Back in May I wrote about a streaming series on Hulu, "Under the Banner of Heaven." In the title of that post I called it a compelling story of religion gone bad.
The series is based on a true story, the murder of a young woman and her baby at the hands of extremely fundamentalist Mormons.
Last night my wife and I watched the final episode. It tied things together nicely, and was the most philosophical of any episode in how the characters talked about atheism and religious belief.
Detective Jeb Pyre, a devout Mormon white guy, has a Native American partner, Bill Taba. Taba is a professed atheist. He doesn't even believe in the message of a tribal chant he sings near the end of the final episode.
He simply says that he likes the sound of it, so he sings it now and then.
The Mormons are constantly referring to Heavenly Father this and Heavenly Father that, since "Heavenly Father" is how they refer to God.
What we see in the final episodes is the danger of believing that your thoughts and intentions are coming from Heavenly Father. This is the same risk that comes when anyone of any faith embraces the delusion that God or God's messenger is communicating with them directly.
Sure, people can do crazy things and believe crazy stuff even without believing that God is behind their doing and believing. But fanaticism is more likely to take hold of someone when they think they're doing God's bidding.
That's what happens with the murderous Mormons.
They're discussing how to handle some members of their family who aren't considered to be sufficiently devoted to what the fundamentalists consider the true original teachings of the Mormon Church. Then their leader plays the Heavenly Father card.
He says, basically, "I've heard from Heavenly Father and he wants them to be killed." That pretty much ends the discussion, since no one wants to go against Heavenly Father's will.
Of course, Taba views this as totally bizarre from his atheist perspective, while Pyre is better able to understand what's going on, being a Mormon himself. As the series progresses, Pyre takes an increasingly loose view of Mormonism, since his investigation into the murders shows the danger of religious fundamentalism.
I really liked a scene where Taba and Pyre are driving along in their police vehicle, trying to figure out where the Mormon murderers are going to strike next and how they can be found before they kill again.
Taba gets fed up with all the talk from Pyre about Heavenly Father, even though Pyre isn't a fundamentalist Mormon. Taba pulls the car over in a remote area and stalks away to an overlook. Pyre walks after him.
Taba tells Pyre (I'm paraphrasing), "Look at this beautiful nature, Jeb. That's what it is, natural. No Heavenly Father needed. Stop thinking that you have to invoke Heavenly Father to figure out what's going on with this case. Use your brain. Your natural brain. Forget all that Heavenly Father bullshit."
That leads to a breakthrough, now that Pyre has eliminated some unnecessary Mormonism from his detective consciousness.
After the murderous Mormons have been apprehended, Pyre is shown taking his elderly mother for an outing to a gorgeous spot. I recall it was a pristine lake with mountains in the background. His devout Mormon mother says something like, "Oh, look at what Heavenly Father has given us. It's so beautiful."
But Pyre is looking at life differently now. He tells her, "Mom, forget Heavenly Father. Isn't it enough that you and I are together right now?" She says with a sense of relief while hugging him, as if a religious weight has been lifted from her also, "Yes, Jeb, yes. It's enough."
Here's a You Tube video about the finale, with mentions about the religious aspects.
"What we see in the final episodes is the danger of believing that your thoughts and intentions are coming from Heavenly Father. This is the same risk that comes when anyone of any faith embraces the delusion that God or God's messenger is communicating with them directly."
" Sure, people can do crazy things and believe crazy stuff even without believing that God is behind their doing and believing. But fanaticism is more likely to take hold of someone when they think they're doing God's bidding."
I think fanaticism takes hold of anyone who believes for any reason they are right and time and again refuses to acknowledge uncomfortable truths. That may be a popular opinion, but it is no less fantatical.
The very idea of God as the superior being gives some true devotees pause before believing their own opinions.
But I suggest it is the dogmatic individual, who only thinks in black and white, who judges only by what they approve of, who doesn't like the way some people think and who wishes to judge others for their thinking, the thought policeman or policewoman, who is the greater danger and who has generated quite a bit of harm as well.
It is the lack of self-awareness that leads some individuals to believe their own propaganda, who believe their opinion about others is Truth, who are far more at risk of thinking they own truth, dismissing the experiences of others, allowing themselves permission to violate others.
I argue that believing in God, in a personal and real relationship with God isn't the problem.
The problem is anyone, theist or atheist, believing that they know better than you or I about what is right for you and I.
There is the greater danger.
They may have no belief in God at all. Our they may claim they believe in God, but do not humble themselves and their own thinking daily before a higher source, whether internally or externally.
The factors causing anyone to believe they know better than other people what is right for those people is the real danger. I suggest the personality traits behind that kind of thinking can be uncovered readily among folks who do not live as good scientists, who acknowldge they don't know everything and who live their lives as a journey of discovery and unvestigation, within and outside.
People with an open mind are your safest bet.
People with a closed mind are where you find fanatics.
I challenge you to back up this claim you have made Brian Ji:
"But fanaticism is more likely to take hold of someone when they think they're doing God's bidding."
I believe this is a fake news claim, and that fanaticism that harms innocent people, that ignores the experience of innocent people, can be found regardless of claimed religious or atheist affiliation.
And mostly among those who do not live a life of humble introspection and observation.
" But my experience suggests that the outsize attention paid to the shooter’s particular beliefs obscures the real connections between mass shooters. What binds them together and elevates their likelihood of killing in this particular fashion is a history of antisocial, sometimes violent conduct, not any particular belief set."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/09/14/what-do-most-mass-shooters-have-in-common-hint-it-isnt-politics-video-games-or-religion/
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 17, 2022 at 07:34 AM
>> The problem is anyone, theist or atheist, believing that they know better than you or I about what is right for you and I.<<
Hahahaha ....
Posted by: um | June 17, 2022 at 07:37 AM
. I suggest the personality traits behind that kind of thinking can be uncovered readily among folks who do not live as good scientists, who acknowldge they don't know everything and who live their lives as a journey of discovery and unvestigation, within and outside.
People with an open mind are your safest bet.
People with a closed mind are where you find fanatics.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 17, 2022 at 10:27 AM
Problems with the blog posting / deleting...
Should read...
" I suggest the personality traits behind that kind of thinking can be uncovered readily among folks who do not live as good scientists, who do not acknowldge openly they don't know everything and who don't live their lives as a journey of discovery and investigation, within and outside.
People with an open mind are your safest bet.
People with a closed mind are where you find fanatics.
But even so, for those of us with a scientific mind set, it is much more interesting to hear directly from all views..Directly from those people, rather than trying to paint the picture of other people you don't like. Which is hopelessly a slanted fiction.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 17, 2022 at 10:31 AM
Spence,
I'm all for quiet introspection and observation, but politicians and their enablers do use religion to encourage and justify murder. Something must be wrong with religion to make people susceptible. Perhaps the problem is with idolatry of Politician, Preacher and Scripture - an unholy trinity masquerading as a higher source.
"Putin quotes Jesus to justify invasion of Ukraine"
https://theweek.com/russia/1011510/putin-quotes-jesus-to-justify-invasion-of-ukraine
"Pat Robertson says Putin was ‘compelled by God’ to invade Ukraine to fulfill Armageddon prophecy"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/01/pat-robertson-putin-god-russia-ukraine/
My conclusion: a closed-minded atheist is inherently less dangerous than a closed-minded theist, because the atheist can never claim divine authority and must argue from reason. Reason, therefore, is inherently less dangerous than religion, and religion more likely to inspire violence.
Posted by: umami | June 17, 2022 at 10:37 AM
I watched the first episode of Under the Banner and couldn't watch any more of it. I feel it was very unfair to the LDS religion at large. I base that on having read Krakauer's book as well as several books critical of Mormonism, such as Fawn Brodie's No Man Knows My History (a biography of Joseph Smith, highly worth reading).
Posted by: Generation77 | June 17, 2022 at 12:12 PM
Hi Umami
You wrote
"the atheist can never claim divine authority and must argue from reason."
Why must they argue from reason? They can just make shit up and call it reason. The fanatic can claim authority from science that is actually fake science. They can claim authority from their nationality that just serves their own nation at the cost of the world. They can claim authority from their ethnic superiority, when their ethnicity has nothing to do with their progress. They can claim their superior technology or superior economy gives them the right to usurp power and deny human rights. They can make any bullshit excuse, including their genetic superiority as white males.... And the greatest bullshit excuse of these is that they justify their conclusion they are are using superior reason, as superior to others, therefore they have the right to use force.
And that is false.
But to those who really are fanatics I say...
go on believing you are smarter because you are white. And the others are not.
Go on believing you are more rational because you are male. And the others are not.
Go on making laws that favor you because you are straight and hurting them because they are not.
Go on clinging to that tiny shed of pride because your army killed more of their army.
Go on holding tightly to your sense of superiority because you are alive today, smarter because you know better than those of they past who were stupid, and have all died.
I tell you, it is all bullshit. It is just ignorance.
Anyone can simply claim reason without actually using it. Hitler claimed the scientific superiority of the Arian race was the reason for murdering Jews. It was all bullshit.
I don't see how claiming any excuse for taking power over others has any excuse at all.
Reason is just a very good prostitute who will assume any position for a fee. And reason has been servicing Atheists and Theists alike.
Fanatics both Atheist and Theist both pay for the services of Reason. And she serves them both richly.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 17, 2022 at 12:52 PM
Spence, religion is a particularly dangerous form of fundamentalism for a couple of reasons. Yes, it's true that any form of dogmatic belief impervious to reason and open discussion is dangerous. Communism in China and North Korea are examples in a secular sense. But note the attempts to elevate Dear Leader to a quasi-religious status. The leader of North Korea supposedly got a bunch of holes-in-one the first time he played golf, because he's supposed to be a more-than-human dictator.
Religion plays an even more central role in the lives of religious fundamentalists. They tend to view almost everything through the lens of their religious dogmatism. I fell prey to that myself when I was a believer for 35 years in the teachings of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. I'd be late to a meeting, then find an open parking space in a crowded downtown, and think "Thank you, Master," figuring that my guru smoothed the way for me. Crazy from my current perspective. Made sense from my past religious perspective.
The more space in our mind that's occupied by very difficult to change beliefs is space that can't be used for a flexible open examination of what reality is all about. Fundamentalist religions close off a lot of space. For example, recently I talked with a LGBTQ-rights activist about the Salem Alliance Church in my city. The church teaches that same sex marriage is a sin, as is same-sex sex. We agreed that there's no point in trying to change the minds of church leaders, because their bigotry is based on biblical passages they consider inerrant, impossible to be wrong.
Sometimes it is the pronouncements of a guru or other religious leader that are viewed as inerrant, impossible to be wrong, since the leader is considered to be privy to other-worldly wisdom. This is particularly dangerous, given that followers of the leader will be very reluctant to challenge him/her if they believe their salvation is at stake. And in the case of "Under the Banner of Heaven," as I said in this blog post sometimes religious believers consider that THEY, not just the leader of the religion, are getting messages direct from God or a higher power.
This not only can cause other people to follow them blindly, it can cause the believer to be blind to their own grip on reality -- as they think the voice in their head, which really is just their own mind, is the voice of God or a higher power.
Posted by: Brian Hines | June 17, 2022 at 01:10 PM
Hi Brian Ji
Yes to 90% of what you wrote.
We can all easily succumb to irrational thinking, swayed by emotion, anger, pride, fear, lust, jealousy and desire.
Fanatics who usurp power over others and try to justify it can and will use whatever emotional appeal that can find, including the beliefs of those around them. Beliefs in God, in being white males, in being Americans (or in Hitler's case "Good Germans"), etc. Ie, Propaganda, which is always slanted and false information, or fake news, is the basis for controlling whole societies and moving them in very destructive directions.
But your claim that this is a unique problem among those who hear or see God is a very simplistic view that bears examination.
It may be the fanatic doesn't actually believe this and are simply saying it to gain authority over those around them. They create their own propaganda using such claims and have no shame doing so simply because it is a lie and they have no fear of any actual God's wrath. Because they don't actually believe in God.
People use whatever information as propaganda to influence those around them. That is an individual who is trying to manipulate others.
Religion is just one avenue. Politics is another. This can happen in science. Arthur Jenson found his research on race and IQ fully funded in the sixties, and his conclusion, that whites possessed higher IQ than blacks, a result his supporters loved. Now it had the authority of Science! But it was propaganda.
People use religion, science, politics, nationalism all as the basis of psychological authority to manipulate others. And the basic tool they use is propaganda.
But rather than target this, you have chosen to target those who have a personal and very real relationship to God.
I would suggest doing more to understand the full range of that experience. Invite their testimony here.
You will find those who depend on that relationship precisely because they understand their own flawed judgment at a level most other folks are not aware of. In otherwords, their level of self awareness may be higher, not lower, than others who do not have such a relationship.
That relationship for many is just to help them live harmless lives without attempting to manipulate others, even the normal level of manipulation that happens all the time among those insensitive each other.
By not acknowldging the range of spiritual experience, cherry picking an extremely harmful example of an individual who may have no actual belief in God. is simply another form of propaganda.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 17, 2022 at 02:01 PM
One minor point, Brian Ji
You wrote
"as they think the voice in their head, which really is just their own mind, is the voice of God or a higher power."
It is always a part of themselves. Maybe the better part, hopefully. The part connected to everything else. The past that honors all people, creatures and things.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 17, 2022 at 02:05 PM
@ Brian [ I'd be late to a meeting, then find an open parking space in a crowded downtown, and think "Thank you, Master," figuring that my guru smoothed the way for me. Crazy from my current perspective. Made sense from my past religious perspective. ]
There's an irreligious -dare I say "Irish" option- related by Ishwar Puri.
It seems an Irishman needing to attend an important meeting and very
desperate, promised God in return he'd cut back drinking and go to
Mass if God found him a parking spot. Just as he finished, a parking
spot opened. Not missing a beat, the Irishman crossed himself and
uttered "Never mind, Lord. I found one!"
Posted by: Dungeness | June 17, 2022 at 02:59 PM
Brian Ji, in that tv show, was the hero the one who thought for themselves and used their own judgment and rational thinking?
Or did they have some other leader they followed?
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 17, 2022 at 07:41 PM
Spence,
The road to "People use religion, science, politics, nationalism all as the basis of psychological authority to manipulate others. And the basic tool they use is propaganda" was long and torturous, but it's good we got there.
Posted by: umami | June 17, 2022 at 09:07 PM
I wonder why we intelligent human beings have so much trouble seeing the obvious, the obvious being as the character Taba tells Pyre,"Look at this beautiful nature, Jeb. That's what it is, natural. No Heavenly Father needed” - and that's about it. The natural reality that we can all experience including the natural reality of ourselves is so obvious – except for the fact that (probably due to our fears and anxieties and wanting to be special) we seek and believe intangible stories from our culturally conditioned minds.
I think we definitely tend to ignore the fact that our conceptual forming abilities that have given us such an evolutionary advantage, have developed to the point where our concepts, our beliefs and opinions have become more important to maintain than our physical selves.
We do seem to spend a great deal of energy maintaining a ‘me’ (an ‘I’, a ‘self’ – or ego) that is a mere mental construct. The ‘me’ has to maintain itself, has to be right and to do this it searches for certainty, often through some belief structure or formula that appears to give credence to maintaining the separate, 'special self' illusion.
It would be nice to think that in the not-to-distant future, we could further evolve to the point where we can accept the reality that we are just another species shaped by nature to survive and to move away from the ego-self's predominance of believing us to be a special creation – with all its supernatural baggage.
Posted by: Ron E. | June 18, 2022 at 02:28 AM
Finding a connection to reality within ourselves, by painstakingly putting our thinking aside, is not the same as creating conceptual notions. If we are flawed in our thinking about what we experience, how much more so about things we have no experience of, and worse still when we judge what we do not understand about other people.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 18, 2022 at 02:47 AM
Hi Ron E:
Great comments!
You wrote
"I wonder why we intelligent human beings have so much trouble seeing the obvious, the obvious being as the character Taba tells Pyre,"Look at this beautiful nature, Jeb. That's what it is, natural. No Heavenly Father needed” - and that's about it."
No. There is more there. Much more. And with humility before that Reality, we can explore, adventure, journey, and discover, uncover, investigate, and learn.
There IS more there. The Scientist has the answer, though they are still investigating. But their approach is right. Reality is more important than what we individually would like.
Learning about Reality is more like deflating a balloon so that it fits into its original package.
So, "No Taba, there is far more here than you or I can know. And it is far more important than any tiny thing you or I might want or like. Far more than we can control, manipulate for our purposes. The system here is, in its way, perfect, but we always want to change it before understanding it. We should not try to judge from here. We should both be working on our own journeys first and foremost to integrate with it in balance with it, rather than deny it, enslave it, control it, manipulate it."
You wrote:
"We do seem to spend a great deal of energy maintaining a ‘me’ (an ‘I’, a ‘self’ – or ego) that is a mere mental construct. The ‘me’ has to maintain itself, has to be right and to do this it searches for certainty, often through some belief structure or formula that appears to give credence to maintaining the separate, 'special self' illusion."
The deeper we investigate reality, either inner or outer, the smaller we become, and the more connected. Our conscious identity is a fraction of this thinking brain's function, and its various intelligences, including our subconscious, and the intelligences built into every part of our body and every creature, even every plants' body. And we are all connected. The entire biosphere of this planet is a single living organism.
If you like fiction, read Solaris by Stanislaw Lem. He tells the story of a team of scientists who fly across the Galaxy and discover a planet that is in love with all living creatures, including the crew. Indeed the Planet is one entire creature. The Planet, attempting to connect and communicate with them, gives them what they want, tries to feed them what they dream of, and unfortunately, they respond in small, petty and ultimately fatal ways. But that is all meaningless to the Planet which reaches out to them still, even as they run from her to escape.
One scientist eventually escapes...or does he?
They fail to communicate with the Planet because they are always attempting to do so on human terms, not on the Planet's terms, even while the Planet is reaching out to them all the time.
"We are humanitarian and chivalrous; we don't want to enslave other races, we simply want to bequeath them our values and take over their heritage in exchange. We think of ourselves as the Knights of the Holy Contact. This is another lie. We are only seeking Man. We have no need of other worlds. We need mirrors."
— Solaris
And when you are done with that you can read Lem's more famous and lighter fare, his space comedy, "Perx the Pilot"
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 18, 2022 at 09:22 AM
On the one hand it is maddening that none of us know anything 'for sure' .....some points of view really need to be wrong. Man has always tried to manipulate man and narcissists-with-a-tinge-of-psychopathy have loved the power they wield with religion.
Some of us are sure sick of the threat of ANY BELIEF with the mysterious after-life consequences, let alone the debilitating 'it's all karma'. Will it be a relief when things 'fade into black' (the atheist point of view)? It is a new experience for me to think I do like the idea that some pricks will get pay-back for this life.
But back to right now: suddenly life is getting shorter and shorter. And I"m finding that I'm seeing the possibility in things about this planet and the corrupt beings on it that I hadn't considered before covid.
Thanks for sharing about this show. I have avoided most of mass media for decades... just don't like how it manipulates my emotions.
Posted by: El | June 18, 2022 at 09:46 AM
"I wonder why we intelligent human beings have so much trouble seeing the obvious..."
In a word, Ron (or two words, actually): Cognitive dissonance.
----------
"It would be nice to think that in the not-to-distant future, we could further evolve to the point where we can accept the reality that we are just another species shaped by nature to survive and to move away from the ego-self's predominance of believing us to be a special creation – with all its supernatural baggage."
Amen!
(Hallelujah, even, should we live to see that day!)
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | June 18, 2022 at 09:54 AM
"Finale of 'Under the Banner of Heaven' shows absurdity of religion"
-----
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. (Voltaire, apparently. I knew the quote, but had to look up who it was said it.)
Cross-eyed morons who can believe the LDS story, can be fed any amount of absurdities, and can be manipulated to do just about anything. Those two, in my book, are craziest religions, and the suckers who buy into them the stupidest of all of the religious dupes in the world: this Mormon nonsense, and Scientology. Those who can't see through these two utterly transparent pieces of charlatanry really truly need to get their heads examined.
Those who can get around to believing that transparent load of BS, and to actually leading their lives basis that infantile doctrine, is it any wonder that they can end up doing things like this?
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | June 18, 2022 at 10:47 AM
"One 25-year- study of practicing California Mormons by James Enstrom and Lester Breslow of UCLA found that Mormon men and women who were married, had never smoked, attended church weekly and had at least 12 years of education had some of the lowest death rates ever reported for any group followed for that long a time.
"Mormon women in the study had a life expectancy of more than 86 years— five years longer than comparable women overall; men lived to an average of more than 84 years, which was almost a decade longer."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/post/mormonism-good-for-the-body-as-well-as-the-soul/2012/06/20/gJQARk3IqV_blog.html
" This is our religion--it’s our way of life,” said Vicki Eckersell, 29. “Not only do we reap the benefits at end by living longer, but we live a healthier life throughout our lives. We don’t have any addictions or health problems related to addictions.”
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-04-26-me-52680-story.html
"There is a large and growing body of literature on the relationship between religious involvement and health outcomes. For the most part, religious involvement (e.g. church attendance or church membership) is associated with better physical and mental health and longer survival (George, Ellison and Larson, 2002). A meta-analysis of data from 42 studies from diverse populations found that religious involvement was significantly associated with lower mortality and the strength of the association was similar to that found for other psycho-social factors (McCullough et al., 2000). These studies have clarified the ways by which religion benefits health and divided them into four possible mechanisms: health practices, social support, psychosocial resources and a sense of coherence or meaning. The work of Hummer and his colleagues (Hummer et al., 1999) illustrates that social ties and behavioral factors mediate the relationship between religious involvement and mortality.
"Durkheim’s seminal work on suicide (Durkheim, 1951) was among the first to advance the thesis that social support and integration are important factors affecting health status. This sociological insight has been confirmed by many investigators, including Waite and Lehrer (Waite and Lehrer, 2003) who recently reviewed the health benefits of both marriage and religion. In terms of religion, they cite a comprehensive body of research that documents an association between religious involvement and improved health status, including life expectancy. They note that religious affiliation may affect health outcomes because adherents to a faith have access to a network of people who may provide social resources, behavioral norms and instrumental support. Similarly, Jarvis and Northcott (Jarvis and Northcutt, 1987) indicate that people who attend church are more likely to be married, to be involved in a network of friendships, and to participate in social activities compared to those who do not attend services regularly. These attributes all work to improve the well being of individuals who have a religious attachment in relation to those lacking such an affiliation."
https://www.cairn.info/revue-annales-de-demographie-historique-2004-2-page-85.htm
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 18, 2022 at 11:52 AM
"If you believe in a higher power, you may live longer, suggests a new study."
"In the first study, Wallace and colleagues analyzed 505 obituaries published in the Des Moines Register between January and February 2012.
" The second study analyzed 1,096 obituaries published online in 42 major cities across the U.S. between August 2010 and August 2011.
" In both studies, the researchers accounted for sex and marital status, as well as the number of religious social activities the people had participated in.
" The first study showed that religious believers lived 9.45 years longer than those who did not have a religious affiliation in their obituary.
" After their sex and marital status had been accounted for, believers lived 6.48 years longer, on average, than non-believers.
" In the second study, that gap was 5.64 years at first, then 3.82 years after considering sex and marital status.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322175#Why-religion-may-promote-health
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 18, 2022 at 11:58 AM
It would be SO NICE and frankly 'updated' if
▪︎ to read a specific blog post you have to select the title and only pull up that blogpost TO TRACK (and show publicly if the author selects that option) HOW MANY READ a given blogpost.
▪︎the readers could show we liked it somehow (without having to leave a comment to do so).
The author could choose the means either by something like simply a check, or if he prefers a star system feedback (something like 2 or 1 stars).
▪︎and if the author wants to see this feedback to indicate opinion such as
-agree,
-agree in part,
-disagree in part,
-disagree. And this could be a feature either shown to public or just to the author.
I would like to see this without having to read the comments and am very interested in the readership numbers.
Also, how many are stealth RS members who doubt their path. (Ok that was a joke BUT
*Since tracking is apparently becoming psychic*
TRY THIS: THINK OF SOMETHING FOR A WEEK that you haven't talked about or searched for ever before, AND SEE IF IT COMES UP IN YOUR phone's ADS!
A youtube couple tried it. They both picked the topic together. It showed up the VERY NEXT DAY. They almost passed out (I exaggerate.)
(I'd love for you Brian to do a post and and invite a reader experiment on this. 🧡👍)
Posted by: El | June 18, 2022 at 01:42 PM
@ Ron E. [ "It would be nice ... to move away from the ego-self's predominance of believing us to be a special creation – with all its supernatural baggage." ]
Agree. But the ego-self isn't the only problematic snare of the mind. The
24x7 thought stream fractures our attention, strengthens confusion and
lack of focus, makes us more malleable, weaker of will, prey to attacks
of senseless passion, poor discernment, and bad judgment
The remedy is only one according to mystics. We must master the
mind, follow it to its lair inside and by observing its motions blunt
its power over us. Reap the benefits of improved cognition and
physical health along the way too. You'll slowly, surely begin to
shed any supernatural baggage as light fills the house... and
sets you free.
Posted by: Dungeness | June 19, 2022 at 01:02 AM
Dungeness.
Its a current misconception that one has to 'master the mind'; better to make friends with it and understand it. The mind with its thoughts and emotions is an ally – so long as it is seen for what it is. Thoughts are always present, just don't get caught up in them. Zen acknowledges this with a nice saying; - “You're like a house, leave the front and back door open, allow your thoughts to come and go. Just don't serve them tea!”
And I recall Sam Harris in his book 'Waking Up', describe a situation where a woman gained celebrity status under Poona-ji. by becoming 'enlightened'. When she and the group Harris was with went on to visit Tulku Urgyen, she declared her boundless freedom from thoughts. Tulku asked her how long it had been since she was lost in thought. “Over a week” she said, “My mind is completely still, just pure consciousness.” So Tulku asked her to sit still and say when a thought arose. “Okay, wait a minute, oh, that could have been a thought there, okay.” It became clear that she had merely been thinking about being free of thought – without noticing that she had been thinking incessantly.
Thought and emotions along with the ego-self are an ever-active part of our human nature. Meditation can enable the seeing of these mental attributes, enabling the possibility of understanding what they are in the context of the me, I, self phenomenon – the who I am question.
Posted by: Ron E. | June 19, 2022 at 03:24 AM
Its a current misconception that one has to 'master the mind'; better to make friends with it and und
I don t think so RON
Neither of the two
As every puber can already understand is : Fall in love, a big CRUSH
They cannot sleep cannot eat - are so fixed on that person they love
I remember when I wa 7, biked to her house , stayed hours , only seeing her window
Erna DeRuyter, Laren, Netherlands
It s the only way to still the mind after it went crazy
But were is it coming from, that feel, that self hypnose, hormones triggered by karma
I think hypnose is divine and all mundane exploitations are not so
but work with little bits
So how to obtain Love for a Saint - Just ASK ! -
and inform yourself about
what he proposes
777
Posted by: 777 (85) | June 19, 2022 at 04:25 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvZXS5jrahA&list=RDGvZXS5jrahA&start_radio=1
Posted by: 77 (85) | June 19, 2022 at 06:03 AM
@ Ron E [ Its a current misconception that one has to 'master the mind'; better to make friends with it and understand it. ]
Yes I agree. That's why I said: "follow it to its lair inside and,
by observing its motions, blunt its power over us. That's the
essence of mindfulness. Then, when mastered and only
then, can it become an ally and friend.
I agree with 777 though. Only the intensity of love for a
saint will make it a success.
Posted by: Dungeness | June 19, 2022 at 07:04 AM