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January 20, 2022


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>> Likewise, if you later decide that the spiritual teacher isn't worth following any more, what gives you the ability to walk away from the person is your trust in yourself that now this is the right thing to do.<<

There are more strategies to take such an decision that are not related to anything outside one selves and these can me more comforting, more strengthening the trust towards oneself and even others.

Seen from the position of the person that walks away, the whole endeavor in relation to a teaching and teacher started out IN a person. To end or close it off properly, it has to stop there where it started ... the initiative of a person.

Worth is only an attribute to be used between people of the same level. No student in whatever field of human activity is able to appreciate the level ofd an teacher. They have only at thewir disposition the HEARSAY, the PR of others, and his own gut feelings.

Apart from it all these feelings, like respect, love etc are GIFTS and yes these gifts are based upon a selective mental conditioning from him that gives it it can enever we an objective qualificqtion of the persons ability to whom it is given. You love your partner and in your eyes it was the best choice to be made. This decision speaks of YOU not of your partner. You give her your love, let we hope you do :-) .she does not deserves it .

It is clear that seen from the story of the game played in sant mat things can be seen and explained differently as who makes the decisions to do what.

It is my understanding in life that if one walks away just for personal reasons and without looking outside, are in the long run more comforting,and does not leave any scars.

Think of how Viktor Frankl managed to to survive the concentration Camps

And ....

I just was in a supermarket and there i saw an interaction between a mother and her little child of som 3 or 4 years. She must have corrected her child before but when i passed by I heard her say: " If you do it again you make mommy angry"

You people say: as the twig is bent the tree is inclined
we say: whatever you learn being young, you will do when older.

The times I have heard this formula used in the interaction of people and did use it my self is endless.

It is common practice and it seems also to be the reality of the outside world as being causal for what we think and feel and ... react.

It makes those who use it in fact slaves of the outer world, and also vulnerable to whatever and whoever passes by.

It is the complete focusing on the allergens and not thinking for a moment about the personal sensitivity ....

People like viktor Frankl show that the world can be perceived in an another less harmfull way.

Hi Brian Ji
You wrote:
"Like, trust yourself and others, but not completely. "

We all trust, as the final standard, our own judgement. Even when we are deciding to trust someone else, it falls to our judgment.

And judgement is a learning process. It can be refined. Since we are biological bags of chemicals, even our judgment changes without our permission over time.

It may become very great, but inevitably, with the decay of the body, it will also decay.

However, we can develop rules, from experience, to help guide us.

So, we are going to trust, because we must make decisions and act in order to survive in this world in a responsible way.

But if we are good scientists, we understand that this is a very gooey process, and should be constant in our search for new perspectives, new views, alternative views, contradictory views, and confirmatory views, to grow our perspective just a tiny bit from where we are today. To raise our consciousness.

When you raise consciousness, you have a deeper and broader and higher understanding. All learning, if we are learning truthful information, is a form of raising consciousness. And it is based on the belief in continuous learning, continuous development and growth.

For continuous growth to work, being fixed to a single opinion or view is like a living creature being chained to a rock..It is a restriction, and no help at all to lock oneself to a fixed point of view.

To extend the analogy, if a 5-year-old trusts his parents and kindergarten teacher, he's only doing so because he trusts himself?

I'd say rather that we give trust to authority figures and institutions because we feel it's in our interest to trust them. This is similar to trusting our own judgment, but it's not the same thing.

Let's apply this to Sant Mat gurus. Many of us did a good bit of research into the guru marketplace before we decided to take initiation from a Sant mat guru. No doubt we relied on our feelings or intuition in choosing a Guru we felt we could trust. That is, how the vibe we felt about the Guru's personality. This is a purely personal and subjective judgment. For example, some people are completely taken with Charan Singh but feel no similar devotion for Gurinder Singh or the Kirpal line gurus.

But then there are other factors for choosing a Sant mat guru and Sant mat. A big one for many initiates was the high ethics of Sant mat -- no charging money for spiritual goods, non-violent diet, and a guru who lived off his own earnings (even if true in the most marginally valid way). And we knew about the Guru's life and were duly impressed by Charan's humility or Kirpal's dedication.

As to the Sant mat path itself, many of us intuited that it just made sense. Karma, reincarnation, divine love, no church services or rituals, meditation, higher planes. The menu of spiritual goods sounded right, even if we were relying on faith that Bhanwar Guphta and Sach Khand existed.

Then there's surrender to the Guru, which is a core principle of Sant mat. Or at least it used to be, as having viewed several of Gurinder's recent videos it's not clear to me that he believes in this principle anymore. Or even in the Sant Mat path as laid down in the RSSB lit by past masters in his line, as Gurinder states in the most recent video that none of the stuff we read about experiencing higher planes is at all accurate. But I digress. The point about surrendering to the Guru is we did it because of how it made us feel. Guru bhakti proved itself as a concept that not only facilitated deep meditation but also made our lives better in many ways.

To simply: devotion implies surrender, and love, and sacrifice. These are core traits of human social progress from the family unit to national and world harmony.

And this points to the core positive principle of religion: a surrender to something greater than ourselves, to love and serve others.

Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the Gods made for fun.

Alan Watts

Trust yourself and others, but not Gurinder Singh Dhillion & Radha Soami Cult

As so many others on here have had the Courage to speak out they're truth about Goon Gurinder Singh Dhillion, Trust was they're biggest mistake in life which left them never to be able to trust nobody fully ever again.

To put your trust as to say in a bent baba who lives of the earings of others (seva contributed money) and goes through life hiding and lying completely is never to be trusted in the first place.

But life is full of lessons and some we learn the hard way.

Take Gurinders latest show of public power ridden ego, rubbing shoulders and taking pictures with the Punjab CM and with the fiasco the minister is facing now about the Millions found at his personal family members home.

Paints a very realistic picture of Gurinder Singh Dhillions friends with benefits life.

Backfired badly on the Bent baba of beas Gurinders true intentions and mafia style vip club members only lifestyle of corruption and greed is an open book for all of us to see now.

Not to be trusted, Never to be listened too

But watch the Gurinder show and witness with your own eyes the actions of this goon in the drama which unfolds in front of your very eyes everyday.

Like Gurinder loves saying " For all you know I could be the biggest fraud in the world"

Now what Fool would Trust this Fool

Seeing is Believing this Fools (actions)

How exactly is faith in an RS Guru really different from Alan Watt's conception of Buddhism?

If we accept the Master is always with us as the Shabd, how are we at all different from a Christian who believes the spiritual form of Jesus is looking out for them?

Say we believe in the Dharmakaya, in the harmonious interconnectedness of all life. How is that any different from believing in God? The Catholic encyclopedia defines God as "The world is essentially dependent on God, and this dependence implies (1) that God is the Creator of the world — the producer of its whole substance; and (2) that its continuance in being at every moment is due to His sustaining power." OK, creator part aside, how is this different from Buddhism or Taoism? Is the Creator aspect of a Christian God really matter in any way to belief in some kind of knowing power that holds life together?

@ Tendzin

How do we humans know about what we call the divine?
That is the question.

Start thinking about humans.
What ever humans have created was related to this or that concrete need.
Most of the time people were and are able to find an proper answer and solution.
In other cases they turned to people that had transcendent knowledge.
THEY, those with the inner experiences, the sjamans, the brucho's, the medicin me of the different tribes came with an alternative view about the world.
They came up with other powers than those of their fellow human beings were aware of.

Several times I gave the example of the tribe of the Hebrews in search for a territory to live in. Their sjamans abraham, Mozes etc had visions about a god that declared his tribe was their gods favorite and for eternity a piece of land was given to them. I also had drawn the readers attention to the fact that these experiences were always unique. I cannot stress enough what it means that at those times and later, if there was an god for ALL humans, that god failed to inform the other tribes and advised them to heed his commands. So up to this very day the whole existence of the state of Israel, the fate of the Palestinians is based on ...O N E ....sjaman's inner experience that offered a solution for a geopolitical problem of his tribe thousands of years ago.

Delf into the great SJAMANS of the world literature ... their inner experiences were always related to solving problems they could not solve with their normal [mental] tools.

The divine is a toolbox of transcendental solutions for human problems, small and great, for which they cannot find another solution.

Nobody that can expect to solve his human needs on his own and achieve what he has in mind will turn to the divine.

So in the end there are two groups ... the sjamans, humans that have to deal with inner experiences that appear before them out of the blue and those that experience mysery for which the have no solution.

Both groups are more or less FORCED to contact one another.
and than
There are the consumers .. thos that have heard about the interaction between the two groups.

And ....

Most if not all readers here would never have known about a creator or god or whetever if they had not internalized their culture.
Most would have no interest in these matters at all


There are tons of different religions, tons of disagreement over Who or What is the Divine and what this Divine Power wants from us.

But when it comes down to our basic relationship with the Divine (be it the Tao or Krishna or the Shabd or Sugmad or Radhasoami whatever), we're all pretty much addressing a Nameless Something that for lack of a more precise term we're calling God. The Great Something.

In that light, what Alan Watts preached isn't much different at all from the essence of RS theology.

Note I say the essence, because as we all know theologies can all posit A Great Something but vary widely in what Great Something wants from us.

@ Tenzin

What I tried, and odious failed to do, was to highlight the function of ALL religions, ALL interests in the so called divine.

In short ... without those that have spontaneous inner and UNIQUE experiences and unsolvable individual and social problems, nobody would be interested in the divine, we would simple have no knowledge about it.

You write from within the cultural indoctrination but if you step out of it for a moment. everything so called divine evaporates.

For that step to make one has to accept life as a fate and wonder and ones personal unknowingness.


I may not have read your post closely so I apologize for perhaps speaking past the points you were making.

I'm not sure we really know if anyone actually has transcendent knowledge or being.

I'm not sure if I totally get the point you were making, but I feel that most people have an innate sense of the divine, at least as far as them knowing that they're born into a mysterious world and that they and their loved ones will someday die. In RS concepts: the idea that this world is not our home, and thus there must be a spiritual home for us where we're finally content.

This feeling of existential disconnection can't be wished away by many of us. And so we seek out someone who says they have the answer. It may be Charan Singh or it may be Alan Watts; either way, we're still seekers for the Great Other and Its Harmony, a connection that eludes us in the alternative view that we are lone flesh robots in an aimless universe.

@ Tendzin

If you tell me that you dream, I believe you
If you tell me that you had an OBD experience i believe you
If you have a near death experience I believe you
If you say that you had an inner experience I believe you

History and what ever I have come to learn in life has told me about the existence of these fenomena,. There is no reason for me that these experiences occur.

The question is, what is the source of these experiences.
How are they related to human existence.

Now you can find answers in culture but one can also think for one selves.

I gave that example of Abraham and the inner experience of a so called divine creature instructing him. I also wrote that the experience was related to the need of his people at the time and that the experience was unique and never validated by other experiences. That results in the fact that there has been juste ONE human being that has received that experience. Received, does nol mean there was an giver, it just tells us that he was not the creator unless one wants to label the man as a liar. I also accept that the impression of this kind of experiences is so overwhelming that the one that has these experiences is not able to question the source of the experience as being beyond himself ... just imagine an LSD trip or an nightmare.

What the innate sense of the divine is, I do no longer share that opinion with others. Asking myself questions of "functionality" of things that are around I concluded that it is an tool that is developed in the process of evolution. There are as i wrote 3 groups. Those that have spontaneous experiences that come up with answers, there are those that are in need for a solution, the questioners and finally the majority of people that have heard of these original problems.

So there was abraham, there was his tribe in need for territory and finaly millions uon millions up to this day have heard of that story and gave a a place in their culture etc.

Without abraham there would be no christianity, no islam etc but also no palestenian problem, no holocaust etc etc.

Charan comes with a story, only he and his predecessors have heard about it, they revealed it to the world and there are millions that believe that story as they can use it in their lives for their own reasons....but that same power that is said to be the originator of the tale has not informed the rest of the world.

You see Tendzin .. it is the same as with the story of Abraham. I am sorry that my english is not better

TRUST ! There's a saying in the Sufi tradition; - Trust in Allah - but tie your camel first.

And; - A scorpion wanted to cross a river so he asked a fox to carry him over. "But you'll sting me", said the fox. "I promise I won't and I'll be ever grateful to all foxes." said the scorpion. The fox agreed so the scorpion climbed onto the fox and he swam across. No sooner had they reached the other shore, the scorpion stung the fox. "Ow", cried the fox. "You said you promised not sting me." "What else can I do, stinging is my nature".

Gurinder Singh Caught! Influencing Indian Elections!!

Read it for yourself in this recent news report:

"A circular issued from the Beas headquarters headed by Gurinder Singh Dhillon to all Radha Soami Satsang centres across the nation says the sect has “respect for all political parties as all are equal for us”

OMG! Wait, here's where Gurinder steers his army of followers to vote for one of his cronies!

"Radha Soami sect Beas, which has a sizeable number of followers in Punjab and some other parts of the country, has asked them to vote as they see fit in the assembly elections in five states."

AS THEY SEE FIT! Have you ever seen such shameless voter manipulation?

"People familiar with the matter said a circular issued from the Beas headquarters headed by Gurinder Singh Dhillon to all Radha Soami Satsang centres across the nation says the sect has “respect for all political parties as all are equal for us.”

“To cast vote is the personal right of each individual. So, here we all should exercise our voting right after the application of mind and keeping in view the wellbeing of the entire society,” said the circular."

Gurinder is caught dead to rights telling initiates to vote for whomever they please. IT'S THE END OF DEMOCRACY!!!


More evidence of new Articles revealing about Gurinder Singh Dhillions real motives for that private visit with the Punjab CM behind them closed doors.

Tea and Biscuits anyone?

Voting system manipulation by Gurinder to influence his Sangat to vote for his buddy so he can get some favors in return for his selfish self and the Radha Soami Cult

One of many contradictions and lies he's been telling everyone and exposed again for the world to see his real disgusting n disgraceful character

Brainwashing the Sangat like the Sly Old Fox that he is, but not knowing all of the time, we all know the truth anyway

These are the many evil facets of the Epstein Baba of Beas, Gurinder Singh Dhillion.

Who needs to be investigated and life sentenced.

And Not the poor innocent Nephews either

Dont be Deceived by Deceptive Dhillion as others have and ended up paying a very heavy price



"More evidence." What evidence? You never provide evidence for any of the things you accuse Gurinder of.

What voting system manipulation? What are you referring to, and what evidence do you have?

I just posted a link that tells of a sangat-wide circular by RSSB where Gurinder tells everyone to vote for any part or candidate they choose.

This silly blog bans people who don't bow to the virus politburu, but allows other to post stuff alleging that Gurinder ran a sex ring and murdered his wife - - and calls that "telling truth to power"?


I trusted the beas guru, I spend most of my holidays there, I gave money into the seva boxes, and I even made a new family in dera. I felt I was special and was gonna be saved by the guru gurinder. Yet after I learned that the guru was a greedy man, and taken crores from his nephews; also the way he treated babani, my trust has been shattered to pieces. The rug has been pulled from my feet, after I had fallen for the biggest hypocrite on the planet, gurinder dhillon. Next time I will learn not to trust too easy, to do my research, and trust myself more.

Hi Um
You wrote
"Without abraham there would be no christianity, no islam etc but also no palestenian problem, no holocaust etc etc.

" Charan comes with a story, only he and his predecessors have heard about it, they revealed it to the world and there are millions that believe that story as they can use it in their lives for their own reasons....but that same power that is said to be the originator of the tale has not informed the rest of the world."

This is your opinion, looking at things from the outside.

But Maharaji said something quite different, which is actually pertainant to Brian's post:

" If you try to find the path within yourself, then it is the same path which every seeker has to follow. If you try to find the Lord outside, then naturally you to have an illusion of a path according to your own mental concept. You won't get anywhere at all. It won't take you to your source.....

"No mystic has ever told us to find the Lord anywhere outside."
Spiritual Perspectives volume 1, p. 293

We must look within, and have a level of trust that somewhere in there is Truth. We can get outside advice, outside assistance, we can try to apply good rules of science and objectivity n our journey, but at some point it must come from within and our own attention within. At some point we must attend to whatever is within us, and to find the center of that, from which all our attention is flowing out. And bring that within.

So when you speak about Abraham or Charan or even God, you are looking at this the outside, where God cannot be found.

However, those who look within take the story of Abraham as a mystical allegory of our own journey within. And there God is in abundant evidence.

So you can say God didn't tell people, or you could say he /she/they are speaking to us all the time, but we are paying attention to the outside, and not to the inside, where God actually is. From the mystic perspective he is speaking 24/7 within. We must go there to hear him.

I didn't invent that, Um. Your own Master taught this.

Hi Ron!
A slightly different take, more ancient take..
A scorpion wanted to cross a river and asked a tortoise who lived there to take him across.

The tortoise was wise and accommodating and said, "You are a scorpion, and it is your nature to sting with poison. But if you promise to be temperate, you may climb upon my shell and I will take you."

The scorpion gave his most sincere promise, stepped aboard the tortoise's back, and together they began to cross the river.

But as they reached the half-way point the scorpion could not help himself and stung the tortoise in the shell.

The scorpion himself was most vexed. He said "Look what you made me do! Now we will both drown! I trusted you!"

The tortoise kept swimming, entirely unaffected. After a few moments the scorpion remarked "Aren't you going to die? Aren't we both going to drown?!"

And then the scorpion reiterated once again, "It's not my fault! You knew I would fail. It's my nature to sting! This is your fault!"

As they came up to the oppsite shore the tortoise replied, "Yes, it is your nature to sting.... And mine to forgive."

The scorpion stepped off the back of the tortoise, in a new land he did nothing to reach, having attacked the teacher who brought him there, and cried.

The tortoise turned and swam back to the other side once again.


Beautiful... and profound.

Oh dear ! Scorpions nature is to sting and tortoises do not forgive. But it's nice to live in a make believe world.

@ Spence

Whatever humans do are "games". Games are like movies or a novel. You participate in it and as long as you do it is your reality. When one for this or that reason withdraws one's attention from the book or the screen, one realizes that reading the book had no relity of its own.... it was fiction.

Sant Mat is the shepherds or savior tale. It has been told to humanity by this or that mystic based on his inner experience. All these inner experiences are uniques. If the experience entails a command,in relation to humanity or parts of humanity as in the case of the hebraic prophets that command was just given to that one person and never was a saintly person elsewhere informed about the same. No mystic in the amozon has ever heard about the commands given to the Hebraic prophets.... let alone to the masses.

Most if not all human beings would never have an idea whatsoever about the things discussed here when they were not imprinted by cultural .indoctrination.

Just go back and back to find out the conditions of the natural man.... culture and everything containing it is an invention, like fire and the wheel.

Nobody would know about soul, god etc etc .... skiing became a sport did not start out as a sport. Restaurants dit not started as restaurants, places where one eats for pleasure etc etc...these are all transformations.... religion is also a transformation based upon what humans with spontaneous inner experiences had to say to the matter.

You are the one that is lost in his inner game, your game ... it is not everyone's game
That is allright, it is your reality, and yours alone ... like the dream we have at night

@ Spence

Tales are like the story of the Troyan horse, one can hide anything one wants in it.

But your turn of the story reminds me of the story of the worm often told by your teachers secretary.

The story starts with..... with ..... a worm that had HEARD about an apple in a tree in a far away land. If it had to be the fate of worm-life to find apples in far away lands he would have known it from birth it would have been part of his natural being.

Left alone no worm would have known aboul apples in far away lands.

I never knew about the "purpose of life" as it is told to the children of the different indegenous tribes all over the place. The fact that the tales used by tribes with colonial metality, spread all over the place as their languages, does not make these tales more important than the tales I never HEARD of..

"@Spence ... Beautiful... and profound." (Posted by: Dungeness | January 22, 2022 at 09:55 PM)

..............Yes, that's beautiful, and it's profound. And it's completely totally entirely 100% fiction, no more than wishful thinking. And in fact, mistaking that kind of wishful thinking and fiction for reality is what much of religion is predicated on.

Or, as Ron says:

"Oh dear ! Scorpions nature is to sting and tortoises do not forgive. But it's nice to live in a make believe world." (Posted by: Ron E. | January 23, 2022 at 01:21 AM)


As far as the scorpion story, and Viktor Frankl as well, whom um brought into the discussion a while back, this recalls something I'd read about something Viktor Frankl had written about, and that Stephen Covey worked on further to produce a surprisingly insightful observation (surprising, given how cliche-ridden and generally wholly bereft of any real worth is the world of "management" wisdom, but let me not digress off there):

The scorpion's nature is to sting. The nature of the tortoise (or whatever the creature had been, in the original Panchatantra story this is taken from) is to help drowning creatures, or whatever. But what sets apart the human being is his capacity to understand and reason. The "nature" of man is neither a formulaic unquestioning biting of random flesh, nor a formulaic compulsive facilitating of others' needs even at cost to oneself; no, what sets apart the human being, what is the essential humanity of the human being, is to realize that there are times when it is right to help others, and there are times when it is right not to help others, that there are times when it is right to bite, and times when it is right to refrain from biting. This capacity to make a choice, that is what is the essence of being a human being, as opposed to an unthinking brute. (Regardless of whether said brute is vicious or "kind".)

By the way, Spence, pardon me for butting in unasked into your argument there. Although wrong, but absolutely, I agree, your POV is indeed, as Dungeness says, both beautiful and profound. And what is more, in order to be able make a choice one needs necessarily to be aware of what choices are available to one; and one may not be open to making a kind and self-abnegating choice if thoughts of such beauty and profundity are not at hand; so that, while it is less than human to compulsively be anything, including kind, but yet that still leaves space for such beauty and profundity, not as formulaic inevitability but as the realization that that too is an option. To that extent, absolutely, your analogy is indeed germane to both the discussion and, more broadly, to the human condition or human nature.

Hi Um
You wrote
"Most if not all human beings would never have an idea whatsoever about the things discussed here when they were not imprinted by cultural .indoctrination."

That is true for many things, but not true for the things of nature, including those built into he human body. Those are the same things. Hence, looking within, in any culture, with any level of objectivity, you will find the same things. Mystic writings, though metaphorical and poetic, speak of these very same things, as your Master taught you. So you can find the similarities hidden in those writings or you can go directly to the source of life within yourself. It is a journey, it unfolds in stages of your development, and those stages reflect your ability to withdraw your attention from worldly concerns and simply focus, in a relaxed way, on sitting there in that beatiful and gentle the darkness from where your attention originates. Just getting there is a joyful experience. And that is only the first step.

This outer life is like the setting of a diamond, the ring. But the diamond you must mine within. Without the diamond, what value is the ring, however beatifully sculpted?

Hi Appreciative
You wrote
"there are times when it is right not to help others, that there are times when it is right to bite, and times when it is right to refrain from biting."

Let me suggest that you are viewing this story as an allegory of human civilization.

My suggestion is this is actually a spiritual allegory. All the elements are within. The source of life is always forgiving. We wake up daily regardless of many transgressions. What is within is serves us quietly and with forgiveness. The body carries us through life in spite of our abuses. The stinging nature is our mind, always fearful, defensive, and as a result, ready to sting, and often anxious to do so.

But the wisdom of the body /spirit is that it knows this much better than we do, accommodating largely in silence.

Our true teacher is within and can do nothing but forgive.

When you merge with that, the perspective changes, your heart changes, your life changes.

All the conflicts you encounter and text to are now seen as readily avoidable with minor adjustment. And life becomes an atmosphere for meditation, and a sanctuary to those around you.

Oops, should read " All the conflicts you encounter and react to are now seen as readily avoidable..."

As for choices, we become aware of those as we see things with less emotional reaction, calmly seeing that all things have their cause, all people have their story.

And we see our own selves better, too. This sensitivity raises new options for us, options for peace, kindness and connection we would never have thought of before.

And, in a corrolate way, we see what we cannot become, and learn to accept our life, limited as it must be, so that we adjust our expectations. Lasting happiness and companionship is easily within reach then.

Well, not so much an allegory that points to human civilization, that is, to macro human endeavors, but to all human actions, whether mundane or far-reaching, whether individual or collective (including "civilizational").

The point is, it is the human being that is uniquely equipped to go beyond unthinking reactions, whether that reaction is vicious or kind.

I agree that the idea, that you forward, that forgiveness is an option, is a great reminder to folks who might not otherwise necessarily gravitate towards a kinder option. (A qualification I spelled out in my second comment, addressed to you.) But I suggest that your thinking, and saying, that forgiveness is always and at all times the right option, is blinkered thinking. Kind, but blinkered. Beautiful, but wrong.

The true beauty of being human goes beyond mere formulaic beauty, whether esthetic or moral or whatever; it is in exercising conscious choice that the human being is truly human. (As to which choice one ought to exercise, that's a case to case thing, and in any case a separate discussion. My point was, any kind of compulsive formulaic reaction limits us, and limits us unnecessarily. That, to me, is the true message of that Panchatantra parable --- regardless of what its original author/s might have intended to convey.)

Hi Appreciative
You wrote
"But I suggest that your thinking, and saying, that forgiveness is always and at all times the right option, is blinkered thinking. Kind, but blinkered. Beautiful, but wrong."

I'm sorry but I did not do a good job of explaining things.

As a spiritual allegory, the things within this body, including the force of life, keep us alive despite our abuses. Always forgiving. Perfectly forgiving. Can we grow closer to that true nature in all of us, and become more forgiving, and therefore worthy as heirs to life?

Yes, we have limits and must respect them. Life teaches this also. But perhaps there is room to be more forgiving, if we search for that within ourselves.

We contain both tortoise and scorpion. The mind 's nature is limited, and limited, or fears the unknown, or fills in the unknown with non - existent demons and threats. The tortoise, the reality of life and this body, hardly cares, continuing to serve us, though we did nothing to earn that or deserve it. We have been given the gift of life and should pay it forward as best we can.

Christ said beautifully this very point of endless forgiveness when he said "The sun rises on the good and the evil."

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:43-48

Hi Um
You wrote
". If it had to be the fate of worm-life to find apples in far away lands he would have known it from birth it would have been part of his natural being.

Left alone no worm would have known aboul apples in far away lands."

Unfortunately society and civilization do not leave us alone. They interfere with our natural sensitivity and awareness of what is in us. Society teaches us to ignore our body and even our mind in the pursuit of goals useful to others, but sold as useful to us.

Society teaches the worm to run out to foreign lands, rather than to understand the wealth it has right there inside the apple.

But some worms are connected to seeing what is naturally within them and need very little to learn to pay attention to it.

I think you misunderstood the original allegory. It was about seeing the treasure within you. That we must unlearn so much in order to simply attend to what is right here within is just a matter of undoing old conditioning.

Going within is natural, when conditioning and compulsions are set aside.

Try it. Or try it again.

@ Spence

You answer from WITHIN the game you are in, the rules that go with that game, and the worldview. I can give the answer you gave also and sometimes, surprise surprise I do give it to others.

It gets boring but I have to repeat again. That there are people, in number very very small, that have spontaneous, so called inner visions and experiences. But most people by nature do not have these experiences.

Those that had these experiences, understandably, have thought about how to re-create such an splendid experience for themselves and others, and in the course of evolution, history, they have come up with all sorts ot techniques practices.

They also had to explain what the content was of these experiences in order to motivated people to invest in these experiences and naturally they had to use LANGUAGE., concepts that were understandable by people and what they themselves had available.

These tales in the ended developed into what we know as religion, spiritual schools and traditions. After many ages these tales owned by schools and traditions have become kind of reality of their own in stead of just an description.

The psycho-somatic manipulation of the body has been discovered over time and ended in the scientific understanding that deprevation of the human brain, by necessety must cause, the brain to produce its own stimuli. If I remember his name well Prof Deickmann in the eighties has done some academic research to that extend.

The whole point is that the source of the voices, the persons, the powers etc that appear in inner experiences cannot be proven to be beyond the capacity of the person that has these experiences. Reason why these experiences, their content, was always unique.

To give an example in the line of Abraham, If you so called inner master orders you to tell something to others, he never appears in these persons telling them to heed your words, that you speak on his behalf

Having written this all .... these considerations are meaningless against the splendor of those that have these experiences and after All I have come to understand, if a similar thing would happen to me, I too, would act as they had done.

IThis just a point of view, I am not a teacher nor unable to have this point of view without arguing with others or questioning their believes etc

The only reason for interacting here is related to the slogan

Things are what they are
seldom what they look like
let alone how they are presented

Stressing the last line

@ Spence

Hahaha ... how many times did I not elaborate on that parable of the worm after it had been explained to me at great length and detail.

The tale tells abou [1] having HEARD about the apple is faced [2] with surmountable problems to reach at it

The far away land etc , climbing the tree, the apple itself etc all stand for a process INSIDE the body

The parable tells the story of a creature that on his own is NOT able to reach at that golden fruit, it needs the help of the EAGLE.

No need to elaborate further here... This is a parable developed from WITHIN the circle of the Game to make it clear to outsiders that an savior is a sine qua non.

Tales, games are all closed systems and from within that circle each and every imaginable question can be answered ... hahahaha

Hi Um
You wrote
"You answer from WITHIN the game you are in, the rules that go with that game, and the worldview."

It becomes circular to argue with mind about mind.

It is all mind, until you get to facts and direct experience.

There is a pathway there, and that is learning to observe or unlearning to see what is there before you and within you.

Improve the instrument that generates mind and you improve the functioning and objectivity of mind.

Hi Um
You wrote
"This is a parable developed from WITHIN the circle of the Game to make it clear to outsiders that an savior is a sine qua non."

This is a very abstract point Um. Any consideration of raising consciousness comes from within. It's already there. The source of life and our Master are already there, from birth, even before. Life is built into every living thing.

So we never act alone. We are the result of all life up to this moment, and will be carried forward as all these lines interact and proceed.

Our conscious participation at some point is required for our own progress.

Then other requirements come in of their own.

We all have our part to play. As for our Teachers, they do not need to be informed, told or asked, or even invited in. They are already there.

What seems news to you or I simply is new to our awareness. When we see, we beg. It is natural. That reflects our understanding. It is just a stage in its own time.

If you aren't begging every day in meditation, don't worry. You will.

It was always there.

And yes, teachers are required at every step.

We should focus on our own responsibility, to be good students.

@ A.R. [ what sets apart the human being, what is the essential humanity of the human being, is to realize that there are times when it is right to help others, and there are times when it is right not to help others, that there are times when it is right to bite, and times when it is right to refrain from biting. This capacity to make a choice, that is what is the essence of being a human being, as opposed to an unthinking brute. (Regardless of whether said brute is vicious or "kind".) ]

That encapsulates the beauty and profundity of Spence's retelling of
the original story very well in my opinion. Perhaps the most powerful
message though is the tortoise's response to the scorpion: "Yes, it is
your nature to sting.... And mine to forgive."

It's a possible mystic allegory: an enlightened teacher will always seek
to help those seeking to cross the ocean of existence... even knowing
the disciple's flaws, (ie, venom). But his power is great enough to
overcome the difficulties and, in time, take them both safely to the
other shore. This is evidenced in his strength, fearlessness, and most
notably his forgiveness during that perilous journey.
He then returns back to ferry others across.

@ Spence

Only those that have spontaneous have to deal with it.
All others have no reason whatsoever to do so ... THEM .. stories are told.

What you wrote in the second message.

For those that had no spontaneous experiences, whatever they happen to find inside as a result of that practice has been told to them.

You are not free to write what you want as you are prisoner of your experiences. That is alright as said before, if it would happen to me i would do the same ... maybe with the only difference ... i would remind mum and certainly not write here.

@ Dungeness

In both parables, that of the tortoise and the worm and the eagle, two creatures were NOT able on their own to reach a certain place ... they had to be transported by another.
=> the savior

umami reflecteth: Can a man, like a horse, walk and poop at the same time? "A horse is a horse, of course, of course." Think of animals as people and people as animals. The lotus poops ethereal.

Hi Um
You wrote
"Only those that have spontaneous have to deal with it.
All others have no reason whatsoever to do so ... THEM .. stories are told."

We are all experiencing all the time. The brain filters most of that out. There are many layers of filters including our biases and conditioning.

Any experience of raised consciousness, including simole learning of new facts, changes our view.

Thinking today about the past can awaken be insights.

Thinking today about tomorrow can also yield new insights.

Observing the moment in silence can deepen our awareness of what is actually taking place.

And with each insight comes renewed focus and understanding.

We thought it must be this way, only to realize it could be another way.

These are the mental reflections that arise as our awareness grows and our consciousness naturally expands.

Of course these make our own opinions obsolete, moment by moment.

Spiritual experience, awareness, insight is the opinion killer.

So any spiritual allegories are not to be taken as instructions, only encouragement to practice your own chosen method to raise awareness and consciousness, to make that a discipline, a career, a lifestyle.

Those writings are actually meant for practitioners. Practitioners already are focusing on gathering their attention inside, perhaps having tasted the divine. So they interpret these things as helpful reminders in their own practice.

Those who are not actively practicing interpret these stories as some statement of physical fact that applies to everyone in the world. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Everything you heard directly from the Master is only for your own personal use, not as a statement about people or history.

And every story you heard from other Satsangis is only to encourage attending to your practice.

When you read the Bible and others ' common interpretations they are meaningless unless you see something there to help improve your practice within.

I'm sorry to say there is nothing more of truth externally to be extracted from these things other than that. Factually, they are, from a worldly perspective, ridiculous, and should be dismissed from consideration. Except as they reflect your own internal situation and help you gain insights into your own practice and your inner journey.

@ Spence

Writing here becomes more and more tiresome and the motivation becomes weaker and weaker certainly when it is related to the cultural religious and spiritual heritage.

I am withdrawing into my own reality of daily life in which not much of what I have learned in the past is needed. and from which I try to get rid of ... after I woke up in the cinema, I call it, as a matter of joke, my mental garbage belt of my life. Garbage to get rid of as it prove little by little to be of no value as it had no foundation in personal experience and i am not a lover of abstracts ... and have little to none appreciation for what is considered as "cultural" .... others would call me an barberian of sorts ... hahaha.

I no longer want to understand, evaluate etc what others, i not even know in person have to say about life ... however big their names are. in whatever feeld of human activity.

In order to operate in the public domain without bothering others and be bothered by them, not very much is needed and for the rest I will have to deal with what this strange world happens to put before me. as I have always done.

@ Spence

Until some years ago, I have been looking outside myself for answers relating to life, i behaved as the man that was trying to find his keys that were lost at home into the streets of the world and the endless row of people that presented themselves as "knowers" offering all sorts of solutions.

The mere idea itself was wrong .... I am glad that finally I came to understand that I am alone in this world and it is up to me how I deal with it and even that is not all to much I came to learn and that I do not need to know anything from others.

So I do my best to stay at home literally and otherwise

(1) But how do you know the key was lost at home? How do you determine where it was you lost it?

(2) In any case, why do you think of it as having lost something you'd already had? Why not, instead, the metaphor of acquiring something that you've never ever had? Doesn't how you phrase that thought already kind of beg the question?


Not disagreeing with you, um. Just trying to better understand your POV, that you often express here, but that I haven't really properly understood so far, despite our many exchanges on this. Perhaps your answers to those two questions might clear this up for me.

@ AR

In older days I would shed tears ....not able to express what I wanted... reading your words.

How better than using that metaphor of waking up in the cinema can I give out?!
When a person is lost in the movie he is not conscious of himself.

From early childhood on the world is acting as a movie,
If you are silent now ... you might hear the world wispering ...AR hear upon us, ... Ar look at us .... AR here, here is everything you need ... Ar we are here to look after you, to care for you ..Its like the call of the sirens in the the Greek mythology.

Used to that bewitchment and seeing those that are near and dear doing it and others of great accomplishments it is not easy to let go of these sirens calling me outside, outside into the world, into the limelight that all around me share as their reality.

You have no idea how it upsets me to write these things down as they force themselves out of me... it almost fills me with disgust

And I want to put an end to it .. but by nature a social creature, and an easy believer, it is difficult to step back and be on my own and find pleasure in my own company

Dear um, please don't trouble yourself to answer if this upsets you. But I'll highlight these salient points that I still don't understand. Please feel free to leave it be, if you're not comfortable engaging with this.

(1) I get that, that the extroverted attraction, the drawing out to the ouside, that is something that distracts us all our lives. And I agree, getting rid of that distraction, or rather, getting rid of the compulsive engagement with that distraction that most of us unthinkingly give in to, that can be a huge relief. That much is fine. But beyond the cessation of that distraction, or rather the unhealthy compulsion to unceasingly engage with that distraction, is there anything further that you seek, or believe should be sought?

(2) If the answer is Yes, then why do you think of it as something you'd once had but now have lost? Why not, instead, as something that you'd never had, and might never ever have, but that you may, if you're lucky, somehow acquire from without?

(3) If the answer is No, then the key analogy isn't very clear to me. What, then, has been lost and is being sought?


Again, I'm only trying to understand your POV. It seems important, or at least potentially important, at least to you, and therefore possibly to me as well; but on the other hand, let me stress again, please drop this if this upsets you.

(4) In any case, um, I'm not really very clear why this should upset you. Does it trigger some painful memory, or something like that? (Sorry, don't mean to pry if prying is unwelcome. Answer this last only if you think it relevant, and only if you're comfortable doing that, and not otherwise.)

@ Ar

Ar, what are you doing here?
Ingesting what others put before you.
You started doing that from birth on.
First the smile and words of you mother, father etc,
Then you went ta elemetary school en so on probably finished the university as well.
In the mean time you bought many a book and you ingested what the writer had to say
And so you passed your live, ingesting what others have to say, ruminating about it etc

@ 3 nothing is lost and nothing is sought

@ 4 whether or not it is related to my past is for psychologists to think about but it is not my concern.

Is it so difficult to understand AR what acculturation means? The whole day, your whole life you have been spending with what others had and have to offer without for a moment for yourself ... what? ...not even have the slichtest idea of who and what you are without what has been put in your mind ... not that they forced it in side but you have been going to drink the mental milk from the breasts of this world as you were tought in the arms of your mother.

Is that so difficult?

Against this background it also might be clear that I am only interested in questions relate d to my self as human being, in all its activities ... or ... as a seeker, student.
In how much have I been a "perfect seeker" etc.
Answers to those questions can not be found by on an on discussing what everybody has to say about teachers etc.
Those answers are all to be found INSIDE myself, inside my own house in my own darkness/

Hi Um
You wrote
"It gets boring but I have to repeat again. That there are people, in number very very small, that have spontaneous, so called inner visions and experiences. But most people by nature do not have these experiences."

I think the number of people may be a bit more.

A friend of mine on one of their first visits to Dera, went with a group of friends and they started off their stay with daily jaunts into the surrounding areas, site seeing. At one point the sevadar in charge of the foreign guest house asked them why they were there. He reminded them that all the Sevedars there were serving them so they could have this opportunity to focus on their spiritual development. My friend remarked, a little cynically, that everyone was there for that, and that they too were doing some Seva here and there.

The sevedar said, "I think this is a little more serious than that. This is a lifetime's work. How many of all these Sevadars that you see do you think have the inner Darshan of the master?"

My friend replied, "I don't know, maybe one or two?"

And the Sevedar said, "No. Almost all of them."

We often believe whatever flatters our own level of thinking. But reality is generally quite different and much more serious.

@ Spence

Your friend is American ... ask those the followers in your own country.

Having been around with some Indian followers in this country for quite a while, I have come to understand that the the way they handle sant mat is different from westerners, so much so that some of them doubt if we are really initiated and that has to do with what is and has to be seen, starting from before the initiation. This is not the place, time and certainly not for me to go into the details of what is seen by them. It must be something cultural. Writing this I am reminded of the huge difference in the way indians digest movies, certainly those with an religious theme. It has been reported in the media that some have no problem believing an actor to be the actual person he represents or jumping from roofs thinking they are able to fly as they saw in the movies ... their capacity to get lost in a fiction is enormous.

Being on the road with some, for long, long hours, many of these miraculous stories were told to me, as if it was the most normal thing to experience. I could sit and write here for hours and hours at a strech recounting these stories.

It was great fun to hear how the lord saved them from god knows how many critical situations and the many many visions even when driving the car at "indian" speed ... hahaha. They would not believe I never had any of these encounters ... "uncle" just said it out of humility .... hahaha

And in the train from Beas to Delhi, traveling with an elderly Indian couple, we were asked how the darshan was that morning waking up from sleep. After telling them I at least had never had it, they remained mum and spoke no word to us again ... probably there must have been something terrible wrong with us not having inner dartshan.

Hahahaha Spence .. life is funny now and than.

By character being able to rejoice with others, their stories have never been a problem for me. ... to bring them up here as witness is a reminder of that pleasure to be around but has no impact on what I wrote before.

I didn't look upon Sant Mat as a regional, cultural religious movement but these days I do and most people in the west that I spoke to over decades have the slightest idea about what that means ... they are religious colonialists ... hahaha

um, thanks for trying to clarify what clearly seems somewhat distressing to you.

I think I'm beginning to understand your perspective now. Basis your life experiences you've come to the conclusion that whatever is of worth personally to you, is to be found within you; and the rest is simply, as you call it, culture, external to you, and in your view unnecessary to you. Correct me if I'm wrong in so interpreting, but that seems to the be crux of your personal philosophy, correct?

Fair enough. That is a good enough personal philosophy, as far as I'm concerned.

I just have one final question, though, if you wouldn't mind humoring me. As far as the possibility of finding something of worth that is not intrinsic to you, as far as the possibility of finding something external that will actually be of real use and benefit to you, it has to be one of two possibilities: Either (a) You have come to the decision that even if there is something of worth out there you're content to let it go (and that is a perfectly consistent way of looking at things, should that approach appeal to you); or else (b) You have come to conclusion that there cannot possibly be anything outside of you that might be beneficient to you in the ultimate sense (in which case I'm curious why you think that).

You get me, right? The paragraph above holds two options, one of which applies to you. Is it (a), or is it (b)? If it is (a), then that is a personal decision, and it is as good a decision as any. But if it is (b), then I'm curious as to the basis of your conclusion that nothing of real worth is to be found outside and anything of real worth is only to be found within you (and, extending this somewhat, generalizing this somewhat, that anything of real worth is only to be found within us).


You keep saying this question is distressing to you. It's not very clear to me why that should be so; but, hey, it's perfectly fine, um, if you shouldn't want to discuss this anything further, no issues at all. I'm grateful for your having opened up about this as much as you have, in response to my questioning, despite the distress you speak of; and it's perfectly cool if you want to drop it right now. But if you do feel comfortable engaging with this issue one last time, then the specific question I've raised in the preceding paragraph might help clarify for me what has been puzzling me about your personal philosophy.

@ AR
Your conclusion in the first paragraph is more or less correct.

after writing I decided to delete it again, feeling that I have done enough to express my point of view, Consider this decision ast that of an artist that decide that his work was done and leave the rest to the observer, to do with it whatever he wants. Both have their duty and I feel I have done mine.

But ...There are two things receptivity and love. AR

If a person misses the capacity to enjoy food, one can put before him whatever delicious food available it will remain blant. No food outside can generate that capacity to enjoy

If a person is in a miserable mood, whatever he cooks, is watery and lacks content, however prepared according the rules of the Haute Cuisine

All thse things are INSIDE a human. Whatever he does outside should start inside.

The essence of things can ONLY be understood INSIDE the human body. Once he is aware of his own essence he will be able to see the essence of ALL the things, despite the unique variations of the outside. Thereafter he will realize that the essence in all things is the same.

It is impossible to know penetrate a thing and understand it from within by researching its form, its cover its outside .. let alone talking about it with others.

Hi UM:
You wrote:
"Your friend is American ... ask those the followers in your own country.

Having been around with some Indian followers in this country for quite a while, I have come to understand that the the way they handle sant mat is different from westerners, so much so that some of them doubt if we are really initiated and that has to do with what is and has to be seen, starting from before the initiation."

My friend related the story decades later, to show where he and others started. But that isn't where he ended up.

It seems quaint to hear people tell stories of their inner Master. And as you write, the ignorance of simple minded folks who do things that clearly indicate they do not actually have a connection to reality.

But it is quite another to have conversations with the Westerners (and some from other nations, such as India) who never gave credence to the miracle stories, who are PhDs, MDs, scientists, mathematicians, engineers...but now, after decades of practice, have their own stories.

The mind has imagination, which is informed by many things.

But beyond mind there is experience. Simple faith, that starts out as blind faith, with dedication, and discrimination honed over decades, humility, humbled by understanding and experience end up seeing more, more directly, more clearly.

What started as an idea, a picture in a book, a road map in a guide, some fable about a distant land, has become a real, tangible place, with real, tangible people. All it took was taking God up on the offer to make the journey within.

Then we don't dismiss everyone's vision as imagination. We dismiss this reality as largely painted over by our imagination. That's actually how the brain works. It creates a symbolic representation of our visual and auditory world. Every person you know is recreated in your mind, and informed by whatever exposure you have to them. Increase the exposure and your imagined version of your real friend becomes more and more accurate. But that painted over imagined version is the only version you will ever know, using the human mind.

Go beyond that process, leave mind, withdraw attention to its very center, and that is touching reality directly, without the CGI of the human brain interfering in layers.

It can happen by the effort of intellectuals to see finer the very edge of things by holding still the mind...

And it can happen from pure love that simply refuses to accept any and every false thing, either here or within.

But take you there...

But both are representations of something inside you pulling, pulling, pulling you there...dragging you there already.

It is a natural pull. We just have to give it air time, give it desktop space.

@ Spence
"" It is a natural pull. We just have to give it air time, give it desktop space.<<

No problem Spence :-)
IF ... the pull is there THAN, it is correct to give it air etc.

But Spence .... if the pull is not there, there is nothing one can do.

The same holds for other things like "receptivity to the pull etc" if not there there is nothing one can do.

Spence In most monasteries there is a so called novitiate , a proces of 2 years or more under the close mentorship of a seasoned and well trained monk to find out what that pull was that made the young monk as for interance in the monastery.

Have you ever heard of a monastery where they were able to create an "calling" ?
Have you ever heard of a musicisian that he was able to generate talent in others?
I do not.

No effort in the world can create that talent, that desire, that love, that devotion that faith, when it is not there.

Yes people like yourself in which tthat talent that pull made itself known, they have to look after it and do something with it.

But there are few people like yourself.
That is not a problem, at least not to me.

The problem is the suggestion that what you have, can be had by others if ... if ... they only would listen to you.

I speak directly to the RSSB agents that constantly defend the self claimed biggest crook on the planet. They know who they are and are conveniently ganging up and trying to get bonuses for doing the seva of satan / Lucifer. Why don't you sell your RSSB propaganda on RSSB sites, surely that is your target audience, after all this site is called church of the churchless, not RSSB science of the soul (total bull).

Brian has shown more than enough evidence, over the years, on this awesome site and dhillons agents are blinded by the fool, and hypocrite guru of beas. The agents are crafty at creating doubts, but the question is if donkey dhillon is so innocent why doesn't he prove it in the courts instead of running to the other side of the world. You also want everyone to trust those internal entities and follow the path they send you on. This is nothing but a yellow brick road to hell, where the fake ass wizard of oz lives that hides behind huge walls and a cloak - does this remind you of anyone you know?. These are the entities Spensor trusts blindly and has fooled him to dance to the tune of demonic entities. Gsd your days are numbered, you will soon know the real meaning of karma as it will be served to you on a plate.

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