-of-the-darkness/202306/does-the-soul-exist?amp

https://psyche.co/ideas/reason-is-a-powerful-tool-but-it-pays-to-know-its-limits

To be clear, despite my focussed criticism of RS on this blog, I don't believe it is not possible to connect with the "Divine", God or non dual through the medium, filters and concepts of RS and it's Gurus.

I believe everyone and anyone can connect with this "Divine" at anytime, regardless of belief or non-belief, and any religion CAN help in connecting with this nondual divine inner presence, and does do so in many people's lives.

My criticism is of the concepts, theology and claims of exclusivity and superiority to all other religions and paths within this imo below average religion, as well as it's unsuitability for the current times.

This view of exclusivity and superiority to all other paths and religions is, imo, delusional, ego-centric and ego-fortifying bullshit. There is no difference between the religion of RS and Christianity or Islam for example, followers of all these religions can connect with the Divine or nondual, because there never was a barrier to that connection anyway, these religions are just poles to focus are attention....

BISMILLAH!

@mangit,…You’ve been splashing around in your bath tub for the last 40 years , imagining you are in The Ocean. 😇
Jim Sutherland

Hehe Jim, that is a genuinely clever quote, I like it! Though I think you may have let yourself down, as well as the overall intelligence and wit level, with the childish misspelling of my name....but still, great quote!

I am glad you wrote this though, because I have to say, whilst this is a very clever quote, what substance is in there in this claim when applied to me in comparison to the experiences and religious beliefs you have shared online over the past 20 or so years?

Having shared a wide variety of different types of experiences, some of unfathomable depth, complexity and meaningful significance, entirely beyond the scope of language and concepts, I ultimately claim mystery and unknowingness.

On the other hand, having listened to you repeat the exact same and initially solitary experience for 20 years, gradually embellished and made to sound as if it occurs more frequently, that of your PRE-lucid dream, lasting mere seconds, of meeting "Charan's" form.....as the entire basis for your beliefs and preaching of the dualistic RS doctrine as if you know it is objectively true....perhaps you should ask if, and let's be honest here, the answer is quite obvious, if you may be engaging in some deep projection? :)

Whereas you stand up your, over the decades greatly embellished and polished, and yet still overwhelmingly underwhelming experience, as evidence of the veracity of the RS gurus and dogma, I put it up as evidence of it's abject failure!

I have had vastly more impressive, immersive and longer lasting visionary/dream encounters with "inner gurus" by the age of 8! The body and mind is a clevel thing, the body knows when it is ill and can send messages to the conscious mind via dreams, this is a well known and even scientifically accepted occurrence. Your PRE-lucid dream, lasting mere seconds, in which you projected your inner, subliminal or subconscious awareness of your heart issues onto the form of Charan is nothing to base a system of metaphysics on, dude, let alone preaching it as if you know what you're talking about!

Incidentally, some 20 years ago, I once told an alcoholic (back then), meat-eating, non-spiritual or philosophy interested person how to lucid dream. They had far, far more impressive experiences, in depth, duration, intensity and meaning within TWO DAYS of me telling them about it, than your experience/s after 40 years of dedication and meditation and lifetime vows etc. I shit you not, may God strike me down if I'm lying or even exaggerating to make a point here, it's simply undeniable.....and anyone with even a little experience with altered states of consciousness, OBEs etc will see straight through it! :)

But yes, yes, truly excellent quote, I may use it in the future!:

"You’ve been splashing around in your bath tub, imagining you are in The Ocean."

@manjit,…I am intelligent,…or wise enough to know by now, not to get baited in to a pissing contest with you. Every one here and on rss, ( which I was deleted from) know by experience, after trying to be your friend, that once they feel secure and comfy in your little circle of exers , you turn on them like a starving Vampire hunting for flesh blood, while posing as a Vegan. I don’t need to name Names. They all have their notch on your club. No one needs enemies when they have friends like you. Osho Robbins is the only “friend” you have never turned against, YET, OR one upped or belittled, but you are starting to chip away at him as well. The only one other Internet match for your inflated Ego I have ever encountered on the Internet is Allan Chronshaw , but you are no match for him, because his Security guards would tear you to shreds if you ever tried to use your usual stories on him to gain his trust. But your still young yet, and still have time to wise up.
Cheers,
Jim Sutherland

Hehe, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear Jim!

"I am intelligent,…or wise enough to know by now, not to get baited in to a pissing contest with you."

Errm, well, you literally DID just "bait" me with your comment, hence my very relevant & on-topic reply?! I would reply "not only are you not intelligent or wise enough to not bait me, you're not even intelligent enough to realise you literally did just that!"....but I'm not sure your clearly very fragile ego can appreciate that sense of humour ;)

I mean, I get it and I feel for you....but this is a typical tactic online. Over the past few days I have criticised your political, social and religious beliefs, and you've got less legs than Kal to stand on in defence of them! So, you resort to seemingly clever, but deeply unsubstantiated, ironic and hypocritical one-liners, and then to non-sequitur ad hominem abuse when that doesn't work. This belies an emotional, psychological and certainly egoic fragility, as well as an obvious lack of substance.

You talk about "vampires"; you have spent decades online preaching for people to go and get initiated by a fraudulent billionaire, and thereby create a bond with him they will be unable to break even if they deeply wanted to (as per standard RS doctrine), then to follow his precepts by doing seva, having darshan, and sitting for at least 3 hours a day picturing his face inside and showering them with subservience and devotion. Vampiric indeed. As for me, do you really think I need to steal your blood or energy? C'mon dude, I have no need for dilution :)

In regards making "friends" online and "turning" against them, I think you have deeply misunderstood me.....whilst my house is open and I am friendly and cordial with any visitors, I have NEVER invited anyone to come to my house, let alone stay, and neither do I have any personal desire for them to do so.

I have no need for online "friends", and I have no need for group-think, cliques or any other sort of "strength in numbers" BS. Echo chambers bore me.

Over the past few decades, at no point either online, or in your unsolicited emails to me, have I ever "supported" your views or experiences, be they about politics, society, gender, race or spirituality. I have, on the contrary, very often been extremely critical of your desire to preach, your experiences, your support of the deeply delusional and narcissitic "inner" experiences of Michael Martin who considered himself to be the "Western Satguru", your thinly veiled if not blatant anti-Semitic views (is this why you were "deleted" from RSS, or is this just a technical issue you're taking personally, it was never made clear?).....indeed, back in the good old days on RSS, I'm pretty sure I would have brutalised some of your absurd beliefs and views way, way worse than anything written here? ;)

I have less than zero desire to continuously expose my mind to, or become real, intimate "friends" with, those who hold small-minded, bigoted or racist views, and I have never pretending otherwise to anyone, ever. Over the COVID lockdown, I detached myself from actual, real-world friends, due to the constant barrage of ugly world-views on whatsapp......flat-earth, 5G, anti-vaxx, anti-semetic and Islamaphobic material was overflowing during that time. I mean, I love all these folks, some like brothers... I even love every poster here, every atheist, RS dogmatist and everything in between (as you know Jim, one of the people I had the softest spot for ever was Gloria, and until the very end.....and she kicked off our "friendship" by repeatedly calling me a "father-f#@ker" and and other deeply unpleasant things! She was a beautiful, but troubled soul....). I have nothing but compassion, understanding & tolerance for all your views....but that doesn't mean I want to be exposed to them constantly, or that I won't tear down such views when presented to me, "friend" or not.

So, at what point did you think your sending me emails, and me being cordial and friendly in response, would result in me being more interested our "friendship" than in the truth and substance of these subjects when discussing these important topics online? People can say whatever critical shit they want about me and my experiences and claims, it's more than fair game imo. Especially if I'm saying provocative, "baiting" shit like "you're playing in a tub and mistaking it for an ocean"....which I often do do, intentionally, as a challenge. I actually appreciate this kind of arrogance, or perhaps confidence, when it is supported by some substance, some truth. The problem is, in your case, it's not. It's just hot air.

There is nothing I wrote above which I haven't said to you before, clearly and explicitly, both prior to and since your sending me private emails. Because you have no response to it, and because it challenges the cherished beliefs of your ego, you resort to childish games of ad hominin attacks.

If at any point you want to make a more compelling and substantial argument in favour of your beliefs and experiences, please do give it a go. That might actually be a useful and constructive discussion.

PS - in regards Allan Chronshaw and his astral-fueled delusions, I tried to explain this to you in reply to your several emails to me, but you obviously didn't catch my polite attempt at explaining myself, so I will try to be a little clearer; your attempts to manipulate me into entering this guy's forum and debating him is childish and inane, and entirely transparent. I am not a child. Unlike the view you clearly hold about the purpose of all this "seeking", I have no desire to win debates, or to inflate my ego by taking people down, or other egoic forms of childsplay. I certainly don't have any interest in the juvenile and magical imagination of Chronshaw. If you haven't captured what really motivates me yet, after all these years, you haven't been paying attention.

Much Blessings To You Dear One! :)

To Manjit

1. What evidence do you have of fraudulent (Master) there is indeed a (Will) in place which in turn is binding?😇😇😇😇

2 The supreme lord is not confined to issues of money so understand the essence of (Spiritual Dialogue)

3. Manjit should now change name to reflect neither regions (S/he) dwell in


Harry saab

Advanced Disciple
🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺📯📯📯📯🔔🔔🔔⚖️⚖️⚖️

Manjeeeeeeet

Deal with me

Advanced Disciple

Harry saab 🔔🔔🔔🔔🔔

Perthenderrraaaaaahhhhh

Manjit

1. Why are you referring to (Jalla din rumi) when he never wrote in (English); do you not know (Lost in translation);

2. I suggest you master one discipline and stop being (jack of all trades) ⚖️⚖️⚖️😇😇😇🔔🔔📯📯

3. IDENTIFY how you have made connection with the (Supreme) or in your case dog chasing (S/he) owen tale🐈🐈🐈🐈🐱🐱🐱😭😭😭🐽🐽🤯🤯


Harry saab

Advanced Disciple

Harry Saab Ji Maharaj!

I am in awe of your magnificence, you are clearly too Advanced for me. I humbly beg you allow me to sit at your Radiant Feet and bask in your Holy Presence, and ask of you answers to the deepest and holiest of mysteries?:

1. IDENTIFY your inappropriate usage of (brackets)? Are these sacred (yantras) which reveal unto us lesser advanced (disciples) the secrets of the universe (?)

2. IDENTIFY if it is your mouth or your "neither" regions you are (shit talking) out of?

3. IDENTIFY if you can (IDENTIFY) the meaning of the (word) IDENTIFY?

4. IDENTIFY if (you) genuinely think anyone is taking your comments seriously, or if you're (actually) an exer who's (meta) trolling RS under the guise of an (Advanced) disciple? Because if it's the latter, Bravo! If it's the former, (oh) dear!

I humbly await your Advanced IDENTIFICATIONS

😇😇😇👹👹👹👹💔💔💔❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥🦴🦴🦴👻👻👻🤡🤡🤡👽👽👽💩💩🧌🧌🍄🍄🍄🍄🔔🔔🔔🔚

Manjit hurry up do not miss the boat before your leader wakes up and blocks me but you have indeed the skeleton key use it before it is to late for you and the church of the Churchless decon........ john wick chaper 4

See film take pop corn or

Better still

Take gauge do not end up like old lady

Who dealt with the donkey as per rumi stated🔔🔔🔔🔔🔔📯📯📯📯

You do know the story 😇😇😇😇😇🤮🤮🤮🤯🤯🤯📯📯📯

Harry saab
Advanced Disciple

Manjit

1. What grammar or linguistics acting school did you attend ask papi or ami jaan to demand refund from

Trump truth

Yaar alaaaaaahhhh😇😇😇😇⚖️⚖️⚖️🔔🔔📯📯📯

The DASBODH says:

Sure, here is the complete English translation of Chapter 7, Subchapter 1 of DASBODH:

---

Subchapter 1: The signs of a disciple

1. A disciple is someone who is on the spiritual path and dedicated to the quest for truth. There are certain signs that indicate someone is a true disciple.

2. A disciple has a deep desire for truth and is willing to give up all worldly desires to find it. He or she is determined and unwavering in the search for truth.

3. A disciple has deep respect and devotion for his or her teacher and follows the teachings and guidelines given. He or she is humble and willing to learn and grow on the spiritual path.

4. A disciple has a pure heart and a sincere desire to help others. He or she is compassionate and kind and strives to serve others without any selfish motive.

5. A disciple has a deep understanding of the nature of the Self and reality. He or she understands that the Self is the core of our existence and that all phenomena in the world are temporary and fleeting.

6. A disciple has a deep inner peace and happiness that comes from his or her connection with the Self. He or she is free from fear and doubt and radiates an aura of calm and serenity.

7. A true disciple is a rare and precious gift to the world. His or her presence brings peace, harmony, and spiritual growth for all living beings.

And in GENERAL:

There are several common obstacles that can prevent people from becoming true disciples on the spiritual path. Here are a few examples:

1. Attachment to worldly desires: One of the biggest obstacles is attachment to worldly desires, such as wealth, fame, power, or sensual pleasures. These desires can distract a person from the spiritual path and make it difficult to focus on the pursuit of truth.

2. Lack of discipline: Discipline is crucial for spiritual growth, but many people struggle with self-discipline. Without discipline, it can be difficult to maintain a regular spiritual practice and to overcome challenges on the path.

3. Ego: The ego can be a major obstacle on the spiritual path. When a person is focused on his or her own desires, needs, and accomplishments, it can be difficult to develop humility and to surrender to a higher power.

4. Lack of faith: Faith is essential for spiritual growth, but some people struggle to develop faith in a higher power or in the teachings of their spiritual tradition. Without faith, it can be difficult to stay committed to the spiritual path during times of doubt or uncertainty.

5. Negative influences: Negative influences, such as negative people or environments, can also hinder spiritual growth. These influences can create doubt, confusion, or fear, and can make it difficult to maintain a positive and focused mindset.

Overcoming these obstacles requires dedication, perseverance, and a willingness to overcome challenges on the spiritual path. A true disciple must be willing to let go of attachments, to cultivate discipline and humility, to develop faith, and to surround oneself with positive influences.

Hahahaha ... this was on the PERFECT disciple, as an exeption to the general PERFECT master .... hahahaha.

Hi UM
Your quotations are very clear, beautiful and concise. No one is perfect, but the listing also provides insights into where we can slip off from that focus, and therefore hints at what we need to do to take our next step forward again.

So, I guess, interpreting in modern jargon I might say the higher functioning disciple vs the disciple struggling. Sometimes the higher functioning disciple can enter a period of struggle, and sometimes the struggling disciple can find themselves with a period of grace where life is all smooth sailing. Cloudy days and sunny days, in no particular order. Such is the life, and one acclimates by diligence in all circumstances. Sometimes we forget, and reading your listing reminds us.

So, it isn't another class system (perfect disciple in one class, struggling in another) and you have presented it in a helpful way, as a set of guidelines to understand our own situation at any time. In that sense, these are perfect listings. Anyone can see how they apply to their own efforts to improve at any level. They are universal pointers for anyone who has set themselves to live for personal progress.

I find them appealing, truthful and like them very much.

@ Spence

It was just an idea to put these points here.

The ideas themselves are from the DASBODH, written by Sri Samartha Ramdas in the late 17th century. and is in kind of "bible" to the lineage of Shri Nisargadatta.

It touches describes in very crisp language and point by point in great detail all aspects relating to following a path, the meaning of a path etc.

After letting go the relation with the organisation, and i was no longer under the pressure of any commitment, and after many cups of coffee, I started to think for myself about the may aspects related to that path and tried to figure out for myself why and how this practice had come to be in the form as it presents itself today.

So no in the light of modern, cultural coloured, thinking but the practical reasons so to say, that might have been at the root of it all.

I came to see that culture is an artificial replica of nature and that the riles of nature to maintain survival are the same in culture.

I came to understand how religion is kind of invention like fire, the wheel etc and related to the needs of everyday life and solving the problems that gor with such an life.

As in all life very liitle room is left for "free time" .. time one can spend for other things than the maintenance of life ...or .... their are very few that are able and willing to give up ALL the strive for the maintenance and betterment of life and invest their time in what had no value and meaning, with regard to staying alive.

This can be done, was done ans is done in different degrees. But any body that wants to understand it can see for himself that ALL that reached to summit of their field of interest did so at the cost of something else that was also dear to them. Just hear the lament of the violin player Yehudy Menuhin.

It is all related to PLEASURE ... there are easy to have pleasures and those that are rare and among them are also those that can be had only after the complete exclusion of all other pleasures.

There is no reason why one should be judgmental about the preferences of another human being with regard to these pleasures. but that said the pursue of certain pleasure will make it practical impossible to enjoy certain other pleasures.

There is a good translation of the dasbodh in the USA that is not around in europe unless one is willing to pay a large sum for shipping.. This is not an suggestion to buy one ... hahahah ... but to tell you where the points came from.

What remains a great puzzle for me is why there are so many accepted on any path while there are just a handfull able to walk such an path. I do hope to figure that out before time is up.

@ Spence

After re-reading your words and in the light of what I wrote, i must accept the fact that I even doubt if I have left the kindergarten ... hahahaha.

One thing for sure, if i was able to feel shame, i would certainly be ashamed of thinking myself able in the past when I started out to understand such great human beings that we call saints as Rumi etc.

And... to fully appreciate the gift of life one has not to be a saint either ....hahahaha
For people like mee ... coffee is more than enough ... hahahah

Hey, manjit!

Interesting comment, as usual! Although this one's less about your own personal experiences, and more about the conceptual part of it, over which as you know we disagree.

Not to get into conceptual disagreements overly much now, except to clarify the part where you say you didn't quite understand my question. Both to clarify that to you, and also to place in context why I'd asked for personal accounts of your experiences. We all dream, right? Most of us, at any rate; I don't know, perhaps there are some, a few, that don't; but most do. Well, in times past people had all kinds of fantastic notions about what dreams mean and portend. We know today what dreams are. No one would reasonably believe today that dreams point to something in outer reality --- albeit, sure, they might point to something in our subconscious, but what I'm saying is simple, and obvious, that if you dream there's a UFO landing outside, or whatever thing, whether outre or everyday, that doesn't mean that reflects actual reality. Well, psilocybin-fueled experiences sound like dreams on steroids; and, while they may well help point to things within our subconscious, at least if properly directed, and in theory at any rate, but I don't see why we need give them any more credence than dreams, as far as their being actual pointers to an outer reality. I was wondering if there's anything in your personal experiences that might speak to it. Directly, personally, as opposed to merely conceptual arguments --- which can be fun too, and meaningful as well, but we're unlikely to agree on those grounds. I was wondering if you might want to share any personal experiences, that might speak specifically to that part of it.

You've linked to some articles in your comment. As you had last time as well ---I'd very briefly clicked one of those open, the one about psylocibin shutting down the extent of data coming in, and thereby increasing "mentality", or something like that, that sounds very interesting. Afraid I haven't had time to actually go through them so far, but I do intend to! (Need to first finish watching that other video Brian's linked to. Only got through around half of it so far. Don't know if you've watched them, they're fascinating!)

---

But this apart --- the pointer-to-external-reality thing apart --- I find myself more and more intrigued by, and interested in, the effect on the mind itself that psilocyin seems to have. So far as I've heard and read so far --- which isn't all that much, admittedly --- they seem to be beneficient. That's another aspect that interests me: whether you've observed any changes in yourself following on your own experiences with psilocybin. If you'd like to speak of that, that's something I'm very interested in, as well, your personal account as it relates to that question. Again, obviously only and to the extent you're comfortable sharing these things on a public platform.

...(Heh, I like your style, ending off with a catchline/mantra from different traditions every time, and what's more mixing them up. In that spirit, Aum Hallelujah!)

@AR

People over the whole world are the same and being the same they will have ti face the same problems of life.

So, people facing abstract problems, in our world may go to an academical trained counselor, a priest or take this or that pill to suppress symptoms but these means are not available in "wilderness" outside our so called "civilized" world.

They have developed means to handles these same problems but in an total other way, using techniques that date back hundreds of years and using plants of which we have hardly any understanding and knowledge.

The Europeans, bringing the light of Christ and the western world, have done their best to uproot that system of healing but it is still there, notwithstanding the ongoing process of making those systems seen as "retarded"

If there is something you want to know about the use of medicinal mushrooms, you have to turn your attention to THEM, those that have been using it for hundreds of years and know all the ins and outs of its purpose an use.

Maybe this is a place to start:
https://www.ffungi.org/blog/the-earthly-journeys-of-maria-sabina

If you read the books of Castaneda, you must be familiar with the concepts of "women of knowledge", Brucho and Nagual

I must ad something "strange" ...In one of the castaneda books it says that, the indigenous followers, trainees of an Mazatek "guru" did need any drugs to enter in the so called "second attention" but Castaneda was given or forced to take them, to break his mental defenses as he was considered "mentally sick" in their eyes.

They use drugs in the form of plants to deal with mental issues and NOT for spiritual growth

@AR

This side can be read in English.
Have a look there.
https://www.zamnesia.com/

Why do I post this link?

To show you that that is all about a revenue modell and ... it does what we LOVE to do in the west ... we love to ...EXTRACT .. the so called , "active and effective ingredient"

We have not only done it with plants, we have done it also with mystical paths as they existed elsewhere in the world .. get the meditation out of the narrative.

It is trying to find a short cut where there is none and ... it has been proven harmful also. .... think of the development of fertilizers, psycho pharmaca, and drugs like cocaine.

Hello, um.

Clicked open your link. Only very briefly so far, looks interesting!

I was interested in manjit's account, given that he's personally done this thing. It's different when you can talk with someone, ask them follow-on questions, and so on. Plus given his very strong conceptual grounding and knowledge on these things --- even though we disagree, he and I, on some of the conclusions drawn --- manjit is probably very well positioned to discuss this question. Of course, to the extent he feels comfortable sharing online.

(But of course, other more "impersonal" accounts are also, at one level, completely personal, I get that. Thanks for your link, I'll check it out, later on, absolutely!)


---

Yep, Castaneda! We've spoken about him before this, you and I, I remember. At one time, when much younger, I was very taken with his work. I used to own all of his books --- haven't checked them out in years, but I think I still do have them all, tucked away somewhere in my bookshelves.

Probably that may be why I'm interested in this question, my early fascination with Castaneda I mean to say. On the other hand, even it were not for him, but psilocybin effects are so closely allied with many of the effects of meditation, and indeed might well be the precursor to the latter (in the same way that dreams are said to be the precursor of fictional narratives), I guess that interest is perhaps inevitable for someone drawn to this question.

Haha, yes, so much weirdness in Castaneda. Who knows how much of that was objectively true, and how much subjective hallucination ---- and how much complete fabrication (I did not know then, when I was reading him, but came across it later on, that there were many questions raised about the man's probity, so there's that aspect of it as well).

(I meant the Maria Sabina thing. I see you've posted another link as well, in the meantime.)

Heh, yes, agreed, most things tend to be commodified these days. Which of course isn't necessarily a bad thing, if people are upfront about what they're doing, and what their motives are. It is when someone's pretending to be above it all, but at the same time fills their pockets and their bellies with stuff taken from others in exchange for their "teachings", that it sounds hypocritical. If someone's completely upfront about their profit-seeking motives, and completely honest about what it is they're selling and why, then I've no complaints really.

@ AR

>> I was interested in manjit's account, given that he's personally done this thing. It's different when you can talk with someone, ask them follow-on questions, and so on<<

Well it all depends on YOU, on what you are after, what YOUR motives are for YOUR interest.

One can read about the Mnt Everest, those that climbed it, watch films, go to meetings were they speak etc etc endless possibilities .. but what it really is to stand at its peak has to be experienced. That is why the Mazatec healer I wrote about earlier refused to talk about the experience unless at least on member of the film crew would take from the flesh of the gods as well with her.

I have come to the conclusion that I am not willing to take that route for my personal reasons.

As state before ... all things start in the house AR, it was there that the keys were lost, it is there that they are to be found.

Sooner or later you will come to the same conclusion and having found your own key, there is nothing wrong with going out into the world and do there the things you want to do there.

The old teachers all stated that self knowledge, self understanding, self realization is a prerequisite for the rest of knowledge to be had.

That much knowledge I gathered .... first things, first ... all by drinking coffee.

To um

1. Why do you rely on (Translations)? IDENTIFY? 🎺🎺🎺📯📯

2. I suggest you post full passage in correct version of original language;

3. Seems you lack of comprehension is indeed self evident;

4. Words and quotes in english mean nothing practice is indeed supreme

(Kamooosh) as per Rumi 😇😇😇😇


5. Have manjeets mushrooms for breakfast ⚖️⚖️📯📯📯🔔🔔🔔🔔


Advanced Disciple

Harry saab hopefully not banned by Brianna and the Churchless church 🤩🤩🤩

@ Harry

ad [1]
My Marathi, is as good as my Arabic or Rumi's Persian

ad[2]
There are several English translations in [India]
Marathi is an Indian language but not all Indians speak Marathi.

Dasbodh, spiritual instruction for the servant
by: Sainr Shr Samartha Ramdas
Trls: Mrs. Shilpa Joshi and Dr. Shrikrishna Karve
ISBN:: 978 0 615 37327 0

Chapter 5 , Sub- Chapter 3: The signs of a disciple
Page: 101

@ Harry

>>5. Have manjeets mushrooms for breakfast <<

To drive a car, one needs among many other things:
- an motive and a goal
- a car
- a road that leads from A to B
- a drivers licence
- enough gasoline to go from A to B

Mushrooms are just one of the many "means of mental transport"

Drinking coffee, is just another one.
I do not suggest, you, or anybody else should take coffee for that reason.

To urm

1. So is mine if you have undertaking the time to understand the ( Divine - Adi-Granth -Sahib); then we have no issues;🤗🤗🤗🤗

2. Issue is (Is the person doing the quote) Puran Sant Satguru? IDENTIFY?

3. All Puran Sant Satgurus are indeed revealed in the ( Divine-Adi- Granth-Sahib);

4. AND indeed how to identify them for all who seek the way out of kaal domian?


Harry saab

Advanced Disciple

At least try to clime jacobs ladder ?

@ Harry

There have been days that I tried to understand the Granth but those days have gone by, by now.

There is that story about a young lion cub that was raised by cheap and had done its best to be a sheep. In do so he had created an fear for lions. One day he was forced by a grown up lion to look in to the water were he saw the image of not one but two lions instead of one. From sheer terror he screamed like a lion and by doing so he came to know himself as a lion.

Like the lion cub, I made myself to believe that I had to learn many things others told me in order to be like them ... and I did learn quite a lot and also about mystics and their lives... but one day I realized that I had no clue about myself and was not able to transfer myself in the image of others.

Then i understood that the creator had created the crow, the nightingale and the eagle and every time he did he was satisfied with what he saw.

Now I am in the process of decluttering my mind of all strivings to change or to become as or to understand what x wrote etc and just live my life as it comes, drinking some coffee and going out into the forest.

I do not know if this is an answer to your questions etc as what you write is most of the time as cryptic as the granth

The day a jabos ladder appears before me I will see what best to do

Just to show how the same discussion persists....

From 13 years ago right here...

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/11/matter-is-as-mysterious-as-spirit.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e20133f5dbcf56970b#comment-form


From Brian

Spence, I like the notion of "direct perception." But neuroscience tells us this isn't possible. You said:
-----------------
The notion of transcending mental concepts of reality and replacing those with direct perception, that is the goal of most forms of meditation. Meditation practices in the main consist of techniques of quieting the mind so that we can really have direct perception, instead of everything filtered through biological sense stimulation and mental reconstruction.
------------------

Most of the workings of the brain/mind (mind is the brain in operation) are outside of conscious awareness. The brain/mind uses prior experiences, and habitual or instinctual processing (it's been found that babies aren't blank slates, and neither are we), to arrive at a view of the world that, to us, is "just there."

That is, we aren't aware of how our awarenesses came to be, since brain activity outside of consciousness obviously can't be known to us.

So it's very difficult, if not impossible, to theorize that humans have an ability to see things "as they are" through some sort of direct perception.

Mindfulness does seem possible, though. Meaning, we can be better aware of what is within awareness -- recognizing that what that is has been processed through unavoidable neurological activity outside of our awareness.

In other words, we aren't disembodied beings, some sort of "pure consciousness" that's able to see reality entirely objectively.
...
...
...
And my reply...
...

..
Brian, I would argue that so long as we live in the world of our own mental conception we are entirely "disembodied beings".

The very facts you speak of support a much more parsimonious explanation: We generally live in a world of conception.

You are arguing that this is all we can experience. But then you rightly claim that we are consciously aware of very little of the activity that goes on.

Let's say for the moment that spiritual and physical reality are actually the same thing, but we don't know enough about it to understand that. If that is so, then simply getting in touch with what your actual experience is, defacto, is spiritual development. But to do that, you have to quiet all the noise generated from past conditioning and the body's built in sensory filters.

The world you see around you may be real, but you are only seeing what your brain has constructed.

Is it possible to see it any other way?

All the evidence about meditation research shows us that things we are not aware of in our own brain arise to our conscious awareness simply by learning to still the mind, to be at peace.

And, from an anecdotal perspective, this is a common occurence which meditation only refines. Everyone knows that if they calm down and give themselves time away from a problem, when they return to it their thinking is much clearer, they see things they did not see before. Meditation is that process accelerated.

As for the experience of consciousness, if our brains can manufacture fantastic fantasies, who knows what sort of brainstorms await us when we begin to look at it directly!

That is what Chitta is, mindstuff. In meditation, at some point, you can see it. Then all the geometric shapes in neon approach, to a rhythmic beat, undulating and they emerge and reshape themselves, and they merge into a creature, a flow of shape whose surface changes in the most complex ways. Machinery, formulas, bizarre creatures, they are all their and instantly, without any effort. It is actually a little effort to keep that creature at bay so you can watch its infinite variations.

I'd say that could keep one occupied in mediation for a while!

Is it biological? It must be.

Is it something more? It is certainly more than traditional science has yet documented.

But the Saints know all about it.

Is that biological? Of course! You can see the brain functioning!

To Urm:

1. Thank you for reminding me of my child hood; many years have past when reading (Prof-A-J-Arberry) classical Persian Literature as well as (Reuben Levy) and (Edward Granville Brown) Literary History of persia not to mention (Shanameh) the Epic of Kings (Ferdowsi);

2. What you say is clear and transparent for any sincere seeker who wishes to now (Fly).

3. I am now flying for the destination is known 📯📯📯📯


4. I hope or at least i am convinced that you may inturn be my (Elder) what say you (Elder)🤗🤗🤗

5. To sepence Tepper;

You are indeed correct there will never ever be a time when (this issue goes away) this is the play that we all must seek to win!

6. But we have to be in it to win it (Um-Elder) 📯📯📯📯

Harry saab

Advanced Disciple
Flying 📯📯📯📯

To Urm Spencer

1. Does this help read volume 3 of E.G.Browne a literary history of Persia 4 vols Cambridge 1928:

KHVAJU:
Our elder has left his mystic robe as a pledge in the vinterner's shop,

O my friends all, disciples too of our goblet- seizing elder.

If wine has made us infamous the world over, what can we do?

So ran the writ of our destiny on the primal day of the world. (E.G.BROWNE).

Harry saab

Enjoy flying as long as it is sincere with your own fragrance of divine Hue oppps said to much kaaamoooosh📯📯📯

@ Harry

I do hope, it gave you pleasure to find this poem and put it here because my understanding of english and poetry is so miserable that I fail to understand it.

And ... that is a "deja vue" ... reminding me of the times I strugled through some pages of mystic poetry in the past.

Todya the frustration not being able to understand the meaning has gone, realizing that only those at par with these great human beings are able to understand and to realy enjoy the sweetness of these words.

Have a good flight .. whatever it is you are doing and going

@ Harry

Making coffee, I was reminded of and conversation I once had with my father, may his soul, if he had one, have eternal peace.

I asked him whether or not I should educate myself. Dad sighed. His sighing was his prayer or better said his lament before the Lord ...oh, Lord what have I done wrong, to deserve such ignorant children.

As I insisted he gave an answer he finally said: "look son I did not educate myself, why would you?!" ... and that was the end of the conversation.

Many decades later I do realize that I should have heed his words.

Experiences come and go, however complex and lofty, no need to create them artificialy.

A natural live, lived in a natural way,
and
a simple life lived in a simple way
is all that is needed, to arrive at the graveyard.

TO urm

1. Least i now know that you are a man; and as every body knows parents are always right 😏😏😏😏

2. The point of (Graveyard) and Jacobs Ladder include the silver cord!

3. There is no need to wait the harbinger always delivers on time📯📯📯

4. Issue is ( Do you accept Harbinger) those who dwell in the (Taverns) never do saki always with in 📯📯📯📯

Harry saab

Hope indeed you find what you are looking for make sure you know when to get off at your stop.


@ Harry

Not knowing where to go and what to do, I listened to what others were after.
To day I have left that behind.

I was not born to learn what there is to learn,
nor to see what there is to see,
nor to enjoy what can be enjoyed
nor to follow into the steps of anybody

An old monk in a monastery years ago said out of the blue .. you cannot go on learning your whole life. It took many more years to realize that he was right.

I am looking for no-thing ...

He said:
The pull must come from within
and
if that pull is not there,
it is just not there,
and
there is nothing one cab do about it.

To um

1. Is the wall made out of bricks ?

2. Or is the brick made out of the wall

3. Either way does the head hurt understanding why are you hitting your head against the brick wall ?🤗🤗🤗

4. It is like the big war between the (Sea) and the (salt)?

5 . who won? Did 2 not become 1 ?

Remember all wisdom must come via direct experience of reality save for those who assume reality as (Pardaaadh) remove the enchanted maya but with the help of your monk (Bantha-ji) as per the (Sangha) of BUDDHA;

6. With out BUDDHA there can not be any monk ....??

7. Those who sit in the (Tavern) sit because of the pull of saki within 📯📯📯

Harry saab

Advanced Disciple


@ Harry

To discuss what others, do, write and say ...is normal and common practice and in a sense easy.

When an issue has come to its end, or the participants are no longer interest a new issue is brought to the table ... like any game of card, or whatever ...the king is dead, long live the king .... game over, new game starts

It has developed into a complete industry of producers and consumers

The game I play, is just one of a lifetime, there is nothing to produce or to consume.

I just do not understand your strange language, as I did not understand the poems and writings of saints and mystics. The days that it caused me to feel miserable are over.

I need not to understand any mystic nor do I need to understand you.
I no longer think there is anything wrong either with me or with others.
There could only be one Einstein, one Kabir etc

There have to be crows, to give credit to the nightingale and the eagle for their brilliance to be seen and appreciated.

To urm

1. Finally (Touche) you have understood the game for me was over a long time ago in dealing with your responses however i had to allow you to admit 😏😏😏😏

2. In regards to the (Puran Sant Satguru Kabir) you should undertake the reading of (Anuragar Granth) and see how many (Puran Sant Satguru Kabir) exist in all ages? 📯📯📯

3. The puran sant Satguru reveals all to his beloved Disciple.

4. Hope your (Brij) pashaan is up to speed since you english in your previous comments it not up to speed

5. Role the dice and long live the king

Watch John wick chaper 4

Take pop corn if you want i will indeed pay for your ticket and pop corn🃏🃏🃏

6. If your latin is up to par understand the terms of engagement

7. Seems some what percular that (Farsi) is not in your comprehension

Well all you have is time on your hands or has the egg timer run its last course⚖️⚖️⚖️⚖️

Harry saab

Advanced Disciple
🎺🎺🎺📯📯📯⚖️⚖️⚖️


@ Harry

There are many so called original versions of the Anurag Sagar.
There is much dispute about the content and the writer.
There many translations

Years ago I read the book as a fascinating narrative, that has to be believed as true.

Believing is not my strongest trait

In private I used to say that the american mentality is built of and formed by the the initial settlers.

Many of these initial settlers flet from europe to escape prison, execution etc etc.

People considered by society, and or the ruling class as CRIMINALS ...both in the normal use of the word, people that imported criminal organisation but also those that had ideas that were considered as criminal ... religious people.

Today there was an item on our TV on your "Counsel of National Policy" their operations behind the curtain to ban books etc ... AND ... that part of that organisation is DUTCH by origin, extreme religious zealots that escaped from the Netherlands, a land already deeply drenched in calvinism a form of calvinisme that they considered as to frivolous , , my goodness you are heading towards a rough ideological future

Why are RS satsangis so confused? And why do they feel the need to mask this confusion with a preachy facade of wisdom, knowledge and insight? Why do they try to appear knowledgeable and share their opinions about subjects they clearly have little to zero understanding of? Is there even a single advocate of RS online who actually follows and believes the traditional RS teachings, and hasn't twisted and distorted the RS teachings so much as to render them an unrecognisable mish-mash of wishy-washy, new-age cliches more palatable to a 21st century audience? These are the questions I ask myself reading through some recent comments!

Um wrote about psychedelics: "They use drugs in the form of plants to deal with mental issues and NOT for spiritual growth!"

"It is trying to find a short cut where there is none and ... it has been proven harmful also"

and in regards the Radhasoami religion: "What remains a great puzzle for me is why there are so many accepted on any path while there are just a handfull able to walk such an path. I do hope to figure that out before time is up."

Hey, Um, here's a suggestion - if you you can't work out the "great puzzle" of why a familial dynasty of religious patriarchs accepts lots of followers into it's religion just like all religions do, despite following that religion for years, perhaps you shouldn't make definitive proclamations and statements about genuinely complex and multilayered subjects you have absolutely zero knowledge and understanding about? Reading fiction like Castaneda and name dropping Maria Sabina does not qualify you. Everything you hint at re. psychedelics is discussed with exceptional nuance, intelligence, depth, multi-layered and complex insight in the domain of psychedelic literature, and none of the 1 dimensional reductionist ideology based on ego-centric and emotionally driven posturing deeply grounded in a total lack of personal experience like your comments here are based on. Sometimes, real wisdom is accepting you're clueless and not pretending otherwise, just to appear relevant...... ;)

###################################################################################

Spence wrote [lots and lots and lots of scientific articles about the benefits of, presumably, almost exclusively BUDDHIST VIPASSANA meditation, and not a SINGLE article on the benefits of RS or "Sant Mat" meditation because no such science of the science of the soul exists, and possibly because no such benefits exist either]

Brian wrote [here's a quote from someone who practices Buddhist meditation]

Spence replied [this isn't real meditation, this couldn't possibly be of any benefit like magical Sant Mat meditation is]

Brian quoted Burbea discussing suffering and meditation in non-technical, layman's terms "The more we practise inclining the mind to notice space, the easier it becomes to actually open up some space in the perception and experience some relief."

Spence replied [space is just a concept, this meditation is inferior to my meditation practice, for whose benefits I have provided precisely zero scientific research. How could anyone possibly think that suffering can be reduced by meditating on a concept related to space!]

"If Burbea has other methods that do, then perhaps those deserve a look."

Spence then finished off this string of posts with unwarranted and baseless criticism of Burbea, based on his (mis)interpretation of 1 sentence, clearly based on the limitations of language, with the most spectacular and confused of suggestions as to what "method" may work in reducing suffering. Now hold on to your hats folks!:

"As I wrote above, couldn't we also learn to live through life from that higher view to begin with? So there is no second arrow needed?

Some call that living in the eye center."

Haha, you have got to be shitting me!! :D Living in the "eye center"?

Hey Spence, here's a suggestion - if you're going to post several hundred articles about the scientifically proven benefits of Buddhist meditation whilst sneakily implying there's not a hair-breadths of difference between vipassana and the magico-mythical practice of RSSB meditation embedded within a paranoid, life and connection denying medieval gnostic framework, perhaps don't criticise the very first quotes posted from a Buddhist meditator as being ineffective at providing those benefits.

Also, perhaps don't criticise vipassana as being too conceptual and "space" oriented due to the limitations of language in describing such a practice as bare noticing/noting of reality (which is what vipassana is), when you literally follow a religion that aims to "transcend" the physical body by gathering all ones "vital currents" at the "eye centre", so that one can transcend the suffering of the poor masses of other sentient beings in the "physical plane".

I personally find this all to be very dishonest, and a pattern of behavior amongst RS satsangis who are emotionally driven to defend their religious beliefs but without addressing anything honestly or directly (because they are fundamentally unable to do so?). It's all misdirection and sleight of hand born of a deep inner confusion and cognitive dissonance, imo.

#####################################################################################

Over at the RSS forum, James recently posted this quote from Sach Khand Journal of Radhasoami Studies "A larger question naturally arises: Why do American gurus like Olsen, Twitchell, Thind, and Rogers utilize Sant Mat publications without acknowledging their sources or properly referencing them............[what they] are trying to do is "genealogically dissociate" their roots."

This has long been one of James' bug bears.....Oooh those sneaky, pesky westerners with their fake "Mastership", fake history, dubious claims, not acknowledging sources properly etc......tut tut tut, so obviously fake and unspiritual unlike the great be-turbaned ethnic Indian masters!!

BULLSHIT!

The entire history of RS has been one of lies, distortions, power grabs, lack of acknowledgement etc..why so much hate for white folks who are merely babes at the game? It's crazy cognitive dissonance!

We have no idea about the real history of Soamiji and his guru, Jaimal's succession to Soamiji is dubious and hotly disputed, Kirpal and Jagat/Charan's succession to Sawan was a shit show from which absolutely nobody came out looking like a spiritual teacher, Ajaib lied about his connection to Charan, and the entire religion is based upon a book falsely claiming to be written by Kabir, the Anurag Sagar (and which I believe James stil to this day calls "Kabir's Anurag Sagar" despite well knowing it isn't")

Genealogical association and disassociation from one's roots, or more accurately dishonesty, is the very modus operandi of RS from it's very inception. Stop hating on Westerner's who are simply late to the game!

RS is an occult game of power, and only the gurus know how to play it properly. The rest of y'all are just grist for their mill.

###################################################################################

This widespread confusion in the online RS space, and the inability of even one spokesperson to defend the actual (as opposed to their own subjective, wildly divergent interpretation of!) RS theology or gurus directly, without the blatant misdirection, sleight of hand, ignore-ance of valid criticisms etc, which is imo how it's current apologists and defenders discuss RS, is very damning imo.

You see this kind of unexaminded, half-baked misdirection when it comes to NDEs and evidence suggestive of reincarnation, for example. RSers cite these as evidence of the dimension of "soul" and "afterlife" (James Bean is or was a regular on NDE radio, for eg!)......but this is utterly absurd on so many levels. Having spent more than 30 years deeply studying NDEs and "past live" phenomena, as well as being completely knowledgeable about the RS theology.......there is absolutely no sane or coherent way one can reconcile either NDEs or "past life" experiences (as researched by Ian Stevenson for eg.), with the RS dogma and doctrine! What NDErs tell us about the nature of the soul, god, human life and reality at large is RADICALLY different from the life-denying theology and cosmology of RS, they simply cannot both be "true". Likewise, Ian Stevenson's research on "past lives" does not show anything like the cosmology of RS, karma is not juridicial, and one can have one human life after another with going through 8.4 million animal lives, for example.

Completely contradictory cosmological models exist between NDErs and the RS dogma. Yet satsangis wil cite these as "evidence" for their own beliefs!

So much confusion......

SHAZAAM!

@ Manjit

We all do our work in our own way.

Sometimes it pleases others what we do, feel and think
sometimes it does not
and
most of the times nobody cares.

The ins and outs of the RSSB organisation are not my concern, like those of the clergy of the RC was in the past.

I went to church in the past for my own reasons and later got initiated for the same.

To enjoy my meal in a restaurant, the only thing that matters to me whether the food is palatable and digest able, the rest is not my concern and if it becomes my concern I get up, pay my bill and leave the place.

I am personal responsible for what I want to believe and nobody else and what I want to do with that believe is also mine.

I had a great time being around in RSSB just based upon what it was for me. I was involved in many ways ... loved the work, the company etc and I loved the narrative too and the one that stood for it.

Whether that narrative is a "truth" I never knew, not then, not now and it really doesn't matter to me.... I liked so many people , famaly and friends, I never knew whether they "deserved" it ... I just liked them for nothing.

And that is how I want to keep it ... love, respect and other of these feelings are ... mine to give to whomever I want for my own reasons.


Hi Um. Intriguing thoughts, though they of course have nothing at all to do with my comments above.

Speaking of which, I wrote " Everything you hint at re. psychedelics is discussed with exceptional nuance, intelligence, depth, multi-layered and complex insight in the domain of psychedelic literature".

I have been pondering more over this.......just why is the disparity so great between between RS and psychedelic literature?

Having read vast amounts of both RS and psychedelic literature, and keeping relatively up to date with the cutting edge of both (more so psychedelic than RS nowadays, to be fair), it is striking just how broad, deep, intelligent, sophisticated, multi-perspectival, multi-disciplinary, information-loaded, honest, self-critical, open-minded, open-ended, interesting and stimulating psychedelic literature can be...., it is often breath-taking in it's elegance, beauty and wisdom. Truly mind expanding in the best of ways. And usually grounded in genuine intellectual humility and a deep appreciation for the ultimate mystery of reality, ie. an understanding of one's own ultimate intellectual unknowingness. In summary, it is a vibrant and living subject.

On the other hand, what is going on with RS literature? By the age of 19, I could write any RS book that has ever been written, whilst half asleep. I do not exaggerate imo. This is not to say how great and wise I was aged 19 that I could literally write a book which would be indistinguishable from one written by a "Perfect Living Master", but rather to suggest how banal and one-dimensional the RS philosophy must be for a 19 year old to be able to regurgitate it with absolute perfection, how lacking in real-world usefulness, how lacking in depth.

Just where are the multi-perspectival, multi-disciplinary, comparative, critical texts on RS theology, cosmology, gurus, history, practices and experiences etc?

Some 25-30 years ago David Lane co-authored a book with Jurgensmeyer and launched a website which revealed a great deal of "hidden" RS history, at least to us living in the west.

This is the sum total, a minor tentative step into the very recent history of RS!

Where are the detailed examinations of the REAL history of shabd yoga as an evolution of the Kashmiri Shaivist tantric practice of nada yoga (or, dare we go even farther back, to the !KUNG or San peoples religion in Africa, and their kundalini descriptions and beliefs?)? Where are the detailed examinations of the references to breath control and kundalini by early bhakta sants like Kabir or Nanak, and how that relates to the claims of modern RS that such practices were not practiced by "Sants"? Where are the cross-disciplinary texts or studies which compare and contrast the "inner" narrative, and contradictions, of NDErs, psychedelic users, mystics from other cultures and traditions, with that of the RS inner journey? Where are scholarly texts discussing evidence "suggestive of reincarnation" like that of Stevenson's and ancient tribal societies, and comparing that with the claims of RS such as the human life being so rare & driven by juridical karma? Where are the insightful texts about how to know you are following the correct path or guru, when the phenomena we use (such as synchronicity, precognition, "miracles", altered states of consciousness when thinking, visiting or dreaming about the guru, etc etc) to justify our faith in highly unlikely beliefs & gurus are identical to the phenomena experienced by followers of gurus and paths we consider to be false, fake or lower? Where is the scientific research on RS meditation practitioners? Where are the inter-faith and inter-belief dialogues between RS gurus and those of other faiths (and I don't mean the PR stunts those like Rajinder and Gurinder.....and some of their online followers....seemingly excel in. Real and difficult dialogue about real matters of importance rather than regurgitating generic platitudes any child can be taught to mindlessly parrot)?

There is literally NOTHING. In summary, like it's intake of new, young independent seekers, it is a dying if not already dead subject.

NANU NANU!

And of course, in relation to possibly the most important issue of our time; how can we reconcile such an isolationist, individualistic, life, family and connection denying religion as RS, where the entire aim or purpose of the path is to transcend the terrible physical world and all other "souls" to ascend into some imagined heaven of perpetual, egoic bliss, with the current climate crises?

Whereas NDErs and psychedelic users easily reconcile their experiences - if they're not already intimately & inextricably connected to - with the environmental crises if useful and constructive ways, RS followers are not. On the contrary, they are to show no concern, interest or sense of connection to the environment at all.......their entire path is to actively disengage, disconnect and "rise above" such "pinda" concerns and go the "eye centre".

This is because NDErs and psychedelic users are not encumbered by the baggage of an out-dated and transparently absurd gnostic belief system. It is not so much the case that RS followers interpret their experiences through such conceptual filters (though surely some do!), but more so they don't in the main have ANY "inner experiences" of any note (beyond that of dream like fragments) and instead merely mindlessly believe in these life, connection, love, compassion, joy & happiness denying religious beliefs.

I contest that religious belief systems like RS are deeply inappropriate and potentially dangerous in our current times. Or, at least it would be if anyone with a genuine, independent, non-religious interest in the mysteries of life, consciousness, reality and altered states even considered RS a viable vehicle for "spiritual growth". Luckily, they don't. ;)

@ Manjit

Whatever I know of the use of psychedelics, is related to what people that use it have to say about it in public and as far as it passes by my door.

What I wrote before is related to the "discovery" that people from the west have a quite different understanding and handling of psychedelics than those for whom it is part of their culture.

One of the things that struck me lately was, the remark of Mazatec healers that they never used the mushrooms to find god but only for medicinal reasons, mostly for mentally disorders.

I also understood that indigenous people use these mushrooms in a traditional, ceremonial setting under the guidance of respected elders ... and ... they do so for their own reasons.

"Their own reasons" is also what people motivates to believe this or that religious narrative. as it is an expected solution for their personal "problems".

Most people go to a restaurant in order to fill their stomach in a pleasant way in a comfortable environment for an affordable price.

Apart from them, there are those that have professional interests ... the writers, the colonists, the bloggers, the food historians, the dietitians etc.

That said ... missing that traditional environment, etc ... the use of psychedelics is not there for the common westerner.

In the end what matters for ALL of us ..... motivation.


@ Manjit

There are so many " restaurants" that serve [traditional] food:
https://www.drukpa.eu/en/

There is also the famous "el buli" in spain where food is made "artificial"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN0eshtAxYA

@ Manjit

"street food" is available to ALL people .. the "taste" and "the price" is at their level

The "arificial" food at " el bulli" was available for the very happy few ... those that had the money, had the trained taste buds, and where aalowed in

@ AR

By accident, searching for an instrumental rendering of the Raag Bhairavi, I found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjtRdqaQwoQ

Do read the explanation under the video and have a close look at the body language of the "guru", in this case an classical musician and his students paying him their respect.

You will notice that such and behaviour is almost impossible in western culture. Neither the teacher nor the student would be able to act out what is at stake inside.

Teachings of the saints can never be understood properly without the relation between master and disciple, indian style.

It is rarely seen this type of interaction that is so typical for India.

Being a guest in Indian families I have come to experience the intimacy of this interaction myself. ... it is at the core of TRANSMISION.

@ AR

The gentlemen in white with the turban by the way, are Namdharis, that are closely relate to RSSB branches for whom music is important

Hello, um.

Yep, very nice link. Thanks for sharing! I watched the whole thing, and although nothing dramatic happens there, no plot per se, but nevertheless I enjoyed it, and in fact found it kind of oddly soothing.

The music was very cool, for one thing. And yes, um, I understand what you’re actually pointing out here, the master-disciple thing, and the bowing down and touching his feet. It isn’t just the teacher or master, Indians do tend to generally respect, even revere, their elders, which is kind of charming, and in fact, if within reason and unless taken to some perverse extreme, completely admirable I’d say.


---


One thing, though, um? The part where you say, “Teachings of the saints can never be understood properly without the relation between master and disciple, indian style.” I’m not sure I agree there, I’m afraid.

That is, sure, to fully understand where someone’s coming from, it helps to understand the culture, agreed. But if some “teaching” retains its full meaning only within specific cultural trappings, then I’d say such “teachings” are suspect.

Here’s what I mean. At one time, I’d watched quite a few of those “bullshido” vids, and read their articles as well. You know the sort of thing I mean. Like this Tai Chi “master” will go up with whole hordes of his students, and go full Ip-Man on them, cutting them down like grass. Sometimes without even touching them, by harnessing is Qi energy. And then, one day, said Tai Chi wiz comes up against a brash young MMA fighter, and what happens? Within five minutes the MMA guy gives the venerable “master” a sound thrashing, and he loses the match, and his face as well.

It’s not necessarily that this “master” is a fraud. Had he actually been deliberately duping people, he wouldn’t have gone up against the MMA fighter at all, after all. What’s happening is this: Those Tai Chi moves are highly stylized. When someone moves so, their opponents moves just so, an intricate dance internalized by all. The net effect of which is the appearance of some Qi force that knocks people down without even touching. Which of course is complete bull shit, and held up only by force of “culture”.

Likewise, I’d say, all teachings that are held up by the culture, likewise all teachings that, as you say, cannot be apprehended and realized correctly outside of their culture.


---


In fact, another very apt example, just like this Tai Chi thing, would be the shaktipat thing. It's very much a thing in Tantra (Vajrayanic/Buddhistic, as well as the Hindu variety). The "master" directly transmits spiritual merit/power/call-it-what-you-will to the student.

Is that actually a thing? Within the cultural trappings, it kind of works, with the student going into all kinds of raptures and trembling and what have you. But does it work when you take it out of the cultural setting, and do a shaktipat on to a student that's otherwise deserving, but not of that culture, and who's more robustly skeptical of the whole thing?

Much like the Tai Chi thing, the test of the pudding is in taking it outside of its cultural bounds, and then seeing what the eating of it amounts to.


---


Which is not to say that Tai Chi is bullshit, or that Indian music is shallow, or that Indian spirituality isn’t profound. Not at all. I haven’t tried Tai Chi, but I understand it’s pretty cool for general wellness, and not too bad for fighting. And Indian music, that’s …completely lovely. And Indian spirituality, well, it would be silly not to recognize the sheer depth of it, and its breadth as well.

But what I’m saying is this: To assess the true worth of some teaching, some system of knowledge, you actually have to look at its worth in and of itself. Independently of the culture thing. (Again, culture per se is cool. No reason why culture shouldn’t itself be studied, and appreciated. That’s a perfectly valid subject. But then you’re studying the culture, you aren’t studying the “teaching”. What I’m saying is this: That any “teaching”, if it has any real worth, then it must be able to stand on its own two feet, even when the crutch of its native culture is taken away. Otherwise it is no more than an artifact of the culture it arose in, in fact an illusion, not real, not true.)


...You mention Namdharis, um. That word, that term, it's familiar to me, I've heard it before. I may even have read about them, a bit, or heard about them. But I cannot recall anything about them at this time! ...Related to RSSB, and the whole Inner Sound business are they? That sounds interesting! Haven't the time to look it up just now, but I've just now bookmarked the search page for "Namdhari" --- as a reminder to myself, basically --- and I'll make it a point of look up about them a bit. Not necessarily a deep dive, but simply find out a bit about them --- as well as explore, a bit, in what context I'd heard of them, and why that name/term (Namdhari) is familiar to me.

@ AR

>> .... I enjoyed it, and in fact found it kind of oddly soothing.<<

Why AR did it have that effect on you?
THAT is the question.
You reacted to something, something triggered you.
It is NOT the form, but something that was transmitted in that form.

Think of shaking hands with somebody and what it does with you .. some of these interactions are such that instantly you wish never to feel it again and at other times, joy is your share and everything in between. ...The shaking of hands is the form only, the carrier of something else, something immaterial....something beyond words even.

It is my understanding these days, that everything humans do, think about and feel, from the material into the spiritual is all related to ...survival.
Survival is an activity of something IN something.
Survival in natural surroundings
Survival in cultural surroundings etc

Based upon that understanding, it appears to me that all spiritual movements, practices are born from given problems in a given time at a given place. So all existing mystical schools are all regional,, cultural and were at the time an answer for a problem.

As I wrote earlier, Christianity, the teachings of salvation, are related to the suffering of the hebrews under the occupation of the Romans. Without the hebrews suffering from that occupation christianity, would never have existed, never have seen the light of the surface of this earth.

This observation hols, as far as I am concerned for all other worldviews that ever existed and still do exist and will exist in the future.

Understandable, the next step is that all seeking refuge in this or that spiritual practice do so because they have not found the proper answer for a problem they are carrying around. Without that inner pain, suffering or uneasiness NOBODY would ever have any interest in a practice.

As said so often .. it all starts and ends IN THE HOUSE, they key for what we do, think and feel is to be found THERE and nowhere else.

Back to the the remark about understanding RSSB etc ... it is simple, the sant traditions are also labeled as BHAKTI YOGA .. what does bhakti mean other that devotion towards, love for etc. The master is not the goal, but the means towards that goal of developing that inner attitude in life.
IF you look to the body language shown in the video of the guru, it will tell you that he does not stand in need of anything from his students, he only OFFERS the opportunity for the student to train his receptivity etc etc.
It is an act of balance, the guru cannot react indifference, nor can he have interest .. the way out is having interest, care for his students, forgetting about himself.

it might seem as strange jump but what follows is directly related to what I INTENT to point at but which I can never show to you.
The female Ultra runner by the name of Courtney Dauwalter is known as a utra runner and she will think of herself as such but to me she is a YOGINI. The difference between the traditional yogini and this athlete is just the form, the means, the vehicle.
If you care to listen to some of the interviews with her to be found on Youtube, and you do not look upon the finger of her being an athlete and you whatch her face and eyes, you will understand that what she is doing has nothing realy nothing to do with the body and with winning races ..

To summarize, Nobody outside Japan will ever be able to practice ZEN, understand it properly as he or she has not an conditioned japanese brain.

For the solutions in life in general and particular the west has excluded spirituality as it is to be found in the est etc.

When MCS was asked whether we have masters and saints in these parts of the world he said ... yes of course but they are not recognize in your culture ... AND THAT ... AR ... means that these people do exist and also that they might not even have a clue that they are "masters". Understand it as those born kind people. If you tell them that they are kind they do not know what your are talking about like a fish would not be able to understand that he is living in water.

Well, ...and in my ears rings the voice of the "zen master" asking whether I had my coffee today ... hahaha ... and why did i have my head su fullof all sorts of worldviews that ware alien to my own life .... hahaha and things that were far beyond my capacity to understand, philosophy and quantum mechanics ... hahaha

@ AR

In short

NO culture
No practice.

Scraping the [cultural] form and you are left empty handed.

Everything hapens within the confiments of cultue = mind == conditioning

What is the use of a room a window a dor without a house?

@ AR

The WIKI-page on Namdharis will show you that they stand for many things RSSB stands for and what makes them seen as an sect towards mainstream Sikhism

@ AR

Have some coffee and set you logic aside for a short moment in time

At home people make up their minds to see a movie.

They go to the cinema and Walch the film of their choice, the actors and the kind of drama they wan to see.

In the cinema they are emerge in the drama to such an degree that they have lost the awareness of themselves.

Sometimes. not always for reasons to be understood, some one wakes up, looses contact with the drama of his choice on te screen and refinds himself in the midst of his companions all emerged in their own drama.

He cannot wake them up and he should not, nor can he leave the theater. What can he do but have a look around and pleasure himself with his own curiosity as what there is to see.

At first it is funny to watch his compagnons, Certainly when they are expressing loudly their emotions and he must resist the temptation to say to them... do not cry, it is not real. Knowing they would not like that to be said, he remains mum.

Then why not have a closer look as to how how that drama is created on the screen.

Looking upwards he sees the beam of light that projects on the screen. It is not white it is colored and quickly changing.

He knows about the white light because as a kid he was raised in the same building where the theater was and had often visited the cabine where the huge projector stoot.
The operator had explaine everything to him in great detail. About the light, the pictures on the celluloid, that if transported a the right pace before the lens and the light would create the illusion of movement, so much so that one could lose oneself in it.

Sitting in midst of his compagnons, he realises that there is no fun for any visitor to know that the drama was born from the white light. After all white light is boring as hell ... hahahaha.
Nor is he interested in the whole project behind the drama he perceives. Why should he as it doesn't add or change anything to the drama and the drama after all is what he payed his money for and nobody is going to deprive him from being emerged in that drama.

Than the strange thought arises,..WHAT ... what if one could be in the light, or better said "be the light" ... that would be great fun as at any given moment one would be aware of all the stages of projection, the ongoing changes wtc etc.

There and then he realises that that must be what people like Yolande Duran and Shri Nisargadatta write and speak about .. the mysterious jump into the light, becoming the light.

Unfortunately they can testimony what it is all about, that the jump exists, but they do not know how it came to pas as nobody knows how it is to fall asleep and wake up again at will ...everyday all make these jumps but they cannot jump at will.

Understanding this much nothing remains for the one that woke up to wait for the movie to end and leave the cinema.

That was a lovely post, um.

Of course, you’ve spoken of your movie theater experience a few times before this, as well. Completely fascinating.

I’d be very interested in listening, if you’d care to discuss this in more detail.

You can discuss this in whatever form you like, if you would like to, that is; but here’s some suggestions around which you might want to fashion your further discussion (again, provided you aren’t averse to doing that):


1) Can you discuss what led you to this experience? Was it completely random, completely unrelated to anything prior, as far as you can tell; or did something lead on to this?

(People speak of having arrived at such experience in one of three ways. That is, I’ve both read of third-person accounts that suggest that; as well as directly spoken with a few who’ve had this experience. The three ways are: first, while following a course of spiritual/meditation practice; second, following on some very dire personal crisis; and third, completely spontaneously, and as far as the experiencer can make out, without relation to any prior experiences or events. I was wondering which it might in your case; and if it is one of the first two, then if you’d care to recount what led to it.)


2) Can you talk about that movie theater experience of yours, and of your state of being afterwards, and now, a bit more, and/or a bit differently? That also would make for fascinating reading.

(That particular movie theater metaphor itself is fascinating, and I understand where you’re coming from. That said, this particular metaphor is kind of a trope in a certain kind of spiritual literature: for instance, a recent review of Brian’s discusses that exact metaphor; and in at least two kinds of tradition, Tantra, as well as Theravad, they directly allude to this specific metaphor as a kind of milestone. So where I was coming from is, it would be fascinating if you could discuss all of this in your own words, and without referring to that metaphor. What that experience felt like to you, at that time (as well as what you were actually doing, at that time). As well as what it was like for you after, as distinct from what it was like before, again in your own words and without falling back on that metaphor.)


…Obviously, to the extent you’re comfortable delving into all of that, um. It’s fine if you’d rather not. But if you’d like to talk about it, I’m all ears.


“Have some coffee and set you logic aside for a short moment in time”


Heh, as far as the above, um:

(And I’m keeping this in a separate comment, so as not to take away from my expression of appreciation of your experience itself, and from my invitation to you to talk about it some more, if you’d like to, which is what I limited my previous comment to.)

I was saying, I don’t think there’s any need to “set logic aside” in discussing experiences like these. Absolutely, the experience itself is one that is probably outside of the strict application of logic, and one is indeed called on to “set logic aside”, as you say, while actually experiencing it. But my understanding on this is, that that same thing can be said for any and every experience. To fully experience even something as mundane as …I don’t know, sex? or maybe an absorbing session at the gym? or anything at all, really, that really pulls you in... you do actually end up setting logic aside, that is to say, you end up setting aside your analytical faculty, for a brief space.

But in the recounting of it, and also in the understanding of it, and particularly in the properly putting it in context and fully engaging with what all of it amounts to, one is back to using all of the tools of the mind, logic included. There’s no other way. You may do it unawares, and maybe do it wrong; or you may do it consciously, and try to do it correctly. But you can’t not do it, you just can’t!

You see what I’m saying, um? Even if you don’t talk about it, even if you simply think about it in your own mind, even then you must needs fall back on the mind: the only choice one has, in even thinking about it, is whether to do it unawares and haphazardly and perhaps incorrectly; or to do it deliberately and consciously and as correctly and consistently as one is able to.

----------

Sorry, that was by way of a nitpick! Kind of a tangent, but an important point nevertheless, I think.

Like I said, I wrote this observation in a separate comment, in order to insulate the discussion proper from this nitpick. Let’s now go back to discussing your experience itself, um, if you’d like to, and along the lines I suggested. (And again, while I’m very interested, but I’ll understand if you’d rather not, that’s perfectly fine too.)

@ AR
I just do not know how it came to happen and it is my understanding that all three points you mention are involved ....

AR I have been writing almost half an hour and deleting again and writing again .. I better give in for the moment.

I would have loved to give you the answers you are asking if I could.

I realize this is a very personal thing, and understand that it may not be possible to vocalize it on demand. Whenever you're comfortable doing that, um.

@ AR

Yes, AR .. that is how it is ... and ... to vocalize it in the public domain is also scary as what is "important" to me might not be seen by others that way or even an exaggeration on my part.... lately I have these notions of already gone to far, what causes some back and forth.

Normally here the discussions are around what others do, write etc, that is prety much save as one can and does hide behind another person and what is written can be taken as just an opinion.

To speak freely up from one's own book .. is another affair.

Yolande Duran Serrano is one of the very few, i know of at least, that does speak up about what it means to her. Normally teachers never say a word. They cannot , they will not, the just have nothing to say out of themselves and ... THEY JUST DO NOT DO IT .. They speak but say nothing what is in the experience for gftemselves.

They address the questions of OTHERS that are put before them or they hide behind lecturing, what previous teachers wrote etc

Probably that is also the right way to do ... one should not speak in public about what is private ultemately ... EXPERIENCE

I posted this link in another thread earlier today:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8170481/

I first read this a few years ago, so re-read it again just now. What a fantastic article, very deep insights into the human element of the Israel - Palestine conflict.

Whilst there's some very interesting discussions and references to a variety of studies on identities and narratives, for example, I just wanted to post some lengthy extracts from the Ayahuasca experiences themselves, as I think these are not only the most revelatory, but also potentially a clue as to what kind of medicines are needed to heal these communities. I know I have an obvious bias here, but I can't help but think, especially in context of the predominant subject matter of this blog, that the following quotes of experiences are profoundly revealing. Hope the long copy & paste is acceptable in the open thread, especially given the nature of the insights being discussed:

Unity-Based Connection
During the ceremonies, a common event that occurred to individuals, or to the group, was to relate to each other beyond local collective identities (Palestinian, Israeli, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, etc.), and based on shared universal similarities (18/31). Interviewees described this as moments of ‘unity,’ ‘oneness,’ or as a strong sense of ‘togetherness.’

There is, however, a multilocality to these events, in that they occur both in the individual and between them in terms of group relations. Moreover, they resemble in their description many other ritual processes that have been reported without the use of psychedelics (Turner, 1969/2017), which are known to happen with psychedelics as well (Kettner et al., 2021). Descriptions of this theme were relatively homogenous across interviewees, and this theme is well-documented within psychedelic research and culture. Therefore, we decided not to expand on it compared to the other themes, and we chose only a few examples.

Jewish Israeli woman: “[We] really experienced this place in which the connection is not Israel-Palestinian, it is human, the human tribe.”

Arab-Palestinian woman from Israel: “You reach that point when you don’t see this as Jewish or Arabic … there’s nothing, no language, no religion, no gender, nothing.”

Arab-Palestinian man from West-Bank: “I now enjoy doing it with Palestinians and Israelis because when the journey starts, everything just goes into a state of Unity, to the energy that exists between us. We stop viewing each other as you’re Israeli, or you are Palestinian. We stop viewing each other as male or female. We don’t view Muslim, Christian, it all melts, like melts down, and dissolves through the journey.”

Jewish-Israeli woman: “as soon as people take the medicine and they open up to a more universal consciousness they are operating more on a soul level as opposed to an ego personality level. So as soon as they go up to their soul level the boundaries dissolve and you go back to I'm human and were all one and were connected and the heart opens. And you're just present for the other people and you're connected on a deep deep level. All the other stuff is just the illusion of separation and it's like ego and you just get past that briefly.”

Go to:
Recognition and Difference-Based Connection
Though most of the interviewees believe in the importance of universal connection beyond identity, most of them also reported a connection to ‘the Other’ based on ‘non-universal’ local identities (21/31). In most cases, this was an important transformative moment during the ceremony, which, for instance, was expressed by a Jewish-Israeli man as: “when you finally said this one thing that you wanted to say, 3 h into a discussion, but you were too afraid to say it, and if it’s going well, it’s like something is missing and then suddenly nothing is missing and there is this sense of peace … Suddenly you breathe easier.” As the ceremonies’ interpretive framework is considered ‘apolitical’ and ‘universal’ (beyond national and political identities) – much in alignment with the Israeli new-age ethos (Simchai, 2009) - it can exclude conflictual political discourse around national identities. This is a phenomenon that was observed in many interfaith dialogue groups which are searching for spiritual and religious connection and harmony, in an ‘apolitical’ manner, and therefore marginalize discussions on the need for political liberation (Abu-Nimer et al., 2007). When political reality ‘leaks’ into the ceremony through these moments of recognition, it is sometimes associated with a feeling of relief or awe, as what was consciously or unconsciously excluded, is now included. Awe is associated with the need to accommodate novel information which overwhelms existing mental structures (Keltner and Haidt, 2003), and therefore likely to be felt in moments of transformative recognition.

Most of the events shared by interviewees were moments in which Jewish-Israelis recognize and connect to elements of Arab-Palestinian culture and history. Power balance was asymmetric both outside of the ceremony, and in the ceremony. Within the ceremonies, most of the participants were aware of this power imbalance not just because of the small number of Palestinian participants, but also because of the Hebrew language, the particular fashion, the cultural capital, and accessibility to ayahuasca. In some ceremonies, Palestinian participants sat as one group, and were perceived – by themselves and others - as a ‘separate’ unit. Therefore, active participation of Arab-Palestinians - besides creating an opportunity for Jewish participants to connect to Palestinian culture - sometimes led to the recognition of this power imbalance, which in many cases led to inclusion as well.

Most commonly, this type of recognition was facilitated through music or prayers in which the ‘frequency’ or ‘vibration’ of each language was noticeable. Important to note, though, that this type of connection was not immediate. Many participants expressed that in initial encounters, listening to the language and songs of ‘the Other’ created resistance, fear, and anger – yet, working through these emotions was impactful.

Arab-Palestinian woman from Israel: “There is resistance to anything Arab, be it the language, be it a person. Although they like the Hummus. So I want to bring it through the singing, through a frequency that will touch somehow. Up ‘till now, many have told me they like my singing. They ask “will you sing to us in the night?” they like it. They feel it opens for them. Whether it’s a difficulty or a good thing, it helps them, to see. At first, there might be resistance - that releases things inside. It might cleanse, through laughter, through tears. They understand through the resistance and the journey they go through the night that it does them good.

Jewish-Israeli woman: “You can feel the energy is tense, but again – this is part of the work. After all, it is necessary for us to enter the uncomfortable and ‘dark’ places, and that will create resistance.”

Connection Through Music or Prayer
As participants were able to express themselves, including their identities and background, through music, the ceremony became a space in which intercultural and interfaith exchange occurred, and this was intensified by ayahuasca. This allowed a strong recognition and appreciation of the spiritual qualities of the other culture, and it also allowed participants to feel comfortable and safe in the ceremony while listening to music from their own culture.

Arab-Palestinian woman from Israel: “It’s amazing. And it stays with them. That I feel in the language of my present origin, I am an Arab now, Arabic is my mother tongue. I sing from the source so it really reaches everyone. I can feel that I sing from a full connection. I feel everyone rises, I open another gate … I see there is an awakening. Something opens”

Jewish-Israeli man: “Arabic singing opened the hearts of Hebrew people who were in the circle, female songs of Arab women which open very powerful gates in the mind of Jewish people. At the level of readiness for peace and the enabling of peace, internal and external. A place opens in the heart to Arab culture, another aspect of its beauty”

Jewish-Israeli woman: “Calm. Calm. Everybody cried, everybody was very moved, by the beauty, the voice. But also the simple connection. Wow, it was very moving, the singing. The laughter … He began to sing, one of the most beautiful voices I have ever heard. In Arabic. There was silence. Ceremonies are quiet, the ones I go to. But here there was a pshhhoo, like a connection, a listening, crying. Lots of people cried. It was very moving.”

Jewish-Israeli non-binary person: “[The song touched me] in the place where there is fear to hear, the old pattern that says ‘oh they are singing in Arabic that’s frightening.’- that’s healing! So then you say “Wow, who did this to me, who took away my ability to enjoy that healing all these years.”

Arab-Palestinian woman from Israel: “In the beginning I used to criticize the idea - they used to read a lot from the Torah. So I used to put on the Quran - we also have a culture we want to share. And I remember the tears.”

Connection Through Paraverbal Qualities of Each Language
Many interviewees describe the importance of listening to ‘the Other’s’ language and learning to enjoy it. Some described that each language has its own ‘frequency’ or ‘vibration’ and creates different visual imagery while listening to it.

Jewish-Israeli man: “Suddenly you hear the language you most hated, maybe the only language you really hated, and suddenly it is sending you into love and light, and that's the way it always is. Whatever the song, whatever the words, you melt- that's it that's our peace, to sit and listen to a song in Arabic, that's peace.”

Arab-Palestinian woman from Israel: “The frequency of the words and the letters and also where the person is singing from - it affects the listeners, who understand nothing of the letters or the words but they feel the frequency, and it’s like wow, who is singing, what is this?”

Arab-Palestinian man from Israel “[…] it’s more of a challenge, to enter the Hebrew language, or a language I don’t understand. And that was in the beginning before I paid attention to the vibration behind the meaning of the word. Because the meaning of the word, like every word, can be perceived positively or negatively. I learned that the heart of the word is how I receive it not how it was meant.”

Experiencing Awe and Silence
Different interviewees described these moments of recognition as moments of ‘expansion’ or ‘opening,’ which in many occasions, comes with silent attention during and/or after. Some describe these moments like those in which the group moves from being each one in his individual process to being aware of the rest of the group. These qualities of ‘expansion,’ or silence, emphasize the importance of these moments, and the feeling of reverence and awe which they bring. In the local jargon, ‘expansion’ (Hitrachvot, התרחבות) also means a moment of shared or communal processes. Interviewees’ suggest that the feeling of awe which is associated with these moments of recognition brings hope to participants as if ‘peace was felt in the air.’

Jewish-Israeli man: “[..] every time a Jew would sing a religious song or an Arab would sing in Arabic, there was a big wow, but silent. Nobody would say, how lovely, a song in Arabic. Nobody would point out that something from outside had happened. There was a moment in which [the Shaman] sang a song in Hebrew or something religious in Arabic, and when he finished one of the Arabs said ’wow, you Jews know something.’ Like, you also got it, you got the groove.”

Jewish Israeli man: “Suddenly everything becomes silent and everyone is exhilarated. When someone sings in Arabic, I don’t know what happens in the individual processes but I do sense something powerful happening in the space.”

Jewish-Israeli Woman: “When someone is saying ‘Allahu Akber’ in a ceremony, one can feel how the room is flooded with love and how people burst the limits of their normal consciousness and connect to something beyond … It is a moment of great expansion – when we are in a group in a moment that takes us away from our regular frameworks, from our regular life, and transcends us to another insight, and puts in the container something that was there but that we didn’t pay attention to – and suddenly when everyone feels it and connects to more truth, to more love, then it expands the container of the group. This is a huge process of healing in my opinion”

Go to:
Conflict-Related Revelations
Many interviewees reported experiencing some form of collective trauma and grief (15/31). Importantly, although half of the interviewees reported these events, interviewees considered them rare and they occurred only once or twice within a practice which extended over many, often dozens of, ceremonies. These events usually consisted of visionary mental content, though sometimes they were through other cognitive and emotional processes such as moments of insights and catharsis. These events were sometimes related to autobiographical memories, or to more collective elements like the land or historical events. In most cases, interviewees reported that the presence of ‘the Other’ in the ceremony, or the location of the ceremony, are what triggered these mental images and processes, a notion which highlights the multilocality of these processes. Unlike Unity-Based connection which was related to ‘core-humanity’ and universality of identities, these revelations emphasize the history and local identities related to the conflict. In some cases, revelations inspired participants to want to share the message from the ‘vision’ to the rest of the group. Sometimes this was accomplished by singing to the group immediately after the ‘vision’ or during it. Interviewees reported that by doing so they attempted to reveal something and ‘bring some truth’ to the rest of the group.

Collective and Intergenerational Revelations
Some interviewees reported experiencing collective trauma and pain related to the conflict, and some also reported intergenerational traumatic revelations. These experiences are defined as being understood as relating to past traumatic, collective, and historical events.

Jewish-Israeli man, describing an experience which was triggered by a woman singing in Spanish about motherhood: “Suddenly I feel for the first time that I can connect with all the fathers who lost a child in the war, in the conflict here … Suddenly I had this thought and it was also my first cry-in-public in a ceremony.” (this Israeli participant came from a strong left-wing background and said that he never before empathized with soldiers or their families as he was opposing the army).

Arab-Palestinian man from Israel: “[We were in (a Jewish village)], it’s an Arab village whose people were deported, and there is a [Muslim] cemetery which is probably that of those village people. And we drank and I decided to have this trip outdoors … then I began - I will never forget it - to see people rise up from the graves. Arabs. Locals … they are walking to the bus, and I start screaming to them “come back, it’s OK, no one will kill you, we are here!” and they can’t hear me. It was a very difficult moment. I see them on their way to Lebanon, just like I learned, like what I read about all my life, and I yelled to them and it didn’t help, they went … it was very, very sad. And the absurd thing is that the person comforting me is this Jewish guy (laughs).”

The same Arab man reported another ‘vision,’ which he reported as one of the most transformative events in his life, and considered this to be one of the most important experiences he had with ayahuasca. He was educated in the Jewish-Israeli educational system and considered himself to be ‘brain-washed’ up to this moment (before this he supported right-wing Israeli governments – which is unusual for an Arab-Palestinian). In both of his experiences, the visionary mental content was triggered by and related to the location of the ceremony.

An interesting moment was the first ceremony in [a Jewish city in Northern Israel] in an Arab house with a [Jewish] religious family living in it (in Israel many homes once belonged to Arab families who were forced to flee during the 1948 war. Israelis, most often Jews, live in them these days)… I went outside [and sat under a vine tree which reminded me of my grandfather’s house] and suddenly I had a very strong vision. I see - there was a balcony- and these are houses like my grandfather’s in the village, old Arab houses. And there it hit me. It hit me and I began to see, I saw the [former] owners - an old man like my grandfather and an old woman like my grandmother with a scarf on her head, I started to interview them, we started a dialogue. And that talk, today I describe it as it washed out all the brainwashing I had gone through as a teenager, all of the Israeli school, and the youth movements … I connected to being Arab, and it was a serious shock for me … [They were] old, with traditional Arab clothes, head scarfs and all that. They were good people, they caressed with their words. The woman mainly spoke. She said “I know you went to an Israeli school, that you hate everything to do with Arabs and Arab things, and you have anger and this and that. But the story is different. You heard one side but you haven’t heard our side. You are in our house now, and we are not here. We were evicted … and that’s when all the things began to evaporate. But it didn’t take me to the other side, didn’t make me hate the other side.”

When the above ‘vision’ ended, he returned to the group, angry at himself, and started singing in Arabic in order to disrupt the ceremony. The shaman then invited him to sit next to him, and started to sing Lebanese songs of Fairuz and other folklore. At that moment “everybody gets up and is dancing and hugging.” The multilocality of this event is highly diverse: it took place in an old Arab-Palestinian house which is now owned by Jewish people in a religious town, and the music was Hebrew. There was a vine tree that reminded him of his grandfather, and this ‘vision’ of historical trauma was related to his collective identity. After his ‘vision’ ended, he intervened in the ceremony process, – an intervention which emphasized collective identities of all participants and which eventually enhanced the intercultural connection and the recognition of historical injustice.

Seeing the Other Side
Some interviewees described moments of strong empathy with the trauma of ‘the Other,’ and sometimes this was in the form of a visionary mental content.

Arab-Palestinian man from West-Bank: “I had this weird experience of being in the body of an Israeli soldier. It was like seconds of experience – the whole experience was the eye coming down to look for shooting and as the trigger is pulled, that’s it, there is no seeing after…..I could feel him after, this is painful, this is not an easy life after.”

Arab-Palestinian woman from Israel, describing a vision of a past life as a Jew: “But in this past life, my brothers and sisters were Jewish, and I died in the war, and I saw myself in this Cycle, in 1918 I was a Jewish fighter, I saw myself and they killed me.”

Jewish-Israeli man, who was in an elite combat unit in the past, describes a vision in which he sees himself doing a house arrest and then re-experience everything from the side of the Palestinian family. The vision is triggered by a group of Palestinians which cry in the ceremony: “I heard him cry, they were all sitting together, suddenly the Ayahuasca showed me them as a separate unit within us and they began, another one began to cry, and it took me automatically to the madness of the pain of a whole people, I could see it, it was clear to me that they weren’t like weeping because they remembered a dead aunt or something, they are weeping the pain of their people, and I am connected to that pain. I caused the pain of their people, I began to break, I couldn’t stand to hear them crying and she (the Ayahuasca) began showing me so much, I can't describe it visually, just this crazy pain and hate and crying for the evil they experienced, and it built up and up till there was a cut. It was one of the most powerful experiences I had, in which Ayahuasca took me and put me in a situation that seemed quite real to me and separate from the room I was sitting in - I get Goosebumps just thinking about it. I just saw myself in a jeep on the way to an arrest ... I see me entering with my officer, and we close on the house and start making announcements to get the person out of the house, and what happens is that the door opens, we see an entire family sitting in the living room and screaming and banging and someone trying to run, and you just go into the house and catch everyone there, sit them down, try to find him out … In total hysteria and panic we manage to get him into the car, get out, the arrest is over and we turn him over to some GSS investigator. And this is exactly what the Ayahuasca is showing me, and as it is over, and when we get out of the car with him there is a cut. And now I'm just sitting with them in the living room. It like went back in time, I am sitting with the family in the living room and I see them drink coffee, talking and laughing, the grandfather plays with his grandson, they're happy, the TV is in the corner. And everything is good, then suddenly there is pounding at the door, it was very weird, I don’t understand what's happening, I see the guy I'm supposed to arrest running from the room, then the grandmother or someone opens the door, and I see me, like Robocop or something, with a ski mask, I can see my eyes clearly, I look at me and I really freeze in fear, I feel the heartbreak in this second in this room, all that happened in this room in this instant, and the crazy fear people are feeling. Now I am looking at me, and I can't believe I am the person standing there, I look horrible, In my eyes I look like something from a film about Nazis … I really felt the hate towards me build. [I saw myself arresting the guy], leaving, and the door closes, and I stay with them, a broken family whose world has just been destroyed, and I just see the little brothers and it's clear we just raised three generations of terrorists who will definitely hate me, and my eyes in that ski mask might be carved for life in their minds as the eyes of the guy who ruined their life, and it undid me, completely, like I'm almost crying now, it was the first time I felt - I hated myself, deeply I mean, I was angry at myself and hated myself and said, it makes no difference, Israel Palestine, whatever, I can't believe I did that.”

When he ‘returned’ from his ‘vision’ back to the ceremony, he reported a moment in which he ‘channeled’ a Hebrew ‘icaro’ (song) to the rest of the group, which addressed the ‘sacred’ connection to the land. The interviewee was aware that the word ‘channeling’ is sometimes used inauthentically, but stated that in his experience, he actually felt that way. He reported that it felt like he had no choice but to sing, and that this moment felt uncontrollable. He considers the song part of a continuous process from the ‘vision.’ He sang with full confidence, as a “preacher-man”, and felt that “truth came out of [him]” when he sang. The words of the song emphasize recognition and connection to the land (from Hebrew): “My place on the land is sacred; water and sky – here my voice is heard; and around me the great spirit”. The song reduced his self-hatred, which had been induced by the ‘vision,’ and released tension in the group. This was the first time he sang a song in a ceremony. He considered this event to be a strong, personal, transformative moment in relation to the conflict; for example, afterward, he started to study Arabic. Others who participated in this ceremony also describe this ceremony as very transformative in healing the relations between Jewish Israelis and Palestinians who were together in the ceremony.

A Palestinian who attended this event, and was part of the Palestinian group crying together, reported that it was not a Palestinian who started their collective cry, but their other Israeli friend who sat next to them and was processing his own traumatic experience from the army, and they cried with him (ambivalently), as they knew his history in the army. Again, the multilocality of this story is evident – an Israeli cries about his army-related trauma, this moved his Palestinian friends to cry as well, this collective cry triggered a ‘vision’ in another Israeli, the ‘vision’ is experienced from both sides in the conflict, after the ‘vision’ ends, he sang a song to the group which channeled ‘emancipatory truth’ and released the tension.

Seeing the Pain of the Land
Multiple Palestinian women described intense visionary revelations related to the pain of the land, in which there is a description of bloodshed into the land.

Arab-Palestinian woman from Israel, in a women-only ceremony: “I could feel what the earth feels, what it hurts, what it needs. There was a moment where all the women sang together (this occurred in a women circle), sacred songs that I did not know the words to, but the tone and the singing and the female voice, and like this I simply got connected to the earth and I saw it absorbed with blood under us, and I realized that she was suffering and she was asking for healing, and I saw the female-singing drying the blood out of the ground, and I started to act as if I’m leading and I asked to “continue and continue! enormous healing is taking place, which I see and feel”. In some moment they stopped singing and I told them “please continue, continue” and they all burst in laughter – not understanding what is up with me.”

The next example demonstrates again how conflict-related revelations can sometimes inspire the need to deliver the message to the rest of the group.

Arab-Palestinian woman from Israel: “It was on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement, the holiest day in Judaism), and out of me came the opening paragraph of the Quran … and another frequency opened up, and I understood how much pain is in Pachamamma, mother Earth, how it hurts her all the red in this country, the blood. How much pain, how much anger. When I sang it I was fully present, no right or left, it came from my centre, in a voice of - I can’t say in the voice of God - but in the voice of a messenger, listen and awaken, there is a battle here between light and dark. The dark is growing more than the light, so understand where we are now. Even the shaman that night said to me “wow, you went so high”, and from there something opened. In that session they were vomiting and when I was done, they said we have to talk to you in the morning and they said how their understanding grew, we are not here just to … I felt each one, each and every one, where he was, with his fears and his doubt, and his ego, where he is, the net each person places himself in. The defense of the illusion. There are defenses, yes. We arrived protected, what are you afraid of. I will not forget this session. There was something of - understand, understand. And it came through me... it was a very strong vision, very painful, and after that I couldn’t stop crying”

Well Manjit maybe if the leadership would participate in these ceremonies, we might derive some hope from it.

Otherwise

The mystic narrative tells us that it is impossible to change the " la condition humaine"..... It has been called a "vale ot tears". It has always been so, as history books tell us and it will be so forever

And Manjit ... doing and a chinese standing stiil meditation while looking at TV a tough arose in my mind that has not haden't made itself seen for quite a while ....

Do not dabble in politics!

wave collapse -----> consciousness

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andreamorris/2023/10/23/testing-a-time-jumping-multiverse-killing-consciousness-spawning-theory-of-reality/

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a45574179/architecture-of-consciousness/

For .....BRIAN, AR, SPENCE and other people with a "chess mind"

Go directly to the CONCLUSION:

https://pubs.aip.org/aip/adv/article/13/10/105308/2915332/The-second-law-of-infodynamics-and-its

Hi Um:

I'm sorry but the author is a little confused.
They are discussing entropy of information but confusing this with the natural decay of physical disk and memory hardware.

They write:
"However, there is no mechanism that would result in spontaneous information being created without external intervention"

No, this happens all the time in both natural and artificial systems. For example, in the author's research, he does not address the background signals within systems that arise whenever memory storage or retrieval takes place. It's considered "noise" in the system. In an natural system that noise can lead to random events and even catastrophic ones, from the perspective of the user.

But the author is speaking only as a user of a fixed, static artificial system that was austensibly designed to perform defined tasks, not to expand or change into something else. Overall, those effects of heat, friction and atomic interaction appear as wear and entropy.

But in our universe, in quantum world, and in the genetic world, they create variation which results in changes in the formation of matter from existing energy (through gravitational forces) and in organic creatures (through natural genetic variation), and these, over time, result in adaptations to the environment that are the basis for our survival and the birth of stars. The black hole that appears to consume everything becomes the birthplace of other stars.

With Quantum computing those very random - appearing interactions are the basis for huge amounts of memory storage and computing capacity within a sub-atomic space that was heretofore unavailable.

When you design a fixed and static system to do one thing, all the other natural forces that are part and parcel of any physical system will seem to wear it down and you may wrongly conclude that entropy is always the result of any system of information.

But when you allow that system to adapt and grow, to incorporate the variations of time and wear, for example, those very natural forces will also interact and reform into new things, new information, and new planets, and new people.

Short course, the author is interpreting these things from a single static perspective, the designer of a static system, not the natural and unpredictable interactions that actually occur in a living system and create adaptability, survival and mastery...when such systems are living.

"Information cannot be created nor destroyed but merely transformed."

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/29175/why-is-information-indestructible

and

https://van.physics.illinois.edu/ask/listing/24045

And from Wikipedia:

"In physics, conservation laws play important roles. For example, the law of conservation of energy states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant. It can neither increase nor decrease without coming in contact with an external system. If we consider the whole universe as a closed system, the total amount of energy always remains the same. However, the form of energy keeps changing. One may wonder if there is any such law for the conservation of information. In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted perfectly. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information should mean that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. But the no-hiding theorem is a more general proof of conservation of quantum information which originates from the proof of conservation of wave function in quantum theory. It may be noted that the conservation of entropy holds for a quantum system undergoing unitary time evolution and if entropy represents information in quantum theory, then it is believed then that information should somehow be conserved. For example, one can prove that pure states remain pure states and probabilistic combination of pure states (called as mixed states) remain mixed states under unitary evolution. However, it was never proved that if the probability amplitude disappears from one system, it will reappear in another system. Now, using the no-hiding theorem one can make a precise statement. One may say that as energy keeps changing its form, the wave function keep moving from one Hilbert space to another Hilbert space. Since the wave function contains all the relevant information about a physical system, the conservation of wave function is tantamount to conservation of quantum information."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-hiding_theorem#:~:text=In%20the%20quantum%20world%2C%20however,and%20the%20no%2Ddeleting%20theorem.

Further, Um,
In the original Author's examples from genetics, they are cherry-picking the time frame within which they look at variations. Yes, most of the time genetic code is paring down sequencing, but over longer periods it adds and builds sequences. The author uses research that is only within a very limited time window, rather than sequences reviewed over a period of years. Whereas genetic codes break down, so that strings break, it is often mutated to other new things that, in the short term, can become cancerous.

Similarly, in the Cosmology information he provides he is discussing how entropy takes place. The dispersal of energy and information. But that is only one mechanism, one part of the system. He is not discussing the birth of planets or the coalition of energy fields.

The author presumes the second law of thermodynamics is only about entropy, not about the coalition of field energy into higher energy states, and under the action of gravitational fields, into matter.

None of this supports the notion that we are living in a simulation, but instead that the author is defining a simulation based upon his understanding of reality.

In a simulation, any amount of energy can be created de novo. And there is no entropy unless the programmer builds it in specifically.

Not so in a physical reality.

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