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August 26, 2022

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@ Brian Ji [ How often do you hear someone preach from a pulpit on the theme, "When it comes to God, the mystery continues"? How many people would follow a guru who says, "While I'm trying to understand what the cosmos is all about, the mystery continues"? ]

Few but honest mystics who unhesitatingly say "neti, neti" (not this, not this)
to attempts to describe an absolute reality. They salute material science;
they don't purport to offer a replacement for scientific exploration of the
phenomenological world at all. Instead, they only study consciousness
itself and declare what they've experienced within themselves.

They don't promote exclusivity in searching for truth either. There's no
One and Only One Legitimate Path. No hell or condemnation for alter-
native practices either except the affirmation that for ultimate truth you
must search for answers inside your own consciousness because they
won't be found anywhere else. They remain humble in that pursuit.
Ishwar Puri says his own Guru told him at initiation: "Here's a method
that's worked for me. I hope it'll work for you. But if it doesn't and you
find something better, come back and tell me. I'll follow it too."

One aspect of the universe l like is that we are intrinsically linked to it - that is, to everything. I am composed of the same stuff as the universe

Science has made some amazing discoveries re the universe, most of it beyond me - but that's fine.

'Revelations' from religious or spiritual processes can only ever be subjective - fine for the recipient but of small use for anyone else.

@ [ 'Revelations' from religious or spiritual processes can only ever be subjective - fine for the recipient but of small use for anyone else. ]

Are the proven health and cognitive benefits of mindfulness practice not revelatory...
beyond merely subjective. Science has acknowledged them so it's inaccurate to
label the results subjective or without proven merit.

Perhaps you mean religious/spiritual processes have never -unlike Science's-
facilitated "amazing discoveries re: the universe". IMO, the mystic would object
that consciousness is part of the universe and deserves urgent study. Further
that a disclplined mindful practice can enhance greater understanding of our
universe.

Subjective only though? Not really. The revelations and cosmologies of serious
mysticism are remarkably similar and invite research themselves. A tantalizing
topic, but returning to what's known, why are there cognitive and health benefits
to their practices? What's the mechanism? Can discoveries re: consciousness
be leveraged for even greater progress... personal and scientific?

D'ness. Indeed, mindfulness and meditation can help in reducing stress and to manage various mental and physical ailments – which has more to do with psychology. That is far different from the claims of mystics who basically claim to have had revelations of a personal experience of the absolute or divine. A mystic defines mystical experience as consciousness of The Absolute, Ultimate Reality, or God. This cannot be proved by science so remains subjective.

The mystical interpretations of their own experiences certainly do not accord with science. Except, where research has shown that such experiences can be reproduced in the laboratory by various methods of brain stimulation. Ingesting chemicals and brain illnesses also can produce such states.

Science generally understands that consciousness is a product of the brain and is mostly interested in finding out the brain processes that are responsible. They do not dismiss the mystics experience but conduct measured research into how such experiences emanate from the brain and how this can be beneficial to the physical and mental well-being of people.

Just like the various mysteries that science has rescued from the supernatural over many years, consciousness and the mystic experience may some day also be shown to be a natural occurrence of the evolving universe.

Dungeness, surely you see that the incidental health benefits to meditation, while real, are just that, incidental, where mysticism is concerned? It's like someone claiming that if only he could run at a certain speed at some particular time at some spot and in some direction, all the while breathing in a certain rhythm and rate, then he'd be able to fly; and then you find that all the running has made the man fit and healthy. Great and all, and objective as well; but all of it a non sequitur, no? Nothing to do with mysticism per se?

@ [ The mystical interpretations of their own experiences certainly do not accord with science. Except, where research has shown that such experiences can be reproduced in the laboratory by various methods of brain stimulation. Ingesting chemicals and brain illnesses also can produce such states. ]

Again IMO the mystic would demur with the dismissive assessment that he's
merely "interpreting" haphazard experiences. There's a disciplined path to re-
experience the same inner trajectory. It's far from "reproducing" them unreliably
via lab tests or "ingesting chemicals and/or attributing them to brain illness".
Tellingly, the same argument isn't made to explain away those "incidental"
cognitive and health benefits of mindfulness.

Also, the mystic reports -doesn't "interpret"- only what is experienced in his
consciousness. If he sees evidence of a creative power, he may term it "God"
for brevity to communicate with the masses. By the way, it's the overzealous
followers who tend to conjure up the most outlandish interpretative claims. As
for the word "God", please summon the blog police only for the more serious
semantic crimes.

Amazing. Didn't you understand my very simple, and very simply presented, argument, Dungeness? You talk about what I said; you seem to want to appear to be addressing what I'd said; yet you don't, in fact, actually address the meat of what I'd said. I don't directly address the mystic claim here. That claim, generally speaking, I'm agnostic about (80% on Dawkins's scale, not half and half). But what I'm saying is the health benefits to meditating have nothing at all to do with the actual and more dramatic mystic claims. To speak of those health benefits, when discussing mystic claims, is to essentially change the subject. Whether deliberate or inadvertent, it is, in essence, a form of misdirection.

@ [ But what I'm saying is the health benefits to meditating have nothing at all to do with the actual and more dramatic mystic claims ]

Again, t think a mystic might well demur because his aim is not to
segregate mystic 'claims' into tidy little compartments for unending
argumentation. Rather, the goal is simply to testify about what he's
experienced within, the methodology he's used, and offer help to
others in that pursuit. So the mystic would prefer to discuss health
benefits supportive of the ultimate meditative aim rather than get
mired in parsing 'claims'.

A mystic 'claim' is essentially an aspiration that the mystic had
some measure of success fulfilling and wants to share. Depending
on the language, customs, and audience backgrounds, the message
presentation may differ considerably or even appear contradictory.
But context is everything and real understanding only comes with
advancement in the practice. However, overzealous followers can
and do blindly try to codify a mystic's specific words and apply them
as general rules. It inevitably becomes a confusing diversion when
only meditative experience really matters in the end.

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