RSSB guru standards have sunk a lot since Charan Singh's time

Writing recently about how the current guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), Gurinder Singh Dhillon, threatened people whose village is involved in a property dispute with RSSB, got me to thinking about how different things are guru-wise compared to the time Dhillon's predecessor, Charan Singh, headed up the organization.

I was initiated by Charan Singh in 1971. He died in 1990. So for nineteen years I was exposed to how Charan Singh handled being guru.

This included two weeks in 1977 I spent at the Dera, RSSB headquarters in India, when I got to hear him speak and answer questions in English at evening meetings along with having two brief personal interviews with Charan Singh.

Plus, I read all of his books numerous times, listened to cassette tape recordings of him speaking and answering questions, and repeatedly watched several RSSB videos made during the time Charan Singh was guru. 

There was never any doubt in my mind that Charan Singh was a deeply warm, friendly, honest, humble, sincere, compassionate person. Let's leave aside the question of whether he was God in Human Form, as the RSSB teachings say.

Charan Singh was an exemplary person. He fulfilled his duties as RSSB guru with grace. The only "scandalous" talk I ever heard about him was that he had disciples bypass India customs through some scheme involving watches, if I recall correctly.

The fact that I can't remember this very well shows that it wasn't a big deal. 

Compared to what Gurinder Singh Dhillon has been accused of, it's absolutely nothing. I have no problem recalling most of the scandals the current RSSB guru has been enmeshed in, though I may have omitted some in this 2020 post, "RSSB guru's life should be closely examined."

Here's an excerpt from that post, which nicely sums up why I think it makes sense to pay close attention to how Dhillon has been behaving. In short, not very well, especially compared to previous RSSB gurus.

Dhillon is a public figure. He is the leader of a religious organization with millions of followers. He is shown in You Tube videos that are viewed by many.

And Dhillon also has been the subject of many stories in the Indian financial press regarding the involvement of the guru, his family, and close associates in a financial scandal where allegedly hundreds of millions of dollars were illegally siphoned off from companies once controlled by the Singh brothers, who are relatives of the guru, into shell companies and unsecured loans to the Dhillon family.

Here's a sampling of blog posts I've written about the questionable activities of the RSSB guru.

Malvinder's criminal complaint casts light on RSSB guru's role in financial fraud
Devastating criticism of Gurinder Singh Dhillon by a RSSB insider
Delhi Police financial fraud charges point to RSSB guru's involvement
Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the RSSB guru, accused of making death threats
Sheetal Talwar talks about death threat made from RSSB satsang office
Sheena's "Memoirs of a Seeker" throws light on Gurinder Singh Dhillon
Bloomberg story shows Gurinder Singh Dhillon's shady business dealings
RSSB guru appears to have lied about his financial problems

It is easy for a guru to appear all spiritual, loving, and trustworthy when he or she is sitting on a stage, surrounded by fawning followers, with nobody asking tough questions about the guru's personal life outside of his religious duties. 

But none of us is only who we are at our best public moments. There's much more to us that only comes to light in private moments. Knowing the full picture isn't important when it comes to most people we know.

For example, I don't need to know the private life of my doctor, hair cutter, plumber, or electrician, because this isn't relevant to my relationship with them. However, in the case of a guru who is considered to be God in Human Form by his devotees, a trusted spiritual guide with upstanding morals, it definitely is highly relevant how the guru behaves in his private life.

I just spent an enjoyable four days, Monday through Thursday, watching every prime time minute of the Democratic National Convention. It didn't feature just the public side of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. It also showed lots of details about their personal and private life.

That's the only way to understand who a politician really is. And it's also the only way to understand who a guru really is. You can't claim to be a "perfect" guru if in your personal life you're doing some decidedly imperfect things.

So if you're a member of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, ignore the admonition to not be interested in the guru's personal life. Sure, usually a person's private life should be off-limits to public scrutiny. But not when a person occupies an important public role, like wanting to be President or Vice-President of the United States.

In that case, as in the case of a guru who supposedly is a highly elevated spiritual being capable of guiding people back to God. it makes sense to get to know the entire person, not just their public persona.

Comments

[Arun Marwah]

Brian, I have hundred percent similar views to the whole saga. GSD has been a big let down for followers of RSSB teachings. He should have resigned from his post of spiritual head and faced the law as a ordinary citizen. But he appears to be a totally shameless guy sticking to the job like a leech.

[um]

@ Arun

Things, facts are what they are,
seldom what they appear to be,
let alone how they are perceived.

GSD being the fact, he is looked upon some with hatred etc and by some with love.

These feelings, these perceptions are all the creation of the onlookers, it speaks about THEM.

There are some that are more intrested in how others fulfill their roles and the duties attached to them than the roles they have taken upon their own shoulders.

Believe, faith, devotion, love etc come all from within, they are gifts, they are like alight that gives brilliance to everything it shines upon.

Without that love, devotion faith, most, if not all facts of life, people inclueded, are dull, dull like a stone at the bank of the river.

[Arun Marwah]

@ UM, I Do not know you or speak about you. My father will be ashamed of the acts (done by GSD,) if one of his children had committed same acts of financial impropriety. RSSB books emphasise on honest financial behaviour. The spiritual head has flouted all those principals, to say the least.

[um]

@ Arun

You need not to know me and you are free to look at facts of this life as much as you deem fit and attach any value to these facts, certainly in comparison to other facts.

Figuring out what GSD does and does not and compare it to standards to be found in books, how detailed and correct done, will not add to you will not change you or the world.

That ... that was MY point ...pointing out the doings of another does not make you a better person and does not undermine the moral standards found and appreciated by you in the books.

In the days i was still involved with this path I came to learn from its teacher in those days that there is a difference between people do [theft] and who they are [thieve] ... stealing I understood does not turn a person into a thieve] .. he remains who and what he was before.

It is jus an attitude of mind

[Uchit]

The facts as you present them Brian speak volumes of the character of Gurinder Singh Dhillon. If you want to look at the motives of a person look at the actions. Anyone that does not see the facts staring them in the face are either blind sheep or are RSSB agents that believe they are due a promotions in GSDs empire. You may be lucky, as GSD may be looking for a personal toilet sevadar, as that's where he will be spending most his time. Remember, RSSB minions, only 1 person wins when you side with the devil and, I give you a clue , it's not the minions.

This fake gurus days are numbered as social media is exposing this mafia mogal as a fraud and a con man he has been working so hard to hide. The dirty old man has more cracks in his carefully manufactured image than cracked concrete. How can anyone normal honestly say this clown is god in human form ~ Wake up from your sleep sangat and spread the word.

[um]

@ Uchit

What do you think from what your postings tells us about you?!

As for Manoy, you have in all the messages here never disclosed a thing that was not already lknow to the media and thos who read and write here.... nothing at all ... an you will nevr be able to do so.

You are like a man in the court room where a man is brought to be heard by the judge, screaming to all present, he is a crimnal, he is a criminal, he is a criminal

Hahahaha

[Waco, TX]

One of the main reasons people who follow RSSB should be concerned about their spiritual leaders’ private as well as public lives, is because the very nature of the role of the guru is to show people how to behave both in their private and their public life.

The guru isn’t just teaching people how to behave in one aspect of their lives. He’s supposed to be an example of how one lives both inwardly and outwardly. So yes, for this reason, every aspect of the guru’s life is open to scrutiny and that is the way it should be.

When you claim to be a spiritual voice for God, or even worse, claim to be God, then you forfeit your right to any privacy whatsoever. Sorry, that’s just GIHF 101.

And if you don’t like it, get another job.

Gurus need to stop building self-glorifying empires. They’re not serving anyone except themselves.

[Waco, TX]

No rest for the wicked.

No privacy for gods.

[Waco, TX]

Actually, the whole notion of a private life for a Living Master is utterly absurd. They aren’t entitled to a private life because they claim to be perfect—they claim to be God in Human Form.

Unless they want to start teaching that “God isn’t perfect” then they gotta start acting like the “perfect” god they claim to be.

That’s 24 hours a day, seven days a week. (You’ll find that in the fine print of the job description.)

Best not to preach. Best just to live.

[Manoj]

RSSB guru standards have sunk alot since Charan Singhs time

And Gurinder Singh Dhillion has finally broke the camels back and sunk the Radha Soami Ship, Forever

These standards are always set as a per baba by basis method, in other words "whatever the heck they would like to do whilst they're time at office"

The newly recruited baba Gurinder Singh Dhillion at his current time at office went ahead and made one too many changes and accidentally over stepped and over exposed his uncontrollable greed filled hands and showed us all his silly actions, which has lead to the World questioning his real motives and his personal beliefs now

As were still all watching and waiting for some real answer's...

Meanwhile it shows us all, when a new successor gets the job as the new fake baba he needs to be careful as to what he lets the world see about himself and in Gurinder Singh Dhillions case he messed up and that on a big scale too and has literally bought the whole Radha Soami Organisinzation to its knees by making a mockery of it and showing the true intentions of the deciteful cunning scandalous International religious cult that it is and at its core it's unethical Leader Gurinders real motives

The power and greed filled Gurinder was never the right candidate from the start and like Baba Ram Rahim MSG and many others, Gurinder has also abused his position and power for selfish world wide wants n privileges and personal family wealth for his two lovely greedy sons

Gurinder Singh Dhillions evidence of the many a fraudalent actions are on show on so many different platforms and media for all of us to see anytime

Exposed Evidence Everywhere...

Newspapers
Television
Google
Internet, YouTube , Tik Tok
Videos
Pictures
Voice recordings
Witnesses
Police statements
Malvinders statement
Court cases
Court appearances which of many
Dearth Threats to a many
Financial Fraud
Tax Fraud
Land Grabbing India and worldwide
Punjab Drug mafia relations
Political relations for votes in India
Gurdwara demolitions india
Personal ex Radha Soami disciples tell it all
Jailing land protesters
Wife's very mysterious death u.k
Sons becoming multi millionaires overnight
Changes of Rssb names to Science of the Soul to be looked as an underfunded charity in U.K
Much Construction work carried out at Haynes Park without planning permission
Many sevadars dying at Haynes Park U.K
Shady Business Dealings worldwide
Siphoning Millions of Dollars
Pedophile Court case Spain
Well known Womaniser Internationally
And so so much more...

If you love you're Questions & Answers session's Gurinder Singh Dhillion, there's just a few, which definitely need to be answered.

Maybe on your next Q&A you will, but then again you love to hide, you've grown so use to it now, haven't you to this very bad debilitating habit

There's no such a question as a private question when you're a PUBLIC figure as a role model in this world. So don't hide behind that false persona, we can all see through it anyway and Answers them dam questions !

As our parents use to say " dont hang out with that bad character he may rub onto you" now this is one very bad character,  indeed and we all know what to do

All this little parrot loves to is preach, blah blah blah not a ounce of substance between them silly little ears, Just all mouth

Give yourself that Special Sunday Satsang you're definitely overdue one and it may make the world of some good to you too anyways

[um]

@ Manoj

India has created the importance of religion in social life long ago. It has become part of its culture, its identity. Being a follower of this or that deity, guru or whatever is as normal in India as breathing. Take away the religious activity and India will be a body without a head and a face india is not an secular society, it never was and indians are no Europeans and Americans for which religion is something that is forced upon them and was never something of the heart.

You look at GSD and I look at the masses, the millions that follow him. That represents the will, the desire, the longing of the masses ... GSD is just a means to an end.

As long as they wish to give their devotio to him, he has to sit there and receive it, they do not have the power to refuse that gift.

You do not have the power to change that energy.

The indian masses are the OWNERS of their Gods and guru's ... hahahaha and you are not going to take that away from them

[Faiyaz]

@um I've heard your arguments and with respect you do not make any sense at all. I don't understand why you are on this site. Also by your reasoning you accept murderers and rapist as okay and write it off as just a perception and therefore totally acceptable. Your crazy and deluded.

I have heard about the arguments against the guru and totally agree he's a total hypocrite, yet thousands still go to his satsangs even when I know in my deepest heart I know he is making it all up. RSSB is so much different know as when charan use to be the leader. Even though charan was a womaniser and had his secret female "friend". Baba Ji is not a god, not perfect saint, and should not be giving satsangs. He should immediately dissolve the RSSB movement.

[Ram]

Theres nothing greater than self love, instead of giving all your energy to a vampire cultish organisation. Looks like Gurinder has been misleading others and trying to create a massive following, just like an attention seeking kid on tik tik. The following creates a great leverage for votes and power. The great thing about this arrangement is that the guru is not voted in by the sangat so has a guaranteed seat of power, that is until his polished image gets tarnished.

[Tendzin]

There is still no evidence for Brian's claim that Gurinder threatened anyone.

As for Charan, the perennial question: How did he support his family in royal style from 1951 to 1990 while working full time as RSSB's guru? Where did the money come from? Charan never said, and yet he wasn't shy about publicly shaming initiates who had money problems, sententiously intoning to them "you must earn your own way in the world."

As for Charan's honesty, he promoted himself as a Godman, told initiates that there was absolutely no way to be saved except through sant mat meditation on him, as Godman. When you think about it, Charan was one of the most rigid and controlling gurus in the spiritual marketplace, right up there with Pradhupada. I remember one initiate reporting to Charan that she'd meditated faithfully for 20 years but had no experience, and Charan's only reply was "well, meditation has other benefits." Charan avoided giving straight answers to hard questions about Sant mat and his role as guru. Never once would he admit that he had no powers, and yet he encourage one and all to believe "Maharaji" was God in Human Form.

I doubt if Charan cared at all about any of us, or least, loved us as we imagined he did as Sat Guru. We were looking for a Father in him, but in Treasure Beyond Measure Charan confesses that he would much rather spend time with his own loved ones and family than with us satsangis. Charan quite often lamented being a guru -- this wasn't divine humility, it was a confession that he felt trapped. I've also heard from one initiate how Charan treated his servants rudely.

Charan clearly was doing his guru-gig because his family told him he had no other choice. Along the way his family somehow became extremely wealthy.

It's rather bizarre to me that tons of people have reported that they feel their RSSB experience amounted to years of wasted time, and yet they love, love, love Charan and don't hold him accountable for being the guy who offered them this pipe dream. So strange.

And yet these same people can't stop howling at the moon about Gurinder, who btw was directly chosen by Charan. Nepotism in the RSSB guru line started with Charan.

While some of the charges I see posted here about Charan are just calumny, it's true there are things in Gurinder's past that bear scrutiny. The weird story of the loan to Gurinder from Talwar (which apparently has been paid back, as we've not heard anything about that in the media for years). And of course the whole Ranbaxy thing, where one of the guilty parties accused Gurinder of playing a major but occult part. Yet no court has ruled that Gurinder was at fault. But of course we're in post-modern Justice League form, where speculation passes for hard evidence of actual wrongdoing.

But maybe the worst is true -- well again, this is the guru that Charan gave you. If Gurinder is pure evil, what does that say about Charan?

Yes, the guru should be closely examined. But when are we going to examine ourselves? Someone who writes for years about how terrible RSSB is and at the same time lauds the Guru of RSSB as a wonderful person may have some version of Stockholm Syndrome at work in their psyche.

[Breaking News]

Charan didn’t appoint Gurinder. Crookery from the start.

[Dungeness]

@ Tendzin [ As for Charan's honesty, he promoted himself as a Godman, told initiates that there was absolutely no way to be saved except through sant mat meditation on him, as Godman. ]

I agree with many of your points but no genuine mystic promotes
his practice to the exclusion of others nor touts it as the only true
path. Neither would they refer to themselves in the first person as
a Guru or saviour. Their hallmark is humility and service.

[um]

@ Tendzin

.>>But when are we going to examine ourselves?<<

THAT is the question Tendzin

What you wrote are just the OPINIONS of different types of followers.

Gurus are what they are,
seldom what they look like or appear to be,
let alone how they are perceived by the multi mental and multi cultural followers.

There is the TEACHER and there are the TEACHINGS

There are the followers and the opinions they ATTRIBUTE TO = PROJECT ON their teachers.

In the end, examining one selves, one can come to understand that all came to ask for their own motivations, their own expectations, their own hopes and their own ideas about the teacher and his teachings.

They all come for their own selfish reasons, material, mental and even spiritual.

Just to use proper language here they are not interest in the teacher let alone in his teachings ... they want him to give what the want, they want him to solve their problems and hopes in life, they want him to be responsible for their happiness and misery.

It is all a psychological game that is played.

One can look upon this path, like any other path as an INVITATION, and revelation that there are other [better] contents of consciousness can be had.

Yes people should examine themselves, about how they came to the path how they handled it and doing doing so they will understand many a thing they seem to see outside as seemingly attributes of the teacher and even the teachings.

hahahaha ... and when they not get what they had promised them selves they walk away blaming the teacher being a miserable father ... hahahaha

He was a black mirror ... hahaha

[um]

AND .....

Once I saw a documentary on monastic life. A nun was interviewed and asked if her prayers were ever answered, with a big smile she said "no". The interviewer then asked but home come that you continue after so many years without any reaction ..her answer was ... "I just happen to LOVE this live of prayer"

It is all about "love" in live irrespective the play that is at hand be it material, mental or spiritual. ... love, in simple terms of what one wants to GIVE from ones self, what to invest with PLEASURE.

We have saying that says ... It is all about the pleasure to be put in] the game and not the marbles [ that can be won with playing the game]

Will-power is often defined as the power that is needed to do things we do not want to do but it can also be defined as the power that comes available when we invest in things we want . The more invested the more power is freed and becoming available.

Often humans have heard about the benefits from investing in this or that activity. They come to also have THEIR share of the cake but they do not like the game.

They never understand that the benefit commes from their own heart, their own investment .... as ... FREE GIFT

Living creatures are gifted with attention, consciousness for free [ not to say there is a giver] .... it is up to them to be GIVERS themselves.

The more one gives the more one receives....gurus have nothing to give of themselves
.... but that simple message

Poor beggars make poor givers

[Armada]

RSSB guru standards have sunk alot since Charan Singhs time

And Gurinder Singh Dhillion has finally broke the camels back and sunk the Radha Soami Ship, Forever

These standards are always set as a per baba by basis method, in other words "whatever the heck they would like to do whilst they're time at office"

The newly recruited baba Gurinder Singh Dhillion at his current time at office went ahead and made one too many changes and accidentally over stepped and over exposed his uncontrollable greed filled hands and showed us all his silly actions, which has lead to the World questioning his real motives and his personal beliefs now

As were still all watching and waiting for some real answer's...

Meanwhile it shows us all, when a new successor gets the job as the new fake baba he needs to be careful as to what he lets the world see about himself and in Gurinder Singh Dhillions case he messed up and that on a big scale too and has literally bought the whole Radha Soami Organisinzation to its knees by making a mockery of it and showing the true intentions of the deciteful cunning scandalous International religious cult that it is and at its core it's unethical Leader Gurinders real motives

The power and greed filled Gurinder was never the right candidate from the start and like Baba Ram Rahim MSG and many others, Gurinder has also abused his position and power for selfish world wide wants n privileges and personal family wealth for his two lovely greedy sons

Gurinder Singh Dhillions evidence of the many a fraudalent actions are on show on so many different platforms and media for all of us to see anytime

Exposed Evidence Everywhere...

Newspapers
Television
Google
Internet, YouTube , Tik Tok
Videos
Pictures
Voice recordings
Witnesses
Police statements
Malvinders statement
Court cases
Court appearances which of many
Dearth Threats to a many
Financial Fraud
Tax Fraud
Land Grabbing India and worldwide
Punjab Drug mafia relations
Political relations for votes in India
Gurdwara demolitions india
Personal ex Radha Soami disciples tell it all
Jailing land protesters
Wife's very mysterious death u.k
Sons becoming multi millionaires overnight
Changes of Rssb names to Science of the Soul to be looked as an underfunded charity in U.K
Much Construction work carried out at Haynes Park without planning permission
Many sevadars dying at Haynes Park U.K
Shady Business Dealings worldwide
Siphoning Millions of Dollars
Pedophile Court case Spain
Well known Womaniser Internationally
And so so much more...

If you love you're Questions & Answers session's Gurinder Singh Dhillion, there's just a few, which definitely need to be answered.

Maybe on your next Q&A you will, but then again you love to hide, you've grown so use to it now, haven't you to this very bad debilitating habit

There's no such a question as a private question when you're a PUBLIC figure as a role model in this world. So don't hide behind that false persona, we can all see through it anyway and Answers them dam questions !

As our parents use to say " dont hang out with that bad character he may rub onto you" now this is one very bad character, indeed and we all know what to do

All this little parrot loves to is preach, blah blah blah not a ounce of substance between them silly little ears, Just all mouth

Give yourself that Special Sunday Satsang you're definitely overdue one and it may make the world of some good to you too anyways

Posted by: Manoj | January 12, 2022 at 09:38 AM

Pedophile court case in Spain????????

Need more info

He sounds disgusting 🤮 🤮🤮

[Tendzin]

Charan is on tape, dozens of times, telling initiates that there is no other way than the meditation technique they were "given" by the Master. The actual amount of times Charan has claimed there is no other way than RSSB no doubt runs into the thousands. Unlike Gurinder, Charan authored and authorized numerous books that included flyleafs and forwards by RSSB initiates that stated Charan was a Godman with unique spiritual powers. Charan hardly needed to refer to himself in the first person as a Godman, his entire organization did that for him, and he never once protested or corrected them.

Unlike Gurinder, Charan is not on record for ever once saying that another religion -- or even Sant mat guru -- is competent to lead one to God.

Unlike Gurinder, Charan is on record for saying that Buddhism is basically a dead religion, and that Hindus (specifically those who revere Ram) are likewise following a dead path.

Unlike Gurinder, Charan is on record for saying that all religious leaders, e.g. priests, "are only concerned with their number of followers" and are therefore false teachers.

Who started the big push for the Dera to acquire more land? Charan. Back when he was alive, I'm not aware that any satsangi cared a jot about that.

Nor did any of you with woke sensibilities care when Charan stated that homosexuality was evil.

Perhaps Gurinder has been wrong about certain things. Yet he never wrote the absurdly fanciful revisionist books Charan wrote about the Bible, such as St. John the Great Mystic.

Charan or Gurinder: which Guru constantly complained about being a guru? Everyone knows how Charan constantly bemoaned his fate, ran away in the beginning. And yet for some reason Gurinder is blamed for taking on the job that, yes, his uncle Charan appointed him to.

The negative attitude that Charan initiates have about Gurinder has always puzzled me. These initiates praise Charan for teaching the "real" sant mat and holding firm to its principles. Yet when Gurinder advised that the rennet in cheese was indeed animal food and mattered, these initiates were aghast.

Initiates of Charan dearly wanted to physically be with the guru, so you'd think they'd approve when Charan's successor made repeated trips to the U.S., far more than Charan ever made. But no, they were up in arms about these visits and found them to deeply unfair and manipulative.

Are you getting the picture?

I'm no psychologist, but it's obvious to me there's a very glaring and strange contradiction in the way some Charan initiates react to Gurinder. When I point this out, I get inane responses like "contradictions are part of life" and other evasions.

One theory: I think many initiates look at these two gurus as Dad and Step Dad. One is good, and the other evil, and they then spin all kinds of stories about how pure and glorious the one Dad was and how corrupt and abusive was the other.

But that's just my theory, and no RSSB initiate has shown the least interest in trying it on for size, so carry on.

I can't wait to hear the next Gurinder scandal extrapolated from what one person told another about a single sentence from Punjabi, and how the reason the media isn't commenting on this bombshell is because Gurinder has them in his power. Hard-hitting news journalism!

[um]

@ Tenzin

In the movie "the last emperor" one can see the colorfull feodal regime under the Chinese Emoerors being replace by party members in green uniforms.

Given the power, the use and misuse of that power, nothing has changed, it just appears different.

Can you imagine what it would have been for the people in the different classes of society?? ..... hahahaha

[Dungeness]

@Tendzin [ Charan is on tape, dozens of times, telling initiates that there is no other way than the meditation technique they were "given" by the Master. The actual amount of times Charan has claimed there is no other way than RSSB no doubt runs into the thousands. Unlike Gurinder, Charan authored and authorized numerous books that included flyleafs and forwards by RSSB initiates that stated Charan was a Godman with unique spiritual powers. Charan hardly needed to refer to himself in the first person as a Godman, his entire organization did that for him, and he never once protested or corrected them. ]

There's a subtle yet important difference. Charan was clarifying to RSSB
"initiates" that there was "no other way than the meditation techniques (of
RSSB) to make progress on the path into which they were initiated. It was
not an absolutist claim RSSB was the only true path or Charan was the
sole true "Godman". Nor did Charan need to disavow claims written in
"flyleaf/forward" pages that he's a Godman with "unique spiritual powers."
After all, RSSB says God resides in all. So does the potential for humility
and service to humanity... among the greatest of spiritual powers.

[ Unlike Gurinder, Charan is not on record for ever once saying that another
religion -- or even Sant mat guru -- is competent to lead one to God.
... ]

Did you exhaustively examine all the possible sources? Did Charan need
to explicitly go on record to validate himself as a "woke" mystic...
I disagree any silence or missing commentary is meaningful.

[ Unlike Gurinder, Charan is on record for saying that all religious leaders, e.g. priests, "are only concerned with their number of followers" and are therefore false teachers. ]

I suspect that's true except for the likely dubious insertion of the word "all"
and "false". Mystics however will critique practices/beliefs/rituals which fail
to point out truth is inside us and must be experienced there.

[manjit]

In regards Charan, I have to say one of the most egregiously harmful and lacking in compassion, wisdom, insight etc things I have ever.....EVER......heard or read from ANY RS guru, is Charan's PRINTED comments on homosexuality, which I personally found heartbreakingly abhorrent (an ABSOLUTE final nail in any pretence that any of these guys should be listened to as any kind of authority in life, let alone "Perfect Living Masters", for me personally):

""In “Quest for Light,” a book containing extracts from letters written by an Indian guru, Charan Singh, the guru said:
"Please remember that anything that is against Nature is always improper and inadvisable. Nature has created the two sexes for the continuation of the species and for the satisfaction of the sex instinct within proper limits. If we go against it, it means we are doing something unnatural of which the laws of Nature do not approve. Homosexuality is contrary to all laws of Nature and no decent society approves it. The act is humiliating and degenerating not only in the eyes of others, but also in the eyes of those who are involved…There are no habits which we cannot break if we have the will and determination to do so."""

Just to clarify, as has been insinuated by more than one rapidly aging RSSB satsangi when I criticised this profoundly damaging, ignorant, judgmental & abhorrent PRINTED statement, I am not homosexual and have never been attracted to my own sex (alas, doubling the pool of people I find attractive seems like fun to me personally ;).

I just happen to think (and, indeed, experienced) an "all merciful God", who "loves unconditionally" and is beyond the realm of karma and judgement, etc, probably doesn't want people to humiliate and degenerate others for the way they were born, but hey ho, to each their own culturally bigoted, biased, judgemental God who hates fags.........but beware such a judgemental God doesn't turn on you and your Gurus.

As for the smuggling of watches, Brian may think it "is no big deal", but I always found that tale very disconcerting. Why would a "perfect living master" involve his "spiritual children" in such materialistic and borderline criminal and purely materialistic schemes? Eh.....perhaps "RSSB Guru Standards" were never too high to begin with?

Hey - "Tendzin", you wrote "Nor did any of you with woke sensibilities care when Charan stated that homosexuality was evil."

Woke sensibilities? Do you mean compassionate, empathetic human beings who are happy and content within themselves, and feel love, understanding tolerance towards other sentient beings?

Oh sorry, I forget you think Trump is the second coming of Christ. As you were with your constant and incessant, inherently & implicitly fear, misery, anger, divisive, privileged and entitlement based choice of vocabulary and arguments. It's no surprise you have a growing affinity for Gurinder when even life-time devotees can see through the ego-centric and deeply un-spiritual charade! I suspect you had your own "coming" when you read that Gurinder said positive things about Trump in another comment.....;)

Good luck with that.

PS - a curio, "Tendzin" is the person from whom I read that quote from Charan above, several years ago as I must have missed the significance of the quote when I read it as a young teenager......

OM!

[gurusintheraw]

I think the problem that Manjit hits on the nail is that the guru is himself a product of the biases and prejudices of his own time and culture. It is a sad testimony about the state of psychology in the United States that for years "The American Psychiatric Association listed homosexuality in the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" (DSM-I)." Today, of course, we see homosexuality in a much different light. One wishes that enlightened gurus could stand outside of their own time, their own cultural blindspots. But they tend not to, and thus we realize once again the very limitations that these gurus have and which we yearn to transcend. The Beas gurus are human beings and the secret is for them to confess to that obviousness and then the followers could pick out the good stuff, criticize the mistakes, and there are can be a mutual exploration of the interior search for higher consciousness. The perfect guru concept needs to be burned on the funeral pyre. It will liberate both the guru (instead of holding court with fakery) and the disciple from unduly transmitting powers on such beings that don't have any.

[manjit]

@gurusintheraw - very insightful & important points imo (of course! :)

Cheers.

[um]

@ Gurusintheraw

There are followers of gurus, that belong to the anti-vaccers movement.

If the hear that their teacher has himself vaccinated, the conclude he must be fake .... hahahaha

In older Tibetan texts on meditation one can find many a hint and advise that most doctors would not consider as healthy .... the explain the use of meat and even the use of drugs in relation to "cure"the bodily effects of advanced meditation.

All advises that are given in whatever school are never related to culture society or scuence but to the advancement of meditation.

Meditation is an activity with psychosomatic consequences.

That said you are free to do whatever suits you. You are even free to use their point of view as an excuse to turn you back upon them.

It is your life.

[Manoj]

@ UM

I bet its a full-time job trying to cover up Gurinder Singh Dhillions tracks. Running around like a headless chicken getting absolutely nowhere. Maybe if Gurinder he held back on his frivolous goon antics life would be so much easier for you, until then keep on trekking son.
In the name of Seva

There's parsad at the end of the tunnel, oh and Darshan too.

Lucky lad, lap it all up. All that hard work was well worth it

LoL :)

[Tendzin]

@Manjit

When are you going to listen to reason? It's so obvious that Donald Trump is the 2nd coming of Christ.

Just kidding. And so to explain further, I only support Trump as I support (or criticize) Charan or Gurinder. That is, I feel each of these persons is a mixed bag, as are well all.

Do I support some of the platform positions Trump ran on? Low taxes, border security, and avoidance of unnecessary wars? Sure do. Did I object to the 4 years of Russia collusion speculation (in which I was ultimately correct about?) Yes. Those are some of the ways I favored Trump, but to be honest the key reason was that I hate censorship and cancel culture more than anything else in our sick society. Hence I rooted for Trump against those who sought to nullify a fair election of the 45th president and vilify as a fascist anyone who supported him.

By the same token, I wholly object to what Trump did in the last election's aftermath.

And so, bigoted though I may be, I prefer to examine gurus by both their faults and virtues, as I see them.

On some points, many actually, I am very much a fan of Charan Singh. In some ways he was one of the most ethical gurus of the modern age.

But the same holds true for Gurinder Singh. Frankly, I hardly see much difference at all between these two gurus in their commitment and good works.

However, I see a HUGE difference in how RSSB satsangis (online ones anyway) view Charan vs. Gurinder. I feel there's some weird stuff going on with how they somehow see Charan as a saint but Gurinder as the worst guru to come down the pike.

All these issues have their nuance. Dare I say homosexuality does as well. Maybe I'll write on that later, when the topic du jour turns to something besides Alan Watts.

PS: I always enjoy your posts Manjit, have so for years.

[um]

@ Manoj

There are those who are able to make their own decisions in life and others that need a scape goat to make the same decision; people that always lean on others as they cannot stand on their own legs.

You have nothing to contribute of yourself, as a parrot you reap here day in day out what all of us know long before you did.

You are nobody without Gurinder , if you cannot blame him you have nothing to say.

[Joe]

@Armada

Quite a long list of exposes you have there. Seen some reports on most but never seen anything on your claim "Pedophile Court case Spain". Have you any links or evidence?

[Dungeness]

@ Manjit [ I just happen to think (and, indeed, experienced) an "all merciful God", who "loves unconditionally" and is beyond the realm of karma and judgement, etc, probably doesn't want people to humiliate and degenerate others for the way they were born, but hey ho, to each their own culturally bigoted, biased, judgemental God who hates fags.........but beware such a judgemental God doesn't turn on you and your Gurus ]

I remember feeling uneasy on reading Charan's letter back in the 70's. But,
hopefully without sounding apologist, I suspect Charan was judgmental re:
sexuality, especially outside societally lawful marriage and "proper limits", is
because it diminishes our attention. Whether it was deemed "unnatural" a
generation ago or not, within marriage or not, sex drains energy and attention
from a mystic's inward goal of "going within". The "humiliation/degeneracy"
remarks were not aimed at anyone's self-worth but just as a reminder of our
precious attention and its ideal role of raising our consciousness upward.

[Armada]

@Joe

I didn’t write that. I was asking about it. See again.

[Tendzin]

I confess didn't read the last few paragraphs of this essay, where the author implies that the current POTUS and VP led exemplary lives of public service, devoid of any shenanigans. Goes hand in glove with what I've written about how we treat Charan vs. Gurinder.

[Manoj]

The whole lineage of this Radha Soami Cult right from the beginning of time, with the founder Baba Jaimal Singh who started this Nasty Cult was well known for his very low and shallow intentions.

He was a well known Womaniser with 2 women at a time who use to stay with him at his home, eventually he was thrown out by the Agra Radha Soami where he use to go and listen to Satsang because of his dirty moral grounds. This religious extremist cult is something that one shouldn't even think of following in his right mind.

The path of the deciteful masters ends up straight in hell.

As Gurinder Singh Dhillion takes the lead now, he's shown the world what was hidden all time.

Deceptive Dhillion follows in Jaimals footsteps with the same dirty intentions in mind now...

[Uchit]

Don't forget, the 5 holy names are the words of the devil. The first name means the light of the devil.

The pornstar guru , gurinder , has said in his satsangs many times, what you repeat in your mind comes forward in your mind. He goes on to say you say apple , and a picture of an apple appears. So by this logic if you repeat the names of kaal (satan) , he will appear before you. Be careful sangat

[Dungeness]

@Uchit [So by this logic if you repeat the names of kaal (satan) , he will appear before you. Be careful sangat.]

They say anything you're obsessed with will appear before
you too. I'd be cautious with your curses!

[Natasha]

I have RS friends in India that say the lower caste members of RS say that GSD only meets with rich people. He only appoints rich people from higher castes to positions of authority. This is common knowledge of the lower caste members of RS who do seva at the Dera. Their kids get denied admission to the Dera school but no one will admit to that. And they don’t get the same level of care that higher caste RS sevadars or westerners get.

They say the only reason the officials protect GSD from legal troubles is in order to get the votes from his followers. This is common knowledge in the Punjab. Westerners are so naive with what they believe about the guru.

The caste system is alive and well at the Dera.

[Natasha]

And many of them believe his wife was murdered to keep him and his sons from going to prison. In the Punjab this is very common behavior from powerful people. They have also little respect for women.

[Natasha]

Westerners can’t speak to the kind of person GSD is because they don’t know the Punjabi culture. They don’t know how he behaves in Punjab and with officials. They don’t spend anytime with him and don’t know him on a personal basis. They only know what they are told by high caste members of RS. If Americans lived among the poor people in Punjab they would understand what he is really like and they would know what people think of him here. He just another powerful guru who says what people want to hear but does only what is in benefit for him. This is very common with gurus. I don’t understand how westerners can serve someone they don’t know. And they don’t know him at all.

[Kk]

I have RS friends in India that say the lower caste members of RS say that GSD only meets with rich people. He only appoints rich people from higher castes to positions of authority. This is common knowledge of the lower caste members of RS who do seva at the Dera. Their kids get denied admission to the Dera school but no one will admit to that. And they don’t get the same level of care that higher caste RS sevadars or westerners get.

They say the only reason the officials protect GSD from legal troubles is in order to get the votes from his followers. This is common knowledge in the Punjab. Westerners are so naive with what they believe about the guru.

The caste system is alive and well at the Dera.

Posted by: Natasha | January 15, 2022 at 04:41 AM

Natasha you are very true on above u said or watelse u heard from ur indian frn

[Kk]

Baba g the great never ever allow any person to click his picture but that's rule is implied for only satsangi's or poor people but for powerful people baba g the great allows to click his picture with happy face..

Like wise india has two law one for ordinary people and one for special people , baba g follows the same .

That's the link for baba g picture with chief minister of punjab with his family

https://www.punjabnewsexpress.com/punjab/news/dera-beas-chief-baba-gurinder-singh-dhillon-calls-on-punjab-cm-channi-156347

[um]

@ Natasha / KK

Nasha, the facts as you report them are correct and well formulated but than the questions arises as to what meaning and what value we attribute to these facts.

You are also correct in stating that those from other cultures have little or no understanding of cultural and social wauys of doing.

It is also correct what you have to say about the casts and who are to be found in the management.

But is that not a fact we can wittness all over the world?!
Are not all organisations, governmental bodies, etc manage by highly educated people and/or those belonging to the upper classes of the different countries??

As an example, what to think of England. Is there any country in Europe that is more structured and divided along the lines of lower , middle, upper and nobility classes??!
Or France.

You are right that the majority of the followers of Guru's in India belong to lower castes but what to say of the followers in the west?

An in those western countries with larger groups of Indian followers, although that is mostly an taboo issue to talk about, I came to understand that many of them were of Dalit backgrounds. And surprise surprise who are their local "leaders"cq jathedars? Well that are those that have become millionaires in this or that western country.

I just bought some raw milk from a farmer. If I leave it for a day in the frifge the
cream" will come on top of the milk .... that is a natural proces ... and ... that is what we see in society also, those who have the means, the capacity and the training to manage an organisation or an body of people, will manage.

So the facts as you stated them are correct but it matters what meaning and value one ATTRIBUTES to them ... these facts have, by themselves NO MEANING OR VALUE AT ALL ... we GIVE IT to them ... we can do that possitive, negative, neutral or not at all.

[umami]

"One theory: I think many initiates look at these two gurus as Dad and Step Dad."

Tendzin,

Here's my conclusion. Gurinder is beside the point for us Charan initiates. He should be no more important to us than any guy in the crowd.

All the scrutiny we give GSD is dhyan by another name. Dhyan in Sant Mat is reserved for the guru who gave us initiation. Gurinder's gestalt is for his own initiates to ponder, not ours.

We old timers are at liberty to hear what he has to say or have a chuckle and shrug our shoulders, whichever suits us. Beyond that we needn't invest.

[um]

@ Natasha

And after some thinking, honesty demands to say, that the birth and growth of all so called mysical schools in the west, was pay by, orgianised, made possible by well to do, highly educated people.

Not a dime was asked from other people, it was all payed uout of their own pockets, for many years at a strech.

Without them, the wealthy, the well educated etc, spirituality in all is form would have not be born and flourished in the west.

In the west following a guru, being involved with spirituality, in whatever form, is more or less restricted to the middle and upper classes.

Rank, talent, money, education by itself is meaningless, it all depends how it is used.

Although I left this path behind many years ago, for my own personal reasons, honesty demands to say that those who started it here in Europe did invest very, very much from themselves, for free without demanding anything in return, to make it possible for others to take part.

[Manoj]

Gurinder Singh Dhillion is nothing but a lying little donkey whos talks out his Ass all the time.

Everything he does is a contradiction.
His real actions paint a lovely Dollar loving picture

Even the Sangat live a very contradictional life.

And try to be like him, you even got the Gurinder impersonators with they're full fledged beards and glasses. Who in they're right mind would want to look like him LOL

Much of the Sangat follow in the steps of Guilty Gurinder as its common knowledge that they too are bent on doing tax fraud, land fraudalent and other criminal activities.

Nothing new here

This path has nothing at all to do with self improvement and God enlightenment.

But more to do we power and greed and God would never partake in anything like this.

Discriminating against the lower caste and rubbing shoulders with the high n mighty pathetically Gurinder ideology a little man full of wordly desires, still. Ego, power, greed ridden Dhillion

Gurinder himself is a Paatala not even a real Singh himself, he has no right to teach racism in the Indian caste system.

Dont be fooled by all the bells n whistles and get out whilst you still can or loose your soul to kaal (Satan) who values your soul even more than you do.

Wake up Wake up before its too late...Satan is Spreading his word through Saints like Gurinder Satan Singh Dhillion

Heres wishing you all the best

[um]

@ Manoy

LP's with a damaged grove let the gramophone arm hang in that grove, that does not add to the pleasure of listening to the music.

Your writings are more or less the same.

We all know you can not stand him, your repetitions will not alter a thing, for nobody
Years ago I would say you are pissing against the wind and your feet get wet and stinky.
These days I am more moderate ... hahaha

Have fun and enjoy your own misery.

And you are certainly nobody for the Sikh community to be proud of. We know the Sikh community for its tolerance towards any other belief,

[um]

@ Umami

You reaction made me smile.

The attitude you described, gives also the freedom to look at him and listen to what and how he has to say as it pleases one. Often he makes me laugh, as his "jokes" and use of language is funny to me.

If I had to do things over in this period of time, I would certainly not have asked for initiation, because much of what I see and hear, is definitely not my cup of tea.

That said, my likings do not and cannot say a word about the value of what I see and hear, it tells only something about me.

But ... My likings are my compass to decide by.

So In a sense I was lucky to be around in the days of the previous guru.
It have been good days and I took from it many good memories and a lot of understandings about human affairs, thinking etc not to forget the many, many people I came to speak, work with, in those days. all people that I would otherwise never have encountered. To all I owe much gratitude.

[Uchit]

The Definition of Gurinder Singh Dhillon:
a narcissists,
a liar,
a hypocrite
a heartless soul
Has a superiority complex
an over inflated ego
Has no remorse
Is a control freak
a womaniser
A pretender
A sick old man
An over inflated ego and opinion of self
Money is his god
Satan's child ....etc

[um]

@ Uchit

GSD is what he is
hardly what he appears to be
let alone how he is made to be seen by others like you

You see Uchit what you write does tell the reader NOTHING about GSD but everything about you and your religious background.

Whatever one repeats, has a psycho-somatic, consequences.
Dungeness is right when he warns you for your hate speech.

[Kk]

@ Manoj and uchit
Both of you are right
Mr . Um I suppose u r nobody's else but baba g himself . Mr. Um ,You posted Miles long post with great philosophy but couldn't clear what was ur central of idea.

[um]

@ KK
>>Mr . Um I suppose u r nobody's else but baba g himself . Mr. Um ,You posted Miles long post with great philosophy but couldn't clear what was ur central of idea.<<

Hahaha,.... you are funny... but no I am not, .... but I must admit that his way of dealing with people in the Q&A makes me laugh. It is not what he says but how.

He and his uncle have a certain natural strategy in answering questions and it has been very informative over the years in understanding some in and outs about the working of the human mind and understang the concerns of those that come forward to ask questions.

To give a hint ...replace them in your mind by other people you know and ask yourself what and how would they answer if they would be sitting there. Just look at them as human beings ... hahaha

In the end there is much more to learn from them about psychology and other human studies of the mind and behavior than religious or spiritual .... at least that is so the case for me.

Not only from them but also their followers. In the years I was still actively involved in the affairs of the community, I also came to converse with so many people from so different walks of life i would otherwise never have encountered.

Now, after leaving it all behind, soon after 1990, I am mentally rumination whatever I ingested in that period and digest it. The fact that I am no longer involved is, i must say, a great help.

Without these ties and the emotions and thoughts that are by necessity the consequences of these ties, i am mentally free to look at it it from a distance and ALSO the opportunity to research myself. To ponder about questions the like of: "why did I ask for initiation? What were my intentions? What my goals etc etc. just to name some.
That research as also helped me to get a better understanding of the human mind ... and after all I am not a crow.

So KK scientist are still researching the one and only law that encapsulates all other laws and so am i researching an all encompassing Idea of what it is to be human.

I am sorry that I have nothing to offer, no opinion on santmat, their teachers, myself or anything else.

[um]

@ KK

Oh ... and I forget to mention the people here in this blog and express my gratitude.

Piano's are not only played by skilled musicians, but the sound the piano produces, depends also on the wooden sounding board, hidden deep inside the piano.

That sound produced by the different writers here, alone or together, resonates in me and is useful in understanding many things about humanity, myself and others writing here.

We have a saying that the tone makes the music ... spirituality, just to give it a name, is after all just an human activity as any other.

[um]

And Finaly KK ....

With greater distance and less emotional involvement with the ties that binds one to a situation,to persons and,organisations etc etc, things do appear differently ... that is for sure.

The question does arise, and is related to what Brian wrote about the role of language as to whether it is possible to live a human life without emotionally bound to a game or a drama, realizing one is just an actor.

Who knows if I will be able to figure that out drinking coffee

[Kk]

Mr. Um , you are right and It is a good argument that engaging with spiritual or religious drama is a good excuse to live a console life.

[umami]

"You reaction made me smile."

Thanks, um. Maybe some of you rubbed off on me. The many voices here are like "healing" oils "vibrating" at different "frequencies."

[um]

@ Umami

Reading and writing here has made me understand that nobody here can drink tea for me let alone taste it... for that I am very grateful.

And answering people does arise in me, to use your words, different vibrations are smell of flowers but they certainly do not all have the smell of roses and some do smell different when I come closer. ... hahaha.

Sometimes it feels as if they are standing nexct to me. and as I do not like "ghosts" around I often delete what I wrote and the day will come that I will no longer react or even read here. I am reading the last pages of the book.

[JW]

Wow @Manjit - thank you for sharing that excerpt about what Charan Singh had to say about homosexuality. Shocking.

[umami]

More shocking to me was that Charan brought "society" into it, since so many of us went against society by embracing the exotic foreign cult of Sant Mat! Some would say demonic! Some would say satanic! My parents wept when I became a vegetarian for some guru!

It's true what Dungeness said about "precious attention." They all declare that Nam and Kam cannot coexist, and heterosexuality is no free pass.

Sawan: "The world is the design of Kal and Maya, the negative forces. To keep the soul down, they based the structure of the world on couples, man and woman."

Jagat: "Lust pulls us down to the animal plane. Those given to sensual pleasures severely undermine their health and repent their follies afterwards." "As a man slips down from a snowy peak, so does a lustful thought pull down a devotee."

Not very modern, but there you go.

I can't resist, here's another Jagat nugget, because I love the word selection and semicolons. "Pride or egotism is a malignant kind of selfishness and is the most sturdy and masterful of the baneful five. It has also the greatest longevity. It is the last to surrender. Its fundamental assumption is its own infallibility. Thus lust degrades and disgraces; anger consumes and destroys; greed hardens and petrifies; attachment seduces and procrastinates; and egotism distorts and deceives."

The highest moral starch!

[manjit]

Hi Tendzin - thanks for your kind and thoughtful reply! As has long been the case, I not only find myself in general agreement with your insights, but also consider them to be rarely or infrequently stated, hence always a valuable contribution. I think that is perhaps the reason why I was somewhat surprised and dismayed at your relatively illogical and often disconnected from facts allegiance to & defense of Trump - which of course does not detract from similar behavior in defense of Biden, for eg. as you hint at. Even more so dismaying for me personally is the "lack-of-heart", compassion, tolerance, empathy etc in his and his fans world-view. But this is not the place for such a discussion. I suppose this would be a good place to point out - in reply to your generous reply - that despite all of that, I read on my phone a post of yours a few months back which I found to be one of the genuinely most beautiful and uplifting comments I've ever read here. To be honest, I found it to be in start contrast to your defense of Trump and his world-view......so a few days later when at home on the PC I tried to locate the comment to show my appreciation & surprise, but was unable to locate it; perhaps I imagined it ;) It would be great to hear about your apparently new-found appreciation of Christianity, but perhaps this is not the right place for it.....

Hi Dungeness - You wrote: "I remember feeling uneasy on reading Charan's letter back in the 70's. But, hopefully without sounding apologist......"

Dungeness, you appear to me to be a thoroughly decent human being (despite your religious affiliations which deaden the soul :), hence why you had this "uneasy feeling" with this abhorrent, judgemental and ignorant comment.

But, alas, your reply beyond that is indeed that of an "apologist" and very, very clearly so and with no ambiguity whatsoever. Your defence of Charan here is identical to what another RSSB apologist wrote when this was first highlighted by Tendzin on the RSS forum - but the problem is, it is clear you are spinning this way and that to lessen the lack of compassion, wisdom, insight, intelligence etc of this comment, and in no way or level whatsoever are connected to truth, reality, integrity or authenticity.....it is apologism pure and simple.

Your attempt to make Charan's clear and unambiguous reference to specifically homosexuality as "humiliating" and "degenerate" as some sort of general criticism of sexuality is profoundly disingenuous. There never has been and never will be an example of RS guru's describing heterosexuality as "humiliating" or "degenerate". There is nothing "unnatural" either about heterosexuality OR homosexuality, but it is abundantly clear that Charan has never and would never use these profoundly judgmental terms about heterosexuality.

It is pure unadulterated self-delusion to believe or suggest otherwise, and that would be abundantly clear to anyone with a modicum of impartiality or objectivity, and hasn't invested decades of their life to this religious belief system and lineage of family-patriarchal-pretend-mystics.

Hi JW - yes, indeed - profoundly shocking! About as close to an object indicator of their lack of wisdom and insight, and lack of genuinely transcendent "spirituality". If one were to truly understand the significance of it, this is more damning even than Gurinder's obscene greed and lack of scruples! Love, compassion, empathy, tolerance, wisdom, insight etc go right to the heart of spirituality, and here Charan demonstrates a profound lack of it.

Hi Umami! - you wrote "Here's my conclusion. Gurinder is beside the point for us Charan initiates. He should be no more important to us than any guy in the crowd.
All the scrutiny we give GSD is dhyan by another name. Dhyan in Sant Mat is reserved for the guru who gave us initiation. Gurinder's gestalt is for his own initiates to ponder, not ours.
We old timers are at liberty to hear what he has to say or have a chuckle and shrug our shoulders, whichever suits us. Beyond that we needn't invest."

Are you sure you have understood the spiritual path Umami? ;) Both Gurinder AND Charan's behavior is "besides the point". The only real point is, have you verified the concepts and dogma of your faith, as learnt from Charan Singh? Have you verified that chaurasi, satgurus, panch shabd, sach khand etc etc are all true and without any shadow of a doubt, or inner delusion?

You appear to be playing a lose-lose game where all you do is hear and observe how these "Godmen" behave, and shrug shoulders or chuckle at "other" gurus (even when chosen by one's own "infallible" guru). Yes, this is religious belief 101. My guru wasn't caught with his pants down, or taken to the highest court in the land for fraud on a staggering scale, therefore I can rest easily in the religious belief he may well be a "Godman" (the standards we apply are really very, very low!)

You also wrote: "It's true what Dungeness said about "precious attention." They all declare that Nam and Kam cannot coexist, and heterosexuality is no free pass."

Can you please cite a single response of Charan's to a heterosexual person telling them their sexuality is "humiliating", "degenerating", "unnatural", "improper" etc? Again, you appear to not be thinking with coherency, integrity etc, and instead thinking like a religious apologist. Such apologism is usually profoundly obvious to anyone who is not heavily invested......and your inaccurate and misleading re-framing of Charan's clear, transparent & explicit homophobia as some sort of universal criticism of sexuality is more amusing than insightful, and revealing of your biases and blindspots! It is extremely obvious this is so.

Y'all may not find it very important, but the wiser, more compassionate souls out there may immediately recognise the absurdity of calling these oftentimes petty and mundane, culturally bound men "Perfect Living Masters".

Shalom!

[umami]

Manjit,

Q&A with Woody Allen.
Q: "Do you think that sex is dirty?"
A: "It is, if you're doing it right."

Tell me heterosexuality isn't disgusting, except our biases blind us.

[manjit]

"Tell me heterosexuality isn't disgusting, except our biases blind us."

UMAMI! Tell me where Charan called heterosexuaity "humiliating", "degenerating", "unnatural", "improper" etc

As for MY labelling of any kind of sexuality with ANY labels, who cares and what does that have to do with anything?

I'm discussing Charan's explicitly and unambiguously homophobic, judgemental, ignorant, lacking in wisdom, compassion (etc etc etc) comments and HE clearly isn't referring to heterosexuality or sexuality in general - perhaps you're not interested in Charan and his statement, but my views?

Well, my view is, perhaps best not to use Woody Allen's descriptors of sex and sexuality to make a point, ey? Yeah, sometimes sex can be "disgusting"..........

;)

[um]

@ Manjit

All people that have raised children and had to feed them, know that from the onset of their lives, the only valid criterium for eating or refusing it, is whether it is tasty or not, whether it pleases them or not.

Only later by education and growing up having experiences and understandings of their own they learn that not all what is tasty is also healthy.

Some have difficult to leave that stadium behind and love to portray those that have something to say about their style of living as mentally deformed.

[umami]

Hey, Manjit.

Q&A with swami umami.

Q: "Tell me where Charan called heterosexuaity 'humiliating', 'degenerating', 'unnatural', 'improper' etc"

A: He didn't have to. Then as now, girls and women put up with that everywhere from all sides.
We aren't talking free love here. 1) There's that vow against sex outside of marriage. 2) Even then Charan said that it wasn't a license to indulge in anything and everything. 3) He also characterized marriage as only a karmic relationship, upsetting many. I was too young for initiation and wondered, "Who can stand to live like that? The inner guidance must be so powerful!"
In spite of what Charan said about homosexuality, I knew two gay satsangis in the early 1980's, one closeted and the other flamboyant.

Q: "Have you verified that chaurasi, satgurus, panch shabd, sach khand etc etc are all true and without any shadow of a doubt, or inner delusion?"

A: No, but thanks to hallucinogens I was no longer at home on planet Earth.

Q: "You appear to be playing a lose-lose game where all you do is hear and observe how these 'Godmen' behave, and shrug shoulders or chuckle at 'other' gurus (even when chosen by one's own 'infallible' guru)."

A: It's a win for the tobacco and cheese industries.

Q: "Well, my view is, perhaps best not to use Woody Allen's descriptors of sex and sexuality to make a point, ey?"

A: I struggled with that until God reminded me that Michael Jackson still gets airplay. Go figure.

Shalom.