If art is separate from an artist, is a guru separate from their message?

In a recent issue of TIME magazine (May 8/May 15, 2023) there was an interesting story by Stephanie Zacharek, "What Lies Beneath: Grappling with how to approach great works of art by bad men in the book Monsters: A Fan's Dilemma."

It got me to thinking about a roughly parallel question in the realm of religion and spirituality. Can the message of a guru be separated from how they behave as a person? Before I describe how I see this question, here's how the TIME story starts out.

You, me, and everyone we know: whether you're aware of it or not, you're in a relationship with a monster. 

There is surely some artist whose behavior, known to you or otherwise, is scurrilous, reprehensible, possibly worthy of life imprisonment -- and yet you continue to love the work of that artist, defiantly, secretly, or in ignorant bliss.

More often than not, it's brilliant men who get a pass when it comes to how they behave in everyday life. And so, when it comes to laying blame for these conflicts that roil inside us -- can I still watch Woody Allen's Annie Hall and not feel dirty? Is it wrong to feel a frisson of joy as I gaze at the aggressive angles of Pablo Picasso's Les Demoiselles D'Avignon? -- the bottom line is that it's men's fault. Why do they have to spoil everything?

And yet -- with her exhilarating book Monsters: A Fan's Dilemma, essayist and critic Claire Dederer holds a small lantern aloft in the darkness. Is it possible to ever separate the art from the artist? And if not, is it possible to find the sweet spot between our rage and our rapture?

Those are just some of the questions Dederer both raises and responds to in Monsters, though this isn't so much a book of solutions as it is an examination of how we approach the art we love. Because the more deeply we engage with art, the more troubled we're likely to be over the sins of the people who make it.

In my case, I find it easy to separate an artist from his art.

But I realize this may be more difficult for women, since often a male artist gets into trouble for sexual misbehaving. I can't recall what Kevin Spacey did (sex with an underage male?) that led him to be ostracized by Hollywood, but whatever it was, my enjoyment of him in the House of Cards series is undiminished. 

When we enter the realm of religion, though, it becomes much more difficult to separate the messenger from his message. If a priest is sexually abusing an altar boy, almost everybody would say that no matter how good a priest he is, he needs to be dismissed from the Catholic Church and criminally charged.

Because for 35 years I was a member of an India-based religious organization -- Radha Soami Satsang Beas -- headed up by a guru, I find the messenger vs. message thing most interesting when it comes to a guru who, according to the RSSB teachings, is viewed as God in Human Form.

The current RSSB guru is Gurinder Singh Dhillon. He's been accused of making death threats and is deeply embroiled in a large-scale financial fraud mess involving his relatives, Malvinder and Shivinder Singh. Dhillon also has done other things that are, at the least, questionable for anyone believed to be Godly, if not a manifestation of God.

Yet Dhillon is a charismatic speaker and a beloved spiritual guide to hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of RSSB followers. So in this case, is it possible to separate Dhillon's religious artistry from his worldly behavior?

I think not. Here's why.

An actor is distinct from the roles he plays. A painter is distinct from the paintings he creates. But a guru who acts in a way that's contrary to the message of his teaching -- this strikes me as a different situation.

For while in Christianity it is accepted that all are sinners before God, clergy included, so failings are to be expected, in RSSB, as in other guru-centered faiths, the guru is considered to be the living embodiment of the teachings. Meaning, if the guru is deeply flawed, so is his message.

This helps explain why so many devotees of Radha Soami Satsang Beas go to great lengths to deny that the RSSB guru has done anything wrong, even though much evidence points in that direction. For if Gurinder Singh Dhillon isn't living in accord with the RSSB teachings, this strikes a serious blow at the validity of those teachings.

Comments

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian
You wrote
"For if Gurinder Singh Dhillon isn't living in accord with the RSSB teachings, this strikes a serious blow at the validity of those teachings."

No this isn't actually a logical statement. Physics is physics regardless of what book you learn it from.

Lots of students have a terrible time with physics. Even while the physics teacher is wonderful. The student may change their major and their teacher because they just can't get it. But it doesn't change the truth of the science of physics. Nor the quality of the teacher.

The consideration of your teacher, who you choose to accept as your teacher is a serious consideration. We want teachers we can believe in as people. We want nice teachers, loving teachers, kind teachers That's a very natural expectation. And we don't want to support harm in any way. Those are important considerations. That's why we have a court system, a justice system. It is to protect the innocent, even the accused who are innocent.

But what is most important is whether the teacher is effective in helping us learn the teachings.

Kensho, the painful moment of awareness, may be brought about in a painful way. The teacher may have done it in purpose! It's a very Zen thing.

You can just make your own determination of whether you like your teacher, whether you are learning from them, and the utility, functionality and validity of the teachings. You can, you to, and you must. Most every follower does this at some point. But they are, actually, entirely separate dimensions, even though, emotionally, we tend to lump them all together.

The Practice of meditation forces you to see these separately, and the influence of your own perspective in these things. And that is all part of seeing more clearly.

And those are more subjective things.

We have to be careful making accusations that aren't actually proven facts, because doing so reflects on our own character.

The teachings about Christ can be taught by anyone. And the range of teachers has been quite varied, as it is with teachers, good and bad, on nearly every subject. But that has nothing to do with the teachings themselves.

We want teachers to be leaders. Nothing wrong with that either.

But what the teacher is and the content of what they teach are two separate things.

You can love the art and not the artist. Or even love the teacher even when their teachings don't work for you. You can love a wonderful writer even when they aren't very good at it. The issue is whether you are supporting someone who is helping the world or hurting people. It's a serious issue.

But that question applies to each of us. In questioning someone publicly what are we doing? Are we helping, hurting, or just expressing something else. A person with a different system of belief may make accusations because they have rejected the teachings. It may have little to do with the teacher. It may just reflect their efforts to support their own preferred system of belief. Which may be why, for example, we don't see too many posts about corrupt Atheists here. But even if we did, as a public service, it wouldn't change or invalidate the philosophy of Atheism one bit.

[um]

There are people, that speak little or when they speak address only the simple things that are at hand in a simple way. Some of them are , charismatic, just to use a word to hint at something.

I had the good fortune to live in close contact with a few of them. It took me quite a while to understand that transmission can be done also without words.

Others are gifted speakers, deep thinkers and they are very helpful in re-arranging thought processes.

Others do inspire people around them. Invite them to go on, take things at hand, help them face fears in sport, climbing for example

The art of playing an instrument, developing an talent, can be based upon an mix of these things, or lean heavily on one of them.

It is well known that if one likes a person the transmission of knowledge etc runs more smoothly.

In transmission of say theoretical musical science, the charisma of the teacher is of less influence and only liking might make a difference.

The teacher-student relation ship in countries as India is perceived quite different than in the west. In the west that relation in general is that of consumers with a shop owner and in rare cases, in very small circles its resembles the style in India

Then a lot depends also on the character of the student. If the student experiences being guided as an unwanted intrusion of mental privacy, to phrase it polity, it might be or become an obstacle as it will raise defense mechanisms in him. Some are more jealous about their ego and freedom and Independence and individuality etc etc than others.

An if students start to use the help as a prop to lean upon, maneuvering oneself in a codependency situation with the teacher, instead of using his help to develop ones own talent, a "wise" teacher might use "The stick" ... hahahaha

[Satnam]

Well explained Brian..really makes sense

@ Spencer
I think you took it wrong what Brian wants to say that If you have blind faith in someone you cannot or don’t want to see anything bad about that person/Organisation.

Even the facts are there but you don’t want to believe in those facts or find the different reason to explain that these facts are not valid

Just take Examples of Ram Rahim, even Court found him Guilty, but his followers still believe in him, and he is still their Hero so whatever facts are truth is in light people will still believe in GSD. People who leave GSD after seeing clearly these facts will be branded as non-believers etc…

Now take examples of Teacher you mentioned…Normal Teachers in education sector are given job due to their qualification and experience and they had to go through a very rigorous selection process to get this position. Also, if they still do something wrong, they will be removed from this role easily. But in many countries Teachers get the job with help of Corruption and connections and keep their job till retirement…their quality is not good, and they play with the future of Children as well. GSD is in this category. Got this role due to family connections and even he involved in many corrupt frauds he will keep his job till end. With the help of Blind believers, Political connections & Power no one will be able to touch him

Now take other philosophical examples of Teacher as a driver. You need to go somewhere and take a Bus/coach. You are very sure that this Bus will take you to your destination as see clearly that it was written on the front of the Bus. You never been to this place before and don’t have any idea where it is. There is total 20 passengers in the bus going to same destination

The Driver seems very nicely dressed and very politely he tells al passengers that he will take everyone to their destination, and it will take 4-5 hours.

After one hour one passenger had a doubt that Driver is taking bus to wrong direction, he raises this issue to the Driver but Driver refused to answer his question, I know where I am going and all passengers do not doubt the Driver and believe in him. The person who raised his voice asked driver to drop him next service station

After dropping that person one more person had a doubt and used his phone GPS to confirm that they are in wrong direction…he raises his voice but again all the Blind believers again refused to see the GPS on his phone and kicked him out from the bus

But you know what happened, those two people where right rest 18 were wrong and the Driver was a criminal and kidnapped the bus with these people. I don’t need to explain what he did with these 18 people

Moral of the story is always used your mind and common sence. Do not ignore the facts which are in front of you
GSD is a driver in this Story and people who left the bus like Brian and many more. GSD refused to answer any of the allegation like that driver and even you try to ask any question during his Satsang they will turn off your mic and kick you out

We can make many stories but just don’t believe in anything Blindly and refused to accept the face. The book also says the same…many believers end up in loosing everything. We had just an example last week in news where many people died with hunger after believing in one man that not to eat anything

If GSD is right, he should answer all the allegation, don’t get excuses to appear in the court. Show his income details publicly ..give the land back to farmers and Govt ( A big chunk of Public land captured in Beas and many other places, l have visited these places personally).

[um]

@ Sat nam

Everybody is resposible for his own life.
If a person is satisfied with adoration of a teacher, well, let him do so.
Others might want to develop their talent.

If a person is satisfied with developing his talent, if THAT was his motive to take classes, in that case, it doesn't matter, that much what a teacher does or does not. In that case having, let us say, friendly feelings towards the teacher will be of some help.

To be honest I just do not get it why there is so much interest, in what GSD does or does not. When I asked for initiation I did so for my own purposes.After all I am not alive to be a follower of anybody, to copy anybody, but to live my own life in my own way..

Some times I have the feeling it is an psychological distraction maneuver in order not to have a proper look in the mirror

[um]

@ Sat Nam e.a

Maybe it is a matter of conditioning, training, education

Ous family had to go through a lengthy court case, from court to court ending in losing the case.in the last court.
Our parents did whatever they could to maintain the right to rent a building that was sought after to be used as the first supermarket in town.
they knew that they were going to lose the case as the interests of the city, the owner of the building and the newly to establish supermarket outweighed those of our parents

After the last sentence of the judge our father never spoke a word about it because he had done what had to be done and was not to blame for anything and remained in peace with what had happened.

Our mother on the other hand went on and on to expressed here feelings about the injustice that had been her share and denouncing all involved.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Satnam
The judgment of a teacher and their teachings is a judgment every intelligent follower makes on a regular basis. That is already happening, and it is natural.

And these are not the same judgement. That is because we live in different situations, and have our own relationship to the teacher and their teachings as well as our own personal behaviors and conditioning. Our thinking and discrimination are each going to be different. Many of us meditate in part to refine that.

From each person's unique perspective, therefore, their judgment is going to be a little different. We all don't have the same information, nor are we at the same place in our development.

So someone chooses to publish their available information and how they experience it, filter and process it. Nothing wrong with that. It is a single opinion.

The idea that we can each draw a different opinion is not only healthy but realistic. We do it already. These are subjective.

We are all in possession of a set of information that may or may not include the view of the publisher.

So it's ok to review anything published and incorporate it.

Not everyone is going to agree with the subjective evaluations of existing information, but everyone can appreciate it, evaluate the quality of that information and how the writer has made their subjective evaluations, and incorporate it into one's own.

I only suggest that we keep in mind this is already happening.

[umami]

Once upon a time I went to a high school reunion and smoked weed for old time's sake. One classmate, a religious type, admonished me, "How many people are murdered in the drug trade? You shouldn't participate."

It's a good reason. Someday I hope to thank him. I'll return the favor: "How many people have been murdered over crude oil? You shouldn't drive a car or fly in airplanes."

[AA]

@ Satnam
Very well said and explained

[Spence Tepper]

Satnam..
Also...
The problem as I see it is in accepting the idea that only one opinion is right, and therefore those who disagree must be wrong or ignorant.

In the world of subjective evaluations, most of whom include at least some objective information, a whole range of opinions are going to be of similar validity, for different reasons.

In the examples you have, the teacher may have passed many tests with flying colors but their behavior towards their weaker students may be subtly unkind. The effect on different students is still going to be varied.. Harm can still be done, even with the best intentions, particularly to very sensitive students.

In the case of the bus driver, they may do a flawless job. But because two passengers know the driver has two relatives who were involved in scandal they get off the bus early in fear and disgust. The other 18 arrive at their destination on time. And the bus driver now must go back for a second trip to get the other two, who are now stranded. And now the bus driver must plead with them as if the driver were guilty when they aren't. That bus driver is more concerned about the safety of those two than they are.

To judge a teacher is complex. But fear not, it is already happening all the time. But our judgments are limited to what we see and our conditioning in how we process that.

Meditation can help put aside emotion and limited thinking so we can capture a more direct and complete understanding.

It is always best to limit judgment to ourselves wherever possible, because we have the most direct and verifiable information. But in all cases we all must struggle to overcome our biases. Meditation can lift us out of them.

[um]

Since 1990 much has changed, not only everything related to sant mat.

There has been an explosion of wealth.
When I grew up I never heard of a billionaire and millionaires were also scarce,
Today it has become the most natural thing in the world.

Many other things have seen an tangent curve development

To curb that explosion of energy and make it flow in a calm benevolent stream is not that simple.

The organisation of the dera's is just an reflection of what is going on in general

The main problem in the near future is not the climate, bio diversity etc etc but to tame the streams of data and information. .. phenomena as influencers is a mere curse for humanity

You cannot judge what is going on in RSSB with standards of the past, standards that were developed hundreds and hundreds years ago and some even thousands.

[Satnam]

@Spencer

What l just said you proved it...Blind believers will find the reason to explain why they are right

Driver was a criminal and those 2 guys were right with facts but 18 blind believers didn't believe in facts and end up in difficult situation

I agree with you that meditation helps human but the benefit is just biological or it has anything to do with God that is a big subject of debate

[um]

@ Sat Nam

Not ONLY the blind believers ... all others too ... hahaha .. even you and I

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Satnam
You wrote
"What l just said you proved it...Blind believers will find the reason to explain why they are right"

Yes, everyone defends their opinion, blind or otherwise.

We are all believers in one thing or another.

"The opposite of one truth may not be false. It may just be another truth."
Niels Bohr (scientist who discovered the design of the atom).

Everyone has their own set of facts, prejudices and opinions. What other view can they have but whatever they have arrived at?

Some believers may be very knowledgeable but process all that information differently.

We can learn from each other with an open mind.

How can we learn in an echo chamber of one single opinion?

Isn't that the very same criticism made of religion?

Why replace one religion with another?

But I have suggested something a little different.

Each of us has our own opinion. And that very fact is sacred. Yet that opinion is a mixed bag, a work in progress.

We can evaluate the quality of any person's information, how they reason, and then arrive at our own. And the results can all be different, each valid for their own reasons.

Knowledge and understanding are always inclusive.

[SantMat64]

First, basic premise: there is no evidence of Gurinder Singh making death threats.
There IS however hearsay testimony by an Indian film maker who says he interpreted a comment from one of the RSSB dera's officials that pursuing a lawsuit against Gurinder would result in karmic retribution.

I've been a member of RS based sects since 1977 (not RSSB, but several sant mat sects). Familiar with these sects teachings, gurus, and their followers, I know that it's an article of faith that in all of them, from MSIA to Eckankar to Ruhani satsang to RSSB to you name it, that those who attack the guru are generating huge negative karma for themselves. That being so, we who freely joined any of these sects chose to underwrite this idea of INDIRECT karmic comeuppance for "attacks" on the guru. That is, though we believed in karma, we also knew that this karmic retribution isn't initiated by the guru or his followers. We knew the guru doesn't rely on jihadis to settle scores, nor was the guru isn't issuing fatwas, or even "who will rid me?" Henry II suggestions to his followers to get even with his enemies.

If that isn't so, then where is even one example of any of the RSSB gurus since Shiv Dayal having any association with violence? There are precisely none.

Back to the filmmaker's allegation: we simply don't know what transpired between him and the Dera official. The filmmaker is simply telling us his impression of a phone conversation. We don't have any actual evidence of a threat made, and certainly none of a harm done. While it's of course very possible that the Dera official was a true believer who felt that Gurinder was God and any disgruntlement with the guru was an invitation for karmic disaster, it's also quite possible that Gurinder really did borrow over 1M from the filmmaker and then ghosted him. Putting myself in the filmmaker's shoes, I can quite imagine his indignation at the situation being met with some sevadar's admonition to just leave the guru alone or God will take it out on you.

And so I think the basic premise of the argument, which equates RSSB with Jihadis, and that Gurinder Singh made death threats, is wrong. We have no evidence of any kind that Gurinder Singh threatened or hurt anyone.

I follow Robert Spencer on Twitter, who chronicles the atrocities committed by Muslims and who in return receives a daily helping of death threats from irate Islamists. Radical religious retribution is a very real thing in this world, but I'm bewildered why Sant Mat is singled out as even marginally guilty of such heinous behavior.

[A fan]

Once upon a time I went to a high school reunion and smoked weed for old time's sake. One classmate, a religious type, admonished me, "How many people are murdered in the drug trade? You shouldn't participate."

It's a good reason. Someday I hope to thank him. I'll return the favor: "How many people have been murdered over crude oil? You shouldn't drive a car or fly in airplanes."

Posted by: umami | May 19, 2023 at 06:16 AM

😆 😆 😆

@unami

I love the way you tackle the heart of the matter in the same way a cat goes about catching a mouse.

[Satnam]

@santmat64
You wrote those who attack the guru are generating huge negative karma for themselves

This is for true Guri..not for fraud so call themselves Gurus

There are many examples where Guru Nanak bright these fake gurus in light

Guru Arjun own brother become guru..so don't you think people who knew criticized him?

I have seen that video where GSD was threatening villagers...as he has big power and police with him so normal villagers were scared..you can see this fear in their voice

I know personally where he was present when Govt land was captured in Beas in midnight
How many shell companies were created and he and his family are on those companies paper

Truth is there but it depends if someone just doesn't want to look on it

Same way ..if we follow your advice then no one should criticized Ram Rahim because criticising Guru will create bad karma's

Guru Nanak and many other Guru's shown a big example that do not be shy away to say wrong is wrong..He himself criticized Babar

I am not sure but someone said GSD edited many books of Swami...Swami was himself a smoker use to smoke Hukka...but RSSB first tried to spread different meanings of Hukka then completely removed this world from books

What l will say that no proof is sufficient in front of Blind faith ...and no blind faith will not be there to show his destiny to other after death

[um]

@ Satnam
As a human being and a citizen you are in a position to evaluate other people against the standards of your community and your self

But that said .. do you consider your self to be in a position to judge whether a person is an real guru or not?

Sant Mat, after Kabir comes with many narratives of guru's not living in correspondence with local mores.

[Brian Hines]

Spence, your comment doesn't fit with the reality of the RSSB teachings. You like to make up your own version of what those teachings are, but the RSSB books tell it like it is. Here's some quotes from Sawan Singh, a previous RSSB guru, termed the "Great Master." These are from his Philosophy of the Masters. They demonstrate that according to the RSSB teachings, the guru is God, so if the guru is flawed, so is God. Looks like God is tied in with massive financial fraud and makes death threats.
-------------------------
"The guru lives like an ordinary human being. He lives in the world but remains unaffected by it. He treats every one lovingly and sympathetically. His love and care is many times greater than a mother. He is a perfect man and has no defects. He takes pity on us despite our faults.

In outward form he is a human being. He is, however, a superman. He is beyond good and evil, and is the most exalted of mean. He is the Lord himself in human form.

...The Master is not distinguishable from the Lord. He is one with Him. How, then, can one be greater than the other? In fact, Saints and the Lord are not different."

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Satnam
You wrote
"I am not sure but someone said GSD edited many books of Swami...Swami was himself a smoker use to smoke Hukka"

You have accepted this as fact. That is your subjective view. That's OK, but let's not confuse belief with fact. Isn't that the very case you are trying to make?

You wrote
"What l will say that no proof is sufficient in front of Blind faith ...and no blind faith will not be there to show his destiny to other after death"

Isn't this what you are doing? Not questioning your own sources and accusing those who do of being 'blind'?

Let's let the facts speak for themselves,

Let's go deeper into your statement about Swam Ji.

Present your source evidence please.

To say "I heard someone say" carries no weight except for you.

I would not be asking this to reject your claim out of hand. I ask to see what the factual basis is for your claim.

Your opinion could be formed by your own biases.

But maybe not.

Let's look at the facts please of your claim re Swami Ji.

[um]

In outward form he is a human being.

O U T W A R D .. is he a H U M A N

So as HUMAN being he can have all flaws you can think of.

[um]

@ Spence

Hahahaha .... that smoking Hukka is certainly an issue, or is made an issue to disqualify
the founder of Sant Mat in agra.

https://www.supremeknowledge.org/radha-soami-satsang/radha-swami-shiv-dayal-ji-used-to-smoke-hookah-tobacco-pipe/

Hahahaa..

[Appreciative Reader]

"An actor is distinct from the roles he plays. A painter is distinct from the paintings he creates. But a guru who acts in a way that's contrary to the message of his teaching -- this strikes me as a different situation.

For while in Christianity it is accepted that all are sinners before God, clergy included, so failings are to be expected, in RSSB, as in other guru-centered faiths, the guru is considered to be the living embodiment of the teachings. Meaning, if the guru is deeply flawed, so is his message."

..........Agreed. Principally because the Pope for instance (as opposed to other, lesser clergy), and even more so the GIHF, command a very different position in the scheme of things they represent than mere artists or technicians or teachers. For a Pope to be caught misappropriating money, for instance, in a way that is very definitely immoral (and possibly illegal as well, but regardless of that last), or a GIHF doing that, would undermine the very foundations of the religions they represent. (And we've already settled, in another thread awhile back, the GIHF question.)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian,
You cited what Sawan Singh wrote:
""The guru lives like an ordinary human being. He lives in the world but remains unaffected by it. He treats every one lovingly and sympathetically. His love and care is many times greater than a mother. He is a perfect man and has no defects. He takes pity on us despite our faults.

"In outward form he is a human being. He is, however, a superman. He is beyond good and evil, and is the most exalted of mean. He is the Lord himself in human form.

"...The Master is not distinguishable from the Lord. He is one with Him. How, then, can one be greater than the other? In fact, Saints and the Lord are not different."

These are beautiful sentiments, and reflect Great Master's love of his own teacher, and the love of his disciples towards him.

But, as you know, there is no requirement to actually believe this, no vow, in order to be initiated and accepted as an official Satsangi.

You don't have to believe it to be a Satsangi, and in fact Sawan Singh wrote as much. In fact he wrote that you can't possibly know this, at least "at our level".

Brian, you already know this. You have chosen to select the facts you use to define your version of Sant Mat.

That's OK. No one can escape filtering what they hear, see or taught into what they choose to believe. It's normal.

You wrote:
"You like to make up your own version of what those teachings are, but the RSSB books tell it like it is."

Yes, we all do this. My view and your view, even Sawan Singh's view, is subjective, from our view.

"Like it is" infers some objective reality. Yes, there is an objective reality, but sadly, the human brain filters all that and the human mind interprets it.

This is why the vows don't require any vow of belief at all, simply vows of committment to practice.

You ignore that half of the equation. Try to formulate a more accurate Brian Hines version by including the additional information I have indicated. It is a verifiable fact that there is no vow requiring belief in anything as a deity. This you can admit should you choose to.

And it is a verifiable fact that the Masters teach us NOT to take anything on faith, except enough trust in the teachings to test the hypothesis for ourselves.

That's a fact, Brian. You know this is true.

Now, what does that mean? It means that each Satsangi's view of the path, outside the vows, depends upon where they are, what they see. That's the way it is, and there is no escape from that, from the subjectivity of this human brain and its human thinking.

So, you have also invented your version of Sant Mat, and while it includes some of the facts of Sant Mat, it leaves others out.

But, so have I. It's inevitable. We didn't set out to do this, it is what we do forming an opinion.

Welcome to the club. And your opinion is as good as anyone else's, but more so for you. Just as is mine for me.

I only suggest we include information and avoid dismissing or deleting information.

[Stay Real]

@Um: "O U T W A R D .. is he a H U M A N
So as HUMAN being he can have all flaws you can think of."

@Brian Hines: "...In outward form he is a human being. He is, however, a superman. He is beyond good and evil, and is the most exalted of mean. He is the Lord himself in human form..."

Um, it seems you didn't read rest of the paragraph indicating..."He is. However, a superman...beyond good and evil...most exalted of mean... he is the Lord himself"

Doesn't that means he, a guru, is a perfect human being per great master?
Also, if there is nothing to hide, why not share the information openly?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um:
I see the photo, but is that proof? He's not smoking. It appears there is a ceremonial pipe in a room surrounded by many people. It may be out of context.

It is suggestive, but no proof of anything. I need to see pipe in mouth and actual smoke. Of course, it could all be photoshopped.

I was hoping for some quote in a Sant Mat book I could verify....or the testimony of first-hand witnesses, etc.

We just have accusations and possibly a photoshopped picture.

But at least, thanks to your link, we can see and evaluate this for ourselves. Yes, a photo exists. That's a piece of information. Real or fake? Yet to be established.

[um]

@ Spence

I am personal not interested in this issue at all. The man in that video reffers to a written book from agra where it says that he smoked hukka.

Sri Nisargadatta was a heavy smoker, and was also often asked to explain how that could fit with his teacchings

IHahaha ... I remember satsangis having problems seeing MCS without turban. There is a kind of disciple, seeker or whatever that cannot handle the Humanness of a guru.
And these gurus can say and explain what they want but these people give a "S..t" about what they say ..it is THEIR guru, THEIR property .. and he has to be as THEY imagine him to be.
If he says that he doesn't know ... they come with all sort of arguments .. to uphold that idea of all-knowingness.
Why not simple accept his words for what they are?

Poor gurus ..

[Donald Hermes]

Well all I can say as Gurinder's soon to be succesor is don't talk about me like that when the time comes . I've been through it all .

[um]

@ Stay real

Yes, yes I did and I have known these issues for several decades.
As said in the reaction to Spence, there is a group of people that just isn't able to handle the human appearance of a guru ...AND ... the do not seem to understand that what they see is NOT the guru as refered to in the teachings.
THAT guru is shabd-rup

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
The point is a little different. That we openly are willing to take a more objective look at things, knowing we are subjective, and not presuming we "know" Truth.

It appears that a few people have a hard time with this whether religious or atheist.

But it is reassuring to see the opposite now and then too.. People struggling to grow, reaching out to understand and not blame, appreciative of different points of view and not threatened by them.

[um]

@ Spence
Sometimes I just do not grasp what others [you] say

Personally I never use these adjectives, objective etc

Nor do I have the intention to grow as I would not know where to go and what to reach.
I just happen to witness processes in myself and others and how they alter over time

We have a saying that translates in English as: "I stood there and I watched it"
That feeling of shifting of " I do it" towards "it happens in me"
Let it happen, go with the flow etc ...maybe even aspects of surrender.

It all happens of its own accord, as he would say, as the cream comes floating on the milk when left alone.

In the mean time one has to act as "if" one is the doer

[Kranvir]

A guru should be what it says on the label , a spiritual MASTER. He should come with a message from god and not pointlessly regurgitate from previous gurus or existing literature. He should be able to give crystal clear clarity not more confusion. He should be consistent and tough. He should tell you the TRUTH, regardless of if it hurts or not, he should shake the world up from the spiders lies.

GURINDER SINGH DHILLON IS NOT A GURU. He relies on you remaining totally confused and has said many times , your confused and so am I in more that one case in his RSSB satsangs - which mockingly means company of the truth. He has shared no personal insight, and in his Q and As you are left with confusion as he makes up the answers or has ready made answers which he repeats like a parrot. He laughs and clowns around at sangat that desperately try to make sense of their pains and suffering. While he goes around womanizing, being a control freak , angry and constantly tries to fill his pockets up with riches. Little do the poor sangat know that this parasitic baba gets a kick out of their suffering. He delves in a kind of satanic practice such as staring at the sangat before he gives his chat which incidentally no other guru has ever done. All he wants the sangat to do is keep repeating the satanic mantra based meditation, the first word of which is jot niranjan, meaning light of the devil; keep doing slavery at the ashrams and never ask any questions and to surrender everything you have and keep quite. Only the special chosen ones are given privileges such as security sevadar , rather like Hitler and his inner evil circle of friends and the SS soldiers that bully the common masses to stay in line.

[um]

@ Kranvir

How do you know what is satanic and what not?
Do meet meet him daily?

How do you know what Gurinder wils?
Do you are on speaking terms

What are the satanic practices?
How are they used?
For what reason?

Is Gurinder the only one on earth that uses them according you?

Based on what can you state who is a guru and who not?
Are you a Guru?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
""I stood there and I watched it"

Magnificent.

[KS]

Why people are mad for many hypocritical ‘babas’ in India?
This is one of those topics which I really want to discuss among people, but at the same time, I get annoyed just by thinking about those hypocritical babas. I wonder and even get surprised, how people can believe these hypocritical babas and treat them as “Gods”.

In recent times, due to social media and press, many of these famous babas or gurus are exposed. People got to know about their negative and dark sides. People are shocked to see these Godmen and Women involved in rape and murder cases. Asharam Bapu, Nirmal, Radhe ma, Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh are some of these Culprit or criminal babas.

Despite all this, still, if any new baba takes avatar people will start believing them blindly.

Why is it so? How can a person trust some random guy who talks sweetly and proclaims himself as a Godman? The bigger surprise is, not only uneducated but also highly qualified and educated people blindly believe them and follow their illogical instructions. Why??

Here are some of the Reasons why people rely on these Fake Babas:

Weak Mindset: Many people get convinced easily by the influence of others. When a friend or a neighbour says, he got some good result, people get carried away and follow the same. People do not believe in themselves or have a weak mind are the main victims.

Good manipulative skills: These Babas come with a business plan and great marketing skills. They maintain a group to market them and with their excellent manipulative skills they attract people. Their staff simply mind-wash and direct people to these fake babas.

Claiming superpowers: These babas or gurus always come up to the society with a common feature of having supernatural powers. They claim to have the power to listen to God’s word, are able to talk to God and get solutions for your problems directly from God. This attracts n everybody runs to watch the miracle of their life and without verifying any details of random baba, they start following them.

Insecurity: Nobody wants to see bad times or want to suffer from problem/difficulties in life. But people also know that it will come at a time and affect them. So, to keep away the bad times and to be secure from the tandems, they go to the babas and simply start praising them.

Media: Media also plays an important role in the marketing of these fake babas. After the news of any new Baba in the city, the press makes them popular by writing about the influential and famous people making visits to their ashrams. This publicity influences the innocent public and makes them believe about the greatness of the so called babas. The Press should be responsible and should not publicize the things only for their ratings.

Drugs in Prasadams: Some of the Babas and their community use drugs in their Prasadams and make people addicted to these drugs. People feel good and happy when they consume these "Prasadams". Due to this reason, they continue their visits thinking that they are feeling peaceful and happy after visiting these Babas. They think that is the power of their spirituality.

[um]

@KS

Good question but you are looking in the wrong direction for an answer.
If you do not understand why people go, you have to ask them and not the one they go to

If you go somewhere, do something .. the motives are to be found INSIDE you and nowhere else.

You speak of "hypocritical" babas and the way you do it makes the impression that YOU consider ALL babas hypocritical and that there are no good or normal babas.

[um]

and ...KS

It might as well be related to age if you want to find an answer.

Let me just make an random suggestion ... if people are younger then say 60, they have no idea what religion is all about and the younger they are the less they understand.

Those older then 60 might be able to answer that why question.

In general .. the more people are convinced that they are able to fulfill all their desires on their own accord, the less they will be inclined to be interested in religious affairs

In the last decades many things, physical, mental, social and cultural have lost in quick tempo their meaning and value. and people have become slave-consumers of quick pleasures, answers etc..

[um]

@ KS

And .. let us not forget that how you write about "babas"doesn't say anything about these babas but all the more about you.

You are just describing how YOU look upon them.

Your interests in them, etc exposes not them but you.

There are endless things people can focus on and you selected these babas to focus on and that focusing has nothing to do with them but with you,

In protest actions in relation to for example abortion, one can find, in both camps men. Not all men, not every man but a certain type of man. The rest never have anything to do with these protest, are not even bothered about abortion unless it is something they have to deal with as an practical, personal issue.

You must have personal interest to focus on babas, do it in your way and last but not least you want others to take notice from it by posting here ... in fact you are doing the same what you blame your baba of... you act in the image of the baba you hate.

[SantMat64]

No comment from Brian Hines or anyone here (zzzzz) on what I wrote previously, so I again take pen in hand.

"The current RSSB guru is Gurinder Singh Dhillon. He's been accused of making death threats and is deeply embroiled in a large-scale financial fraud mess involving his relatives, Malvinder and Shivinder Singh. Dhillon also has done other things that are, at the least, questionable for anyone believed to be Godly, if not a manifestation of God."

But according to this:
https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/03/rssb-guru-made-death-threats-says-india-filmmaker.html

Only 1 person has accused Gurinder of making death threats, and that would be the currently incarcerated Malvinder Singh. According to your report, Malvinder claims that Gurinder, "through his lawyer," threatened Malvinder's life.

No one has stood by Malvinder regarding his view of Gurinder, not even his compatriots who were also sent to prison.

As for Talwar, the Indian filmmaker, he does not accuse Gurinder himself of making death threats.

As for Gurinder being "deeply embroiled" in a legal case, the case went to trial years ago, and Gurinder was not implicated in any crime.

As for Gurinder doing (other) things that are, "at the least," morally questionable, they go unnamed.

What you published is nothing more than baseless character assassination. You can't produce any evidence of Gurinder making death threats, of Gurinder being guilty of financial fraud, or Gurinder guilty of recklessly immoral behavior.

Nevertheless, you are all but stating that all these charges, these really serious and quite capital charges of wrongdoing, are true.

So who is more untruthful with the public. The guru, or you?

[Brian Hines]

SantMat64, there's plenty of evidence that Gurinder Singh Dhillon is far from being the Perfect Living Master RSSB claims him to be. I assembled some of that evidence in a 2022 blog post. Take a look.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2022/07/examples-of-rssb-gurus-authoritarianism.html

[Appreciative Reader]

"As for Gurinder doing (other) things that are, "at the least," morally questionable, they go unnamed."

They don't go unnamed. They've been named, and discussed in full complete detail, time and time again.

You might quibble about legality --- and I'd say they'd only be quibbles, given, well, everything, but admittedly you might present arguments contesting that --- but what is completely unarguable is the morally questionable nature of some of the things he's done and/or is responsible for. Things that no decent honest human being would do and/or be responsible for, leave alone an alleged PLM.

If you follow this blog at all regularly, and I think you do, then you can't possibly be unaware of what all I mean. If you need a specific example to start with, then think of his not-quite-rags-but-fairly-close-relatively-speaking to riches story, him and his sons as well, and those two poor dupes who paid for their blind trust in this godman by having their golden spoon yanked right off of their mouth and thrust deep up their backside.

[Too funny]

“Well all I can say as Gurinder's soon to be succesor is don't talk about me like that when the time comes . I've been through it all .”

Posted by: Donald Hermes | May 19, 2023 at 11:42 AM

😂 😂 😂

Baba Don??

[Myths and Mystics]

RS is an offshoot of Sikhism sort of… with a little Hindu and Buddha thrown in.

Jaimal was meditating for like 17 years in a cave on free haunted land. He might have been smokin a little too—IDK, but he sort of combined a little of this and a little of that to create the RS philosophy. And then he believed he was GIHF and gathered some followers.

The GIHF part is what really sells it. 😂

Come on, it’s a pretty weird story when you think about it.

[um]

A couple of days ago in a program on classic music there was an lengthy interview with an conductor about playing pieces of Wagner.

Part of the interview was focused on the question whether one could play the works of Wagner knowing his sympathy for Nazism and the role his music played in the ideology of the Nazi's. Should playing his music been seen as expression of and propaganda for and evil doctrine.

The conductor explained that it should not. If there was no name attached to the composition, nobody would know who had made it and all would consider it an masterpiece

Next.

If I go to the bakery, what am I going to do there, what is my intention?
To buy myself some bread. And what do I want from the interaction? That the bread is according my taste, at a reasonable price ... and .. that I am treated according normal standards of shopping. It is up to me to decide when these conditions are no longer met and time has come to find myself another bakery.

What if I came to be informed by media and hearsay, that the owner is accused from all sorts of misbehavior and even crimes. In that case it is up to me to decide whether this knowledge does affect my bread and / or the shopping conditions. If I find that each and every-time I go to his shop, my mind cough up thoughts about him and I am not able to get these intrusions in my mind to stop ... the time has come also to consider to wait until clearance is given in some way or just not wait and find another shop to buy bread.

If my interactions with the backer and members of his staff and the clients in the shop had been pleasant, i would be faced with a dilemma. If the intrusions of these unpleasant thoughts would tip the balance ... well .. again I would consider of going elsewhere.

In the mean time .. there would have been no reason for me, whatsoever to take part in the ongoing discussion about the baker and his behavior

After all I go to bakers to buy bread .. I am not an reporter, nor a judge nor anything else but just somebody that wants to eat some bread.

[um]

@ Myths etc

What is there so weird?

All "new" path are the outcome of an ongoing development and the needs in a given time and place within a society.

Christianity, buddhism, islam, in all its divers denominations are all born from tradition.

Sikhism to is related to its own history and born from it. Did not Nanak and kabir spoke up in times of conflict in an attempt to bring a middle path of peace?

There is in that sense nothing special about the birth of a movement in Agra that developed like a tree in Northern India. Beas is just ONE of the many branches ... it suits the needs of its population otherwise it would not have been born.

[Baba Land Grab]

@ RS is an offshoot of Sikhism ?.
Punjab was the last indian sub continent Kingdom to fall to East India Company ( Dissolved 1860 after Calcutta black hole )., , a private company like Google-Amazon Etc, which had its own Private Army ( imagine Google -Amazon having its own Army ). East India company operated from City of London ( not the actual Greater London) One square mile of dot in the centre of London is not part of London is not part of London for centuries .Punjab fell to East India Company in 1847 but Sikhs continued to attack East India Company. To counter this East India Company set up Deras through their employees and teach non-violence. Baba Sawan Singh, Zaimal Singh, Sant Attar Singh and every single Dera head in Punjab was created and funded by East India companyhttps://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=APwXEdeSEdJzS-iCbToayLB1BPdicRM-xg:1684571781890&q=city+of+london+not+part+of+uk&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi71KH1voP_AhWWSEEAHS_bA34Q0pQJegQIChAB&biw=1280&bih=696&dpr=2#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1761836c,vid:LrObZ_HZZUc

[Spence Tepper]

Previewing your Comment
Hi Brian and Appreciative

The difficulty in making a convincing argument is that to do so you must acknowledge the testimony and facts that don't support your conclusion.

But only acknowldging and posting accusations, and dismissing or ignoring alternative views and information, you have convinced yourselves that you are right, that you have gotten hold of objective truth and that your biases have no influence on your thinking. That is a very weak position. It relies on denying the voice of those who disagree with you.

By reprinting the same accusations over and over, heavily laden with interpretation and conjecture, you have convinced yourself. But if that requires dismissing alternate views, it is hopelessly dogmatic and all objectivity is lost. Therefore your conclusion is unlikely to be correct, even though within your argument are facts.

The facts about corruption that do exist, involve his relatives, and in no case has his hand been proven to be involved. Gurinder gave them power over his accounts and his finances and when their own investments began to tank they began laundering funds and illegally inventing circulating loans through invented shell companies to buy time in the hope the market would turn.

What we do have documented is that Gurinder offered to take responsibility for all of it if they would sign the stocks that he had given them to manage, back over to him, which they refused to do.

Accusations abound from different parties about land and construction. He took over a hospital promising not to close it and then closed it. Only to build a new hospital.

He refused to pay the contractor who stopped work in the middle of dismantling the old hospital and hired another contractor. The first contractor insisted he agreed to do the work with the understanding he would be hired to build the new hospital, though no documentation exists confirming this claim.

He closed a long standing free school, only to expand free services and public education at the Dera.

He has been accused of other things, including being unkind, and that in one case one of his representatives threatened a film maker.

At the same time he made the largest temporary COVID hospital in the world and gave thousands free medical care. And he continues to inspire millions to take responsibility for their lives and help each other.

The Dera continues to feed, free of charge, tens of thousands.

I'm not sure why you can't also openly acknowledge the legitimate weaknesses in your own argument (lack of corroborating witnesses and documentation) nor the reasonable points made by others.

It's a dualistic style of thinking, one that was popular several decades ago but now, in a pluralistic society, antiquated and transparently biased.

You have been unable to acknowledge that the teachings also include not taking things on blind faith but confirming through meditation practice for ourselves.

You have also been unable to acknowledge the fact that no vow of belief in any deity is required, unlike most other religions. In fact an atheist can become a Satsangi. You have dismissed the testimony of others that they did not actually hold a belief in the Master as being perfect when they were initiated, and that such belief wasn't actually required for initiation, and that they were instructed not to take such claims on faith.

I witnessed the same in Fayetteville when a Satsangi called him God and he said "Please don't say that. It's presumptuous and I'm not God."

So what are the teachings? What are we to believe? The teachings tell Satsangis that belief only has utility to motivate practice, and that what they see as a result, not what anyone else claims, even other Saints, should become their truth. That's in all the literature, yet you both refuse to acknowldge it.

Many Satsangis today will tell you that they don't actually know and hope to one day.

I'm not debating your conclusion. That is your property. Everyone has their opinion. You might be right.

But I might be right as well. I can only believe what I see. You are in the same predicament, and your information, like mine, is also incomplete.

But I'm trying to keep an open mind by not dismissing or ignoring information.

I'm not debating the information you have, though the quality of that information is no where even close to what it needs to be to support your accusations.

I'm reflecting back your own accusation that those who disagree are simply ignorant or biased by pointing out you appear unable to acknowledge any information about any accusation that doesn't support your conclusion.

You think that practice of not acknowledging contrary information strengthens your case, but it weakens it. And it encourages dismissing those who disagree, rather than incorprating that information into a whole picture that honors all information, and all voices.

If you are unable to consider all the information without dismissing it, how can your dogmatic and siloed version of Atheism be any closer to truth than any other religious dogma?

You want to believe that Satsangis believe what you say the teachings are, after leaving out some of the teachings.

Rather than letting Satsangis speak for themselves. Letting them have their own voice. Instead you dismiss their testimony as completely biased because they are Satsangis. And because it doesn't support your own opinion.

I can hold an opinion and know it is just an opinion.

Like a good Satsangi I can say, "I don't actually know but one day I would like to."

Join me.

[um]

@ Spence

The workings of ghe mind are like dreams they produce all sorts of unexpected content.

After reading your last message and while making coffee, all of an sudden I was reminded of the many incidents a know of where high ranking officials and sevadars succumbed to the pressure of their wifes,

They were all threatened with divorce etc if they would remain satsangi, take an certain seva, or go to a satsang. etc etc.

Some were realy comical ... how people in society in CEO functions had to sneak out of the house, with some excuse to bypass the threat .. like little children stealing a cooky from their mom and eating it under and behind a busch in the garden ... hahaha

Hahaha ... I could write a whole book about the time I was still associate with the congregation.....a soap could not stand in its shaddow. ... hahaha

People are so focused on the guru but it would be far more interesting and funny to delve into the behaviour of the members of the congregation. ... because there, in the midst of them are to be founfd all answers related to the organisation.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
Fascinating. A lot of mixed marriages in Sant Mat, including my own, with mixed results.

It's nice when two people can pull together. A lot happens to keep peace at home. If there can be give and take, if they can each make small compromises and still encourage each other in each other's individual choices that's ideal. It's never an equal balance, though. Just the price of companionship. One person will be wearing the pants more often.

But if one's sense of peace must come at the destruction of their partner's, if one cannot tolerate the belief system of the other, if they can't support it, then the road is going to be rough at best.

If someone must give up participation to bring peace and security to their spouse, where is the harm? A short delay to pay our bills compassionately.

Fortunately most religions are portable, including Sant Mat, and can be practiced individually and internally with limited formal participation and minimal impact. The body is the temple of all beliefs. And Therein we find our sanctuary.

Then, that makes us very flexible and accommodating to the needs and fears of our spouse, family and others. Whatever we need us within us. Our Master is within us. This outer career is not the center stage of our life, so we can give that to our spouse and family, and support their effort to grow their own achievements and to learn from those.

Being true to ourselves we bring peace into that situation and can be more accommodating than anyone else, without requiring much.

God is our support, and that makes us much more amenable to a range of varying situations. Couples are not always ideal, but neither is each of us. You could say spirituality helps us pay our debts with limited discomfort and relative ease and happiness.

[um]

@ Spence
Not only mixed marriages also satsangi couples that used all sorts of imagined sant mat rules to hide behind in order to manipulate their partners ... especialy the bedroom ... hahaha

The more i think about it the more I am convinced that focusing on the guru etc is just an distraction maneuver from what realy matters namely HOW sant mat is digested by the community as an whole and by individuals in particular.

There is an huge ongoing pressure from below to the top to adjust to the expectations of the community at ;large .. the opposite might seem to be the reality ... but many of the decision that were taken by the directory were nothing but an re-action to behavior of the community and its members..

They are fighting among themselves, to have their way in the community and their interpretation of sant mat to be accepted as THE only valid one.

Now it lies all behind me and it is years ago that i was associated with the organisation and I have had ample time to reflect on my days in that organisation, my advice would be .. under no circumstance dabble in the affairs of the community and stick to the reasons why you asked for initiation

And against that background I have developed respect and understanding for the role these gurus find themselves in. .. it is not easy .. to say the least .. hahahaha .. apart from whether they are real gurus or not. it is admirable how they handle that ongoing pressure upon them

[Simmi]

That is really funny tjing about mix marriages . I got married with my husband ..he was very much into this organisation..GSD was like his God. I remember to support him l used to go with him..so called satsang on Tuesday evening and Sundays morning also so called Seva regularly . All the preachers used to emphasise on how lucky we were that we got GSD and he is GIHF

I was very impressed initially and started believing in it...got initiated..whenever GSD used to come, it was like OMG..l found the God..many years l followed his meditation with my husband..our life was just like around RSSB people..no social and always talk about GSD and how lucky we were..and everything happening in our life because of GSD.
One day in his satsang..one lady asked him that her husband used to beat her up and did wrong with her daughter.
Instead of telling her to go to police and leave him GSD said it is all karma.. you should talk with your husband and make compromise.
I was shocked..how can he give this advice to a mum whose daughter was sexually assaulted

After this l started to see my life more closely and took my RSSB glasses off..l realised RSSB is a big cult and my husband and l was this Cult member
We were cut off from a normal life..and wasted many years
I spoke with my husband and said l don't mind if he wanted to continue but l refused to follow GSD any more

After all this..many other GSD frauds came in the light and my Husband also realised that how big cult RSSB is..he also gave up eventually

He was in depression for few years that he wasted best years of his life behind this organ

It's been 5 years now..we studied more our birth religion Sikhism and found Sikhism is a real and first Sant Mat as Sri Guru Granth Sahib has teaching of many saints.
We are not very religious but we do our meditation as per Sikhism teachings

We are very happy now and living a normal life
Whoever is in RSSB..this is the time..come out ASAP...it is a very big Cult and you are waisting your life ..smell the coffee..

[um]

@ Simmi

Be glad you only smell the coffee ... hahaha ... if you had to drink it, it might have turned out to bitter for your taste without sugar.

Me too, I left the organisation behind many years ago and have come to know many of the affairs similar to the one you related, but I would not call it a cult, in the sense you use the word.

My problem with these paths, of which there are so many in India, is that they allow to much people into their ranks, that according my understanding and in retrospect of my own experience, are by no means willing and maybe even able to follow such an path..

In Europe we have several very strict monastic orders, the most rigid is that of the Carthusians. Before they allow anybody to live such a live they have to undergo an introduction of 2 years, to see if they have a real calling and if they are mentaly and otherwise live such an life.

Now it all lies behind me, I have come to understand that these paths in India are in fact monastic orders for lay people and .. that that way of life is not everybodies cup of coffee ... hahaha

[Stay real]

@Simmi,
I appreciate your sincere post. Happy to know you are continuing your spiritual quest.
What little sikh poetry I have read, I find it deeply meaningful.
Be mindful not to simply changes your glasses from Raybans to Dior. But occasionally take them off and see life as it is without any filters.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Simmi
The point of Sant Mat is to go within and find the answers and the strength to do the right thing however painful, for yourself.

He answers questions behaviorally, not conceptually. He doesn't want you to abdicate your responsibly as an adult, but the opposite. Find your own answer. He does this by giving you an impossible answer. More Zen than Sikh.

In general when people ask the Master for permission to do this or that he responds with an answer that puts the whole burden on the person raising the question, and usually that includes starting with more effort at meditation. That is their subject matter. From an objective perspective this can look absurd. But understood rightly, the conclusion is right. She has to come up with her own rules, what will work for her, and find the strength through the meditation to follow them.

Re domestic abuse, the woman has every right to leave for any reason at any time. Emotional abuse, neglect, any reason at all. There is no reason outside of her sentiment. If it isn't working, and she has done her best, she is free to take any legal action she likes.

If her husband has violated anyone, and will not ask help, or she feels unsafe, his incarceration is of utmost importance, once she and her daughter are safe from her husband.

She may have made a bad choice, but now she is responsible to protect her daughter and herself, and make sure her husband is prevented from harming anyone else.

These are basic ethics that transcend any particular system of belief, but that are also contained within Sant Mat. You must apply them to your situation.

If the husband had already served his jail time and was reformed, and she still loved him, and her daughter felt the same, they may most certainly try to make things work. It's noble if it's serious, and just weakness and enabling if it isn't. At some point every criminal is challenged with reform, and then everyone's help is most important. But that is help, not enabling the problem.

It isn't her karma. It is her husband's karma. Her karma is to set boundaries and be clear that harm will not be tolerated, and to prevent any from coming to her daughter, and to use every legal means to achieve it, when personal efforts are not viable.

If you wish to take a personal question to the Master I can assure you his answer will put all the responsibility on your shoulders. Why? Because that person did not find the strength to do the right thing on her own before, when it was her duty to do so, to set the right boundaries within themselves, and to protect her daughter. Now what is she teaching her daughter about self-respect?

She is still looking for some man to tell her right from wrong. So now the whole burden is on her shoulders. And what is Baba Ji's answer? Don't put the burden of responsibility on him. It's all on you. It's the perfect way to help break her of this habit of looking to men to tell her what's right or wrong. She still is not taking full responsibility for her daughter's safety.

And that enables the problem.

So, the answer is tough love. No she shouldn't take the answer literally. It's an impossible answer. She won't be able to do that. She will have to find the right answer and the strength to do it within. And that is actually what Sant Mat is doing. And so that is behaviorally, the perfect answer. She will have to reject Baba Ji's answer and find her own.

He does this over and over again. It's the same lesson: I already gave you meditation to find the answer and strength. Now figure it out and stand up and walk. If you ask me for an answer I'll tell you it's all on you.

Sant Mat is similar to Sikhism in this regard. If someone is not ready to become a warrior, first and foremost against their own weaknesses, they aren't ready for the path. For them meditation will be a waste of time. But the path accommodates the weak also. It's just a rougher road, where one must shoulder the entire burden until they learn their lesson.

One phone call to the police to come pick up her husband would have been an easier path. A second call to her folks to get the guest bedroom ready, and to thank them for hooking her up with a beast would be her third task, after getting herself and her daughter out of the house to safety. Meditation could help her gather the strength for such decisions in future. Not finding another man to abuse her and her daughter and gaslight them both.

[Appreciative Reader]

Hi, Spence.

No idea what to say to that long and general comment of yours. Speaking for myself, that is.

I'd said two things in this thread. First, the Pope is central to RCC, and GSD is central to RSSB, in a way that mere clergy and teachers and technicians and mullahs and shamans aren't, so that fundamental flaws in their character would udermine the faiths they represent to an extent that character flaws in lesser clergy and teachers and technicians and mullahs and shamans won't. And also, GSD's conduct has clearly been of questionable morality in many cases --- and legally dicey, as well, but I guess that last at least is open to contestation. One egregious example of that last would be how he'd leveraged his gurudom to become, of all things, a business advisor and director at his rich nephews' business, a position he clearly was not qualified for, and that he, not surprisingly, eventually made a complete mess of; in the process screwing over said gullible nephews, while ensuring a level of wealth for himself and his sons, that he clearly had zero moral right to.

Not sure what your objection to my saying either of these things might be, other than maybe you don't like it said.

[Appreciative Reader]

"Be mindful not to simply changes your glasses from Raybans to Dior."

Except that's exactly what she's already done, no?

[Appreciative Reader]

Although, as far as my last comment, I guess I take that back. I just re-read Simmi's account, where GSD apparently tried to paper over some creep's pedophiliac abuse by abstract references to Karma and such other BS. Better any day the looney-tunes Sikh tinted glass, than that abuse-enabling tint.

[um]

@ AR

I have written several times about what I call the "small path" as an elaboration on the exhortation [ if that is a correct word in english] in almost all spiritual schools:
"Love they enemy"

Without going into details, I had to go through a life threatening traumatic experience with an satsangi companion that was mentally out of balance. It was that bad if later anybody would ring the door my arms would get frozen until the shoulder.

As I liked the fellow that had been until then a good companion with lots of humor, I wanted to let him visit me again but at the same time I was scared to death.

I wrote a letter, explained what happened .. and guess .. I got the same type of answer as was given to all the others that ever came before him with this or that traumatic experience caused by others. ... being to admonish me to be kind and helpful to him as he was in such an bad mental state ... and .. not a single word about what it had been for me.

Soon, if I remember well not even 4 weeks later, he committed suicide.

I hate to write about these things but I do so because it has helped me understand very deep layers of spirituality and I would I had had the courage in those days, to by pass my fears, call him and ask him to come again.

The invitation to love your enemies has nothing to do with THEM, nor with what they do ..nothing and certainly not an justification of what is wrong ... it is, if well understood an mental cure for the trauma. an speaks of the highest respect for the one that had to endure the trauma.

But .. that said it is not easy, it needs a lot of courage, courage I didn't have in those days. I would I had because I am convince I would have developed in a complete different way.

Readers do forgive me if you do not understand end/or agree or worse feel hunted by what I wrote

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Appreciative
Your comments are fine, as far as they go.
In the Church one must take a vow of belief in Christ as the one true Lord. So priests and popes gain authority from that vow. You must take a leap of blind faith to get started, and the fact that it is blind is a big part of it. That's what trust is. What you can see for yourself no longer requires faith at all. But what you can't see you must take with some faith, at least until your prayer practice yeilds it's own results.

In Sant Mat the teachers promote the teachers as God from their view, but not from the Satsangi's. The teachers tell you not to take that on face value but find out what that really means through your own meditation practice. And so no vow of belief is required to become a Satsangi. They don't want blind faith and are often critical of it especially from Satsangis. The teachers have an intermediary role to help you see things for themselves. If the teachings don't work for you no label of the teacher is going to mean anything.

If the teachings do work for you, you will be amazed, and you will have your own words.

But the point is to get there and see for yourself. Some do it sooner than later.

But everyone who is sincere gains some improved insight, awareness and cognitive functioning from prolonged practice. The hard sciences have proven that much. That's exclusive to prayer and meditation, but the range of practices is broad.

Whatever gets you to practice is all that matters. Then what you see and understand is what matters.

Just keep an open mind.

An 'Aha!' moment can arise from heightened understanding, from heightened awareness, but also from the love that awakens when we realize we aren't alone, we are connected y to an even higher consciousness that was always there. Words can't describe it.

From that kind of experience then appreciation, love, humility, gratitude, even passion very natural emotional responses and just flow all by themselves. That's Satori, at least the Sant Mat version. And then language tends to get very subjective and poetic about one's teacher.

So that language comes from experience. The point is to get there, and then you can describe your teacher in whatever words that come to you at the time.

[Trez]

Radha soami is a Religion even if Gurinder Singh dhillon tries very hard to not admit it. As in the Australian satsang centre land fiasco they bought and were building, Gurinder Singh Dhilion told the truth, lie that they are a religion after all. Great, lie out your teeth blindly when you need something, true Radha Soami way of life Gurinder.

Lying is a way of life to Gurinder Singh Dhilion on stage he lies endlessly without no shame. Quoting others, as his own enlightenment bucket is empty. Caught red handed, very embarrassing

He flies around on planes as if he's in a hurry to do what? he's collecting souls on behalf of his father Kaal (devil). So they can entrap the souls here in hell so they can live of them free, getting them to do seva etc and he can live like a god which he is.

See the truth he's living it, while you're NOT!

Amazing promotion for a small WAITER IN SPAIN.
Living of tips could never fill Gurinders endless needs of greed
He seems to have his mucky paws in other people's pockets, never a good thing

So now Gurinder and his 2 useless moneygrabbing sons live a million dollar lifestyle thanks to Gurinders Godliness. Thanks pops for living a honest living

Jailing his nephews did Gurinder great hes made it in the millionaires club
Sleeps very well too couldn't give a fox about his nephews
Yep all in the name of God realisation they got done over by goody 2 dirty shoes Gurinder

Ever heard of money and God go together?
Buddha didn't, did he now. But Gurinders did. Yep again exposed brutally

Nocking of his wife for millions of dollars insurance has made Gurinder and his sons wealthy and famous also set for generations to come. Great Gurinder again we see a perfect living master at every step. lol

Radha soami is Radha Krishna a Hindu yes religion
Shiva is known as Kaal, Gurinders father

Since when can you repeat the Devils (Kaals) name and get to God?

Gurinder says he can and his 5 mantra naam daan is going to do exactly that for us all
JYOT NARANJAN IS KAAL
the first name of 5 Gurinder gives you.
I think it's game over on the first name forget the rest. You're never going to see God are you, how can you?
You're going to Hell that's where he takes them after, not a heaven
The idea of going to inside realms of heaven which Gurinder tells you about tells you we must be in a hell of some sort
Care to tell us all the real truth Gurinder are we in Hell already? You know don't you...

Gurinder is KAAL in disguse.

There are many old Indian sayings about the KAAL coming as a Baba and trying to delude and deciveve humanity and to beware of this too
This is who Gurinder Singh Dhilion is
That's why he gives you KAALS MANTRA NAAM DAAN come on sangat wake up!

Many a time his frivolous dirty nature comes up in satsangs q&a when he has known to have said some rather eye opening comments about women and him being sexy. Really check da mirror old boy Gurinder

There was also an article on Gurinder Singh Dhilion and some child molestation charges and Gurinder was given a court attendance. Gurinders on the verge of sick

Just like other so called Baba he's really just a dirty old man dressed up as a baba to trick the masses.

While people are starving in Punjab Gurinder enjoys living like a god eating his fill. Do something for them instead of sitting talking nonsense all the time
Oh and leave they're land alone too. Hands off, let em live

@ UM
and please No Questions and Answers ask Gurinder Singh Dhilion if you have any He loves doing them

[um]

@AR

and .... let me take the freedom to add to what I wrote, based upon goning through hours of Q&A sessions, what I observed. It is not complete, and maybe not phrased as it should but anyway ..

They, these masters I found, are not "free".

They are in their role free from others before them but that seems to be possible only because they submit themselves to somethings, without ever using an excuse to make an exception. Possible they would lose their freedom of operation towards others if they did.

What happens during these questions and answers.?

Each and every time, day in day out, year in year out, with this master or any other people will approach them [1] to absolve them, [2] to agree with them, [3] to allow them to do certain things and in doing so washing their hands in innocence.

They have never given in, as far as i can rember, not one single time

Listen ...of course with a cup of coffee ... to a couple of these registered sessions of MCS and his succesor and you will soon see the patron in what people are doing there.

It has in fact the form of an ongoing siege ... and believe me ... nothing is crazy enough to try to force their will upon him and make him say what he cannot and will not say .. the emotional pressure is enormous.

They are bound and not free to give the answers they might give if they were not bound to that role.

So to give an simple example ...If you want to drink whiskery or have to to please somebody, then by al means do so, there is no god that is interested in you drinking whatever you want but do not approach him to ask permission as he cannot give it.

That is not his role. The guidelines are their for every bodies help and are not to be transformed into commands, orders or sins as most do. There is, no god that is interested in anybodies transgressions .. but keeping these guideline is in one's own interest and nobody else

[Stay real]

Title of the post:
"If art is separate from an artist, is a guru separate from their message?"

Common sense, logical, rational answer is "NO".

Reading the comments, there are as many filters/biases as there are brands of sun glasses at the Sunglasses Hut!
Just my opinion. But, I have visual floaters and cataracts from aging creating blurred vision.

[um]

@ Trez

I have had more than enough opportunity to ask him and his uncle questions having personal interviews and long correspondence.

So do not worry.

And I cannot say other that I am very pleased with the benevolence of both of them to take the time to answer my questions. Questions I might not ask today. Questions I should not have asked then maybe if i would have been less impatient.

You see Tez I came on my own accord and left again on my own accord for my own reasons, I do not need anybody as an lame excuse for my own actions not even guru's.

Let me write what i had in mind yesterday.

If a man stands accused for crimes in the pillory of the market of the world, I am free to leave my house, go to the market and join the mob of shouting and abusing villagers, throwing stones, and rotten material, justifying themselves with the fact that he stood trial and was judged guilty ...I am not going to use that freedom Tez

What I have taken with me is remembrance of more then a decade of experiences that I would never have like to miss for a mountain of gold.

I left and that is allright but with gratitude in my heart ..now have a look at yourself my friend ... day in day out you come here and keep your hatred alive. You are not hurting anybody but yourself, the body can digest only limited amounts of negativity.

[Osho Robbins]

"Hi Satnam, You wrote
"I am not sure but someone said GSD edited many books of Swami...Swami was himself a smoker use to smoke Hukka"
You have accepted this as fact. That is your subjective view. That's OK, but let's not confuse belief with fact. Isn't that the very case you are trying to make?" - from above 16 may 10:34

let me shed some light on the matter.

This is from the days of Jaimal singh.
When he came to beas, he had the book: Sar Bachan (Poetry)
In there are several poems - in the arti section
where Rai Saligram is doing the seva and Swami Ji is smoking hukka
Rai saligram wrote many of those poems in devotion to Swami Ji

Jaimal edited them and removed the references to "Hukka" because in
sikhism and in punjab, it would be frowned upon.

The committee took exception to this and warned Jaimal that if he wants to use Sar Barchan
he must not edit it
eventually they excommunicated him from the official Radha swami committee
because he did not comply

[Curious]

Osho,
Thank you for the information.
Would you also know why Jaimal would make edits to a book, when he was basically a sad, who wouldn't allow his picture to be taken?
Curious.

[SantMat64]

"As for Gurinder doing (other) things that are, "at the least," morally questionable, they go unnamed."

They don't go unnamed. They've been named, and discussed in full complete detail, time and time again.

You might quibble about legality --- and I'd say they'd only be quibbles, given, well, everything, but admittedly you might present arguments contesting that --- but what is completely unarguable is the morally questionable nature of some of the things he's done and/or is responsible for. Things that no decent honest human being would do and/or be responsible for, leave alone an alleged PLM.

If you follow this blog at all regularly, and I think you do, then you can't possibly be unaware of what all I mean. If you need a specific example to start with, then think of his not-quite-rags-but-fairly-close-relatively-speaking to riches story, him and his sons as well, and those two poor dupes who paid for their blind trust in this godman by having their golden spoon yanked right off of their mouth and thrust deep up their backside.

Posted by: Appreciative Reader

--------------

I reviewed all the links BH posted that he purports show Gurinder is a bad man. None of them meet the mark The stock M.O. is to cite a news story of an investigation of Dhillon family members and then leap to the conclusion that Gurinder is the secret mastermind behind all that transpired. "Voila, proof!" Uh no. It's a dossier as phony as Steele's.

I'm sorry, but as for the whole Religare saga, we still do-not-know that Gurinder was giving the orders to siphon off millions from that corporation. We do know there was a trial on the matter, and people were found guilty and sent to prison. While it's true that Malvinder, one of the guilty, implicated Gurinder, his fellow corporate scalawags did not. What do we make of that? While I admit that it's of note that Malvinder turned against the guru, it's surely equally remarkable that the others facing prison did not. It would quite had been something if all of them went to court and pointed their fingers at Gurinder as the director of the misused funds. But that just didn't happen, And so, my' conclusion is that while there may be things we do not know about this case, it's patently unfair to keep publishing statements over and over again on this blog that Gurinder Singh is guilty of financial fraud, and death threats to shut people up. Those extremely serious charges are simply unproven, and to keep preaching they are facts is grotesque.

Having debunked the stated claims of death threats from Gurinder, the subject gets changed to sundry other accusations. Whatever I said about the gravity of saying someone is guilty of making death threats without any evidence of such seems to have meant nothing to the party responsible, so I guess it's useless to press that moral issue to him or anyone else here. But aside from that, none of these proffered tales of wrongdoing have resulted in criminal charges against Gurinder, much less convictions.

Some of the charges are hearsay, as in "I heard Gurinder say such and such at a satsang." These uncorroborated recollections may be true or not. Call me old fashioned, but I think it's surely a matter of opinion that the best course of action in a family issue is to immediately contact the government.

"Quibble about legality"? I'm not sure I know what that means. Laws are defined by a nation's government, and that government enforces those laws through its court system. I think rather that you and Brian, like many folks these days, have an impressionistic take on what's legal from illegal.
There's no legal statute that elevates hearsay into hard evidence for people that you don't like because of their religious beliefs or station in life. Had Gurinder been found guilty in court about anything, I'd not quibble a jot about it. But such has not come to pass.

"but what is completely unarguable is the morally questionable nature of some of the things he's done and/or is responsible for. "

I don't own a Julian Johnson crystal ball and so have no idea of precisely what you're alluding to. I'll add to what I previously wrote: not liking someone is neither proof they're criminals, nor is it even proof that the person's actions are "morally questionable." A very gooey and unhelpful term, that. For all I can guess from your previous comments here, you think Gurinder's status as guru counts as "morally questionable."

Good on you if you do, but it has nothing to do with the hard issue I brought up of calling the guy a financial criminal who freely issues death threats to all oppose him. There is no actual evidence of either. There's only yours and BH and Malvinder's feelings, and they ain't facts.

[Brian Hines]

SantMat64, I'm not aware that a trial has been held about the financial fraud case involving the Singh brothers and the RSSB guru. Please share a link to either a news story about the trial or the court decision itself. I follow this issue as closely as possible. To my knowledge there hasn't been a trial. Malvinder and Shivinder are in jail for other reasons, I'm pretty sure.