Great questions to ask of Gurinder Singh, the RSSB guru

Here in the United States, candidates for a high political office typically have to answer many questions from citizens and journalists. The background of the candidate is looked into. The sources of their income are divulged. They're asked their opinion on important policy issues.

This is as it should be. A person who wants to occupy a high-ranking position needs to show that they deserve the public trust before asking citizens to vote for them in an election. That's how democracy works.

But when it comes to a person seeking initiation from the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, a religious organization based in India, it is very difficult to get answers about the personal life of the guru, who currently is Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

That bothers someone who recently sent me questions that they think should be asked and answered by the guru. Here's what they said. I corrected some typos and translated a few words in an Indian language that would be unfamiliar to most readers. The Dera is the RSSB headquarters in India.

Brian, I've been wondering about a subject for many days: that there should be a dialogue between the Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) guru and potential disciple from both sides and not from one side only.

For example, at the time of applying for initiation in India, questions are asked from only the guru's side. If the applicant has any questions, he does not have any solid means of knowing the answers, while every potential disciple wants to know the complete information about his future Guru.

Most of the time information regarding the RSSB guru is being denied by the Dera authority on the basis that the personal information of the guru could not be revealed.

Whenever a person goes to the Dera to apply for initiation, some questions are asked of that person. Like, when did he give up meat, fish and eggs; do you smoke or use alcohol; how many talks given by the guru have you attended; what is your education qualification; what work do you do; how much money do you earn; are you married; why do you want to get initiated; is there any other devotee in your family, etc.

These same questions are asked many times of different persons applying for initiation. However, no questions are asked of the guru who is going to give the initiation, while transparency should be maintained equally from both the guru and the disciple.

There are some questions which I believe every disciple deserves the answer to before initiation.

Has the guru ever eaten meat and eggs?

Has the guru ever taken any kind of intoxicant: alcohol, drugs, etc?

Has the guru had a physical relationship with anyone other than his wife before or after marriage?

What is the educational qualification of the guru?

What is the value of the ancestral or personal property owned by the guru?

What is the source of the guru's income?

How many people are in the guru's family? What sort of work do they do? What are the sources of their income?

How much income tax was paid by the guru in the most recent year?

Has any criminal case been registered against the guru in India or outside India?

Is the guru a party in any court case?

How many hours usually are spent each day in meditation by the guru?

Does the guru claim that he has access to Sach Khand [highest heaven]? Does the guru have the ability to take his disciple to Sach Khand?

Has Gurinder Singh ever lied after becoming the RSSB guru?

The sevadars who cook food, do cleaning or do the guru's personal work at the Dera, are they paid by the guru, or by the RSSB trust, or is free service taken from them?

How many sevadars are appointed by the RSSB trust at the houses of the guru's family members and relatives? Do they work for free or are they on a salary?

Regarding the helicopter which is used on various satsang tours in India by the guru, who is the owner of the helicopter and who bears the expenses of the helicopter like pilot's salary, airport rent, petrol etc.?

Does the guru also use the helicopter for his personal trips? If so, then who bears the expenses?

Who is the owner of the private jet which is used by the guru?

Who bears the expenses of private jet foreign tours?

Does the guru also use the private jet to meet his family in England or Singapore? If so, then who bears the cost?

Who bears the expenses of the guru's clothes, food, personal needs, expensive cars etc.?

Has the guru accepted any gift (money, expensive item, land) given by any disciple or relative?

Who can become part of the RSSB trust? Is it allowed to a common poor RSSB disciple to become part of the organization as a trustee? What are the requirements to become a member of the RSSB trust?

Comments

[Arun Marwah]

Impossible that anyone dares ask these questions to the God in human form!
And even if someone does ask, he or she will be kicked out of the dera!

[Osho Robbins]

RSSB is a path for the faithful.
It is inherently different from electing a political leader.
With a political leader, you are going to decide who to vote for, and you have a choice of many competing candidates. You will choose the most credible one.

RSSB is different. Sure, you can do your research. You can read the various articles on COTC.
You can decide if RSSB is for you.
If it isn't, then you won't be applying for initiation.
If it is for you, then you must clearly have faith, and not be interested in those questions.

Once you decide to get initiated, you are taking a leap of faith.
You are no longer a sceptic.
If you are going to judge the guru, then why seek initiation?

Initiation is for those who have faith, and don't seek answers to those type of questions

This applies to all religions. The faithful never question.

check this out
https://youtu.be/Wd0TM-jDqmo

Don't watch the whole thing. just go straight to 29:50 (i.e. just under 30 minutes) which is just 2 minutes from the end.
The caller is a muslim. The host calls him out. He says "you know islam is not the truth and
that it's bullshit" The caller says "no, i don't and don't ever say that!"
yet, he has been saying the same to the host in the call.

The faithful will never doubt or question because they have faith.
Not only that, usually their belief is the centre of their life.
Take that away, and their life falls apart.
that's not convenient, so doubting is not a pleasant option.

As long as you believe, there is hope.

There is a man on a train. The ticket collector comes and the passenger cannot find his ticket.
He searches every pocket many times, except his shirt pocket.
The man sitting opposite tries to assist, "you have not checked your shirt pocket"
"I know," says the passenger. "I cannot check that pocket because it's my last hope. As long as I
don't check there is the possibility that it might be there. If I check, and it's not there, then
I am really doomed"

The faithful survive on faith

[Osho Robbins]

I can answer all those questions easily. For brevity, I will use this shortcut.
NOYFB = None of your fucking business. The 'F' is optional but I include if or effect
if you are easily offended, I apologise, and in that case, just replace it with the more
polite NOYB of even more polite "PDAPQ" (Please Don't Ask Personal Questions)

Has the guru ever eaten meat and eggs? NOYFB

Has the guru ever taken any kind of intoxicant: alcohol, drugs, etc? NOYFB

Has the guru had a physical relationship with anyone other than his wife before or after marriage?
NOYFB

What is the educational qualification of the guru? How is that relevant to you?

What is the value of the ancestral or personal property owned by the guru? NOYFB

What is the source of the guru's income? NOYFB

How many people are in the guru's family? What sort of work do they do? What are the sources of their income? NOYFB

How much income tax was paid by the guru in the most recent year? NOYFB

Has any criminal case been registered against the guru in India or outside India? NOYFB

Is the guru a party in any court case? NOYFB

How many hours usually are spent each day in meditation by the guru?
NONE - after enlightenment no mediation is needed

Does the guru claim that he has access to Sach Khand [highest heaven]?
NO - because there is no such place. God is not in time and space

Does the guru have the ability to take his disciple to Sach Khand?
NO because you are not separate - and there is nowhere to take you

Has Gurinder Singh ever lied after becoming the RSSB guru?
Of course - why not? everyone lies. in fact truth cannot be spoken
once it is spoken it becomes a lie.

The sevadars who cook food, do cleaning or do the guru's personal work at the Dera, are they paid by the guru, or by the RSSB trust, or is free service taken from them?
of course they are not paid. seva is a privilege. They are grateful for the opportunity

How many sevadars are appointed by the RSSB trust at the houses of the guru's family members and relatives? Do they work for free or are they on a salary?
That is a special privilege, and takes a long time to get

Regarding the helicopter which is used on various satsang tours in India by the guru, who is the owner of the helicopter and who bears the expenses of the helicopter like pilot's salary, airport rent, petrol etc.?
Most likely RSSB is the owner and RSSB pays those costs

Does the guru also use the helicopter for his personal trips? If so, then who bears the expenses?
NOYFB. He may if he chooses, use it. why are you concerned?

Who is the owner of the private jet which is used by the guru? RSSB

Who bears the expenses of private jet foreign tours? RSSB

Does the guru also use the private jet to meet his family in England or Singapore? If so, then who bears the cost? NOYFB and RSSB

Who bears the expenses of the guru's clothes, food, personal needs, expensive cars etc.?
He pays them from his own personal wealth, he is not a pauper

Has the guru accepted any gift (money, expensive item, land) given by any disciple or relative?
Not personally. but RSSB is a charity and you can give freely to it if you choose.

Who can become part of the RSSB trust? Is it allowed to a common poor RSSB disciple to become part of the organization as a trustee? What are the requirements to become a member of the RSSB trust?
Why would you want to be a member? are you interested in your spiritual journey or membership?

[Student]

In a class the students are questioned, the teacher isn’t questioned by the teacher. Not sure why this is any different.

[Student]

Isn’t questioned by the student

Sorry typo

[arun marwah]

@student, All RSSB books lay great emphasis on a disciple testing his Guru before initiation. In other words, every person has the right to make sure he is following a genuine Guru. However, in practice, no one, NO ONE does this because of process of a successor appointed by preceding or departing Guru.

[um]

@ Arun Marwah

Find a book where it says what you wrote.
Please English versions and the page.

[Dolus]

Some of the questions are good, such as "where does the money come from for these private jets."

I find many of the questions a bit silly, such as "does the guru eat meat." Really?

I find other questions of the smell of the "when did you stop beating your wife" variety, such as those about the guru's sex life.

Other questions I find tediously socialist, such as the one about whether sevadars receive a salary. The pertinent question in respect to all matters of finance and RSSB should be whether there's evidence that the guru's family is siphoning off seva funds to their own bank accounts.

The funniest thing about all these questions is that none of them are applied to the last guru. Remember him? He didn't have a job for 40 years, but somehow he and his family lived in wealthy spendour. Where did the $ come from to support Charan Singh and crew? Ah, the "farm." Perhaps so, but how did his family accrue so much land? How did a farm produce so much income?

I've been asking these questions for 30 years, and what do the exers say? "Gurinder bad, Charan good" is their mantra. So strange. Or maybe not.

I could go on, but I agree with this person that questions need to be asked, so way to go.

[hickory dickery dock]

Ho fng hum

[Osho Robbins]

Maharaj Charan Singh Ji had no great ambitions. He had no desire to become the guru. He simply carried on his duty as he was appointed by his predecessor. International centres were not established. Instead simple school halls were hired each Sunday for Satsang.
He had no private jets. He was not a businessman.
Gurinder Singh Dhillon has played a different role. He has put RSSB on the international map. When you play at that level, clearly some things will go I wrong. It is inevitable.
As for using the jet or luxury cars etc, it is hardly a big deal.
If you look at a charity like cancer research for instance, the directors take a substantial salary.

The teaching say the guru will never use anything like this for his own personal benefit,
however when you look at the scale of the RSSB organisation, any small amount like a trip in a car
has to be seen in context.

GSD doesn't need money from RSSB anyway. He had the business deal with the Singh brothers, which has generated so much money for many generations to come. GSD is no pauper.

For those who are able to understand, He gives a very different message.
That God is not far away - there is only the ONE
Example is this video. http://tiny.cc/GSD111
watch @ 2:10 the questioner says very clearly "I want to merge with God, so I am meditating"
answer: "You can never do it. The moment you said 'I want to merge with God, finished'"
The two are not separate, and as long as you think of yourself as separate, the merging cannot happen.
@4:08 he explains there is no journey "I don't have to go anywhere"
before the videos people would say I am making it up. Now you can hear it first hand.

[Appreciative Reader]

"I've been asking these questions for 30 years, and what do the exers say? "Gurinder bad, Charan good" is their mantra. So strange. Or maybe not."

I'm not an exer, Dolus, but I'd say the verdict is: "Charan in-principle dodgy"; but "Gurinder much worse, and much more transparently worse."

That still leaves scope for Charan to have been de facto much better than he was, even allowing for the in-principle dodginess of the whole guru business; and it still leaves scope for Gurinder to have been (or yet to be) much worse than he actually is, that is to say he's better than a good many others.

But I suppose "Charan in-principle dodgy; but Gurinder much worse, and much more transparently bad" more or less sums it up.

---

"...I agree with this person that questions need to be asked, so way to go."

Oh yes, absolutely, questions do need to be asked, these questions, and others as well. And demand to be answered, oh yes. Agreed, absolutely.

[Appreciative Reader]

"In a class the students are questioned, the teacher isn’t questioned by the teacher. Not sure why this is any different."

Posted by: Student | April 03, 2023 at 01:22 AM

----------

You've got a weird idea of effective teaching pedagogy, "Student".

True, one does see what you describe in the dodgier teaching shops, but I assure you that isn't the universal norm. And, more importantly, even in those unfortunate teaching shops where such standards prevail, that observation is descriptive not prescriptive; and it is absurd to go claiming that because one sees such abysmal and dysfunctional standards followed in some factories, sorry, institutes of learning, therefore those same standards ought to apply elsewhere.

---

Effective teaching does incorporate students asking their teacher/s questions, and teacher/s answering them competently and honestly.

[Appreciative Reader]

Hello, Osho Robbins. Long time!

Loved your story about the guy in the train who's reluctant to check his shirt pocket. That very nicely and entertainingly illustrates the psychology of that sort of thing. I suppose a variation on the Ostrich-with-head-inside-sand thing, where people do go through the motions of looking and checking, but refrain from going all the way.

Haha, I can see the same sort of thing applying to a husband who suspects his wife's cheating on him, for instance (or vice versa, of course); or maybe a father who suspects that his son is doing hard drugs, or is running with a violent gang, or maybe stealing from him. Not that that happens always, of course, but one can well see it happening, absolutely: the psychology of it makes perfect sense. And yes, absolutely, the same principle might well apply to the faith-and-religion thing.

[AA]

To what extent is it appropriate to travel in expensive cars, private airplanes with the money donated by poor people of india?
flaunt of lavish life in such kind of country like india where more than fifty percent population lives in below poverty line.

[OshoRobbins]

before covid, and i think a week before the incident i wrote about at Haynes park, I had posted this, which became a popular post (over 300 comments). Now that we can see GSD's videos online, this is no so "far out" but at the time, many readers found it hard to believe.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/08/osho-robbins-talks-with-gurinder-singh-dhlllon.html

[OshoRobbins]

Hi AR, i've been away from the site for quite a while.
nice to heard from you. I hope all is well in your world.

you wrote "
Haha, I can see the same sort of thing applying to a husband who suspects his wife's cheating on him"

I have a story about that too.
A man hires a private detective to check on his wife while he is away on business.
The detective report back after a few weeks.
"I saw her meeting a man in a bar. They both went back to your house.
I kept watching, and soon the downstairs light went out and the bedroom light came on.
I could see the silhouette and shadow of a man and a woman getting close to each other
in the bedroom. then the lights went out"
"I knew it!" said the husband "I had my suspicions, and still we have no evidence because just
at the crucial time the light went out, so we don't know what happened next."
"But keep on following her to see if you can get any evidence."

You believe what you want to believe.

A muslim believes that Muhmmad split the moon into two. He backs this up with evidence, because some recent article says "Strange crack appears in the moon."
That becomes his evidence

[um]

@ AA

To the extent that it helps to prevent certain people to knock at his door and others to leave.... outside India mostly.
Hahjahaa

The days that one could impress others with so called and would be spiritual interest has gone and with it the interest in Indian music, the spiritual bookshops. End of the power flower era and people.

What remains are some that cannot get over it ... old [frustrated] hippies of 70 en older
Hahahaa

Back to normal ..western stuff ... a good material life in a material way ... hahaha
No nonsense ... hail to the scientists ...hahaha

[Garry Shirley]

Now that is a fun set of question,
I hope they all get asked and answered.
I hope I am there to hear the answers,

[La Madrugada]

My question for GSD:
What happens with the huge amount of cash money collected during the so called -money seva- when the satsangis are treated like cattle in Dera, have seen it with my own eyes..

[Ron E.]

Although quite pertinent for some, question like these are pretty much pointless to anyone who (as Osho commented) has faith. Faith is generally considered to be a complete trust or confidence in someone or something or in the religious/spiritual sense, an allegiance or loyalty to a duty or a person, a strong belief in the doctrines of a religious or spiritual group, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

The question is, but why do we need faith to live? Well, we obviously employ a certain faith to function in everyday matters being simply the motivation to live and perform. It is probably wired into our genes as a survival mechanism – and to this end it is quite natural and enters every sphere of our lives.

One must wonder though, that apart from the physical need for faith why we also need the psychological aspect of faith. We need to have faith in the person holding the rope on the cliff ledge above us but why invest such faith in someone or some groupings that expound or represent teachings or concepts that are beyond proof. What is it that we are after? Why do we chase after mythic explanations – when the wonder of life is all around us?

Perhaps it is simply that as ego-centered creatures we always have the need to be right. It maybe gives us a certain ‘self’ satisfying sense of security to feel to be one of the saved – one who has chosen the right beliefs or right path. It is also comforting to belong to a community of like-minded people.

Indeed, it is difficult to stand alone on such matters of faith and belief.

[woo]

The RSSB Guru’s life sounds miserable really. 24/7 having to meet with people and manage all sorts of Dera and Satsang business. All of his “things” = work and no enjoyment. It sounds like an utterly miserable existence. The only way to enjoy that kind of life is to either desperately love fame or to be completely oblivious to it all. Either way, it’s a miserable existence for most.

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

(Original Thread)
"Whenever a person goes to the Dera to apply for initiation, some questions are asked of that person. Like, when did he give up meat, fish and eggs; do you smoke or use alcohol; how many talks given by the guru have you attended; what is your education qualification; what work do you do; how much money do you earn; are you married; why do you want to get initiated; is there any other devotee in your family, etc."

Looks like someone forgot about the section on the 'initiation appl' where it says, "Which books have you read?"

It also suggests, you pony up $$$ and get your free copy of HONEST LIVING, and if that's to expensive you'll pony up $$$ at Initiation.. Oops, no that's free too.

"@student, All RSSB books lay great emphasis on a disciple testing his Guru before initiation. In other words, every person has the right to make sure he is following a genuine Guru. However, in practice, no one, NO ONE does this because of process of a successor appointed by preceding or departing Guru."

Posted by: arun marwah | April 03, 2023 at 04:46 AM

I've tested my Guru before initiation. It was one of the hardest things I ever had to do. Comparing other Punjab Gurus, finding Documents, even Dera information no longer open to the public after forgeries of authentic RSSB file made Beas required an in-person visit from my ghetto. But I still found what Kal couldn't hide from, or to deceive me.

The Path of the Masters - J.P. Johnson said to do a throrough search in the beginning, even take year before giving full commitment to Initiation.

"..every man must come to this work "duly
and truly prepared, worthy and well qualified" is a
primary fact. If he is not so prepared in his heart,
he need not come. Neither money nor power, nor
wordly honors, nor position, nor learning, will avail
him anything. The inner preparation simply must
be made.
Let us now examine briefly what that preparation
consists of. By the phrase "flawless morality" is
meant that he must be on the level with his fellow
men; must be honest, sincere, truthful, just and kind.
He must be unselfish in his relations and dealings.
He must never live off others if he is able to work, and
this applies to women as well as men. It applies to
everybody. One must earn his own living if that lies
within his power. He must always seek to do what-
ever service he finds at hand to do. He must use his
wealth, if he has any, to do good, and never for selfish
gratification. He must lead a simple, straightforward
life, and become a noble example to all others. He
must be chaste, both in mind and in practice. Even
in the marriage relation, he must not be given to over-
indulgence of his passions. In other words, he must
be what the world generally calls a good man, not given to any form of self-indulgence. And when he
has attained that much, he is ready for the next step.."

"He must think long and deeply.
He must carefully discriminate between that which is
good and what is less good, between the true and the
false, the useful and the useless. While too many
books usually confuse the student, yet one must read
all that is available.."
-Taken from Chapter X sub 1. & 2.

"@ Arun Marwah

Find a book where it says what you wrote.
Please English versions and the page."

Posted by: um | April 03, 2023 at 06:21 AM

See the book mentioned above, but I'm not giving you the page. Have a cup of coffee and read again -Bub

P.S.
This may be 'off topic', irrelevant, too preachy, or relegated to an Open Thread

[IamnotGuru]

Hi, l have just come across UK govt website showing information about RSSB as a Charity
For Account year 2021(still awaiting for 2022 figures)

Total Income: £3.6m
From Donation and legacies (?): £1.9m
From Investment : £740k
From Charitable activities (what?) £947k

The question is what Investment RSSB did that got profit of £740k
What Charitable activities it did that it received nearly £2m pounds . I would be interested in those activities :-)
Now Expenditure

Spent £2m on Charitable activities, no details were given
Saved nearly £1.6m for future
Wow really doing good business that after all expenditure saved £1.6m
To me something must be going doggy here, May be GSD using these organizations to convert his dirty money into good one

Now next thing always people say that everyone working at Haynes, working free but it is not true as many are getting paid
They showed on paper that there are only 5 Trustees and 25 volunteer (what a lie)
Also no employee is getting more than £60k salary. So it means people must be getting £60k salary plus unlimited expenses

It also says One or more trustees are also directors of the subsidiaries. Which l guess must be Sunita Naddo(GSD right hand business partner) or Sanjeev Taggar
They all must be Earning millions from this organisation
These people have given tasks to recruit people and brainwashed them so they can work free and give donations

No information provided on how much Trustees earning
Trustee payments
No information available

It also says charity "Raise awareness of organ donations and support NHS in holding blood donation camps. Support other Charities in UK and Europe with similar objectives "

Before COVID they never helped NHS and never worked with any other charity(big lie)
Also it made me laugh when l read below

What the charity does:
Education/training
The Advancement Of Health Or Saving Of Lives
Religious Activities
Human Rights/religious Or Racial Harmony/equality Or Diversity

It also says it has liability of£1.7m but did not give any details

This charity is too doggy..

In 2019 it was in profit of more than £8m
Every year it is in profit..where all this money is going?
You can find all information on below link with their old financial details ( though they don't provide a receipt for donations so real donations might be many folds and you will never know where all money is going

It is not a small business..it is really a big scam it seems

https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=1013061&subid=0

[um]

@ Karim W. Rahmaan.

Is that all?
A book by a minister from the west?!

How can a person that is not at the level of a master, know what and who a master is?

Again.

Show me where in which English book is stated by one of the teachers of this lineage or other lineage how one can find and recognize a master and how to discriminate between the false and the genuine?

[um]

@ Karim Rahman

What you wrote is an advise given to seekers ... they are well advised to find out for themselves, whether this or that teacher and teacher suits him or her.

Why?

Because initiation is seen as an lifelong commitment that should not be taken simpel.

That doesn't mean that one can evaluate a teacher

In all traditions from the onset people are advised to stand on their own legs and take responsibility for their own decisions

[um]

@ Lamnot

Protestants in Europe have to pay "religious taxes" to their church. In Germany by law!!

How were castles built?
How where mosques, synagogues, churches and temples built/
How could the monastic orders in Europe lay the foundation for our modern society?

The were build in the same way and by the same people as all the ashrams in India are build.

In a couple of days RC celebrate Easter .. have a look if you can on the ceremony at the Vatican on TV and marvel at what you see displayed in terms of wealth ... each man in purple, the princes of the church, you see is a walking millionaire.

What do you think about the luxury of the presidents and kings of this world., the ceo'of multinationals .. have a look at their buildings, their offices, their staff etc etc ... they are the modern version of the feudal nobility.

What do you think the running of these institutions costs

You pay taxes ... for what my friend??

[Tim Rimmer]

Hey Osho
Nice to see your comments from the other day. Hope you are well.
I had a look at the recent GSD Q&A clip, you included in your post.
First time in a while I’ve listened to what GSD is currently saying. Interesting. Based on what I heard/saw written, it’s cool to hear that GSD says ‘separation’ (belief in) is the problem - and that ‘awareness’ and ‘stillness’ are the solution (c5.50). E.g. he says at 5.18, ‘If you think of separation, if you think of, you know, a goal, He’s there, I’m here, then you are making the journey difficult’. Well it would still seem to me heaps of folk have bought into exactly the latter, by adhering to the RSSB/SM dogma based around the core teaching (as I remember) that ‘we are separated souls, needing to get back to the father’.
Ongoing reworking of old ground on this blog, we have discussed this many times and yet I admit the contradiction continues to still irk me somewhat.
Best to all

[AA]

@IamnotGuru
Great information and analysis
Nothing is transparent in RSSB and with GSD , everything is hidden , no one can raise questions against them , even they are not much clear about spiritualism .

What is spirituality and spiritualism?

Spirituality could be explain by like it is actually like a recycle mechanism of religion itself. Those who are a little studious, coming to the level of maturity, the realization of the baselessness of the claims of religion starts shaking their faith. Only then the web of spirituality surrounds them.

[AA]

spirituality is nothing but religiosity equipped with a few better dogmas. Spiritual people may think of themselves as free seekers, but in reality they have become only slightly more skilled at self-deception than ordinary religious people.

[AA]

If you look at the basic spirit of spirituality, you will find that its entire effort is to keep you away from doubt and logic. Because they can control your mind only by keeping you away from doubt and logic.

That's why all spiritual guru or sect that stops you from doubting, turns you away from reason is nothing but a means to enslave you. Doubt ,debate and reasoning is not a disease but a means to keep you away from disease.

[Dungeness]

@ Tim [Well it would still seem to me heaps of folk have bought into exactly the latter, by adhering to the RSSB/SM dogma based around the core teaching (as I remember) that ‘we are separated souls, needing to get back to the father']

Metaphoric explanations can be confusing to children of all ages.
Ishwar Puri related how he abhorred the tale that the soul was a
'drop of water trying to merge back into the mighty ocean'. To his
young ears it was lose-lose: the ocean didn't gain anything from
one more tiny drop but by merging he lost the itsy-bitsy identity he
had developed in life.
As he grew spiritually, he realized it was only an explanation for
children. In truth, he had never left the ocean. He had simply lost
his awareness of it and would recover it in the fullness of time.

[Kranvir]

The fake ass guru will always make sure that the relevant questions are never asked. More so the answers to questions that are asked , he clowns around , always leave one feeling even more confused and it's better to ask Google or siri for more sensible answers to lifes problems.

Questions to ask from the top of my head:

1. Why is the god head passed down a family line? Guru by contract? Could it be related to money and property?

2. You say to ruin one's life give them a million pounds, yet your a billionaire from fraudulent obtained money - can you explain the hypocrisy?

3. You say god is within you, so why in the hell am I following you then?

4. You say you are at one with god, so why are you scared of people , hiding behind security sevadar ? Why do you have fear ?

5. Why are you hiding from court if your innocent, why don't you go there and prove your innocent?

6. You say you not allowed to look at the opposite sex, so why have you been caught red handed perving at satsangs you dirty old man?

7. Why have you never shared your personal experience on how you got god realization? Could it be that your a liar

8. Why is no one allowed to share their spiritual experiences, could it be they don't have any?

9. Why is it that millions that do meditation never see any results ( it is a science of the soul after all) could it be the path is alload of bullocks?

10. Why do we have to sign a contract to be initiated when we are already connected to god , could it be you are taking us in the opposite direction?

11. You have over 16 companies, hang out with politicians, do you do any meditation? I strongly believe you never have

12 why are we told to repeat kaals name in our top secret mantra (jot nirunjan = light of Lucifer) doesn't that bring him forth ?

13 why are most satsangis unhappy and suffering more than others, even when they are supposed to be initiated by a god in human form ? Could it be that you have deviously sold our soul to the devil unknowingly?

14. Prove to me you are from true god as all the evidence suggests you are the devil/kaal incarnation in human form?

15. Why did you kill your wife ?

17. Why is image more important to you than values and morals ?

.... etc

[um]

@ Kranvir

>> why are most satsangis unhappy and suffering more than others, even when they are supposed to be initiated by a god in human form ?
Could it be that you have deviously sold our soul to the devil unknowingly?<<

How do you know kranvir?
Have you spoken to "most satsangis" ?

How do you know what relationship he has with the devil?
Did they tell you?
How did you find out?

[Trust but verify]

Find a book where it says what you wrote.
Please English versions and the page.

Posted by: um | April 03, 2023 at 06:21 AM

Um, please look at The Path of the Masters, page 202: "....if I was looking for a Master, I would first of all make the most critical inspection of the man's life to determine if he had any of the ordinary imperfections of character usually manifested by the average man....but if he failed to pass the inspection as a man, I would at once give up the search in him as a Guru or Master."
Page 203-222 he further describes the characteristics of a Guru/Master.

Spritual Primer 4th edition pages 37-42 suggest similar ideas
Sar Bachan has an entire poem on guru's virtues.
Kabir the weaver mystic describes in detail who is a true master.
As you and others have said here, anyone can draw his/her conclusions.

[obvious]

I can’t wait to see who the next guru is going to be. In this digital age there won’t be anything hidden or secret about the next RSSB guru.

[AA]

If there is a god, then he should be concerned with the devotion of the devotee and not with the way of worshiping him.

Big question , why god needs mediator ? Like GSD

[um]

@ Trust but verify

Thank you for taking the trouble for searching the books.

If what you have found, was found in going through many books it underlines only what I wrote before.

The teachings of santmat following Kabir, state that nobody is able to recognize a master unless he is on the same level.
That said, seekers are well advised to find out for themselves, if they want to be guided by this or that teacher and THAT is what Mr. Johnson is talking of..

And the other places you refer to the poems of Kabir and others, these are written by people in Ecstasy, people on the same level. The words they speak is about what THEY see, not about what an seeker sees or can see, not being at the same level

Even in everyday life ... how would a student, know who has mastered a craft, an art or an field of knowledge, missing all that is needed to make such an judgement as he is a STUDENT ... he cannot but base his judgement on HEARSAY and BELIEVE the word of others as being an objective truth.

Listen to the talks of satsangis .. they all know who and what is a perfect master .... but .. that is nothing but making themselves believe to be true what they do not know to be true based upon their own experience.

And ... that is all right as there is no other way around.

THEY .. the seekers have to have FAITH in what they HEARD from OTHERS.

And ... I am sure you came across those places that state that nobody can know or recognize a master.

[um]

@ AA
>> Big question , why god needs mediator ?<<

God does not need one but the mediator is instrumental in generating that energy etc that is needed to come to knowledge.

It is like seeing a flower, that generates, provokes, the moving of say "love" in a person.

Life was "given" for free ...love is the only thing that can be given for free too. To make that energy rise up as in a well and stream like a river running towards the reservoir of water ... is the trick.

That is why is said:
God is love
and
love is God

A spiritual path, any of them, is just an INVITATION to create an opening for love to stream. ...the poems of arrived mystics of all over the world are testimony to this truth
They cannot longer contain that love and have to pour iit out in poems.

If I can see these things how much more can those , having a loving heart, see this ... hahahaha ...time for coffee.

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"The teachings of santmat following Kabir, state that nobody is able to recognize a master unless he is on the same level.
That said, seekers are well advised to find out for themselves, if they want to be guided by this or that teacher and THAT is what Mr. Johnson is talking of.."

Posted by: um | April 07, 2023 at 12:45 AM

OK.

Anybody out therr need artificial intelligence to do a timeline? Here we go..

From the main website RSSB dot org, it says and I quote, "RSSB was established in India in 1891 and gradually began spreading to other countries.." (full history can be Bing'd)

Sawan Singh was the successor of his predecessor Jaimal Singh from "1903–48" (found below)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawan_Singh

Most millennials won't know but Dr. Julian P. Johnson's book the Path of the Masters was one of the first English books released to the USA on the science. But if you do the timeline, you'll see that not much time passed during Sawan's tenure and the authorization of Johnson's book by Johnson's teacher, Sawan. (found below, also see refs.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Johnson

So without that book, I know I wouldn't know that Path existed.

And to ease confusion, Wikipedia lists 1939 as a French book, but the one online uploaded by Bahai IS completely in English.

[Osho Robbins]

""The teachings of santmat following Kabir, state that nobody is able to recognize a master unless he is on the same level."

Once you are 'at the same level' - you don't need to recognise, as you have the same thing, and are not seeking a guru anymore.

until you are at that level, you seek a guru, but you are not qualified to recognise.

basically you are doomed. if you find a true guru, it will be by chance, not skill.

a bit like the groucho marx quote "I would never join a club that would have me as a member."

clearly he can never join any club.

[um]

@ Karim

That is correct; many people came by that road.
And yes, what is in the book is in the book but that doesn't mean it is all correct, all verified as being correct.

One can read that book as a book about RSSB, about the path
OR ...
One can read that book, as an declaration about Dr. Johnson as to how he perceived, digested appreciated what he came the see,hear and experience. ...he was not a or the guru.

He looked through "colored" glasses of an white, american minister

There have always been different issues with the content of the book and people have put that in the past many a time before MCS,. He Acknowledged these issues but did never give permission to change the book.

That said what he wrote was an advise to seekers to find out for themselves wether this would be the path for them .. that is a search in their own mind, their own heart.

It is was with marriage .. one can love many women but amongst them there are just a few with which to spend a whole life ... marriage as an istitution is an life long contract.
People tend to focus on the spouse to be but they could ask themselves these questions too .. can i and will i be a faitfull partner for this person.

[Trust but verify]

@Um: "There have always been different issues with the content of the book and people have put that in the past many a time before MCS,. He Acknowledged these issues but did never give permission to change the book."

I am curious as to how do you know this, Um?
If you know this, then you probably know why GM allowed a flawed book to be published?
Finally, isn't it one of books seekers are encouraged to read?

[um]

@ OshoRobins

>> .....basically you are doomed. if you find a true guru, it will be by chance, not skill.<<

The way you put it doesn't tell me what you see but how you look at it.

That said, it is correct to say that you do not have the faintest idea what you embark on.
One can look upon this issue and find an answer from different stand-points.

Looking from outside and looking at the teacher and the teaching in terms of DESERVING
or .....
Looking from inside the teaching and looking at one's own mind and heart

Let me give an simplistic example .. you have an idea of how your next car would look like etc. You go to a seller, tell him what you are after and after a couple of days you are getting a call that the car has been found and there for you to collect. With a joyful heart etc you go to the shop and than it can happen that the car has indeed all the qualities you asked for but on seeing the car you just do not like it. Normally nobody buys a car

And Osho ... most if not all the things we do in life are an matter of ...CHANCE.
We take an deposit on the future.
We take the train believing we will end up in time and in good health ....
We marrie someone believing it will last .....
We go to educate our self and we believe it will result in a prosperous life.....
We do all these things believing they will bring us happiness, welfare etc

BUT do they always and in the way we had it in mind??

It is about ... US ... we cannot controll the world, our circumstances, the fielt we act in, but we have free choice ...AND ... we are FORCED to make use of that "free choice' and to accept the responsibilities for that choice and the consequences. And yes Osho, the consequences, as we operate in a world that is not under our controll, can often not as we thought it would be.

Anyway .. those who think that the can outsource their choices for a teacher and a teaching to that teacher, will find out that it is impossible.

That all said .. in the indian sant tradition, starting out with Kabir, as explained in the Anurag Sagar, its is not the seeker that finds a guru, but he is chosen by divinity to be brought back by a servat of that divinity.

This is not an declaration of my personal loyalty or lack of it

[um]

@ Trust and verify

How do I know?
Simple I heard these things be discussed many a time by MCS.

That said one does not need to be a teacher or a student to understand how that book came to be and was used.

If you go to another country and make your product available, you present it to the inhabitants of that country in their own language and in such an way that they are not scared away from the onset.

Teachers, are just representatives of divine merchandise ... hahaha

They come with an invitation to "buy" and consume their prodcts

[Jim Sutherland]

I was no doubt drawn to the Sant Mat path by reading, and digesting Dr. Julian Johnson’s book,…”The Path 0f the Masters.” I had graduated Seminary, earning my Th.D. In 1984, and had pastored my own Church before being initiated by Charan Singh ( by Proxy in California via. His Rep., Dr. Roland De Vries. ) . Dr. Johnson had been a Baptist Missionary, and Dr. De Vries a Christian Seminary Grad., with an earned Th.D. , as I also possessed. My final phone interview with Roland De Vries convinced me that Sant Mat was the Camino Real Path to the God Head, that fundamentalist Christianity of our time had taken too many wrong turns away from the True Path, that Sant Mat had recovered, and that I would also recover after I would be initiated by Charan Singh, who was believed to be God in human form at the time, as Jesus was God in human FORM during his time on earth. So, between Dr. Johnson’t books, my conversation with Roland De Vrise, and reading most 0f the RSSB books in English, I jumped off the cliff, entirely by FAITH, and was initiated in Feb. 1990, only 4 months before Charan left his body. I never met him in person, nor had time to form any personal relationship with him. I never arrived at the Dera until 2017, and my post visit report is archived some where on this blog.
Since then, I have had many disappointments, such as reading all the negative reports on this blog, as well as discovering Julian Johnson had been married four (4) times. ( Via Dr. David Lane’s research.)
So, with out going in to detail of where I am now,…all I will say is,” All that glitters is not always Gold.” Many times, there is rust and rot, beneath the gilded, foiled, or plated Gold coating.
Jim Sutherland

[Osho Robbins]

"Ishwar Puri related how he abhorred the tale that the soul was a 'drop of water trying to merge back into the mighty ocean'. To his young ears it was lose-lose: the ocean didn't gain anything from
one more tiny drop but by merging he lost the itsy-bitsy identity he had developed in life. As he grew spiritually, he realized it was only an explanation for children. In truth, he had never left the ocean. He had simply lost his awareness of it and would recover it in the fullness of time." - Dungeness

Who was the "he" who had lost the awareness? was it something separate from the ocean?
or was it the ocean?

The ocean has no awareness to regain.
awareness of what?

The individual soul does not exist at all. It only appears to exist.
After 'enlightenment' it is not going to experience awareness of itself as 'everything' or 'nothing'
There is not going to be any 'experience' or awareness.

only a separate entity within time/space experiences things like 'vastness, unity, separation etc'

the oversoul / god / ik onkar / sat purush / oneness / nothingness / X / whatever you want to call it / cannot be related to or understood by someone who only understands time and space.

"Existence" or "non-existence" is a duality concept. it has no meaning outside of time and space.

Anything I say about it (oneness / god etc) has to be untrue simply because it is impossible to say anything true.

[um]

@ Dr, Sutherland

>> …all I will say is,” All that glitters is not always Gold.” Many times, there is rust and rot, beneath the gilded, foiled, or plated Gold coating.<<

Reading that your are a theologian and what you wrote about how you came to know aboyt the path through other theologians, brought a smile on my face.

You have witnesses what can be found in the bible about the interaction of Christ with the theologians of THE time. ...telling them he came not to change the teachings but that they were.not walking the talk.

What mystics speak of can be compared with becoming president of the USA and winning the lottery. Yes .. everybody that buys a ticket can win the lottery, Yes, every american is entitled to become president but the chances that any individual American has are almost nil. ... the same holds with the attainment of mystics.

As long as religious feelings are inside the mind and heart it is alright but they are the source of problem as soon as they are expressed in in the light of the world.and shared with others. Love, real love, if it is there, better be kept secret.

In my book speaking mystics come and address social problems. In the days of Christ the Palestinians lived a miserable life under the occupation of the roman and they were hoping for divine intervention of the divine to get rid of them based on their interpretation of the words of their mystics in older days. Christ said in fact do not worry and waste yoiur time on outward conditions and the words of your previous mystics. Go into your own house, light that house by making your eye single and then ... then you will find there a kingdom of your own.

It is all a matter of psychology Doctor Suttherland ... in fact all form of mysticism can be translated in to ... do not seek lasting happiness and welfare outside yourself as you cannot control those circumstances, find rest and peace within your self, be free.

Mysticism is just an invitation to do that and it is not to help solve the problems of the world.

[PJ]

@obvious. The next 'guru' will be the closest male relative to GSD who they feel could pull it off, and hasn't seen the inside of a cell yet. 100 percent guaranteed.

[Dungeness]

@ Osho [ Dungeness: In truth, he had never left the ocean. He had simply lost his awareness of it and would recover it in the fullness of time." . Osho: Who was the "he" who had lost the awareness?
was it something separate from the ocean? or was it the ocean? ]

The "he" is the illusory self the "ocean" has conjured himself to be for the
sake of a game in duality.

Osho: The ocean has no awareness to regain. awareness of what?

Awareness of the game he has immersed himself in. When he drops the
mask, the blinkered state ends.

Osho: The individual soul does not exist at all. It only appears to exist. After
'enlightenment' it is not going to experience awareness of itself as 'everything'
or 'nothing'. There is not going to be any 'experience' or awareness. only a
separate entity within time/space experiences things like 'vastness, unity,
separation etc'. the oversoul / god / ik onkar / sat purush / oneness / nothing
ness / X / whatever you want to call it / cannot be related to or understood by
someone who only understands time and space. "Existence" or "non-existence"
is a duality concept. it has no meaning outside of time and space. Anything I
say about it (oneness / god etc) has to be untrue simply because it is impossible
to say anything true.

Right, individual souls do not exist but "oversoul/ god etc " can partition himself
in duality for an experience of time and space as a separate soul if he chooses
say the mystics. The transformative magic for effecting this joyride in the realm
of duality is beyond us but mysticism purports to reveal it within. As stated earlier
metaphoric language is the only way to hint at the truth for those trapped in duality.

[Jim. Sutherland]

@um,,,…I agree with most of what you said, but wonder if Coffee is your only indulgence that delivers a few sparks of light to your mind? I ask, only remembering many of your past comments admitting that you have never achieved any of the Inner promises of the Gurus, specifically, of Charan and the RSSB Gurus. You mentioned that only Love is real, inside, and once experienced, should never be shared by those who have been granted such a Gift. That, I disagree with. That would neuter every Mystic that ever incarnated since the beginning of human incarnations. Of course, who can ever explain the essence of real Love in any one else’s heart? If you have it, other than the love of Coffee, how about spreading a little around to the disgruntled Exers here to feel?

[um]

@ Dr Sutherland.

>> If you have it, other than the love of Coffee, how about spreading a little around to the disgruntled Exers here to feel?<<

How would that be possible?

In the contact with a kind person, everybody experiences that kindness in his or her own way, he need not to GIVE it .. as it cannot be given..

The profume is in the rose, it does not GIVE it, yet it is enjoyed by all that come near the rose.

[Osho Robbins]

@Dungeness
Once you accept that we are fictional characters, the idea of 'being saved' disappears.

there is nobody to save.

the real is already saved. the unreal cannot be.

end of struggle.

the struggle was to save the unreal

[Osho Robbins]

@Jim Sutherland

Hi Jim, hope you have been keeping well.
nice to hear from you

[Jim Sutherland]

@Osho,….good to hear from you as well, and hope you are as well as allowed to be, by The ONE , Who is always well…..,……
I am keeping as well as possible. Actually, very well, for an old man. Much more mellow, and less argumentative , with more controlled knee jerks. No argument won, is ever worth loosing a friend. The only real enemies any of us have, are those WE, or our minds, choose to think are enemies. But our only real enemy is our mind.
HE HAS RISEN,………..AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN!
Jim Sutherland

[um]

@ Osho

After having listened to your satsang I am really curious who and why they banned you as a speaker.

The only thing I can come up with, that there is nothing wrong with the content but with the presentation. With that I mean that I have never heard MCS or his successor address the audience in that manner and tone.

True words It seems, can not be spoken by everybody and to everybody.. When spoken at the wrong time even healty words can cause harm.

[swami umami]

Trust but verify,

To his credit, Dr Johnson argued against the death penalty. However, he recommended the sterilization of criminals as an alternative to prison. It's in older editions under Chapter Seven, part 9, but the idea has gone rather obsolete, and I don't think it survived more recent printings.

From Path of the Masters, 12th edition, 1980, page 402...
"To build up character, not to destroy the weak, is the duty of civilization. While the individual is under disciplinary and remedial training he may be controlled to the extent that he shall not be permitted to propagate his kind. This may be done in the interest of society, and that can be done without serious hardship upon the individual. He need not be put in prison, either. It is an easy and harmless process to sterilize either man or woman. There are always highminded and skilled surgeons who will be glad to render that service to the state free of charge. And the thing need not be advertised to the humiliation of the patient. It may be done in such manner that the patient himself shall suffer no loss whatsoever. Society may then go on with its training."

Study questions: How would Dr Johnson react to modern sociopolitical tendencies toward religious utopianism? Would he have been for or against mask and vaccine mandates?

[um]

@ Swami Unami

As far as I came to understand the organisation would opt for using masks and vaccines based upon the role:
:"In rome we do what the romans do"
That is not to say we have to become romans but we want to live as free humans among the the romans.

Mystics path are IN the world but not OF the world.

Just common sense will do to understand the do'd and don'ts of that organisation.

[Osho Robbins]

@um
you wrote
"After having listened to your satsang I am really curious who and why they banned you as a speaker.

The only thing I can come up with, that there is nothing wrong with the content but with the presentation. With that I mean that I have never heard MCS or his successor address the audience in that manner and tone."

I wasn't really "banned" as such. I just lost interest in continuing to do the satsang seva.
when I did it, it was very selective, only the centres that I booked etc.
I was authorised by Mrs Wood and made an instant national speaker.
However, I still chose not to give talks. Only a few, when I chose to.

Then the rules changed, and speakers were expected to give more talks.
and just at the same time, Narinder wrote to me about the amount on 'punjabi' in my
english talks and I had a meeting with Mr Chana who set out the rules to me.
I just bowed out by saying I am moving abroad soon, so it's fine "I'll just step down"

So it wasn't really a banning as such. It was more of a recommendation that I make a few
changes. I just did not want to continue, so I took the opportunity to step down.

My style of talking is different - but I don't just want to deliver a boring talk.
I want to have an impact - make a difference, otherwise I would rather not speak.
hence my style.

And make a difference I did - over half the sangat came to meet me after the talk, saying they
had never heard anything like this before and asking when my next talk was.
so clearly the sangat enjoyed the talk.
I only continued while I enjoyed it. If I am not inspired, I won't bother giving a talk.
I only enjoyed it when could choose when and where to book.
normally I would only book 3-4 talks a year. I don't like it to become a duty.

[um]

@ Osho

I understand that it was just an inside administrative affair.

It contrasts however with what you wrote in the past about your interactions with other sevadars.

All speakers have to go through their own personal experience and digest it.
Apart from the outside regulations as set by the organisation.

There are many different ways to go through the process of doing seva. and not everybody will reap the same fruits of that process .. some fruits are sour and others sweet.

[Osho Robbins]

@um,
The issues about the interactions etc you refer to was a separate matter.
when I was a speaker, none of those incidents had happened. I was not known to anyone at the time. I had never even asked a question on the mic either.

I don't have any issues with the sevadars or anyone else anymore.
The ban from satsangs has been lifted and we have put our differences behind us.

[um]

@ Osho

I see.
Thanks for the explanation.

[Osho Robbins]

@jim
"Much more mellow, and less argumentative , with more controlled knee jerks. No argument won, is ever worth loosing a friend. The only real enemies any of us have, are those WE, or our minds, choose to think are enemies. But our only real enemy is our mind."
wise words - I appreciate what you mean
so easy to get carried away within an argument

[Dungeness]

@ Osho [ Once you accept that we are fictional characters, the idea of 'being saved' disappears.
there is nobody to save, the real is already saved. the unreal cannot. ]

Abstractly, yes. But as repeated in satsang, awareness must grow
commensurately. Accepting that we're 'fictional characters' doesn't
liberate us. It must be seen and realized within. That's the unstated
yet key coda to GSD's remark about seeing yourself as a separate
entity trying to merge into god.

We're 'already saved', not by rote repetition of the phrase, but by
the progress inside. The words themselves ring hollow otherwise.

[Osho Robbins]

@Dungeness
I appreciate the point you are making.
It's a personal journey for every individual.

Take the talk I gave in Birmingham. It's just words.
Because words are all anyone can speak.

but where the words come from - that shows if they come from an
inner realisation or from a book.

if they come from a book - that is called varanatmik - spoken and in words.

If is come from an inner realisation - that is called dhunatmik.

Only the Dhunatmik will change your perspective.

So when your realisation is real - it means it is real for you - not book knowledge.

That is all that counts. Just repeating words will have no effect.

The wise man speaks from his wisdom and we jump on his wisdom and reduce it to knowledge

So anything that is just words will have no effect.

only that which comes from your inner reflection is real.
that is the meaning of meditation

[Kranvir]

More questions to ask the fake ass guru of beas, Gurinder Singh Dhillon (be warned, the establishment will switch off the mic if you attempt to lol)

1. You say a guru is a perfect living example for disciples to follow, so are you a Perfect example ? Lol

2. The first time christ came to the earth to free souls the devil tempted him with all the money in the world which he turned down , so my question is are you the second coming of Christ ? (Ps if you say yes your a hypocrite and a liar)

3. You say you must live a very high moral life as one of your vows. So my question is how come your a pervert ? How comes you've made many death threats to people ?

4. You always say love love love in your satsangs , so my question is where is the love to all the farmers whom youve ripped off of their hard earned land ?

5. You say we are all equal as humans , so how comes you have special sevadar with privileges above others ? How comes you sit on this highest stage ?

6. What is dreshti, why are we encouraged to look at your eyes in satsangs when No other guru has ever came to earth has ever done this practice?

7. Why do you need 5 secret words in initiation to the special chosen ones when everyone has god within them ?

8. Why is god only found in a special family and passed down a family tree ? Doesnt everyone have the same right ?

9. You say you can never serve 2 masters, so how come you worship money ?

10. Why do special Bollywood stars, ex policemen, politicians live for free in the dera while others work honestly and hard for just rotti work blood sweat and tears to earn a place in the dera , is this fair ? This sounds very much like elites and the slavery caste , what do u think ?

11. You are related to majithia, the drugs baron of beas, you are in bed with modi and politicians, just be honest , what is your true intentions for the sangat? Their enlightened and freedom from bondage or infact enslavement control and imprisonment of their mind body and soul ?

..... etc

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi Dungeness
I get your point re mystics using metaphors, and we all need stories to help us make sense of things, particularly if we’re babies on the so-called spiritual path, (mind you ‘be as little children..’ ). With time we can gain more insight into the nature of things as we live our life or rather ‘life lives us’. That the ‘One’ sort of divides itself off/contracts itself to play the game of human/separate soul, is one way various paths explain how reality operates and this to me, is as good an explanation as any. Yet the majority of my thinking (on this life-long topic) these days, says learn/realise/accept how to just be, moment by moment. The GSD clip pointed out by Osho seems to mark a continuing shift in the RSSB Guru’s way of explaining/outlining his take on things. The emphasis at least in his response to the questioner is very non-dual as far as I can see. He even talks of ‘feeling the present’. Did you look at the clip?
I think this is cool and at the same time it irks me because the whole thing seems so much simpler/easier when put this way (compared with how I remember the standard teaching). And children or not, the idea of the separate soul is so fundamental to the world view of RSSB/SM (and many other religio-cultural perspectives) that I would suggest it is THE main belief/barrier to any mystical/spiritual/average Joe Blog awakening. Having even a wow intellectual moment of understanding of this, is major ‘progress’ in my view, though what is it that progresses within?
To me it’s pleasing to see Osho say (and several times past), ‘The individual soul does not exist at all. It only appears to exist..’ and you yourself reply ‘Right, individual souls do not exist’, though continue to make the point that the big He likes to make ‘them’ for his game.
Taking a view of soul as being aligned with what we ultimately are (to avoid the soul/self debate) -
IMO we could boil things down to say:
What we think we are ‘an isolated self’ is not ultimately real, though we keep believing it is. Spirituality is a process of letting go of this belief.
What we are is what GSD in the clip calls ‘Paramatma’ explained as ‘the first (and only (my words)) soul’.
That’s my current take on it.
Best wishes

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"However, he recommended the sterilization of criminals as an alternative to prison. It's in older editions under Chapter Seven, part 9, but the idea has gone rather obsolete, and I don't think it survived more recent printings."

Posted by: swami umami | April 09, 2023 at 05:21 AM

You're misinterpreting J.P. Johnson's to the point of twisting words as in that Chapter it touches on Reincarnation and the broad spectrum of Social Reconstruction. Before your quote on Johnson, he stated his real view and point here,

"Sympathy should take the place of vindictive
punishment, the aim being to restore the individual to a
state of health and normality. The purpose should be
always to change him into a good citizen."

The parts after that are general ways society was dealing with criminals back then. Using Eugenics on many black so-called 'criminals'. But ultimately he's only saying that these were methods in use at the time, but theose too could not fully redeem people.

For instance, if you take a local white criminal today, like the guy who shot up that black church. They (police) rewarded him with a Burger King combo meal.
(see below)

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dylann-roof-burger-king_n_7645216

But still a slap on the hand for white people also won't redeem them neither. Not by the laws of the land nor of the Hindu/Buddhist beliefs for higher incarnations i.e. reincarnation; pertaining to a Divine law.

Dr. Johnson reiterates his real point three paragraphs after your quote here,

"These qualities must
then be dealt with on a rational basis to keep in mind:
that the ultimate aim is to eliminate the destructive
tendencies of delinquents instead of trying to destroy
the delinquents themselves. Society must endeavor to
develop constructive ideals and build character."

All relevant to working towards higher morals, ethics, and preparations if one was decided to commit to learning Johnson's path, by initiation application. Just here on a broader scale and in theory IF society desired so to accomplish, or build back better.

I must add, Dr Johnson gave due credit to Sawan Singh in these chapters. As he was Johnson's Master who taught it to him. The main principles on honest and moral living.

[Osho Robbins]

@Tim Rimmer
"I think this is cool and at the same time it irks me because the whole thing seems so much simpler/easier when put this way (compared with how I remember the standard teaching). And children or not, the idea of the separate soul is so fundamental to the world view of RSSB/SM (and many other religio-cultural perspectives) that I would suggest it is THE main belief/barrier to any mystical/spiritual/average Joe Blog awakening." - TR
This statement is pure gold. I am impressed, Tim. You have hit the nail on the head.
The view and belief that you hold creates your reality.

This is the difference between varan spoken) and dhun (realised).

When you just hear it, but create some justification, then it's not real and will have no effect.

like for example, "yes, there is only one - but i have to meditate to realise it"

it is like getting to the door then walking away again.

everything after the 'but' closes the door again.

There is only ONE - cool. but....
the 'but' creates the distance once again.
now it becomes a distant goal once again, unattainable.

The purpose in going to a master - is that the 'buts' all get dropped.

now it becomes : "there is only the ONE." The full stop is necessary.

That is all realisation is: stop the excuses. just add the full stop

[Osho Robbins]

Tim, when I wrote the above, I had stopped reading at the
"....... Joe Blog awakening."

because what you were saying was coming from a real shift happening inside you in that moment.

so i stopped reading and had to write immediately - no delay.

now i can address the rest of your comment which is equally amazing.

"Having even a wow intellectual moment of understanding of this, is major ‘progress’ in my view, though what is it that progresses within?"

excellent. amazing. That moment is crucial. It is the first opening of the door to realisation.
after this comes the 'but' - the justification that will then make 'realisation' a future goal again.

realisation is not a 'future goal' - not something that happens tomorrow.
there is no 'future' - it cannot happen tomorrow
it either IS at THIS moment - or it isn't.
there can be no postponement while I 'think' about it and 'try' to realise

To answer your question 'what is it that progresses..?'

nothing. There is no 'progress' as such. it is just an instant realisation, an awakening, an eureka moment.
There is no 'thing' that progresses - because then (if we think of what progresses) we are back
in the trap of duality again.

"To me it’s pleasing to see Osho say (and several times past), ‘The individual soul does not exist at all. It only appears to exist..’ and you yourself reply ‘Right, individual souls do not exist’, though continue to make the point that the big He likes to make ‘them’ for his game." -Tim

Brilliant. If these is only ONE, there cannot be an individual soul. impossible.
The "Big HE (God) plays the game of duality" - Well sort of - but also it's just a metaphor

There is and cannot be a Big HE anymore, or a God.
At the moment of realisation - not only do YOU die - but also your master, your guru dies and also
GOD himself dies. They ALL disappear in the same single moment of realisation.

All that remains is nothing - which you cannot label, as all labels disappear too.

Just for the same of speaking - I can then start calling it ONE, NOTHING or GOD etc etc etc.

but that is all lies again - words.

"Taking a view of soul as being aligned with what we ultimately are
(to avoid the soul/self debate) - IMO we could boil things down to say:
What we think we are ‘an isolated self’ is not ultimately real, though we keep believing it is. Spirituality is a process of letting go of this belief.
What we are is what GSD in the clip calls ‘Paramatma’ explained as ‘the first (and only (my words)) soul’.
That’s my current take on it."

That is exactly it. There is no individual soul. That is maya = illusion.
You have no separate existence - so the spiritual path of trying to "save you" is nonsense.
You cannot be saved, as you are not real.
Only the REAL is - it does not need saving.
The unreal can never be saved.
Hence the buddha said "There is no saviour - not even me" because there is nobody to save.

so when a seeker says to babaji "please shower your grace on me...." he just nods his head,
but what he really wants to say is
"what the heck are you talking about? You cannot be saved. There is no grace and it's not needed"

duality comes from the belief that "I exist" and there are others also who exist, including god.

From that perspective, you cannot realise oneness - there is no pathway to oneness from there.

This is called "haumi" or ego and is the only barrier to realisation. drop the 'I exist' and ONENESS already IS.

Best wishes

[Osho Robbins]

"What we think we are ‘an isolated self’ is not ultimately real, though we keep believing it is. Spirituality is a process of letting go of this belief." - Tim Rimmer

The 'ultimately real' means that certainly we APPEAR to exist - there is a body and mind and sense of a "me" here. That is the haumi, which mystics say is the only barrier between you and god.

but this body will die - and so will the mind.

This is the tricky part now. what happens next?

where does "my soul" go? The seeker wants babaji to come at death and take the soul to Sach Khand to reside forever with Sat Purush and Anami and Alakh and Agam. Sounds like fun.

so what is the reality?

simple: There is no "my soul".
The 'soul' does not merge into the 'Supersoul'. the drop does not merge into the ocean.

In oneness, nothing ever happens. no separating, no merging.

Quite simply there is no time: so nothing can happen.
happening needs time.

equally there is no space. So there cannot be any 'place' we go to.

Anyone who goes to Sach Khand is necessarily deluded. All visions are in duality.

MAYA (illusion) is within TIME and SPACE.

YOU exist only within time and space.
Time and Space kills everyone lives in it.
Hence Nanak says "aad sach, jugaad sach, ..." meaning that 'truth' is timeless

The naive seeker wants eternal life. He is greedy. All that is on offer is non-existence.

It is not easy to sell 'non-existence' so a marketing trick is played on the seeker.

The path offers "eternal life, bliss, peace, love .... etc etc" all nonsense.

it is marketing to entice the greedy mind. The greedy mind takes the bait and gets initiated.

Now the real journey begins.

How to break the news of what the truth is.

So babaji uses this: "we want to be in his will (bhana)"

Once the greedy mind is tamed, the truth dawns - there is no reward - no heaven - nothing to get.

This is really bad news for the greedy mind. But drop the greed - and it's heaven.
hence the saying
"jis ko kashu na chaiyi soi shainshah"
"The one who wants nothing - is the king of kings"

Tim Rimmer will get this - others - not very likely - so i have written this for Tim

[Osho Robbins]

The real function and purpose of a "Master" is to lead the disciple to the non-dual perspective.

The disciple has to be present, otherwise there is no master. Someone who is thirsty for the truth, and ready to drop his ideas and listen - that is called a disciple. when such a disciple meets someone who has realised the one, hr listens with sn open mind.There is no argument, no debate. Then the disciple gets it. once the understanding is complete, then experiences will happen of their own accord, nothing has to be 'done'.

Those experiences become further proof, to the individual. The enlightenment is the simple realisation that there cannot be anything except the one. From that, our individuality fades away.
we still function fully in the world - but it's not "me" anymore. The "me" is whay dies - which is the false identity of being a separate self.

[swami umami]

Hey, Karim.

Trust but verify seemed to think Path of the Masters was some kind of perfect book, so I pointed out an imperfection. What's wrong with that?

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"Hey, Karim.

Trust but verify seemed to think Path of the Masters was some kind of perfect book, so I pointed out an imperfection. What's wrong with that?"

Posted by: swami umami | April 10, 2023 at 09:25 AM

You taking subject matter out-of-context will always be something there that's scholarly wrong with it. No?

[swami umami]

Hey, Karim.

We probably don't disagree that much except how to feel. Anyway, I was hoping for reaction from Trust but verify.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Osho,…we have squabbled about none of us, existing out side of the ONE before, so I won’t succumb to my knee jerking again,…but just to let other readers here know, I still don’t accept , or buy in to , not only your Oneness arguments, but also BBJ’s, Ishwar’s, or ANY Advaita Vedanta Oneness preacher’s either. In order to accept your teachings, I would need to deny ALL of my past 81 years of inner experiences, as well as the Teachings of Western Gnostics, Spiritists, that still channel spirits, etc. etc.
https://www.youtube.com/user/SpiritistNetwork/videos
If we research the work of the late Robert Monroe, as well as the work of Past Life Regressionists, such as the late Delores Cannon, or even tne work of Jurgen Ziewe, the Oneness teachings of Neo Advaita Vedanta preachers following Ramana are as boring and dry as Pop Corn flatulence. .
😇🙏🏽😍😀

[Osho Robbins]

@Jim Sutherland.
Tell me more. point me to some interesting videos, i am interested in watching them.

I don't deny the inner experiences. People have them and they are real.

Just as this world exists, in time and space, so do the inner visions and experiences.

I am open to honest exchange of ideas, like you are doing.
And this can be done without any argument.

Astral projection, I completely agree is real. You can leave the body and travel to realms.

I don't see the two viewpoints as mutually exclusive.

I am saying that the ultimate reality is oneness. I don't deny the journey of the soul.
just as here in this world, we can do so much.

I am just saying that in the end - it's all one, no individuality.

You don't have to accept this or agree.

regions, levels, etc exist - we can experience them.

but what is the final destination? where is the resting place?

This can get very abstract - as we are using words.

I am simply saying that ultimately we get to no space / no time.
there - movement cannot happen, and individuality disappears.

[arun marwah]

@Kranvir, You have raised some very tough but important questions from GSD. You will never get answers though because he is very important for the ruling party because of his vote bank.

[Trust but verify]

Karim,
The book is what it is. It is on the list of suggested books to read for seekers and new initiates.
Arun had stated that RS books place great emphasis on testing the master. To which Um had replied:
"@ Arun Marwah
Find a book where it says what you wrote.
Please English versions and the page."
Posted by: um | April 03, 2023 at 06:21 AM

I simply cited the book because Um had asked for a RS book reference regarding testing a master. That is all.

[um]

@ Trust but verufy

>> I simply cited the book because Um had asked for a RS book reference regarding testing a master. That is all.<<

What matters is WHO says what.

The masters state that one cannot know a human being to be an master
and .....the same masters state that prior to asking for initiation of any master, seekers are well advised to make a their own research as to whether this or that master and teachings and the practice that goes with it, suits them.

If people had not heard from others about their existence they simply would not know of their existence in the first place and could only recognize them on meeting them as just another human being..

So yes it is in the book of Dr. Johnson but let me know if you ever find in a book the words written by a master telling the reader how to recognize a master.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Osho,….you asked for more videos to watch. The late Delores Cannon had many, on you tube. She was a past, and in between life Repressionist. What was different about her regressions, was, once she guided her patients to deep trance, she would ask pertinent questions, and the answers would come from various disincarnate spirits. Here is a link to one interesting video, that indicates we spend time in between lives waiting to reincarnate. She has many such videos on youtube, as well as many books in pdf on line that may be accessed free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFhvfI55zEo

She even claims to have accessed Aliens, but I think Aliens are spirits as well.
I agree that in the end, there can only be ONE,… but I don’t believe ANY human has ever reached such a place and returned back to incarnation to fully describe the entire unknown contents of such a place or condition. Gurus, Masters, Saviors, Avatars, etc., are all Posers, as we all are. No one knows the ALL .
In Robert Monroe’s last book, he said he always wanted to “Return and “go home.” He succeeded one time, only to access a continuous boring Loop, of silent formless nothingness. That was when he became really enlightened, by knowing why he originally left the One. It was lonely, and boring to be ONE!
So, being granted the Gifts of human bodies to explore the physical realms, successful Meditations allows our Astral and Casual bodies to explore our Multidimensional Universes for Explorations and Spiritual adventure both during incarnations, as well as between lives while being disincarnate.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Oshe,….here is another Link to Robert Monroe’s Explorer Audio tapes. These people were Astral Explorers who were taken out of hody to explore Astral realms by using Robert Monroe’s Technique of induced Sound Engineering, in isolated chambers, while laying on a Water bed.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?app=desktop&list=PLcMD3sYrU52sP0zHqc4mj8Hhvt_BdbeB2&fbclid=IwAR3HS3p5y9PWY32tdJBHGVNqqkuttQQZF50wMouZTqxEZg5BDbTcNaxCBvU

Jim Sutherland

[Osho Robbins]

Jim,
thank you for the info and videos
i will take a look.

btw, i agree with you.
nobody can "reach the ONE"
and report back.

[Trust but verify]

@Um.
Sar Bachan Poetry, Swami Ji: "only the messenger of shabd is guru, do not serve others who are without shabd. The one who has earned shabd, is the complete guru. Become the dust of success feet. Don't look for other signs....."
"Guru doesn't yearn for your wealth, they have the wealth of naam...."
Guru Nanak in guru Granth: "someone who calls himself a guru but goes out to beg, Don't go near such person....."

[um]

@ Trust but verify

All right ... where does swami Ji says how to discriminate between a human being is with or without shabd?

Nobody can recognize such a man or woman.

How could a small child, an teenager, an adult recognize a musical genius if he doesn't express it in some way?

And if he does how do others recognize the expression as and expression of his musical talent?

How could I recognize an Einstein?
How could I know that a formula is the expression of that genius.
How could I recognize the meaning of such an formula, without being at that level of understanding?

I do know Einstein to be a mathematical genius only based upon hearsay and even those that have passed me that information are beyond my verification

From the beginning to the end it is all based upon ..HEARSAY / BELIEVE

People can base their decisions to follow a certain path base upon their own intuition, gut feeling and belief of others.

You simple cannot know beforehand... nobody can

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"Guru Nanak in guru Granth: "someone who calls himself a guru but goes out to beg, Don't go near such person....." "

Posted by: Trust but verify | April 11, 2023 at 11:04 AM

Great quote on testing a Guru!
I checked the source and without a doubt that's from Guru Nanak Dev.
primo

[Jim Sutherland]

@Osho,…..here is another link to another interesting Mystic I met on the TMI Monroe forum. His Name is Gordon Phinn. He is a Scot, who immigrated to Canada, now living in Toronto. What I found unique about what he shares, is corroboration that souls, or disembodied spirits really exist, because the near earth Astral realms are loaded with many of them who are stuck, because of various reasons , mostly because they don’t know they are died! Gordon, as others I have friended, claim to have Ministries as Retrievers. They Astral project from their physical bodies, and help, or retrieve various stuck souls, and guide them to the higher Astral Light realms. All of these Retrievers report that Spirit Guides meet these souls and take care of them, or accept them from the Soul Retrievers, before they return to their physical bodies. I read every post on Gordon’t blog. He has some talks on You Tube as well.
I share this, to let you and any other interested readers know, that Open minds open to different Spiritual conversations than Sant Mat, One Ness, etc. Teachings, can many times either corraborate their present belief systems, or help discard any new information that resonates.
https://anotherwordofgord.wordpress.com/2023/02/
Jim Sutherland

[AA]

@um
From the beginning to the end it is all based upon ..HEARSAY / BELIEVE

You are right , everything in sant mat is hearsays ...

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"What I found unique about what he shares, is corroboration that souls, or disembodied spirits really exist, because the near earth Astral realms are loaded with many of them who are stuck, because of various reasons , mostly because they don’t know they are died"

Posted by: Jim Sutherland | April 11, 2023 at 05:07 PM

Which corroboration? Astral traveling & Sant Mat, Judaism, or Shinto?

Because in preparation for Sant Mat as taught by Gurus of Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh's stature. I remember I was having a block in my meditation. Just after a 2 year wait period. I couldn't stand the 5 words given to me after initiation. I just couldn't pronounce them, and not even 1 flash of light.

So I went to a direct disciple of Maharaj Ji for advice. He told me my problem was that I was putting too much emphasis on the names as deities. But to just sit relax and say the names.

I meditated for about 21 years or so before I saw something. Not much but it looked like a gentleman with a white board and nicely done turban. It startled me as no lights were on, and I was wearing a blindfold just in case.

So finally, I started to enjoy doing simran. And stop thinking I was cursing at Allah. The name for God I was given by my mother.

P.S.
I still want another look at the beloved

[um]

@ AA

For the seeker everything is and cannot be but "hearsay".
Seekers among themselves might turn these words, this hearsay into "facts" to overcome their doubts and feel more comfortable but if they are honest they know nothing of the path the embarked on.

That said about the seekers .. that doesn't mean that what is said does not exist.

If someone visiting me asks where the sweets are hidden, I might tell them. I know and they have to believe me on my word, the hearsay. If the want me to proof it, they will go without sweets ... hahah

[Jim Sutherland]

@Karim,….honest questions deserve honest answers, with out spin. I meant, corroboration that there are definitely inner Astral realms, and that there, like in the physical, there are many, “confused” individual knotted mind/soul/spirits within the ONE that are NOT the ONE. Also corroborates survival of souls, as well as after and , in between lives survival of individual souls, and that, as here in the physical, souls want, and need, Fraternal support and companionship.
If you met Charan once, inside, as i did, that’s all you need to know , that he survived physical death, and is still able to visit those he initiated. Your fortunate, because very few have ever seen him inside. He only appeared to me once, as well, but it took 26 years of meditation. But in my case, I knew it was him, because he was a foot away from me, in full body form, recognizable by his face, and spoke to me with his same accent, and touched my shoulder. Do I depend on him for any future I have? No, but I. Know that he still exists some where in the Spiritual Realms, as other individuals souls do, and where each of us will also return when we die. But we can take short visits there, during meditation or even during lucid dreaming, before changing bodies in The Wheel of 84.
Jim Sutherland ,

[Solomon]

@ Osho Robbins
>>" Tim Rimmer will get this - others - not very likely - so i have written this for Tim"

Always good to hear from you my friend, what you have written is excellent and that is exactly the kind of "turmoil" I have been going thru since I heard the Master say this to a disciple a few years ago....

in late October 2018, I was at Haynes Park where the Master held a Q&A session.

Some soul pleaded for grace as he claimed he was not “reaching anywhere” in his meditation, to which the Master replied, “there is no place to go, you are already there… do you want me to push you off the cliff! “

I have come to realize that Sant Mat books are filled with concepts and metaphors - as you put it very well - for the greedy mind. It's perfectly well for the seeker and one who is starting out on the path.

After many decades on the path, some begin to think deeply.

Master's answers in Q&A sessions are a wealth of hidden gems and golden hints, only if one is able to understand them, that priceless realization almost like a blink of the eye, even if it's for a moment.

Thank you once again. I am looking forward to reading more of your messages here.

[Jim Sutherland]

I posted the following on another forum of disgruntled book readers and Conference attendees who fail at succeeding to Astral project, or see any thing at all inside, no matter how much they meditate, listen to meditation music CDs, etc. I think it applies here, as well, to Sant Mat Initiates who have meditated for many years, and given up, because failing to experience any thing, inside. The problem very well might be Biological blockages , and not Spiritual all. Of course, I meditate always in expectation to experience new adventures, inside, but I also mediate as my Tithe to the Divine begging for The Windows of Heaven to be opened for me.
I have come to the conclusion that not EVERY BODY is “naturally” capable of inducing Astral Projections , promised by all of the Astral Projection Authors or Teachers. I believe that those reporting their success having OBEs or APs have had, some time during their past, various traumas in their lives, which have weakened, the Silver Cord, or Etheric bodies that connect their Astral bodies to their physical bodies. These traumas might include, NDEs, sever sicknesses , fevers, Chemo and or Radiation treatments , or residual stored doses of Pain killers , such as Oxy, or even Psychedelics used during earlier years, no matter how long ago. The other past traumas might include Post dramatic stress from many past experiences, such as Military combat, or even Boot Camp training! Or even bullying memories from youth. I have had many such events that have no doubt weakened my Silver Cord, or Etheric body. I was pushed off a Pier at 11 years old and couldn’t swim. I almost drowned, and thought I was a goner, but learned to Dog Paddle just before drowning. I had several car accidents, that put me close to NDEs, with out memories of where I went during the extreme slow motion of time during those events. Also hospital bouts of ruptured apprentices, double pneumonia, Jaundice of the liver, tonsel infection, Gall bladder surgery, etc. etc. I was almost electrocuted in my mid 20s, while standing on a flooded concrete floor holding on to, or glued, to a steel tank full of water , that had a non grounded 440 Volt 3 Phase electric heater installed wrong in the tank. 3 phase current is not Alternating, so I couldn’t let go of the tank. I was told my hair was standing straight up on my head , as I was an open circuit for 440 Volts flowing through my body! My entire life review passed through me as I was preparing to die, but one last image of my Wife and Kids provoked one last tug to get loose. I landed flat on my back in 2 inches of water, on the floor, shook up, but still alive. Can’t remember APing during that event, but I never felt completely “normal” again, and my lucid dream life took a drastic change. There were many , more , such events, but the above should at least cause successful AP ers to examine their past Traumatic events in their own lives to consider if any of such events might be why they find it easy to AP, while imagining that ANY BODY can do it,….which might not be true.
Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

According to Dr. Vijai Kumar and Dr. V. Natarajan, all of the Radhasoami realms are inside the human skull, that’s why Gurinder Singh says Satsangis do not go any where at death. Ishwar Puri said he “found out” he never left Sach Khand, which is actually Sat Lock, so he didn’t need to return to a place he had never left. Only using the RSSB or other Radhasomi Meditation Techiques keeps the knotted mind/soul/spirit in the brain, inside the human skull. That’s why Radhasoami Masters say Initiates will not have to reincarnate any more than 3 more lives. But of course, most never really know how many past lives ago they werecinitiated, or even if they were, which includes me. So ,at my present age of 81, its a night mare thinking that I could have 3 more lives in human bodies, needing to be found by another Master reincarnated during each time as my next reincarnation. Then, each one will say all I need is to be initiated again, and look forward to NO MORE THAN ANOTHER 3 LIVES BEFORE REACHING SACH KHAND,……WHERE I NEVER LEFT!!!

IF we are to believe the Dr. Quoted above, who show their Drawing of the brain where the Radhasoami realms are located, it appears True Blue Satsangis will spend Eternity returning here to do Seva for the Masters! That Drawing can be seen on the Dalal Bagh Web site on the 2022 conference they had.

Studying the Chart, ALL 8 Radhasoami Spiritual realms are located inside the brain, which is why very few initiated Satsangis Astral Project by escaping the skull or body, which is why the After Life Astral realms described by Astral,projectors and those having out of body experiences are rejected as nothing but imaginations or mind sanskaras. Kirpal Singh always said we “have to ride above body consciousness” in order to travel the Spiritual path. But he never meant rising above the skull,…only the body.

The inner brian journy inside the skull starts at the,Tishra Tel, where the Seat of Spirit lives. The journey from there goes to the Sphere of Shiva, followed by Sphere of Brahma, followed by Sphere of Vishnu, ….followed by Sahasdal Kamal, to Trikuti, then Sunna, followed by Mahasunna, to Bhanwargupa, and finally arriving to Sat Lok, or Sach Khand, which is at the top,of the brain inside the skull. The Nij Dham Radhasoami realm is at the lower back of the skull, rising to Agam Lok, followed by Anami Lok which is right next and close to Sat Lok, or Sach Khand,….according to the chart.

I remember Ishwar Puri saying the entire,Spiritual Path is contained in the 4 inch high area of the head!

But yet, he always invited seekers to become initiated , and said they could learn to fly,…in the Astral realms!,

So, either the Astral Realms are inside the head, or located out side the body. I have soared out side the body in the Astral reams, even projecting to Outer Space where I looked back and saw planet earth, as a sphere the size of a base ball, I was so far away from it, and was headed for another planet, far head of me. I could see two of them, but never reached either before being snapped back to my physical body .

Ishwar admitted that he had tried every meditation technique he had ever heard of. I believe his Astral projections, when he had them, were NOT induced by using the Sant Mat technique.

As for me, I don’t look forward to 3 more lives here, doing seva for 3 more masters! I’ve already experienced enough Astral explorations to know, …there are much nicer and easier to manage places to be, than stuck in the Wheel of 84, waiting for the promise to end , after 3 more lives,….which really never ends!

Caveat Emptor

Jim Sutherland

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"If you met Charan once, inside, as i did, that’s all you need to know , that he survived physical death, and is still able to visit those he initiated. Your fortunate, because very few have ever seen him inside. He only appeared to me once, as well, but it took 26 years of meditation"

Posted by: Jim Sutherland | April 12, 2023 at 03:08 AM

Jim,

I learned about Charan Singh from books. He died in 1990 and I found J.P. Johnson's book around 1991. But I did start practicing eating more veggies by 1996.

I didn't get serious until two years later. So the guru I believe saw was Baba Gurinder Singh.

And that advice I got, that's from Baba Ji too :)

I guess my whole point was that Charan Singh was a great guru, and in my honest opinion the fortune is yours having his authorization (initiation approval). So you need not look any further concerning meditations.

[AA]

@Karim W. Rahmaan
I guess my whole point was that Charan Singh was a great guru,

Dear Karim , will you plz elaborate the greatness of Charan singh..

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"If there is a god, then he should be concerned with the devotion of the devotee and not with the way of worshiping him.

Big question , why god needs mediator ? Like GSD"

Posted by: AA | April 07, 2023 at 12:04 AM

"Dear Karim , will you plz elaborate the greatness of Charan singh.."

Posted by: AA | April 13, 2023 at 06:22 AM

If you have an hour, the Dera has an old documentary with a bit about your questions. Back when the 1st guru lived by the ravines, in only a hut made of clay & still sharing what was left of his food..
..known today as their free langar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03XmdVqqEbY

[Kranvir]

Questions to ask the fake ass baba of beas part 4

1. When was the point you became enlightened - share your experiences to inspire us all - ps my guess is you have none

2. Would you follow a stranger who doesnt know you and trust them with everything you have ? - so why do people accept you into their mind body and soul as a so called guru without any questions or research ?

3. You went from a sales person to a billionaire baba who is worshipped as a god , so what's your secret ? Or is it all demonic magic, trickery , abuse of your position for max personal gain?

4. If we are all god, and god is equal , why are you so special ? and why do you allow the rssb circus to continue given you have the power to dissolve rssb ?

5. Do you really think we are that stupid to think you get sick because you are carrying our karma ?

6. So you have had horrendous illnesses , lightening strikes on your property in Haynes, UK, Is this down to your own personal karma ? or Is the true god you have mocked and been blasphemous against, angry at how you are taking advantage of his children?

7. Why are you desperately expanding rssb ? Is kaal on the hunt to capture as much souls as he can before this time is over ?

8. Why are you always hiding ?

... etc

[Jim Sutherland]

@Karim,…thanks for the Link. I watched it all, and reminisced the good old days . Notice very carefully in the Video of Charan teaching that dying while living, requires vacating the body, to arrive at the 3rd eye , behind the 2 physical eyes. He verified that the Spiritual Journey BEGINS at the 3rd eye. Now revisit my post on where I said ALL of the 8 Spiritual realms of the Radhasoami Path are inside the brain, protected by the skull, which I think Radhasoami Masters consider as their Out of Body journeys. None 0f those Realms are Astral Realms, where people, places, things, buildings, animals, relatives and friends who have passed 0ver, are in ANY of those 8 Radhasoami levels inside the skull. That’s why, we are told by the Masters at initiation, to TEST the spirits that appear inside by repeating the Simran,…i.e. 5 Names. If those images are not Masters, they will disappear. Those unwanted images appear on the LEFT SIDE! I belive these are Astral seepages that slip in, when the Simran is dormant, or during Bahjun. When Charan appeared to me, he appeared on the RIGHT side, where no Simran does not need to be used to test the Spirits.
But again, I now believe that initiation by Radhasoami Masters, all of them, regardless 0f lineage, KEEPS Initiates inside, or in Pind, not allowing liberation until real physical death.
Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

Also, Charan taught that our main duty after initiation is to ATTEND TO MEDITATION.
All the rest is voluntary. He said turning our backs on meditation, or quitting attending to it, is BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
JIM