War crimes in Bucha show depravity of Russia

Religious believers have a lot of trouble explaining evil. How could a loving God allow people to suffer so much at the hands of their fellow humans? 

The usual unpersuasive religious bullshit is trotted out. God works in mysterious ways. God allows humans to have free will, even if they freely will cruelty. Karmic connections from past lives cause some people to harm others in a settling of karmic accounts.

I don't accept any of that. People do terrible things because some people are terrible.

Sure, there may be psychological reasons for their horrible behavior. But this doesn't excuse horrors such as what Russian soldiers did to Ukrainians in Bucha, a town held by the Russian military until it was liberated by Ukrainian forces a few days ago.

President Zelensky of Ukraine is calling what the Russians did genocide. President Biden of the United States is calling it war crimes. Whatever word is used, every decent person should be repelled by what happened in Bucha.

If anyone wants to defend Vladimir Putin and his Russian military after reading this Politico story, 'They killed everyone." Fury in Ukraine at Russian troops' barbarity, I have a two word response: Fuck you. I have zero respect for anyone who tries to explain away what happened in Bucha. 

Here's how the story starts out.

KYIV — U.S. army veteran Ryan O’Leary looks a little unsteady and draws heavily as he smokes — unsurprising after what he’s seen and done over the past month during some vicious firefights on the northern outskirts of Kyiv, for weeks among the most intense front lines in Ukraine.

Added to that, he was clearly aghast at what he had seen in the last 48 hours, assisting with clean-up operations in the town of Bucha, northwest of Kyiv, in the wake of a Russian withdrawal that was part rout.

The 35-year-old Iowan, who did tours in Afghanistan and Iraq, is one of hundreds of foreign volunteers who enlisted with Ukraine’s foreign legion immediately after Russia invaded. He says he did so to “support democracy.” He reached Kyiv on March 1, and within hours was sent with about a dozen American and British military veterans to Moshchun, a village near Bucha, part of an uneven line of settlements blocking the Russians from entering Ukraine’s capital from the north.

O’Leary was in combat for a month without much pause; and then on Saturday, he was ordered to Bucha, the same day Ukraine declared the once-quiet suburban town liberated from Russian troops.

Bucha is now the focus of an international outcry. Ukrainian officials and rights groups accuse Russian forces of massacring civilians in Bucha, as well as other villages on the outskirts of Kyiv. The barbarity being uncovered in Bucha after Russian forces pulled out a few days ago is fueling demands for international war crimes investigations — and adding to Ukrainian fury.

“I’ve had seven years in combat zones fighting ISIS, fighting the Taliban, and what the Russians did to civilians is insane,” says O’Leary. The veteran adds: “They killed everyone — not just men, like the media is reporting right now. They killed women, too. It is something I am never going to forget. When you go into some of the villages, you see civilians dead with their hands tied behind their backs.

“The photos and videos you’re seeing right now only tell half the story,” he says. “We went into one house, cleared the house of mines, and in the back yard there was a van and inside there were five dead women. They had been shot; then someone had tried to burn them.” There have been other reports of scorched and semi-burnt female bodies, prompting suspicions that whoever set them alight was trying to destroy evidence of rape.

Naturally Russia is lying about the war crimes their troops committed in Bucha. Echoing what right-wing conspiracy theorists said about the killing of dozens of school children in the Sandy Hook tragedy, Putin's liars are claiming that the bodies in photos of Bucha were "crisis actors" pretending to be dead.

But the New York Times has debunked that obvious fabrication, proving that satellite images show that 11 of the bodies were in the same location when found by Ukrainian soldiers since March 11, when Bucha was controlled by Russia.

Further, Russia has a track record of war crimes. Wanton killing of civilians occurred in Chechnya and Syria at the hands of the Russian military. 

Now it is happening in Ukraine. Sadly, almost certainly more reports of war crimes against women, children, and men who had no connection to the Ukrainian forces will come out after additional cities are liberated from Putin's invading force.

I doubt anyone who reads this and thinks that Russian soldiers were justified in murdering innocent civilians would be willing to say so in a comment, using their real name. However, if you're OK with war crimes, I think you should be OK with letting the world know who you are.

Someone with no sense of morality.

Some of the dead in Bucha

Comments

[Spence Tepper]

Where there is war, you get war crimes.
There is no war I'm aware of without them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

And not only that, you get friendly fire.
Where weapons are in mass use you get abuse.

War crimes are part and parcel of war.
So what is the solution?
End the war.
How to do that?
Diplomacy.
More killing won't end the killing.
How much killing of innocents will it take for us to learn this simple lesson once more? That might does not make right.

That more guns, more missiles and bullets and knives and arrows flying in the air will only increase the bloodshed.

In war everyone loses.

Shouting at the darkness never lit a single candle.

But it does rightly draw attention to the need for a candle.

Shouting loudly about these war crimes is absolutely what we need if it causes us to stop and think for a moment about what we missed about diplomacy.

But if it pushes us further into this no - win war where nuclear conflict and Armageddon is the only realistic military end game, then we need to tone down the rhetoric.

Because beating the war drums ever more loudly today makes us squarely responsible for tomorrow's war crimes.

The fact that war crimes are inevitable and more are on the way each day this war continues should humble us enough to consider what was not done diplomatically that could have been done. And what we can and should do today.

This will not be a war of attrition. It to not end through more violence.

It can only end in peace, and that means an agreement, and diplomacy.

What did we NOT offer yet that might have at least been the basis of a cease fire?

We did not offer full and permanent bi-lateral withdrawal from Ukraine and bi-lateral de-escalation of nuclear weapons with Russia and all NATO members in exchange for honoring Ukraines' sovereignty. Putin has complained about the escalation for years. We used that complaint to take this option off the table. That was a terrible mistake with terrible human consequence.

Shouldn't it have been our first offer?
What is keeping us from it? That is adding gasoline to the flames of this war.

We need that candle of insight before stepping one more foot into this dark cave called war.

I'm afraid we will need to channel all that emotion of hatred into thinking.

Our enemy must become our friend. And therefore we must become a better friend.

[um]

>> Religious believers have a lot of trouble explaining evil. How could a loving God allow people to suffer so much at the hands of their fellow humans? <<

Whatever humans have to communicate, they have to do it with their own language, their own concepts. Religious concepts are not and cannot be an exemption to the rule.
So whatever a religion teaches is by necessity ... man made.

So the god of any religion is something made "in the image of man" and i this case the image of the IDEAL image of man, a man without evil. Given that everything has its counterpart, and evil is part of existence, the solution for evil must be found elsewhere ... in man or in another "creature".. the devil.

IEDEALISM , the seeking of something positive without its negative countrepart, is the real curse that humanity has inflicted upon himself.

All tyrants in whatever form were also IDEALISTS, they wanted to be creators with all its miserable consequebces as history tells us.

Mostly if not always people in pointing out the evil in the world act the way as was said by Christ in parabel of the beam in the eye.

But were were we with our outcries when the countries of the middle east had to face the same ordeal.?

In our country, that is more or less forced to accept all refugees coming from Ukraine, probably at least 50.000, give them shelter, food, education etc without having then to ask asylum we have to look in the mirror and have to accept how we have dealt in the past with The syrians, the Afgans etc.... All of an sudden everuthing is possible, people offer their homes etc etc etc, there is no end to charity ...that is allright ... but the question remains whether the syrians etc are not also humans?

Selective abomination ... is also human

[arun marwah]

Brian, What else will this or any war bring?? wars before this were equally gruesome, whether it was in US invasion of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Vietnam, Korea, Hiroshima, Nagasaki etc etc. India Pak war of 1971, Pak army atrocities on Hindu minorities in what is now called Bangladesh. war means death of human beings, animals, birds and destruction of infrastructure.

[arun marwah]

Pluto in Grey Lizard at 8 to 13 degrees(2025-28)
Pluto in Capricorn.
Pluto's presence in the Grey Lizard patch during 2025 to 2028 will be worst period for the world, during Pluto's stay in capricorn. If you thought 2020-21 was bad, think again. During its nascent entry in Capricorn, pluto brought back one aspect of the Capricornian philosphy- family comes first. In 2019-2021, Pluto made us come back to families, shrunk our office hours, and generally made us spend more time at home.
When Pluto enters the Grey Lizard patch, it will probably show the ugly shades of Capricorn. Capricorns at their worst can be cunning, scheming, plotting against the enemies- to reach the top positions. Now, when this has to happen at higher levels, involving several countries, then it could mean some negative events involving the battle for supermacy, one upmanship, and Territorial conquests.
Don't be surprised if there are some border tensions that even escalate to some WARS. Some developed and powerful nationswill have skirmishes or Civil Wars. Venus and Mars will be in conjunction many times between 2026 and 2028, these three years may be very vulnerable for world peace. Venus rules peace and Mars rules conflict and when both come into conjunction, peace is shattered. And if Pluto, the planet of war, is in a grey lizard avatar during this patch, it means greater conflicts, huge tensions and eventually, WARS.

Greenstone Lobo in his book published in June 2021.

91 Predictions.

[Dungeness]

@ Arun : [ And if Pluto, the planet of war, is in a grey lizard avatar during this patch, it means greater conflicts, huge tensions and eventually, WARS ]

What bothers me about astrological predictions is they draw, or
seem to, the attention outside oneself. To people, events, and
situations over which we have no power instead of redirecting
our attention inward... to improve our own flaws. Unless I guess
it is a personal chart... is that the correct term? Even if so, IMO,
focusing instead on a path of simple mindfulness... channeling
attention on our own thoughts and habits would generate more
immediacy and empowerment in our lives.

[umami]

arun,

Okay, that will help us to judge Mr Lobo. 2025-2028 will be characterized by warfare. Border tensions escalating to war. Developed and powerful nations in skirmishes and civil wars. We can wait and see.

What's "grey lizard avatar," something to do with Scorpio?

[Appreciative Reader]

I cannot presume to speak for other people, and if people choose to collude with ignorance and charlatanry then that is their prerogative. While astrology in all of its forms is ignorant irrational unscientific superstitious claptrap, and I've gone some way in clearly showing that with clearly reasoned and evidenced arguments in the other thread, but as they say, people who do not base their beliefs on reason in the first place, simply cannot be reasoned out of their superstitious beliefs.

There's four ...levels, I could call it, to this depravity.

At the first level is the perversity of belief in irrational things, like this astrology superstition.

What takes it to a different level is some unscrupulous dishonest character profiting financially by misleading other people with these superstitions, and in fact making a living off of it.

Then, at the next higher (or lower, I suppose) level of depravity is where someone does the above not in some relatively richer land peopled by and large with reasonably affluent people (relatively speaking I mean, when the base is grinding starving living-in-a-literal-hovel medicine-less poverty), but in a poor country like India, so that their victims include poor people, who ignorance and superstitions make them take their money, that they might have used to buy food and clothes and medication, into paying dishonest charlatans like this unscrupulous snake-oil salesman.

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But the level at which this descends into sheer evil? That is where someone shamelessly conducts their get-rich-by-swindling-the-ignorant-superstitious-rubes schemes off of such heartrending heartbreaking catastrophes like the Covid pandemic and this Ukraine war, by claiming that this worthless book about this worthless pseudo-science has something to do with either.

-------

Forget all of these words. Just look at that damn picture that Brian's posted. That picture which shows the full depths of ...depravity I suppose is the right word, to which humanity can sink. I mean, just LOOK at that fucking picture. Doesn't it make you want to actually throw up?

Can anyone, anyone at all, after seeing that picture, then DARE to try to make even THAT a selling point for their shameless charlatanry?

Well, clearly they can.

Carry on, then, have fun.

[arun marwah]

Reproducing excerpts from his book without his permission again.
At the same time, we should remember Capricorn's urge to grow and take control. The next two decades are also going to be about one upmanship. In some part of the world, there will be a country which will try to expand his territory. Watch all top countries of the world.. The fight to be at the Top will make them behave irrationally. Skirmishes at the border, territorial wars and mini wars cannot be ruled out.

a group of people in some countries who will want power and position. And, if that can come only from a split in teritorries, then that may happen too. Therefore, some countries where there is already some infighting, which started in the sagittarius patch, will undergo huge transformations.. Expect some new countries to be carved out of the existing ones, and bigger ones breaking into smaller fragments.
Another world war? I really don't think so. The top three planets- Uranus, Neptune and Pluto- have to enter into seriously problematic positions, and the transit has to be in a debilitated zodiac sign, for that kind of a calamity to happen. Mercifully, it isn't so at the moment. We can breathe easy on that count.

[Appreciative Reader]

Just stop, damn you.

Had this been *my* blog, I'd banned your shameless ass out of this place for good, for daring to try to derail even this thread, even this description of these foul horrors being perpetrated, with your shameless promotion of this worthless book. As it is I'm only a visitor here, and can do no more than try to reason against this pseudo-science, and try to shame people from not misusing this platform with such shameless charlatanry.

The obvious shortcomings of such a course of action is that it will have no effect on someone who is irrational and impervious to reason, and on someone that is lacking in any sense of decency and shame.

I've done all I could. I've presented reasoned, evidenced arguments to make my case. I've shown how reprehensible it is to try to profit off of other people's misfortunes by using the pandemic and this war as sales hooks. I don't see that I can do anything more than simply step back now, and leave people to do as their reason, and their conscience, directs.

[arun marwah]

Appreciative Reader, you show your upbringing and class by commenting the way you have. Had this been your blog, i would not have come here to comment.

[Appreciative Reader]

It does show my upbringing, yes. I've been brought up to value reason. I've been brought up to question superstition, and reject blind faith. And I've been brought up to view with abhorrence people who gull others for their personal profit.

What about you? What is your idea of a sound upbringing, then? Following irrational pseudo-science? Gulling people by selling snake-oil diagnoses and prescriptions in order to make money? Growing up to be so entirely callous to human suffering that even that stark punch-in-the-gut pic of this horror has only this reaction on you, that you unpack your fraudulent wares and try to sell them here, in the process derailing this discussion on the horrors of war?

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Incidentally, ever since you've started derailing threads here with your promotion of your friend's book, I've posted a number of comments about your claims and about astrology, some of which were entirely factual in nature, clearly evidenced and reasoned. I see that you don't even try to put forward a reasoned defense against any of that. The only time you make a direct response to any of my comments directed at you, is to aim this content-free personal insult at me. Classy, eh?

-------

Clearly neither my appeals to reason nor to decency have moved you to reconsider your blatant promotion of this claptrap here. Your doubling down on your snake-oil peddling is clear evidence of that. And this is the second thread on this Ukraine situation that's now getting derailed with your astrology bullshit.

I'm not going to waste any more of my time and energy with this nonsense, and nor will I collude in derailing any more threads here. So I'm out of here, don't worry.

Nothing against you personally, by the way. Peace.

[um]

@ AR

You have approached the issue of astrology[ as related to the ongoing situation in Eastern Europe] in the light of your rational, western thoughts, what i means to you, how it fits in your world view.

You ask Arun to look at the issue from your point of view, which he refuses for his own reasons or is not able to.

Without leaving your point of view, the either-or position, you can also opt for the and-and position, and trying to understand what astrology means for the worl in general, and the india in particular.

It is not true, that the use of astrology is restricted only to the poor and vulnerable people in India. That would be equal as to say that the politics, the choices to be made in the USA is solely a matter of the poor and homeless people in America.

Astrology is one of the tools, a means to an end, in the process of decision making and creating an perspective of what is going on in the world. Vedic Astrology, is like religion an part of PUBLIC culture in India.

That said, the rich and educated handle the issue and have the means to handle it differently than their counterparts. Yes there are astrologers that are considered in india as charlatans and others that are seen as great scholars.

That might be teeth grinding for you but that is how it is.

Writing the last sentence I was reminded that when the Indian scholars launched their first space probe they did an Hindu ceremony.

And ... given that huge cultural difference between the east and the west, it makes little sens for Arun to post it here as most people here will not and cannot hear upon him, as they do not attribute the meaning to the issue at hand as he, as an Indian, does.

You are not asked to agree or understand it, to incorporated it in your worldview . Not being asked to do it he are free to be curious and have your self informed in things other people do in other cultures, that is as valuable to them as rationality and science is for you.

Your thinking and science is also not helping the poor, neither in your country let alone in India.

[arun marwah]

AR, You should go and see a psychiatrist immediately. This is the only conclusion that i can draw from your use of abusive language.

[Appreciative Reader]

arun marwah, this is getting surreal.

Clearly you see words, and dimly sense through the fog that "Some mean guy is being mean to me." You see words criticizing your conduct, and all you see is "abuse". The actual meaning of those words clean escape you. And the only rejoinder that occurs to you is neither rational examination of this criticism and of your irrational beliefs, nor ethical examination of your cynical use of others' misfortune (this war, in this case; and earlier, the pandemic) in order to try to sell your friend's mumbo jumbo, but repeated schoolboy taunts of "Yah, you're crazy."

So who do you think it is that actually needs to get their head examined?

Except: I don't think you're crazy. I don't think a psychiatrist can help you. Your parents might have been able to help you, maybe, by inculcating in you reason and rationality, and decency as well. It may be too late to do anything with you now, except simply to keep you from gulling and harming others.

[Appreciative Reader]

um, I've taken my response to you to the Open Thread. Here's the link to my comment: https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2022/03/open-thread-42-free-speech-for-comments.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2027880755c3e200d#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2027880755c3e200d

[Uchit]

War is evil, but just who was the real aggressor? Who were putting missile basis on mosco door step; who has been expanding NATO ever since the cold war was over, USA; who has financial vested interests in Ukraine, hunter nazi Biden, Nancy Pelosi, bill and melinda foundation..etc. who has over 30 bio labs invested by shell companies in the Ukraine; where is the biggest child trafficking, ukraine; where is the nazi funded by the USA go, ukraine. All this is undisputed and factual. But does not get reported by the mass media. Isn't this rather like the fake ass guru of beas, GSD, where the media like to manufacture a likable perfect saint yet a simple Google search will reveal that he is a narcissist, and a fraudulent baba with only his own interest.

[umami]

If nuclear proliferation were really the issue, Russia could find sympathy through large swaths of the population in NATO countries. Once upon a time we had a very visible antinuclear movement. By salting it with baloney about Nazis, bioweapons, Hunter Biden and George Soros, they reveal that it's only one talking point in a blitz of misinformation and mindless cruelty.

https://news.yahoo.com/genocide-masterplan-experts-alarmed-after-kremlin-intellectual-calls-for-cleansed-ukraine-182354392.html