How is it possible to prove the RSSB guru is a fraud?

A few days ago I got a message from someone who said this in her email regarding Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), the India-based religious organization headed up by a guru that I belonged to for 35 years.

I am not a member, my close friend has been a member for 5 years and I started to research it as I wanted to know more. That’s how I found your blog. Some of the things I’ve read are alarming and I found even the information on the RSSB official website disturbing.

 

My friend is very set on the organisation, and the master. I have tried to show her various posts regarding other peoples bad experiences and she is adamant that they’re all lies. 

 

I would love to be able to find some sort of evidence that shows this master is a fraud but it would have to be more than peoples experiences. Is there any information you could share with me which might help to open her eyes?

 

I am just someone who wants to help my friend, she is very vulnerable and I strongly believe she has been swayed during a time when she was fragile. 

This was my response.

 

Probably there’s no evidence regarding the guru that would convince your friend he’s a fraud. Someone has to come to that conclusion for themselves.

 

There’s plenty of evidence on my blog and the Internet, but true believers in RSSB just explain it away. The basic problem is that disproving the existence of something can be very difficult.

 

Is the guru God in Human Form? There’s no evidence of this, but of course there also isn’t any evidence disproving it. God works in mysterious ways, say believers. Even if the guru does bad stuff, that could just be God’s mysterious way — making hundreds of millions of dollars in a shady fashion, for example. Here’s one of many news stories.

 

https://www.businesstoday.in/latest/corporate/story/pay-up-singh-brothers-dues-in-30-days-delhi-hc-tells-rssb-chief-dhillon-wife-ex-religare-chief-godhwani-231660-2019-10-09

 

I’ve written a lot about the guru in the “Radha Soami Satsang Beas” category of my blog. One post included 27,000 words shared in comments on my blog from a RSSB insider who revealed a lot about the inner workings of RSSB and the guru. See:

 

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/07/devastating-criticism-of-gurinder-singh-dhillon-by-a-rssb-insider.html

 

I singled out financial dealings in this post:

 

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/03/rssb-gurus-shady-financial-dealings-were-known-on-this-blog-5-9-years-ago-1.html

 

But again, if your friend doesn’t want to open her eyes to all this, the blog posts and newspaper stories won’t make any difference. Keep trying, though. Eventually your efforts may help her see the reality of RSSB.

Comments

[777]

@Brian
For the result aimed at
She better avoid my comments

She might go up joining her friend!

Each (human) Soul is GIHF - That's IT
There is nothing that isn't God

777

[Appreciative Reader]

"You cannot reason someone out of a belief that they had never reasoned into in the first place." Or words to that effect. I don't remember whose words, but wise words they are. Words which one sees clearly proved, time and time again, both IRL as well as right here.

So that, as Brian suggests, and cynical and pessimistic though that sounds, it is likely enough that this lady, who has chosen to become a dupe of GSD's, will continue to remain a dupe even if she were hidden right inside GSD's closet, and saw with her own eyes GSD stealing money. I mean, the evidence Brian has presented right here on this blog, including the further links that are available here, is almost as persuasive as that. One would imagine that no one can possibly continue to remain a dupe after perusing that. And one would be wrong to imagine that, because the good God, in his infinite Wisdom (and his randomly capitalized epithets) has chosen to Create dupes for the express purpose of feeding the unscrupulous. To be dupes, and to remain dupes to the end of their lives, is their destiny, the entire purpose of their lives. Mysterious and Wonderful (and arbitrarily capitalized) are God's Ways.

On a more optimistic note: Same as above. And same as what Brian's said. There's LOTS of evidence out there, neatly collated in all of Brian's posts here, available under the RSSB section, that, should anyone have even half a working brain cells inside their heads, will send them running away as fast as they can from fraudulent "Masters" like these.

[Spence Tepper]

It would be difficult to prove Baba Ji is a fraud. It is not too difficult to prove he has helped millions of people by inspiring them to a method of meditation that many have found helpful and healthy.

I think it would be easiest to identify what you like and don't like in what you see. Your friend has the right to make their own decision, and for you to honor it, while sharing your own honest feelings. If you feel something isn't right, you should say it. There may be some truth in it.

Sant Mat doesn't have a fee, never requires payment of any kind, unless you want to buy a book or choose to make a donation. Donations can only be made by those initiated. No one else is even allowed to donate. That is unusual for most religious organizations, and a higher standard of ethics.

The vows include vegetarianism and no recreational drugs. These are very high ethical standards to lead a responsible life. The fourth vow is to lead a life of the highest ethical standards. All this is geared to reducing our harm to others and increasing our personal responsibility, and our capacity to be responsible and helpful.

There are several generations of Satsangis (those who have been initiatied into this path and who took the four vows), and many are very successful contributors to society. Satsangis are encouraged to donate their time and effort in their own communities.

The basic Sant Mat philosophy is sound and as many strong points: All religions and spirituality center around a power, the "Word" that permeates all things. Attention in meditation to the "Word" brings us closer to God, who is not a personality but this very power. The power is conscious.

You mention finding a few disturbing things in your review of the RSSB organization.

This last comment actually is most central to any effort to help a friend change course.

Meditation practice, of itself, is generally very healthy.

But whatever strikes you as off-putting, bring forward. But also, try to acknowledge whatever elements that seem to attract your friend. Acknowledge their perspective, and then, respectfully, add your own.

There is no data showing Baba Ji is a fraud. There is only data showing some of his relatives were involved in Fraud, using his bank account as a laundering portal, which you can read in Brian Ji's posts. Baba Ji is very wealthy, largely from business investment dealings, including property investment. It was the handling of some of these by his close relatives that turned out to be fraudulent.

You can watch him on Youtube and see how he handles questions. He always encourages forgiveness, tolerance and if anything, being harder on ourselves than others so that we can fully discharge our duties to them.

It is inevitable that many of us have found his advice helpful, and his personal model attractive.
When I first saw him it was an immense experience, as though he were the entire Empire State Building gently alighting on the stage. I saw light pouring out of him, right there on stage.

So, many Satsangis also have like experiences, and these can be very off-putting to everyone else.

I mention the above so that you can take my comments in that context.
None of us comment free of our experiences and conditioning. But do try your best to be objective, responsible and helpful to your friend.

[Spence Tepper]

The writer states
"I am just someone who wants to help my friend, she is very vulnerable and I strongly believe she has been swayed during a time when she was fragile."

If your friend has been on this path for five years have you known her during that entire period?

What drew her to the path and what effect has her involvement had on her?

This will be your strongest evidence in support of change.

Provoking anyone by trying to prove they are wrong should be considered carefully. What harm is being done to your friend and are you comfortable sharing that?

What does your friend find attractive or helpful from the path? Not a supernatural answer, but what practical benefits has she gained, in her view?

And have you known her long enough to make your own judgment.

Belief in a higher power and active involvement in religous practice is not necessarily a bad thing at all. In fact there are a few proven benefits such as lower stress and longer life.

https://news.stanford.edu/2020/11/13/deep-faith-beneficial-health/

So, these are people who believe in what any Atheist would call a fantasy. But it is a system that can be very healthy.

Be sensitive to those potential benefits in your friend, especially if you wish to have her hear you when you discuss what you see as problematic.

[spence tepper]

More about the medical benefits of Religious Practice that might help you understand some of the practical benefits your friend is enjoying, and to help you place your comments to her, and dialogue in a mutually understanding perspective.

https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)62799-7/fulltext#:~:text=Most%20studies%20have%20shown%20that,anxiety%2C%20depression%2C%20and%20suicide.

[lifeisfair?]

Yet, given this logic, one wonders why you would allow a book you wrote to still be published & sponsored by the very organization you advise others to disenfranchise from. That very book is a lead-in to the cult itself.

[Brian Hines]

lifeisfair?, I have nothing to do with the availability of Life is Fair. I spent several years working on the book as an act of seva, volunteer service, for Radha Soami Satsang Beas -- having been told that a small book about the karmic rationale for being a vegetarian was a wish of Charan Singh, the guru who initiated me in 1971 and who I had a lot of fondness for. It was a gift. What RSSB does with the gift was, and is, entirely up to Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

[lifeisfair]

I appreciate your response Mr. Hines. Is it possible that you could write them to have the book withdrawn given your various criticisms that the group is cultic? Perhaps your letter that the book should be taken out of circulation would have some impact?

[Brian Hines]

I guess you didn't read my reply to you closely. I said that I wrote the book as a gift, seva, volunteerism. I'm a vegetarian. Have been for 52 years. I'm glad that the book has helped inspire other people to be vegetarians. It's up to RSSB what they do with the book. Once a gift is given to someone, you don't tell the person what to do with the gift, especially when you're happy that the gift is being used, which I am.

[Dungeness]

@ A.R. [ There's LOTS of evidence out there, neatly collated in all of Brian's posts here, available under the RSSB section, that, should anyone have even half a working brain cells inside their heads, will send them running away as fast as they can from fraudulent "Masters" like these. ]

There's a scene from "Paper Chase" ('73) in which a hard-nosed law teacher tells
a student:

--- "Mister Hart, here is a dime. Take it, call your mother, and tell her there is serious
--- doubt about you ever becoming a lawyer."

There exists a stark difference between judicial fairness and pontificating that Brian
Ji's (and others') opining warrants a compelling legal case against GSD personally.
Ditto for news stories.

As for maligning brain-cell content of those not [running away as fast as they can
from fraudulent "Masters" like these], there's merit to soapboxing one's views here.
It reminds an audience to thank god there's a legal system to deal with advocates
of "witch hunts" and "hanging 'em high".

[lifeisfair]

I did read your reply and I still hold that if you think the organization is cultic then it would seem wise to advise them to withdraw the book since that very text may lead one to join or align with the said group. Saying it is a gift doesn't then mean that you are exempt from proffering your advice that the book should be withdrawn given that you think it may lead others to join the cult. I only say this because you write so much about the dangers of the organization and its guru/leadership. If the gift leads to a cult, is it really a gift? I realize that you like your text and you like vegetarianism, but what happens when one reads your book and gets persuaded to then join a group that you have regarded as cultic? Are we complicit when we lead others where we wish them not go?

[umami]

lifeisfair,

I get it. You rescue her from the evil vegetarians, and she falls helplessly into your loving arms! Good plan!

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Lifeasfair
You wrote
"but what happens when one reads your book and gets persuaded to then join a group that you have regarded as cultic?"

You statement makes several hypothetical assumptions. Nothing in Brian Ji's book promotes seeking initiation from a perfect Master nor is it a proof of Sant Mat or RSSB's validity.

It is a practical explanation of Karma and an encouragement to harm less.

That is a relatively universal principle of right action found in most cultures explained within the traditions of that culture.

Ahimsa, harmlessness, the hypocratic oath, "First, do no harm."

Are you familiar with the principle?

Any organization that promotes right action is doing good, even if it has its issues. Every organization on earth is so.

As for Brian Ji's book it is, like Brian Ji himself, tough on the reader, asking them to take full responsibility for their actions. In that way nothing has changed.

And those who read it gain. The book itself is a form of self-help and serving to this day.

[gurinderscam]

For me, one influential piece of "evidence" was a PDF document I reviewed a few years ago that showed some of Gurinder's and his family's financial records. It was some sort of a court filing I think, and I found it on this very website (Church of the Churchless). Maybe you can share that with the questioner if you know what I'm talking about?

[Truth be known]

Still propagating the same old myth and dogma from decades ago, Here's the latest from the RSSB.org website regarding GSD.

https://rssb.org/essay226.html#eng226

"...All saints have some karma to go through in this world, for without karma there can be no physical body; but mostly it is the portions of the karmas of their disciples that they take on themselves."

GSD in his Q&A emphatically states he doesn't take on anyone's karmas. Your karmas are yours and you have to go through them.

Why do they keep putting this out there...

[Andrew Stephens]

Good News!! Apparently Gurinder Singh Dhillon has medical problems. He has cancelled all satsangs and travel plans for 2022 - see the message on rssb.org. The sooner he chokes, the better.

[Dungeness]

@ Andrew Stephens [ The sooner he chokes, the better. ]

I can understand why someone rejoices in saving others from a
perceived cultic trap in rssb. But why wish misfortune or outright
harm to others... Surely that reveals we're in a darker place than
any outside enemy we conjure up.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Truth Be Known

You provided a quote from the RSSB website then added your own comment....

""...All saints have some karma to go through in this world, for without karma there can be no physical body; but mostly it is the portions of the karmas of their disciples that they take on themselves."

" GSD in his Q&A emphatically states he doesn't take on anyone's karmas. Your karmas are yours and you have to go through them.

"Why do they keep putting this out there..."

You misunderstand. There are three types of Karma: Kriya, what you create in this life through your actions; Pralabdh, the plan of Karmas for you that you must go through in this life; Sinchit, the total inactive storehouse of Karmas from which active Pralabdh are taken and into which active Kriya are added.

The vast majority of Karma is the Sinchit Karmas stored up over the entire creation. Those the Master takes responsibility for. This is forgiven. He/she can erase them entirely, have you burn some of them in meditation, have you burn through some in this or a subsequent life, or any combination of the above.

The Pralabdh Karma planned for this life, however, you must go through. No one can remove those, though the Master can rearrange them, lighten them to some extent, and then through meditation you can become very strong and entirely protected so they don't affect you and do you don't feel the pain but only a small pin prick, and so you won't react as badly as you otherwise might. But Pralabdh Karmas you must go through. All Masters of the Word have taught this for all time.

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
Matthew 5:17-18

Anyway, this is Sant Mat philosophy. You may take it however you like.

But as to your claim that any of the teachings have changed, they have not on this particular account.

[Spence Tepper]

Pralabdh, planned
Krita, created
Sinchit,. storehouse..

Three types of Karma.
Pralabdh you must go through.

[Andrew Stephens]

Replying to Dungeness:
As you put it: "... wish misfortune or outright harm to others ..." is an incorrect assumption.

We have watched the direction GSD has taken in the past 32 years. The teachings of Sant Mat are a mystic philosophy that can be practiced by people of any religion or no religion. When Charan Singh was the spiritual leader of Sant Mat, he was the embodiment of love and compassion. He replied to all correspondence, made himself available in person whenever possible. He was a hands on leader - friendly, welcoming, and he had a great sense of humor.
When GSD made his first visit to North America, we attended satsang in San Francisco. We had to pass through a metal detector before entering the venue! From the start, GSD has been focused on security, restricting photography and keeping a distance from satsangis.
Over the years, he has become mired in scandals. He has built a huge bureaucracy to deal with sangat matters. On his watch, the Dera has morphed into a theme park, described on TripAdvisor as "Heaven on Earth". Solar panels, hospitals, and the numerous other activities have nothing to do with the teachings of Sant Mat. There is absolutely no need for rssb to be involved with the United Nations as a Non Profit Organization. Science of the Soul is described as a "sister organization" - the tail is wagging the dog. Best of all is "online seva", which means sending money to rssb. Reminds me of the Catholic Church selling indulgences in the middle ages. Years ago, GSD lost the moral authority to serve as the spiritual leader of Sant Mat.

[Appreciative Reader]

Hi Dungeness.

I'm afraid I find the reasoning in your comment addressed to me ...somewhat dodgy. But I agree fully with the sentiment you express in your second comment (not addressed to me).

It's true that the judiciary has the last word in matters sub judice. As it should. But: First, the law is sometimes/often an ass, and the implementation by courts of law as well, especially in countries where legal standards are not quite as sound as in some other places (not that they're uniformly sound in those other places as well). More importantly, your implicit reasoning will indicate that no one should ever come to any kind of conclusion ever pending legal judgment; which POV is patently ridiculous. For instance, the two stooges, the two fraternal dupes of GSD, if they're cleared of wrongdoing and liabilities by not just the Indian courts but Singapore as well, then I'll be happy to concede they were in the right. In GSD'S case, it is a clear case of an influential and unscrupulous man gaming a corrupt system to avoid having legal due process take its course. Don't tell me you scrupulously avoid coming to any kind of decision ever, even if provisionally, outside of what the courts in some country pronounce: that's a patently ridiculous argument, and a transparently self-serving (attempted) spin.

I agree with your second comment, though. To wish death and suffering in general terms on someone isn't a very pretty thing to be doing. Even someone as bereft of worth like Trump, while I'd be happy to see him bankrupted with legal liabilities off of his shenanigans coming home to roost, or even rot in prison, but I hope I will never rejoice if some general, unrelated misfortune befalls him. Even someone as actually evil and murderous as Putin, while I'd welcome his dropping dead of his cancer as a means to putting an end to this unending ongoing carnage he has unleashed in Ukraine, but I hope I will never find myself rejoicing at some general, unrelated suffering visited on to him, outside of that narrow focused specific context. Likewise, I agree with your sentiment that to rejoice at reports of GSD's illness is in questionable taste and does not speak very well of someone who admits to such.

[Appreciative Reader]

Ha ha, yes, the selling indulgences thing. Agreed, Andrew, that was probably one of the low points of the (RC) Church, that's beset with shameful low points aplenty. And agreed, the parallel is obvious, when you see people flogging donations and tithes and offerings to God for "merit", however defined and however (attempted to) explain away.

[Dungeness]

@ A.R. [ In GSD'S case, it is a clear case of an influential and unscrupulous man gaming a corrupt system to avoid having legal due process take its course. Don't tell me you scrupulously avoid coming to any kind of decision ever, even if provisionally, outside of what the courts in some country pronounce: that's a patently ridiculous argument, and a transparently self-serving (attempted) spin. ]

Hi A.R. - I indulge freely in pronouncing Trump guilty extrajudicially so I agree partly.
However, in GSD's case, and unlike Trump, he oversees a vast org with a sizeable
coterie of usual suspects in his orbit. All of them had opportunities and reasons to
game the system and keep GSD out of the loop if engaged in malfeasance.

Could GSD have been more transparent? Possibly, but I'm not qualified to judge so I
don't and sure as hell am not ready to indict the whole of India's judicial apparatus
as hopelessly corrupt and facilitating a cover-up of GSD for political favor. Nor am I
eager to follow conspiracy theories that he masterminded a criminal cabal to defraud
companies or hired goons to threaten others. Innuendo and sketchy news reports
and whispers of "everyone knows he's guilty" just won't cut it.

[777]

If HE were bad, . . HE would not be a little bit of BAD
but very very BAD

So, . . like in N;Korea's , in Russia, and so many more cases
Brian wouldn't exist anymore or at least suffer

When I saw him for the first time, I didn't accept HIM
but I was struck by HIS enormous honest & pure radiation

Later on HE Joined dear Charan in my meditation & now 24/7.

Experiencing this , I cannot conclude otherwise than that HE was deceived
about finances
Still HE lets Mega $$ rain for help the covid victims ( not only satsangis )

So, He human_ like made financial 'trust'_errors and in my opinion
also errors on vaccinations which caused more victims than Covid-19
and might HE might have vax effects which can give extreme physical weakness
for years
I explained here about the historic number of deaths, autists & life long migraine since Louis Pasteur

777
PS
Is it possible to prove tangibly that Jesus was a Fraud
HE disrupted the stockmarket in the temple !
HE corrupted the wine market using water
not to speak about out_law gravity manipulations

It has a name , I forgot how leaders of big organisations fail 100%
obtaining the truth , like Putin

[Spence Tepper]

A good actor on stage plays a role.
They follow their script scrupulously.
They are focused entirely on their goal. They put their heart and soul into their performance. And they perform truthful to the role, as best they understand it.

No sane audience members say "that's a lie, he is a fraud! He is just acting!"

The audience members themselves are actors on a stage, frauds each in their own way, but as they are dreaming they have no understanding. They hardly know themselves. And what they do know they hardly admit.

Three principles of human life...
1. The bee robs the flower or seeds.
2. The gods grant the wishes of those they would destroy.
3. The dark room you shout at is filled with hidden candles. Don't shout at the darkness, light a candle.
4. The power of life is in you.

[Spence Tepper]

The bee robs the flower it seeds.

[googlecash]

I wonder how long the guru will stay out of prison -- indeed, continue on how many more years without a single court case against him convicting him of criminal acts -- before this blogger finally admits his many allegations "proving" Gurinder Singh is a criminal were just calumny.

Perhaps blind guru belief is a sickness, but then perhaps so are militant attacks on religious figures that are based on nothing more than allegations and speculation.

In any case, the blogger obviously hasn't watched many of Gurinder's videos, where he explicitly tells satsangis that he is a figurehead for religious devotion. Maybe it would be fruitful to contrast Gurinder's deconstruction of the RSSB guru role with what his predecessor said about himself. Doing so might reveal that the "fraud" charge is red herring.

[googlecash]

@ Stephens:

"When GSD made his first visit to North America, we attended satsang in San Francisco. We had to pass through a metal detector before entering the venue! From the start, GSD has been focused on security, restricting photography and keeping a distance from satsangis."

You clearly aren't aware of the photos of Charan Singh where he's flanked by a security detail carrying machine guns. Did you likewise not know that the dera was shut down for several years under CS's watch for security reasons?

As for Charan Singh "answering every letter," he's on tape in the early 70s telling satsangis that "it'no longer possible" for him to personally answer correspondence because of the volume of letters sent to the dera.

The comments that the RSSB dera has grown too large are not new, and a frequent criticism by Charan initiates. What a baffling criticism. None of these Charan initiates had any problem whatever with the existence of the dera when Charan was alive. Indeed, they cheered the dera's grown under Charan's direction.

It often happens that one guru is absolutely beloved, and his successor is absolutely hated. Happens is so many spiritual groups, even though there's not a penny's worth of difference between the gurus. I could explain this phenomenon but few would be interested.

[umami]

"It has a name , I forgot how leaders of big organisations fail 100%
obtaining the truth , like Putin"

777,

Confirmation bias?
Groupthink?
Bandwagon effect?
Courtesy bias?
Obedience bias?

So many cognitive biases! Here's a list.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

[777]

@UNMANI

That was an impressive article U linked me too

I didn t find the specific name
but go again tomorrow
It s really fascinating that once somebody
is in power the information stream is cut off
and one is totally like red is green . . :-)

Further Thank you again for your advice
on my feet
I had just used the brian_google link frame using socks to re-find
I knew is was U or You Sir
Are You a Doctor
( if not I have to stop that - hilarious - :-)

77

[umami]

7,

I'm a massage therapist. There was a little Chinese Medicine in my training. Then I studied Ayurveda for a year. Honestly, I don't remember how I dreamed up the foot suggestion. Umami Medicine is a mystery even to me.

[umami]

7,

Anyway, not a doctor. Haha!

Open Thread 35! I remember trying to find an answer in Chinese Medicine and somehow came across an article about wearing socks to bed...
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321125

[umami]

"It s really fascinating that once somebody
is in power the information stream is cut off
and one is totally like red is green . . :-)"

https://oll.libertyfund.org/quote/lord-acton-writes-to-bishop-creighton-that-the-same-moral-standards-should-be-applied-to-all-men-political-and-religious-leaders-included-especially-since-power-tends-to-corrupt-and-absolute-power-corrupts-absolutely-1887

"Lord Acton writes to Bishop Creighton in a series of letters concerning the moral problem of writing history about the Inquisition. Acton believes that the same moral standards should be applied to all men, political and religious leaders included, especially since, in his famous phrase, 'power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely':

"'I cannot accept your canon that we are to judge Pope and King unlike other men, with a favourable presumption that they did no wrong. If there is any presumption it is the other way against holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility. Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority: still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it. That is the point at which the negation of Catholicism and the negation of Liberalism meet and keep high festival, and the end learns to justify the means. You would hang a man of no position, like Ravaillac; but if what one hears is true, then Elizabeth asked the gaoler to murder Mary, and William III ordered his Scots minister to extirpate a clan. Here are the greater names coupled with the greater crimes. You would spare these criminals, for some mysterious reason. I would hang them, higher than Haman, for reasons of quite obvious justice; still more, still higher, for the sake of historical science.'"

It cuts both ways though. These days I worry more whether I'm the fraud.