Sometimes the RSSB guru sounds like he doesn't believe the RSSB teachings

Sort of weirdly, in a recent post, "RSSB does teach that the guru is God in Human Form," atheist me was arguing that the teachings of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), my spiritual home for 35 years, say that the RSBB guru is God's right hand man (no female gurus yet) while some current members of RSSB were arguing the opposite -- that the guru is just a regular human like everybody else.

This perplexed me for a while. 

Then I came up with a theory. Being an ancient 73 years old, I was initiated into RSSB way back in 1971 when Charan Singh was the guru. He died in 1990, appointing Gurinder Singh as his successor. So my formative years as a member of RSSB were in the days of what I've called Sant Mat 1.0.

(Sant Mat means the path of the saints; Radha Soami Satsang Beas is part of the contemporary Sant Mat movements.)

In that original Sant Mat philosophy as taught by RSSB, there's absolutely no doubt that a central tenet was that the RSSB guru was God in Human Form, just as Jesus is considered to be in Christianity. In fact, several RSSB books relate the New Testament to the RSSB teachings. 

More: the RSSB teachings v. 1.0 also clearly said that it isn't possible to return all the way to God, a realm known as Sach Khand, without being initiated by a Perfect Living Master, another way of saying God in Human Form. This was noted in the quotes from RSSB gurus prior to Gurinder Singh that I included in the above-mentioned post. 

But in 2006 I wrote a post called "Sant Mat, version 2.0."  Here's what I said.

I’m wondering if there’s been a new release of Sant Mat, a north Indian spiritual philosophy centered around the need to follow a God-realized guru. It certainly seems that way from the remarks of several Church of the Churchless commenters.

Maybe version 2.0 has superceded the original Sant Mat that I was initiated into thirty-five years ago, and which I’ve written about in two books distributed or published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB).

Though now I’ve been called “Beas’ most articulate critic” (and not only by myself), I still have a genuine fondness for Sant Mat, a.k.a. Radha Soami teachings, and I want to be sure that I’m keeping up with the latest theological developments.

So if you’re a member of RSSB, help me out here. Am I wrong in assuming that the current RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh, has updated the Sant Mat philosophy? Since Gurinder Singh doesn’t write anything for publication, nor allow his talks to be recorded, nor permit attendees to take notes about what he says, it isn’t easy to make a comparison between the original Sant Mat teachings and the new guru’s version.

But here’s the impression that I get from hearing Gurinder Singh speak four times, spending two weeks at the Dera in India eight years ago, and reports I’ve gotten via this weblog and other sources about what he’s said more recently.

Sant Mat v. 1.0
--The guru is God in human form
--The guru is perfect, possessing God’s divine qualities
--God has chosen certain souls to return to Him
--God delegates the guru to initiate these “marked souls”
--Without initiation by a perfect guru, God-realization is impossible

Sant Mat v. 2.0
--The guru is a human who is seeking God, just like us
--The guru is imperfect, just like us
--Whether we want to pursue God-realization is up to us
--The guru is a spiritual guide, not a savior
--There are many paths to God, not just Sant Mat

This is just an off-the-top-of-my-head summary of several seeming differences between the old and new Sant Mat (or more accurately, RSSB) philosophies. However, if I’m even halfway right about v. 2.0, then kudos to Gurinder Singh. For this is a considerably improved Sant Mat, being closer to a science and further from a religion.

However, I’m a bit skeptical that either the RSSB organization or formal teachings really have changed to this extent. My take is that Gurinder Singh’s breath of fresh spiritual air is being diluted by those RSSB’ers who are either unwilling or unable to understand that this 2006 version isn’t your grandfather’s Sant Mat.

For example, a friend told me that when he went to India he’d hear Gurinder Singh say “We are all gods” when asked if the guru indeed was God. After the meeting ended my friend would ask other attendees what they thought of that rather heretical utterance. Most of them didn’t know what he was talking about. They only had heard what fit with their v. 1.0 conception of Sant Mat.

The winds of change may be blowing, but not in the mind of the typical RSSB initiate. Which isn’t surprising, given that Gurinder Singh has been so reticent to write or speak on the record. The current guru likes to say that he has nothing to add to the historical Sant Mat teachings, so the old books, tape recordings, and videos still serve as the official RSSB party line.

I could be wrong (naturally), but in my more optimistic moments I sense an increased openness in RSSB. This supposedly mystical organization has been heading down the road of becoming a hidebound religion, but maybe Sant Mat v. 2.0 will fix the dogmatic, fundamentalist glitches that are keeping this mystic philosophy from being a true spiritual science.

We can only hope.

After 16 years, now I'm not as positive about RSSB as I was in 2006. But I'm still interested in the apparent mismatch between what Gurinder Singh says in his talks and Q&A sessions, and the original RSSB teachings that I was exposed to for so many years.

It's as if the RSSB guru doesn't believe in some key parts of the RSSB teachings. I have no problem with that, since I'm a big believer in changing one's mind when it comes to religion and spirituality. In fact, in 2011 I suggested that Gurinder Singh has gone further and now has embraced Sant Mat v. 3.0. 

The roots of RSSB are traced back to Shiv Dayal Singh ("Soamiji Maharaj"), who taught from the 1850s until 1878. After him, a lineage of RSSB gurus continues to the present day. So for over 150 years, 1850 to 2000 or so, there was a consistent RSSB teaching.

This is obvious to those of us of the Charan Singh era who repeatedly read all the RSSB books ever published, including Shiv Dayal Singh's Sar Bachan. I'm not aware of any guru who made a significant change to the RSSB teachings until Gurinder Singh in the early 2000s. And then only verbally, since the current RSSB guru hasn't written any books as the previous gurus did.

So the past 15-20 years have been an aberration. I'm not saying Gurinder Singh is a RSSB heretic, though from what I've heard, sometimes he can sound that way. Which to me is a good thing, since I like heretics.

Again, my big insight, which I guess will sound obvious, is that members of RSSB in the Gurinder Singh era have been exposed to a considerable different version of the RSSB teachings than those of us who were part of the Charan Singh era. 

Comments

[um]

[1] Guru is god in human form, being imperfect

MSC many a time would grab energetically his own legs and with more energy in his voice say ... LOOK,... THIS [the body] ...is NOT the master. ... and YOU ...pointing at the audience [the bodies sitting there] ... You are not the soul.

It has been my understanding that he did whatever he could to prevent his students become worshipers of the flesh as in older days devotees had become worshipers of stone,....they should not make an IDOL out of him.

It was part of his teachings that NOTHING on this earth could exist even for a moment being perfect.

It has been my understanding that most of his followers were not able or willing to see him as a human being or found it difficult to implement his teachings as he was "just" one of them. So whenever he said he didn't know, there was always a follower divine smilingly telling others that ..He knows but his humility prevents him to say that he knows.

So most could not handle the "and this and that"position and forced themselves to use the ëither this OR that position"... and ... did whatever was in their power to make their teacher agree with their point of view.

[2] the role of the guru, as teacher and the follower as student

There has always been a tendency among the followers to justify their lack of effort by making their teacher seen as a savior. They could and can do it as it is part of the core teachings. But as in Christianity, the rescue is based upon the believe , the faith of the Christian so is in Sant Mat. The practice is not going to save a follower of sant mat. All gurus in that field state that in one way or another. It is the idea of the [Western] student that he will be saved due to his own effort. So yes you have to meditate but if you think that THAT is going to save you, You didn't understand the teaching at all. These are all things to be listened to on the tapes that are available of both teachers.

[3] the practice of sant mat as a path.

It is al a matter of concepts ... MCS would time and again ask one before answering ... "What is your concept of XXXX.

The reasoning was and still is ... IF there is a God, he can only be found in the human body. All human bodies being the same, the path leading to god can just be ONE. To this was added that the consciousness needs a carier. In the exterior the carrier is the senses and the mind and in the interior there is light and sound. As sound is the source of light, there is just one path that can be use by the consciousness. As it is a "long" journey in the interior there are many sceneries to be passed and yogis use the light as a carrier and the saints the sound. This was often compared with climbing a mountain ..when could approach the mountain from many sides.... different forms of concentration etc.

Finally:
When GSD started out he said that he would bring confusion and that is what he did ... hahaha.
Before him, listening to what an follower of MCS brought back from the Dera, I could always "hear" what MCS had said as if I had heard it with my own ears. That abrubtly change and i was face with , .. alright, that is what he, GSC, has said but that is not what he meant and how I would have understood it sitting before him ... reason to give up to be interested in what they had to say
MCS was already a master of words jugging but he had a good pupil in GSD ... hahaha and moreover he is often very funny in the way how he jokes people

That all said ... please do not take it as a defense of sorts either for the teachers of that path or its teachings and certainly not as telling something about me as a follower or not ... it is just a kind of nationalistic report so to say

[um]

Hahaha ....nationalist

My spellings controler has funny ideas ... hahaha

read it as ..... journalistic report

[um]

And ... strange as it might sound .....

MCS asked several times whether to advise , correct a dear friend, he said to refrain from it as if might hurt the feelings of the friend and cause him to turn his back upon Sant Mat all together.

Well ....

THAT is what all successors after Shiv Dayal Singh have practiced, in the sense that they would present the teachings according the "spirit of the time" .

They all understood that they had to by pass the cultural conditioning in order to create the opportunity for seekers to hear what they had to teach.

MCS often stressed that he reffered to the bible and the teachings of Christ as it was the cultural background of the seekers from the west. Not that he agreed with these teachings.

Again they are masters of word .. great juglers ...to understand them one has to listen to what was not said or in between the lines or listen to the tone whatch the body language ....

They never publicly said a word about the real teachings, they just focused on the seekers, their mental make up and the question on how to make them meditate.

They never said a word about themselves or the teachings beyond .. it is the lords lila
Please do understand that on entering that game of the lord you do NOT know what that game is all about ... because they have never discosed that.

They asnwer YOUR questions and these questions of yours are all related to this world, YOUR life, YOUR understanding .. THEY remain silent.

Wake up ... hahaha

[um]

They, these masters, invite you to come into their shop.

They do not tell you why they invite you nor what is in the shop.

They know as no other who and what you are, what your longings and desires are.

All things related to this world.

So they "speak" your language .. if you want to catch an animal you have to use the right bait .. so to say.

The point you aske me?!

My answer .. you have the slightest idea what you embarked upon when you asked for initiation, ...realy ..... nothing.

He would say that he spoke to the audience like parent that speaks to a child that ask questions not able to digest the mature answer and gives them just any answers to put them of.

And not to forget his reference to entering the french legion .. you are free up to the gate of the compound of the army. Just one step over the threshold, putting your signature, you will have lost that freedom .. you "sold" it to the legion for your reasons that have nothing to do with what the legion is all about ..just think!! The legion as other interests... so people ask for initiation for reasons related to their life in this world and have no clue what they embark upon.

Oh, grandma you warned me not to embark on voyages I did not now its destination and with captains I had the slightest idea what they had on their sleeves.

Kind women may peace be upon your soul, if you have one.

[Appreciative Reader]

Your thesis makes for interesting reading, um. I've no clue if it's true, of course, or if it's merely unsupported speculation; but the fact is that in at least two distinct traditions I've come across this ...idea, this trope, this practice, of the Teacher basically fooling the student, basically bamboozling the student. Not GSD-bamboozling, in the sense of make a monkey of you and yank your gilded and diamond-studded silver spoon off of your mouth and stuff it up your backside, and empty out your pockets and fill up his own, and fly around in jet planes and have his son sit on unearned and undeserved millions and billions, while you, the dupe, are bankrupted and cool your heels in jail. Not that more earthy kind of bamboozling, that our GSD apparently specializes in. The idea's something like this: In the normal course, no one in their right mind will embark on the spirituality project. The spirituality project, as taught by these traditions --- I'm referring to the Sufism, primarily, and secondarily and occasionally to Tibetan Budhhism (Vajrayana) --- is essentially about stripping off your ego, actually "killing" your ego; and no one whose ego isn't as yet stripped off (which is everybody!) can possibly acquiesce to that process, not if they truly understand what it is they're getting into. And so, the idea goes, the Master basically fools the student into walking the path. He offers the student whatever the student desires: knowledge, maybe, or maybe wisdom, or perhaps superpowers, clairvoyance, somehow arrive at riches, wish fulfillment, a son, a kingdom, the heart of your beloved that so far eludes you, whatever. A bait, basically. All for a noble cause, which is to get you to walk the path. (In fact there's an actual name for this as far as the Sufi tradition, this fooling-of-the-disciple thing, which I can't for the life of me recall.)

Well, um, I don't know if you're aware of these traditions, and specifically this aspect of those traditions, and are extrapolating here; but your thesis sounds close to what those guys claim to do.

Of course, all of that presumes that the path itself is real, and noble. Which is what makes such bamboozling a noble thing, rather than simply charlatanry. A big fat 'if', needless to say.

[um]

@ AR

I was not referring to the filling of pockets etc but to the last. ... and ... I am almost never speaking about teachers and their teaching but on the so called seeker, the one that knocks at their door. ..

If you remember the name of the sufi-fooling-the disciple-thing please do mention it here. [Folded hands ... hahaha}

Why for heavens sake would a person, without being forced by the powers of an spontaneous inner experience embark on such an voyage just based upon hearsay of others.

Others telling me how delicious this or that apple pie was in this or that shop has never moved me to go to such an shop.

[Appreciative Reader]

"@ AR

I was not referring to the filling of pockets etc but to the last"

..........I gathered as much, absolutely. I referred to the GSD kind of straightforward bamboozling, which ends with the him and his sons becoming millionaires and billionaires, and his dupes bankrupted of their gazillions and in prison, only to make fully clear that that isn't the kind of "bamboozling" I was referring to here.

----------

". ... and ... I am almost never speaking about teachers and their teaching but on the so called seeker, the one that knocks at their door. ..

If you remember the name of the sufi-fooling-the disciple-thing please do mention it here. [Folded hands ... hahaha}"

..........Can't for the life of me recall it. I've not come across such a term in Vajrayana, but I'm fairly sure that in Sufism there's actually a term specifically for that particular brand of fooling-the-disciple: but my google-fu, that I just now spent five minutes over, did not yield anything.

Absolutely I'll come back here and post it, should I end up remembering what that word was.

----------

"Why for heavens sake would a person, without being forced by the powers of an spontaneous inner experience embark on such an voyage just based upon hearsay of others.

Others telling me how delicious this or that apple pie was in this or that shop has never moved me to go to such an shop."

..........You're right, but it goes beyond that. The idea is --- and the idea makes sense --- that if you actually understand the true nature of spiritualism (as the Sufis see it), then you cannot possibly want to embrace it. To kill the ego, "Fana" I think is the Farsi word the Sufis use (or maybe Arabic, whatever). is essentially a snuffing out of the ego, which is akin to actually dying, in as much "you" are simply your ego. It is precisely this sense of self that is, apparently, sought to be annihiliated. It's essentially suicide! And what's more, not quick suicide, but one that must be painstakingly striven for over a fairly long period: Why on earth would anyone other than a madman attempt it, even? Hence, the deception, per their tradition.

[um]

@ And ... AR

Why would a master lure another human being to follow in his footsteps???
What is in it for him??

You call it noble?

But is it noble, what is meant by noble?

And more than anything else, why should the word come from another person?

Remember what I wrote about the Mnt everest.!
Yes, it can be climbed
Yes, it will make an huge impact on the one that manages to reach the top
But why for heavens sake would anybody desire to do it?
Let alone suggesting that it is the "goal" of life.

I do not know more than that the ultimate goal is to stay alive as that is ingrained in who and what I am.

Again there is nothing wrong with people following the path of sufism etc but it is certainly wrong in my opinion to suggest that it is the goal of life.

Before I woke up in the cinema, I was intrigued by the many "master" that were to be seen in the movie, but these day that has all left me.

Let me explain what I mean:
When young al men would smoke and if you didn't you were looked upon with crossed eyes, as if there was something wrong with you. I hated smoking as i didn't like the taste and it did hurt my lungs. Sometimes I would weep by the idea that I would never bee able to master this aspect of manhood. How happy would I have been if an grown up would have said to me ... but you need not.

There are so many things I have done in life, that I would certainly not have done if only some one would have told me ... but you need not ... you are a crow and that is alright ... hahaha

[Appreciative Reader]

"@ And ... AR

Why would a master lure another human being to follow in his footsteps???
What is in it for him??

You call it noble?"

..........Oh, *I* don't, um, not me. *They* do. Like you, I was just doing the nationalistic, sorry, journalistic reporting thing. :--)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji
The answer to the questions.. does RSSB tech the Guru is GIHF?
And has this changed?

I think the answer is multi-pronged, and yes the emphasis on which prong is being empathized can change day to day.

I did a little soul searching and trying to look at the texts again, and yes GIHF is literally the path... The worship of the guru as if they were God. You can't turn a page and not see it repeated or referred to ad nauseum.

And I now see the concern that any rational scientific thinker who believes human development is about freedom not enslavement, is going to see in that. Perpetuating the horror of human enslavement. Worse, not merely enslaving the body, but the mind.

But there are some mitigating teachings in Sant Mat as well to help put that into context, if you choose to go along with it.
.
1.The real guru isn't the physical body of the guru...
2.the real guru is the spirit in everyone taking the form inside you of the guru...
3. The disciple isn't the physical body of the disciple but the incorporeal soul, also revealed to ourselves within as we work towards our own liberation.
4. None of the above is to be taken on blind faith.. We can just think of the master as a nice teacher... The Masters teach this.
5. We must engage in meditation practice to make inner progress and see these things your ourselves.

So there is indeed quite a bit one must believe just to get started on the path.

What does Baba Ji say about all this?
Fortunately, quite a bit..

https://youtu.be/Ai-DRO8Clds

As you can see, there is a bit of 'splainin' required.

[Spence Tepper]

You can hear what Baba Ji himself teaches about GIHF here...

It's nuanced but quite consistent with what Maharaji and the other RSSB Gurus have taught..

https://youtu.be/Ai-DRO8Clds

[Um]

@AR
If I could write in Dutch it would be clear. So now things will slip into what I write that is not intended.

[Appreciative Reader]

"Why would a master lure another human being to follow in his footsteps???
What is in it for him??"

..........Good question. I have no idea, not exactly.

But I can guess. The Buddha's (alleged) words in this context comes to mind, although I don't know if the Sufis think that way. In a word, compassion. Help others out of the suffering that is the inevitability of staying within the world.

Again, not what *I* necessarily think or say. Once again, just the journalistic reporting thing.

----------

"Remember what I wrote about the Mnt everest.!
Yes, it can be climbed
Yes, it will make an huge impact on the one that manages to reach the top
But why for heavens sake would anybody desire to do it?
Let alone suggesting that it is the "goal" of life."

..........Indeed, um. I agree.

----------

"I do not know more than that the ultimate goal is to stay alive as that is ingrained in who and what I am."

..........I'm not quite as sure of that as you seem to be. Although somewhat lower on the certainty scale than you as far as that, but on the whole I suppose I'm inclined to agree with you.

----------

"When young al men would smoke and if you didn't you were looked upon with crossed eyes, as if there was something wrong with you. I hated smoking as i didn't like the taste and it did hurt my lungs."

..........I'm afraid I used to smoke heavily when I was studying, and for a couple years after; but I gave it up entirely after that. But thing is, I'm afraid I've always been weird that way, and proud of it. The peer pressure thing always left me cold. Never much cared whether what I did was "cool" or not, only whether it agreed with me. Even when younger, and far more so now than ever.

Although I say I'm proud of always making up my own mind, that isn't necessarily always a good thing, in as much as what is "good" is ultimately determined by whether it makes you happy. Still, for better or for worse, that's the only way I know to be.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR
You wrote
"It is precisely this sense of self that is, apparently, sought to be annihiliated. It's essentially suicide! And what's more, not quick suicide, but one that must be painstakingly striven for over a fairly long period: Why on earth would anyone other than a madman attempt it, even? Hence, the deception, per their tradition."

Beautifully stated. Yes. Yes. That's it.

Your local neighborhood madman / village idiot..
Spence

[Spence Tepper]

So what did Inner Maharaji tell me this morning?

"They are innocent, and do not deserve your anger. They deserve your love."

[Appreciative Reader]

Ha ha ha, hardly, Spence. In your case, taking your experiences at face value, and without at this time necessarily going all analytical about them, you've been blest with those experiences from the get-go, and spontanously. If that is madness, then it is, taken in this context, and minus the analytical hairsplitting for now, a divine madness. We should all be so lucky.

[Appreciative Reader]

That "hardly" is in context of your self-referral as madman/ village idiot. Not to your appreciation of what I'd said, obviously. (Just to pre-empt any misunderstanding over that.)

[um]

@ Spence

If your inner master has something to say to us, let him do so ...hahaha
Maybe he will say to us do forget spence as he does not know better, he is the victim of his upbringing. ... hahaha

All hearsay and you spence you are hiding behind the suppose inner master as far as your anger is concerned. hahaha

[um]

@ Spence

If your master can not speak directly to us, we have only your word, the hearsay and there is no reason why anybody should take you serious.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
A Village idiot has to suffer with that night and day. But the company of God makes for happiness in the midst of all that.

And makes it easier to admit their own idiocy.

May you be blessed with that love, Um, so that you will never have to take love itself second or third hand, as hersesay. Never put love after your pride. That may be the only barrier.

I'm my case stupidity is my greatest barrier. But his love is more powerful.

I can't explain what I myself don't understand. Isn't that foolish? Yes, I'm quite guilty of it several times a day.

[um]

@ Spence

If you keep things for yourself and rejoice in it, I would be the least to say a word about it.
If you would tell me how what you experience daily, fulfills your life's cup to the brim, what else would there to do than to be happy that such a gift had befall on you?!

Again your wealth is not the problem but what you do with it in the public domain.

You do not owe me anything, no explanation nothing at at all, your experiences are all yours to have and rejoice but as soon as you enter the public domain it is something else.

When my partner died, some friends, for days, had vortexes on their heads and they told me they were helping her to ascend as she was holding to life for some reason. I did not ask, I did not speak .. what they shared together was not my world and I was happy with the knowledge they all liked one another.

If, such a thing might befall me as I has you and some that are near and dear to me, I will pray that I never put it before others.

[Brian Hines]

Spence, I'm not equating you with a bunch of murderous Mormons. But the streaming show on Hulu, "Under the Banner of Heaven," which is based on an actual murder of a normal woman and her infant by extremely fundamentalist Mormons, contains numerous scenes along this line.

When the fundamentalists are trying to decide what to do, a leader will say something like, "I'm receiving a message from Heavenly Father [God], and He is telling me that we should do __________." This is pretty much a discussion ender for the other fundamentalists, since they don't want to irritate Heavenly Father.

I realize that you sincerely believe you are in contact with an inner Master or Guru. That's fine, I guess. I don't think it is true, but I'd never be able to talk you out of your belief. I'm just saying that when someone believes they are getting a message from God, which nobody else can hear, obviously, there's a risk of becoming rigid or even fanatic, since the hearer of the message thinks they are doing God's will.

Sometimes that will can be benign. But occasionally it can lead to murder, as in the case of the Mormon killers.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji
You wrote
"I don't think it is true, but I'd never be able to talk you out of your belief. I'm just saying that when someone believes they are getting a message from God, which nobody else can hear, obviously, there's a risk of becoming rigid or even fanatic, since the hearer of the message thinks they are doing God's will."

" Sometimes that will can be benign. But occasionally it can lead to murder, as in the case of the Mormon killers."

Hm. Yes I guess that's so.

So what excuse do others on this website have for clinging so closely to their opinions? Are they also in touch with God telling them the absolute truth? What other explanation can there be for such dogmatic views?

Are they so reluctant to have their own judgment questioned they can't acknowldge when they've missed something?

And the one who claims to speak to his own personal God is the one whose views are most fluid, always in transition?

How strange.

I think that inner relationship, if it is real, makes us less attached to opinions, especially our own.

But I'm not attached to that notion either.

[back from the dead]

Brian
Sam Harris often speaks of his "problem" with religious teachings is that they are ancient and many of them dont apply to the current times. He has mentioned in his waking up podcasts that he wishes they would be updated to be more relevant and relatable to the time we live in. Almost like a hinduism 2.0 or islam 2.0. So here you go with a living teacher (as that in RSSB) thats exactly what you are getting. The updated more relatable teachings without throwing out the doctrine all together.
KEEP THE BABY THROW OUT THE BATHWATER.

Genius I tell you :)

[Generation77]

Compared with Kirpal Singh's Ruhani Satsang (now Rajinder Singh's Science of Spirituality), RSSB under Gurinder has kept a faithful adherence to the Sant Mat teachings of the past 100 years.

Kirpal instituted a number of radical changes to the Sant mat teachings of Sawan: keeping a personal diary of mistakes and spiritual experiences, not looking into other people's eyes lest they infect you with lust or other negative energy, not taking any kind of pain killer even if one is seriously injured.

That aside, Kirpal and his apparent successor Darshan Singh presented themselves as gurus of Sant mat. Kirpal's grandson Rajinder has taken the mission in what to me is a strange direction.

Almost all the focus of Rajiner's satsangs are sermons about generic Indian spirituality. Moreover, all of Rajinder's books over the last 30 years pretty much steer clear of Sant mat teachings entirely and instead present the benefits of meditation as a way of stress release.

Rajinder has yet another book coming out on that theme: Detox the Mind. I'm guessing the approach is a strategy to get people interested in initiation by first selling them on the pluses of meditation for their health. I can't believe it's having much of an impact.

As for Gurinder Singh vs. Charan Singh issue, I have to ask why no one will produce even one quote to back up their claim that Gurider has made any kind of departure from Charan's teachings. I base this is having listened to dozens of Gurinder Q & As and coming them with my readings of 95% of Charan's published books and his recorded talks.

[Roger]

@Generation77

Were you initiated into Kirpal's Sant Mat???

[Brian Hines]

back from the dead, there's no problem with throwing out religious bath water. But when it comes to whether the RSSB guru is God in Human Form, meaning the guru has become one with the Holy Sound or Shabd that is the conscious creator and sustainer of the cosmos, that tenet has to be kept in order for the RSSB version of Sant Mat to continue to be what it claims: a means of God-realization centered on devotion to the physical form of the guru, since God is formless and can't be contacted directly. That's why a Perfect Living Master supposedly is needed for God-realization.

Generation 77, all I can say is that I wrote the blog posts about Sant Mat 2.0 and 3.0 based on reports from people who have attended Gurinder's satsangs. Quotes from Gurinder obviously are difficult to come by since he hasn't written any books and so far as I know, hasn't published theological/philosophical writings about the RSSB teachings. Still, maybe I'm wrong about Gurinder having updated the RSSB teachings.

A big problem is that Gurinder says two contradictory things, as reported by Osho Robbins in this post.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/08/osho-robbins-talks-with-gurinder-singh-dhlllon.html

The current RSSB guru both denies that he is God in Human Form or has any special powers, yet he told Robbins, "Just see what the previous gurus said and what the scriptures say." And the previous gurus definitely said that the guru is God in Human Form. So as I said in the post, Gurinder claims to be a regular human being in talks, but is fine with being treated as God in Human Form through the RSSB literature.

As the saying goes in my country, Gurinder wants to have his cake and eat it too.

[spence tepper]

There is certainly no harm in listening to what Gurinder himself has to say on this account.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai-DRO8Clds

Let's see if there is any contradictions in what he says here.

Of course, we might each hear something differently. But it may clear things up to get it from the source.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji
You wrote:
"Spence, I'm not equating you with a bunch of murderous Mormons. But..."
Whew, I dodged a serious bullet there! Or did I?

It's tough skating between the Donald, Kelly Anne, and the Murderous Mormons....

You've got quite a crew in your garden.

I prefer garden unicorns myself.

[back from the dead]

Brian you say
back from the dead, there's no problem with throwing out religious bath water. But when it comes to whether the RSSB guru is God in Human Form, meaning the guru has become one with the Holy Sound or Shabd that is the conscious creator and sustainer of the cosmos, that tenet has to be kept in order for the RSSB version of Sant Mat to continue to be what it claims: a means of God-realization centered on devotion to the physical form of the guru,
This is exactly where you are mistaken the path has never claimed devotion to the physical guru no guru says devote yourself to me or worship me. Sant Mat claims devotion to the shabd (which is the our true form and the gurus true form). The physical guru is here to teach you to help you attain that realization within yourself.

Brian you say
The current RSSB guru both denies that he is God in Human Form or has any special powers, yet he told Robbins, "Just see what the previous gurus said and what the scriptures say." And the previous gurus definitely said that the guru is God in Human Form. So as I said in the post, Gurinder claims to be a regular human being in talks, but is fine with being treated as God in Human Form through the RSSB literature.

No RSSB master has claimed of any attainment of their own they sing praises of thier own masters this is the humility they come with and the current RSSB guru is no different.

Brian you say
As the saying goes in my country, Gurinder wants to have his cake and eat it too.

I want some of that eggless cake too. :)

[In Search Of]

If this is the case, that GSD doesn't consider himself to be a GIHF, or whatever term you choose to use, then why drive around the satsang hall in his guru mobile and give darshan that way? What's the point? If he's not a GIHF and he doesn't want the teary eyed response in devotion that is obviously sent his way, why not stop doing it?

It's written in the Sar Bachan and other RSSB books that devotion to the guru is paramount in making progress within. You cannot progress without this. It's almost always implied, under the surface in each response to a question like that. This misleads followers into thinking that he says one thing but really means something else. It's intentional.

[Back from the dead]

In search of
yes the physical form and company of the guru creates love in the deciple to go within and experiment in the lab of ones own body, Hence the Darshan

[Ron E.]

Spence mentioned: - "So what excuse do others on this website have for clinging so closely to their opinions? Are they also in touch with God telling them the absolute truth? What other explanation can there be for such dogmatic views"?

I once heard a course lecturer listening to a participant explaining his spiritual beliefs asked, “Does it help?

Is this the overriding reason for the thousands of beliefs and philosophies we adhere to? Even those based on science can be included in the drive to find some meaning in life, to engage in some belief system that gives purpose and meaning.

It is practically a natural quest stemming from the basic essentials for food, clothing and shelter along with the needs for a partner, family, community etc. The next step in human evolution was to have these needs extended to more intangible needs, to be right and secure in what is believed.

The particular primed cultural information that makes up the contents of the mind, give the impression that these contents are who I am in that they form the structure of identity. Such mind structures become as (if not more) important to survival as the basic, physical needs – with the obvious consequence that they must be protected.

The cause of many of the conflicts of war and violence and also the for the many vigorous views, beliefs and opinions we all give rein to, stem from this need to be psychologically secure. Our assumed identities use many tactics to remain intact from outright violence to undermining another's beliefs.

The preferred or conditioned remedy to help one make sense of an often anxiety ridden and apparent confusing life could lead to embracing one of the various belief systems, spiritual groups, satsangs, dera's, being a teacher or guru etc. – all could help, all give some sort of meaning to life. Meaning could also come in the form of family, work, community, status, fame or the caring professions.

Whatever meaningful practical undertaking or thought constructed system that gives a sense of purpose and meaning is the one we will championing and defend – until that is, a better one takes its place.

[Generation77]

@ Brian Hines

Thank you for your reply, but after looking at the Osho link I'm not sure he's aware that Charan Singh ever claimed the the Sant Mat guru takes away the initiate's karma.

What RSSB Sant mat has taught is that shabd and guru bhakti of the disciple resolves karma. Both Charan and Gurinder have been repeatedly adamant and clear about that (although there is some understandable confusion given the RSSB doctrine that the shabd is the guru, the guru is the shabd made flesh, and that both are therefore essentially "God.)

(Notably, the Kirpal line of gurus actually do claim that at initiation the guru takes on a portion of the iniiate's karma)

If there's are ways that Charan and Gurinder do differ in message, I can actually name a couple:

1) Gurinder has recently said that there are any number of religions where one can find God, and that a person's diligence and earnestness are what makes a difference, and that Sant mat offers a focus on the shabd, which is a distinctively superior yogic method. I'm not aware of Charan ever saying anything like that.

2) Charan in Divine Light repeatedly refers to "false masters," and I'm not aware of Gurinder ever stressing the Sant mat concept of perfect masters vs. false masters. Moreover, Gurinder has intimated that he as guru is more or less a functionary or useful means of the disciple's devotion to God. Charan has also said he was a "stone idol" for the sangat's devotion, and also stated that he is "just like everybody else" ie a struggling soul. However, it seems that Charan also seemed to believe he was a channel of sorts for whatever divine power existed in the guru line. This issue of just what a Sant mat guru is has been an issue since the beginning of Sant mat (is he God? Is he just a man? Is he some kind of hybrid of God and man? Is he just following his family's request to take the guru role but has faith that the ascended previous gurus are helping out?)

I get it that Gurinder could be seen as being coy and cagy on this issue, but I don't see evidence that he was any more so than was Charan or any of the other gurus in the Beas line.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Ron E.
Stanislavski, the great originator of method acting once told a young and ambitious actress

"Love the art in yourself.
Not yourself in the art."

If you are of the former, then your love, your art, your passion makes you, and remakes you at its behest and not the other way around.

But it is never an easy process...

"“But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years."
Malechi 3:2-3

We are clay, but Gold is refined in us.

[Appreciative Reader]

Why quote from the Bible with the air of saying something wise? The Bible is a bunch of BS written by a rag tag bunch of ignorant superstitious men, and contains stuff that advocates misogyny, and rape, and genocide, and bigotry, and slavery, and plain evil. It is mostly ignorant superstitious nonsense, in parts evil, in parts nonsensical, and in occasional parts wise as well. That wisdom is no big deal: I've not read Mein Kampf, but I've no doubt if you cherry picked that vile document and quoted them standalone, you'd find stuff that's wise, and apparently moral, and even beautiful and moving. Likewise the Bible.

Why the hell do people quote from the Bible at all? I'm guessing it's the sunk cost fallacy. Most people have wasted hours and hours studying this vice document. Some unfortunate souls have actually had the misfortune of actually studying it formally, this worthless nonsensical superstitious evil book ----- not like you'd study literature, which is cool, but as if it speaks to reality. And these people aren't able to write off that time and effort wasted on this trash, as they should --- which is the sunk cost fallacy.

Ergo this weird thing, where people keep saying weird things out of the blue, like "Judas 666:666: Thou shalt doeth kisseth ass, then shalt thou kisseth cheek,, for shekels, what was I sayeth I forgeteth, the Lord shalt nonsenseth."

Stop doing that, guys. It looks silly. And it's nonsensical, unless the discussion happens specifically to be about the Bible itself.

[arun marwah]

Gurbani says: Pawan Guru Paani Pita, Mata Dharat mahath. Meaning is Air is Guru, Water is Father, and Earth is our mother.

[arun marwah]

Greenstone lobo in his book 91 predictions writes:Neptune rules spirituality. Expect a burst of spiritual activities around the world. People will now be talking about spiritual emanicipation, about the existence of the soul and salvation, and things beyond material possessions. This period will see the rise of spiritual gurus and masters, and they need not necessarily be the conventional ones in robes. Watch out for some events somewhere in the world during this time which will later be classified as miracles. Neptune rules religion and spirituality, but Uranus and Pluto are also present. We need to be wary of some in fighting within various factions of a religion.This will, over a period of time, lead to some reformswithin that religion. We cannot rule out the possibility of communal tensions either. Probably, these problems will eventually lead to the formation of a new form of religion, religious groups or cult. (The Triumvirate Neptune, Pluto and Uranus brings in better times (2022-2024)

[Dungeness]

@ AR [ Stop doing that, guys. It looks silly. And it's nonsensical, unless the discussion happens specifically to be about the Bible itself. ]

He that throweth out quotes for unrighteousness soon
turneth to burning whole books.

[777]

There is no difference - the semantics are the same
Gurinder might not have observed His Own Radiant Form
but definitely the One of His Master
I have answered all questions in my comments
As a Custodian He got the 5 words package of Naam
to give out and 10M people witness it works

777

And yes Brian is the Almighty Creator in utterly amnesia trying to remember daily

[Tereasa]

If you put someone on a pedestal, wrap a robe around them, put a turban on their head and tell everyone he is special. You are creating an atmosphere already.
Then you make that person who says he is not God, walk around, stare into the eyes of his followers intensely and call it Darshan plus bless sweets with his touch. And you still want to tell us that you are not pretending to be a god in human form?
How dumb does he think people are?. Considering the amount of followers, I guess I walked into that wall. But for those with an inkling of intelligence will not fall for this show for very long. And it is a show.

[777]

Hyper commotion & inspiration 4 this blog
and elsewhere
after the next Sat Guru will be appointed :
MalvinderJI MaharaJI by HIS Grace
777

[Joe]

@777

Isn't Malvinder currently in prison?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR
I had quoted from Malachi in the Bible and you had the remarked
"Why quote from the Bible with the air of saying something wise? The Bible is a bunch of BS written by a rag tag bunch of ignorant superstitious men, and contains stuff that advocates misogyny, and rape, and genocide, and bigotry, and slavery, and plain evil."

But how exciting to find the opposite, and inspiration in it also!

Love your neighbor as yourself? And who is your neighbor? Even the foreigners living in a distant land following a different religion are your neighbors! Said Jesus, and quoting from the old testament!

What about the year of jubilee? All debts, all loans forgiven? Even the sins and debts of foreigners who are not your religion?

The Bible has over 100 books. And these reflect a variety of ancient cultures. But in all that, including the horrors you speak of, are also ethics we still have not achieved today, and so that is an inspiration, a goal to work towards. And the fact that humanity longed for these same things is an inspiration.

BTW all the best arguments for Atheism can be found in the book of Job and Ecclesiastes... Even the Bible acknowldges them!

And in Song of Songs, the living representation of God, who brings her beloved back home, is a woman!

Even vegetarianism, the diet of fasting David, is described as the ultimate diet not just of human beings but all creatures...

The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of might,
the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the Lord—
3 and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.

He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
or decide by what he hears with his ears;
4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 11:2-9

This is why censorship is wrong. Because even in the most unlikely places, there is some inspiration for good. Sometimes an astounding truth.

Occasionally the person you consider your enemy, speaks truth.

Yes, it happens! So then who really is my enemy?

It can only be ignorance. Even our own!

[Appreciative Reader]

Dear Spence, so palpably sincere is the depth of your sentiment, as evidenced in all of this last comment of yours that you address to me, that my earlier comment, focused as it was entirely on the factual, now seems unbecomingly churlish!

Not that I don't stand by what I'd said. I do, absolutely, all of it. But the kind of ...mode I find you commenting on now, it's clearly not so much factual as simply conveying your feelings, your emotions. Which does get through, to me, in this comment. So that, and at that level, and limited to that mode, it does not matter that what you've said does still, seen factually and logically, come up short; and to focus on that latter now would be ...like I said, churlish.

I'll simply stay with the sentiment you convey here, Spence, and in full appreciation of it; and not engage with the factuality/logic/all-of-that, of any of it. Cheers.

[Appreciative Reader]

“@ AR [ Stop doing that, guys. It looks silly. And it's nonsensical, unless the discussion happens specifically to be about the Bible itself. ]

He that throweth out quotes for unrighteousness soon
turneth to burning whole books.”

(Posted by: Dungeness | June 15, 2022 at 11:34 PM)

----------

How on earth does what you say follow from my comment, that you’ve quoted from, Dungeness?

How is what I said remotely “unrighteous”, how on earth? Pointing out that the nonsensical bits of the Bible is nonsense; and pointing out the undeniable advocacy and/or apologetics in the Bible for misogyny, and outright genocide, and infanticide, and incest, and rape and pillage, and such totally barf-inducing “lessons” as handing over your daughter and your guest’s girlfriend out to be gang-raped, and then killing the latter (the girl, not the rapists!!) when she actually is gang-raped as a result; while also acknowledging the wisdom and beauty that is also sprinkled in along with all of this evil bilge: in what universe is any of that “unrighteous”? Answer me that, Dungeness.

I get it. It’s because the monster that demands worship in the reprehensible document overall that is the Bible, keeps on using the word “righteous” again and again to refer to its own commands and commandments, like “Genocide thee the people of that land, for that is the righteous thing to do”, and so forth, that anything that goes against this thing, then become “unrighteous”, eh? How the hell is that qualitatively and logically any different than how the Taliban, for instance, view what is righteous and what is unrighteous?

And where on earth do you get the part about the burning of books, Dungeness? That’s, like, plucked right out off of your ass, with zero basis in anything I’ve said! That’s a strawman, if ever there was one, a bit fat ugly strawman wholly and entirely of your own creation. Because you haven’t anything at all to factually criticize in what I said, therefore you create that blatant strawman about burning books, despite the fact that there is nothing, nothing at all, in what I said, to suggest anything remotely of the kind. (And the irony of it all is, it is actually the religious that generally tend to go in for this book burning thing. Not 100% of the times, but I’m guessing the vast majority, maybe well upwards of 95%, of all of the book burnings so far, was done by theists, and as some warped demented homage to their own pet Theos.)

----------

I’m speaking on this at such length, Dungeness, because I was astonished to read that, coming from you. You I’ve always found reasonable, balanced. How does someone like you get down to this kind of utter disingenuity, how on earth? Truly it is, that “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil (well, hardly “evil”, in this case, but utterly and disgracefully disingenuous argumentation, that much certainly), that takes religion!” If this isn’t proof, right here, of the baleful nature and effects of religion, then I don’t know what is ---- that it should reduce someone reasonable and balanced and upright like you, Dungeness, you of all people, to this kind of unbecoming disingenuity.

----------

And now, after all of this, we now have “arun marwah” crawling out of the woodwork once again, with his half-witted astrological superstitions, once again shamelessly shilling for that book written by that friend of his that fills his belly by cheating others with this superstitious nonsense.

I guess I should learn to simply ignore stuff that isn’t really worth wasting one’s time over. (I’m not talking about you, Dungeness, not at all; that weird comment of yours that I spoke on just now is an aberration, the one and only time in all of these years that I’ve found you commenting disingenuously. Happens, not an issue, beyond merely my pointing it out clearly, as I've already done just now. I’m talking about our superstition-addled friend who’s hell bent on peddling his friend’s astrological charlatanry on here, and who seems utterly incapable of even understanding it (or at any rate acknowledging it) --- far from actually defending it --- when what he’s doing is clearly and graphically and comprehensively shown up, as I’d done last time he tried this same thing here, to be utterly lacking, in both rational and ethical terms, and who simply returns to unthinkingly doing the same thing again, without reflection, without understanding, and without any question of any meaningful/rational engagement.

Yeah: I’m doing it already, as I speak/write, already growing a thicker skin. I’ll hold my tongue when I see his kind here next time.

[Dungeness]

@AR [ How is what I said remotely “unrighteous”, how on earth? ]

No, no, no, I was mocking the sanctimoniousness and
ire that your critique might set off in a fundamentalist,
hard-core Bible "thumper". The "unrighteous" word
with its primary definition of "sinful, wicked" fits as the
offended would likely charcterise attacks on the Bible
as "unrighteous".

That said, I do object to a call to limit random Biblical
quotes to discussions of the Bible itself. There are
too many memorable biblical gems that enrich our
literature and are apt in all settings. It was over-the-
top to compare limiting bibical quotes to "burning
books" on my part though. What starts as a joke
shouldn't become a passive-agressive jab.

[Appreciative Reader]

"@AR [ How is what I said remotely “unrighteous”, how on earth? ]

No, no, no, I was mocking the sanctimoniousness and
ire that your critique might set off in a fundamentalist,
hard-core Bible "thumper". The "unrighteous" word
with its primary definition of "sinful, wicked" fits as the
offended would likely charcterise attacks on the Bible
as "unrighteous"."

---------------------

Pardon me, I misunderstood you, in that case, Dungeness. As you rightly admit, it was more passive-aggressive than humorous; but still, it's on me that the essentially humorous intent of your comment escaped me. Total over-reaction on my part, in that case.

As for the rest, I'm afraid I disagree. Like I'd said in my original comment, no doubt Mein Kampf (which I haven't read) also, if you mined it for off-context wisdom, you'd very likely be rewarded with poetry as well as actual wisdom. Likewise with the Bible. I'm afraid the vile bits in the Bible are far too many, and indeed the central premise of the Bible itself is exactly the opposite of what any decent human being will refer to as "moral", so that quoting from it as if anything it says adds heft to one's words, is a nonsensical conceit.

But not to beat that equine to death. Clearly we disagree; and, while I find no justification for your more conciliatory POV; and we could, I suppose, spend a few comments each exploring in more detail our reasons for our differing evaluations of the Bible overall; but what the hell, let's not. Let's just do the agree to disagree thing.

[Back from the dead]

An explanation by Mr Puri on why Masters change the teachings or answers to deciples and many times appear contradictory

https://youtu.be/KSjOi0AVXyg

[777]

@Joe
Yes Sir
That s right
God's ways are wonderful
777

[777]

Beautiful Spence
I wish they would find
old scripts, proving
that Eve's Apple is fake news
It was a steak!
And the land_Lord was so right
to expulse the killers
until they learn empathy again
on this harsh planet

Even placed some Seraphins before the entrance

Therefore helping the oldy cross the street
is so important UM

777

[um]

Och 777

So sorry, I do not understand your strange language of love.

[777]

Zo simple
it shows itself in empathy
b v in de bus opstaan voor
iemand , zonder dat het MOET
Ik weet zéker dat je dat doet (haHa soms )

777

[Dungeness]

@ 777/um [ Zo simple it shows itself in empathy
b v in de bus opstaan voor
iemand , zonder dat het MOET
Ik weet zéker dat je dat doet (haHa soms ) ]

A translation of 777's language of love from the Dutch:

So simple
it shows itself in empathy
e.g. getting up on the bus for
someone, without having to
I'm sure you do (haHa sometimes)

[777]

@Dungéness
You must have been Shaekespear
in a past life
or the translator deserves the Nobel prize
btw
I m asking myself why this is difficult
It s everywhere : to be kind for another Soul
Lot of people mistake love for sex which is
mostly for one's self gratification and sometimes
for the partner
It is as Mirdad sais : Love is the only stuff in the universe
that doubles itself in the giver while giving it away
and so exponentially up to what happens by seeing a Saint
, next being a Saint
and a zillion grades in°between
like Brian feeling so peaceful while walking around his property
admiring nature
Love for the trees and feeling HE resides in°there

777

This is what Blake Lemoine tried to explain
to the QUBIT computer and what made the Google bosses afraid
Shame he cannot continue

[Sonya]

OMG are we splitting hairs or what?

YES, RSSB teaches that the Master or guru is GIHF. Period. And you can say (2.0) that this just applies to the guru’s “inner essence” but it’s all the same—THAT PERSON/guru/Master is GIHF as far as his initiates are concerned.

Let me set set the record straight once and for all—if the masses didn’t believe that GSD was GIHF then there would be no influx of seva or money to supply the guru and keep the Dera going.

Hence the need for the myth.

End of story.

[Sonya]

The modern Masters have to walk a fine line between the archaic teachings of the past and the rational thoughts of sane, educated, intelligent people. So, they come up with these 2.0, 3.0 teachings.

Get your shit together. See it for what it really is.

[um]

@777

The more one uses words like "love&devotion" the more they lose their meaning and eventual become empty.

Those that love others get up in a bus for others
but not all that get up are lovers.

Hahahaha

There is no need to use these WORDS.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Sonia
To love the Master as God In Human Form, not just in words, but to actually feel, sitting before the Master, that you are in that presence of God, in the presence of pure love. That is the experience of worshipping the Master as God. That the Lord is right here before you, and that he adores you.

Naturally, to feel that is to feel something as or more wonderful than the most wonderful thing in life. And naturally, nothing else compares with that moment. And so there are no distractions. And no desire to do anything but just be in that moment with your Master, indeed, One with Him. And in that focus other strange and wonderful internal events happen.

These are words to describe an experience, or really the gateway to a series of amazing experiences.

How is it that those engaged actively in formal religion are healthier and live longer (about six years longer) than those who are not? Perhaps those moments of bliss that come from simple and pure-hearted worship have a very central and healthy impact on our lives. I believe they do.

So, if anyone has experienced that, they want more. You might say they are hooked. And so millions of people get hooked in various religious and spiritual practices simply having this experience of divinity, through the simple worship of divinity. This need not be religious. It could be worship of your favorite movie star, or any charismatic personality. Many felt this way about Hitler.

Ideally you would like the Teacher who inspires such feelings to be worthy of doing so.

But if we aren't worthy of it, then we ourselves may struggle with doubt.

So the problem may be two sided, the legitimacy of the Teacher / Priest / Guru / Leader and the legitimacy of ourselves. But actually it is only one sided because we see the object of our love through the filter of ourselves.

They say love is blind. Evidence for that abounds.

But the experience of love is a real experience. Something real is happening. And for the small price of worship, we can live in that experience.

1. The bee robs the flower it feeds.
2. The God's grant the wishes of those they would destroy.
3. The darkness is filled with hidden candles. Don't shout at the darkness. Light a candle.

[El]

Maharaj Charan Singh Ji quotes the Bible in a Q&A to underscore the same concept of "Ye are all Gods" 🙏 . Literally heard it a few days ago. The more I listen to these the more similar it sounds to all the answers B GSJi gives. Should have saved the #.

[Jim Sutherland]

EI posts,…..”Maharaj Charan Singh Ji quotes the Bible in a Q&A to underscore the same concept of "Ye are all Gods" 🙏 . Literally heard it a few days ago. The more I listen to these the more similar it sounds to all the answers B GSJi gives. Should have saved the #.”

Sorry, but that’s where I disagree with Charan and the god/gurus. I also disagree with Charan’s advice against having Vets put down Pets to avoid end of life further pain and suffering. I can expand on why, if any readers with sick pets are interested.

As for any one here being God now, in the past, or ever in the future,….sorry, …it will never happen. Ramana's I Am God teachings , and all of the Neo Advantists are mistaken. I wrote an Article of my view on my blog which I also shared here, in the past.

I challenge any one imagining they are God to honestly admit that they,….we,….have EVER exposed every last hidden secret in our hidden closets with ANY other human being, including our closest friends, spouses, Gurus, Priests, or Clergy. We ALL have always been,…are,…and will always remain,….UNGODLY.

Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

Charan Singh said to let our sick pets die on their own. Have any Satsangis ever watched their dying pets suffer with out helping them die? If so, there is no escape from Karma, as I found out. My Tom Cat couldn’t pee, and I just let him suffer. My Karma caught up to me this past Feb. 2022, when I turned 80 and no longer could urinate, and a 103 fever sent me to the Emergency room with sepis and a buldhi g bladder ready to explode. I am horrified thinking of if some giant had held me down and squeezed my bladder until I urinated, instead of draining me with a Catheter every month until finally reliving me with surgery just this past April 12th, 2022
Some Karma was being burned from my allowing my Tom Cat to suffer so long and badly. In Ca., one of my favorite Himalayan Tom Cats couldn’t pee when he hit about 14. I took him and left him at the Vet, who kept him for 2 weeks. She called me to come get him. I went, and cried as I held him. She had been holding him over the sink, and squeezing his bladder forcing him to pee. She showed me how to do it, and I took him home, and squeezed his bladder making him pee. I would force him, and he would cry. After only about a week, the last night I did it, he cried, I cried, my wife cried, and our other cat cried. It is still horrible to remember. The Vet would not Euthanize him, and I just let him suffer and die. I can’t help but think, my present condition is associated with my Karma for not putting him down. No God would EVER allow ANY of His Sentient Beings to suffer like that for so long with out relieving them, as my Urologist relieved me.

[Jim Sutherland]

Friend Satsangis.....question for you? With all of your cats, or pet Dogs, of your past,....what do you do when they are dying? Do you watch, grieve, and let them suffer and die on their own in final agony, or do you have then euthanized? It’s one of the things I just can’t seem to forgive my self from doing, either way. In several of Charan Singh’s books, he explicitly said not to kill our pet dogs or cats, and we should try to help them as much as we can to let them die on their own, with out killing them, because they are balancing their karmas. I really took it seriously, with my 2 Himalayans while in California. I bought them both from the same Breeder at the L.A, County Fair a year apart. The 1st one was a Seal Point and I registered him and named him Pharaoh. I loved him dearly, and Vice Versa. He lived to be 14 and 3 months. He couldn’t pee in his final months, and I left him at the Vet for 16 days, and she would squeeze his belly over his bladder until he squirted urine out. She said there was nothing more she could do, and she showed me how to squeeze his bladder, and said to take him home. He lasted about 3 weeks at home, and it was an absolute horrible experience for my wife, me, and our other cat. As he was dying slowely, day by day, I kept thinking about Charan’s instructions to let him balance his karma. I kept praying he would reincarnate as a human male. I made a soft bedding for him in our living room with towels and he stayed on the towels. I kept soft Meditation music playing all day on my Stereo while We were at work. The final night, when I squeezed the urine out of his bladder, I had a real hard time, and I hurt him badly, as he cried. We were all so sad. He died that night. I wrapped him in a sweater and buried him out in my little back year, his house mate cried, and howled for the next 2 weeks calling and looking for him. He was about a year and a half younger than Pharaoh. I registered him and named him Gabriel Angel Blue, Nick named “Gabby.” He was so lonely, that I rescued another Cat, that was part Rag Doll right away, but 2 weeks after I got him, I had an opportunity to adopt another Blue Point Himalayan like Gabby was. This one was 4 years old and had been abused. He attacked Gabby and my other Rag Doll cat right away, and I ended up isolating him in our bedroom for the next 18 months! He bit me several times real bad on the arm, drawing blood. He was an ankle biter too! We finally cured him of biting by spraying water on him. But back to Gabby, he bonded to my wife more than me, until Pharaoh died, than bonded to me. He lived only 13 years and 8 months before dying. Again, I let him die on his own, slowly,.He had several seizures, one while right on my lap. Again, we suffered with him, watching him die. My wife said she never wanted to go thru that again. The Rag Doll was 2 when rescued him, and he loved me dearly. But after only 2 years, we found him in back of the T.V. Dead! . I never knew if he chewed on a cord or just what happened. I buried him out in the back heard with Gabby and Pharaoh. .So then, only our biter Cat, Shadow was left. He was very lonely, and I rescued another Rag Doll, Corbin, who was 2 when I got him, they got along great immediately, but Shadow was always Top Cat. We brought them both to Virginia with us, and we loved them dearly. The 2 cats I brought from Ca. To Virginia with me, loved me the most of any living person or animal I ever encountered! They loved me more than Ann ever loved me! I still feel sad and guilty about putting them down, as they were the only ones I ever put down, rather than watch them suffer to the bitter end and die on their own. Animals love us unconditionally, never expecting any thing in return. When ever I returned from a week on the road at work, my Cats were there to greet me and much more excited to see me that Ann was. I still miss them and think about them every day. Love never fades away. We took them both an all of our travels after we got to VA., until we started doing foreign travel. Then, I hired a Pet Watcher for $12 a day to come in daily and clean the litter box and feed and water them, we were gone an entire month a couple of times. Ann was with me at the Vet when we put the 1st one down. It was so sad. We both held him and cried together as he died in our arms and went limp with the shot to his heart. The last one, Ann wouldn’t go with me, and I went alone. He might have lasted another couple of years, if I had tried to get him mended, but he had not eaten nor drank water for 5 days, and his back legs were gone. He had to drag him self with his front legs, but he still tried to get in my lap, but couldn’t do it. He had gone from his peak of 30 lbs., and had dwindled to about 7-8 lbs. A week before I had him put down, he was shitting gobs of blood, so he must have had some real bad stuff going on. He was 16-1/2 and the other one made it to 18 and 3 months. But he had a seizure and was in terrible pain. No more pets for me. My heart can’t take another hole. So, I still think of both of them daily, and had them both cremated. Their Cremains are in Urns sitting on my Organ! I wanted to scatter their ashes in the mountains, but my wife prefers to keep them with us. I will never forget watching Corbin’s eyes slowly close after being tranquilized looking at me, before Dr. Death gave him the final shot to his heart and he went limp. I daily feel guilty of killing him, and not trying to take further action to try and see if we could get him healed enough to stay with us a few more years. But either way, I still feel guilty for letting them die on their own, while watching them suffer, and also having my last 2 euthanized. There is no good way, either way, when their end of life comes, because they don’t usually die peacefully in their sleep! I had dreams of them both, soon after they died. Sorry for the long sad story, but with you being a cat lover, I am wondering how you handle parting with them?

[Jim Sutherland]

OK, I’m through with this last one on what Master Charan Singh’s thoughts were on mercy killing 0f our suffering Pets. I really doubt that he ever had a Dog or Cat that loved him.
14. (vii) DESTRUCTION AND CONTROL OF PESTS, MERCY KILLING
Q.579. Master,whatisourpositionregardingsprayingofgardens to prevent insects and so forth from eating or otherwise destroying vegetables and flowers?
A. Brother, some of these things are necessary in ordertoliveinthisworld. Wehavetodrawaline somewhere. If we analyze minutely, we will find that even now, as we are breathing, we are killing many insects. This whole room is filled with insects; as you walk on the ground, you kill many insects; when you drink water, you kill many insects—what you call bacteria, or you may give them any name; but the very air you breathe is filled with souls. So it is impossible to live in this world without killing anything. Onecannotevenbreatheortakeasingle step without doing so. Therefore, saints always advise us to have the very least load that is necessary to live in this world, so we are allowed to take vege- tables, even though they also have souls. Now the
scientists also prove that vegetation contains life.
We cannot help killing insects and rodents by spraying or otherwise protecting a crop; but naturally there is a difference in the degree of karma incurred, just as there is a difference in degree of crime in our worldlylaws. Weshouldnottrytofindajustification for killing nor should we kill unnecessarily. Where we have to, we may, for we have to in order to live and exist in this world. This whole world is full of crime and of creatures killing one another. As you have just heard in the discourse, this whole world is nothing but darkness, and one cannot live without killing. The eating of vegetation and protection of crops is more or less “innocent killing”, as we have to live in this world, and in order to live we have to do all sorts of these things. The main thing is that we
must do the least possible killing for our existence only as much as is absolutely necessary to maintain a healthy body.
Q. 580. This may be a very silly question, but it has troubled many minds. In the lower animal kingdom, which does not have the power to discriminate between what is right and what is wrong, what power has placed in the lion or the tiger, the instinct to kill other helpless animals in order to survive, and why is it so?
A. Brother, this whole world is a field of killing and being killed. You cannot live in this world without killing something. There is a constant struggle for existence, and all creatures are always killing and being killed. That is why all the saints tell us that this world is not worth considering as our permanent residence at all, and we are simply passing through it in order to pay off our karmas, and at the same time trying not to make new ones so that we may not have to come back again. In this world, one is either killing or being killed. So the saints say, “Leave this world and come back to the Lord with us”. We cannot reform this world, and this world will never become a heaven, but will remain at daggers drawn and there always will be killing in this world. Saintsdonotcometoreformthisworld.They just come to take us away from this world. j~At this place Maharaj Ji related in detail how this world is a place of struggle, of good and bad, and how to find peace in this world while doing our worldly duties and attending to our spiritual practice—referring to that as the strong shoes which permit us to go

[Jim Sutherland]

Oppps,…here’s the rest of it.
“ through and walk over the thorns of this world without being affected by them—all of which is mentioned elsewhere, so it is not repeated here]] We should not be concerned with this world. It will continue like this, for it is a place of imperfection and has to remain that way as long as it exists, as I have explained many times. But through the help of the saints, we have the opportunity to detach ourselves
from it and go back into the lap of our Father, the Original Home of Perfect Bliss, never again to return to this field of struggle and killing.
Q.581. Mysonhasaranchandtheyhavealotoftroublewith moles, gophers and so forth getting into the irrigation ditches and theycannotfarmtheground. Whatistheproperprocedurewhen we are not supposed to kill things?
A. Sister, we should try to avoid killing as much as we can, but sometimes we just cannot help it. There is a certain type and amount of killing which you cannot avoid for your existence in this world, but one should not try to justify that killing. You should not go out of your way to kill these things but where you have to do it for your existence, you cannot help it.
Q.582. Ifachildisbornmutilated,paralyzedorterriblydefor- med, and survives, as some children just exist but have no control over their own movements, or some cannot even move, and are bedridden all the time, would mercy-killing be allowed, if it is allowed inthatcountry? Ifyouwereasatsangidoctor,wouldyoukillthat child if mercy-killing were legal?
A. I do not believe in mercy-killing at all, and I think it is not legal anywhere in the world, yet. Though I know little of the law, mercy-killing is not allowed. Mercy-killing is definitely wrong from a spiritual point of view. In mercy-killing, we are trying to take something into our own hands that we think is mercy. If we had to follow such a line of thought, I think half the world would be killed tomorrow. Everybody is suffering; everybody is in agony; everybody is in pain; people are starving; people are diseased; people are unhealthy in this world. That does not mean that we should start killing right and left. If we did, we would have to kill ourselves, too, for we are in agony with ourselves. So the question of mercy-killing does not arise. The Lord knows best when to take life—He gives it and He takes it. Nature always keeps its level. The Lord knows best how and when to kill. People are killed in wars, in storms, in earthquakes and so many otherwaysthatHealonecancontrol. Whyshould wetrytobeHisrivals? Weshouldbehelpfultothe handicapped to the best of our ability and not try to take away their life.
Q.583. Master,ifonefindsananimalorabirdthatisbadly hurt and is in agony, is it wrong to take it out of its misery?
A. Brother, if we start analyzing like this, probably we will have to put an end to three-fourths of the world. (Laughter)Whoisnotinagony? Weshould analyze within ourselves as to whether we are at warwithinourselvesornot. Arewehappyinthis world? Are we even physically or mentally happy to be in this world? If we will just analyze our own self, we will find that everyone of us is most miserable with himself. Everybody is playing to the tune of his own karma, and despite all that, no one likes to die. So, whether human beings or animals or birds, we should try to help them, not put an end to their life. When you go to hospitals you find people are crying in physical pain. Do you think they should all be killed, straight away?
Q.584. No,Imeanananimalthatwasobviouslydying?
A. But, whether man or animal, we do not know whether he is obviously dying or he is getting a new birth. It is for that individual to clear his own karmas. Wehavetohelphim,whetheritismedical aid or whatever is humanly possible. We should give all the help we can, but we should never try to take it in our own hand to do away with his life. We have no right to do so. There is no mercy in killing. We should help to the best of our ability, wherever we can, but still, with our best intentions, in certain situations, we really cannot help. They are paying for their karmas—whatever they have sown, they shall reap. But we have to help them with our best intelligence, capabilities and resources. It is only to the extent that He wants us to succeed that we will beabletohelpthem. Soweshoulddoourbestto
help them and leave the results to Him.
If we start from the point of view of mercy-
killing, as I told you, I do not know how many people we might have to kill. Politicians throw bombs, wiping away humanity, and they also justify that killing. But whether the Lord justifies it or not, remains to be seen. Whether we have done good or bad. He will tell us. We can judge only with our intellect. We may think we have saved many humans by killing a hundred thousand or two hundred
thousand. But these are all justifications for our own weaknesses. We should help, not kill. “

[El]

Euthanize him, and I just let him suffer and die. I can’t help but think, my present ...
Posted by: Jim Sutherland | June 28,

Jim, thank you for sharing. It cleared it up for me why I will never have a pet. I could not deal with these situations and hope you will be ok.

[Sam]

I don’t believe you have full knowledge of what a guru/sat-guru really means as it has been misused and used loosely. Julian Johnson has a book published called the path of the masters. Then there is Ishwar Puri’s videos on youtube and they both go into detail. Highly recommend the book and its chapter in masters.

RS

[manjit]

Hey Sam, great advice!
A book by Julian Johnson you say? Videos by RSSB ex-communicate Ishwar Puri you say?
More detail to be found there about what a satguru is you say?
Okay folks - and I'm looking at you here Mr Hines, the decades old initiate, ex official satsang speaker and multiple official RSSB literature author - go and check these sources out and find out what a satguru really is, as defined by these rare and unknown sources, then come back and discuss gurus.
Banging on about gurus for decades without even knowing how they are defined in the most published rs book of all time, you numb nuts.

[Jim Sutherland]

https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/1352ce9d-073e-47fc-817a-4433fefc6e00/audio

This is a Podcast taken from my discussions here, regarding dealing with my Cats, Euthanization, or following Charan Singh’s advice to just let them die with out euthanizing them.
I invite a new fresh discussion about Satsangis deal with these agonizing challenges.
As for me, I still feel guilty of both ways I went.

Are there any Cat or Dog owners here, who are willing to share how you have either dealt with these decisions, or how you will, when your time vines to choose, if you now have Pets that you have cared for, and loved fir many years?