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March 21, 2022

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And every form of expression, every art is its own meditation.

@ Spence

Things are born, grow to its full form and die.
There is no exception.

Groth has an beginning and an end

Growing is not changing.

What exists is an ongoing [unique] variation of the same.

The river just flows, it never changes into a crow, irrespective the conditions that make the river flow, and change its surface.

The pine too

There is an endless and ongoing change of preparing food,and the devision into many a cuisine, but however it changes it always remains ...FOOD .....and food has to be digestible...... as the body needs food not a cuisine.

In western culture we do not want to realize and accept that nature has regulated "growth" in order to stay alive.

The succesor of RSSB when he started out, he said that he would stop the groth of the sangat and to make it visible he compared the sangat with a plant and growth with an abundance of light water and nutrients in the soil and as a concequence that the plant was not able to create enough wood to keep itself upright.

What he didn't say is that if a pine grows to much wood as a consequence of its natural growth the wood becomes excessive and will cause the pine to die

And as said before ..it might take many hundreds of years before the pine loses its grip on the earth and the capacity to pump water and nutrients to its top the pine never changes..... as its creator, if there is one , ... saw ... that it was good

History books tell the miserable tale of the human misery, the ... desire for changing what is for the better, growth.

Cultural groth and expansion and the non exception of death, is the outcome of christiian thinking, the misunderstanding of the words of an mystic of the past.

The idea of growth is a curse and the very expression of the 5 foes or the buddhist "DESIRE"

@ Spence

And ... if the god in Spence is not Spence and, in each and every one, he spoke only to Spence.

If that would be the case, that God that is in everyone so also in Um, failed to speak to Um and told him to heed the words of Spence.

So what we have is the HEARSAY of spence.
Spence operating as the mouthpiece of GOD.

THAT ... is what the clergy has done for ages ....talking, commanding etc ... in THE NAME OF GOD

A God that was only available to just one person, one cast

Hi Um
The God in you is the God in me.
It's part of the human construction and available to anyone who asks, willing to practice sincerely.

That is a growing relationship, a pathway through yourself.

Um, the wealth in me is the same wealth in you.

Whether you see a bank account total or your loving Father tells you he is placing the funds in trust for you, it is the same wealrh. No one has more of it than anyone else. If you have a human body and are alive, you have the entire creation in you. You have all the wealth there is.

If you want to see some of it, practice.

It is that simple.

You heard it as someone else's testimony, like attending a Chemistry Class. Now attend the lab and do the lab work your professors told you about. You claim to love them. Now live what they taught and follow their instructions. You aren't alone. They are right there with you, helping guide you.

You have the same beakers, test tubes, Bunson burner and reagents as every other student in the class. Some have a little more experience and their chemical reaction comes a little faster. Others need help controlling the right amount of each chemical, the heat to be applied, the timing of the admixture.

Some students will need to scrap their current mixture and try again.

But no one gets through today's class without getting results. Because the Professor is here.

Interestingly, the professor doesn't spend much time with the students who got it right away. He is attending to those who are needing a little help.

But everyone has the same supplies and equipment, and the results are assured by the laws of chemistry, and the student's success assured by the attention of the professor.

@ Spence

Whether there is a god or not I do not know.

Nor do i know what the concept is all about.

What I do know is that some individual humans, based upon their supposed inner experience, have introduced such an concept and go on to say that such an power is in everyone.

If that would be the case everyone would have knowledge of such an power.

Now the majority do not have that knowledge the priests tell them what to do.

It has become their snake oil establishment.

@ Spence

If others would not have spoken to me about God, Inner experiences, etc etc etc. I would never have known about it.

I lent them my ears and in doing so I was brainwashed into their stories.

Based upon my personal experience of life these concepts have no meaning.

There are those that speak about hidden treasures, in many forms, material and immaterial. One can argue about the existence of these treasures and about the reasons why they are hidden to most and known to some but one can question whether these treasures are needed to live.

Becoming "rich" like others, has never been a thing for me.

@ Spence

How came the indigenous peoples of the Americas to be Christian?
How did these people came to speak English, French and Spanish?

Without the missionaries they would have never had any knowledge of it

and ...

They would never have lost their freedom, properties and dignity and become the "slaves" untill today of that white, christian, english speaking upper class.

That is how people became mentaly and spiritual enslaved by the promise of wealth ....

For the hindus, if you are interested you are welcome but they do not go out of their way to spread their word.

The evil of wealth is related to the spreading of an message without being invited.... the suggestion that you have access to something that makes life better than it is and that you can deliver the road towards it.

Nothing wrong with people having wealth and enjoying that wealth.

Hi Um

You wrote
"For the hindus, if you are interested you are welcome but they do not go out of their way to spread their word."

Had they not taught their children you would not know.

You see Um, you were indoctrinated. Just as children are in all cultures.

Now you have decided that the other religions of the world are entirely at fault, whereas I see the same great strength at the base of each.

But, as you say, if you are interested, it does depend upon your upbringing. Mine was set before my birth. I was born a Jew, but when I was five years old my parents left Judaism, in protest for what happened to our Rabbi. He rejected Israel as the homeland of the Jews. He rejected zionism, and taught that the true Israel is inside of each of us, a place in Spirit, not dirt in some geography. So he lost his job, and my parents left Judaism. This was in the early sixties. Combined with my own inner experiences we were in a bit of turmoil, though everything turned out fine.

Rabbi Finegold wasn't rejecting Judaism. He was rejecting the political nature of the organization, and taught that the base of Judaism was in fact mysticism.

So that is what I see when I consider the beliefs of others. And that is the greater truth.

It doesn't matter that a treasure has been buried. What matters is that the same treasure is in each of us. We are all brothers and sisters in the same family precisely because we have the same Father.

"We have no right to claim God is our Father until we can claim all men are our brothers."
Sawan Singh

So you see the RSSB organization, as you understand it, is entirely different from the spiritual powerhouse of RSSB as I understand it. I do realize that these two alternate realities do in fact share the same physical space.

But one is infinitely more valuable to each individual than the other.

@ Spence

What I write has nothing to do with what you write in your answer. and You know it.

What RSSB etc means to you is not what I am interested in, nor should it be of any interest to you or anybody else what RSSB means to me.

But it is what people do in this case you, with what they hold in presenting it to others.
It is about communication.

It is about what you do here, in this blog, with what is yours.

The last word in this matter is yours.

@ Spence

> It doesn't matter that a treasure has been buried. What matters is that the same treasure is in each of us. <<

Without YOU and others spreading that message around nobody would know

Whether there is a treasure in YOU or in all is not at stake, but spreading that message is equal to saying to people .. I have something you do not have.

What makes it even worse is telling them how wonderful that is and that there are ways to find that treasure inside themselves..

It is like telling people they can become president of the USA or win they lottery.
Yes they can but the chances they do are niglectable.

And you, who had inner experiences as a GIFT like there is als Mr. Tolle en others, know that.

To tell others that they can have it also is what I call the evil of wealth. it is an affrond to all that meditated dor 2, 3 4 and 5 decades .. like your friend Brian Ji ...hahahaha

Hi Um
You wrote
"Whether there is a treasure in YOU or in all is not at stake, but spreading that message is equal to saying to people .. I have something you do not have."

Quite the contrary. It is pointing to the treasure in your own home that you forgot about all becuse you choose to look at others but not within.

You wrote

" What makes it even worse is telling them how wonderful that is and that there are ways to find that treasure inside themselves.."

Is it wrong to speak the truth? Or to get angry at another doing so?

You wrote

"It is like telling people they can become president of the USA or win they lottery.
Yes they can but the chances they do are niglectable."

According to whom? According to the Saints everyone has that job and that money already in a trust account.

It is a scientist stating what they observed, and noting that these results area similar to those written of throughout recorded history.

It's universally available.

Those who have even they slightest intuition of it, driving them forward, will understand immediately, intuitively.

Those who have no connection with it will not.

Because it is not in our hands, Um. That is a matter of our conditioning. But if a growing connection is what you want to whatever is inside you, then of course any path of true personal growth will yield similar results.

As for the results, at what Brian Ji has written. He shares that wealth all the time, in a language you can understand and appreciate.

Sadly all I can do is speak of my own situation, and the universal availability of it.

But as to the benefits, whether conscious or unconscious, Brian Ji is a wonderful example of the benefits filtering through. He really is Baba Ji and Maharaji's bulldozer, pulling everyone's through their illusions. And of course he, you and I are also being pulled.


Hi Um
You wrote
"Whether there is a treasure in YOU or in all is not at stake, but spreading that message is equal to saying to people .. I have something you do not have."

No, I think I've repeated, oh, a few dozen times, that it's the same treasure in you.

If a person wants to learn to run and sees an article about aerobic conditioning, the principles are universal. Follow those and get similar results. That's universal. Because the physical make up is the same in most everyone.

You want that conditioning? You do the practice. And of course you make adjustments along the way for your particular individual condition.

Now, Um, different parole for different reasons give up their practice.
But so much hard research on meditation demonstrates the very real benefits of continuing.

As to inner experiences, all long term mediators have them, and you can swap notes to get insight into your own. Or seek out advice as you need it.

You want to claim the world is filled with poverty but then are "affronted" (to use your term). by a pathway to a wealth in you? A wealth that is part of who and what you are, your very birthright? You think a solution is an affront to those living with a problem?

Is sobriety an insult to the alcoholic?

That may be so but I'm missing the logic. Seems to me you should be 'affronted' by what stands in the way of your practice.

@ Spence

I do know the content of that message of yours.

What is neither kind nor helpfull is the suggestion to others that they have that treasure, knowing that you started out, like many others with a gift of an experience.

To suggest later on that others that never had such an gift, that they can have that treasure as well is as i said neither helpful nor kind.

Huzur, in his days was against any form of spreading the word about that treasure and stressed that it should come out of a person WITHOUT any intervention of others.

You behave like a missionary that spreads Christianity .. that too was neither kind nor helpfull

It is the evil of wealth.

In those days I was happily involved in Sant Mat, I never said nor suggested to those near and dear to me that they should do what I had done

You see you are like those people that wanted to write articles in the news papers so that all could hear the "good [savior] news". Huzur again and again told them to refrain from it but they were not willing and just did whathey wantedd

Oops should read, "Different people for different reasons give up their practice. A promising student is distracted by love or enticing business prospects and quits their hard-won scholarship at University. They complain for decades about the uselessness of a University education all the while noticing the better living conditions of others who started years later, graduated and are enjoying their careers.

But this particular University held your scholarship for you! You complained and bitterly about the instructors, made excuses, and lost faith, in Truth, in yourself.

But the University counselor never lost faith in you.

So, the scholarship has already been paid for. Your Professors are still teaching there. Nothing has changed. Complain all you like. Or take the next cab back. Even your old dorm room is still there and held in respect for you.

Be affronted all you like. I'm not affronted, Um in the least.

Every child deserves to be loved, even a child hardened by circumstance. They are children, afterall.

@ Spence

>> Oops should read, "Different people for different reasons give up their practice. A promising student is distracted by love or enticing business prospects and quits their hard-won scholarship at University. They complain for decades about the uselessness of a University education all the while noticing the better living conditions of others who started years later, graduated and are enjoying their careers.<<

You are describing your own history, ... and ... your parent's ... hahgaha

And Um, as to proselytizing, that is not what I'm doing anymore than you area proselytizing for the religion of Nihilism.

I represent no organization.
I speak to what I've learned is universal.
You do not share that view. That's fine.

You may condemn me for speaking my view, although it's just your misunderstanding.

You don't remember, that's all. So how can I respond to someone who forgot what they already have? Only with compassion and encouragement to get up and keep walking.

@ Spence

If you had any compassion you would be silent about your achievements and under no circumstance suggest that others could have the same as you ... knowing ... that that is not true.... ask your friend Brian Ji ... hahahaha

Every day the human mind forgets. Every day memories are lost. At night we dream but remember little of it. And what we do remember was lost and must be reconstructed from the fragments that remain.

Our lives are spent living in those fragments. That, and the imaginary reconstructions that we create to form "memory" is what we live in. We remember it in a way that flatters our current sentiments. It's just his story, or her story. But in all events it's a story. Yes, based loosely on real events. Very loosely.

Reality is quite different. But what access do we have to it?

So long as our consciousness is constrained to the functioning mind, and cannot perceive in any other way, we are in a hopeless state. We react emotionally to little things because in that moment they are everything real to us.

Sad, pitiable.

We can do better. No wonder people are in constant conflict. Misunderstandings abound in such a flawed system.

We can do better.

@ Spence

That is a lie, .... the one use by snake oil sellers, that people will get better if they only take their [mental] potion.

Even worse is is when the make them self seen as " healers"

Hi Um
To the blind person any discussion of color is a lie.

To the Alcoholic any discussion of Sobriety is an affront.

As Alan Watts said the addictions are too strong to give up.

But the addictiction is the real insult and every alcoholic should be affronted by it.

The addiction is the lie, Um.

@ Spence

I am only blind and an alcoholic in YOUR peresonalized worldview .. and seeing that way gives you a good feeling about yourself.

Evil of wealth, Spence can have tricky faces, they come as your "well wisher"

Hahahaha ..

Hi Um
You wrote
"I am only blind and an alcoholic in YOUR peresonalized worldview .. and seeing that way gives you a good feeling about yourself."

No I think you have it backwards. I'm not pleased with the distance at all. The idea of people living in poverty is an affront to me. Human beings were meant for more. This insistence that you are living in poverty and must remain there makes no sense. I see no point to it, especially if you must deny what was promised to you by your own Master. That's weird.

But addiction is also a powerful force. The force of the vacuum.

But as to living in poverty, as long as you chose to be here, then I'm here too, at least during the day shift.

If I could swing open the gates to the city I would. All I can do is point out that the gates are already open. And the city already belongs to those who want to go in.

@ Spence

>> If I could swing open the gates to the city I would. All I can do is point out that the gates are already open. And the city already belongs to those who want to go in.<<

That exists only in your own fairy tale as a solution offered by a snake oil seller.

There is a difference between:
You can do better
and
you are good as you are

It is a matter of right understanding and compassion.

You cannot live without people that need your help and if they do not ask for your help you try to make them feel that they do need help .. your help.

You function on their need. ... hahaha

This week 85

What did I learn:

This Title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz7tCZE_3wA

777

Hey, um.

Interesting, what you said about Ramana.

I do know a bit about Ramana. I've read about him, a bit; and someone I personally know is actually a disciple of his---that is, not directly, but she 'follows' him, sees him as her spiritual guide, and allegedly has had breakthroughs while on that path. Which latter is neither here nor there, what I was saying is, although I know a bit about Ramana, clearly I don't know half as much as I thought I do. Because while his path of self-enquiry is well enough known, I'd imagined that was the only path he "taught". The surrender-to-the-Guru business, that you speak of, I'd no clue Ramana was associated with that sort of thing as well.

Good to know. Thanks for pointing that out.

Spence, um,

I find you both debating that same issue that a while back I'd tried to get you to not just spar about but actually debate to some conclusion: I mean the question about whether the spiritual potential ---- assuming for now that that's even a thing, and ignoring for now the possibility that it's all of it a load of bull, because otherwise there's no sense even discussing any of this ---- is something that's inherent in everybody, and in more or less equal measure, at least as far as potential (as you claim, Spence), or whether (as you assert, um) it's inherent only to some, maybe a very few, and not a universal human condition.

I think this would be a great issue to explore, and perhaps come to some kind of resolution about. But I only mention this in passing, and don't actually invite you to try to constructively explore and resolve the issue, not again, given the utter fiasco the last attempt ended up as.


----------


Incidentally, Spence, that was interesting, your account of how and why your parents left the Judaic fold. I personally think that's cool: because while for obvious reasons I'm sympathetic to Jews (I mean to say their shameful persecution, not just by Hitler's goons, but by all of Europe, and much of Asia as well, for centuries, millennia actually), but I personally find the Zionist project a reprehensible thing. I appreciate the utterly desperate situation that Israel has been facing, and facing very bravely and very ably, right since its inception; and I also see Israel as both more civilized as well as far more benign than its barbaric neighbors; but, that said, I totally reject the basis on which that country was founded. I mean, a gaggle of "powers", to assuage their collective guilt at having persecuted a bunch of innocent folks, and stung to sympathy by the extreme Nazi atrocities, and most importantly to get rid of these folks and settle them off somewhere far away, they misuse their superior military strength to carve up the lands of people who totally don't want it to create Israel, ostensibly based on some absurd pseudo-historical fairy tales allegedly dating back millennia: how utterly insupportable is such a move.

So anyway, not to get into all of that: that's only by way of explaining why I respect your parents for having had the sense to reject the Zionist idea. Very cool.

Hi Um
You wrote
"That exists only in your own fairy tale as a solution offered by a snake oil seller.

" There is a difference between:
You can do better
and
you are good as you are

"It is a matter of right understanding and compassion."

Precisely, Um. We are saying the same thing from only slightly different perspectives. The gate is already open, as I wrote. The treasure is in you already. You are good to go. So go. Move forward. If you need help, help is also there. If you have a teacher you trust, follow his instructions. If not, find one. The human body is complex. That's why we have doctors. The human body isn't false because it requires your focused and disciplined care.

There is no need to denigrate anyone else simply for stating facts which you yourself have acknowledged.

Be affronted by the barriers in front of you, the ones you can do something about, and avoid distraction.

@ AR

You pointed at Ashtavakra and a search made me find this site on the Ahtavakra Gita related to Ramana Maharshi.

https://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/ashtavakra-gita/

It has an online audio translation of that Gita, which if I can manage to gather enough drive, will listen to.

AFTER these people had their experiences of what Yolande Duran calls "solence" they say it is a matter of surrender but ... they themselves .... never surrendered because that is impossible. The self / ego cannot surrender at will and no amount of effort will do it. To suggest it can be done is fooling people around with a twisted interpretation of what happened to them.

All started out with an unasked for experience that hit them like a flash of lightneng, Ramana Marshi is no exception to that rule.

So .. do not follow an mystic in his footsteps, do not read their books, show the priests that "sell" the insights of mystics the shortest way to hell, where they will probably will not allow entenace because their evil is to much for the inhabitants of hell to bear.

Do never give so miuch "food" to a person that he cannot swallow and digest.

Burn down the the esoteric bookshops and jail those that open their mouth

Hi Appreciative
Each of us are molded by our upbringing to see the world as we do. An open mind is the best tool to grow from there. Trees may be everywhere. Even indoors. Even in basements in pots. Generally, they all grow towards the sunlight, wherever it is coming from. It might be a little bit lateral, or might be straight up.

Evidence we are not seeing the whole picture happens when we do not understand. When someone says "you lie! You are false! You are a swindler!" Emotion.

1.The bee robs the flower it seeds.
2. The gods grant the wishes of those they would destroy.
3. The dark room is filled with hidden candles. Don't shout at the darkness. Light a candle.

@ Spence

What I had to say I did.

That's right enough, um, without a shadow of a doubt, as far as Ramana himself. Much like Yolande, he'd had his enlightenment experience spontaneously, and he arrived at the rest of it only after, long after. (He'd had his "episode" when he was still a child.)

Of course, the skeptic in me wonders whether this might actually have been a psychotic episode, and whether there are whole hordes that try to follow a psychotic individual into psychosis! (Not that I'm asserting that's so, only listing the possibility, and noting that it isn't as if this isn't plausible.)

Hi, Spence.

Those are wise words, or at least wise-ish, but not sure how that ties in with what I'd said. I genuinely find that subject of interest, whether or not the spiritual potential is a universal condition. (And I understand that different traditions might have different answers to that. Teasing that aspect out might be interesting.)

Maybe you'd misread one of um's posts and thought it was mine, and it is that you're responding to? Otherwise, I'm not sure how what you say relates.

@ AR

The potential is in everybody, in the same way as everybody that buys an lottery ticket can win the jack pot.

That said the chances that one wins the jackpot are statistically almost nil.

Heh, so you assert, um, without explaining why. And Spence asserts the opposite, again without backing up his empty assertion any more than you do yours.

Like I said, there's the possibility that all of this is bull in any case. Let's merely note that, but ignore it for now, in the interests of furthering the rest of the discussion.

This is where we were last time, when you did agree to start, both of you, and I hoped to look on, fly on wall. But inexplicably, Spence then insisted you were in agreement with his POV, which clearly you're not, so that that attempt ended a total fiasco.

Anyhoo... like I said, just thought I'd point out the potentially instructive debate, that's all. I'm not going to try to facilitate it, not this time. Should it take off though, and contrary to my expectations, well then I'll be here, reading it with interest.

@ AR

I am sorry that I have to disappoint you AR.

You are interested in scientific prove and rational explanations of experiences and I am more inclined to focus on the psychological and social consequences of these experiences.

So the "problem" i have with spence is not so much the fact that he has inner experiences but having them what he does with them in the public domain.

If an phenomena can occur in one human being, it can appear in all but it does not say that it will occur in all.

Things, facts, stories told are what they are
often not what they appear to be
let alone how they are presented to the world.

So wealth, material mental and spiritual, by itself is not a problem.
Nor the way the wealth was attained or its definition.
To me it matters what people do with it in the public domain.

The 5 foes,
... anger, lust, attachment, greed, and ego
[ what is a miserable translation of the concept of ahangkar] .....
are all speaking of a relationship between a person and the public domain.

Ahangkar .. has many faces, material, mental but also spiritual.

If you read the Anurag Sagar attributed to Kabir the founder of the way of the saints, you will notice that "the liar" can come in the guise of "the truth teller" and that it is almost impossible to see where and how the truth ends and the lies begin.

And .... In order not to provoke the "anger"of Manjit ... it is immaterial to me who wrote the story related in the Anurag and if there are indeed 12 false variations on each path of truth.

Finally I am not an Kabir, nor a mystic or an scientist. but somebody in the public domain that safeguards his mental freedom.

So :

"Can we kiss forever?"

YES

777


Ha ha ha, dear um, you misunderstand me: I am not in the least disappointed in you! There’s some misunderstanding somewhere, so let me explain, and at some length:


Look: You are asserting that our spiritual attainment (or otherwise) is intrinsic to us. and, what is more, unique to us, individually. We’re either crows or else peacocks (or swans, or whatever), and while we can fully develop our own potential, we can’t go beyond that; so that everyone has their own personal spiritual journey, that cannot be directed by someone else, or even influenced by someone else. If we don’t have the potential for some spiritual attainment --- and many of us don’t --- then there is no way following someone else or copying someone else can help us attain what they have attained (or claim to have attained).

Spence, on the other hand, claims that the inner font of spiritual absorption and insight is something that is part of our human heritage, and is open to us all, every one of us; in other words, that potential is not selective but universal; and all that is needed is proper applicaton, proper practice.

These two are contrasting claims. How do we resolve which claim is true? Like everything else, by looking at the evidence, as well as the reasoning.


(Again, the usual qualification: Always assuming all of this even a thing, always assuming all of this isn’t unvarnished bull shit. That possibility, while we’d do well to always keep in mind, but we keep it aside for the space of the discussion, because otherwise the discussion itself becomes moot.)


-----


Well, last time, when Spence and you had embarked on this discussion, kind of at random, I stepped in, because I was interested in the question, and tried to give some structure to it. (And then stepped back, because it was your discussion, yours and Spence’s, not mine.)

And it is not just a question of my interest. No doubt you yourself, as well as Spence himself, would be interested in a sensible resolution to the question, since clearly it is important to both of you? (As is evident from the fact that both of you so often bring out your respective POVs on this in your comments.)

And, well, you both did start the discussion.

Yes, that discussion was a disappointment, in the sense that it did not live up to what I was expecting from it. But it wasn’t you who disappointed me. It was the discussion itself. And, to be quite frank, it was Spence’s antics in that discussion that I found …peculiar. I found him using verbal tricks to keep on sidestepping and sliding off, simply refusing to squarely face the issue, and for some reason known only to himself kept pretending that you were saying exactly what he’s saying. I’ve no clue why he was doing that, because for one thing resolving this issue would be of interest to him also, or so I thought; and in any case, if he did not want to engage with the issue, no one was forcing him, and he could very easily have simply said, “Sorry, I’m not interested in engaging with that discussion.” That’s perfectly fine, and that would have been the end of it. I mean, why put on the appearance of engagement, while actually not engaging at all?

Anyway, I said the above not to apportion blame or anything. Not a big deal, at all. I clarified that, only to clearly explain the nature of my disappointment. Which is why, now that the two of you have exchanged some ten or fifteen or so posts on the same subject once again, that earlier discussion came back to mind, which is why I mentioned it in passing; but without, this time, trying to facilitate a proper structured discussion.

That’s all there is to it. No big deal. And most certainly not personal. The “disappointment” was only as far as the discussion, not with personalities. As far as people’s roles in the discussion, it wasn’t with you at all, but I suppose to an extent with Spence. (But even with him it was nothing personal, and no big deal. If he doesn’t want to engage with that particular topic with you, then he has every right not to, with no question of anyone else being “disappointed” per se. It’s just that I’d have preferred it if he’d said that upfront, instead of putting up those slippery quasi-arguments that were all sound and fury and verbiage, but said nothing at all. Even so, nothing personal, and no big deal.)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


It kind of boils down to why we think what we think. Examining that is something I myself have found useful, in order to remove misconceptions and wrong ideas that all of us are subject to. I was thinking the two of you might find it useful, and fun as well, and in the process I’d get to piggy-back on and get to learn something.

Well, apparently not. And that’s fine too.


-----


Again, that was the conceptual part of your disagreement, that I was referring to.

The other thing here, about who should be doing what: Well that part is between the two of you. I admit that while I find Spence’s words wise, but I do find it curious that he should buttonhole you against your wishes and proselytize to you although you keep saying you’re not interested; and that does, as you say, remind me of missionary types, whether Christian or Muslim; but that’s really not my business, and it’s really not my place to poke my nose in that part of your disagreement. What I was talking about is that conceptual disagreement; not so much this other disagreement over conduct.


Hi AR:
You asked if I might have responded tot he wrong post. Yes, possibly, of course. Mistakes are a daily event for me.

What I was trying to get out was your comment about Um and my perspectives and views. They aren't actually in conflict and so there won't be a "meeting in the middle"...They are a display of two ways of describing similar things, from two different sets of conditioning.

I can't speak for Um, but I think he does a good job expressing his views and sentiments. They are going to appeal to some.

No one likes to be called a 'liar' in public especially when it isn't true. But people do react to things and that's OK. The world is full of re-action, and we are about trying to get ahead of that to "action"..pro-active living, to the extent we can, and that's the avenue we promote.

That's internal work.

And the building of internal wealth. My Master said several times that our meditation is our responsibility to burn our own karma, to eliminate our own reactivity and impressions from the past. In this way we lighten our burden and see things more clearly, objectively.

So, from a psychological perspective this is very healthy. We are letting our thoughts proceed and fade away as we simply witness them from a perspective of peace, which devotion gives us.

So we become more aware of what is in us, that we didn't know, that was subconscious, and at the same time, by accepting it calmly, it fades away. Something more is unlocked. Layers begin to fade away. How? Simply looking at them with dispassion. That is what you might call an inner miracle, and of course, since those things don't have the same power, they have been exposed to the conscious mind, they have less and less power to influence us without our permission.

If you think Putin is a tyrant (no argument there) there is another tyrant operating in secret in each one's subconscious. Let's expose him! But the cost is to accept him for what he is, knowing that mere exposure works the rest in his gradual erasure.

This simple meditation practice, of which there are many versions across many different beliefs, can lead to so much more.

It's not simply that we have these hidden subconscious impressions to burn away. But that under them are real treasures...the inner experiences, and that direct connection to reality. Witnessing, it's like taking an outdoor shower naked on a warm summer day in a warm rain surrounded by beauty.

Hi AR:
You asked if I might have responded tot he wrong post. Yes, possibly, of course. Mistakes are a daily event for me.

What I was trying to get at was your comment about Um and my perspectives and views. They aren't actually in conflict and so there won't be a "meeting in the middle"...They are a display of two ways of describing similar things, from two different sets of conditioning. Um has very firm beliefs that the basic truth of the inner path can only come from certain certified individuals, namely the RSSB Masters. We differ on that, but to me that's cosmetic. Um does not argue with the inner path, nor the fact that it is in everyone. It is only accessible, in the older traditions, to those the Master has initiated. But what Um may not realize is that the process can begin quite a long time before anything like formal initiation by a Master. And all those stages are not only legitimate, but part of the "path".

I can't speak for Um, but I think he does a good job expressing his views and sentiments. They are going to appeal to some who have been initiated. But to me the process of outward initiation and even outward Master is a human layer on top of a physiological reality that is nearly universal.

No one likes to be called a 'liar' in public especially when it isn't true. But people do react to things and that's OK. The world is full of re-action, and we are about trying to get ahead of that to "action"..pro-active living, to the extent we can, and that's the avenue we promote.

That's internal work.

And the building of internal wealth. My Master said several times that our meditation is our responsibility to burn our own karma, to eliminate our own reactivity and impressions from the past. In this way we lighten our burden and see things more clearly, objectively.

So, from a psychological perspective this is very healthy. We are letting our thoughts proceed and fade away as we simply witness them from a perspective of peace, which devotion gives us.

So we become more aware of what is in us, that we didn't know, that was subconscious, and at the same time, by accepting it calmly, it fades away. Something more is unlocked. Layers begin to fade away. How? Simply looking at them with dispassion. That is what you might call an inner miracle, and of course, since those things don't have the same power, they have been exposed to the conscious mind, they have less and less power to influence us without our permission.

If you think Putin is a tyrant (no argument there) there is another tyrant operating in secret in each one's subconscious. Let's expose him! But the cost is to accept him for what he is, knowing that mere exposure works the rest in his gradual erasure.

This simple meditation practice, of which there are many versions across many different beliefs, can lead to so much more.

It's not simply that we have these hidden subconscious impressions to burn away. But that under them are real treasures...the inner experiences, and that direct connection to reality. Witnessing, it's like taking an outdoor shower naked on a warm summer day in a warm rain surrounded by beauty.

"You asked if I might have responded tot he wrong post. Yes, possibly, of course. Mistakes are a daily event for me."


Cool. Not a problem, at all, Spence! Your response seemed a bit of a non sequitur, as far as my post; so I thought to clarify, that's all.


----------


"Um and my perspectives and views. They aren't actually in conflict "


God, I find myself in that same spot, that I did *not* want to be in.

Whether you want to discuss this out with him or not is up to you; but how on earth can you keep claiming your POVs don't disagree?

um is saying that not every individual comes equipped with the potential for spiritual development; and even those that do don't come equipped with the same potential; so that, while for those (few?) who do, it makes sense to develop that potential, if they so wish; but that kind of "development" is simply not possible for those that don't come so equipped. So that, it is both wrong, as well as cruel, for those who do come so equipped, to pretend that that attainment is open to everybody.

You, on the other hand, are saying the exact opposite. As you very clearly agreed, in response to the occasional interjection from me on the other thread, and here as well: your POV is that this spiritual uplift, of which you speak, is a universal human condition, that all of us come equipped with. So that, while obviously people are free to do (or not do) what they like, but it does make sense to make full use of this wonderful potential that providence has equipped all of us with.

I'm not getting into which of those two is the correct POV. That's for the two of you to suss out, if you'd like to that is. But that those two claims are diametrically opposed, is without a shadow of a doubt true. I don't see why you keep claiming otherwise.


----------


"No one likes to be called a 'liar' in public especially when it isn't true. "


Agreed. But that's between the two of you, and it's not my place to poke my nose in a personal disagreement between the two of you.


----------


"This simple meditation practice, of which there are many versions across many different beliefs, can lead to so much more."


Oh, I agree. While I'm skeptical about a great deal of this, but I do see the huge potential, that's, well, *potentially* there; as well as a not insignificant incidental benefit as well, that's without a doubt on offer, as well. As you know, as far as I am concerned, I'm fully onboard, already, with the meditation agenda/project.

@ AR

Walking the path of rational thinking comes also with some gifts .... clear thinking
Hahahaa
It was a pleasure to read your summary it helps me to see more details.

The stand i take is complex and it is in danger of being seen as deterministic. What is not there cannot be created and what is there can be developed. Even here the word "developed" is a tricky one. Plants do not grow without water, earth and light but these things, without which there is no growth, do not grow the plant.

All mysticism starts with a human being having an spontaneous experience that creates an altered state of consciousness. It can me be of short durance[ revelation, insight etc] or a once and for all change as to be found with NDE's or as described bu Mrs. Duran.

There starts the problem!

Those that have these "once and for all changes" have to share the same realm with others. They are now two sided ... they know the world from before the event and after. They also remember the language, the words and concepts and that is all they have at their possession to communicate with the rest.

Next, comes the question, about reality. Is the reality before the event "THE" reality or is the reality after the event the reality, or higher degree of reality.

What we find in literature is the comparison of that new reality with the day to day reality, as waking with sleeping and dreaming. That is probably the best way to explain that it is EXPERIENCED that way .. what doesn't mean to say it "IS" higher, other etc!

Being experienced that way, those that have it have presented it as a "goal" of life.

That too, seen from their perspective, is the best and only thing to do but that doesn't mean it is the truth. I am convinced, if such a thing might happen to me I will react as they did and do.

That brings me to the statement .. that if there is a cause to these events other than the person involved, that cause failed to inform me and failing to inform me, means humanity as a whole. To illustrate what I mean I used the believe that the god of the 3 monotheistic religion, chose a people as his favorite and allowed them an territory to be considered as "god given theirs". It is a kind of insight and conclusion as Baba Faqir Chand had when he discovered that both the students of his own teacher Shiv Brat Lal and his own, had experiences in which they appeared and counseled them, without their knowledge.

So
[1] there are those that have spontaneous experiences
[2] there are those that created experiences by manipulating the brain-body

And there is no way that the number one experiences can be created or re-created by practices use to achieve the number two experiences. That said being around people that have gone through the "once and for all experience" might bring to the surface the latent possibilities in others.

And the rest is a matter of how these experiences, be it one or number two are used in the public domain.

All suggestions that people can and should change, and can and should be helped etc tips the balance of superiority and inferiority, and the source of much suffering humanity has to face.

We human beings are first and for all natural beings and as such, there is nothing that can be changed. As we are also cultural beings we can evolve, change and alter but that doesn't effect the natural being at all.

Idealists, people that think that they have something to offer to nature, have cause unmeasurable suffering in the course of human history.

Imagine how much people after the introduction of eastern thinking in the west in the seventies have toiled in vain to was put before them as "If they would only ....".
They are fooled like the man that fooled the [starving] donkey through a field of carrots by holding just ONE carrot before the eyes of the donkey. And poor donkey focussing on that one carrot was not able to see the carrots all around him.

That is what I call a evil

@ Spence / AR

>> Um has very firm beliefs that the basic truth of the inner path can only come from certain certified individuals, namely the RSSB Masters.<<

No I don't !

I never said it I never suggested it.

A path is a trajectory chosen to walk. Those that have summit to walk such an path have no freedom of their own to change it if they do they become heretics the own and use something that is not theirs.

Hi Um and AR
Reading your essays I think I have a better understanding and can clarify my position.

I believe the entire path has a physiological basis built into practically everyone. Most anyone with a human body in a wide variety of conditions and willing to practice, willing to adjust their lifestyle to support their practice, and interested to do so will make progress.

Along the way we will need help, just as any aspiring pilot or surgeon will need instruction and support at key points along the way. They must also lead a disciplined life conducive to learning and practicing their profession. Utimately their progress depends in large part upon the hands, eyes, brain and environment of the aspirant.

Not everyone will go as far, but everyone can make progress because we all have basically the same equipment.

So progress is possible for anyone. Anyone can take a step forward. All those people who tried and gave up may have been looking for something that wasn't there. Or they may have needed better advice or some adjustments to what they were doing, or their lifestyle, that they weren't aware of or for whatever reason were unwilling or unable at the time, to make. But improvement through practice in meditation is there for everyone.

Sant Mat is also very hopeful and encouraging on that front.

To make it a little cleaner let's just assume that I'm only discussing the actual physiological equipment and experiences built into the human body, available to any sincere and devout ptactitioner (devout to their practice, and willing to be creative and adapt as their experience unfolds barriers and ways through them).

I'm not talking about the secret veiled, too complicated for us mortals mythos to which Um refers.

I'm talking about the reality underneath that culture bound D&D secret dungeon master guidebook created by those cultures.


@ Spence

>> I believe the entire path has a physiological basis built into practically everyone. Most anyone with a human body in a wide variety of conditions and willing to practice, willing to adjust their lifestyle to support their practice, and interested to do so will make progress.<<

You started out with this paragraph and it is exact where the problem starts.

You suppose that because the path, as possibility is part of the human make up, there is also the desire and willingness to develop it.

That is the same as thinking that Christ is the savior and that for that reason, it should be made available for all under the sun.

That is wrong and in the end evil.

Nobody needs the help of another human being to live a natural life. There is no reason to think that we are in a more miserable situations than plants and animals.

We are forced to swallow a culture what in the end mentally cripples humanity.

Culture is related to In-equality and nature with equality.

The mount everest exists
The mount everest can be climbed
People experience great joy and contentment in climbing that mountain
For those that are inspired there is nothing wrong in asking advice from those that did
BUT .....
To suggest that the mountain is there to be climbed
and
It is the goal of human life to climb it

IS ..... E V I L

"I believe the entire path has a physiological basis built into practically everyone. "


Hey, Spence.

Yep, I know. That's what you believe.

And um believes the exact opposite. He believes that only some, maybe only a few, have the physiological basis built into them.

And that is your core disagreement. That you may wish to suss out, if you like.

So far what both of you are doing is to simply assert your respective positions time and time again. If you like you could explain to each other your reasons for believing what you do, as far as this; if you like you could present your evidence, reasoning, argument, to see which is true.

(It doesn't have to be a contest, obviously, of course not. But you both seem to believe your own positions implicitly. Wouldn't you want to cross-check your position, find out if you're actually right, or whether you might be mistaken after all? I would, in your place. And the only way to do that is to marshall your arguments and your evidence and your reasoning, in defense of your respective positions. ----------But your call, whether you want to try this. Like I'd done in the other thread as well, with this preface I'm right out of here. Watching in, absolutely, for what might now be discussed, or not discussed; but with lips zippered.)

@ Spence and AR

Dad shall I continue educate myself?
Why do you ask me?
I did not go to college why would you?

These look like simpel questions and answers but they are not that simple.
Nor what was asked nor what was given as an answer is to be found in the words.
To speak with Mrs Duran these words point at something BEHIND the words.

Then the dictum was:
Live a natural life in a natural way
and
A simple life in a simple way

Culture is all about growth, changes for the better, classes and people s that are better in cganging for the better than others etc .. it is the very source of all human missery

Nature, was, if we have to believe the words of the creator, GOOD as it was made.

The crow, the Nightingale and the eagle were all GOOD as they are.

Nature cannot be ameliorated ... lao zi , Changzi, Liezi and wunengzi .. already knew that thousands of years ago.

They called Congfu zi all sorts of names .. liar just one of the most kind ones
Hahahaha

OR ....simple said

As long as we pay and respect an academic more than any person that works with his hands and make them live in better houses and circumstances .... whatever mystics say is meaningless.

Let alone when mysticism itself is used as a means to excel

I've come to look at it this way. Spence follows the Path as a spence-ist. um follows the Path as an um-ist. They're different clays requiring different conditions.

@ Umami

Speaking about a path ... The poet Dante says in his first Canto of Inverno

CANTO 1

MIDWAY upon the journey of our life
I found myself within a forest dark,
For the straightforward pathway had been lost.

Ah me! how hard a thing it is to say
What was this forest savage, rough, and stern,
Which in the very thought renews the fear.

So bitter is it, death is little more;
But of the good to treat, which there I found,
Speak will I of the other things I saw there.

I cannot well repeat how there I entered,
So full was I of slumber at the moment
In which I had abandoned the true way.

In Italian the bitterness oif the experience sounds very different and agonizing.

Think for a moment of walking on a path in the woods, that all of a sudden turn out to be an "Animal trail"

Animal trails come from nowhere and go nowhere, they are ...NOT a path

Imagine what that means to the traveler.

There he loses everything and moreover there is nobody there to help him, he is all alone in a dark forest.

After many fases, that need not to be described, the once traveler, is busy to survive, he is going nowhere as he doesn't know where to go.

um,
Like uchit-manojism? All Paths lead to hell?

@ Umami,

My whole life I was on this or that path from point a to b, material mental and otherwise.

Then I lost track in the forest.

Whether there is a hell, a path etc I do not know and I do not care anymore.

There in the forest of life I deal with whatever presents it self. ... Just now all of a sudden an Indian young lady with her mother, people I haddend seen for more than a decade, rang the door to pay me a visit. We had some good Chai

They left and Now I answer you.

@ Umami

And speaking with them about bygone times, times that brought smiles and laughter on or faces, we came to speak about the differences in culture between Indians and westerners.

She also referred to an guru appearing in her dreams, counseling her. In thew days a often was invited to stay with this or that Indian family and also in India I heard people speaking of this type of experience as if it was the most normal thing in the world.

In the past I never reacted but this time a said that I didn't know any western having that type of experience and than she gave a remarkable answer. She said: "Um that is not necessary" Seeing my surprise she added: "Look Um you people have access to the guru in the body, you can ask questions directly, write letters etc ... we do not have that opportunity but another one to the same effect."

True or not .. it was a remarkable answer. That again brought it home to me how different Sant Mat is seen by Indians

@ AR
In reaction to your last message to Spence.

What he writes is common ground for all those that are Initiated by MCS,

As I have often tried to explain, whatever humans do think and feel is part of an tale or game. Sant Mat too is a story and all that participate in that story cannot but speak from within that story. If on the borders of the ganga thew priests waves the lamps in honor of the hindu dieties, that waving has an meaning attributed to it, a meaning that is shared with all present. For me as an onlooking witness it has no meaning. Whatever happens during that ceremony is predictable from within that story...

Those that participate cannot understand that what has meaning for them does not have any meaning attached to it. So Spence, taking part in the ceremony cannot but speak as he does.

I participated also in that ceremony, that tale, that story, that drama and outside all things are seen different. He cannot believe there is an outside for me .. as the script describes once in you are in for always.

Understanding what I write or even worst agreeing, would push him outside the circle of ceremonies and why should he do it?

So there is nothing to explain. Taking stand on another point makes things seen in another perspective. That can only be shared with those in the same position.

There is nothing to cross check. etc ... only when two people standing on the same place they can discuss what they see and exchange their individual appreciations for what there is to see and the values that can be attributed to what is seen.

I can do my best to share with others what I see, but that should not be an reason for them to leave their stand etc and I am not inviting anybody as I do not know whether that place will suit them and I have nothing to give in compensation when it does not
hahahaha .. I have been a good son to my father

In fact the call in my head to stop reading and writing here presents itself more frequent and more louder and the number of reactions that I delete after writing them is growing in number.

The difference between me and spence is that what is good for me is good for me and that is all. The idea that what is good for me is also good for another never crosses my mind, never. I was an lauzy Christian hahaha without any desire to bring the good message of the savior to the world and why should I tell others about a path... let them walk alone in peace, wherever fate has placed them. They cannot save me and I cannot save them from whatever.

So be it

Hi Appreciative
You wrote
"Wouldn't you want to cross-check your position, find out if you're actually right, or whether you might be mistaken after all? I would, in your place. And the only way to do that is to marshall your arguments and your evidence and your reasoning, in defense of your respective positions"

No fixed position is right. We are continuously in motion, AR. But my approach to determining what is right or wrong is to look and listen, not to defend. If course, nothing wrong with stating my experience and interpretation of it. I wouldn't elevate that to universal truth. What I believe in general about the benefit of meditation is simply from a. My own experience and B. A small mountain of hard medical research on meditation anyone can read for themselves, C. My love for my Master, and D. My general belief in self-improvement and personal growth as a lifestyle.

These are four related things but by no means are they the same. The research is already out there. The rest is subjective. That's why I can't say Um is wrong. I don't believe he is.

But in parallel fashion to what Um wrote, beyond expressing my views, and leaving it to the reader to clarify for themselves their own current place in reality, I prefer meditation. Headed there now...

@AR

As the english version of "Healing Silence" by Mrs. Duran is not available I ordered the version in German.

Although I understand spoken German as easy as Dutch, written German has never been a pleasure.

Anyway, I went through two tirds of the book, the transcript of an interview that stretched out over a period of several weeks, I had to give up. The resistance and the confusion that did built itself up was to big to continue.

Reading along I was remembered of many individual incidents in my life that seem all related to what she is trying to convey.

It is all too confusing and I have had it.

What I have tried to write here over time, in the light of what she shares with the world that has happened to her, is even more true than I could ever have imagined to be true.

Nobody, for no reason, should ever be exposed to these things unless it has dawned upon him or her naturally, without any desire, let alone effort.

The word evil and liar in retrospect are sweet words.

Hi, um.

Difficult in terms of the language issue you refer to, or difficult in terms of the content itself? If that latter, then difficult how --- because her ideas are complex and difficult to follow, or because you find her ideas personally uncomfortable somehow?

I'm a bit curious how you're so sure that her ideas are necessarily true. Do you mean that they correspond with your own personal experience? Are you hinting that you've yourself had experiences not dissimilar to hers? If so I'd be curious, very curious indeed, to hear some more about them!


(Yolande's website, as well as a Youtube search page of her talks, sit bookmarked directly on my main browser panel, at least for the present. But I'm afraid I've not actually watched/heard anything further from her so far, because I got distracted watching, of all things, the videos of the Depp-Heard trial that are floating around!! While you've been plowing your way through Yolande's book, and in German no less. I guess I'm a far shallower soul than you ---- although in my defense the trial does raise some interesting points about gender equations, about our general ideas and misconceptions and how they sometimes differ so much from reality, and also about the sheer incisiveness of some of the questioning there that's kind of an object lesson in clarity of thought and solid evidence cutting through BS.)

@ AR

I really have had it AR with everything and more then ever do consent with the words of Wittgenstein and the biding in the intro of the book "cloud of unknowing"....
Do not speak about what cannot be spoken of and do not go there where you are not called to go.

I should have heed the words of my father:
I never studied, why would you.

These are formulas AR ... it could also read I never was inspirituality, why would you

or heed the words of our beloved son:

Dad, do I have to know it??
Hahahaha
His answers are more profound an joyous that any book has ever given me

Wave ..... wave.... :-)

@ AR

You deserve an answer although just small:

>> Difficult in terms of the language issue you refer to, or difficult in terms of the content itself? If that latter, then difficult how --- because her ideas are complex and difficult to follow, or because you find her ideas personally uncomfortable somehow?<<

She does her utmost best to explain to a journalist friend what she has experienced and how her experience has changed over the years. So no blame on her. Whether what she says is true or not is in fact material as her experience is not an integral part of the world we all share together. So she is just describing her experience and as that experience is related to how she perceives her self as a human being, the world she lives in and the different interactions, there can not be a question of truth.

She had to become clear with something out of the blue and as it didn't stop with an stand alone experience she had to deal with it. Well in the course of my life I have had all sorts of stand alone experiences, that I was never able grasp properly but reading her story they one after the other popped up in my mind. She managed to make what happened to her understandable for herself, or better said, she, like people that have an NDE had to accept the experience because these experiences when you have them you are not able and not willing to get rid of them.

She herself having no book knowledge of her self had no proper words and concepts to talk about her inner life. Later in the book she starts to use the concepts of Shri Nisargadatta.

Her descriptions of what goes through her in the interior resembles a bit of the atmosphere I remember reading works of women mystics in the middle ages etc as Theressa of Avilla, and Hildegard of Bingen when the hint at the experience they name as "unio mystica" and has a very sensual undertone.

Reading and listening to material of Shri Nisargadatta and others like him has always been frustrating to say the least.

You see to talk about a path and a practice that leads to the achievement as proposed by that path, existent and true or not, is not that much of a problem. But to talk about the outcome without the path leading up to that outcome is, as all mystics say, not done and if it is done it is most unconformable, to use your words very uncomfortable.

Interesting.

That reminds me of a friend of mine. An elderly lady whom I know IRL. A perfectly respectable, typically upper-middle-class-bourgeois, and perfectly ordinary lady. A housewife, but well educated. When around middle aged, she went through a very difficult series of personal catastrophes --- that I won't detail, because they are personal to her --- but that sent her whole well-ordered world crashing all around her. Which is when, out the blue, she had a sudden ...experience.

I've talked long with her. She originally didn't know what was happening to her, she thought in the midst of all her troubles she was losing her mind. Then, afterwards, she gravitated to interpreting, and further exploring, her condition within the paradigm of Kundalini Yoga. She 'progressed' a fair bit on that path. Afterwards, though, she came to both identify with as well as 'follow', in a manner of speaking, Ramana Maharshi (who, as you might know, is a kissing cousin, so to say, of Nisargadatta Maharaj).

So well, Yolande's case seems very similar to hers. Except of course, this lady of my acquaintance quietly goes about her life, drawing water fetching wood, and very few know of her inner experiences. But to those very few who are interested, she does open up, if and when asked; but never, ever does she charge a single penny for any of it, never ever has she profited the teeniest tiniest bit off of her experiences. Which in my book directly makes her considerably more believable, because she simply has nothing to gain from subterfuge, not wealth, not loose change, not celebrity, not even casual empty fame.

----------

You're right, life's short enough, and one day soon we'll be gone, all of us. Seen in that light, all of this sound and fury seems very blinkered. Retiring into unthinking unseeking languor and rest does seem tempting, and, who knows, may even be wise.

No one should be called a liar for stating their experience and beliefs.
Call someone a liar for being insincere, for stating things for some financial benefit, if you must. Though even there is quite a danger of inflating one's own ego.

But just as revealing hidden mystical secrets, apparently, is verboten, then how much the sin of anger and accusation, publicly and openly, without apology, expressed?

No, I don't think anyone needs nor should keep their experience secret, certainly not to themselves, and therefore, not to anyone else who chooses to listen.

It will automatically be secret to those without basis to understand.

Everyone should be absolutely comfortable voicing their experience and views, so long as they express these things naturally, no strings attached, just as an expression. Like any artist, who doesn't need permission and never a censor.

Rather than try to fit the world into one track, we can celebrate the variety of spiritual, religious and human experience, certainly not attempt to squeeze it into our tiny one dimensional world view.

If there is a divine perspective, it encompasses all the others, and eliminates none, though that view would put these into a vastly broader perspective.

As for inner experiences, people have been expressing theirs for centuries. Even in modern film.

Douglas Trumbull, the special effects film maker, has done that for decades.

Watch Brainstorm if you want to see a reasonable attempt to visually depict what happens upon death.

Every artist expresses their experience as they should.

@ AR

Well if you or the Lady you spoke of are able to read German or French, you might go through that book and compare notes.

If the lady ended up with Shri Ramana Maharshi, and related to kundalini, her experiences might be not incidental but ongoing.

AR my whole life I have always been of good faith. Today I feel betrayed by the snake oil sellers and "angry" that it lasted so long before opening my eyes for the truth.

The truth is that, the keys cannot be found in the streets .. every moment you spend there I have come to realize is a loss.and weakens one's natural powers.

Books should be burned.

"AR my whole life I have always been of good faith. Today I feel betrayed by the snake oil sellers and "angry" that it lasted so long before opening my eyes for the truth."


Hi, um. Not sure what you're alluding to. Do you mean your disagreement with Spence? Or is it something I said?

About Yolande's commercialization of her experiences, since we were discussing her, I shared with you my overall opinion of her, including my discomfort with monetizing things of that nature. While also full-throatedly and repeatedly appreciating both her experience and insight, as well as her overall demeanor. I hope it isn't what I said that has ended up apparently offending you?

(I ask because it isn't clear to me what you're referring to here, that seems to have upset you.)

@ AR

No, no AR I am not referring to you at all, I always felt at ease writing and reading with you, and it even has been instrumental in better understanding what goes on in my own house.

Nor is it Spence persé

Nor does it matter to me that somebody commercializes her experiences

I am frustrated and angry that it took me so long to understand the things I have been writing her and act upon them.

We are born to sing a song AR. An personal song that nobody can sing for us. Living in a society we have to learn how to sing, the rules of cultural singing. In the process we become so lost in the practice of singing according the cultural lore that we forget alltogether to use what we learned for the singing of our own song.

I learn ed, to talk from my parents, to think, believe and even feel as my teachers.
Most of the concepts I was given and accepted remained empty as i could not verify its content with mu own experience.. These days I would like to get rid of all this mental junk that serves no purpose. I am, I came to realize not born to know understand what god knows who has spend his whole life in, the many philosophical structures or religious belief systems and practices of mystic schools.

In short, if it was not put on my plate, many, maybe all things that I carry around in my mind, would not have ended there based upon my natural interests.

I would not have swallowed the many ideas I have been bombarded with since youth about becoming this and that, let alone better ... I am no longer willing to allow my anger to arise otherwise I would tear my apartment apart from realizing how stupid i have been all my life to give others the possibility to put an carrot before my nose.

Read the 4 points by which Spence wants to life and especially the fourth one, ... the change for the better. That he does so, is his business but that I wasted my time in listening to people like him infuriates me.

These days, bit by bit makes it clear what the effect of that mentality is upon humans ever since they live in groups

Before i explode here AR .. I stop and get myself coffee .. I should delete this outcry but let all rejoice.

So, do not worry about yourself, I appreciated converse with you

Hi Um
You wrote:
"Read the 4 points by which Spence wants to life and especially the fourth one, ... the change for the better. That he does so, is his business but that I wasted my time in listening to people like him infuriates me."

When you describe wasted time, isn't that a desire to overcome the past? Overcome the impressions from the past?

You get to define improvement however you like, Um. If what I wrote pushes you to do that, you are welcome. No fee attached.

Of course, that only means I was the tiny grain of sand in the oyster. The pearl is your making, if you accept the grain.

@ Spence

The message to become better is and has been a curse for humanity.
With at the top idealists the like of Pol Pot.

They are the slave masters of the world.
They are the ones that make people walk according their wishes, guiding them with a carrot of snake oil.

Hi Um
You wrote
"The message to become better is and has been a curse for humanity. At the top idealists the like of Pol Pot.

" They are the slave masters of the world.
"They are the ones that make people walk according their wishes, guiding them with a carrot of snake oil."

Not Abraham Lincoln
Not Mahatma Gandhi
Not Jesus Christ
Not Martin Luther King Jr.
Not John F. Kennedy
Not Bobby Kennedy
Not FDR
Not Sawan Singh Ji
Not Charan Singh Ji
Not Lord Alfred Tennyson
Not Mister Rogers
Not Carl Rogers
Not Carl Jung
Not Joseph Campell
Not Sir Isaac Newton
Not Elon Musk
Not Samuel Clemmons
Not Charles Darwin
Not Rumi
Not Shams
Not Dr. Charles Richard Drew
Not Marconi
Not Mozart
Not Freud
Not Steve Jobs
Not Alan Turing
Not Aryabhata
Not Plato
Not St. John of the Cross
Not Galileo
Not Van Gogh
Not John Lennon
Not Michaelangelo
Not Pythagoras
Not Descartes
Not Dag Hammerskold
Not Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord
Not Frank Lloyd Wright
Not Benjamin Franklin
Not Marie Curie
Not Linus Pauling
Not John Dalton
Not Mother Theresa
Not Desmond Tutu
Not Nelson Mandela
Not Rosa Parks
Not Maya Angelou
Not Anne Frank
Not Harriet Tubman
Not anyone who dreamed or encouraged others to dream.

They held no one back.
They encouraged hope, faith and effort.

Nihilism has imprisoned otherwise good people and made them useless.

@ Spence

Hahaha ........

You see Spence, on entering our fathers house you had to leave behind your social cultural outfit and many of these names do not offer a pretty outlook in their natural nakedness.

You were raised in an other social-cultural environment.

Hahahaha\ ... you would be liked to be listed as one of them.... you want to be seen heard and admired.

@ Spence

Nihilist ....that is correct as nothing of YOUR world is dear and near to me

Working for excelence Spence, in this world means automatically the degradation of others, other wise the would be no "better than .."

We live in a dualistic universe Spence ... and the higher YOU go, the more you can look down upon others, what makes you feel better.

It is all relative value Spence, nothing intrinsic.

Yes I do understand you like to keep up the "good" work. and the possibilities to "help others"

Het taught me this lesson:
Never go out of your way to help others.
but
whenever, walking your path of life,
someone asks for help, do give it .

There are all sorts of "help" and "helpers"
some are good,
some are bad,
realy bad or better said evil.
those that are proud to see what their left and right hand does.

Once the fear has gone many people and things become pathetic.

July is a long ways away

I’m on a roll…

One final thought—the biggest mistake any guru can ever make is to allow anyone to think they are God. It should be spelled out in no uncertain terms that they are merely a teacher and equal. It’s almost criminal to allow others to believe you’re God. We’re all equal to each other. God is something different altogether.

@ Sonya

In every community their are ministers. People go to them to ask for advice to overcome the problems they face, they even would ask them what colour of shoes to buy.

But if the minister is in problems and seeks help from them, they laugh as the minister must be joking.

That is the minister-syndrom

For asking help, the one that is asked and supposed to be able to render that help, must be without the need of help.

Perfect masters are created by the followers. That is a sine qua non to following them. No master will be able to make them see otherwise.

The followers do advocate their guru's to the greater glory of themselves.
In a world of many masters, teachers etc .. of course the one you chose must be the best , and perfect hahahaha

Hi UM:
There is no dualism when the same truth others are attempting to express resonates within you.
Then the truth in you is all that matters, and you may honor that it resonates with others, too.

Nanak said "Don't shout at the darkness, Light a Candle!"
Maharaji repeated this often.

And when President John F. Kennedy said exactly the same thing in his inaugural address, it was clear he had read it and it had resonated within him.

So it wasn't actually about Nanak or Maharaji or Kennedy, but the truth they both felt in those words.

When John Lennon said we should imagine all people living and loving each other as One, that isn't about John. It's about the truth of the message.

Do not make these things personal, Um. Do not be insulted by the notion that you have something to learn.

Do not be insulted that the one you learn from is also learning as well, and may also learn from you.

Let go Caste and Creed, and follow what is in you. Let the world's words filter down to the ones that resonate with your own truth, and love the fact that this Truth is not owned by anyone. Forget the coffee grounds. Enjoy the coffee itself. Where there is coffee, there must be grounds.

The grounds are evidence coffee is also there!

It is a universal wealth everyone may obtain. Everyone can grow.

You should enjoy that and not be insulted by it. There is no cost to it. It is free for all.

Just learn to attend to that, and don't feel compelled to comment negatively on anyone else. That's a bad habit and distracts from attention upon the good.

Hi Um:

I noticed you wrote this:
"He taught me this lesson:
Never go out of your way to help others."

I'm sorry but he also taught, as does Baba Ji, and quite often, that we should all go well out of our way to help anyone and everyone.

@ Spence

He used to say: "The minds needs a lot of hammering"

So let us repeat:
THE EVIL OF WEALTH .. what it is all about.

It is not about the wealth itself.
Wealth being
=material
=mental and
=spiritual.

Nor is it about the way how the wealth was attained.

What iis EVIL is the way how it is used in relation to other human beings.

Taoist writers, the like of Lao Zi and his like spirited followers go at freat length to speak about that EVIL.

The describe it as being the root of much other human evil.

They start out with making it clear that only the SHOWING of wealth is the source of disaster, let alone what I have added here time and again,.

The suggestion that:;
The possession of a given wealth is a necessity sine qua non for living a human life to the full.

What makes it more evil, is the adition that help is needed and that they are willing and able to give that help.

Now let us turn to what a Chinese translator as to say in his Commentary to chapter 3 of the TAO TE CHING:
[ free randition of the commentaries]

1] When we glorify ACHIEVERS and set them aside for special treatment, people will COMPETE AGGRESIVELY and step over one another to ACHIEVE that glory.

[2] Similarly, when we place a high value on certain goods [ be they material mental or spiritual], there wil be those who plot to take by force or by trickery

In general, whenever we point at anything as desirable, a wave of disruption, ripples through society { as can be seen on this blog ... hahaha]

People begin to think of ways to get more of the desirable thing, often at the expense of others [The raise of humans that want to help other humans, those that set up a shop as mental and spiritual snake oil selling, is staggering]

For that reason, a sagacious ruler refrains from setting aside certain individuals for glorification [ See your previous post Spence] OR .. designating certain [mental and spiritual goods as extremely valuable [ as is done by You Spence] and putting them on display [ as is done bu You spence , 777 and other minor sinners ... hahaha]
These are surefire ways of stimulating material [ mental and spiritual] DESIRES, which is a bottomless pit.

[3] Although the sages empty people's hearts of [material, mental and spiritual] DESIRES and reduce their AMBITIONS for FAME, GLORY or [material, mental and SPIRITUAL >>> W E A L T H <<<<, they also pay particular attention for their BASIC needs [ Coffee and apple pie].

As rulers, the sages see to it that the people enjoy good health and do not go hungry.
As teachers, the sages give people teachings that provide spiritual sustenance and promote spiritual health [ I know, I know Spence but it excludes You .. you are the opposite of the one that initiate you as far as giving teaches to the public and in public]

[4] When people follow the way of the sages, the few who scheme and plot [ those that start their own schops, twisting the teachings that were given to them] wil find themselves unable to utilize their repertoire [ as mental and spiritual snake oil sellers] of clever ploys [ No shortness of debating techniques here ... hahaha]. The governance of the sages leaves no room for their contrived tactics [ hahahaha ...] and everything falls into place peacefully and NATURALLY.

So be it ... have fun Spence.

@ Spence

https://taoism.net/scholarly-attire/

That story is also funny in the way how dignataries of mental and spiritual wealth ... make themselves seen in their outfit.

It is still done today .... hahahaha. by religious degnitaries and followers of sorts.

The mind needs indeed a lot of hammering

Translation Chapter 3 / Tao te Ching

[1] Do not glorify the achievers
So the people will not squabble

[2] Do not treasure goods that are hard to obtain
So the people will not become thieves

[3] Do not show the desired things

So .....their hearts will not be confused

Thus the governance of the sage:
[1] Empties their hearts
[2] Fills their bellies
[3] Weakens their ambitions
[4] Strengthens their bones
[5] Let the people have no cunning and no greed

So ..... those who scheme will not dare to meddle

Act without contrivance

And ... nothing will be beyond control

Funny ....not only the [happy] faces but also the comments.

https://www.reddit.com/r/taoism/comments/v0goqb/actually_the_truth_is

Hi Um

There is no evil in a wealth we all share. Share, meaning no one can add to or take away from another's.

Wealth that one can display that others do not or cannot have is I think what you are speaking of.

But let me hammer away as well at the point of spirituality, and science, that we are all fleeting beings of nearly identical genetics. The differences between you and I are practically, in the larger picture of creation, non existent.

The great wealth you have is based on your attention.

You have the capacity to act kindly. If you value anything greater than that, then let me suggest doing so makes no sense.

There is no sense in valuing what you cannot have.

But kindness you can have. Your choice.

And I don't know of any spiritual wealth greater than that, Um.

So, displays of wealth are evil only to the extent that others are looking at them in that way. The sin of greed and attachments can be both among the wealthy display and the one seeing and craving.

But anyone who shares the wealth that everyone already carries is beyond greed and ego because there is nothing to covet. It is in everyone.

Internal experiences, at best, get us to that place. But you can fly there instantly merely by choosing to be kind. Choosing to attend to thoughts and acts of kindness. Not for the result. But the love in the thought and in the act of kindness itself is partaking of that wealth.

If you don't believe my inner experiences then by that doubt I'm not displaying any wealth and there is no sin. You are making sure I've committed no evil through your doubt and dismissal. Thank you for that.


But if you believe my experience, then please note protect me against that sin by believing what I say, that the wealth that resulted from all that was kindness and her child, Compassion. She is is already within you, and there is zero cost. Just keep your heart and mind attentive to that.

The entire creation will bow at your feet when you bow before Love and Kindness. The whole creation submits itself to kindness, which is the force of life and love from which it, you and I
are made.

@ Spence

I have said whatever there was to be said about the evil of wealth and I am not going to repeat it.

And ... I do not consider you to be a kind person, just to put it kindly ...hahaha

Hi Um
If you are not aware of the wealth I am speaking about, let me tell you that it is infinite in each of us, and the birthright of every human being. You share the account with all of us. You only need faith in the treasure of love within your own heart. Perhaps you trust some other person's expression more on this front.

You will find it written of in most the RSSB texts if you trust those. Rumi and Shams wrote about it extensively as did Mohammad and Jesus.

To become aware of something we must attend to it. But how can we do that if we aren't aware of it?

Entirely understandable, Um.

And if we are aware of it, there is nothing of greater interest.

@ Spence

If I happen to go to the market I buy my stuff and go home.

Going through the market I do heard the shouting of those that try to attract buyers, but only as background noise.

As said .. you do not understand.

Hi Um

It is well enough to understand what is in ourselves. And that is a journey. We have our conditioning, our upbringing and our point of view. And then we have what we really are, underneath all that.

For some of us it is necessary to give voice to our own understanding along the way, knowing that view is changing as we advance.

For others it is necessary to point the finger of accusation at other people, as if we actually understood them. As if people were fixed entities.

In both cases a destiny is being fulfilled. I greatly prefer the former to the latter. In this sense I would agree that I don't understand your need to do the latter. But I don't think I'm conditioned to ever understand why someone would look outside themselves, or travel miles to the grocery store to tell others they are wrong when their fridge at home is packed.

Still, the market place exists not only for the buyer but the critic.

Fortunately I'm not in the market place and have nothing to sell. Which I guess could be disappointing to the critic, looking to dissect product, or complain about price.

@ Spence

Hahahaha ... this blog is part of the market place and you are here as a seller

Hi Um
This is no market place because the ideas presented here, in Church of the Churchless are those of the individual, not of any organization.

No one is selling. There is no price attached to anything said.

Everyone has their own voice. If you disagree or agree that it's all internal to the reader.

You must be speaking about someone else who is selling their organization's system of belief for a price in an actual marketplace.

So, I'm sorry but I must return you message to the sender. Your message was sent to the wrong address.

@ Spence

Hahaha .... The evil of wealth, is in the showing

I have nothing to show but you do it, in each and every response to whomever posts here.

Hi Um
You wrote
"I have nothing to show but you do it, in each and every response to whomever posts here."

Um, in every comment you and I both show a point of view. Nihilism and Optimism. You and i are both in the market speaking. It can't be helped. You must be who you are and so must I.

But I suggest that at best we represent a point of view, not a personality.

One view is a closed binary system. Another, always leaves the door own and the light on.

In the closed binary system you are either right or wrong. The Nihilist insists that are right and the rest of the world is wrong.

In the open system of the optimist, we are all in transition, moving towards the light, learning, growing, developing, each from our own place and position moving forward. The opinions of the optimist are always changing, therefore, because they are always seeing things from a moving platform. . We aren't there yet, have our flaws, but we are moving forward. Optimism accepts the mystery of the unknown because we are growing and don't claim to know everything. Knowledge opens the door to more. The great unknown is part of the life of the optimist.

How strange that the higher our spiritual experience, the humbler we become. And the optimist is the humblest is all, submitting themselves to all that is unknown yet with hope and faith.

So that is the position I believe in and try my best to represent. Not some ideal of perfection. How could occur from these flawed vessels? But the fact that what is flawed is in refinement, works in progress, roots in the mud but our face, like the Lotus flower, facing the sun.

Seeing the sun in all its beauty is Wealrh, yes, but a wealth in each of us.

@ Spence

What you see and how you value what you see is just up to you. What matters is what you do next with it in the public domain the market. what makes it evil of wealth.

There is a difference in the way wealth is presented in the public domain between "old" money and "new"money "{the nouveau riche]. .... hahahaha

@ Spence

The "last word" as usual is ..YOURS.
Enjoy it.

Hi Um
You wrote
"There is a difference in the way wealth is presented in the public domain between "old" money and "new"money "{the nouveau riche]. .... hahahaha"

Old money is never self-conscious about these things, having never known anything else.

They have nothing to hide and rarely bother with appearances as you seem so concerned with.


777,

I think um is too straightforward to pretend to be someone else.

I started with the name 'anami.' Then I realized there used to be a 'swami anami' making comments, and I should be more original.

I'm the one who suggested keeping your feet warm to prevent night sweats.

The similarity between um and umami is suspicious, I suppose, but I promise, we're two different people. However, we both seem to like the Tao Te Ching, and I've had a satori or two of my own. I've even spent time in the Netherlands and was fond of Douwe Egberts Aroma Rood.

Umami:
"a category of taste in food (besides sweet, sour, salt, and bitter), corresponding to the flavor of glutamates, especially monosodium glutamate."
It's a Japanese word meaning "savoriness."

The fifth taste! Transcendent!

Apparently GSD has been flown to Singapore for treatment. He's been there for a number of days.
His upcoming satsang tour outside of India has been cancelled, including most of his North American visits, as of yesterday.

I've been looking for mainstream news on this but haven't found it, but satsang dates in Canada for sure have been cancelled

Well, it appears RSSB has finally updated their website. All satsangs in India and abroad have been cancelled, including the dera effective immediately until end of November. The update says GSD has been told to rest for his health.
Sounds serious if he's cancelled the next 6 months of satsangs and initiations. Hope he recovers quickly from this.

Thanks for the update, Truth be known..

“But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. “For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: “For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was."
James 1:22–25

Good God! Today was one of those days… most days are ok with maybe a hiccup or two, but today was one of those totally 💩 days.

I’m just sayin’ this cause people like to pretend that life is fine most of the time.

Personally, I find that life is 80/20. 80% of the time life is good. 20% of the time it’s a hot mess.

Oh well, tomorrow is another day…

The law of Karma vs. the law of Forgiveness.

Very different.

With forgiveness there is no 'theft' anymore

77

@ AR

What is the old bible all about if one had to put it in one phrase??

It is the story of humanity, narrowed down to one people under "divine" guidance.

It is also the blue print so to say of grammar.
In what sense?

Well: if A person says .. he pics an apple.
That phrase has an actor, an verb and one what we call in our grammar, the one that suffers the consequences of the verb, the action, "the suffering subject"

All history books and general said all written literature focuses on the ACTOR..

Even our judicial system focuses mainly on the criminal as actor. That means there is hardly room for what the action means for the one that suffers the consequences of the criminal actor.

It seems as if only the actor matters.

So history books speak mostly about how this or that, king, general etc conquered this or that and what were the consequenses of their activities for themselves ...but.... hardly about those that suffered from these actions.

One could say that there does not exists written history about the "suffering subjects"

So back to the old testament...
The old testament tells a story of a people as been chosen by divine discretion.

I tells us that under the command and guidance of god everything is done to pave the path of his people.

You can read there about an almost endless stream of people, cities and individuals had to be destroyed for the welfare of that people. But no word is to be found what that meant for those peoples that were deprived of their rights, to live, to own, to flourish.

We have all sorts of words that makes killing justified .. in the name of god, country, flag, democracy, justice , you name it.

But for those that suffered from these "justified" actions these actions only mean that .. without their consent, their life was taken for no justifiable reason.

Now think AR what is ingrained in the minds of the people of the book, the three monotheistic religions of the world, that thy are free to destroy under divine guidance in order to pursuit their goals.

It is all to be found in the history books

Now have some coffee and go on thinking how this is related to this blog ... hahaha

OH before I forget.

The book holds also the 10 commandments.
One of them says: "Ye shall not kill"
I does not say, you can kill "the bad" ones and spare the "good" ones
Bad and good can mean here anything, race, colour, identity etc.
Killing is ending the life without consent of the one that is killed

What does this mean?

Well these are the instructions for OTHERS than the actors.
Or, the actors can kill under divine guidance but the reactors have to face the wrath of the same divine power.

Well AR ... that is in my point of view the effect of an "book" on the minds of the people that lives by that book, the three monotheistic religions.

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