I respond to a B.S. comment about my 52 years of meditation

UPDATE: Spence Tepper has apologized to me for his ridiculous attempt to claim that my 35 years of daily meditation while a member of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, usually for several hours a day, amounted to "nothing." Good for Spence. He recognized how wrong he was.

Hopefully from now on he will realize that my approach to meditation is the wise one: don't challenge someone's personal experience in meditation, but DO challenge any claim that this experience proves the existence of a supernatural realm beyond the physical.

Spence doesn't like my skepticism toward his brand of religious fundamentalism. I've pointed out to him that his proselytizing comments are being left on a Church of the Churchless blog, not a Church of the Churched blog. For 18 years I've criticized religious fundamentalists who want others to believe in their dogma without any evidence. I sure won't stop now.

One of the joys, if that's the right word, of having a churchless blog for the past 18 years is that I get a lot of first hand experience responding to religious fundamentalists who, for reasons known only to them, like to leave judgmental comments on a blog devoted to spiritual independence.

Here's a latest example, a comment from Spence Tepper today which was so ridiculous, I figured it deserved to be elevated to a blog post so its absurdity could be on fuller display. My responses to Tepper are in bold italics. 

Hi Brian Ji
You wrote
"Hope this clarifies things. Demanding proof of someone who, say, claims to have experienced the divine sound and light that creates and sustains the cosmos is fully warranted."

Exactly. And that's why there is the meditation.

Had you conducted the practice with any discipline at all you would have your own evidence first hand.

Wrong assumption #1. I was initiated by Charan Singh into the practice of meditation as taught by Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) in 1971, after first learning to meditate from a yoga teacher while in college.

I diligently followed the RSSB meditation instructions for 35 years. Never missed a day of meditation. Mostly I meditated for 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours a day. When I was working and had a young child, it was more difficult to do the prescribed 2 1/2 hours. So I had plenty of discipline in my meditation. You shouldn't make assumptions about someone else's meditation experience.

Also, hope you realize that RSSB stresses that initiates shouldn't talk about their meditation experiences. I'm OK with this being done, since I've done it myself. But you, like me, are breaking a RSSB rule.

You could have said," Yes, I saw the blinding light and have been able to reproduce it at will. Then I saw the sun, then the moon. I'm convinced it is simply the brain gaining access to signal directly outside the visual nervous system....but why the sun, why the moon? I'm still investigating to try to see where these images may have come from. They are far more intense than memory, especially when I can take time to look at them, even approach them... "

You could have developed a real theory around real information.

I did develop a real theory around real information. Based on my 35 years of RSSB meditation experience, and countless (almost) conversations with other members of RSSB about meditation, I've come to the conclusion that while some people report seeing scenes of supernatural regions of existence beyond the physical, almost certainly these don't reflect an objective reality but rather are subjective emanations of their brains, since there is no demonstrable evidence of those supernatural regions other than subjective reports.

Now all you have is the second hand evidence of the founders of every religion. And of every mystic who ever lived and documented what they went through.

Utterly false statement. There are lots of different approaches to meditation. What I experienced during my 35 years of RSSB meditation was very close to, if not exactly, how Buddhist and Taoist teachings describe meditation. I felt my self slipping away, probably because I don't have or am a self. I felt a sense of unity with all things, probably because everything is interdependent. Mystics have all sorts of different experiences. I don't really consider myself a mystic, but I've certainly had mystical experiences that are very difficult to describe in words.

Yes it evidence. And yes it deserves to be evaluated. But the only way to do this objectively is create the conditions to recreate the experience in your own lab and then you may test it as millions of others have done and are doing every day, with any way you like, including testing your own hypothesis about the causes.

You failed to do this.

Not true. I conducted the experiment of meditation, RSSB style, for 35 years. I've written a lot on this blog about what I found. Use the search box in the right sidebar to find those posts. Your fundamentalist attitude prevents you from realizing that different people can meditate and have very different meditation experiences. There isn't one right way to meditate, and there isn't one genuine meditation experience. If you believe there is, you're hugely mistaken about what meditation is all about. 

Let me be more pointed, Brian Ji.

You didn't have to reproduce the entire journey.

Again, you're assuming there's only one journey people take in meditation. Actually, people have all kinds of different journeys. 

Any part of it would have been fine. But what you report is zero.

Not at all. Every day I meditate, continuing to the present -- today -- I have a decidedly-nonzero meditation experience. Just because it isn't your experience doesn't make it any less meaningful or valid for me. 

That's practically impossible.

It's very possible. You should get out more and talk with other people about their meditation experiences. Since I did so much public speaking for RSSB, wrote three books on behalf of RSSB, and was the secretary of our local group for many years, as noted above I've talked with lots of people about meditation. Again, a Buddhist or Taoist would find my meditation experiences perfectly compatible with their spiritual outlook.

Anyone with a minimum of self-discipline can conduct any of a variety of meditation methods and at least watch their thoughts.

I've done that, and much more, for 52 years of daily meditation. It's astounding how you believe that, without ever having met me or knowing me in person, somehow you believe that you're privy to what I've experienced in meditation. How do you think you know this? Obviously it isn't possible. 

They could at least report what was happening to their body as they did so... And as they worked to gain some control, some level of mastery.

Geez, unbelievable. All of your own meditation sure hasn't affected the Judgmental part of your brain. I could ask, "Spence, how could you do so much meditation and end up such a religious fundamentalist with an exaggerated sense of your own divinity?" Oops, looks like I did just ask that.

They could at least notice the change in their thinking during meditation. And even learn how their brain reacts to different thoughts, how simran works, how distraction alters your level of consciousness wakefulness, and how focus raises it to observe more thoughts, their seeds and their destination all at the same time.

Been there. Done that. For 52 years.

But you report zero.

Wrong.

Not only does that make no sense at all. It is downright suspicious.

And not in any way scientific.

So there is no point in leaping to conclusions when you have not made the least effort to note just exactly what happened and to report it here for peer review. Then we can discuss what is going on within.

Why? I'm preaching the gospel of spiritual independence on this blog. I don't view meditation the way you do, as a way of demonstrating how evolved meditation has made me. I see meditation as a form of mental exercise and relaxation, in much the same way I view physical exercise. Tai Chi helps me understand what my body can do. Meditation helps me realize what my mind can do.  

As to what others report, they are reporting what happened to them, not for you to take second hand, but to note as their guide, testable reference points. Your own experience from your own effort is all that matters.

Hey, I agree with your last sentence. So why did you write this lengthy comment, most of which goes against what you just said?

The other testimony is meaningless to you because clearly you didn't take it seriously. Sorry to be so blunt.

I'm sorry to be so blunt in return, but you're totally wrong.

But you are being less than candd to suggest that 35 years x 365 days x 2.5 hours was spent entirely unconscious.

Wrong again. Amazing how many times you can be wrong in one blog post comment. I was awake and aware for virtually every moment in my 52 years of daily meditation. Sure, occasionally I fell asleep, but that was fairly rare.

31, 937.5 hours...

That's not meditation. It's sleep.

And what you just said isn't an intelligent observation. It's bullshit. 

Comments

[back from the dead]

Wow this blog is finally getting interesing. Brian vs Spence who to believe?? Both putting forth their experiences which none of us can validate but can only take their word for it. Isn't that what all paths are about?? Listen to the experiences of fellow travellers but conduct your own experiment and go by your own experiences?? In essence this means none of us have any right to say the other is BS cause we have no idea we only know what WE know.

[Arun Marwah]

Spirituality as practiced by Rssb is the best business in the world. You don't sell anything tangible in this business. You sell them the promise of taking their soul to heaven after you die. And the dead can't speak!!!!!!!

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji
I do see that you are reporting some of your experiences.
I thank you for that.

But your conclusions are almost always related to the supernatural aspects of Sant Mat, rather than the day to day progress towards stilling the mind and growing that bliss. You can't get to point B without mastering point A.

You have every right to question the results of others. And to draw conclusions.

But if you are trying to be open minded, you must allow without rancor your own method to be questioned. And avoid knee jerk accusations of the reports of others. Intake, dispassionate observation is how we learn. Progress in Zen should have gotten you there. But it doesn't look like it from here.

Creating an environment where everyone can share their successes and difficulties with their various practices in an open-minded and peaceful environment can only help each person work their own practice. That would be truly a Church of The Churchless.

Every experiment whether the hypothesis is confirmed or not is successful if the method is carried out correctly. It is a learning experience for everyone.

And that is why in Science, no result is trusted without reporting vigorously on method.

Scientists are very careful about drawing conclusions until they have completed a solid review of the literature, conferred with others who have made effort in that method, had some success in their efforts, and discussed results openly.

You keep bringing up your understanding of the Sant Mat rules when it comes to disclosure of information you don't want to talk about, but then tout the rules of science to proclaim "no evidence" even confronted with evidence. Apparently being scientific is a bad thing when it comes to presenting evidence you don't like. Let's just stick to the rules of science.

That you conclude the experiences reported in so much literature are false, non-existent, imaginary or lies is, as I've written before, quite an accusation, and without the discipline or humility of science and its rigor in critical evaluation, exploration and experimentation where possible.

When anyone conducts a series of experiments carefully, they learn more about the variables and how to take control of them.

That experience is a humbling one, but rewarding. In exchange they learn new things about what is going on. They gain mastery to some extent over the variables.

It may not be as lofty as something supernatural, but it will definitely be more than what they knew.

If meditation is mental exercise and relexation, as you say you believe, you would have advanced in the approach you vowed to pursue. Thirty plus years is a long time, and all the effort is just each of us doing our part.

You might not be running the four minute mile, but if your effort was sincere two things would have happened. First you would be doing a lot better and would see the difference. Second you would be cautious about calling people liars because your experience was different.

There would be no need to believe or make any accusations at all. It's all a matter of practice and YMMV.

You would be making progress at your level. And that would teach you one more important finding: what you understand about what is inside you is now quite different than it was ten years ago, twenty years ago. And therefore, having seen progress, it is impossible to conclude anything about the final destination, except that it is likely to be something you don't know today.

It is only when zero progress has been made that someone concludes "I've seen it all. Nothing here." Because any real progress would have proven to yourself that reality is still beyond your complete understanding.. There are discoveries within to be made.

But to report no progress makes no sense. Unless you were asleep at the wheel. To claim it is all false is really a stretch and without the adequate survey we had spoken about. It's almost as if you don't want to hear a different experience than your own. That's actually a little concerning.

Any method of meditation, practice, exercise has its positive effects. You have acknowledged none.

But it is precisely those effects that justify the effort.

If you get anywhere at all with it.

Among the Satsangis I knew seeing light and sound was not new, spectacular or supernatural.

It was the result of their work with their Master and nothing more.

Even learning to observe your thoughts and see how they behave, or finding novel solutions to daily challenges just through the calm and peace of meditation. These are all significant benefits.ie, raised awareness, raised cognitive functioning. Yes several schools of meditation produce similar results. Including Sant Mat.

And it is only honest and objective to report them, if you are trying to draw a balanced conclusion about anything.

So it is clear to me you are avoiding acknowledgeing these very common results in order to make very negative and false claims about Sant Mat.

What interests me is the cult-like nature of your cult accusations. Unwilling to explore your own position. Unwilling to acknowledge any truth in your opponents position.

Unwilling to adopt a view that progresses, that can learn anew.

The black and white nature of your criticisms do not speak to an open mind able to see the strengths and weaknesses of Other people, and the legitimacy of their differences. That parochial thinking is not liberation of any kind.

Or to acknowledge the same qualities in one's own efforts, successes and failings at meditation.

Had you done this, knowing Sant Mat doesn't have any vows of divinity at all, nor blind belief, you could have continued as an Atheist Satsangi. And continued to gain the growing health and cognitive benefits, the peace and insight that comes from long term meditation.

Just as RSSB is a practice of exploration and can be adapted to any system of belief or disbelief. The only exception to this is a system of accusations about other people.

Sant Mat is a focus on our own thinking, and so it is not well suited to accusation and polemic. But these fixed polemic positions you insist on, even to the extent of painting slanted crayon pictures of other real people, are not well suited to mental, emotional and psychological, even spiritual liberation and independence.

Certainly not well suited to an honest evaluation of meditation or RSSB.. You literally must ignore the vows to support your position.

So I conclude that whatever you are calling meditation is more like sleep, certainly not the challenges and the victories of continuous work in meditation practices.

[Back from the dead]

Arun not sure which RSSB you are speaking of the RSSB I know of and the books I read speak of the practice here and now not after death.

[777]

@Brian
"while some people report seeing scenes of supernatural regions of existence beyond the physical, "

Common scenes are astral
when causal the impression of "revelation" and Bliss would overwhelm the pictures!
Even more in the 4th region where you see the zillions of creations being One
cluster of Love
Ask S

Satori / Samadhi are etheric, NDE too, rarely astral and sometimes causal

RSSB brings The Soul above all that ( and yes regions are metaphores or states of consciousness )
. . above All That to the origine of Love and Dhyan and then become That!

In RSSB the exercise serves to create a minimum of Love , - just enough
to start the real meditation ( not contemplation )

Brain did 53 years of yogi_standard "meditation" not Bhakti, . . be honest , admit it
Spence uses gentler words to say this

777

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

(Original Thread)
"RSSB stresses that initiates shouldn't talk about their meditation experiences. I'm OK with this being done, since I've done it myself. But you, like me, are breaking a RSSB rule."

But why did Maharaj Charan suggest not to talk about it? In The Master Answers he says,
"Every teacher needs a Master. I do not agree that Swami Ji never had a teacher. Swami Ji had a teacher, whether they admit it or not. But, I do not wish to enter into controversy with anybody..
..I am not a student of history. Historians probably have to prove who was the Master of Jesus. Perhaps John the Baptist.." -pg 241 Eighth Edition

Key words, not to enter into CONTROVERSY. But like you, I've discussed things, even my crutches with inner experience with more seasoned satsangis. You know how some discussions can be healthy ones. But from what I've always heard is that a healthy discussion even on inner experience is permitted. Of course, Master wants us to excel in our meditations before volunteering experience which may or may not be help to another, or newer satsangi. If it helps then it's seva, if not it waited time. Time that could be put to more meditation.

(Original Thread)
"What I experienced during my 35 years of RSSB meditation was very close to, if not exactly, how Buddhist and Taoist teachings describe meditation. I felt my self slipping away.."

Thanks for sharing here.

You know, the one who led me to Dr. Johnson's book and the Path was my father. And he never got initiated before he died. But he did attempt the method in The Path of the Masters before I was born. And told me he experienced a similar 'losing of himself'. He told me that it was the most heaviest thing he ever experienced. Hence, what he said intrigued me. As I never saw anything that could scare him. So eventually I tracked down a copy and almost 20 year later got initiated.

But losing ourselves is what the Path's all about, man! In the same book The Master Answers, he also says,
"That is right. Mind is the stumbling block. This ego does not like to lose its identity. We always want to observe that I am so-and-so, and it is the I-ness that we do not want to lose. We perhaps think that we have developed it in this modern world, and that it is something quite unique, but the fact remains that the ego is a great stumbling block in out way. This is what we have to lose." -pg 397

Eighth Edition

[Brian Hines]

Spence, let me be even blunter with you: you're an ignorant asshole to question the depth of my commitment to meditation the past 52 years, 35 of which were done in accordance with the instructions of the RSSB guru who initiated me, Charan Singh.

You have no fucking idea of how many tears I shed in meditation during those 35 years, of how many thousands of hours I spent in a small closet or other enclosure, putting in the time that I promised to my guru, who for those many years almost meant more to me than life itself.

You have no clue. None. Yet you pretend that you do. In insulting me, you insult everyone who pursues a spiritual practice that doesn't match up with your fundamentalist view of the One and Only Way meditation should be done or what results should be achieved.

Charan Singh constantly spoke of love being the key. To meditation. To the rest of life. I experienced that love. I had that love. I didn't spend all those years doing seva, volunteer work, for any reason other than love for my guru and for the path of Sant Mat. I would remember Charan Singh saying that meditation is like boring through a thick mountain. You have no idea how close you are to the other side until the last barrier is breached.

Here's something else your fucking judgmental brain is clueless about. Let me enlighten you. I'm not sure whether I've ever shared this before, it's so personal and meant so much to me. But now the time seems right, given your totally wrong notion that anyone who doesn't meditate in exactly the fashion Master Spence Tepper deems suitable, their meditation has been wasted.

My mother died of a stroke in 1985. Prior to that, she had several smaller strokes. So it probably was in the early 1980s when I remember sitting on a stump in our yard, having just gotten the news from a neighbor of my mother that she was in the hospital, having suffered a stroke.

My mother, Carolyn Hines, was a seeker of truth. She deeply wanted to learn what life and the cosmos was all about. Her alcoholism didn't help in that search, but she keep looking for truth anyway. Divorced and never remarried, I had my problems with my mother. Yet I loved her.

I sat on the stump and talked to my guru, Charan Singh. I told him that my mother deserved to know the truth about the cosmos more than I did. So I made a request to Charan Singh. I asked that any benefit that might accrue from my meditation go to my mother, not to me.

After that, whenever I meditated I visualized that when I repeated the mantra I was given, the Five Holy Names of RSSB, my mother's soul was impelled toward the light of God, and my own soul was propelled backward toward darkness in a sort of action-reaction thing.

That was highly meaningful to me. It led to a lot of joyous tears. But you consider all of my meditation worthless, a nothing, just sleep. To which I say, fuck you, Spence Tepper. You should shut up about things you know nothing about, like what I experienced during my 35 years of RSSB meditation and the 52 years I've been meditating in total.

Just because I don't blab incessantly about my meditation experiences like you do doesn't mean they weren't, and are, really important to me. I'm saying this in part in hopes you don't do the same fundamentalist dogma thing with other people who are more sensitive than I am. I fight back when wrongly attacked. Others might simply view your words with despair and sadness.

[Trust but verify]

For RSSB disciples spiritual bouquet provides practical guidance to live a spiritual way of life. It seems even the successful practioners forget some of the basics/foundational principles of sant mat living.
Spiritual bouquet #5: "Never hurt the feelings of anyone. This is a sin which even God Himself does not pardon, because it cuts at the very root of spirituality. We should not thrust our views on others."
#20. "A wound inflicted on the body with a sharp weapon heals up in time, but no so the wound that the tongue (in this case the keyboard) inflicts on the heart of a man. Beware of hurting the feelings of any living being. This should be given as much importance as the vows of abstinence from meat etc, that we take at the time of Initiation."
#60. The Lord loves the humble and the low. Beware of injuring the heart of any man. God lives there. To those who break another's heart the gates of heaven shall remain closed."
#10. "Silence is golden. You are not running the world. Leave that to Him whose function it is to do so...
Solitude- to be alone as much as possible is essential for a spiritual seeker. Mixing with people brings us down to the path of the mind."

[777]

@Brian
Thank you for the clear explanation of the intensity (always)
of your REQUEST to save your mother.
It was granted

As you explained your spiritual Musk like contra weights have brought you very far
Remember the sheer nastiness of your attacks
against Charan, Charan's naive Successor and also
yesterday deleting the n-iest of my mails of love and help for many.

When it contains HOPE and FAITH you delete, .... Love too
""". . . that cannot weight to much on this God deprived blog""" says your Gollem mind

I would just try to remember a gram of your affectiness for Charan
or meet HIM again in next life where faith will be stronger than hate
You choose

Nothing of any second of the 32 years was wasted
apparenty old karma was involved
I understand Spence
His reaction is heavenly mild compared to what you vomitted in this blog

Try to understand that if God exists
SHE might prefer to be very naive on this disgusting planet

777

[777]

Karim said
As I never saw anything that could scare him. So eventually I tracked down a copy and almost 20 year later got initiated.

I had this too while trying yogi Ramacharaka meditation, before I ever heard of the Masters
I explained in old comments - horrific is a pleasant word

Now you are saving your father! - Purusha is so generous - Your unusual horrific
physical injuries have much to do with it

777

[Jim Sutherland]

Brian writes,…….” That was highly meaningful to me. It led to a lot of joyous tears. But you consider all of my meditation worthless, a nothing, just sleep. To which I say, fuck you, Spence Tepper. You should shut up about things you know nothing about, like what I experienced during my 35 years of RSSB meditation and the 52 years I've been meditating in total.”

Wow! Amazing melt down aimed at your #1 most admiring follower, and only one who referenced respect for you , by adding “Ji” to your Name. But no doubt, all of us Charan Initiates feel your pain of feeling abandoned by Charan during so many years of faithful meditation doing our best to follow the RSSB meditation technique as we understand. Your request to Charan to gift your successes in meditation to your Mom was, and is admirable.
RESPECT, Brother! I also obviously feel deserted and falling short of the RSSB promises of having guidance of Charan meeting me inside and leading my through the Inner Spiritual realms to Sach Khand. It just has not happened,….yet. But I’m still chained to his Bull Dozer chain. He did visit me only once, inside , clearly, and I saw his Radiant Form clearly, a foot away from me, on my right side, while he spoke to me advising me about a Medication my body needed at the time. That was the only time to date I ever had clear contact with his Radiant Form in 32 years of meditation. But I am still hoping his Bulldozer Chain has us all on the way to Sach Khand, including you and I.
Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

I posted the following on my Facebook Wall yesterday. I believe that we are able to visit our loved ones who have not yet reincarnated back here, during Mediation, which is difficult to determine if these inner experiences are by dreaming, or by being led there by meditation. I believe that continued Meditation opens more inside channels of Journey of our Soul the more we meditate.
“ Mom would have been 100 today, had she not been locked inside a Memory Care facility that we put her in, which unexpectedly became locked down 2 days after , because of the Covid pandemic, and none of us were allowed inside to visit her. She died eleven weeks later in her sleep, a week or so shy of 98. I actually visited her, during my early morning Meditation this morning, and must have been taking her out to lunch for her Birthday. She opened the door to her house, and was all dressed, smiling, and waiting. There was more, but that’s all I remember, other, than she looked much younger, but she knew me. I just brushed it off as another sort of a dream, until remembering the significance that it would have been her 100th Birthday today!”
Jim Sutherland

[Ron E.]

Regarding Spencer's (and other comments). I understand that someone holding strong views can often assimilate them into their very self structure becoming a part of 'who I am' and where criticism is felt as an attack as threatening as though the body was attacked and arousing survival mode.

I meditate regularly and in the past had numerous strange and wonderful experiences but have not felt them to be anything other than interesting phenomenon produced by the brain. I find it unnecessary and not helpful in allocating such experiences to something other than natural, biological happenings that the body/brain organism experiences under certain conditions.

I'm actually more interested in how the brain produces such states and under what conditions. To this end I respond more favourably to research on brain states. For me, the latest mine of information regarding this is in Kevin Nelson's book 'The God Impulse'.

The book's cover announces:- 'In The God Impulse' Kevin Nelson, a neurologist with three decades' experience examining the biology behind human spirituality . . ' And:- 'Offers the first, comprehensive, empirically tested, peer-reviewed examination of the reasons we are capable of NDE's, OBE's and other mystical states'. By no means does he decry spiritual states, regarding them as a valuable aspect of human life and possibly, for some at certain times, helpful.

I do think that (partly through meditation and self observation) it is possible for individuals to understand the workings of their own mind – which of course includes thinking, memory, the self and all the other mental elements that form the mind.

[Ron E.]

Also, to comment sensibly and to put forward an alternative view is one thing, whereas to 'undermine' another's comments is far from constructive.

[Osho Robbins]

Spence, let me be even blunter with you: you're an ignorant asshole to question the depth of my commitment to meditation the past 52 years, 35 of which were done in accordance with the instructions of the RSSB guru who initiated me, Charan Singh. - Brian

ANYONE who spends that much time in meditation is clearly committed to the path. From my experience, very few disciples are that committed. They might do seva etc, but meditation requires a different type of commitment.
Results such a light / radiant form / etc are the exception rather than the rule. Occasionally some people have an experience.

Most followers are following their own path - their own ideas - their own conclusions. One person seeks a little peace, another seeks to get to Sach Khand.

Imagine
Person A seeks calmness and peace
and
Person B seeks radiant forms and a journey to Sach Khand

Person A says he is successful because he feels peace.
Person B consider himself a failure unless he happens to experience inner regions

The question is, Who is following the right path?

Each is following his own path and drawing his own conclusions

Tao has a very different perspective from someone seeking an experience.
Taoism is about accepting life as it is.

a very different type of progress.

"You have no fucking idea of how many tears I shed in meditation during those 35 years, of how many thousands of hours I spent in a small closet or other enclosure, putting in the time that I promised to my guru, who for those many years almost meant more to me than life itself."

Most people give up. Brian did not.
seeking an experience may be the trap.
the end of seeking is what the buddha taught.
no goal, no destination

RSSB doesnt make it clear what the goal is
each person makes their own conclusions

"You have no clue. None. Yet you pretend that you do. In insulting me, you insult everyone who pursues a spiritual practice that doesn't match up with your fundamentalist view of the One and Only Way meditation should be done or what results should be achieved.
Charan Singh constantly spoke of love being the key. To meditation. To the rest of life. I experienced that love. I had that love. I didn't spend all those years doing seva, volunteer work, for any reason other than love for my guru and for the path of Sant Mat. I would remember Charan Singh saying that meditation is like boring through a thick mountain. You have no idea how close you are to the other side until the last barrier is breached." - Brian

Anyone who doesn't get the promised results is entitled to complain.

But maybe the real prize is Love. Discovering real Love in the process
Like Brian has for his mother.
"Give the results of my meditation to my mother"
Who can say such a prayer?
only one who truly loves.

Seeking results and experiences is selfish.
Seeking nothing is the ultimate
"The one who seeks nothing is the king of kings"

"Stop seeking" may be the highest attainment

[Osho Robbins]

"My mother, Carolyn Hines, was a seeker of truth. She deeply wanted to learn what life and the cosmos was all about. Her alcoholism didn't help in that search, but she keep looking for truth anyway. Divorced and never remarried, I had my problems with my mother. Yet I loved her.

I sat on the stump and talked to my guru, Charan Singh. I told him that my mother deserved to know the truth about the cosmos more than I did. So I made a request to Charan Singh. I asked that any benefit that might accrue from my meditation go to my mother, not to me." - Brian

This is the highest love. Give and seek nothing in return.
If the path is about Love, then this is the greatest attainment.

Everyone seeks only for themselves. Listen to the Q&A - there is a common theme
Everyone says "Give me grace, help me, come at my death"

GSD is saying let go.

The highest let go is to seek nothing

To sincerely pray to Charan SIngh to give your meditation results to your mother
is impossible for anyone to do unless they have Love and abandon the "I" that always seeks for itself.

This may be the highest and ultimate attainment from all the meditation.
Seeking light, or regions is still seeking and comes from desire and greed.

To say "give the results to my mother" is the end of selfish seeking

"That was highly meaningful to me. It led to a lot of joyous tears." - Brian

Nothing is higher than a Love that gives and seeks nothing in return.
I am always in awe of anyone who does that - Give and seek nothing.

perhaps that is the real fruit of all that meditation

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji
You wrote:
"Spence, let me be even blunter with you: you're an ignorant asshole to question the depth of my commitment to meditation the past 52 years, 35 of which were done in accordance with the instructions of the RSSB guru who initiated me, Charan Singh. - Brian"

For just about 30 seconds, imagine that all Satsangis are just as sincere as you are, including Baba Ji.

Do their efforts give them the right to question you?

Did your sincerity give you the right to question them?

Try treating others as you would have them treat you.

If your experience is sacred, then honor the experience of others as sacred as well, for them.

I have no doubt your experience is sacred, Brian Ji.

That doesn't mean you, or I or anyone is done with their journey. We all have much to learn.

Some of that from each other.

Take a look at your diatribes against RSSB followers and the Master and for a brief ten seconds, imagine they put as much into it as you did.

They came out differently. As we all are. We are each different, Brian Ji, and each of us will have a different response.

So, please avoid depicting Satsangis as ignorant cult members either being exploited or exploiting each other.

You do dish this out regularly. Now you have a tiny fraction of that back.

Is it unfair? Of course it is. My comments were entirely unfair and unjustified.

Yes, that is right...please remember how terrible I was before launching off yourself once again in the same direction with accusations about people you have never met and will never know, and even those you think you do know.

Let my poor behavior be a mirror, sir.

And accept my apology that I will never question your sincerity and the validity of your personal experience. I should not have done that. No one should do that.

You deserve an apology, and I'm making one right now to you, Brian Ji.

I only ask you to think about that for about 30 seconds of contemplation.

[La Madrugada]

Just because I don't blab incessantly about my meditation experiences like you do doesn't mean they weren't, and are, really important to me. I'm saying this in part in hopes you don't do the same fundamentalist dogma thing with other people who are more sensitive than I am. I fight back when wrongly attacked. Others might simply view your words with despair and sadness.

Posted by: Brian Hines | June 22, 2022 at 06:57 PM

Bravo Brian, and please Spence, skip the "Ji" behind Brians name!!

[spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji:

You wrote:
"Spence, let me be even blunter with you: you're an ignorant asshole to question the depth of my commitment to meditation the past 52 years, 35 of which were done in accordance with the instructions of the RSSB guru who initiated me, Charan Singh. - Brian"

Brian, I fully trust that your efforts were sincere. But I'm sorry to say that it appears you didn't get much out of the practice.

Why do I say that?

Because you yourself regularly launch into a diatribe against people you have never met and don't know. You depict RSSB and Satsangis as ignorant cult members being manipulated and exploited, and indeed exploiting each other. This isn't everything you post, but it is a good 30%.

Indeed you do this for anyone who holds a belief in God. In 100% of your posts you attempt to explain sacred experiences and beliefs in terms that disenfranchise true believers by denigrating their faith and their intelligence.

You denigrate their personal experiences, their beliefs and stand upon the ground of rational thinking as your sacred and earned platform to do this, rather than respecting them for being different, legitimately different than you are.

We all have different experiences, Brian Ji. We should honor them all as legimate, rather than question them.

But from the very scientific perspective which you and I both believe in, it is in fact appropriate to question the method if one is claiming a result, and the data, the experience..whether that result is something fantastic or something mundane.

So, short course. I apologize for questioning your sincerity, but not for questioning your actual experience. Because regardless of the method, your report of relaxing and merging into everything, without any actual witness of something new, just sounds like falling asleep.

[777]

How can you say :
RSSB doesnt make it clear what the goal is
each person makes their own conclusions

Charan started EVEY Satsang with the following - paaraphrasing :

Why is nobody happy in this world
That is because everybody is attached to perishable things
We suffer long before it will be taken away from us
So, attach yourself to something ETERNAL and LOVE IT
The beautiful Anahabad Shabd, The Sweet Holy Ghost every one can hear is
that eternal thing
It s not so difficult and a question of attention
like admiring a given Lomborghine and forget the rusty bicycle

Every Satsang Really - maybe it was a Ferrari he used to compare

I'm in my third initiated life, one more to come
and I swear HE spoke the truth

777

and
@Karim Seth Shiv Dayal's Master was Tulsi Sahib
I have that black on white on audio

[777]

@JIM
Yes
Thanks to your writings
I don' forget my 500 Mgram Aspirine before sleeping

There is so much Joy already in what we have
F I : Are U afraid of death ?
Your answer is "NO"

Who ever wants to be JIM if Jim has become God
I m sure Jim abstains

777

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"#10. "Silence is golden. You are not running the world. Leave that to Him whose function it is to do so...
Solitude- to be alone as much as possible is essential for a spiritual seeker. Mixing with people brings us down to the path of the mind." "

Posted by: Trust but verify | June 22, 2022 at 08:09 PM

I verified your quote. I see you used sub-parts of 1: Silence, and 4: Solitude, both under the #10 Spiritual Bouquet.

Don't get me wrong, I like the quotes. I also saw you left out the part in sub-part 1: Silence; "Open your lips only when it is most necessary.."

And that, I feel is a good thing in a healthy discussion. Because if we were commanded to always keep quiet. Satsangis wouldn't need to talk in Satsang either. I feel the main point about ANY discussion was to try and keep it healthy. As we are all struggling on the path, imperfect as human beings, we still at times may bump heads. The main thing is like Maharaj Ji said. "If we fall, we must get back up!"

Get back to our spiritual pursuits.

"Now you are saving your father! - Purusha is so generous"

Posted by: 777 | June 23, 2022 at 02:44 AM

Wow,

You know. Somebody at Satsang told me the same thing here. That my meditations not only helped me, but trickle to my family, my neighbors, country, and to the rest of the world and its creatures, if my meditations are sincere.

I don't really get that as from what I've read, I been under the impression that I'm meditating to burn off a storehouse and loads of karmas to help my soul to one day become unfettered and fit for Sach Khand.

But I do hope my meditations help others too.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Karim:
You wrote
"But I do hope my meditations help others too."

Anything that raises your thinking above conflict, into unity, that keeps you focused on the light, any noble ideal that acknowledges we are all brothers and sisters, even the animals...one true race of living beings, that does two things, at least: 1. That peace is felt by all those around you. They become fearless, confident and safe in the environment of balance, safety and peace you have built from that Love within yourself. Everyone shares in that; 2. When confronted with violence, including violent thought, we are more aware of our options to respond appropriately. Might just be an escape route. Or it might be words that help calm the flames down.

Or words that establish an uncomfortable truth in a way that cannot be denied.

Stay focused on that divinity, because it transforms everything. Your world will change, and some of that will be that you are changing.

If every negative thought has its effect, so does every positive one. And worship of the divine within ourselves is the greatest of these.

[Brian Hines]

Spence, point out the times I've denigrated the personal experiences of anyone in meditation. I don't recall ever doing that. What I recall is many times saying that someone's subjective experience is just that -- subjective and personal. I challenge the notion put forward by you and others that your experiences in meditation reflect some sort of objective supernatural reality.

I keep asking for evidence of this. I never get any. I'm going to keep on challenging baseless claims of the supernatural. Maybe you haven't noticed that this is a Church of the Churchless blog, not a Church of the Churched blog.

You are fully immersed in the RSSB/Sant Mat theology. That's fine. It's your right to embrace a form of religious fundamentalism. But you persist in proselytizing in the many, many comments you leave on this blog, often using unrelated blog posts to preach your brand of religiosity. I tolerate this, even though it goes against this blog's commenting policy. Be thankful for that, instead of criticizing me for bashing religious fundamentalism, which I've done from the first days of this blog.

Osho Robbins, thanks for your wise comments about love. I hope Spence Tepper takes them to heart. He thinks spirituality is all about having inner experiences of light and sound and then bragging about them on the internet. You're correct: what I learned about love during my 35 years of RSSB meditation is what spirituality is all about. Thanks for making that clear.

[Roger]

@Spence

Maybe, it's time for you to take a vacation from the Church of the Churchless. While on your vacation, prepare a blog of your own and spend much of your time there.

[Appreciative Reader]

"@Spence

Maybe, it's time for you to take a vacation from the Church of the Churchless. While on your vacation, prepare a blog of your own and spend much of your time there."

(Posted by: Roger | June 23, 2022 at 10:10 AM)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Speaking for myself, and myself alone: I most emphatically DON'T think that.

I've called out, in clear terms, and more than once, what appeared to me to be Spence's (probably inadvertent) BS-ing in these pages. I've also highlighted, in very clear terms, specifically what I found troublesome with Spence's current set of comments, in the thread immediately preceding. But that said: I find Spence's comments, on the whole, a very welcome addition to the overall Church of the Churchless experience, at least for me.

Agreed, of late they've tended to be rather high on the proselytization, his comments I mean to say. And at times the strawmanning and what-appears-deliberate equivocating can get irksome. But that said: I for one --- and for what that is worth! --- find Spence's presence here very welcome, and would like to make clear to him that the sentiment I've quoted above is not shared by everyone here (or at least, I can't speak for others, but it isn't shared by *me*.)

[Appreciative Reader]

"For just about 30 seconds, imagine that all Satsangis are just as sincere as you are, including Baba Ji.

Do their efforts give them the right to question you?

Did your sincerity give you the right to question them?

Try treating others as you would have them treat you."

--------------------

Hi, Spence! *waves*

I don't mean to be piling on to you at this time! But you seem genuinely mistaken about how you're viewing this situation, so perhaps you wouldn't mind a single comment from me pointing this out. Three essential mistakes you're making here, as I see it:

First: Whether or not a question is valid is a function of what the question is. When you share your experiences here, then absolutely, in a rationalist platform it is perfectly acceptable, and expected even, that the implications of those experiences are questioned, as well as their provenance. However, should someone, without reason, and what is more without provocation, pointedly attacks your honesty, and insists that you are lying about your subjective experiences (that is to say, outright lying about even having those experiences in the first place), then clearly that is crossing a line. The only way crossing that line is acceptable is if there is direct evidence of such misrepresentation in the past; or else maybe if it is in deliberate retaliation for past affront; but on no other grounds, certainly not on grounds of rational questioning.

Two: In the other thread, I've highlighted some specific issues with your current line of questioning here. I won't go back to that discussion now, but I think I've made my POV amply clear there.

And three: There's this thing about personalization. It's one thing to call GSD a liar and a crook, because clearly he seems to be that. But it's a different matter altogether to personalize the discussion and directly claim, without provocation, and without justification, that somoene you're speaking to is lying. (And I'm afraid the justification you offer for that observation is entirely mistaken, as I've clearly shown in the other thread; but I won't repeat that argument here.)

So that, Brian's questioning you --- or for that matter, our questioning you --- about the provenance as well as the implications of your experiences; as well as Brian's questioning --- as well as the rest of us questioning --- GSD's probity, for instance, as well as the validity of RSSB meditation overall: all of this is very different than your claiming, on utterly spurious grounds (as I've shown in the other thread), that Brian had been dozing off instead of meditating, as well as lying about it. There is no equivalence between the two, I'm afraid.

Like I said, I don't mean to pile on on you at this time; and I won't comment on this thread after this. I only typed out this comment because you seem to sincerely, but mistakenly, see an equivalence here, where in fact there is no such equivalence at all; and I thought to point it out to you.

[Appreciative Reader]

"I sat on the stump and talked to my guru, Charan Singh. I told him that my mother deserved to know the truth about the cosmos more than I did. So I made a request to Charan Singh. I asked that any benefit that might accrue from my meditation go to my mother, not to me.

After that, whenever I meditated I visualized that when I repeated the mantra I was given, the Five Holy Names of RSSB, my mother's soul was impelled toward the light of God, and my own soul was propelled backward toward darkness in a sort of action-reaction thing."

..........That's ...so very moving! I can't think of a more ...distilled, expression of love, than that!

[Back from the dead]

Spence wrote
Because you yourself regularly launch into a diatribe against people you have never met and don't know. You depict RSSB and Satsangis as ignorant cult members being manipulated and exploited, and indeed exploiting each other. This isn't everything you post, but it is a good 30%.

Indeed you do this for anyone who holds a belief in God. In 100% of your posts you attempt to explain sacred experiences and beliefs in terms that disenfranchise true believers by denigrating their faith and their intelligence.”

I agree with Spence he has been the only one to have the “guts” to question Brian and have his comment left on this blog. My comments over the years were repeatedly deleted.
Love is the core of our essence and once you have even an inkling of that love you feel if for everyone then you don’t hate on them or put them down for their beliefs you accept them and love them even if they are different. I can speak for myself my practice had awakened this feeling in me foremost. Understanding fellow travelers in life and accepting their journey for what it is. Question or debate sure but with love and respect. I’ve never seen any of that with Brian.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji:
I do apologize that I offended you.

But, a good scientist can't let that stop their pursuit.
You don't believe in God, which is fine. But you think others are wrong who do. That's presumptive.

I was hoping that I would learn something substantive about your experience and effort in meditation practice. Doesn't have to be the RSSB practice. Any practice, that would shed light on your conclusions.

All I can see of your meditation experience is that is appears to be more like sleep than meditation.

Not making any comments about your relationship to Maharaji. That is always sacred.

[Brian Hines]

Spence, all I can see of your meditation is that it appears to be more like self-delusion than meditation. So there we are. The difference between us is that I’ve never said your meditation amounted to nothing, because I’m not a religious fundamentalist like you who believes there is only one way to practice meditation. Your judgmentalism appears to come from a deep insecurity, but only you can deal with that.

[Back from the dead]

Brian wrote
“ Maybe you haven't noticed that this is a Church of the Churchless blog, not a Church of the Churched blog.”

I think it’s time to change this to “ideas that appeal to Brian Hines blog”

Then atleast we will all know what we are getting into when commenting here.

Even sam Harris is an atheist but he often has Jordan Peterson a Catholic on his show to debate and bounce ideas off of. I have yet to hear him cuss at Jordan or call him a fundamentalist or even silence him.
That’s a healthy debate IMO

[In Search Of]

One thing that has dawned on me through years of investigating, reading and meditating, is that maybe some people are just wired differently. It's not a matter of excessive effort, not enough love, or anything else for that matter. If you're "wired" for hearing, seeing, or experiencing whatever is programmed in our DNA, then it doesn't matter how much you meditate, you're not going to "experience" anything because you're not wired for it.

Those like Spence and others that see or hear things form an early age are just genetically different and so pick up on that frequency, so to speak. The vast majority of us will struggle because we don't "get it".
I call bullshit on that. Meditate because it feels good, there is a measure of calmness that permeates your being, or simply helps you be a better focused individual. The fact that very few see or hear anything is pointless.

Although the early writings from RSSB and Soami Ji state unless you reach the inner form of the Master, you're f@kd and will have to come back. So the story goes.

[Ahujahalava]

You're f@kd if you have heavy attachments, whether to family friends loved ones enemies or indiduals who you're heavily attached to, or worse to your own bloated arrogant opinion of yourself, then you're f@kd and you're going to have to keep coming back to fix your problem or undo the hurts or deeds that f@kd you.

Those who have no such attachments and no heavy need for blowing their hifalutin trumpet in the world, they have far less issues to solve. They're far less f@kd in the head than those meditating megalomaniacs who think so highly of themselves.

[Generation77]

For well over 10 years the author of this blog has written about how he and everyone he knew in the Sant Mat world achieved nothing with their Sant Mat meditation.

Someone pipes up to agree that the author of the blog achieved nothing with his Sant Mat meditation.

The author of the blog is grievously offended at the person for saying such a thing.

I have to wonder why the author of the blog takes out his anger on Spencer, and not on the Guru who enlisted him in 35 years of a meditation that produces no real results. I suspect that the anger is tied to resentment at being taken in, devoting a chunk of one's life to a noble cause that one now perceives as a fantasy, and generally wasting one's time. If that's the crux of the thing, Spencer has nothing to do with it.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji
You wrote:
"Spence, all I can see of your meditation is that it appears to be more like self-delusion than meditation. So there we are. The difference between us is that I’ve never said your meditation amounted to nothing, because I’m not a religious fundamentalist like you who believes there is only one way to practice meditation. "

Brian Ji, you have made this remark many times over the years. It is your right.

As it is mine to point out that sleep does happen in meditation. It's OK, Brian Ji.

Happens to the best of us.

But it isn't progress.

[7]

@Brian @All
"I keep asking for evidence of this. I never get any."

This is a lie
I offered physical evidence several years

7

[Joe]

Has anyone watched the film/documentary "Inner Worlds, Outer Worlds"?

Made in 2012 and I had never heard of it until today.

The film is broken into smaller parts and is available here :

https://awakentheworld.com/series/inner-worlds-outer-worlds-series/

Interesting as it is done by a westerner rather than someone from the east.

[Brian Hines]

7, send me your physical evidence of the supernatural. Then we can share in a Nobel prize.

Generation 77, share links where I've said that RSSB initiates never achieved anything with their meditation. I don't recall doing that. My criticism is of RSSB initiates claiming that their meditation proves the existence of a supernatural realm beyond the physical. Obviously meditation has effects on the meditator.That's why I reacted so strongly to Spence Tepper saying my own meditation had zero effects. That was absurd, a blatant lie.

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"..spirituality is all about having inner experiences of light and sound and then bragging about them on the internet. You're correct: what I learned about love during my 35 years of RSSB meditation is what spirituality is all about.."

Posted by: Brian Hines | June 23, 2022 at 10:04 AM

I think I read somewhere that inner experiences weren't everything.

And perhaps Baba Ji also said something close to the same thing. If I remember correctly, he said, "A disciple could never see light because in a past life they'd already crossed Brahm."

So to me, this sounds like a disciple may be on his/her 4th lifetime and final run. And next stop, is Sach Khand!

[back from the dead]

Brian says
"Generation 77, share links where I've said that RSSB initiates never achieved anything with their meditation. I don't recall doing that.:
just one of the many Brian

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2022/05/rssb-training-produces-zero-results-in-satsangis.html

[Brian Hines]

Back from the dead, the blog post you linked to has no mention of satsangis not achieving anything in meditation. Here's what I actually said:
-----------------------
One person included a nicely caustic observation about RSSB satsangis.

"I have pointed out that you could compare Satsangis to Navy Seals. They train every day by meditating, they eat only certain things. Eventually, you should see some form of result. All I have seen are fat lazy Navy Seals. That training produces zero results. In fact I think it creates more psychological disorder."

You won't get much of an argument from me about that. My main caveat regarding the Navy Seal analogy is that members of this elite American military group actually do train hard every day.

But RSSB initiates, not nearly as much, especially when it comes to meditation, which is supposed to be done for 2 1/2 hours a day.

However, most satsangis do seem to stick to a vegetarian diet, along with not drinking alcohol or using recreational drugs. And quite a few attend the equivalent of RSSB church services every week, satsangs.

So you'd think all this religious activity would produce some positive changes in RSSB initiates, even if their meditation didn't match up to the ideal. I agree that those changes often aren't apparent, which makes the "fat lazy Navy Seals" analogy an apt one.
-----------------
My point was that supposedly adhering to the RSSB teachings turns people into God-realized beings within four lifetimes. So shouldn't there be some initiates who are close to that ideal?

If so, it isn't obvious. Roland deVries, the RSSB representative for the western US for a long time, liked to say, "Satsangis are just ordinary people." Couldn't t agree more. They get as much benefit from meditation as anyone who meditates: relaxation, concentration, and such. But God-realizatio or access to supernatural realms, there's no evidence of that.

[Back from the dead]

Brian you wrote
“ My point was that supposedly adhering to the RSSB teachings turns people into God-realized beings within four lifetimes. So shouldn't there be some initiates who are close to that ideal?”

Sorry for you if you have not seen those but I can attest to having dealt with a few of these people, some are initiated by an RSSB guru and others by other mystics each one of them have a teacher and follow what they are taught implicitly (they won’t openly say that but I have had the good fortune of being around them long enough to see the life they lead).

“ But God-realizatio or access to supernatural realms, there's no evidence of that.”

Dare I ask what is evidence of this? You mean they are not walking around performing miracles or parting the sea?? That’s god realization?? Haha

[Brian Hines]

Back from the dead, I've written about how I came to have fairly frequent meetings with Gurinder Singh and high-level functionaries at the Dera, RSSB headquarters. My impression, based on specific interactions, was that they all were no better than ordinary people and sometimes worse as regards ethics, morality, honesty, and such.

[Dungeness]

@ Brian [ Roland deVries, the RSSB representative for the western US for a long time, liked to say, "Satsangis are just ordinary people." Couldn't t agree more. They get as much benefit from meditation as anyone who meditates: relaxation, concentration, and such. But God-realizatio or access to supernatural realms, there's no evidence of that. ]

But ordinary seeming people can be capable of extraordinary insights.
The evidence is inside them in their awareness, not in demonstrable
physical effects or artifacts. That is to say, other than those proven
benefits of meditation you mention above.

Their evidence isn't locked away in some inaccessible "Woo vault"
however. Mystics offer a clear path of mindfulness/devotion to attain
the same level of awareness potentially. Moreover, mystics have
validated claims of god-realization/supernatural realms reported by
other mystics of history.

[Back from the dead]

Brian you are completely entitied to your own opinion based on your experience like I said in my earlier post it’s a shame you haven’t had a different experience because I have. perhaps that was just my good fortune that was have come accross amazing spiritually inclined people (the kind who’s company one would constantly seek).
It’s not they are not there your experience has led to to believe otherwise.
That’s my experience

[Pema Tej]

Brian Ji, you have made this remark many times over the years. It is your right.

As it is mine to point out that sleep does happen in meditation. It's OK, Brian Ji.

Happens to the best of us.

But it isn't progress.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 23, 2022 at 12:52 PM

Spence, it is okay to point out that sleep does happen. But who are you to determine what is progress in meditation and what is not?
It seems like you are riding on your high horse in my opinion.

Love

[Spence Tepper]

Brian Ji
You published this..
""I have pointed out that you could compare Satsangis to Navy Seals. They train every day by meditating, they eat only certain things. Eventually, you should see some form of result. All I have seen are fat lazy Navy Seals. That training produces zero results. In fact I think it creates more psychological disorder."

You used this as a label for all Satsangis.

Rather than enlightenment, derision, not based on any hard data, just your opinion, even when there is so much light around you.

You wrote
" I came to have fairly frequent meetings with Gurinder Singh and high-level functionaries at the Dera, RSSB headquarters. My impression, based on specific interactions, was that they all were no better than ordinary people and sometimes worse as regards ethics, morality, honesty, and such."

But the testimony of others who experienced something much finer you dismiss.

You are seeing what you want to see,, cherry picking. And the picture isn't a positive or peaceful one.

" We do not see the world as it is. We see end world as we are. "
Anais Nin

But you could have surrounded yourself with kindness and love. It was also there.

You made your choice, you painted your own picture. You paint that scene over and over again in so many posts.

The painting is signed with your name alone.

The dreamer must dream their dream.

Continue sleeping.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Pema Tej

You asked
"But who are you to determine what is progress in meditation and what is not?"

Pema, it isn't my judgment at all.

It is Brian Ji's report that he had zero results from his mediation. And his conclusion this must be true for the rest of the world and worse, that any other reports are lies.

Zero experience? Sounds like sleep to me, not meditation.

[Generation77]

@Brian Hines

"Generation 77, share links where I've said that RSSB initiates never achieved anything with their meditation. I don't recall doing that. My criticism is of RSSB initiates claiming that their meditation proves the existence of a supernatural realm beyond the physical. Obviously meditation has effects on the meditator.That's why I reacted so strongly to Spence Tepper saying my own meditation had zero effects. That was absurd, a blatant lie."

Well, you're the one who has repeatedly claimed that Sant Mat meditation produces zero (truly transpersonal) effects, and you're doing so again right here. You and Spencer just disagree.

I get it that Spencer is a very ardent believer or, who knows, perhaps he's a very adept Sant Mat meditator who's had experiences that convinced him the transpersonal promises of the path are real as advertised. Or maybe Spencer is one of those cranks common to spiritual groups who talk one's ear off about their grasp of spiritual reality.

I also get it that having invested many years of your life into something, it's a bit irksome when someone casually accuses you of not trying, or not trying hard enough, or not doing it right. Such criticisms are common in my experience with the good people in Eckankar who didn't know anything about me but never tired of accusing me of being too immature to grasp "the eck."

My feeling though is that whatever his faults or presumptions, Spencer isn't a liar or a religious fundamentalist. He's simply countering your conclusions about Sant Mat with his own.

As I wrote previously, if Spencer's comments tick you off, consider where he received his point of view on the topic at hand. Charan Singh was the guy who adamantly preached that the path was everything Swami Ji and Sawan Singh said it was. Moreover, Charan was the guy who responded to every doubter about Sant Mat meditation with the directive that they were immature unenlightened souls who had no business analyzing the meditation, and if they weren't receiving the promised transpersonal results their own recourse was to do more meditation and honor the holy sacred promise they'd made to the Master at initiation.

Spencer didn't come up with that point of view, he's only the middleman.

[Spence Tepper]

Brian ji, Pema, AR
Isn't hating on people tiring?

Get a life.
(said with love... Truly)

[Brian Hines]

Spence, stop lying. I clearly explained in this blog post that I've had experiences every single day of the 52 years that I've practiced daily meditation. For some reason you continue to lie about what I said above. Clean up your act, because I have a very low tolerance for liars. Here's some of what I said:
--------------------
There are lots of different approaches to meditation. What I experienced during my 35 years of RSSB meditation was very close to, if not exactly, how Buddhist and Taoist teachings describe meditation. I felt my self slipping away, probably because I don't have or am a self. I felt a sense of unity with all things, probably because everything is interdependent. Mystics have all sorts of different experiences. I don't really consider myself a mystic, but I've certainly had mystical experiences that are very difficult to describe in words.
-------------------
Every day I meditate, continuing to the present -- today -- I have a decidedly-nonzero meditation experience. Just because it isn't your experience doesn't make it any less meaningful or valid for me.

[Appreciative Reader]

What?!! You ask me --- me! --- if hating on people isn't tiring?! Where on earth did that come from? Talk about strawmen!!

I cannot, at this point, help thinking there's something very wrong somewhere, Spence, for you to be randomly and blindly hitting out at people like this, with utterly wild insinuations and allegations.

[Roger]

Maybe, one day this thread will end, and we can move on to something else. The something else is so much better ..................

[Pema Tej]

Brian ji, Pema, AR
Isn't hating on people tiring?

Get a life.
(said with love... Truly)

Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 23, 2022 at 07:05 PM

Wasn't hating on you. Was simply sharing my opinion and observation with you.
Life happens,

[Back from the dead]

Spence
Brian’s meditation practice has given him sound, light, loss or self(ego) unity, visions of his loving mother and mystical experiences yet he doesn’t think it fulfilled the expectation he had when he started meditating and following a path(in this case RSSB) therefore he left it.
So the BIG question what the heck were you expecting???!

[Ahujahalava]

Spence Tepper reacted to my observations regarding who's being subject to false reasoning under the folly of ego aggrandized cognitive dissonance on this forum and who's not as follows.

"Hi Ahujahalava:
In the strongest possible terms I must disagree with your personal depictions of people with whom you disagree.

The ignorance you accuse them of we are all guilty of, and daily.

Brian Ji gave his life to RSSB. He has the right to change his mind, after all those years. He has plenty of his own evidence. He has earned the right.

And along the way Brian Ji has developed a significant reaction to any form of superstition or blind faith. Good on him!

He has earned the title Brian Ji!"

Yet here he is making similar accusation against the same people he's defending.

I think he needs to decide who he regards as his advisors and mentors because he's singing from very conflicting hymn sheets from one thread to the next.

[1st]

Brian sounds like you had some pretty spectacular results but got disillusioned by those who by your own admission don’t even follow the path as per instructed. So what do you expect??? Sounds like you dug your own hole there buddy.

[Ahujahalava]

The fundamental issue here is egoism, and worst type of egoism is that self aggrandized egoistic condition called 'spiritual ego'.

It's the basic reason why practitioners on a spiritual path are advised to NOT spout out about ANY form of inner experience in their quest for clarity in their process of achieving any progress in their personal practice of meditation.

Mostly people who pronounce a whole lot of inner enlightening revelations aren't very advanced in their quest for innermost experiences, if they had realized anything substantial they would certainly not advertise it in public places for fear of losing it.

[umami]

Maharaj Ji would never scold or taunt or criticize us for difficulty on the Path. He'd remind us we're suffering already because of separation from the Father.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji
You wrote of your experience in meditation...
"I felt my self slipping away, probably because I don't have or am a self. I felt a sense of unity with all things, probably because everything is interdependent."

Let me explain the difference between sleeping and progress.

Sleeping is when you enjoy that slipping away but aren't actually aware of what is going on around you and just enjoy the momentary bliss.

Meditation is when you observe that experience and as a result of your wakeful attention you are raised into the experience. In meditation, once you get to the eye center any focus at all results in movement. Then you realize things. You realize that you aren't who or what you thought you were. You are part of a larger whole, and you see yourself as nearly invisibly tiny. Yet here you are beyond that viewing all these people, all these planets, all these places all at once. It isn't just out of your body.

Once you have that experience of unity, awake, actually you can never call anyone a liar again.

You can never hate anyone again.

Anger becomes practically impossible for you..

Why? Because you are them. They are you. The tiny piece of you called "Brian" is smaller than an atom. The real you includes "Spence" and "777" and "AR" and "Jim" and everyone you never met and never will meet, and they are all inside your Master.

Had you actually had the experience of becoming one with all..
Or more accurately, had you been awake and observant, you would have changed.

You could never blame anyone for anything ever again.

You would in some ways become useless to the world, and then, finding a place here as that particle, it would be small but helpful and in harmony.

I can't be mad at you Brian Ji. I do admire and love you. I admire what you are trying to do. I see what you are trying to do.

Please keep at it... The anger can't go with you there. If you want that experience again, you will have to leave that off. And then the experience will change you forever. Make the effort to go there again, and this time take all you've learned about observation and stay awake and observe.

Those things change you permanently, if you are awake.

With that, I think I've completed my tour here.

I have nothing more here for you Brian Ji, except acceptance, and encouragement.

[Roger]

It's human to get angry. It's human to engage in sleeping exercises. In addition, it's human to engage in self examination of one's thoughts and actions. An examination that hopefully leads to something else that promotes the least amount of harm.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Spence,….”I’ve completed my tour here”,……..meaning? Just this thread, or exiting the Churchless Building? If the later, as Roger suggested, if you really believe you have teachings and meditation advise, or religious views that can influence and assist a much wider audience of mostly disgruntled Ex Sant Mat initiates, who read here, along with the very few uninitiated readers who are only curious who post only to admire their own postings,….which no one reads,……..why don’t you start your own Blog as I did, a decade or so ago, , as a place to archive some of your extensive writings that you have posted here in Brian’s Churchless Church, where your writings have a chance of attracting a possible much more appreciative audience.
I rarely post any thing new on my Blog, as I have run out of any thing new to share, unless I happen to get any new Revelations, but I checked my Blog Stats just now, and see that I have had just short of 60,000 readers that have read various Articles I have posted there.
You are a talented Writer. Don’t waste your talents in unproductive areas where they will. Be wasted and go un noticed.
https://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/?zx=a733d4d2986c40ce

[ahujahalava]

perhaps they've exhausted all the verbal gymnastics and tired out the intellectual analytics of how words strung together become figments of self opining attitudes fomenting character traits of oneupmanship where egos get hurt.

In the end all anyone is left with is themselves to face the reality in which a life worth living is a life worth dying for. that to die while living is the ultimate exercise worthy of pursuing for the sake of knowing who you are and what you're doing occupying a vessel of attributed vanity in a laborious process of ridding yourself of the attachment of hallucinogenic self worth.

[ahujahalava]

I guess life is fair after all

[1st]

I guess life is fair after all

Posted by: ahujahalava | June 24, 2022 at 04:47 PM

Why do you say rhis??

[ahujahalava]

@1st

there's a small aspect of human life which bears greatly on our psyche which basically reflects on how we operate and conduct our attitudes and reactions through the four score and ten (or more or less) years of sojourn in occupying a vessel of human condition and the human consequences of experience.

it's called gratitude
the previous head of the RSSB institution would refer to this aspect of human trait as 'a greatful heart' . without which not very much can come to fruition in realizing how we are connected to the core of everything.

therefore one assumes life surely is fair as you sow you reap as you give you take as you appreciate life and gratitude it gets attributed within our personality and how we operate and conduct our attitudes and how life and those who we communicate with and react to treat us in return.

[ahujahalava]

grateful heart . not greatful

[s*]

We all came from God (Brahman)
We all are Him..
We have a body and mind..
But we ´are´ not the body and mind.
We are Brahman and we seek in fact our way back to that state of ´Being´
The ONE...
What we really are..
<3

[E]

Anyone who is a judgmental arrogant See You Next Tuesday ....oh wait... IS typical of people claiming to be satsanghis.

[E]

@JimSutherland Good on you for creating a blog post of all your contributions here so they have a place to stand on their own. And for attracting 60k readers.
(I don't read many of the comments but it looks like people put a lot of time into commenting / argueing and if it can be for a worthy cause in the long run that would make it ptoductive.)

[El]

I really enjoyed this post.
I believe from what I have garnered from what it would mean to be a satsanghi is if a satsanghi reads Brian's blogposts they would do it with humility. They would believe that his journey is the result of his karmas and in their Teacher's hands, and they would only be loving toward him.
Brian is honest, forthcoming, and eager to understand all this journey might entail. Despite all he shares a satsanghi will follow the advice of their Teacher that we can never know another person, and will always be kind and loving.
It really is heartbreaking how mean, calculated, underhanded, petty, superior and conniving satsanghis are. It is surprising that anyone open and trusting can survive the experience too well.

[Willie Wiegelspies]

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.