Here in the United States we have a lengthy history of discriminating against people based on the color of their skin: Blacks have fared much worse than Whites.
But this sort of discrimination is easy to understand. Genetics explains the discrimination.
I find it much more difficult to fathom why caste is still ever-present in India. I realize that caste is based on the Hindu religion. However, Buddhists, Muslims, Christians and other faiths are members of Indian castes.
This seems bizarre to me.
A story in the Washington Post got me thinking about this: "A caste survey in India could upend politics in world's largest democracy." Here's how the story starts out.
I have no idea why India persists in allowing castes to be used to categorize people. It just seems like an exceedingly backward system rooted in Hindu dogma that has no place in a country that aspires to take its place as a modern 21st century society.
The BBC explained caste, but it still makes no sense to me.
Manusmriti, widely regarded to be the most important and authoritative book on Hindu law and dating back to at least 1,000 years before Christ was born, "acknowledges and justifies the caste system as the basis of order and regularity of society".
The caste system divides Hindus into four main categories - Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and the Shudras. Many believe that the groups originated from Brahma, the Hindu God of creation.
At the top of the hierarchy were the Brahmins who were mainly teachers and intellectuals and are believed to have come from Brahma's head. Then came the Kshatriyas, or the warriors and rulers, supposedly from his arms. The third slot went to the Vaishyas, or the traders, who were created from his thighs. At the bottom of the heap were the Shudras, who came from Brahma's feet and did all the menial jobs.
The main castes were further divided into about 3,000 castes and 25,000 sub-castes, each based on their specific occupation.
Outside of this Hindu caste system were the achhoots - the Dalits or the untouchables.
...Some say the caste system would have disappeared by now if the fires were not regularly fanned by politicians.
At elections, many caste groups still vote as a block and are wooed by politicians looking for electoral gains.
As a result, what was originally meant to be a temporary affirmative action plan to improve the lot of the unprivileged groups has now become a vote-grabbing exercise for many politicians.
The Pew Research Center reported on a survey of Indian attitudes toward caste. It was good to see that most Indians report that they aren't aware of caste discrimination, but attitudes toward marriages between different castes shows that India has a long way to go in this regard.
Caste segregation remains prevalent in India. For example, a substantial share of Brahmins say they would not be willing to accept a person who belongs to a Scheduled Caste as a neighbor. But most Indians do not feel there is a lot of caste discrimination in the country, and two-thirds of those who identify with Scheduled Castes or Tribes say there is not widespread discrimination against their respective groups. This feeling may reflect personal experience: 82% of Indians say they have not personally faced discrimination based on their caste in the year prior to taking the survey.
Still, Indians conduct their social lives largely within caste hierarchies. A majority of Indians say that their close friends are mostly members of their own caste, including roughly one-quarter (24%) who say all their close friends are from their caste. And most people say it is very important to stop both men and women in their community from marrying into other castes, although this view varies widely by region. For example, roughly eight-in-ten Indians in the Central region (82%) say it is very important to stop inter-caste marriages for men, compared with just 35% in the South who feel strongly about stopping such marriages.
I guess this is an endorsement of RSSB, which has always demonstrated that they believe in social equality, forbid caste distinctions and have also attracted Dalits to their tradition.
It's easy to fault Hinduism for social inequality, and that's because it objectively condones the caste system. And it's not a small thing, as there's undeniable prejudice against certain castes, which led many to quit Hinduism and embrace Buddhism or Islam. Contrary to its popular rep as the most tolerant religion(s), Hinduism is actually one of the least tolerant. Strictly speaking, a Westerner cannot convert to an orthodox sect of Hinduism. See stories of Western disciples of Anandamayi Ma, who despite decades of commitment were excluded from temple worship.
Then there's Hinduism's take on the Buddha. The Buddha is considered an avatar of Vishnu! That's true ecumenism the West should admire! Well, not quite. The full story from the shastras is that the Buddha is indeed considered an avatar, but as a demon who deliberately misled theists. And that the Kalki Avatar would return to destroy all Buddhists.
But back to the main point, a caste system is quite indefensible. As are any forms of racism. They're objectively bad, and probably doing far more damage in Africa than in Asia. And what has that to do with us, and our (actual, not contrived) racial issues?
Well, latest news is that Indian Americans are now the highest earners of any demographic. East Asian Americans are right behind them, both outpacing us priv whites. Somehow, in racist America, land of the Chinese Exclusion Act and Japanese internment, Asians are as a group the highest earners, family oriented, exceed in education, and lowest in crime. This can only prove that racism really, really, really is no bar to success in America.
Meanwhile, the group at the bottom, lowest in income, highest in crime, lowest in family values, complains the most about how unfair and racist this country is. Amazing that people swallow that nonsense.
Posted by: SantMat64 | May 09, 2023 at 08:52 AM
The northern part of Indian overall has a very fair complexion compared to the “dark Southern Indian territories”.
Just the same as it is in Africa—the paler the complexion the better.
😂 😂 😂
I can’t help but laugh because I have to go to the tanning bed at least once a month not to luck quite so ugly as I do when I’m my natural pale self.
Yes, the whole thing is absurd. I’m disgusted by it TBH.
Posted by: Sam | May 09, 2023 at 01:17 PM
*not to LOOK
I’m curious, where did the pale ideal originate? I’m. Trying to understand why so many white people are investing in bronzing creams and tanning booths.
Posted by: Sam | May 09, 2023 at 01:19 PM
@ Sam
Let me guess .. instead of coffee I just took tea ... so the guess may worth nothing
Hahaha
Look at the globe.
Where did the development took place?
Mostly in those zones where climate and geografic suroundings where conductive to that devlopment.
It started around the Mediterranean sea and slowly moved up towards more temperate climate zones.
And than have a look around .. those people are more pale ... hahaha
Pale stand for progress and prosperity
Posted by: um | May 09, 2023 at 01:52 PM
I'm disappointed with your rank perfidy, um. Tea instead of coffee, really?
Although to be fair, yesterday I'd had a large mug of tea myself, along with my parents who prefer that to coffee. So maybe we can cut each other some slack on our occasionally wavering faith to the drink of the gods.
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | May 09, 2023 at 07:09 PM
@AR
Hahaha ,,,, your parents must be calm and balanced people, as they prefer tea.
Yesterday I heard an Korean Buddhist nun, being a master chef in temple cooking, say, that coffee agitates the mind and thee softens the heart.
Posted by: um | May 10, 2023 at 12:35 AM
“Caste survey in India makes me wonder why castes still exist”
Yes, it is archaic and unjust but I can only think that it survives in India simply because it works for them. Some believe the India's caste system originated with the Hindu god of Brahma – the creator of the world and all creatures on it in Hindu mythology, maybe such thinking lies deeply in subconscious respect (or fear).
In different ways such hierarchies exist all over the world. George Orwell wrote that “England is the most class-ridden country under the sun. It is a land of snobbery and privilege, ruled largely by the old and silly.” A bit harsh, but yes, England still has some vibrant class distinctions. Although France abolished the old ruling system, today, their current social classes (hierarchies) are generally defined by income, wealth, and profession – as are many other democratic countries.
In many ways hierarchies are natural. Dominance hierarchies exist in other social mammals, such as baboons and wolves, and in birds, notably chickens (in which the term pecking order is often applied). It just seems to be that where humans are concerned the type of hierarchy depends on their particular social evolution.
We have the knowledge and intelligence to create equal societies but research shows that our choices are often determined by our genes. There is always the fear of ‘losing out’, of others ‘having more’. And there will always be someone who sneakily or forcibly clamours for the top place – quickly followed by others vying to displace them.
Someone once said that “Every man is born equal, but some are more equal than others.” America and Europe and many other countries fought against racism and it has been eradicated in law and many institutions. But has it perhaps just been driven underground – waiting for some occurrence, group or person to ‘fan the fires’ again. Social divisions may be inherent in us.
Posted by: Ron E. | May 10, 2023 at 03:22 AM
@ Ron
>>But has it perhaps just been driven underground – waiting for some occurrence, group or person to ‘fan the fires’ again. Social divisions may be inherent in us.<<
Driven underground???
YES !!!
But waiting ??
Definitely NOT!!!
One can dress a skunk up in fancy clothes, spray perfume over it, but it will still stink.
Humanity, each and every one, still suffers from
anger
Greed
lust
attachment
Ego
One changes the forms it can express itself but it is still expressed ..just walk around and hear the lament of the people.
People can be tortures physical, what is considered ugly and not done these days, but it is now done emotional and intellectual,... helped by science to find out how to do it.
We have saying that might exist also in English:
"gentle healers make stinking wounds"
Posted by: um | May 10, 2023 at 03:47 AM
“Humanity, each and every one still suffers from anger, greed, lust, attachment, ego.”
Yes Um, That’s pretty obvious. ‘Waiting’ in the context of my usage here is merely a very English way of using irony to state the blindingly obvious. Of course, we have all those ‘qualities’ you list and although ‘driven underground’ can easily manifest at the least provocation. As I said, social divisions ‘may’ (another irony meaning definitely) be inherent in us.
Posted by: Ron E. | May 10, 2023 at 06:04 AM
The caste system in India is a complete abomination, and every Indian should be completely, abjectly ashamed that this abominable practice is still prevalent there, in this day and age.
There can be no justification for this regressive and inhuman practice, none. Indians are not alone in being afflicted with superstitions, witness the cross-eyed superstitions harbored by the overall far more "advanced" US --- but India does stand apart, in the hall of shame, for not having been able to root out this completely shameful relic from their past even today.
Each and every Indian, that has a shred of decency in them, should stand silent with head bowed low in shame, that this ...abomination, this complete abomination, still finds place in their society.
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | May 10, 2023 at 06:27 AM
The current virtue signaling hysteria over race and "equity" is doing nothing to help anyone except the race hustlers in the DEI industry.
It's all just an aspect of the power grab by progressives. By labeling anyone who disagrees with them as a racist, they seek to completely delegitimize the opposition. Actually, that's putting it far too mildly. They seek to criminalize the opposition.
Who is the opposition? Ordinary people. Parents who want to have healthy children. Those who believe in the rule of law. People who believe in civil rights, People who believe in freedom.
The progressives carry on like it's 1933 all over again, and I believe they are right, though they have it backward. it's people like myself who are the new Jews in a society that seeks to literally exterminate them.
Posted by: SantMat64 | May 10, 2023 at 07:07 AM
@ RON
What you point at I call it the passive, provoked and reactive expression of these humans traits.
When I reacted I did not have THAT in mind but the active fault finding and demonizing of visible, physical means to correct, punish and inflict harm to others and in the mean time using more sophisticated, cat clean and in the en more damaging means, to do the same.
The idea, that by publicly demonizing what was wrong in the past, the publicly self-accusations of these days, these wrongs would disappear from the surface of the earth is wishful thinking, to say the least.
These days it has become a trend to publicly distancing oneself from wrongs done in the past, colonialisation, exploitation etc etc ...but these very things go on and on they are only covered up with another flag
And my point is and was that by using these modern flags, the same evil is still there, less visible and less correctable by its subtlety.
Many labor conditions all over the world, although not slavery in the formal sense of the old days, is in fact the same.
That is how cathedrals were build, places of worship and these days the buildings were companies and governments reside ...
Nothing has changed.
Posted by: um | May 10, 2023 at 07:16 AM
It is easy to point to another culture's institutionalized bigotry and racism, parochialism and siloed and conditional membership in the human race.
But, sadly, institutional, systemic racism and bigotry exist nearly universally. We don't see it. To the member of their local Silo of Subconscious Subjugation they don't ask about who makes the clothes they wear, the conditions of the people who harvest the foods they eat, or even the tortures the animals they consume are subjected to.
Let us hang our heads in shame over every meal of veal we have consumed!
I know, it's funny. It's ridiculous. Isn't it? To question such a common thing that is so traditional and wholesome, according to our own standards.
The problem is universal. And no one, generally, is aware of it. We stay clear of asking questions that no one wants to answer, and therefore no one has the answers.
In Europe, in America, what are their castes?
White
Hispanic
Black
Asian
Rich
Poor
Indigenous
Alien born
These are castes.
Even
Colleage Educated
High School Educated
Not High School Educated.
All our societies' traditions and behavior include conditions to separate and responde separately to each of these in place of actually learning and understanding the individual themselves.
We separate people subconsciously, unaware of all the conditioning we have undergone. It's natural, automatic, subconscious.
India is an overt example, but no different than any other heterogenous nation on earth.
And for those nations that are entirely homogenous, that is its own caste system.
Solutions? When we adopt the attitude, when we claim the attitude that all people are created equal and deserve equal civil rights, let us work to gradually investigate and eliminate the systemic and traditional rules that promote poor treatment. And that can start with where you are spending your dollars. Forget about voting at the polls. You vote every day, and with far greater impact, when you choose to buy brand X.
It's on you. Forget about India. The problem is in the mirror.
Unless you live in India.
But if you don't, India is just a distraction from domestic racism. And that makes the person who indulges in finger pointing at India instead of working to eliminate it in their own town, country, and home, part of the problem.
If you aren't aware of your American, British, Danish, French, even Scientific Community racism, sexism and bigotry, why do you think Indians should be of theirs?
"Darkness cannot end darkness.
Only Light can do that.
Hatred cannot end hatred.
Only Love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King
Posted by: Spence Tepper | May 10, 2023 at 09:10 AM
"Let us hang our heads in shame over every meal of veal we have consumed!"
..........I don't disagree, Spence.
I keep my vegetarianism to myself, and never ever get sanctimonious or judmental about my food habits, or others' food habits --- but, that said, and quite apart from health reasons, and also quite apart from environmental issues (both of which are extremely important, the latter overridingly so), I find it completely unconscionable, the killing and eating of other creatures that are possessed of consciousness and maybe sentience and certainly the capacity of feeling pain and, arguably in some cases, sorrow as well.
Without intending this to be a judgment on others' choices --- what they do in this respect, is their business, not mine (as far as the morality of it, I mean to say, because arguably the environmental bit is everyone's business) --- but, speaking for myself, I can't even fathom ever wanting to eat some other living breathing feeling conscious perhaps sentient creature, certainly not merely to excite my palate, and not even for any health benefits. Not that I'd have to, because vegetarianism offers enough means to healthy eating, but even assuming for the sake of argument that a carnivorous diet offers health benefits that a vegetarian diet doesn't, but even assuming that I'd happily forgo some health, and indeed if it came to that forgo some years of my own life, rather than eat a ...I don't know, a cow, or a goat, or a fowl, or a chicken, or what have you.
(Although what troubles me as far as all of this is that, after all, plants are living creatures, as well. They too demonstrably feel the equivalent of pain, and even of distress. As far as we know they aren't possessed of consciousness, nor sentience, as far as we know you do need a brain for that; but if it were conclusively proven tomorrow, proven scientifically, that consciousness is possible even without a brain, and that plants do possess consciousness of a kind, well then I don't know what I'd do! My principles on this would have me stop eating altogether --- and yet, while I'm prepared to forgo some eight or ten years of life if it came to that as cost of not eating a carnivorous diet (hypothetically, I mean to say, but I do mean that!), but I don't know that I'm prepared to stop eating altogether and simply let go of life.
I suppose I might console myself, as far as that, by thinking that should science ever show us that plants are possessed of consciousness, well then by then it would also have delivered to us the means of artificially manufacturing our own food without having to take recourse to killing life, not even plant life.)
----------
"The problem is universal. And no one, generally, is aware of it. We stay clear of asking questions that no one wants to answer, and therefore no one has the answers.
In Europe, in America, what are their castes?"
..........On the contrary, let's ask those questions out aloud, all of them.
You're indulging in classic whataboutism here, Spence. That there are other things wrong elsewhere, does not somehow make the monstrosity that is Indian casteism right.
Casteism as practiced in India is barbaric, inhuman, uncivilized, immoral, and completely totally indefensible. That there might be approximate equivalents elsewhere does not change that. To raise those other issues when the spotlight is pointed at this particular monstrosity, is to merely change the subject.
I agree there are inequities elsewhere as well. Rather than staying clear of asking questions about them, by all means let's ask those questions, as well, absolutely, questions about all of them, each and every one of them. But meantime, while we're pointing to the completely sick casteist tradition of India, let's not dilute the issue by changing the subject to other inequities practiced elsewhere.
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | May 10, 2023 at 10:22 AM
@ AR
If you and I would have lived in Rome in the days of the Colosseum, I guess we would also have gone there.
It is my understanding that there was no difference between the people then and now meaning that those who rejoiced in seeing the massacre, would not do it to day.
The development of caste etc, must be understood against the background of those days.
It is also my understanding that the original man must have lived from those items that were a "gift" from nature. Gift because when ripe nuts, seeds and fruits drop bij themselves .. there is no destruction involved.
Otherwise the whole universe is constructed around the transformation of energy, by consuming the energy that is part of another structure +> KILLING
Personally I hope to understand that process before leaving this life behind. WE, we humans abhor that process but maybe, if well understood it is the most kind solution for live to continue
Being a born vegetarian, and lovingly and patience taught by my parents to eat meat in order to fit in society, I have no problem with killing animals as it is done by those who do it to survive. I also by nature never liked alcoholics and smoking. I had to overcome these natural resistances in order to learn these things. In short By nature I just do not need these things. That is all. Against that background I am never to be found in circles that propagate animal rights etc etc. And if someone in the family asks me something I will tell them .. do you have a cat or a dog ... most of them do .. than grab the animal by the throat and strangle it with both of your hands and see what happens. If you do not like what happens and you are unable to do so, leave animals alone. I know I could if necessary.
Posted by: um | May 10, 2023 at 11:19 AM
Hey, um.
"The development of caste etc, must be understood against the background of those days."
...Sure, absolutely. Not contesting that. But to understand its sociological context in times past, is not to condone its continuance today. To fully appreciate the context in which it arose in India in times past, is not to refrain from volubly and unreservedly criticizing and condemning its continued infestation in Indian society today.
No matter how you slice it, that caste should still be a thing, cannot possibly be defended on any grounds. This is a matter of unqualified shame for every Indian, and will continue to be until it is rooted out once and for all.
---
"Being a born vegetarian, and lovingly and patience taught by my parents to eat meat in order to fit in society, I have no problem with killing animals as it is done by those who do it to survive. I also by nature never liked alcoholics and smoking."
...Like I said, I never force my dietary views on others, nor even talk about them unless expressly invited to. I've no problems with others eating animals and birds and fishes, nor with their drinking and smoking as much as they might want. Their conscience, and their health, those are their business, not mine.
That said, yes, I'd much prefer they didn't do these things. If they were to expressly solicit my views, I'd ...well, share with them how I look at these things, and why I don't eat animals, why i don't smoke, and why I drink only occasionally and seldom, these days almost never, to excess.
---
"I had to overcome these natural resistances in order to learn these things. In short By nature I just do not need these things. That is all. Against that background I am never to be found in circles that propagate animal rights etc etc. And if someone in the family asks me something I will tell them .. do you have a cat or a dog ... most of them do .. than grab the animal by the throat and strangle it with both of your hands and see what happens. If you do not like what happens and you are unable to do so, leave animals alone. I know I could if necessary."
...I appreciate that, um, that consistency. If someone's going to be eating animals, then they should own that fully. They should own that they're deliberately inflicting pain and distress and death on another living conscious likely sentient creature, in order to satisfy their palate and/or to further their own health. That honesty, that forthrightness, that consistency, that lack of hypocrisy, that I appreciate.
And like I said, I don't believe I'm on any particularly higher moral ground here. Or at least, it's all a matter of degree, not absolutes. Because I can't get by without eating plants, after all, can I?
---
In fact, this plant argument, I remember it was raised right here, on Brian's blog, a good while back. Certainly before the pandemic, and possibly a good few years before that. It may have been Tucson who presented this argument to me, although I'm not 100% sure of that.
We'd been talking of vegetarianism, and I think I may have brought up the moral angle, and Tucson (or whoever it was), they presented this argument about plants. And that argument struck me, and immediately cut down to size any moral pretensions I may have harbored. I took it to heart; and, while I'm not going to be starving myself to death, and while I continue to see this as a matter of degree (that is, killing and eating a man is morally more reprehensible than killing and eating a cow, and killing and eating a cow is morally more reprehensible than killing and eating a plant), but, in as much as I know that I live by causing distress and pain to plants, I no longer think of my dietary preferences as moral, at least not in any absolute sense.
Like I said, I suppose the only way to address the moral issue satisfactorily, is by moving to the stage where we're able to manufacture our food artificially, without having to take recourse to farming/breeding and then killing living beings. Don't know if I'll see it done in my lifetime, but if it is, then I'll be sure to switch to that, absolutely.
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | May 10, 2023 at 11:51 AM
@ AR
Caste has no meaning nor value for me, so I am not into it.
And it is my understanding that these things are not done by ill will.
Humans are conditioned to be who they are culturally and not to blame for it.
Nor are people to blame for their dietary habits.
They were born with their instinct to keep themselves alive.
They are not free to do otherwise..
They better do not kill for pleasure that is all
What do I have to say to an Inuit hunting for seals?
He is just obeying the laws of nature, laws that are not of his making.
Posted by: um | May 10, 2023 at 12:30 PM
The Indian Caste System Explained
Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra, untouchable: How did the caste system get started, what is the difference between castes — and how does this shameful practice persist to this day?
Quite a few Asian cultures I’ve experienced think of the head as the holiest of body parts and the feet as the filthiest. Sure, that can be taken literally — but it applies on the spiritual level as well.
In India, they’ve taken this concept to the next level, connecting body parts with actual societal classes. They’ve used that belief to help justify a horrific system of oppression.
“The “untouchables” are forced to perform the worst jobs, including cleaning public toilets, raising so-called unclean animals like pigs, curing hides and sweeping streets.”
What is the caste system?
Think of it as the opposite of the American Dream. In the caste system, people are born into their situation in life, including the occupations open to them. And because they can only marry people within their caste, it’s a vicious cycle that never ends.
“Rooted in religion and based on a division of labor, the caste system, among other things, dictates the type of occupations a person can pursue” as well as the social interactions he or she is allowed, according to Dummies, the company that brings us those …for Dummies books.
“The most obvious problem with this system was that under its rigidity, the lower castes were prevented from aspiring to climb higher, and, therefore, economic progress was restricted,” the site reports.
Each caste is said to have come from a different part of the body of Brahma, the Hindu creator god
What exactly are the main castes — and how do they relate to the body?
Each caste is affiliated with a part of the body of Brahma, the Hindu god of creation.
Brahmins: These are the top dogs. They’re mostly priests, teachers and scholars who supposedly came from Brahma’s heads, or mouths (he had four).
Brahmins are the highest caste in India, composed of priests and those lucky enough to be well educated
Kshatriyas: These are the warriors and rulers, so it shouldn’t be surprising that they originated from Brahma’s arms. Nowadays, they tend to be bureaucrats working in public administration, maintenance of law and order, and defense.
The highest secular class, Kshatriyas include the subcaste Rajputs. Traditionally, they were warriors
Vaishyas: This caste consists of the merchants and traders (e.g., businessmen) as well as farmers, cattle herders and artisans. Hindu myth states that they were created from Brahma’s thighs.
The Vaishya caste includes farmers and those involved in business
Shudras: Also called Sudras, this low caste is comprised of menial laborers and service providers. They derive from Brahma’s feet.
A still from the 2012 Hindi movie Shudra: The Rising?, about the poor treatment of this low caste (I’m pretty sure most of them aren’t this hot)
Avarnas/Dalits: The “untouchables” are forced to perform the worst jobs, including cleaning public toilets, raising so-called unclean animals like pigs, curing hides and sweeping streets. Dalit is the more modern term for this class and translates to “oppressed.”
So low on the totem pole, they’re technically outside of the caste system, Dalits, or untouchables, are relegated to jobs deemed too unclean for the rest of society
These castes get broken down into subsets as well by region.
How did the caste system get started?
It was written in the book — the Manusmriti, that is. This tome, dating back to 1000 BCE or more, is widely regarded to be the most important and authoritative book on Hindu law, the BBC reports. It “acknowledges and justifies the caste system as the basis of order and regularity of society.”
This social stratification might go back even further than that, according to The Logical Indian: The site states that the first mention was called “the Varna system” and was in the Rig Veda, an ancient Indian hymnal believed to have been written between 1500 and 800 BCE.
How does the caste system work?
“The upper and lower castes almost always lived in segregated colonies, the water wells were not shared, Brahmins would not accept food or drink from the Shudras, and one could marry only within one’s caste,” according to the BBC.
If it sounds awful, it was: The caste system trapped people into a social stratification they couldn’t escape from.
The ancient texts helped perpetuate stereotypes about each caste, the Logical Indian reports. “Brahmins were considered to be pure, wise and gentle; Kshatriyas were linked with anger, pleasure and boldness; Vaishyas were deemed to be hard-working people living off the plough; and Shudras were associated with violence and impurity, worthy of contempt.”
Isn’t the caste system supposed to have been abolished?
It was, in 1950. Legally, at least. The constitution banned discrimination on the basis of caste, and, in an attempt to correct historical injustices and provide a level playing field to the traditionally disadvantaged, the authorities announced quotas in government jobs and educational institutions for the lowest castes.
By 1990, the quota rose to just under 50%, applying to groups the government classified by such charming names as “Other Backward Classes,” “Scheduled Castes” and “Scheduled Tribes.”
Mahatma Gandhi fought for the rights of the Dalits, calling them Harijans, or the Children of God.
What about the deadly protests against the caste system?
“Outbreaks of violent protests have raked into an ugly spotlight the views of those people who are dissatisfied with affirmative action,” CNN writes.
In February 2016, the Jats, a well-off group of farmers and traders from Northern India, protested. By the end, 30 people had been killed while clashing with the police, buildings were burned, and canals damaged.
Have there been any success stories for those from lower castes?
K.R. Narayanan, the first Dalit president in India — and hopefully not the last
There have been some strides towards equality thanks to the quota system, including the election of a Dalit president, K.R. Narayanan, in 1997.
Despite this, only one Harijan in 3,000 can read (compared with India’s average of one in six) and Harijans make up 33% of India’s landless, The Guardian writes.
Some of the lower castes have sought refuge in Buddhism, while others have found urban centers to be an easier place to mix with other castes.
Discrimination and prejudice continue to this day, our friend Prakash told us when we visited Vadodara, India. He’s a Dalit, whose parents are both school janitors. He explained that many Indians today judge people by their skin color. The lower castes tend to have darker skin, which is seen as less desirable by many.
“If it sounds awful, it was: The caste system trapped people into a social stratification they couldn’t escape from.”
These images come from the manuscript Seventy-two Specimens of Castes in India. They were all hand-painted portraits of people living in Madura, India. The album dates back to 1837 and was compiled by the Indian writing master at an American missionary school and was given to a Reverend William Twining. –Wally
Posted by: KS | May 10, 2023 at 04:43 PM
Meanwhile, the group at the bottom, lowest in income, highest in crime, lowest in family values, complains the most about how unfair and racist this country is. Amazing that people swallow that nonsense.
Posted by: SantMat64 | May 09, 2023 at 08:52 AM
Wow. Clearly you’re comfortable upper middle class.
Posted by: Foundation | May 11, 2023 at 02:08 AM
Hi Appreciative:
You wrote:
"You're indulging in classic whataboutism here, Spence. That there are other things wrong elsewhere, does not somehow make the monstrosity that is Indian casteism right."
Yes, I agree. Obviously I didn't make myself clear. The monstrosity is everywhere. That doesn't mean it isn't in India. It just means it's also on the street where you live. And the two are connected.
My point about voting with your dollars, with what you buy, and becoming more aware of what you are actually supporting with your own choices, is to bring the solution within your grasp.
Let me be a little more pointed here.
When you buy your clothes from Target or Walmart or even Nordstroms or Saks much of that is manufactured in a sweat shop in India, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Pakistan, etc and you are yourself paying out of your pocket to support the expansion of the Caste System and all its subjugation, along with any forms of tyranny that economically profit by producing such inexpensive goods through a form of economic slavery.
So when someone points a finger to India's caste system and says "How Horrible!" the true test of their integrity is their willingness to take a look at their own hand pointing and see three fingers pointing back at themselves, and particularly, down to their wallet.
The globalization of the economy, the ease of advertising, purchasing and shipping all online, actually has put significant dollars into the hands of tyrants, supporting all sorts of immoral, backwards, but traditional forms of subjugation, classism, casteism, racism and bigotry. The problem doesn't just persist. It's getting worse, far worse. All excuses to extract life from people without sharing the wealth that life produces. And doing so purposely as a means to maintain control over those people, to perpetuate slavery, to expand it, so that those business leaders, politicians, even the people enslaved, all think "This is the way it is. The only way it can be. The way it was meant to be."
It may interest you to know that among the voters to ratify the Constitution in New York, were black voters.
Black men had the right to vote in some of the original states in America, Abraham Lincoln teaches us in his letters. He goes on to detail how the expansion of slavery, rather than its gradual eradication, took place because of financial profitablity. So, rather than starting with slavery and gradually eradicating, America started with Slavery and as each new State was added, a battle ensued to admit that state ONLY AS A SLAVE STATE...That meant that a slave who ran to that state would be returned as property to their original owner. Lincoln pointed out the problem, which everyone said would get better over time, was actually getting worse, much worse.
It's happening again today with global economics. All those manufacturing and tech Jobs in America that went to China and India were jobs held by free men and women. Now that work is being done through economic slavery. And more and more wealth is being concentrated at the top, through the expansion of economic slavery. India.
It isn't that India is creating a new middle class. That is basically packaging on what is actually greater concentration of wealth at the top than ever before.
When Brian asks how can the caste system exist today? It exists because people are paying money into parts of that economy that support it. And guess who that is? Us.
So it's OK, helpful, to point out that the Caste system exists, and even to wonder how it persists. But then go the next step. Have the integrity to take the next step and realize that economics are what feeds all forms of tyranny, and then, how some of your choices support that.
So the entire credibility of the question and discussion is whether we go the whole root back to ourselves. There is no credibility nor integrity to finger pointing when we are actually involved but refuse to acknowledge that involvement.
If we are willing to take the next step and point out our own connection to supporting it, the connection others may also see within their own behavior, so that we can do something about it, that is very healthy and helpful. But then placing blame at the start on others should always end up with where we are contributing to the problem and can do something about it. Otherwise, ignoring how we actually support the Caste system undermines the integrity of our morality.
Pointing out any monstrosity only has value if we can connect it to something we can do about it. That means, oh dear, we carry some responsibility ourselves.
And pointing out any monstrosity without connecting it to our behavior is just a distraction from dealing with the reality of our own behavior.
This was my point. Don't shout at the darkness unless you are willing to light a candle. That's my suggestion.
I see how strongly you hate cruelty and racism. Now understand how your financial choices may be fueling it, get through the "I can't do anything about it" BS, and find other choices, adjust your lifestyle to support those.
? With Love.....
Spence
Posted by: Spence Tepper | May 11, 2023 at 05:38 AM
@ Spence
Haahaha ...the evil of wealth
Is not so much the [criminal, inhumane] way it was created
nor the use of that wealth itself
but ....
The suggestion that it is needed to live a real life as a human being
AND
that others will never partake in it.
See what image the TV and other media precsent to the world daily.
Cultural colonialization
Lao Tzu said correctly if you do not want to be robbed, then not ride in horse carts loaded with wealth
That is what happens with the poor ... and now they flood in streams to the educated countries to get their share..
Posted by: um | May 11, 2023 at 08:27 AM
Hi Um:
You wrote:
"The evil of wealth
"Is not so much the [criminal, inhumane] way it was created
nor the use of that wealth itself
but ....
The suggestion that it is needed to live a real life as a human being
AND
that others will never partake in it."
No, you misunderstand.
Poverty that is growing due to growing economic enslavement.
Disease that is growing due to growing poverty.
Starvation that is growing due to growing poverty and disease.
This has nothing to do with desire. You are mistaken. Or projecting your own.
People don't need much, I agree on that point. But when a few wealthy folks take even what those people need to survive away, through forced economic enslavement, that is evil, and wrong.
Sadder still the illusion among those who make excuses that doing nothing doesn't incur Karma.
Or worse still, that trying to help is wrong.
When such cruelty and barbarism is on the rise, as it is today, inaction piles the karma high among those who choose to look away.
We are all connected. There is no escape. And the more true freedom you find within, freedom through understanding and insight, the more you are confronted with this fact.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | May 11, 2023 at 09:06 AM
How do you know when someone wealthy is taking too much, stealing from the work of others?
It's not a complicated answer.
What is a living wage?
Whatever is a living wage for you, is a living wage for me.
And whatever is a living wage for me, is a living wage for you.
It's that simple.
Yes, luxuries are very nice to have, if they can be acquired without theft.
But if you do not have a living wage, and are in my employ, then my luxuries are acquired by theft from you.
It's not a complicated equation.
Make as much money as you like. Don't steal it from anyone.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | May 11, 2023 at 09:24 AM
@ Spence
The world is daily served by means of media with images of YOUR [american] way of life: a life of abundance .. the life of the well to do, well educated upper middle classes and above.
How did that abidance came to be?
Who uses that abundance
Who suggests the world what is the norm of living?
They come by the thousands to your country to partake in that wealth.
If you do not give it they will take it.
Or you have to kill them as "rats" that feed on "your" harvest.
Posted by: um | May 11, 2023 at 09:27 AM
Hi Um:
You wrote:
"They come by the thousands to your country to partake in that wealth.
If you do not give it they will take it.
Or you have to kill them as "rats" that feed on "your" harvest."
Some are fleeing oppression, starvation and disease and many have suffered the loss of family members, including children to terrorist regimes.
We are all, as members of the human race, responsible to help.
Your depiction of immigrants is a false image.
It's part of that caste system, that systemic and invisible racism that makes foreigners "bad" and "wrong" simply for being alive. That makes the poor, diseased, starving and disabled "guilty" and "sinful". The kind of systemic racism that blames other people for being oppressed, and justifies their oppressors! All to excuse how our own economics have depended upon that very oppression. And so it is just an excuse for the status quo.
I don't agree with your depiction, and actually see it as part of what defines systemic racism and bigotry.
But if it is systemic, instututionalized, invisble to the one conditioned to think like that, I can't fault you.
I only ask that you take a deeper investigation into a broader sample of immigrants. You will find many children and families are fleeing for their lives and in real need of assistance. And you may find that many who have contributed positively to our world economy, including the one that keeps you comfortable, were such folks, peoplel of color, of different beliefs and orientation, starving children who found sanctuary, support, education from the help of others.
We are meant to help each other, Um. You could not have entered the human form without that quality. Now that you are here, and ready to go beyond, is it wise to lose that quality? We can go down just as easily as we came up.
But regardless, what happens to those children harms us, we are them, they are us.
That image is not connected at all to those fleeing for their lives, and the lives of their children, whom they are responsible for.
Do not erase their voice to justify your inaction.,
Just say "I don't care about other people" and we can agree to disagree.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | May 11, 2023 at 09:44 AM
@ Spence
Feel free to portray me in any way it suits you but it will not help to wash your hands in innocence
Posted by: um | May 11, 2023 at 10:19 AM
@Spence
Let I make it clear:
I never had the intention to do good, nor bad to anybody.
Some of what i did to others was bad
Some of what I did was good
That is my way of saying, what he put before me
Do not leaf your path to do good in the world, leaf that to those that are appointed for that role
but
if somebody crosses you path and stands in need of your help, just give what he needs.
Remember that chains of gold are binding you to this world as well as chains of iron.
Do not try to turn a prison cell B in a first class cell and .. to not try to extinguish the burning house .. let it burn.
What could I said to him?
Should I have addressed him in public as you do here?
Posted by: um | May 11, 2023 at 10:55 AM
Hi Um:
You wrote,"I never had the intention to do good, nor bad to anybody."
Really?
Didn't you write:
""They come by the thousands to your country to partake in that wealth.
If you do not give it they will take it.
Or you have to kill them as "rats" that feed on "your" harvest."
Lovely. This is what bigotry looks like.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | May 11, 2023 at 01:33 PM
@ Spence
Yes, yes Spence
Things, words others write etc are all what they are,
seldom what they look like
let alone how they are presented.
Working in the kitchen I learned that potatoes can not be cooked "GOOD", better or best. They are either done or not ...and ... they have to be done
There is no bigotry in cooking.
Posted by: um | May 11, 2023 at 01:45 PM
Hi Um:
You wrote:
"Working in the kitchen I learned that potatoes can not be cooked "GOOD", better or best. They are either done or not ...and ... they have to be done"
Yes, of course. We are all conditioned to be what we are.
I always encourage everyone to do better. It is the job of management to do so. Call it an occupational hazard. My conditioning as well.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | May 11, 2023 at 05:23 PM
@ Spence
To say .."I eat"...there must be food on te table and hunger.
To perform at the stage and to be applauded there as a [manager] musician, there must be a talent and the urge to act in that role.
Your training, your conditioning started at early age ... at the diner table at home.
There you learned there to convince others, there you were "encouraged" to do better.
That conditioning brought forth fruit.
Posted by: um | May 12, 2023 at 01:08 AM
There is a caste system in RSSB, dera beas under the leader of sociopath Gurinder singh dhillon. Those that are chosen special ones that have been put in positions of power, given special privileges, that exhibit superiority complex, that are only there because they are useful to the nascasit baba ( rather like the inner circle of Hitler and the SS) and then there is the blind sheep commoners, that do all the work.
Posted by: Kranvir | May 15, 2023 at 02:04 PM
@ Kranvir
Sociopath, is an word used to label certain behavior by professional psychiatrists and other professionals after a critical examination of an person.
You Kranvir, are you an psychiatrist?
If so, you are acting unprofessional by stating an verdict without proper examination of the person.
If not ....in that case, just have a look in the mirror
Posted by: um | May 15, 2023 at 02:17 PM