A RSSB initiate expresses some concerns

Below is a message I got yesterday from someone who is a member of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), a religious organization with headquarters in India that's led by a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, which this person refers to as Baba ji. Darshan refers to being in the presence of the guru.

(I belonged to RSSB for thirty-five years, before I broke away from the group.)

The message describes concerns this person has about RSSB and the guru. They end with a request that I share my thoughts about what they said, which I'll do after the message. They also say that they'd like to hear from other like-minded people.

So leave a comment on this post if you want to share some thoughts with this person. Here's what they had to say, followed by my observations.

I have read your blogs about RSSB and I can relate myself to parts of it. I'm an initiate and have been attending satsangs. My concerns are:

 

-- Why two and a half hours of  meditation a day? It is not practical. If you are in a job and you do it continuously, day in and day out. you are not getting enough sleep and it eventually catches up on you. 

 

-- Daiichi vs. Singh brothers. Article comes on RSSB official website and goes off quickly. Was it a decision taken in panic?

 

-- Daiichi vs. Singh brothers. YouTube link to "Fortis tycoon steps down to walk down on the road of spiritualism". It was news that ran on India's mainstream media 7 years ago. Was it part of the financial deal?

 

--  Frequent visits by India's high profile politicians including the prime minister. I am trying to establish the motive. We all have our secrets.

 

-- What is the succession process of masters? Is it at the death of a master or earlier? Looking at the previous line of masters. Nepotism maybe?

 

-- Baba ji is all about simple living. He has had the same pair of trainers for a few years. Well not, when it comes to expensive cars, a charter plane and the helicopter. I am not aware of the other centres, but I know of 2 which have fully furnished houses exclusively for baba ji for his visits. You can imagine the bill if all centres around the world have this arrangement.

 

-- I can't comment on the charitable expenditure of RSSB. But there are a rising number of new centers lately both in India and overseas. Of course, it is creating more sewa opportunities?

 

-- Baba ji's satsang sessions are more like counseling sessions. Replies are standard, not going into details. Q & A sessions, I wonder why no one has raised the question of personal wealth yet. (Quite honestly, I'd be intimidated asking that myself.)

 

When I got initiated, I used to feel special and thought I am set for life. Just do my bit everyday and I will come out stronger and better. Whenever I had a chance to do darshan, I was thinking he could see my soul and was able to hear my prayers.

 

But that's all changed now. I feel that I am not special but just an ordinary, back to square one with no direction.

 

Thanks for listening and your thoughts please. I would like to hear from like minded people as well.

 

I agree with you about the vow to do 2 1/2 hours of meditation a day. Few RSSB initiates do this much meditation. It's a vow that is broken by almost everybody, likely including the guru himself. The RSSB guru who initiated me in 1971, Charan Singh, said that ten minutes of concentrated meditation is better than hours of distracted meditation. So I wouldn't worry about the quantity of meditation, just the quality.

 

Yes, the RSSB website did have links to articles about the guru and the Singh brothers' financial problems. The links were deleted in 2019. I wrote a blog post about this: RSSB deletes financial fraud stories from website. 

 

In 2018 I wrote a post, Gurinder Singh's billionaire nephew rumored to succeed him as RSSB guru. But in 2019 I wrote a post, Shivinder Singh lied about becoming a full-time RSSB sevadar [volunteer]. It does seem that Shivinder did this to get out of contempt proceedings.

 

I don't know much about politics in the Punjab. I suspect politicians like to visit Gurinder Singh because this helps them get votes from RSSB initiates, along with the guru's political support.

 

It is indeed strange that out of the billions of people in the world, the successor to a RSSB guru sometimes is a relative of the previous guru. Like you said, this looks like nepotism. 

 

Gurinder Singh does have a taste for the good life. Well, more than a taste. A full-blown diet. 

 

Back in Charan Singh's time as RSSB guru, he expressed no interest in building overseas centers, saying that meditation should be our main concern. Gurinder Singh changed that as you said, building expensive centers all over the world.

 

If Gurinder Singh is acting as a counselor, sometimes he does a poor job of offering advice. I wrote about one example of this in Why a guru shouldn't give mental health advice. There are other examples.

 

I think it's great that you're asking such good questions. I also really liked your statement that now you feel ordinary, not special. That's a sign of genuine spiritual progress. I say that as someone who also no longer feels religiously special -- though  I admit that I'm pleased and proud about my non-specialness, which shows that I have a ways to go before I feel truly ordinary. 

 

Comments

[In plain sight]

GSD gave his personal home to Shivinder and Shivinder’s family to live in and GSD moved into Great Master’s home. This happened when Shivinder was on his religious sabbatical. GSD never moved back into the home. I don’t know if Shivinder’s family continued to live there for a while or not, but they definitely don’t live there anymore.

To give a satsangi the “Master’s House” is like an obvious sign that he’s not just a regular satsangi… 😂 I don’t even know what to compare it to. Obviously GSD was grooming Shiv to be the next guru and Malvinder’s concerns were understandable.

[Arun Marwah]

Financial integrity of A person, rather any person is most important quality in my opinion! Financial Honesty is above all!

[Spence Tepper]

More important than any public personality is our own life and mental health and the treasures we find within. We may not be special, but we seek something special all the time. We love our special home, our special car, our special garden view, our special favorite restaurant, our special hobby. It's OK to seek something special, and to want that. I say it is found within.

Alan Watts is a perfect western example. Here was a charismatic speaker whose philosophy was appealing to the western mind. He was an atheist, speaking out against religious belief, yet his words were spiritual in the sense that they elevated what it really is to be human. But his personal life of celebrity mixed with addiction was less than stellar.

What do we take away from Alan Watts? The only thing that is transferrable, his philosophy, his beautiful writings, his enthusiasm for the truth, his passion to make that accessible, and the birthright of anyone.

Once you find yourself loving a public personality, finding resonance with their philosophy, that is yours, and yours entirely. That is your wealth. Nothing else matters but the stellar truth you find in their words.

Don't expect them to live up to your ideal. Strive to live up to the ideal yourself. It's yours now, not theirs.

And all the encouragement of peers and family and even your own desire to be special, to find that love in some public personality you find unsavory cannot last. If it isn't there for you, then the issue becomes, can you find it in anyone or anything? Because that would be your next step.

So, while it is useful to understand the human nature of public personalities, their limitations, the conclusion is still the same: perfection is found within, in the ideal, in the objective, in what you find yourself passionate about. Just be sure that internal goal resonates within you, that you find truth in it, just as a artist finds truth in their abstract work. It may make no sense to anyone else. It is that artist's truth.

Find your truth, make your truth, uncover your truth, and be scrupulous about it when facts prove that your truth needs refinement. That should never stop your journey, but encourage it, encourage further effort in your pursuits. Just journey eyes open, even opener than before. Open to your internal state as much as to the external world.

[SantMat64]

"It is indeed strange that out of the billions of people in the world, the successor to a RSSB guru sometimes is a relative of the previous guru. Like you said, this looks like nepotism."

Not "sometimes," but only once. Gurinder Singh was a family relation to Charan Singh.

"Back in Charan Singh's time as RSSB guru, he expressed no interest in building overseas centers, saying that meditation should be our main concern. Gurinder Singh changed that as you said, building expensive centers all over the world."

Charan Singh is responsible for the drive to greatly expand the RSSB dera, including satellite deras all across India.

"Baba ji's satsang sessions are more like counseling sessions. Replies are standard, not going into details. Q & A sessions, I wonder why no one has raised the question of personal wealth yet. (Quite honestly, I'd be intimidated asking that myself.)"

I"ve commented on this before, but to be fair, Charan Singh also regularly answered questions from satsangis in much the same way. It seems that the questions these days are about life issues, and Gurinder is perhaps addressing them on more practical terms than did Charan. How many times did we hear Charan answer a question with "do your meditation"? Now we have a guru who isn't giving as many c oookie cutter responses, and that's no good either. Oh well. But both Charan and Gurinder answered questions in the context of Sant mat -- we handle our worldly responsibilities while also maintaining a spiritual outlook. As for trained counsellors offering superior advice, wow, space does not permit a full rebuttal to that nugget.

"The RSSB guru who initiated me in 1971, Charan Singh, said that ten minutes of concentrated meditation is better than hours of distracted meditation. So I wouldn't worry about the quantity of meditation, just the quality."

Charan Singh never said that quality matters more than quantity. Like it or not, he said 10,000 times that 2.5 hours was necessary. I agree that we should not beat ourselves up by not meditating that long per day (and also keep in mind that Charan admitted that in his youth he didn't sit for 2.5, and Sawan had to more or less bribe him to do so), but let's not misstate what RSSB actually teaches.

The guru's wealth, from whence does it come? Fair question. To what extent does the guru embrace luxury? Very fair question.

I have no real info on where Gurinder's wealth comes from, but hey (yes, you guessed it) I likewise have no clue as to how Charan Singh quit working in his 30 yet somehow he and his family lived in similarly materially opulent circumstances for the next 40 years.

As to a guru's alleged preference for material perks, that's another matter. We know that Charan and Gurinder were rich. That can't be disputed. They both obviously don't fit the idea of Ramana Maharishi, the guru who many considered authentic largely due to his complete antipathy toward material pleasures. Many gurus talk about having transcended the senses, but how many demonstrated it as Ramana did? Read about it if you haven't already.

But it seems to me that the real question is not whether a guru is materially well off, but whether he exploits that material wealth for selfish ends. To that specific question, and despite everything I've so far written critiquing Charan and Gurinder, I know of no evidence suggesting that they're kicking back, living the life of Reilly, taking hedonistic vacas to resorts, or doing what we've seen truly disreputable gurus do (read about Yogi Bhajan as an example). The evidence I've seen shows me that whatever faults we may find or suspect in the RSSB gurus, they all are working constantly for the sangat. Charan certainly did, and from reports I've just heard from a long time satsangi who just visited the Dera, Gurinder is working just as hard.

To the deeper question of the worth of this path, I think it's quite legit and one that each person struggles with. I'd only say that RSSB is no different from most religions. We may be attracted to it for what it can give us. Later we find that religion is always a reciprocal affair.

[Appreciative Reader]

"-- Why two and a half hours of meditation a day? It is not practical. If you are in a job and you do it continuously, day in and day out. you are not getting enough sleep and it eventually catches up on you. "

..........I'm with you all the way. Your questions are perfectly valid, and without a doubt there's shady goings-on at RSSB, particularly given the meteoric rise in the net worth of GSD and his shady family over the last few decades. Only a complete fool would be taken in by this transparent charlatanry.

With that said, I'm going to pick a couple nits in the portion I've quoted above:

First, a generalization. You can object to the two-and-a-half hours' meditation a day as pointless, or as harmful (if you think that is the case), or whatever else; but to discount it merely because it is "not practical" is probably misplaced. Some people do work out, for instance, for that much time, or even more, every day. If there's any worth in the meditation itself, and if you have the inclination to seek that worth, then two hours, three hours, or more, of meditation shouldn't be something to complain about. Complain about its worthlessness, by all means; but to merely complain about it spanning two hours seems, like I said, a tad misplaced.

And two, a clarification specific to your issue. When you meditate a lot, your requirement of sleep goes down. I say this from personal experience: I sometimes go in for rather hardcore bouts of meditation, either in retreats or else by myself. During those times, I've found that I get by perfectly well with hardly three or four hours of sleep. What I'm getting at is, if you spend some two or three hours in concentrated meditation, to the point of absorption, well then I'd say that your requirement for sleep should come down by a like amount, approximately.

But take the above with a pinch of salt, what I said about the sleep thing, because all this is is anecdotal. I'm not aware of any broad study that validates such a conclusion. And it is possible that what I've found to work personally, may not apply to you. Still, I thought I'd share this insight with you, for what that is worth.

And, in any case, and like I said, I'm with you, as far as the rest of it.

[Brian Hines]

SantMat64, regarding RSSB gurus being related, I also was thinking of the fact that Sawan Singh was the paternal grandfather of Charan Singh. So three RSSB gurus were related to each other -- Sawan Singh, Charan Singh, and Gurinder Singh. See:

https://dbpedia.org/page/Charan_Singh_(Sant)

[SantMat64]

It's worth asking, "what did I sign up for"?

Whether you agree with it or not, there's a fundamental theological concept behind the RSSB path. That is, we are separated from God but there's a path to union.

In my experience, many RSSB initiates, even those with decades of tenure, either don't know of or don't understand that fundamental concept. They seem to think RSSB is a cool trip, the guru is daddy, or they're part of a countercultural spiritual Woodstock and so forth. But no, this is a religion, ie, a joining to God from out of the chaos of self. That being so, the principle question is really whether the initiate agrees with the actual purpose of the RSSB path, and whether he agrees that its process of meditation and right living make sense. If one doesn't agree with the actual stated purpose of RSSB and its practicum, then what is one trying to accomplish? Why is one even a satsangi in the first place?

Being a follower of Sant mat is not really about finding your own truth, or taking the vows as a suggestion by taking quotes out of context and meditating for 5 minutes with quality. Sant mat teaches certain things, and asks certain, very definite things from initiate. That's just how it is. Yes, we can all do what we what, but for what purpose? Yes, we can all meditate just 5 minutes a day, but if we accept the purpose of Sant mat as it's define in all the books, what the F are we doing? "Well, I don't know if I agree with the whole purpose of Sant mat." OK, great. But then why is anyone a satsangi if you they don't agree with the very purpose of this path? What is one trying to achieve?

I get it that people here offer compassionate suggestions. Oh, you really don't have to meditate that long, oh you can just find your own truth, whatever that means. Uh yeah, you can. But again, to what end? I would just tell people to either really try the path as it's laid down, and if it doesn't work for them, or they conclude that there's a better way to achieve the purpose of Sant mat, or that atheism is truth, then maybe leave. But I have no idea what ignoring or twisting the actual teachings of Sant mat is supposed to be a solution to anyone who doesn't really believe in the path.

As for money, everyone knew that Sawan was rich, and Charan was rich. Yet we all joined anyway. Now it's "oh the horror, Gurinder is rich." Sometimes...well, more than some times, many times, charges of wanton exploitation by gurus is legit. But sometimes the charges are a bit ridiculous and a little bit dishonest, especially from Charan initiates who joined RSSB when Charan was guru but are shocked, shocked, that Gurinder is all but a carbon copy of his predecessor.

Something is very off about that, but try to get any of them to believe it.

But back to finding your own truth. In the context of finding out whether the path is true, then yes, that is a possibility. But it can only be done by practice. The conclusions will of course by yours, and time may lead you to find that the fruits of the path are different that what you first assumed they were when you joined.

[SantMat64]

"SantMat64, regarding RSSB gurus being related, I also was thinking of the fact that Sawan Singh was the paternal grandfather of Charan Singh. So three RSSB gurus were related to each other.

Thank you. Yes, I knew that, but though it's possible that Jagat Singh (not a Dhillon family member) appointed Charan purely because Sawan Singh had told him to. But given we have no evidence of such a directive from Sawan, or Jagat, or Charan, I see that as conjecture. If RSSB was meant to be a family business as it were, it seems a bit strange to me that non-family member Jagat would be appointed guru. The only clear instance of nepotism in RSSB is the succession of Gurinder from Charan.

Kirpal Singh in his book Pita Poot (available online I believe) famously made all kinds of allegations of family corruption at the Dera that foiled appointment of the true guru -- Kirpal! These allegations are kind of intriguing, and for all I know there may be actual weight to some of them, but so far no evidence has emerged to corroborate any of Kirpal's nebulous charges.

That said, I think you and others are correct to keep looking for corruption at Dera. I don't know of any as yet, but there is an awful, awful lot of money and where it all comes from and where it goes shouldn't be necessarily taken for granted as the wholly above board work of God.

On the other hand, maybe the Indian people are financial geniuses and deserves the benefit of the doubt, given that they're the highest earners of all U.S. immigrants/ethnic groups.

[No Kool-Aid]

Let us remember that the Radha Soami line of gurus started with Swami Ji. He lived in Agra. The ashram in Agra: https://www.dayalbagh.org.in/ Gurus are not appointed - they are elected. Take a look at the website. Personally, I balk at obeisance sessions. They have bhent with a maximum and minimum donation. Appears to be accountable and far more acceptable than the theme park at Beas aka as rssb.org.

[Wayne]

I think a lot of people are asking themselves “Is Sant Mat right for me?”

No, it isn’t. It isn’t right for anyone.

The teachings don’t make any sense and the rides are all broken.

[No Kool-Aid]

In my earlier post I should have added that I have been in contact with Dayalbagh. People who want to follow the Sant Mat teachings, but are disillusioned with GSD's circus at Beas, are welcome to be a part of the Dayalbagh group. There is an email contact on the website. I got a reply the next day, and it was signed by the correspondent. Compare that to rssb.org. If you want to communicate with GSD, with questions or concerns, you have to use snail-mail. Usually you get a reply in about six weeks. The letter is signed "Sevadar in charge of correspondence" - not even a name. Here's the kicker: If you want to donate to "Online Seva" on the rssb.org website, it is an instant process - no obstacles! SHOW ME THE MONEY!!

[AA]

@santmat64
Sawan singh and Jagat singh were relative's , both of them belongs to same caste..
Sawan singh grandson married to jagat singh niece ( jagat singh elder brother's bhagat singh Daughter ) .
Sawan Singh had three son
Banchit singh
Basant singh
Harbans singh ( father of guru charan singh)

[AA]

Little correction

Grand daughter of sawan singh married to jagat singh nephew

[AA]

Baba Sawan Singh Grand Daughter Balwant kaur Married to Jagat singh nephew Gurdyal Singh ..

[Spence Tepper]

Hi SantMat64
You wrote:
"But back to finding your own truth. In the context of finding out whether the path is true, then yes, that is a possibility. But it can only be done by practice. The conclusions will of course by yours, and time may lead you to find that the fruits of the path are different that what you first assumed they were when you joined."

Can you find out if any system of belief and prayer is "true"? Only for you. It is a subjective evaluation so long as you must make that judgement. All evaluations are like that. Your truth, your subjective truth, is the only truth you will ever know. But it can be refined, replaced with another truth, as your objectivity improves, and your experience expands. The open minded journey is the way.

[SantMat64]

Does Gurinder give poor advice? It's not an easy question to answer.

Was this poor advice?

"Gurinder said "Nothing happens to the soul. It's just the mind. Depression is a first world problem. You don't see poor people getting depressed because they're too busy working. Stop feeling sorry for yourself." That's what he said. Just like that."

I'm have no degrees in counseling, but I've been working with people dealing with mental problems for over the last 30 years. I know that depression is a very complex topic, as it has complex causes and manifestations. I won't go into that here. But to the point, the person to whom Gurinder addressed his advice says she found relief by just leaving Sant mat. No mention of psychiatric help.

But back to my own observations of many people with severe mental problems. Self pity and self centeredness is often the core reason for psychological distress, and service to others is a core solution. When you tell someone who's in the pits of mental distress this, they're usually shocked and not a little insulted. But when they take up a belief in God and accept that many of their problems are tied to this own choices and selfish attitudes, they invariably find relief. That's what I've seen, over and over again.

But pinpointing the problem to selfishness is a hard pill to swallow. The selfish often can't accept being told their selfish -- because they're selfish! They're in a closed loop of self, of their own making and perpetuation.

I know one such person, who, right now, is living in their car, and recently spent 5 days in jail for violence. This not a crazy bag lady on drugs, but someone who is intelligent and used to work for the government. In last 20 years they've gone I've seen them go from one debacle to another. This person always has a story of being wronged, of self pity, and the many attempts I've made to help them they reject with a know it all attitude. I see a glaringly obvious connection between their attitude and where they are. But if I told them that, they're just be angry.

I know another person who has a deep background in mental health counseling. Unlike my other friend, she is professionally successful and in all respects quite responsible. And yet this person seems to be very bothered by almost everything. Tasks like driving her car and shopping for food are to her big problems that she tells me she dreads doing. To me, this too is a manifestation of selfishness. How so? The habit of taking everything with extreme seriousness as a personal problem and threat to their security. And again, if I put it to this person that her problems are related to her self centeredness, she'd likely be bewildered. But I see how she looks at life, at memories, at events. She stares at them the way children stare at the screen of a horror movie.

No one can stare at their past and be happy. Staring at our past is, in a word, selfishness. Staring at perceived problems doesn't resolve them, it just mires us in them. It's an addiction to fear.

If it seems like I'm lecturing from on high, believe me, all of the above is also from my personal experience. I've had the same problem attitude, the black depression, the boneheaded financial mistakes, the resentment, the self pity. But my experience and that of countless others who shared my principal problem led to a firm conviction that selfishness is indeed the core reason for disfunction.

And so, I don't find Gurinder's advice to be necessarily bad advice. The practical strategy of mental distress is to admit fault where fault lies and move on -- literally move on to service to others, to new relations, and to God. Without a relationship with a God that transcends this world and provides personal help and direction, the selfish are at a distinct disadvantage.

[SantMat64]

By the way, group members:

I rarely read your responses to my posts, and I don't have any interest in answering your questions or debating with you. Thanks for understanding.

[Spence Tepper]

A man came up to Gurinder in front of thousands and with tears in his eyes, voice shaking with fear and shame cried out , "I have committed a terrible sin! I'm afraid there is nothing I can do about it! Please Baba Ji, I'm afraid! I need to tell you...

.

Baba Ji interrupted him, "No. No you don't understand. It's not a matter of forgiveness. No loving parent wants to see their beloved child humiliated in public, head down between their knees in shame. No. We are all here to learn. Did you learn your lesson?"

"Yes, Baba Ji..." The man replied.

"Then it never happened."

Baba Ji has said many things, and each of us is sensitive to different kinds of statements.

But if anyone, in all the books and history of works, philosophic, political, poetic and psychological, has ever spoken more compassionate words with the full authority of his position than these four words, I've not heard nor read it.

[um]

@ Spence

What you relate I have heard several times said by his uncle.
If people would approach him, certainly in public, asking him to forgive them, the always got the same answer .. "Don't do it aging"

In that moment they are asked, a "rope" is thrown at them. If they pick it up they have to pull and they are attached to that person.

People do throw ropes at them in many ways .... hahahaha ..... It has always been amusing for me, to hear how they manage to prevent it that they have to pick up the rope.

And yes ... some did even go that far that they wanted to force them to take the rope in their hands ... hahahahaa ... they are well trained, and do understand the human mind an qualified physiotherapist could not do better

There are no ways one can "grab" them ...what I guru, master etc is or is not I have never known as i was not at that level but one thing I quickly understood being in their presence ... they are indeed FREE human beings, there is no way you can manipulate them emotionally or intellectually ... and ... they do DEFEND that freedom at all cost.

It is realy funny to hear them do it ... I would not attache the word compassion to what they do as that word speaks of an relation, an attachment and bond and that is not there ....in their presence one might become free too that is all, stand on ones own legs take responsibility for one's own deeds instead of outsourcing the responsibility on others forcing on them the role of an savior.=> "I" have created an mess and now the other must "clean it for me" ... that is not how it works ... hahaha

Looking upon them as human beings is great fun, they have mastered themselves.as humans. ... hahaha and the thousands that do their best to push tem into a role they are not and what they will not allow anybody to do.

[angels of mercy]

RSSB has taken many strange turns but I think the guru is beginning to see the light.

[um]

@ Angels

What "light"is he "beginning"to see ????

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"I would not attache the word compassion to what they do as that word speaks of an relation, an attachment and bond and that is not there ."

Read it again...
"No loving parent...."

[um]

@ Spence

I am neither deaf, nor blind nor retarded and there is nothing wrong with understanding of the viewpoints of others..... but ..... that said I feel free to have my own, without having to agree or disagree with theirs.

I do understand that what I wrote is not the "common" sense of seekers, disciples and even antagonist of RSSB; I have been around for to many years ... and ... am familiar wih the organisations affairs from close by and within.

As said roses can be seen through the lasses of many, the artis, the botanist and the lover. and love can take many faces at the same time.

What greater gift is possible for a father than to show his offspring to be free human beings, standing on their own eggs instead of being the "prisoners"of their fathers welfare?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"What greater gift is possible for a father than to show his offspring to be free human beings, standing on their own eggs instead of being the "prisoners"of their fathers welfare?"

This reminds me of the question and answer I had with Baba Ji in front of a few thousand in Kitchener Ontario.

I told him that every single day situations come up that I can't handle. I asked him if my efforts to turn to Master throughout the day and to give all this to Him, be in Him at all times, was a good thing or a sign of growing dependency.

His answer, again, will only speak to some, and not to others.

He said, "The intellect is very limited. When the whole universe depends upon the Lord every moment for its existence, where is this talk of growing dependency? This is a very Western concept that doesn't bear out."

And then he gave me the smallest grin, and turned to the next questioner.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um:
you wrote:
"What greater gift is possible for a father than to show his offspring to be free human beings, standing on their own eggs instead of being the "prisoners"of their fathers welfare?"

Free of the influence of others or free of the influence of God? Not sure what "freedom" you are referring to.

[um]

@ Spence

Freedom has nothing to do with either of them ..freedom of ... is no freedom

[Dungeness]

@ um [ ...in their presence one might become free too that is all, stand on ones own legs take responsibility for one's own deeds instead of outsourcing the responsibility on others forcing on them the role of an savior.=> "I" have created an mess and now the other must "clean it for me" ... that is not how it works ]

I agree. Baba Ji has several times recently offered a "non-rope" for those
asking for yet another "clean-up on aisle 4" when he says "I will not lead
you from one delusion to the next." IMO, the mystic rejects a "savior role"
and a student's dependency on the master for multiple clean-up's: that's
a task for the meditation mantra or mindfulness practice already given.

Of course, some cries for help come only after considerable DIY effort
has been made and ring sincere. That's when I suspect the "it never
happened" (GSD's remark mentioned up-thread) will happen. Love
can break any of its rules.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um:

You wrote
"Freedom has nothing to do with either of them ..freedom of ... is no freedom"

Interesting.

Ok, so Sant Mat, or any system of belief that someone adopts, even Atheism, even Christianity, is largely a system of concepts. When you adopt that, you are tied to it. You aren't free from that. Just as you aren't free from the laws of reality.

What you choose to bind yourself to, even the illusion that one is an island entirely independent of reality, also frees you from some things and frees you to do other things, but inevitably ties you to some things also.

However, being tied to a rope that pulls you up from other nasty things, from enslavement, restraint, imprisonment, subjugation, is actually a source of freedom, but not necessarily from itself. Your reliance on that system, that practice, becomes the vehicle of your freedom from other things that you don't want.

And the system, by your reliance upon it, if it is a good system, also brings you much closer to some of the things you do want. Freedom to pursue happiness in a form you desire.

The absence of attachment is not actually freedom. It is just lack of perceived attachment. People who are depressed and have given up in frustration often say "I don't want nor need anything." It's just a claim. It isn't freedom, but resignation.

The absence of visible movement is not necessarily static. It is just passive. Maybe unconscious.

Again, movement. Natural movement, following our true inner nature that we discover for ourselves seems to me to be a good thing. The ultimate freedom is the power to choose for yourself. But lacking that power, that isn't actual freedom. It may be resignation to the prison cell.

Movement from darkness and movement towards light is good, IMHO. Very simple. Finding truth, growing knowledge, learning.

"Those who aren't busy being born are busy dying."
Bob Dylan

All observation indicates everything is moving, despite any illusion to the contrary. So, rather than pretend the laws of reality don't impact someone, better for them to be pro-active and try to control where they are going. To do that requires raising conscious awareness of where we are and what we are. You can go much faster seeing the road.

As you can see, imbedded in my thoughts are my beliefs. So, no one gets away from those. They just get to own their own.

I simply suggest it is more constructive to be moving forward, because I believe there is no such thing as being perfectly still, in the perfect center, here in this place of imperfection. That isn't freedom. Illusion isn't freedom.

[um]

@ Spence

What I wrote about freedom was related to the interaction between GS and somebody in the audience.

Guru's, the very moment they accept the role of master-ship have to cut the bonds with everybody, if they do not do that they ill be crushed as human being.

And having made that step, they without saying a word, offer all that come close to them to be free as well .. most do not want that freedom, they are scared to death ... hahaha

It is impossible to blackmail them emotional or otherwise ... many have played the card of "suicide" in vain.

[um]

P.S. Spence

Gospel: Matthew 12:46-50
But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

[Kranvir]

Let me tell you straight , Gurinder singh Dhillon is not a guru. He is a fake ass baba that uses negative influence of his master, lucifer/ satan to draw in the sheep - GSD often says he comes to collect his sheep. This is why his sangat are lambs to the slaughter.
He is not god, but anti god , who hates souls and wants to see our life in misery as he gets a kick out of it - this is why he always says the life of the sangat is harder. It is clear that he has sent his dogs, his agents on this site to cleverly deflect discussions, and peddle RSSB propaganda - clear off and go to rssb sponsored sites. GSD , your days are numbered , your tactics, and tricks are being exposed. Don't forget why you got cancer, why you have diabetes, why your property was burnt down with lightening strike in Haynes park uk - it seems someone is not happy. Keep hiding behind the army of security sevadar as sooner or later the sangat will wake up and come after u.

[um]

@ Kranvir

Tell us who has that power to inflict diseases etc on others!

and

As asked before:
How do you know all these things?
Your own experience?
Hearsay?
Fanrasy?
Wishfull thinking?
etc

[um]

@ Kranvir

>> Let me tell you straight , Gurinder singh Dhillon is not a guru<<

How do you know Kranvir?
Do you know what and who a guru is?

How do you recognize gurus and separate the real from the fake?

[Stay real]

@Spence....Baba Ji interrupted him, "No....We are all here to learn. Did you learn your lesson?"
"Yes, Baba Ji..." The man replied.
"Then it never happened."

How many times a wife beater admits he has learned his lesson? Ask the wife if beatings happened! Out of fear she may say no, but her bruises won't lie.

Nice, words of compassion for an audience. Certainly, the man needs encouragement. Unfortunately they ignore the plight of the real victims.

The man should be guided to get professional help, unless the master or his agent is regularly available to privately counsel and monitor him and address the needs of the victims simultaneously.

[Angels of Mercy]

@ Angels

What "light"is he "beginning"to see ????

Posted by: um | May 03, 2023 at 03:13 AM

That Shabd is the opposite of karma. Shabd/Holy Spirit is “forgiveness”. It’s the undoing of karma. Shabd does not work in concert with karma—they are polarities created by two different forces… two separate thought systems. Suffering is a learning tool but there’s never a set time that one has to suffer. And you don’t necessarily have to suffer to learn the truth, some learn quicker than others.

Suffering is not spiritual. Quite the opposite. When we associate and identify too much with the body we suffer.

[Angels of Mercy]

The primary difference between RSSB and Christian Mysticism is RS teaches that God created the negative power. In Christian Mysticism this is not true at all. A loving God would never create such a destructive thought system. A loving God simply provided humans a way to get out of the trap of the negative power. That’s why in Christian Mysticism the names of the negative powers or lower powers are not repeated (because they are not God).

[AOM]

@um

There’s no darkness in the realm of light. :)

[um]

@ Angels of light

What you wrote is, as far as I know, part of the official teachings of Sant Mat.
So being trained by his uncle, he is supposed to expand that teaching.

Against that background I still do not understand that you wrote that he, MGS, is "beginning" to see "The light"

What does he "see" now what he didn't see before according you?

In the second message you write that the Christian god did not create the negative power and at the same time you write that god created a way out of the trap of the negative power ... Question: "How did that negative power arise" if not by the will of God?

[um]

@AOM

>>There’s no darkness in the realm of light. :)<<

Yess ..and????
How is your answer related to what I wrote??

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AOM:
You wrote:
"That Shabd is the opposite of karma. Shabd/Holy Spirit is “forgiveness”. It’s the undoing of karma. Shabd does not work in concert with karma—they are polarities created by two different forces… two separate thought systems. Suffering is a learning tool but there’s never a set time that one has to suffer. And you don’t necessarily have to suffer to learn the truth, some learn quicker than others.

"Suffering is not spiritual. Quite the opposite. When we associate and identify too much with the body we suffer."

I see where you are going with this. How can there be darkness where there is light? Philosophically, there are explanations that have internal logic and make perfect sense, given their premises.

In this physical world we see both. Darkness and Light are both realities. If there is one creator, then both come under their will. What you see as good or bad is relative to your position. The entire creation is an expression of the Lord's will, in practically all religious doctrines, including Christianity.

Simply feeling good may not be good for you. And losing what you love can be a source of great pain, but also help us learn to turn within.

Suffering may be part of the journey back home.

There is a proverb, that the Master potter making a clay wrap pot beats the clay from outside with a stick, presses it, squeezes it, while supporting it from within to raise the pot...This is to explain that suffering outside also focuses us to turn within, where there is nothing but light, love and joy.

The very "Shabd", within, in its form within is a river of spirit that moves upward within, back to its source, helps raise consciousness to the level of the soul, to realize the Father. But it is the very same life force that moves down and out to create this world.

Both are true. And we all have our part to play. In the Eastern tradition, everything moves exactly according to the will of God. And in the Holy Bible you see the same. Job, in the final two chapters, says he realizes now that God is in charge of everything, and that his complaint about evil existing and evil even thriving is a misunderstanding.

Christ says much the same, that the point isn't to eradicate evil, but to turn from it, to cleanse ourselves of it.

St. Paul says the same:

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:5-13

The philosophy within Christianity, Buddhism and Sant Mat is parallel from this perspective....

"IF..." St. Paul writes that it isn't a given. There is a condition to "salvation"...
"If by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

That's not Jesus' job, it's not Baba Ji's job, it's not Buddha's job. It's your job. If you use what is within you, the power "of the spirit" that your teacher has taught you about, connected you to, and put to death the misdeeds of the body ... all it's distractions and diversions, then you will live.

Socrates mentions the same philosophy, to withdraw from the senses in order to witness the purity and joy of the soul, and its connection to the Father.

The body isn't evil. It has its functions. But if we don't put things into their priority, in balance, then these things that have their function now enslave us, and prevent us from our highest function, which is connection and enrichment of our consciousness to the Spirit. We say the "Spirit" is oppositional to the body, but that is a Western interpretation. The Spirit is found within the body also, even within the mind. It is the very force of life. So, from that perspective, body and spirit, mind and body are mental distinctions. It is one thing, though expressed at different levels. To understand this fully, we must raise our thinking, concentrate our thinking where we will discover this singular element, and not allow our thinking to continue to be scattered into pieces:

"Whoever isn’t with me is against me, and whoever doesn’t gather with me scatters."
Matthew 12:30

These are, at core, the same teachings, using different mythos, culture-bound, to explain the identical thing: Use the power within you to withdraw from the world, have communion with a higher power, pure light and joy, and thus put everything, inside and outside, into their right role and balance.

Evil and Good have no difference except their place and balance, in these different philosophies. They wear the clothing of their time, but under that, are identical. And why? Because the human body and all it contains is pretty much the same throughout recorded history. So, the practice of going within to find singularity, wholeness, Oneness with that power within all of us, or being distracted by outer, temporal things, and confused and lost, are the same.

[AOM]

@Spence

Throughout my entire life I have managed to be consistent in one thing above all others—I abhor self righteousness and really dislike the way people misrepresent God.

No wonder so many people don’t believe in God. I would believe in a god that condones suffering either.

But that’s just it—God isn’t about anything other than love. The negative power and suffering are opposite to God’s will. Yet He sees our pain and tries to free us from our suffering daily. Unfortunately, we rarely take His guidance believing that our will is sufficient. It isn’t. Our will is insufficient. Our will IS suffering.

[AOM]

If I thought that God was the monster that nearly every religion portrays him to be, then I wouldn’t have faith in him either.

But God isn’t a monster and he hates suffering. However, he sees our suffering and is always ready to help us out of the pain that we have created for ourselves. This begins with a true understanding of what God/Love is and a relinquishment of the Ego/Our Will.

We don’t know what it takes to make us happy. We don’t know the way out. Accepting that His will IS actually OUR will and it changes everything.

The thought system of the negative power is so alien to God’s way that it’s just astounding that religions and philosophies around the world still believe that God “punishes”.

There are no favorites in the kingdom of God because all are One. All are equal. All are love in their purest form.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AOM
There is much you write I agree with.
And where we disagree is inconsequential.

You wrote
"God isn’t about anything other than love."

Yes, agreed. God is love. I believe that.

You wrote
"We don’t know what it takes to make us happy. We don’t know the way out. Accepting that His will IS actually OUR will and it changes everything."

Yes, agreed. But how do we know His will? Perhaps it is just accepting things as they are.

You wrote
"There are no favorites in the kingdom of God because all are One. All are equal. All are love in their purest form."

At our core, yes. If we can go there and see that. If we can experience that, that's great. Our very purpose, I believe.

[El]

When things get nutso in life, comments like this one really help.

🌿He said, "The intellect is very limited. When the whole universe depends upon the Lord every moment for its existence, where is this talk of growing dependency? This is a very Western concept that doesn't bear out."
And then he gave me the smallest grin, and turned to the next questioner.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | May 03, 2023 at 06:48 AM🌿

Sometimes one hopes there is Somebody who knows what's going one bc I sure don't.

[El]

BTW, someone in the comments here made a seemingly outrageous claim. The person happens to be not wrong. I've seen something that corroberates that statement. You will know who you are, and I'd like to know how YOU 'know'.

[But first, for the inevitable snark by um ;) who will more than likely fail trying to hold it back.]

[uweissnat]

By the way, someone made a rather ridiculous allegation in the comments here. The guy is actually not mistaken. Something I've observed contradicts that assertion. You will be aware of who you are, and I'm curious as to how YOU "know." https://drift-boss.co/

[Moham]

When you think about it, satsangis are essentially Satanists because the repeat the names of the devil over and over again in meditation and throughout the day.

That’s why so many satsangis complain of experiencing blackness and fear in meditation.

[Anti NLP]

There is an rssb agent on this post who deliberately uses flowery language to confuse you to access your subconscious mind. They cleverly use NLP, (neural linguistic programming) to get you in a kind of transe suggestive state and then insert commands of RSSB living master/ satanic shabad which is dangerous and very snakey, deceptive and manipulative. You know who you are , stop it.

[Oomph]

@Anti NLP

🫢🫢🫢

Say it isn’t so 🤫 🤫 🤫

(between you and me, who is it that’s using NLP to twist the minds of the masses?)

[PRK84]

When there are so many financial allegations on the RSSB master why don't, the RSSB gives clarification on the same. That means there are some issues which are being deliberately covered.

[Giovanni Vines]

Hello,
It amuses me to read the above post and all of the comments below. I have been practicing Sant Mat (Surat Shabd Yoga) for over 50 years. So let me share just a few things. What matters most with this path is the spiritual development that each person achieves by devoting sufficient time each day to accurate practices of Bhajan and Simran. The truest measure of someone's personal spiritual development is the degree to which love has developed within him or her and in what ways, and to what degrees that love manifests in his relationships with others. Inner experiences of light and sound and out-of-body experiences are also important.
There is a fallacy inherent within Hindu culture in general that gurus are all-knowing. They are not. A true master does have his inner development and spiritual revelations, but he may or may not be highly educated and is certainly not all-knowing. Indians have been irrationally projecting super-human abilities and characteristics onto their teachers for thousands of years. If you're going to love your teacher unconditionally, then you certainly want them to be all-knowing and all-powerful. But this is just a projection by disciples and the masses onto their teachers. The real crux of this problem is that most spiritual teachers just allow their disciples to wrongly believe these things, rather than correcting them by saying that their true value is not as a know-it-all, but rather as a spiritual guide, one who has gone within and can guide others to go within. Baba Faqir Chand confronted Baba Sawan Singh about this once, and Sawan said it was better to leave these erroneous beliefs in place, that the masses would not understand.
Here's the bottom line. There are two areas of value in Sant Mat: the teacher and the practice of Shabd Yoga itself. Even if the teacher is not that highly spiritually evolved, if you take up the meditation disciplines wholeheartedly and practice them faithfully and accurately, you will find great benefit and you will go inside and experience spiritual revelations. If at some point you become convinced that the teacher is not the right one for you, you can always go to someone else for guidance and counseling. But don't change until after you've worked at Bhajan and Simran faithfully and accurately for a reasonable length of time.
I hope this helps

[um]

@ Giovanni

"Fratello", what is your relation with "Dharana Nada Yoga

[Giovanni Vines]

I am the author of "Dharana Nada Yoga". Dharana Nada Yoga describes "Shabd Yoga" using the language of yoga. I support all teachers and all students of Dharana Nada Yoga (Shabd Yoga). Sant Mat has developed to the point where it is now more of a religious movement than a purely spiritual movement. Hence the decision to coin a new term.

[Raman Gill]

Hi All,

I still can't understand why people are still defending Gurinder Baba. There are lots unanswered questions which straight give the signs of his involvement in fraud

1. From where this money is coming
which is supporting his life style?
2. How did he manage to make his house in Haynes park , UK on the name of charity?
3. Why his millionaire partner dentist address is on his wife's death certificate?
4. what is his involvement in fake companies which used to hide dirty money transactions
5. Why did he make excuses to court not to present before judge but meeting Prime minister and organising big programs and travelling abroad
6. Why didn't he produce his income tax details to court but when court ordered him to do so then he asked Court not to disclose his income details
7. How many of his inner circle people in UK getting salary of £60,000+ from this Charity
8. Where millions of dollars and pounds are going from these overseas centres every year
9. Why he doesn't publish his income details
10. What happened with the farmers lands he took even a big part of govt land was captured in beas
There are 100s of questions which he will never answer but some brainwashed people will believe him blindly

This is the matter of belief and not everyone is lucky like Brian who got out from this organisation in time....

What l will say GSD will have to pay a hefty price for his Karmas one day..just wait and watch. He spoilt many lives and families..if there is a Good He will be watching him and will do real justice one day

[um]

@ Raman Gill

Are you born to find fault with the man?

[um]

@ Raman Gill

>>This is the matter of belief and not everyone is lucky like Brian who got out from this organisation in time....<<

Hahaha ... It depends how one got involved, and what is one's social cultural background

But .. it will not be the first nor the last "gora" that leaves the next day after initiation ... hahaha ... religion in most European countries hast lost its meaning almost completely

[Raman Gill]

@May
I guess you need to take off the tinted glasses and wear the right one

I am not here to find faults in a Gurinder Baba but these are valid questions and it shows that how fake he is

He doesn't follow what he preaches

Once Guru Nanak faced some financial allegations and he opened his all financial transactions open to investigate. This Baba believe in hiding everything. He seems has a lot of sins to hide
This organisation has become a family business running on brainwashed people hard earning
Just look closely and you will find the truth. I wasted many years behind them .. believing them but with God's grace when l found the truth l left in no time

Haynes is full of administrative rude people supported by this Baba and many even get very high salary from many centers..they are millionaires

I am with truth and believe that one day real God will teach this Baba a real lesson who prompted by his organisation as God in human form

Just wait and watch... now it's not too long we will see real Justice

[um]

@ Raman Gill

Valid questions.
Valid to whom?

These questions raised by you are like the question seekers put before guru's , over and over again .. questions about free will etc these questions have been put before guru's for centuries and by now by thousands. Yet there will come new seekers and they will start the same discussion.

What matters is WHO raises these questions and WHY!

These questions have only meaning and value to THEM.

So your questions are only meaningful for YOU as YOU have some trouble to solve for yourself..

These questions you put here have been expressed god knows how many times by so many different people. At length everything that has been written in the news media , the courts etc have been discussed at length and if anything new will occur this will be the first place to have it seen on the table.

And you know that or you might know it .. then why bring them up her again.
What is in it for YOU to bring them up here?

These question seem to be valid for YOU.
Ask your self WHY.
THAT answer will bring you more than repeating questions to others about others, questions that are in fact accusations.

Consider that many people, in many ways more and less excellent than yourself, do not ask these questions.

They stay and they also leave, and they do it all for their own reasons.
If one is no longer satisfied, that is reason enough to leave.
No need to find excuses with anything else, for taking such an decision.

P.S.
Have a look in India and probably elsewhere.
Those movements that have come from the east, attracted many westernes are all on their return, at least here in Europe and in India they have all developed in what I call in wealthy "Religious multinationals".
So against that fact, the question does arise why you are so selective.
.

[Raman Gill]

@May

You seems so selective and brainwashed
Or set by this organisation to spread lies on this platform

You also seems racist who thinks westerns are less spiritual than Asian people. Gore are at same level

By Closing eyes like Pigeon will not make Cat to go away. Cat is still there and will kill the Pigeon one day

Regarding questions putting in front of Gurinder Baba..what a joke ..how can you expect a criminal to provide you the truth

When l was on this path, l asked him many questions and he never gave a straight answer...he does this with everyone so everyone stay confused.

Also do you know most of Gurus raised questions...Guriu Nanak used questions instead of criticising straight..His whole life is asking questions and enlightening people...

These questions and not only valid to me but valid to many people and they are asking continuously but Baba is avoiding them purposely as it will clear his involvement in this scam

They even removed the Financial scam link from their website when people know more deeply about this scam, Baba's involvement and his family relations with all the shell companies

Indian judiciary system will delay things as Gurinder Baba has deep political connection and he got money and power so you can't expect truth to come out easily

Brian is very lucky and same many people including myself who came out from this organisation

[um]

@ Raman Gill

You can call me any name, if that pleases you, it doesn make any difference.

That said.
He and his organisation is not your problem, YOU are your own problem and nobody else can solve that problem .

You should thank him that he and his organisation based upon their public behavior allow you to project your problems on them. Unfortinatelu that creates at the same time an problem for you.

You would have the same personal problems if everything with him and his organisation were at your liking.

[um]

@ AO and others

As far as I know I NEVER discussed on this forum what my feelings are of any guru or any teaching or organisation and I have no plans to do so here after.

I write in this forum and discuss what you amnd others put on the table.

The way I do that does not discloses my personal thoughts and feelings about these issues and that is not necessary even.

To think that iI defend etc is without any ground, and most of the time projection

I adress the writers here on what THEY do, think and feel

[Raman Gill]

@May

Please don't get annoyed..Truth is always bitter...and all the best .. spiritually teaches calmness and you can't get it from following fraud Babas.

I think l have some idea who you are ..from Haynes

This is my last post on this thread..all the best again and May you get the light of truth one day

Regards

[um]

@ Raman Gill

In answering your messages I forget to state that I have solve my personal problems in related to this organisation already many years ago, you on the other hand are still carrying them around. Nor even that you are cultivating tem and it will be a long time for you to get over it.

If you think I am not informed about the things that worrie you so much than you are wrong.

No you have no clue whatsoever who I am

[Raman Gill]

@ May

Just to clarify..l still go there to see Baba's circus and how brainwashed people running around him ..like slave unaware of his reality

Also some are on paid very high salary so they play a part in this drama. I know few personally

For many years l was the same but with God's grace l am out of it and can see very clear all this drama

I enjoy spirituality more now than that time and l am not a racist like you..l believe human beings are same

In Gurbani clearly said..l don't like these type of fraud Saint...also Gurbani says people ask you to close your nose, eyes and mouth are thugs

Baba didn't even spare his own nephews so how can he be faithful to anyone

Soon he will give all his dirty money and his post to his son or someone from family before dying..he already has limited number of days left...his sins are behind him....

[um]

@ Rama Gill

What I just do not get is, why do go there?
Why do you feed your own negative feelings again and again?
What does it matter to you what others believe?.

You decided to go, then why not just leave it behind and forget about it?.

And if you withdraw the reasons for leaving unto him, his teaching and the organisation, and just take the responsibility for that decision just in your own hands, you will feel much better.

You see Raman, you asked once for initiation for your OWN reasons, now leave it behind also for your OWN reasons, do not blame anybody else.
It is just your life and only you are respoinsible for what you do.

I