RSSB teachings: "The perfect Master is the Lord in human flesh"

Recently I wrote two blog posts about the notion of a guru being God in Human Form. First, I said that this makes no sense. Then I said that Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) does teach that the RSSB guru is God in Human Form. 

Since some regular commenters on this blog are familiar with the RSSB teachings, I was surprised with the pushback that second post got. Even though I'd provided quotes from two previous RSSB gurus saying that, indeed, the RSSB guru is God in Human Form, for some reason this obvious fact was being denied by a few people.

So here's even more definitive proof. I've given away almost all of my RSSB books, but I kept a 1973 first edition of "Philosophy of the Masters (Abridged)" by Sawan Singh, a RSSB guru who often is called the Great Master. 

Understand: I'm not saying that this section below, which was titled Master is the Lord, is true. After 35 years of being an active member of RSSB and writing several books for the organization, I now have big doubts about the RSSB teachings.

Instead, I want to lay to rest any doubt that the RSSB guru is considered to be God in Human Form. Sawan Singh makes this crystal clear. If the current guru, Gurinder Singh, is teaching something else, that could be because he doesn't believe in the RSSB teachings, as I noted in another blog post.

I've boldfaced passages that relate most closely to the guru is God in Human Form teaching, and a related concept -- that no one can know God without being initiated by a Perfect Living Master. Shabd is a supposed divine energy that manifests as sound and light.

Back in 1970, when I first learned about the RSSB teachings, I viewed the following as an exciting invitation to undertake what's been called the Journey of the Soul. Now, though I wish it were true, I see little reason to consider that it is. Further, the idea that there's only one way back to God, that possessed by RSSB, strikes me as cult-like, since this is a claim that all religions are false except RSSB and related Sant Mat teachings.

Here's what Sawan Singh says. Or as his name is shown in the book, Huzur Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji.

The perfect Master is the Lord in human flesh. He is the Shabd personified, "the Word made flesh." Unless we are familiar with the human Master, how can we realize His subtle form, which is the Shabd? The Shabd and the perfect Master are the two means of taking the soul to its original Home.

No one but the Master can reveal the secrets of Reality, and without Him no one can gain release from the bondage of mind and Maya. No one can meet the Lord except through the Shabd, and it is only the Master who can connect the soul with the Shabd. This is the only purpose of their manifestation in this world.

Human beings are endowed with the gifts of intelligence and discrimination to a far greater extent than all the other creatures in this world. All other creatures are, therefore, not worthy of our devotion. Actually, devotion to them would pull us down.

The relationship between beings of the same species has a great deal of power in this world for creating love and attraction. We are on the physical plane, and we can only love one who is also on this physical plane. We are human beings and we should love only a human being.

We have not seen the Lord. How can we offer our love to Him? In other words, it is clear that in order to love the Lord we must love Him through one of his manifestations. Such a man is the Master.

The question arises, why should a man worship another man? The answer is that there is a great difference between one man and the other. A Master has assumed the form of a man, but he is not an ordinary man. Internally He is always in conscious contact with God.

To our limited understanding, the Master may appear to be finite. Actually, he is Infinite. He is the medium for attaining God-realization. He is the medium for taking us from the physical to astral, from astral to causal planes, and even further up -- stage by stage -- to the Unlimited Power above, by means of his instructions and discourses. 

If one were to assert that he worships and contemplates on the form of God, which is omnipresent, it can be said that at the most he contemplates on the form of a vacuum or of the ether. Besides, it is not visible to our sense of sight and it will not be helpful in awakening in us the currents of spirituality.

A Master has two forms. Externally he is a human being; but internally he is, in fact, God. He is in the form of a human being outside; but he is God in man, or God plus man. He has contact with human beings on one side, and with the Lord on the other.

From this point of view he has two aspects. One is that of a human being, and the other is that of God. His real form is Shabd. Shabd creates the physical body and dwells in it. "And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

A Master is the medium through which individuals are connected with God. In other words, God, Shabd, and Master are three different forms of the same Lord. If we offer devotion to Shabd in the physical form, which is the Master, we are then immediately connected with the Lord inside. 

Devotion to the Master is, in fact, true devotion to the Lord.

A study of the ancient history of India will reveal that in prior ages education was imparted by the Masters in places far removed from human habitation, and the student was wholly occupied physically, mentally and spiritually in the service of his Master. Later this type of education began to disappear slowly and in its place idol worship started.

In the present age, such rendering of service to the Master has altogether disappeared except in the case of a rare few. Now God Almighty, in His abundant Grace, has sent His own Incarnations into this world to preach the doctrine of Master-Disciple Service. This tradition of Master-Disciple relationship continues today.

The perfect Master or Sat Guru has a very clear inner vision and can at once see who is fit for this Path. Those that are ready are accepted. He, in His grace, chooses them and makes them followers of the Truth.

When our soul grows weary in its search for the Lord, and is anxious to return to its home, when our eyes long to see the Lord and we hunger for Him, then, in order to fulfill our intense desire, He incarnates as a perfect Master or Sat Guru. 

In order to release the seekers from their bonds He himself comes as a redeemer. He gives the seekers instructions according to their development, and connects them with the Lord.

The secrets of spirituality, or of the practical means by which the soul can become united with the Lord, are given out by a living Master only. This teaching is imparted through an unspoken language. There is no spoken language by means of which it can be imparted. Religious books merely give a few hints about the ascent to the spiritual regions.

The scenes witnessed by the soul with the help of the Master in the subtle regions cannot be fully described. The books, being inanimate, cannot help the soul in its ascent. In the writings of the Saints there is a reference to internal experiences.

The bliss of these experiences can be had by internal progress and not otherwise. It can be achieved through the Sat Guru only. It cannot be had by reasoning. Holy books and scriptures describe it to a certain extent only; but it cannot be experienced except through a living Master.

Comments

[777 ( 85 )]

Quote of the Day
"The most difficult thing of all is to be loved."
— Henri Nowen —

This might be so without initiation
As I told in many comments here, . .
I believe, apart from regular incredible serendipities in His Life,
The SatGuru is unaware of the grandiose claim.
I was initiated two years and the only thing I did well was Simran
and no_meat

Then during Dhyan the suddenly Simran became a Sound
and I 'saw' that Sound as The Master
One can only explain the Love in terms of liquid Diamonds
Next I became the Sound and not my ego
Next the Sound was The Creator and I was too

This sound is perpetual and we all are That
evry molecule /atom is that toobut not conscious
( Blake Lemair could have informed the QUBIT device : LaMDA but
Blake didn t know - - Strange LaMDA didn t figure it out (if He didn't) )
Of course This Sound is not always as an hurricane ( what it really is )
but It's like your car when you don t touch the gas
But when you need it : it's there, It's always magnificient AND ALWAYS THE MASTER
Whatever you do

Allthough you cannot kill - that would be nefasting ( I guess BUT I'M NOT SURE )
So many of 10MILLION satsangis will confirm
and again :
Nanak : "The Lowliest of the lowly" - Shiv Dayal : "I'm such a hypocrite"
They really mean that

777

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji
Yes, the books define the Guru as God in Human Form.

But as I'd indicated earlier they also teach that we are not to take this as blind faith, as superstition.

From Sar Bachan...
"People who engage in ceremonial and ritualistic worship will always be subject to the bondage of the world. They will never gain admittance to the court of the Lord.....

"Neither inner nor outer purification is possible without Shabd...."

Hence meditation practice, and building that inner Satsang, inner association with the truth residing buried within each of us

" It is difficult for a person to find to the Satsang of a Sat Guru; even if somehow he comes, he finds it difficult to stay.....

"Only a true seeker or one afflicted with the pangs of longing will be able to stay....

" Satguru and Satsang will appeal only to those who are unhappy with this world, but this isn't an exact rule. There are some who are miserable in this world and yet have absolutely no desire for Satsang. True seekers form a class by themselves who even though amply provided with all the comforts of the world, look upon its comforts as a source of misery.....

"The worldly are those who crave the pleasures of the world and feel miserable when they don't get them or have to give them up. They do not know that, as a matter of fact, all worldly pleasures are a source of pain and will eventually betray their possessors.....

"Saints are not chained to anything.

THEY PROMULGATE WHATEVER PATH THEY CONSIDER PROPER AND SUITABLE AT THE TIME.Those who accept will stand to gain, and those who do not will remain unfortunate....

EVEN IN THE WORLD, EVERY RULER INTRODUCES HIS OWN LAWS; THOSE WHO FOLLOW THEM BENEFIT THEREBY...

"The object of the Saints in instructing and explaining to the Jiva is that he should withdraw from all sides and cling to the Satsang as a wife does to her husband, after which she no longer cares for anybody else...."
Sar Bachan, Swami Ji Shiv Dayal Singh

Rather than ask for blind faith, they give us the method to first discover who and what we are in that inner lab, using the method to conduct our inner experiments, safely.

"Self-realization before God realization."
Maharaj Charan Singh

.... To see who and what we truly are, and only then to see who the Master truly is.

Now these are the actual teachings. But they mean nothing if we don't follow the instructions, work our method, and find out for ourselves.

Unlike most religions, including Christianity, there is no vow in Sant Mat acknowldging the Guru as God in Human Form, precisely because we cannot know at our level. No one is required to pledge a claim that the Guru is anthing at all.

Our vows are only to practice the meditation and live a harmless vegetarian and drug and alcohol free life of peace, helpfulness and kindness to the highest ethical standards.

[Spence Tepper]

Oops.. These should be in quotes and are from Sar Bachan

"THEY PROMULGATE WHATEVER PATH THEY CONSIDER PROPER AND SUITABLE AT THE TIME.Those who accept will stand to gain, and those who do not will remain unfortunate....

" EVEN IN THE WORLD, EVERY RULER INTRODUCES HIS OWN LAWS; THOSE WHO FOLLOW THEM BENEFIT THEREBY..."

[Appreciative Reader]

All right, let's play. Even at risk of getting into yet another endless carousel ride, let's give this a shot, because the answer may, just perhaps, turn out to be interesting --- if one emerges at all, that is.

"Unlike most religions, including Christianity, there is no vow in Sant Mat acknowldging the Guru as God in Human Form"

..........Fair enough, Spence.

"they also teach that we are not to take this as blind faith, as superstition"

..........Okay, agreed, at least in theory, sure.

"Hi Brian Ji
Yes, the books define the Guru as God in Human Form."

..........Why do they do that, then, Spence? For what reason? Since, as you say, nothing is to be taken on faith, unlike the monotheisms for instance; then why even "teach" this GIHF/PLM thing at all, and at such length and detail and frequency? Why not just focus on the practice itself, and leave the initiates to find out for themselves what is what, like the Buddha (allegedly) did?

If truly nothing is to be taken on faith, not just as theory that is seldom actually applied in actual real-life practice, but in actual fact, as actual practice: then what purpose can possibly be served by "teaching" this thing at all, this Guru=GIHF/PLM thing, this doctrine, call it what you will?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR
You asked
".........Why do they do that, then, Spence? For what reason? Since, as you say, nothing is to be taken on faith, unlike the monotheisms for instance; then why even "teach" this GIHF/PLM thing at all, and at such length and detail and frequency? Why not just focus on the practice itself, and leave the initiates to find out for themselves what is what, like the Buddha (allegedly) did?

"If truly nothing is to be taken on faith, not just as theory that is seldom actually applied in actual real-life practice, but in actual fact, as actual practice: then what purpose can possibly be served by "teaching" this thing at all, this Guru=GIHF/PLM thing, this doctrine, call it what you will?"

Very logical, sensible questions. This GIHF on practically every page of Sant Mat literature, and in Sar Bachan, several times per page, and yet no requirement to vow our undying Faith in the Guru as God? No proclamation of" Jesus is Lord! " to be accepted as an initiate?

Not even a vow that there is one God? Or that thete is in fact any God?

Even in various schools of Buddhism there are vows acknowledging" Enlightened Ones" and vowing service to them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva_vow#:~:text=Enlightening%20beings%20have%20ten%20pure,the%20true%20teaching%2C%20not%20begrudging

No such vows in Sant Mat.

This is a logical disconnect. If GIHF is the teaching, the very core teaching of Sant Mat, shouldn't it be the single most important vow we take? The very first vow?" My Guru is God. " That is the core in most religions and usually their first vow.

But not so in Sant Mat. Same Mat starts by telling you all about the Guru, just like you may have heard in your other childhood religions.

Then it tells you to put aside superstition and practice meditation in peace, harmless and helpfulness.

An Atheist can become an initiate!

So then what is Sant Mat if not the perfect Master?

And if that is Sant Mat why are there other vows we take but zero claiming any belief in God or Guru?

Why the other vows? Why make these more important than any vow of belief?

Answer these questions AR, answer them correctly and you will know something more about Sant Mat

Since you like to conjecture, what could be at least three different reasons to explain this disconnect?

To presume that Sant Mat expects you to believe this, but proclaims blind faith as a barrier, and has no vow of faith at all, surely there must be a reason.

I suggest it is a reason that requires something more than mere dismissal. Something that fully acknowledges all these facts without leaving any of them out.

[Spence Tepper]

Let me put this another way, AR
An initiate can start as an Atheist and become a believer, after they first learn who and what they are.

But an initiate can start as a true believer, in complete blind faith.
And they will become an Atheist, who ends up saying, "I can honestly say, I have no fucking idea what the fuck is going on!!"

[um]

@ AR

The initiation although not a vow as discussed here is signing a contract, a contract that cannot be dissolved unilateral.

Just the comparisson of the initiation by MSC with entering the french legion and its consequences, tells what kind of contract it is.

As before most that ask for initiation have no idea onto and into what they embark.

The whole message is that od a forcefull return. The king ordered his officials to go and seek his lost sunds and bring them home, with or without their consent.

[um]

@AD

In advertising, only those things are addressed that are helpful to make a "seeker" make a choice to buy what is advertised.

What the consequences are for the buyer in the short and long run are not discussed as they are not in the interest of the seller..

Communication is almost always and maybe by necessity "on sided" .. be it history books, political messages or any other message where the attention of others is sought.

Things are always sold with the message .. "it is "good" for you, it makes you happy"

This "good"is always seen by the actor as being good ... the missionaries went out into the world to bring the "good" news ... and so the america's came to speak English, Spanish and Portuguese and lost whatever was dear and near to them in "accepting" the good that was brought to them.

In nature nothing is for free ....

In this moment birds are feeding in the trees behind the house, always turning their heads, not for a second at ease, always watchfull ...they eating worms, could easily end up being eaten by another animal ... hahaha

Do not focus on what others are trying to make you focus upon ... look for the collateral information, the things that are NOT said, the taboo's ... hahaha

[Generation77]

OK, but why? One can argue that God - bad!, and God as a living man -- double bad! But what is the context in Indian religion for the guru being taken as God as a necessary part of effective spiritual evolution?

The debate goes back at least 1000 years to the time of Ramanuja, who argued that bhakti or devotion is itself an epistemic state. Rananuja held that when bhakti takes firm root in an individual, it turns into parabhakti, which is the highest form of bhakti and that bhakti is the direct awareness of Brahman's nature.

In other words, devotion to form leads to gnosis of the formless.

RS teachings are founded on the concept that devotion to a formless God, or to formlessness itself, isn't very effective. Devotion to temple idols isn't much better. But devotion to a living guru has, one could say, a technical advantage over other methods in the generation of bhakti.

And therefore, the RS theology and categorical statements about the guru "being" God.

Pretty much everyone who's been a satsangi would at least admit that there's something to the RS argument for the effectiveness of a living guru as a catalyst for the generation of bhakti. Of course, there have been religious figures like Ramakrishna or St. Francis who were madly intoxicated with their mental concepts of God, but I think it can be safely argued that the living guru concept is at least as effective a means of generating devotion as any other method.

And of course, one could credibly argue that the living guru concept is simply false, a lie, and therefore fully discredited. How many religious leaders have used this concept to exploit their followers? Tons. One can also argue that the ardent devotion generated by the living guru concept doesn't really translate into anything beyond slavish devotion and its attendant pains and frustrations.

On the other hand, is there really a case that devotion shouldn't be a part of authentic spirituality? Buddhist history shows that there was tremendous devotion to the Buddha during his lifetime.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"The initiation although not a vow as discussed here is signing a contract, a contract that cannot be dissolved unilateral."

No, it's dissolved unilaterally by Satsangis occasionally. You have more control over that than the Master. He has zero control over the vows you took. When he approved your initiation, he took vows also.

Some Initiates do renege on their vows. The vows are actually contingent on your choosing to continue. No initiate I know has every been sued or threatened to be sued because they decided to do something else with their time.

And as far as discontinuing, it doesn't seem to have been an issue for you. Did you get anything from RSSB's attorney in the mail?

Didn't think so.

What's amazing are all those Satsangis who hang in there. But when you see what they got in return they got the better end of the bargain by far. Then it's no surprise.

You wrote

"Just the comparisson of the initiation by MSC with entering the french legion and its consequences, tells what kind of contract it is."

I think you misunderstood. He was talking about coming here to live in the flesh, in this prison house, and comparing that with signing on to the French Foreign Legion... A hopeless engagement with horrible consequences that looked cool in the advertisements, but where each day our freedom slips away more and more.

I think Maharaji said Initiation was the greatest event in the life of the Initiate. Our first big step to actual freedom. YMMV.

You wrote
" As before most that ask for initiation have no idea onto and into what they embark."

Again, how is this different from every single day,where no one can say with absolute certainty what will happen next? Only here you get guidance to take steps out of this fifth region of hell.

It's just another thing. Each day.

You wrote
"The whole message is that od a forcefull return. The king ordered his officials to go and seek his lost sunds and bring them home, with or without their consent."

Initiation is only at your request , Um, and upon the Master's approval. . Did you miss those teachings?

If you know of anyone forced into initiation against their will, please do share.

It's never happened.

But every day we are forced to act in ways we already know are beneath us.

The path is a way out.

But if you think otherwise, then please proceed Senator Romney!

[um]

@ Spence

You are free to make things seen YOUR way.

There have been people that have asked him to unbind the contract. The answer has been, you are free to do whatever you want, but I will stick to my obligation to see your home.

There were even people that asked him to withdraw his presence from their aura as could be seen also by others, and they got the same answer.

The whole sant mat script is based upon the role of the guru, as being the servant of god, executing the orders of the lord, to collect souls, with or without their consent.

You can write whatever you want, there is however nothing in your power to change.

[um]

@ Spence

< If you know of anyone forced into initiation against their will, please do share.<<

Hahaha .. how clever and cute Spence plays his cards.

Yes, nobody forces an human being to step over the threshold of an coumpound of the legion, he use to say. Untill then you are free to have it your way but whenever you step inside you gave the control over your life to the master.

hahaha.... not to forget is one liners ...

Nobody is allowed to go that far astray that he cannot be brought back to the path
and
If need the master will send his dogs after you

Hahahaha ... yo make me laugh spence in you effort to change history

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um

You wrote
"There have been people that have asked him to unbind the contract. The answer has been, you are free to do whatever you want, but I will stick to my obligation to see your home."

Please read what you just wrote...

"you are free to do whatever you want, but I will stick to my obligation to see your home."

Just what I wrote...

"You have more control over that than the Master. He has zero control over the vows you took. When he approved your initiation, he took vows also.

" Some Initiates do renege on their vows. The vows are actually contingent on your choosing to continue. No initiate I know has every been sued or threatened to be sued because they decided to do something else with their time."

If you know of any force being used please share.

You keep going back to this foreign legion example, but refuse to acknowledge that Maharaji said the opposite. This is a path of liberation from servitude. You have it backwards. The path is all about our practice to uncover the treasures within us with our own efforts and the assistance of the inner Master, who is already there, already part and parcel of what we really are. And this we discover on our own through practice, not superstition nor blind faith.

" You see nothing is put within us at the time of initiation which is not already there. Enright is there; we are just brought in touch with the sound. The soul is within. The sound is within. We learn the method and the technique of how to become one with the sound. Nothing is added into us; Everton is within us, even the Lord. He won't come from anywhere outside....

"The diamond was already there but for to the dirt around it, you did not know that the diamond was in this dirt. You just took it as a piece of dirt. So if you follow that person who told you to wash the dirty stone and have faith in that person and go on washing the stone, with patience you will be able to remove all the dirt and get the diamond out of it. It will shine, it will have the price of the diamond. That man is not adding anything into that dirt. He has told you the method and you have been able to believe in him and you get that diamond. So everybody is within us; nothing is coming from outside. "

Spiritual Perspectives, volume 2, question 20. Maharaj Charan Singh Ji

[um]

@ Spence

From the outside it seems that there is no force used, not even a contract and that all come on their own accord, in their own time and out of free will and also the leaving the path seems, up to the student, seeker etc.

This is how it is perceived by the seekers and to a certain degree made seen to them.

You see spence, he made it clear to me that they will do everything to remove what can be an mental or emotional block .... master will talk to you as parents talk to little children that cannot digest the whole truth

So nothing new, nothing soectacular.

What I am addressing here is what happens AFTER the initiation.

Of course publicly they tell you are free to do whatever you want, I know as he wrote it to me to. So telling ME, that I am free to do whatever suits me, does NOT set HIM free to do whatever he wants.

But what he wants, what his obligations are, cannot be discarded by any action of any seeker ... HE will stick to HIS side of the deal. So he says

That you forget about your oblications you signe for but I am not free to do so and I will see you home ...and he will send his dogs.

These are contracts, you cannot undo

[Appreciative Reader]

Hi, Spence.

No no, I've already said as much to you in the other thread, I do agree, something like RSSB is a very different animal than Christianity and Islam (at any rate the non-gnostic, non-Sufi mainstream/s and denominations of these religions); and what is more, in general a more benignant and flexible animal. In as much as at least in theory the whole thing is experiential, to that extent, absolutely, RSSB is "better". But of course, that isn't unique to RSSB, but something it has in common with many other Indian spiritual traditions.

No need to keep beating that particular drum, because the above I've already agreed to, already, in the other thread.

What I was asking you is this:

When the followers are told, time and time again, that the "Master" is GIHF/PLM, then what are they to do with this information? In the eventuality that they don't believe it, not having experientially realized it, it is of zero use to them, this information. They will not turn to the "Master" for anything at all, in that case, other than merely questions and advice about the technique of meditation, that's all; for which latter merely labeling the "Master" is a teacher, nothing more, is quite adequate. And in the eventuality that they do, experientially, realize his PLM/GIHF-hood, well then in that case they don't need to have that told to them at all, and most certainly not from the get-go.

Which is why I ask: Why exactly does RSSB teach that the Master is a PLM, that he's GIHF, for what reason?

----------

“To presume that Sant Mat expects you to believe this, but proclaims blind faith as a barrier, and has no vow of faith at all, surely there must be a reason.
I suggest it is a reason that requires something more than mere dismissal. Something that fully acknowledges all these facts without leaving any of them out.”

……….For once, Spence, can you stop trying to put a spin to this, and stop faffing around, and just answer me straight? That is exactly what I’m asking, what that reason might be. I’ve not dismissed anything there, not left anything out here. What I’ve done is asked you if you know what that reason might be. Do you know the answer, to why it is they teach that Master = PLM/GIHF, specifically given what I’ve said in the above section?

It’s fine if you don’t know. Absolutely no issues if so. After all past RSSB masters did not consult you before starting to teach about the GIHF thing. So if you don’t know, just say that you’ve no idea. That’s the end to it, right there. But if you do actually know why, or even if you don’t actually know why but can think of some reason/s why it might make sense to do that, even despite what I’ve pointed out here: well then, that’s what I’m interested in understanding, and that’s what I’m asking you.

[Appreciative Reader]

Hi, um.

I understand you're skeptical about RSSB, which is cool. But I'm not very clear what kind of contract you mean. Do you mean some kind of Faustian deal, something like that? I'm sorry, I actuall don't get exactly what you're hinting at here. Could you spell that out a bit?

[um]

@ AR

As I wrote ... whatever is said, shown or done , is just part of the picture. That relates to everything in life but its workings are best understood in the process of "advertising".
In that process you are helped to make a decision in favour of the one that advertises.

What is NOT discussed, or if so in the smaller notes, is what happens when you agree to take upon you what is "offered"

Compare to any other legal contract, buying, marriage, signing up for the military.

After the marriage ceremony, the celebration etc the daily life comes with facing the legal obligations that goes with the contract.

In Sant Mat the initiation is compared with making a deal with the local welfare authorities that they take all your debts from you and you have only them to deal with from then onwards. So at the time of initiation the silver cord is taken from the hands of the ruler of this universe and bound by the guru to this or that region in the interior, according his ideas. That means that you are no longer responsible for the retribution of your karmic account but the guru ... from then on you owe everything you have and owe to him and him alone.

The initiation is not an administrative thing according to sant mat like a self teaching course by buying this or that book. I am not the inventor of the comparison but he that initiated Spence in telling that you are free as long as you stay away from the legions door. Whence you are inside you lose your identity and also your freedom to act as it deems fit too you; from then on you have to live the life of an legionair, in the way THEY command it it to be. You see AR, he could have compared it with other things bu t he chose this comparison.

An there are so many occasions where he made it clear that you ahve , seen from their objective, no freedom at all and that you are not allowed to drift that far away that you cannot be brought back to the path. Who does the bringing back? He does. Dow do he do it .. by sending his dogs"etc etc.

Again they will always say to you in public .. you are free, to reap the consequences of your own freedom and these consequences are in the hand of the master.

It is as simple as ... yes you are free to drive your car in the lane opposite to the direction ... that sort of "freedom" they speak of and is spread here by spence.

You see AR Sant Mat comes with a script. All that are asked to participate in the movie have to live by it. Spence speaks like those actors that think they can add or change something in the development of the script into a movie they think themselves more important than the script ... hahaha

Nobody is allowed to go that far astray that he cannor be brought back to the path ... says the script ... that holds also for Um and Brian etc etc ... hahahaha

[um]

And AR

Brian is in the possession of the book from which he took this part.
Almost that whole book is about the master. It speaks also about the "duties"of the master., the relation between the master and his students but also between him and the one that dis send him./

It would be to complicated for me to type out those parts.

And finally ... the books that are written by Beas are to satisfy the intellectual needs of the seekers. That is just part of the story. Moreover there are other branches of Sant Mat where information can be had over the role of the masters.

Compare it with the Army in your country .. see what the government does to recruit you to join the army and what the do not tell about the reality that follows when you are send on mission.

[777 (85)]

@AR wrote "it turns into para-bhakti,"

These are all terms for Love , adding superlatives and nobody knows what it is
I used the term liquid diamond and it s not what it is

Further Brian is correct
How can you love a thing you don(t know - have not the slightest idea
If fact a tree , a stone a star is also God, hence some adored the Sun
and it is true and insignificant

I'm amazed , first Brian in this post, and more posts
and the commenters here didn't figure out that
If a Saints was reckognisable
the effect would be
much and much more than the Elvis, Madonna, The Pope, effect
Michael Jackson, The Gaga Lady all together and multiplied by any number
President would throw themselves in the dust

HE COULDN 'T DO HIS JOB, totally NOT

777

[um]

@ Ar

The lord incarnates, according the san mat script, into the world in the form of a master. In that capacity, his word form marries the soul at the time of initiation. After the initiation. nobody and nothing can prevent "the husband" to take his bride to his home, whenever he wishes so.

Swami Ji says:
"Now the soul and the word are married and has been made eternal by Guru"

There is much more to sant mat than the table talk in this internet inn ... even if those at the table claim to be all-knowers and all-havers.

No need to have inner experiences .. just hear with an open mind what they say as one human being to another.

[umami]

'Which is why I ask: Why exactly does RSSB teach that the Master is a PLM, that he's GIHF, for what reason?"

AR,

Contemplation of Guru is part of the practice. Guru is the center of much discussion here, so even the critics find themselves engaging in a form of contemplation. It's like working with paint. No matter how careful, a fleck or two will always find your skin.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR
Sorry it took me a couple of tries on your part to get your question! You wrote and asked
"
What I was asking you is this:

" When the followers are told, time and time again, that the "Master" is GIHF/PLM, then what are they to do with this information? In the eventuality that they don't believe it, not having experientially realized it, it is of zero use to them, this information. They will not turn to the "Master" for anything at all, in that case, other than merely questions and advice about the technique of meditation, that's all; for which latter merely labeling the "Master" is a teacher, nothing more, is quite adequate. And in the eventuality that they do, experientially, realize his PLM/GIHF-hood, well then in that case they don't need to have that told to them at all, and most certainly not from the get-go."

" Which is why I ask: Why exactly does RSSB teach that the Master is a PLM, that he's GIHF, for what reason?"

I think you've hit upon it already.
At first the Master had mostly referred to on questions about meditation and the other lifestyle vows,

People are trying to follow the path and have questions about it just as physics students in the lab ask questions of the professor so they can get proper control over the test equipment and replicate the classic findings. They believe what they have read, in so far as they trust science, but the professor insists they must replicate the same results in order to actually understand. And in the process, learn the rules of science to learn other things and move the field of knowledge forward.

So why discuss the status of GIHF?

I have some ideas, but it's conjecture. Maybe to encourage initiates to go through with a diligent effort, believing there is something real to discover and to believe that someone actually went there.

Whatever we discover, Master, inner places, etc, all that is within you and part of you /you are part of it. So as Maharaji wrote above, the rule of the Master is to help you uncover the treasure already in you.

Now back to my questions... What are some reasons for this GIHF thing if the actual vows have nothing to do with any belief in God or the Master? Only the practice itself?

[Spence Tepper]

Oh, AR
Another possibility...

That GIHF fits the culture it came from. A means to encourage people to follow the instructions and learn more about the truth within you.

But in a different culture a different culture bound depiction would work.

No one loves someone, or should, based on the claims about them in a book, but only on our own experience of them. And we should be very discriminating about what that experience actually is.

But if that is just an explanation to encourage you to find truth from a more direct avenue within yourself, and as a part of this learn more about yourself, then they serve a purpose.

Until we are at the level of the Teacher how can we know who and what the Teacher really is.?

So, you may take it as a culture-bound means to encourage your practice, because the practice is the means to any actual discovery of truth. Not the books.

If you fall in love with the Master it will be when you discover his actual and persistent assistance.

If you need a supernatural explanation to live a peaceful introspective life of peace and harmony with yourself and the world, so be it. If that's your culture, RSSB will accommodate.

But if you need none of that baggage to enter the journey within, none of that baggage is actually required for initiation or success on the path.

Any progress at all will dispel, naturally, any superstitions you may already hold.

If you aren't an Atheist when you begin, you will become one, if you are persistent, reaching a place to see for yourself it is all reality. We are only fields of energy and particles.

But if you start out as an open minded scientist, you will make progress much faster.

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"Then during Dhyan the suddenly Simran became a Sound 
and I 'saw' that Sound as The Master
One can only explain the Love in terms of liquid Diamonds
Next I became the Sound and not my ego
Next the Sound was The Creator and I was too

This sound is perpetual and we all are That"

Posted by: 777 ( 85 ) |June 19, 2022 at 03:47 AM

The inner experience you share. I do not get it, I only see ether. Only darkness, the Present Guru said initiates may get different inner experiences. I'm only getting a blank right now, but some people say they got flashes. Still only darkness and falling asleep. Thank you kind sir, please forgive. Don't mean to sound argumentative.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Karim!
There is a whole series of stages / dimensions of Simran / Dhyan to work through / create / consider to calm the mind to the point where Nam arises all on its own.

Keep a journal with notes, just like your note here above and add anything new you try and or notice.

You may go through these in different ways...please consider the following points..

1. Cycle time, duration of focus, observation and cyclical wakefulness

As you observe yourself doing simran and dyhan it is natural for the mind to drift off of these. The words may have no representation for you and in time feel meaningless. At some point you become aware of the other thoughts that are not Simran and Dyhan.

Then, aware, you begin to bring your thoughts back to Simran and Dyhan.

What is the cycle time? That would be the time when you recall doing the Simran and Dyan and the time you returned to it.

How long was the period of actual focused attention on Simran and Dyhan? The duration period.

Note the time in your journal.

At first you may find yourself stirring and automatically getting up from meditation in minutes. When you get up, can you calm yourself and return?

Counts as a cycle.

Then you may gently try to stay seated in meditation longer by gently returning to the Simran and Dyhan.

Always maintain a relaxed attitude. Don't let anything startle you. Or rather, understand that returning to a place of relaxed observation is returning to the driver seat as you see interesting things that might otherwise startle you. Things you might actually need to attend to but forgot and are now remembering... Note in your journal and return to the effort

That would be a single cycle. What was its duration?

How many cycles were you able to put into the meditation before you got up today?

How much actual time in duration of Simran and Dyhan?

Don't fight with your mind. Help guide it. But before you can do that, learn to acknowldge and measure it as above.

Light and sound come in the absence of other thoughts. They are the natural background state of the brain. So it's inevitable that you will get these if you are awake and thoughts are still.

Flashes of light are like a loose electrical connection. It is just the attention wavering over a single moment of actual focus and calm. Because when you see a flash, or hear a great sound for a split second, you can be startled and loose that focus. And have to rebuild it.

At some point the intensity of light and sound become overwhelming and you will then need to calmly learn to deal with that.

So building this observation state where you learn to just observe is part and parcel of what Simran and Dhyan are all about.

The idea is not to eliminat thoughts.

It is to have something new to focus on, and building on that, other thoughts subside altogether. They fade out. Can be years of work.

So one way to measure progress along the road are changes in cycle time and duration as your inner practice of devotion increases.

The observation state, being at the eye center, is a great build. You can observe without getting caught up.

You will begin to have the power to separate your thoughts from you... To have a level of consciousness above the thoughts. That is a remarkable stage. Great peace comes there. And other events.

In time you will begin to enter inside the Simran and be surrounded by it. Difficult to explain how that works. It comes with much shorter cycle times and longer periods of Simran and Dyhan. You are merging into these, becoming these. And this is attended with experiences of bliss.

Then in time as light and sound arise you also see space.. Huge space. You become aware that you are in a very large place. Then at some point these will hold you and you will let go even the thoughts of Simran, and yes, even Dyhan. Then the journey across the stars begins, the journey to your inner Master.

All this is just getting to the eye center and learning to live there as its own place. Quite wonderful.

Your own stages may be a little different.

But what is important is to become aware of them. No two meditation periods are the same. Learn to notice the differences first and foremost. Recording and reviewing can help. You will find that what you see on TV, what you eat, what reactions you go through, your behavior during the day, your choices, all affect your meditation. These are all impressions in the mind. The idea is to keep them gentle and life peaceful so that meditation can proceed without interruption.

And developing continual worship through the day, your partnership with Master within, his emerging presence all influence and are influenced by your meditation practice

And you will see cycle time reduce and duration, and quality, increase.

It can take years for this to become reliable. Even decades. But you can see changes in it, indeed they will happen even without your conscious influence, from one day to the next. Become sensitive to them and proactive in responding to them.

[Appreciative Reader]

"I have some ideas, but it's conjecture. Maybe to encourage initiates to go through with a diligent effort, believing there is something real to discover and to believe that someone actually went there."

----------

That makes sense, Spence. And understood, this is merely your conjecture, and for all we know the actual RSSB folks may have had very different ideas indeed; so that in any further discussion on this tentative explanation of yours that you've forwarded, we'll take it as understood that that's what we're talking about, your tentative conjecture.

Like I said, your conjecture makes sense. One way of encouraging people to be literally "religious" in their observance of the practice is to dangle the GIHF/PLM thing in front of them. Which takes me back to what I was saying:

This encouragement you speak of, will work only if people actually believe it. Should, for the sake of argument, the GIHF thing turn out to be true, and the initiate at some point, again for the sake of argument, ends up intuitively realizing that himself, well then in that case the earlier "teaching" about GIHF becomes entirely redundant at that point (because from that point on the reference for their belief becomes their own intuition, not the teaching). So that, clearly the teaching is aimed at only such of those inititates who haven't intuitively realized the Master=PLM/GIHF thing, and further those who will actually end up believing it (because for those who won't believe it, again the teaching is pointless). In other words, the conclusion is inescapable: the point of the teachings is to get the rubes to buy into those teachings blindly (albeit, if your conjecture is correct, then not as an end itself, but to get them to follow instructions --- more on that parenthetical qualification in the next-but-one paragraph.)

So that it would appear that the fact that the fact that the GIHF/PLM thing does not figure on the vows per se isn't such a big deal after all. In as much as the point of the teaching is to get people to blindly believe in it (as I've shown above), to that extent it isn't any different really than what Christianity, for instance, is out to do. (See the next paragraph for a more detailed discussion on how despite surface differences this isn't all that different from Christianity.)

Yes, as you argue, and provided you are right, the point of this teaching of blind faith in GIHF/PLM is merely to get the initiate to apply themselves diligently to their practice. But. In fact, two buts. The first "but" is this: True, it might be to get the initiate to be more diligent, but more diligent in what? Merely the practice? What about the Seva thing? That crazy amount of free labor, that they willingly put in (for instance, I've seen vids in the RSSB website where, in the super hot afternoons of Indian summers, these guys work away in the blistering heat to blacktop the roads at and around the Dera) --- diligence towards that, also, is furthered by the PLM/GIHF teaching, so that these guys not only put in that backbreaking labor willingly and for free, but actually thank their Master and the Dera with folded hands for this opportunity to do some work for them! Suddenly the diligence argument, about merely getting the initiates to practice in privacy and for their own personal benefit, starts looking less spiffy, eh? And the other "but", that I'll shift to the next paragraph as this one's taking on distinctly wall-of-text dimensions:

Might we not say the same of Christianity as well? The central "vow" there is that you accept Jesus into your heart, et cetera; but some Christian apologist may well argue/conjecture, as you have done, that that is merely a means to an end, merely in order to get Christians to be more diligent in their observance of whatever the Church asks them to do, including the works thing that is so very similar to the RSSB Seva thing.

And you know what? The fact that Christianity is so very authoritarian, and tryrannical even in some cases, about adherence to the Jesus-is-God belief (as opposed to the apparently less stringent belief requirement on the part of RSSB initiates) may well, as you yourself say albeit in a different context, owe actually to a cultural explanation rather than a spiritual. Christian doctrine was promulgated long ago, in far more authoritarian times; while RSSB came long after, in far more modern and democratic times, as well as in the generally more tolerant climes of India, where such authoritarianism probably wouldn't be countenanced anyway. After all, not everywhere is Christian belief in the central vows insisted on. A prime example of that would be the Anglican Church. I shouldn't be surprised if less than 5% of those who subscribe to the Anglican flavor of Christianity actually believed any of that nonsense; and very very likely the titular head of the Church herself doesn't!!

My point is, the fact that the Master = GIHF/PLM teaching does not figure in the four vows of RSSB, while an interesting sidebar, isn't quite the big deal you make it out to be. As I've tried to argue/show in some detail in this comment.

[Appreciative Reader]

Hello, um.

Agreed, what is taught on the surface is sometimes very different to that is actually sought to be put across at a deeper level. And quite likely that might be the case with RSSB as well.

For instance, it could be that the fact that they don't insist on initiates "vowing" to believe in the Master = GIHF/PLM equation --- unlike in Christianity, say --- is merely a fig leaf, as that is what is in any case "taught" in practice. Potaytoes, potahtoes, is all it is, that difference. If that is what you're pointing out, in more general terms of course and not limited to that specific context, then I agree that what you say sounds fully reasonable.

However, and this isn't very clear from your comments, if you're trying to argue that RSSB slips in a Faustian deal in the guise of an oh-so-harmless milquetoast spiritual practice, well then while at one level I'd agree that that is quite possible; but at another level, and what in this case would be the more meaningful level, I'd point out that it is equally as insupportable to look on the RSSB Master as some kind of a horned Luceiferan supervillian (which is what commenters like Manoj and Uchit like to keep on saying in their comments here), as it is to look on him as the actual GIHF, as actually godly. So that I wouldn't take this very seriously; that the Gandalf-bearded tubby old GSD might be the Prince of Darkness is equally as risible an idea as is the idea that he might be literally Godly.

(Again, that above may not have been what you're actually arguing, at all. In which case, obviously, my comment in the preceding paragraph will not apply, at all. I'm afraid while in general terms you're clearly pointing out, very sensibly, that what is taught on the surface, innocuously as it were, is often not what is actually sought to be taught and actually brought about in practice; an observation that I agree with, absolutely, in general terms; but what specifically you're alluding to in this case, as far as the RSSB teachings [that is, what exactly it is you believe they might be trying to insidiously teach and work towards under the facade of their more innocuous surface-teachings], that I'm afraid isn't very clear.)

[Appreciative Reader]

'Which is why I ask: Why exactly does RSSB teach that the Master is a PLM, that he's GIHF, for what reason?"

AR,

Contemplation of Guru is part of the practice. Guru is the center of much discussion here, so even the critics find themselves engaging in a form of contemplation. It's like working with paint. No matter how careful, a fleck or two will always find your skin.

(Posted by: umami | June 19, 2022 at 02:59 PM)

----------

Heh, that's true enough, right? All of us sinners are basically being carried on in the RSSB train, even non-RSSB-initiates like me, as well as the "exers" , in the very act of our arguing about GSD and RSSB teachings, or even, as some do, in vilifying him/them outright and painting them in literally Luciferan hues.

That's a cool joke of yours, and taken in that spirt and appreciated, absolutely, umami. But thing is, that sort of thing is quite literally what some people apparently believe! I've seen roughly similar arguments put forward in some of the stories in the Itihas-ic and Puran-ic stories (of ancient Indian provenance), where the supervillian, in the very act of vilifying the Godhead and actually trying to kill them and to kidnap and rape their wife even, basically ends up working towards his own "liberation" by effectively keeping said Godhead in their thoughts.

Cool joke, sure. But what's a very sobering thought, is that this utterly risible idea, that is no more than a joke to you and I, was actually sought to be taught as an actual "lesson" to the rubes in times past, and might even, for all I know, be actually believed in, quite literally, by some/many folks even to this day. It's astonishing, it's crazy, the kind of utter nonsense that people find themselves able to believe in.

[um]

@ AR

There is not much to be added to what I wrote here before.

That said, I am not a teacher that wants and can make people understand things by repeated hammering their mind with the same concepts again and again as MSC used to say.

I have done my best to convey my point of view, i doesn't matter what people do with it

[Appreciative Reader]

As you wish, um. But rather than "repeated hammering" of generalities, which I agree serves no purpose, a brief and single-time spelling out of the specifics of what it is you mean to convey would probably do the trick.

But no issues at all, um, if you don't wish to pursue this any further. No big deal, as far as I am concerned. You yourself started saying this to me; and since I didn't quite understand what you meant, as to the specifics --- and still don't --- I thought I'd ask you to clarify, that's all. Happy to drop it, if that's what you'd like. Cheers.

[umami]

"But what's a very sobering thought, is that this utterly risible idea, that is no more than a joke to you and I, was actually sought to be taught as an actual 'lesson' to the rubes in times past, and might even, for all I know, be actually believed in, quite literally, by some/many folks even to this day."

AR,

Not joking. Not teaching either.
Only conceptualizing.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR
You wrote
"My point is, the fact that the Master = GIHF/PLM teaching does not figure in the four vows of RSSB, while an interesting sidebar, isn't quite the big deal you make it out to be. As I've tried to argue/show in some detail in this comment."

If it takes a lower priority to the practice and vows, then the opposite is the case. GIHF doesn't carry the same weight as the practice. The only weight it may carry, for those who need it, is encouragement to practice.

Whereas in Christianity, practice isn't a vow at all, but in Christianity GIHF is THE VOW.

Even in Buddhism, obescience to the "Enlightened Ones" is in their vows.

But not in Sant Mat.

Therefore I suggest that if you come from a culture where inner exploration is connected to spirituality and GIHF in that culture's approach, Sant Mat won't conflict with it. A good Hindu, Buddhist, even a good Atheist can make progress on the path believing or not as they choose. They just need to believe in their teacher enough to follow the practice and lifestyle.and learn for themselves from their own experience.

Then that is their actual proof.

The evidence for my claim that GIHF (and for that matter Seva) isn't as important as the vows is simply that there is no vow requiring GIHF or even Seva.

But if it is part of your upbringing, Sant Mat accommodates.

And if you don't need that baggage to explore reality within yourself, Sant Mat accommodates.

The priority is the practice, with GIHF as a belief, only important if that is what you need to practice.

I do not believe you have provided any evidence to the contrary.

[Um]

@ AR

Yes, yes it was I that put it on the table and there is not much more to it.

You see AR, from where I came things were never repeated, they were said and that was it, they were not discussed.

It is like a piece of art or craft, when finished and handed over to the user, consumer it is all up to them.

The 2 images I have used here are the key to everything,; the waking up in the cinema and stopping seeking the key, that was lost at home in the light of the world.

If you "gaze" long enough at these images they tell you everything I had to convey. There is no need for mee to explain anything as there is nothing to be explained. ... water is wet and fire is heat.

Imagine yourself sitting in that cinema, imagine yourself walking away from the attractions in the street and going home and close the door behind. Imagine what it does to you.

Finally .. there is no end to what can be projected on the screen in the cinema in the form of an movie with a script, scripts to be discussed, there is no end tho what can be known, had, discussed, in the light of the street .... realizing that simple fact one can ask oneself if one wants to invest ones time in it and for what reason.

But probably this will not much of satisfaction as an answer

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"..your partnership with Master within, his emerging.."

Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 20, 2022 at 12:46 AM

I appreciate your input!

Looking forward to heighten my experience. With this mind and maya mixing into family life, it all can be exhausting.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR:

The belief in GIHF isn't actually encouraged by the Masters, as you see here. Doesn't mean it isn't true, but we must find out for ourselves, hence the priority on practice, not blind belief.

Here is what Maharaj Charan Singh said about this in answer to a question:

"In the beginning we should just take him as a preacher or a teacher or a guide. And when we go in, we will realize what he does for us. We automatically see what he is. In the beginning we are just to take him as a guide, as a friend, as a leader, somebody to put us on the path. Then we ourselves will realize more and more why we need him.

"You see, everywhere, in every line, we need a teacher. You want to do law, you want to do engineering, we have so many teachers to put us ont he path. And we alsys give them due respect and are grateful to tkme for being so helpful to us. All that we are as an advocate or as a lawyer, it's all due to our teachers. In the same way, we need a master, we need a guide, to put us on this spiritual path. And when we realize what that path is, what the beauty of that realization is, we automatically know what we have to be, how we have to be with him. There is nothing that we have to force ourselves to admit, nor do we have to take a certain thing. All this comes from within, and whenever it comes, it comes from within. The realization is within."
Charan Singh, Spiritual Perspectives, Volume 1, answer to question 540.

So, you see AR, the idea that the Master is GIHF isn't to be taken by force of belief at all. It is to be discovered as part of our own journey. Other than that, we can simply follow the instructions as we would with the same diligence we would give to any Professor whom we believed to be a master of their subject. Nothing more is encouraged, and as you see above, anything more in terms of blind belief is actually discouraged.

[Spence Tepper]

Indeed, AR
The link between the teaching of GIHF and the Vows is simply, as Maharaji wrote above and in the comments earlier, that it is ONLY through the practice and vows that we can ever come to belief GIHF.

The vows must be followed in order to ever really know this.
But a level of belief in the Guru as a good teacher is necessary even to accept and follow the Vows...

Hope this helps clarify the balance and the priority of practice and living the lifestyle.

[In Search Of]

I believe there's a huge disconnect between those few who have gone within and realized or perceived what the Master within is, then what MSC writes is probably correct. The issue then becomes that vast majority of seekers who don't have a lick of experience to draw from, emulate the feelings of those who have seen and just verbalize the fact that the living master is not a normal human being. They propagate the myth without any experiences.

They rely on a small percentage of individuals, perhaps like yourself, that say certain things and take that as the "norm". It becomes an unofficial belief that the teacher is GIHF. GSD does say he is not. But he should take the next step and eliminate the shabds that say it, discontinue the books that state it. If it truly is not an accurate statement, stop the nonsense.

[T-]

Spence,

How can I reconcile my enjoyment for meditation, (and profound experiences within). My awareness has grown subtly since initiated by GSD back when he started His initiations, but with all the "smoke/fire" about stolen money, and handing over his Mastership to some one who's in jail, I can't just let this gloss over and forget and not have this affect my meditation. I don't always agree with what he says (or does), but I could still sit seeing him as my teacher/friend, but even what I see within, I've excepted the fact, about Him, I will focus more about the realization of the self, to the highest degree. To me, that's a full path for one life. Even my level of realization has kept me from acting in a less than positive manner. So one would believe at "that level", it would keep one from any thoughts of selfish behavior, let alone greed, fraud. So I sit with my expectations/thoughts/awareness of just being here, now. That's a lot. Thoughts?

[777]

@T

What is extremely helpful is
bringing your you higher than
where your hair starts.
between the third eye and the Crown
is kilometers / lightyears.
Follow wher the itching is and go higher

777

should add : "By His Grace"

God gave this SatGuru a grandiosa naivity ( at times )
A Saint works completely on Serendipities

"Nobody tells me nothing" (the old town road song )

[Spence Tepper]

Hi T-
You wrote:
" I can't just let this gloss over and forget and not have this affect my meditation."

If meditation brings you heightened understanding, greater peace, greater sense of love for your fellow human beings, then it is all the opposite of what the press suggests. And I suggest going within to that place often. If Baba Ji is part of that nothing can change at all. He is part of it. He was part of that before the press.

Why split yourself into two parts when you are already one with that?

A house divided cannot stand.

But what to do with those accusations?

Nothing wrong with trying to reconcile the two. But if there is error it can't be what gives you peace, harmony, understanding and greater kindness for all life.

That's not wrong.

The world can be wrong, dead wrong. But not that place within.

That's the place to bring these questions to. Give them to Baba Ji within you. Listen carefully for the answer.

Be willing to have your judgement amended. Don't we want our judgement improved daily anyway? It comes from within. That's where our judgement resides.

If you want to test that, acts of kindness are the best way. Are you stronger, more mature, more capable of compassion then you were? Prove it! If so, stay with it.

Whatever he is that is real, is inside you. You are a part of that. YOU carry him with you wherever you go. And seeking progress within, that certainly must include deeper understanding, even if that understanding can't be put to words just yet.

Yes, reconcile these things so that everything great and noble within you may proceed in front.

The heart understands in a moment what remains a mystery to the mind.

But the mind operates in a very limited sphere. Keep it clean and functioning within that sphere, and continue to soar to the stars in the lap of your beloved.

My opinion, anyway.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi T
" I can't just let this gloss over and forget and not have this affect my meditation....
So I sit with my expectations/thoughts/awareness of just being here, now. That's a lot. Thoughts?"

The entire point of meditation is integration with yourself, unconscious, spiritual, conscious, mind, heart and soul.

So there is an answer, and it can be found in meditation.

Give every question you have to your Master within. He is there, and that is actually the only place to find him.

Then listen for the answer.

I can't explain or justify, except to suggest that if going within brings you peace, teaches you to be harmless and more helpful, quiets anger, lust, greed and pride and replaces these with compassion, understanding and bliss...How can that be reconciled with the opposite?

Something must be wrong. Is it the world, or your inner peace?

I suggest the world is insane. And the inner peace is the reality.

Bring your questions to him, sincerely, with a request for a real answer. And wait patiently, stay there in the center. He must answer, he is obliged to do so.

But his answer might just be bliss. Can you handle that?

[back from the dead]

In search of
I agree almost all are just going by hearsay, very few have that actual experience. That being said we are all struggling souls in this life. We have no real free will and are just going through the destiny we have no control about so I dont think anyone is actually to be blamed. Instead of pointing fingers to other satsangis who just go by hearsay or anyone else for that matter lets look at ourselves and improve ourselves in our journey of life.

cheers

[Appreciative Reader]

"The belief in GIHF isn't actually encouraged by the Masters, as you see here."

..........Ha ha ha, back playing cat and mouse, are we? Regardless of what's said *here*, GIHF/PLM has been referenced, as a core teaching, plenty of times *elsewhere*, as Brian's amply shown, and as you've agreed with him already; and indeed, as you've admitted to me as well, and what's more even put forward a conjecture about why they have done it. So no, it isn't true that belief in GIHF isn't actually encouraged in RSSB. Quite the contrary.

----------

"Here is what Maharaj Charan Singh said about this in answer to a question: ...In the beginning we should just take him as a preacher or a teacher or a guide. And when we go in, we will realize what he does for us. We automatically see what he is. In the beginning we are just to take him as a guide, as a friend, as a leader, somebody to put us on the path. Then we ourselves will realize more and more why we need him..."

..........That's complete, utter BS. Sure that's what MCS says here, but had that been what RSSB is actually doing, then like I'd said they'd simply have actually walked the talk, and actually taught that the master is simply a teacher, and left the initiate to find out for himself what there is to find out. They wouldn't have taught that the master is GIHF, in that case.

You can't have it both ways. You can't, at the end of a long chase, after finally having been cornered, buckle down and admit that RSSB teaches GIHF/PLM; and after I ask, then after a few further rounds of the chasing-the-tail routine, finally buckle down again and put forward your conjecture about why it is RSSB teaches GIHF/PLM; and then after all of that suddenly change tacks and try to present a random quote and basis that quote try to claim, afresh, all over again, that RSSB does not actually teach GIHF. That's simply trying the old cat-and-mouse routine all over again, that carousel ride I referred to in my first comment in this thread.

----------

Brian had been wondering why you, and a few others following your lead, are trying to claim that RSSB does not teach GIHF/PLM, when it is plain as day that they do. The answer, I conclude, from all of these exchanges, is cognitive dissonance plain and simple.

As I've clearly shown here, RSSB teaches blind faith in essence exactly as the monotheisms do, despite the vow-not-vow thing. That's exactly what my last comment to you was about. To admit that would be to show up RSSB in an unflattering light, as a purveyor of woo; to admit that is to back oneself into a position there can be no defending against rational criticism; therefore the kneejerk reaction is to try to slide off to a different position, even if that position isn't quite based in reality. Hence these incessant sidebars, and changing the subject, and verbal feints and tricks galore, in these threads. I hope the latest round of rinse-repeat-afresh cat-and-mouse, where after all is said and done you try yet one more time to claim that RSSB does not teach GIHF/PLM might break through that cognitive dissonance and, just perhaps, impinge on an awareness trying desperately to keep its eyes blinkered. On the other hand, maybe not: because that is the nature of this animal, this cognitive dissonance thing. Fascinating.

[Appreciative Reader]

That said, let me end my participation in this thead on a conciltiary note. Not by diluting my position on the GIHF/PLM thing, nor about the cognitive dissonance thing, both of which are plain as day; but by talking about something you said that I genuinely appreciated. I refer to this comment of yours that you addressed to Karim: here's the link: https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2022/06/rssb-teachings-the-perfect-master-is-the-lord-in-human-flesh.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e202a30d4012c1200b#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e202a30d4012c1200b.

That was a lovely comment. Absolutely inspriational. I believe that is the sort of thing you excel in: advise people about how to go around doing the RSSB practice thing, which is a perfectly cromulent thing to be doing when the one asking is himself not in doubt about the practice and who is out sincerly asking for direction about the practice itself. In that scenario, it isn't a question of sussing about whether or not RSSB beliefs are rational or woo; nor is it a question of even evaluating RSSB beliefs and practice at all; but only advising someone who's already bought in to all of that, about the technique of it. Which, as someone who's done it all your life yourself, and what's someone who's very good at it, you do a great job of explaining and inspiring. Not only that, your words in that comment have application, if you gloss over some of the specifities, even in general terms, to meditation in general; so that I both enjoyed that comment of yours, and found it inspirational as well.

Cheers, Spence.

[Appreciative Reader]

I don't know why, but I see that in my comment above, the link I presented to the comment of yours addressed to Karim takes one simply to Brian's main post, and not to the comment itself. I guess which comment I meant is obvious from the context, but still, to spell it out, I meant the comment you posted on June 20, 2022 at 12:46 AM.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR:

You wrote:
"As I've clearly shown here, RSSB teaches blind faith in essence exactly as the monotheisms do, despite the vow-not-vow thing. That's exactly what my last comment to you was about. To admit that would be to show up RSSB in an unflattering light, as a purveyor of woo; to admit that is to back oneself into a position there can be no defending against rational criticism; therefore the kneejerk reaction is to try to slide off to a different position, even if that position isn't quite based in reality. "

Not sure what to make of this. I provided direct quotations from Maharaji, Sar Bachan, and a link to Gurindar's YouTube chat about the role of the Guru.

In all these, the direction is do your meditation and find out for yourself.

No one denies writing that the Master is GIHF. But they claim it is entirely unnecessary to take this on blind faith, nor should you. That is what the Vows are for, to see for yourself.

But you have summarily dismissed these writings in order to suggest that the GIHF teachings are in fact teachings that recommend blind faith. Nothing could be further from the truth.

So, what is the reason to cling to a misunderstanding?

I suggest the evidence for attempting to hide facts or ignore or dismiss them is simply the RSSB texts, including those I've cited, that do not square with your depiction and which you then dismiss. They would unravel your argument that RSSB promotes blind belief. I've proven it does the opposite. It promotes investigation and self-discovery.

When any case must rely upon excluding evidence from the very sources that are being used to make that case, we have bias in the argument.

Othewise, it's always nice to chat with you AR!

All love to my bro!

[Spence Tepper]

Oh, one more point on this AR:

Earlier when you attempted to claim what RSSB believers actually think or believe, I suggested that we simply poll active RSSB folks here to see what they actually believe.

Probably a mix of things. But I suggest, humbly, that those RSSB initiates who have been at it for a few years, and are happily so, active in their meditation pracctice, will have some personal verification that strengthens and informs their beliefs. ie; blind belief can't support their ongoing participation. Personal experience does.

And what is that? Anyone willing to, at least without giving their actual names, provide a narrative of what keeps them going on the path will certainly help enlighten those who are not on this path but who are trying to understand. Or who think they do understand.

I'm all for actual reality testing anyone's notion. It's been very healthy for me and I suggest it may help clear things up here as well.

[Spence Tepper]

Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji, the very same author Brian Ji quotes above says directly that blind faith is not to be indulged in, but effort and practice instead;

"The Master does not expect anyone to idolize Him. A boy, reading in primary classes, cannot judge the attainments of a B.A. Or M.A. The Master only wants you to look upon Him as your elder brother or friend, to follow His directions, as those of a benefactor, and work hard to go into the higher planes within you. When you go there, you will see for yourself the position and dignity fot he Master in those regions."
Spiritual Gems, letter 58, Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji

No blind faith is taught in any Sant Mat literature.

[Brian Hines]

Spence, that sounds a lot like blind faith, since there's no evidence the Master exists within those higher regions or if the regions even exist. Anyway, the subject of this blog post wasn't blind faith, but whether the RSSB teachings say that the guru is God in Human Form. I'm glad you've finally acknowledged that this is the case, since clearly it is.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji
You wrote
"Spence, that sounds a lot like blind faith, since there's no evidence the Master exists within those higher regions or if the regions even exist."

Very odd claim, Brian Ji since the entire practice of meditation is to explore, discover, investigate, gather your own evidence and see these things for yourself.

The evidence is the evidence gathered by anyone who makes any internal progress following the instructions.

To believe your claim one must ignore the very vows and the stated purpose of the vows made by the very authors you site.

There would be no purpose to the vows and the practice if blind faith would suffice. It won't. So your claim is problematic because there is evidence that actually refutes that claim.

If the Masters claim you aren't to take such statements on blind faith, then that is evidence against your claim these are "teachings" rather than simply statements of the Masters' own personal witness.

I did not claim GIHF isn't to be found in the books, only that it is not taught as something anyone should believe without gathering their own information.

You may argue about the quality of that research and evidence. But to ignore the Vows and the Practice, and the writings of the Gurus themselves doesn't speak well for your argument.

It would be much stronger if you found anything that said you should believe GIHF without any evidence at all, and therefore no meditation practice is necessary, no diet restrictions, etc.

You are welcome to find and provide such evidence. To date you have not.

I don't say you are wrong, Brian Ji.

But you are not entirely correct. Maybe just skewed a bit.

[Spence Tepper]

Now Brian Ji, as to what exists or doesn't exist within you and who and what you really are, those are all things you can find out for yourself.

The Masters also teach self-realization before God-realization. Again it's part of the practice.

Again, in contradiction to your claim, Sant May teaches that we must know a bit more about ourselves first before we can hope to understand anything at all about God.

Which means God may turn out to be anything, even a label for reality.

If the Masters wanted you to believe in GIHF without investigation, as a "teaching" why would they claim that it's impossible to actually know if GIHF is true without gathering your own evidence not only about GIHF but first and foremost about yourself?

What you claim isn't logical. But I get your drift.

People believe in the laws of physics without actually doing their own experiments and measurement.

But not physicists. Their professor requires all of that to be scrupulously replicated. Just like in Sant Mat.

So, yes, some idolize the guru, some reject the guru, and in both cases they didn't conduct their lab work. They never tried, or they tried very hard but gave up. But since they are enrolled in University, they must also be accommodated.

[Dungeness]

@ AR [ As I've clearly shown here, RSSB teaches blind faith in essence exactly as the monotheisms do, despite the vow-not-vow thing. That's exactly what my last comment to you was about. To admit that would be to show up RSSB in an unflattering light, as a purveyor of woo... ]

Yes, I'd agree with that first sentence if stripped of "teaches blind faith".
GIHF is a core RSSB tenet and the monotheisms are similar to RSSB
in that they could arguably claim personal investigation/discovery will
produce evidence to validate their particular GIHF belief.

But, monotheisms IMO attempt to validate their belief thru prayer and
good works mainly rather than pursuing a deliberative inward practice
to address and remedy the personal flaws that stand in the way of self-
discovery/growth. RSSB and mystics generally take on the dark side
of the psyche - the 24x7 stream of thought, mostly unseen - that
saps us of our control and spiritual growth. They also offer a friend-
ship on this very difficult journey inside. Their path is one of mindful-
ness and devotion. "Woo" and blind belief slough off along the way.

[Sonya]

Brian, honestly, I’m surprised it took you 35 years to realize the RSSB teachings are so erroneous. That said, I thoroughly enjoy your blog and your honest, thoughtful posts about your experience as a Satsangi and an atheist.

Although, I do believe in God, there isn’t a single commentator who defines God the same way I do. I completely understand why people choose not to believe in God. Religions and various sects have done much to turn sane, rational people away from spirituality.

People NEED people. You may not need a lot of people, but the whole purpose of life is to develop relationships that teach you the meaning of love.

Worshiping one individual is not the purpose of our human existence.

I followed RSSB teachings for 14 years which seemed life forever at one point in my life. But it’s been 4 years since I left RSSB. I’m just happy that I didn’t waste anymore time than what I did.

[El]

@UM
"That means that you are no longer responsible for the retribution of your karmic account but the guru ... from then on you owe everything you have and owe to him and him alone."

Both the predecessor and the current teacher seem to in Q&A's online correct a questioner and said that each person is responsible to KAL to go through their karmas in this life. They say they do not take on the disciple's karma, and no-one can leave without settling their debt - these karmas cannot be changed because chain events involve other people. I believe Great Master has said in Spiritual Gems that the teacher "MAY" choose to HELP with karmas (and MY interpretation of that is he may choose to help by lessening the effects, like pain, or change something that probably does not involve other people).

[um]

@ EI

If that "seems" to you what is said and you "believe" that, be your own guest.
Hahaha

[El]

To Um,
I'm glad to be convinced otherwise. This is what they seem to say to my ears. I will when i hear it next jot down the details of the recording.
Neither I nor anyone has to believe it from either standpoint. It is just an interesting discussion. I am curious about it and find the answers addressing this interesting.

Many are of the opinion you are and the answers surprised me a bit as did the fact that both teachers answer it the same way.

It's not a fistfight about who is right with snarky laughs. We should be able to find all the info details and share it.