Like Walt Whitman said, we all contain multitudes

Yesterday I surprised myself. Also, the day before. And today. In fact, every day. I surprise myself when my view of life changes from what it was before.

Which isn't really surprising, since life is full of change. It could even be said that life is change. Hearts beat. Lungs breathe. Neurons fire. When life becomes unchanging, that's called death.

The surprise that brought this blog post to life was me saying in a comment that I agreed with what another commenter had said about theistic religions being more satisfying. I wrote:

You might be surprised to hear this, but I also agree that theistic religions tend to be more satisfying than non-theistic faiths like Buddhism. This seems to be why so many Buddhists look upon the Buddha as a divine being rather than a mere teacher. And why prayer wheels, repeating Namu Amida Butsu as a mantra, and such are more popular than following the breath in meditation. My problem is that while I can occasionally pretend that I believe in a personal divine being, I really don't, so my occasional half-hearted attempts at embracing theism don't get me very far.

So I'm a devout atheist who dabbles occasionally with believing in a god, in sort of the same way as I'm a raspberry jam lover who occasionally buys a different flavor to put on my morning toast, but so far I've always returned to raspberry after a brief dalliance with another type of jam.

Walt Whitman, the poet, famously said:

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)

We all do. There isn't a single stable unchanging "me" or "you" or "them" anywhere to be found. We all contain multitudes. We all contradict ourselves. 

Religious believers contain a bit of atheism, just as atheists contain a bit of religious belief. Faithful spouses contain a bit of promiscuity, just as promiscuous people contain a bit of faithful spouse'ness. Liberals contain a bit of conservatism, just as conservatives contain a bit of liberalism.

Those bits may be mostly hidden, barely recognized, rarely or never acted upon.

However, to be human is to be complicated. We may try to put on a simple consistent face to the world, but within us there's always the potential of being a considerably different person than we are now.

This is beautiful.

The multitudes that comprise each of us are hugely more interesting than a solitary unchanging self would be. Our capacity to be many, not one, allows for growth, development, progress, unpredictability, creativity.

Imagine how blah a movie about the life of someone with no contradictions would be. It wouldn't take long before we'd become bored with the character, since there would be little drama to them.

When my wife and I started watching Ted Lasso on Apple TV+, I grew worried after the first few episodes. Lasso was so upbeat and positive in every circumstance, he seemed one-dimensional, not all that interesting.

Gradually, though, we got to know Ted Lasso in more depth, thanks to excellent writing and plot lines. The darker side of Lasso was exposed. We got insights into why his demeanor is usually so cheerful, and why sometimes he falls into despair (and panic attacks).

I never felt that the Ted Lasso character got diminished as the multitudes within him were revealed, not just the original Happy Face Lasso. With every contradiction that came to light, Lasso became more interesting and human, not less.

A commentary on Whitman's poem includes this passage:

What are arguably Whitman’s most famous lines appear here: “Do I contradict myself? / Very well then I contradict myself, / (I am large, I contain multitudes.)”

Whitman is recasting one of Ralph Waldo Emerson’s central ideas: “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. . . . Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. . . . To be great is to be misunderstood.”

For Whitman, as we have seen, the self is a continually evolving and expanding entity, and new experiences will always broaden and challenge and upset what a self believed earlier.

We must learn to be grateful to arrive at contradictions and to cultivate a sense of a self open and aware enough to “speak against” (the root meaning of “contradict”) the self that existed yesterday.

As “Song of Myself” has demonstrated throughout, a self that does not change is a stunted identity, dead to the transforming stimuli of the multitudinous world around us, stimuli that include the transforming words of this poem.

Comments

[um]

hahaha ... he said:

"nobody is allowed to go that far astray, that they cannot be brought back to the path"

hahahaha

He will send his dogs after you or use whatever other trick as ....

After all the whole concept of Sant Mat is based on the story of Kabir, told in the tale of the Shepherd, bringing the owners sheep back into the stable without the consent of the sheep.

Before you know you are writing again RSSB books .... hahahaha

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
Even RSSB is changing, and going through its own contradictions.

The only single place of unaltered truth is reality. And the inner reality is beyond words or description.

Our understanding changes.

Atheism is real. And so is Spirit.

Religion, and philosophy, even science, are simply means to describe it.

And those change as our understanding changes.

Take free will. At one level we don't have any.

At another, there can be no personal responsibility or action without it. It is essential.

The idea of free will, like the empty space inside the cup, has no reality. But without that empty space the cup has no function.

We are all on a journey. And the view must change for us to progress. Even for you and I. Especially for you and I Um.

There is no shame, and actually all honor, to see others acknowldge and change.

But for you and I not to do so is shameful.

[Spence Tepper]

"Life is a foreign language. Everyone mispronounces it."
Robert Morley

[um]

@ Spence

Over time only culture changes, what is cultured remains the same.

What ever is, is an endless variation of the same.
Some are intrigued by the ever changing variety and others by the sameness.

You will die as you were born.

Rssb is only changing, in the sense of adapting to the spirit of the time. Those that are focused on that aspect are like those that are looking at the always changing pattern and movement of the surface of the ocean. Otherwise the path is still as it was. You yourself have described it so to be yesterday or another day before.

What is ended is what was started in the 80ties, the colorful area of extrovert people, freeing itself from the sober times after the war. Now we are again back to business, no dancing around pathetic screaming ..love is all you need

It is all nothing but a human affair, food for psychologists, sociologfists etc.
UNDER all roles humans are HUMAN .... even gurus.

There can never be something new to being human

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"There can never be something new to being human"

Every time we learn something new, pick up any book, we are enlightened to something you did not know before.

And that experience changes us.

We should live for daily enlightenment, as Brian Ji is hinting at.

We are largely conditioned creatures and every day that conditioning is changing. We should do that with an open and aware mind.

"Anyone not busy being born is busy dying."
Bob Dylan

What happened in the sixties was great. People were willing to consider things they never had exposure to before. And what has happened since is the natural progress from those seeds.

Western cultural now has Eastern culture integrated into its very DNA. And Eastern culture much the same with Western culture. All this is bringing to fruition a simple concept. All people are created equal and endowed with the same rights. We are just learning to understand and honor that.

Without the sixties there would me no ecology movement and no identification of the harm being done to this planet. The sixties birthed the voice of ecology, and as well, a new voice for equality that has only grown.

So long as you and I function here we are learning creatures and just as suspect to learning new prejudices or hardening old ones as to learning new facts and news ideas.

New learning of course rewrites the brain, and of course requires letting go of out-of-date prejudices.

Just as we can learn new things we can also harden old prejudices. Here, with mind, in Maya, everything changes.

So we should re - examine your beliefs regularly, to understand them from a deeper perspective as you grow.

An enlightened being is living in the continuous environment of enlightenment. It is not a static condition. That is a misunderstanding.

Rather than confirm your belief in RSSB, Brian's post does the opposite, encouraging your and I to keep an open mind, willing to try even those things we may have thought were wrong, in order to learn and make progress.

His post raises the question, "What progress did you and I make today?"

That is confirmed by what is new, not what is old.

[Spence Tepper]

Faith, belief and worship are forms of Internal integration with the deeper parts of ourselves. They don't require proof or any details. Those are actually distractions.

Where there is knowledge, there is no need of belief or faith.

To believe in God or Spirit does not require knowledge. It is belief, after all not knowledge.

Practice of submission within, worship within, undistracted, pure, singular, undisturbed, is the practice of love for the greater part of ourselves we cannot see.

That should always start out as indistinct. We don't know. We pray in faith. We pray naked of notions, so that we can receive.

Knowledge is not required. To believe is not the same as to know.

I don't know. I believe. And in full belief, full submission, full worship, to give voice to the deeper dispair and longing of my heart, which only the greater love and power within can resolve. Belief and faith it is there. Do I believe and do I have faith?! Practice is the only real proof of my sincerity.

But we need not claim to know. It's not necessary.

Knowledge comes in its own time.

[Ron E.]

[“The surprise that brought this blog post to life was me saying in a comment that I agreed with what another commenter had said about theistic religions being more satisfying. I wrote:
You might be surprised to hear this, but I also agree that theistic religions tend to be more satisfy-ing than non-theistic faiths like Buddhism.”]

I guess for satisfying you could say happier, and there are a number of surveys on believers and non-believers that point to findings that believers are happier. It is thought that social support and a sense of identity by belonging to a close-knit church could be the reason. Also, a relationship with God can give a sense of comfort, self-esteem and meaning.

All this may well be true and probably also would apply for people who worship a Sun God or Spirit of the Volcano – as long as it is reinforced by a cohesive, supportive community. For many though, myself included, unavoidably prefer to live with the reality of life governed by observable natural laws rather than beliefs in supernatural ones.

A good naturalist is always open to examining new evidence that pertains to the ever-evolving natural world. This would include theories of the origins, not only of life on earth, but of the universe. So far though, new discoveries have fallen into the realms of natural science.

And: - [“There isn't a single stable unchanging "me" or "you" or "them" anywhere to be found. We all contain multitudes.”]
This is expected as the ‘me’, being comprised of life’s experiences, is a process that is constantly dropping and amassing fresh information. So far though, for me, this process has not included anything not of the natural order of things.

[Appreciative Reader]

Heh yes, like Emerson put it, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds! Absolutely, one should be open to changing one’s mind and one’s opinion. Kind of one of the fundamental requisites of a scientific worldview. So, cool.

-------

But of course, while a meta discussion around changing one’s mind vis-à-vis staying stuck in some established thought pattern is an interesting enough subject, but as far as yesterday’s discussion, perhaps the more focused question might be to look at the opinions actually presented there, and to see if they hold up --- looking at the opinions themselves, and regardless of whether those opinions are something that one happened to stumble into, or whether they’re what one’s believed for months and years, or whether they agree with what one generally tends to think.

Towards that end, I’d presented a critique in my comment yesterday. This one: https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2022/02/a-guided-meditation-by-sam-harris-about-the-open-sky-of-consciousness.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e20278806acbba200d#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e20278806acbba200d . Any thoughts?

-------

Finally, some general thoughts that your post triggered. I don’t necessarily have answers, but a discussion around them may be interesting.

(1) How important/necessary is truth value to belief, generally speaking? Is it meaningful to have effects-based decisions on whether a belief is “good”, that is independent of looking at whether a belief is “correct”, that is, independent of addressing the truth value?

(2) The answer to the above is, quite obviously, that it depends. That is, it is a case-by-case thing. But, that understood, might one generalize? Which is it likely to be, generally speaking, and leaving aside outliers? Is the answer skewed towards either “Yes” or “No” --- and, if so, then towards which side --- or does it hover somewhere in the middle?

(3) Is it even possible to believe in something to order at all, without addressing the truth value first? (Religions --- including, very conspicuously, the RCC --- have addressed this question at great length actually. They answer with an emphatic “Yes”, and go to great lengths to discuss how. But of course, they would, wouldn’t they?) If I offered to pay you a million dollars if only you’d believe me to be the latest, and true, One-True-Prophet of God, for this present age, then could you even do that, even if you wanted to, and even if your interests were served by doing that? Or is putting up a pretence the best that you, or anyone else, might achieve, even if you wanted to and tried your very best?

(You do answer the last question, #3, in your own comment, and as it applies to you personally. Again, one answer would be that it's a case-to-case thing. But again, might one generalize? Where would a generalized answer lie, towards one side --- if so which one --- or somewhere in the middle?)

[um]

@ Spence

It is my personal experience that I have not changed in all the years I can remember my past.

I have witnessed many a thing, understood many a thing, but change ... no.

It is not possible as a born crow cannot die as a nightengale.so humans cannot die other than the were born..

Yes, culture changes, the clothes of the emperor, but being born, living and dieing remains the same, like suffering, ilness, killing and be killed. The means may change fut that is no change.

The potter, have made a vase on the wheel as my good friend did, can start over if he is not pleased, but the lump of clay on his turning wheel remained what it was.

In your eyes it might seem a change that humans kill one another now with sophisticated weapons, in stead of with their bare hands, stone, swords, canons etc but to me killing remains killing.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um;
You wrote:
"The potter, have made a vase on the wheel as my good friend did, can start over if he is not pleased, but the lump of clay on his turning wheel remained what it was."

The Potter shapes us, beating from the outside, raising us up from within. It is a continual process.
From a very distant level, we are all spirit. But at our level, the pot raised is a thing of beauty, of purpose, though it is empty. The purpose, who can say?

But from this level, we have our journey.

So long as we are here in this flesh, we have work to do, a destination. And that journey changes us.

We are clay, shaped, and then, after being shaped by the potter, burned in the fires of this life and all the others, refined. All that is necessary to have any utility as a human being at all. This is what makes human beings out of clay. Burned, like Gold or Silver, until there is nothing left of what we called ourselves, but only the true essence of what we are.

So, to say we are static is never so. God can say that about Himself. Not you nor I. It is just about the level to which we are aware of how we are actually changing, often without our awareness or permission.

But as for enlightenment, that is a purposeful effort. Not to say we enlighten ourselves, but we participate with nature, in concert with nature, looking in faith towards the inner light, and in full awareness, full submission, and the natural direction of our lives.

[um]

@ Spence
>>So long as we are here in this flesh, we have work to do, a destination. And that journey changes us.<<

What destination?
People create themselves a carrot on a stick to walk after or others do it.

Spence all that is alive is programmed to stay alive, and that is what all creatures do ... the crow does it and I do it.

We humans have cultured our natural habitat, but underneath it all, we are just like all living creatures, and act as such. ... we try to survive..

Why it all is as it is I do not know and I do not care to know.

Those brothers and sisters that live in seclusion apart from us without that advanced culture, do the same as we do or we do what they do. They eat what they can find around them. We have only complicated that to the level of earning money, cuisines en books about it ... that is all nonsense, however intriguing, we have only complicated what is simple to the extent that we are no longer able to live without that complication.

He said to me:
Live a natural live in a natural way and a simple life in a simple way.

Those that are at the brink of starting jet another war in Europe, would be nobodies, helpless nobodies on an island.

I would that it was in my power to make it clear that nothing can change, but the waves

[um]

@ Spence

>> But as for enlightenment, that is a purposeful effort. Not to say we enlighten ourselves, but we participate with nature, in concert with nature, looking in faith towards the inner light, and in full awareness, full submission, and the natural direction of our lives.<<

There have been days that I tought I understood these words, that they had meaning .. those day lie behind.

In the beginning when the proces started it was not so easy. That were the days I would be swallowed by the arising thoughts. These days thoughts just arise and it is up to me whether I will attend to them ... it is like an invitation to play with them ... but know, i not even say to them go away, i just don't pay attention and attention hungry as they are they take leave when they discover there is nothing for them to get.

Your words are to me like an art lover that holds an discourse about a painting. His words do not change the painting and more often then not make me walk away even from the painting itself.

Nobody needs to tell me that roses smell so delicious.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um you asked
"What destination?
People create themselves a carrot on a stick to walk after or others do it."

And then you commented
"In the beginning when the proces started it was not so easy. That were the days I would be swallowed by the arising thoughts. These days thoughts just arise and it is up to me whether I will attend to them ... it is like an invitation to play with them ... but know, i not even say to them go away, i just don't pay attention and attention hungry as they are they take leave when they discover there is nothing for them to get."

You see, Um, you didn't start out this way.

You got here from a place you can remember some time ago.

And that is how it will be in the future. You will look back on today and realize there was something you didn't understand today.

Progress is natural.

Now as to being detached from thoughts as you describe. There is observing thoughts dispassionatly, from a place of centered peace in the company of your Master. And then there is the journey with Him through and beyond all that to the first region of no thought at all.. Not you looking at thoughts, nor thoughts parading you... Beyond that. Direct perception.

Regions where there are no impressions at all, beyond even the face of your Master.

An art scholar may give a lecture about a work of art, and place one beloved painting in the context of its time and the life of its painter, and as part of a series.

This opens up the world of the other paintings, the Painter, the time and the context. So now when you look at the painting you see more, understand more of what is right there on the canvas.

And most importantly, to discover what is in all the art that followed.

It never hurts to learn even if we ourselves don't understand the process.

[Spence Tepper]

A Child's Life
A young boy steps into the empty shoes of his father and slides about the house in it, having fun, pretending to be Dad.

His Mom sees this and laughs. She asks "So? So you like it? How does it feel to be in your Dad's shoes?"

The little boy says "It doesn't fit! They are too big for me, Mamma!" and smiling and sliding about for a little longer, steps out and continues to play with his toys.

His toy cars.
His toy trucks.
His toy boat.
His toy heroes.
His toy Monsters.
His toy spaceship.
His toy telescope.
His toy Microscope.
His toy test tubes.
His toy laptop.
His toy stethoscope.

No one says "those aren't real! Those are fake!"

His mom knows each of these reflects something real the boy will be dealing with soon enough.

The fact that he plays tooth these is preparing him. The play is real as it is. It is all real, in its time and purpose.

She asks enthusiastically "How was the fire department today?"

"Did you have any adventures in Space today?"

[um]

@ Spence

When I woke up in the cinema, being lost in something outside myself , forgeting even that i existed, i was the same that entered to cinema.

People that are lost in the movie are lost in the ever changing drama on the screen.

What art experts have to say, is as looking at the screen, it is artificial, you see they are like the scribes, the priests, the theologians.

When Christ spoke to the people, he had no need of theologians of those day to explain what he had to say nor did the people that happen to listen to him stand in need of them.

These people that make others believe that they can explain what needs not to be explained are called by Christs "thieves" as they steel the teachings of another person.

AND ... what is even worse ... they make people first believe that they do not understand what was said and that they are there to help them.
,
Priest, have NOTHING to share of themselves with others, nor have art commentators.

These people are like the dealers that buy the crops of the farmers for very low prices and sell them on the market of life for much money ... they live as parasites on the labor of others

[um]

@ Spence

How pathetic are the people that tell others what painters and other artists, have in mind, what their intentions were when they created their art

The representation industries

These priests, these commentators, make themselves and others believe that their praise, their attribution, is the real intrinsic value of what an other person did, said etc, if there is any intrinsic value at all.

The "value" of paintings is "sold" to the public by galleries etc etc, people that live on the work of others ... talkers.

The American flag, is a piece of cloth and the Dollar a green piece of paper, the values is attributed, is being lost in the movie, taking it to be real

[777]

Brain said :
My problem is that while I can occasionally pretend that I believe in a personal divine being, I really don't, so my occasional half-hearted attempts at embracing theism don't get me very far.

Try the truth
which is that You are The Divine Almighty Timeless Creator
although in amnesia, . . self inflicted

That might do it

777

Instead of Multitudes or We are One, . . be clear this way and say what it is

[um]

@ 777

When the Hebrew prophets received message in inner experiences that there was a god, that that god had chosen them as his favorites and as a token he gave them among other things a piece of land, these Hebrews had massive reasons to believe what they heard as they were in need for land where they could settle.

But just ask you the question what reason would other people have to believe what was told by these prophets.....none at all!!

And that god, to be portraited as the god of ALL humans failed to inform the res of the world about his plans

So what reason would anybody have to believe what you have to say based upon your experiences??

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"How pathetic are the people that tell others what painters and other artists, have in mind, what their intentions were when they created their art"

Art Appreciation opens up other perspectives. Judging in ignorance is common, but people who do that miss may things, misunderstand many things, and attribute false meaning to many things.

Having different perspectives helps us understand more of what we are seeing and hearing. The benefit of good teachers cannot be measured. To see and hear more changes the world.

The difficulty there is the small effort to put aside our own thinking in order to learn. But that is just an exercise in maintaining an open and objective mind.

And a willingness to be wrong. Just as Brian Ji writes.

It's good for you, and helps prevent dismissing others ' as wrong when you simply may not understand.

"Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said. 'One can't believe impossible things.'

" I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!"
Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Take a trip into Wonderland, Um, step into someone else's view.

[777]

@UM

Be 5 seconds without thouthgts and U know it all

Isn't asked 4tomuch, . . isn't

777

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"When the Hebrew prophets received message in inner experiences that there was a god, that that god had chosen them as his favorites and as a token he gave them among other things a piece of land, these Hebrews had massive reasons to believe what they heard as they were in need for land where they could settle."

Those are allegorical stories. The holy mountain of Jerusalem is the new Jerusalem, not the old. It is within, in spirit.

" See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy."
Isaiah 65: 17-19

" The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord."
Isaiah 65:25

Jesus also confirms that the worship God wants us within,

" 19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

John 4:19-24

Your understanding, Um, of Jewish Teachings is only from one perspective, yet you claim it is Judaism.

This is the problem of ethnocentrism, insisting that our understanding is perfect and complete.

But we are learning all the time, and that also means unlearning old thinking as information raises our understanding.

You cannot blame God for people's different levels of ignorance not their different understand.

But each of us had a personal duty to raise our consciousness,, raise our awareness. And learning is part and parcel of that.

[um]

@ Spence

Born a crow, I was soon to learn that crows were birds. Then I was thought that there are good and bad birds. Loyal to my teachers, I did my best to become what they tald me were good birds and that I could become one of these if I only would xxx, vvv, sss, etc etc I tried and tried and failed I never became a good bird, a nightingale, the singer let alone the eagle, the roamer. Much i did to find out what was wrong, inside and outside and failed to find the cause. Tired I gave up, letting go, accepting my fate and one day I saw myself in the mirror and saw a crow.

Now I no longer care about nightingales, eagles nor even becoming a "good" crow and rest my case.

and what I wrote about the Hebrews is not about the Hebrews at all ...it is a finger pointing at the moon. If you go on looking at the finger you do not see the moon.

[um]

@ 777

If you tell me how you got to this point and what was the outcome from what you did and how it resulted in your happiness, you will find me a listener, finding pleasure in your compagny and a good story.

But that is all.

It does not arise in me a desire to have what you have, to experience what you experience.

Nor do I question what you tell me.

It is all yours and I will not touch it. It is not a source of inspiration for me. For me it is an empty glass and serves no purpose.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"Much i did to find out what was wrong, inside and outside and failed to find the cause. Tired I gave up, letting go, accepting my fate and one day I saw myself in the mirror and saw a crow."

You had to go through all that, Um. But you are even more than that.

The Catterpiller you see in the mirror has a completely different destiny.

And your own effort is part of that.

So long as time ticks by, and we see only from one point in time and space, we are on a journey. We can walk along, doing our part.

As Sawan Singh wrote, it is within our power to accelerate or delay the process. We do have a role to play and a responsibility.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"For me it is an empty glass and serves no purpose."

Become the empty glass, Um. That's where it all begins.

It begins when you run out of ideas.
It begins when you have nothing left to give.
It begins when you push beyond your own limits just a little bit.
It begins when you open the shade just a tiny bit.
It begins when to see all the accumulated dust, in horror.
And all the damage you have done.
That's where it begins. Then feet start moving all on their own.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
From above
"21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. "
John 4:21-23

Jesus tells a woman worshipping a false God that one day she will worship the real God within. The chosen aren't limited to those of any religion, but to anyone sincerely seeking God. Doesn't matter what their beliefs are. And He is also saying that those who insist that worshipping God in one religion, temple or place is false, even when some Jews are making that claim.

This, what Christ is teaching, is a universal teaching for all humanity, about a reality within, not limited to any religion.

[umami]

Spence,

um's Master is your Master, and I have an idea! Go within and talk to your Master. Tell Him you're dissatisfied with um's progress, and advise Him on how He could manage it better!

[um]

@ Umami

Umami, Umami ... you are funny. ... and clever too.

[um]

@ Spence and 777

If I would be thirsty, I would find myself something to drink.

If you people would be nearby and I had the idea you could be of help, I wouild not hesitate to ask you people, to help me find something to drink.

But friends I am not thirsty.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Umami
You wrote
"Tell Him you're dissatisfied with um's progress, and advise Him on how He could manage it better!"

Is that where your advice for me comes from?

As for anyone's progress we are all at different places hence our different perspectives.

And as to progress, so long as there is breath and life and each has our own ignorance, there is the opportunity to take our next step.

Do you disagree?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"If you people would be nearby and I had the idea you could be of help, I wouild not hesitate to ask you people, to help me find something to drink."

If someone says "here is what I see" describing the path, that isn't advice or help. It is just commentary from their view, just as you have shared your views.

Making such comments personal is a misunderstanding.

We are all in different places and have different views. But I believe it is different views of the same path.

Your view is just as valid as mine and implies nothing else.

Where we disagree is about philosophy. Not a personal issue at all.

I believe we were meant for personal growth and development. That's how it looks from my place.

You believe something else, though I would not presume to represent that. You are presenting it perfectly.

[Spence Tepper]

Can we get to a place where we can say "I have nothing to learn and no progress is possible for me"?

I don't believe that is true, here.

One can say they have been raised into the lap of God. And feel complete.
That I might believe.

But to say therefore that being with God, they are now perfect and complete, and there is no work for them here, nothing to learn, no prejudice to let go of, as they are still here that I would not believe.

If someone were to say God gave them all knowledge and wisdom, I might believe it. But if they said they can judge their own heart as pure and clean, that I would not believe.

"Who sums his fellows up at sight
Brings wonders to their eyes.
But he who sums himself aright
Alone is truly wise.

" Who would grind others into dust
Great strength and power will need
But he who conquers his own lust
Performs the greater deed"
Tao of LeoTse

[um]

@ Spence

I did not write about a path, or a view about such a path, let alone the same path.
It might be so in your understanding, that is alright.

Again if I would be thirsty, and you could be of help, I might ask you.

You see, this statement doesn''t speak of you or any kind of relationship or interaction between us it speaks of me, not being thirsty, it is a communication to you about a state of mind. and it doesn't matter how you react or interpret that communication.

If my cup needs not to be filled for whatever reason you might go on pouring tea in it but that is for you to ask yourself what you are doing.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"I did not write about a path, or a view about such a path, let alone the same path."

I did write about a path. The path we are all on. Destination is the same, but we start from different places. Our own ignorance defines where we need to go for our own progress.
But in ignorance we have no idea that we need to do anything.

You wrote
"Again if I would be thirsty, and you could be of help, I might ask you."

And I wrote that only when we see the damage we have done do we thirst for forgiveness, the strength to do what is right, and the companionship of a good friend to help us move forward.

Our progress begins when we view our debt. But viewing that is also a stage of progress. Then we move. Our feet move all on their own. We can't remain static anymore.

Blessed are those who mourn.

You wrote
"it speaks of me, not being thirsty,"

Every day we need living water and living bread. We are thirsty, if we can see it.

Who can drink water when they are asleep? They must wake up. And that can be unpleasant. The Clam hates the grain of sand placed within it. But no pearl came without it.

You wrote
"If my cup needs not to be filled for whatever reason you might go on pouring tea in it but that is for you to ask yourself what you are doing."

The fountain flows freely of itself.

[um]

@ Spence

Your words are only meaning full for you ... you are speaking to yourself.

[umami]

"And as to progress, so long as there is breath and life and each has our own ignorance, there is the opportunity to take our next step."

Spence,

Here's my view. um's Master is your Master is my Master and is others' here too. I've known satsangis who strayed stunningly far from the vows after initiation, and yet Master, presumably with complete foreknowledge, saw fit to accept them. That's good enough for me. I figure Master knew what he was doing. Who am I to judge? Who am I to preach? Who am I to shame? It's between Master and disciple one to one. It isn't for me to assess anyone's progress and tell them they're doing it wrong. I value every voice here. Even the meanest ones surprise me at times with insight or wit. I've come to realize that every contributor in one respect or another is ahead of me and has something to teach. I'd happily give you three paise and a coconut, but from me the gesture would be worthless.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
"Your words are only meaning full for you ... you are speaking to yourself."

Pot calling out to kettle

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Umami
"Here's my view. um's Master is your Master is my Master and is others' here too."

Please consider that we, at best, on a good day, with God's help, may judge ourselves rightly. And that would require full focus on our own experience and issues, and full sensitivity to those around us.

Occasionally we do have to judge others by necessity. But that is filled with human error.

So that is my philosophy. You can try to judge me as a Satsangi, but it would be easier just to judge how you feel about my philosophy and I welcome your critique of that.

I think we are all works in progress.

And everyone has feet of clay.

IMHO... ;)

[um]

@ Spence

Hahaha ... I am aware that I have no inner experiences. You tell us you have and there is no reason for me not to believe you on your word.

So you speak from a standpoint that is not mine.

I have tried to communicate this simple fact and I have never suggested to anybody to come and stand next to me ... hahahaha ....there is not much room to share.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"... I am aware that I have no inner experiences. You tell us you have and there is no reason for me not to believe you on your word.

" So you speak from a standpoint that is not mine.

"I have tried to communicate this simple fact and I have never suggested to anybody to come and stand next to me ... hahahaha ....there is not much room to share."

Dear Um
This isn't about you or I, but our beliefs.

Whatever experiences I have had made me humble in the sense that the creation is much bigger than this tiny brain can comprehend, and that we can act here, in this life, to benefit ourselves by effort, practice and observation.

There are Benefits to effort that don't require faith, and there are other long term Benefits that do.

In all instances we should be running the race to our last breath to win.

In this I'm actually quite bold. Humble to how hard we all must work, if only out of respect, but in truth more than that. Our own progress. I'm Confident and bold about that.

Everyone who draws breath has a job to do here.

[um]

@ Spence

I do not have such experiences so whatever you say are just meaningless words ... just do not know what you are talking about.

Neither do I know what it is to be a women, let alone give birth to a child, or what it is to have an OBD experience, astral travel, NDE or the many experiences Manjit speaks about.

I also tried to communicate, that I am fine with others having these experiences and no need to have these experiences to live my life.

Your experiences are for you to deal with and nobody else.

[um]

@ Spence

>> In all instances we should be running the race to our last breath to win<<

On a personal level ... yes, you have that desire to win. You also would have it without your experiences. That desire binds you to others and ... [here I would like to wradd something else, but as it might be read and understood as unkind and unpolite, I will refrain from it]

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"That desire binds you to others and... [here I would like to wradd something else, but as it might be read and understood as unkind and unpolite, I will refrain from it]"

I had written
"In all instances we should be running the race to our last breath to win."

We should put forth the same effort for anything truly important.

What do you love more than yourself? Enough to extend our effort, to step into an uncomfortable place, new, and filled with the error that comes from being new to something?

So many people harbor such love for things, people, accomplishments and places, position and possessions.

Why harbor less love for more important things?

Or have we just given up, and call that detached?

It is that love for something greater than ourselves I'm referring to. A love that persists until our last breath. A love we honor and never become complacent about, or take for granted.

A love so great we are happy to be put to public shame, rejected for loving what others consider blasphemous or crazy.

Really, in love, nothing else exists. A love that is as much longing, and the pain of separation that drives us on.

That love we should always go full throttle to pursue.

Then we are happy running the race. We are happy to put ourselves through the ringer for that love.

[um]

@ Spence

I never use the word "love" beside those linguistic occasions it has to be used.

[um]

@ Spence

An again and again i have to write .......after all,. the mind needs a lot of hammering:

The pull must come from within
and ...
if it is not there, it is just not there
and ...
there is nothing I can do about it.

In order to be able to "eat", two conditions have to be fulfilled:
[1] there is to be food on the table
[2] i have to have hunger
and ...
These conditions are in nobodies hands, they are "given"
So ...If both or even just one of these conditions is not fulfilled, there is no eating.

Neither the pull was there nor the two conditions.
This was true for all spheres of life.

You Spence, you cannot be a winner, show of your wealth and accomplishments as does 777 too, without there being spiritual and worldly "loosers" ..."no-goods".

If I might befall me unexpectedly in the short time that is left to me, I would certainly keep mum, in order to prevent others to feel uneasy.

You see it was shown to me without words by an lady out of the close circle around huzur that stayed for a couple of days in our house. She had wealth and abundance in every sphere of life. She behaved as the living example and embodiment of meekness and humbleness .... there are no words to describe the pleasure to be in her presence.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"You Spence, you cannot be a winner, show of your wealth and accomplishments as does 777 too, without there being spiritual and worldly "loosers" ..."no-goods"."

It's interesting you wrote of winners and losers. I guess that was in response to my comment about winning the race.

But I did a poor job of explaining that the race is not against anyone else. It is simply, moment by moment, to do your best. To stay focused on the goal, to be in the Presence of God moment by moment by simply avoiding distraction from that Presence, to building that atmosphere where we give all things to Him.

There are no losers when every moment is a fresh opportunity to be closer to Master.

And of course it is just one's own relationship to the Lord. One has no interest lose in judging anyone else. That's a distraction.

You wrote
"If I might befall me unexpectedly in the short time that is left to me, I would certainly keep mum, in order to prevent others to feel uneasy."

Um, I don't believe anyone can know how they will react when the curtain is pulled back. They are part of something larger now. Their individuality has merged with something larger. So how will they act? How should they act? Can we, judging from outside, judge rightly how others are supposed to act in the presence of their Master?

I'm with you that public displays of affection can be uncomfortable for other people to watch. So don't.

They can't be helped among young lovers.

[Spence Tepper]

Um, you have repeatedly suggested there is loss in openly discussing one's own experiences.

But is it possible that there is loss on judging others for doing so?

Consolidate what you have, Um. And avoid distraction.

[um]

@ Spence

What I wrote about repeatedly is the "evil of wealth" not about "wealth".

What is possible or not is up for you to decide.

There is nothing to consolidate.

[umami]

Hey, Spence,

"Please consider that we, at best, on a good day, with God's help, may judge ourselves rightly. And that would require full focus on our own experience and issues, and full sensitivity to those around us."

God thinks I'm very good at that! The best! The best in the West! I sparkle and shine in Glory!

"I think we are all works in progress.
And everyone has feet of clay.
IMHO... ;)"

(feet of clay: "a fundamental flaw or weakness in a person otherwise revered.")

swami umami says: Our weaknesses can be our strengths. Our strengths can be our weaknesses.

[TENDZIN]

A recent comment by Prof Bart Ehrman about interpreting scripture:

"Like all books, the Bible is subject to interpretation, and readers of the Bible have always had to try to understand it since it is not self-interpreting. That is true of all books and all readers of all sacred (and non-sacred) books of every kind– even those who say that there is no interpretation involved, that the meaning is self-evident."

This bears on the standard Sant mat exegesis of the Bible (the New Testament actually, from Mark to Revelations) being properly understood as teaching Gnosticism. That is, while there are some gnostic elements to certain parts of the NT, it doesn't really work to claim that Jesus was a gnostic.
Why? Because of the far greater non-gnostic content of the NT.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Tendzin
It would be hard to pigeonhole Christ.
Evangelism and The Friends (Quakers) have influence from Gnosticism, and acknowledge the individual experience and expression of Spirit. Evangelicals celebrate it.

While the book of Thomas was left out of the Canonical Gospels, it was and is still loved and revered by many today.

The Bible is filled with metaphor and allegory, so that personal interpretation is hard coded into it.

And traditional interpretations also must ignore a great deal in the Bible in order to fit their pre-existing theology.

Here is Paul, in two places, referring to Reincarnation.

In this first passage Paul speaks about those devoted in faith without any direct experience of Christ, after they die and leave Earth, they still earn a place in heaven because of their faith in and longing for God.

"13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return.

16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them."
Hebrews 11: 13-16

Paul says directly these people could have returned here, to Earth, if that is where their attention had been focused on when they died.

And here Paul, in explaining the Resurrection of Christ and indeed of everyone, explains it is natural for God to give the appropriate body to the appropriate soul once anyone dies. The seeds we plant come to life after we die.

So, naturally, since Reincarnation is the way of all things, planting a seed of spirit in our natural life leads to a spiritual body in the next... Resurrection is one instance of Reincarnation. The dead are raised all the time.

"35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another."
2 Corinthians 15:35-39

[TENDZIN]

@ Spence

The thing is, not all books of the Bible are the same. That's why many were left out of the NT canon.

There are some who claim Thomas’ view of Jesus is reliable, while the canonical Gospels contain myths and legends. But that frankly strikes me as a conspiracy theory, and the people who are most for the GOT authenticity are those with enmity toward traditional Christianity. Also, it would mean that all the canonical gospels have Jesus completely and deliberately wrong and that the true gnostic Jesus was culled from public view.

While there is much we don't know about Jesus' world (far more than most Christians realize in fact), some things are more likely than others. For one thing, earlier gospels are invariably more authentic than later written Gospels. Also, while there's doubt about who wrote each of the Gospels, GOT was written around AD 150, so there's no chance that Thomas wrote it.

The apocalyptic Jesus and the gnostic Jesus can't be the same person. The weight of scholarly research indicates that our best guess is that the apocalyptic Jesus of the canonical NT is most likely the Jesus that actually existed in history.

Sant mat has long taught that Jesus was a kind of shabd Master, who had picked up Eastern gnostic lore in India and who taught his disciples to meditate, eg. make your eye single and your body will be filled with light. the favorite Jesus quote of Sant mat gurus. But their exegesis isn't supported by actual Biblical scholars.

At this, one might suppose that Biblical scholars are close-minded prejudicial pedants who are suppressing the truth. That wouldn't be true. There are plenty of Biblical scholars who for the past couple hundred years have poked holes in the NT narrative and have thrown much of what was previously orthodox into doubt. But it would simply be bad history to suppose that Jesus was a gnostic or anything like a gnostic. It would be like saying that the Bhagavad Gita was a recording of an actual conversation Krsna had with Arjuna, or that the historical Buddha had a hand in the Lotus Sutra.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Tendzin
You wrote
"GOT was written around AD 150, so there's no chance that Thomas wrote it."

All of the authors of the NT were attributed after the fact. These were not signed documents. These were oral tradition that became written tradition. So you can have a later date or an earlier date, but which is really most accurate?

I think all the gospels were and are sincere attempts.

But the only validity they have is in our hearts as we read them.

The Bible is a poetic work, filled with metaphor, and allegory. It is only a living book when and how it resonates with each of us. That means we can each get a different interpretation. But the only one that matters is ours.

So each of us re-writes the Bible in our hearts. And that is where we witness the Word of God, within.

"They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea."
Isaiah 11:9

"The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
Jeremiah 31:32-34

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Swami Umami
You wrote
"swami umami says: Our weaknesses can be our strengths. Our strengths can be our weaknesses."

Yes. If our weaknesses humble us and bring us to submit to the wisdom within, they are truly great strengths.

And if our strengths give us pride, that shuts the door to the inner nectar... That's s weakness.

Very wise words Swami Ji!

"People who don't fit in very well in this world fit into Sant Mat very well"
Maharaj Charan Singh Ji