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October 10, 2021


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Christian thieves have rules for mankind but in Rajneesh puram Oregon Osho made rules for them.


Before the Big Bang.

"Behold the might of the new song! It has made men out of stones, men out of beasts. Those, moreover, that were as dead, not being partakers of the true life, have come to life again,
simply by becoming listeners to this song."
From Exhortation to the Heathen by Clement of Alexandria

NY NY sounds

How comes Sach Khand so full
Because of those sing and play for the Almighty


Nothing is more important than That
This is what Angels hope for

When anyone says "I've been on this path for forty years" or "I've been on this path for sixty years" give them respect for their efforts, but don't believe what they say.

Forty years, even a hundred years or more could just be the same year repeated forty or even one hundred times, without further progress.

With progress, a few days is sufficient.
Even a single moment.

@ AR

You ask me 2 questions:

[1] is a spiritual endeavor a private and introspective affair.

Techniques are superfluous and only what unfolds spontaneity matters.
I did not suggest or write anything to that extent.

If you want to sit as the japanese sit, you have to learn it from them.

The question is however,WHY do you want to sit as a Japanese in the first place..
How did that desire came into your mind.?

These are questions that are related to the keys IN the house.

ZA-ZEN is just an example.
Your mind is quite capable of refining that goal more abstract.

Is practising ZA-ZEN the expression of living a natural life in a natural way or living a natural life in a cultural way?

And about the "spontaneausness" ... only if there is hunger, it is natural to address it and find food.. Going out to a restaurant without being hungry, is that spontaneous?

If a person has inner experiences he has to address them.
If a person has and so called ...pull from within ... he has to address it.

Is the quest natural or cultural born ... that is what matters.
To know if it is natural, one has to undo the cultural attraction.

The difference between me and you is that you go on and on to discuss what is on the daily spiritual TV, and comment it as a rationalist and when I woke up that interest did disappear out of me completely.

Imagine yourself waking up in the cinema. For a couple of dollars you can even do the experiment. Set the vibrating call of your cell phone on the time in the middle of the video and see what happens. How you feel in the midst of people fixed at what is going on on the screen and a movie that disappeared out of your hands.

They are all fixed at what is there OUTSIDE themselves, and yes, the movie can also be about spirituality.

Time for coffee.

"Techniques are superfluous and only what unfolds spontaneity matters.
I did not suggest or write anything to that extent."

..........Oh, ok. I think I misunderstood what you were saying, in that case.


"If you want to sit as the japanese sit, you have to learn it from them.

The question is however,WHY do you want to sit as a Japanese in the first place..
How did that desire came into your mind.?"

..........This is kind of what I was talking about, in the first comment I addressed to you today. I take your point that we're using zazen only as an example, and as representative of all of mystic/spiritual endeavor. And using "zazen" in that sense, let me rephrase the thoughts I'd expressed in that comment:

No, I have no interest in zazen per se. No, I have no desire to sit as the Japanese sit. Here's why I'm interested in zazen at all, in the first place: I've heard it said that there is a certain ...potential, within us humans, for ...something, beyond the mundane everyday experience. I do not know if that is true, but if it is true, I'd like to sample it, and perhaps, if the sample appeals to me, to internalize it. In order to do that, I need to first approach zazen, and test it to see if it make sense rationally; and further, and provided it passes that first test, to test it experientially as well. Now what I'm after is not the cultural part of it; so that if zazen is something that only the Japanese can properly do, then that's by definition a uniquely cultural phenomenon, that in any case isn't my primary interest at all, and I'm happy to leave it be.

If, and only if, there is something within zazen that is accessible to all of us, independent of the cultural mumbo jumbo, then I'm interested in sampling it, and seeing for myself if there's anything to it.

Sounds straightforward to me.


"Imagine yourself waking up in the cinema. For a couple of dollars you can even do the experiment. Set the vibrating call of your cell phone on the time in the middle of the video and see what happens. How you feel in the midst of people fixed at what is going on on the screen and a movie that disappeared out of your hands.

They are all fixed at what is there OUTSIDE themselves, and yes, the movie can also be about spirituality."

.......Hm. Okay, at one level I can empathize. I might use the analogy of a dream instead. You're running on full tilt within your dream, busy doing whatever it is you're doing. And then suddenly you catch yourself, wondering, what on earth am I doing this FOR? And, at that point, turn within, instead of without.

If that is what you're going for, then I understand, and can empathize.

But surely that's just the starting point? The point where one starts one's quest to find out what the point of all of this is (and if there's any point to it at all).

You seem to see this as the end to all effort at understanding, where I would think of something like that as the point where one seriously begins one's quest to understand, and maybe in the process starts leaving behind the things that one had unthinkingly, and frenetically, been involved in thus far.

Do I read you correctly, or am I misinterpreting your account of the cinema thing?

@ AR

Hahaha .. that sounds straightforwards ... you wrote.
Of course it does.

That is one of the " the market options" ... being on the "market" there are many promoting loud out their ware.... but ... BEFORE ... you went to the market, you had never heard of these promoters of ....XXXXX.

And as far as the second part is concerned.

Waking up is not an goal, it is not an end ... well it is an end of being engrossed in the movie ...it is an condition to deal with; a condition that was unasked for and certainly not something for others to look for ... hahahaha.

Try it AR, do the experiment. Go to an movie that otherwise would draw all your attention to the screen and wake your self up as I said .... then you will understand what I mean. and it will offer an answer to all your questions you put before me..

There is nothing to be understood in what I wrote ... you get it or you don't.

I have heard it said, you wrote. ​.... is hearsay ... it starts elsewhere .. in the street where the light is. You came there because you made yourself believe that THAT LIGHT OUTSIDE would help you. You listened to what others told were the gold is to be found and you want them to prove it to you that it CAN be found.

But it all started out with you. If you had never done so, you would never have known about gold etc etc.

I do not say or suggest that people should not go to the market of life, let alone suggesting what they should and should not do there, it is up to them.

It is all about inner motives and nothing else.

@ AR
I will do my best to put my answers here in the future as to not provoke you to make again a point of order.

Besides appreciative you are as a rationalist also a critical reader.
So it might be interesting to read the last topic on the thoughts of U.G. Krishnamurti.

After reading it, I did some reading on him, his life and what he was saying., starting in WIKIPEDIA and seeing some short video's on YOUTUBE. It brought me many a burst of laughter as his reactions to people in some of his videos are extremely funny when he vents his frustration an anger towards the people that ask questions.

Seeing some of his visitors, I felt sorry for them., but on the other hand if one has such an worldview, you must be out of your mind to engage with a character like U.G.K.

In the article that was put here he goes on to say about guru's:

>> Still, he does not want to retire. He must be thrown out.<<

This is so funny.
It made me laugh heartily ....
But I I do not know why ... hahaha
It is realy hilarious
He is so frustrated about something, that his mouth says things he doesn't realy mean, just to vent his frustration ... these reactions are random created. It is like a painter, that throws an pot of paint on the canvas because some one asked ..What are you paiting" ...hahaha

Any way .. if you give it a little time, you might find there many things that resemble what I wrote in answer to your questions, but formulated in an different way, by another person and for other motives.


Before I was retiring an anecdote in the book of Paul Reps came to mind. In English it is number 67 of "Zen flesh, Zen Bones".

It relates of an old Zen master that wants to transfer his role to his successor,, handing over an book containing his teachings and those of his seven predecessors. His successor to be, first says that he doesn't need the book, as he came to learn Zen from his teacher experimental. On insisting he takes the book and throws it directly in the fire of the stove. Upon which the old master becomes extremely angry and shouts the famous words "What are you doing" and his successor to be shouts back "What are you saying".

A.r. the people that come to visit U.G. K. have all a precious book in their minds and want to discuss it with him what he refuses. ...and ....not only that, but he also tells them that it is worthless to be discussed.

In that atmosphere, tense atmosphere, the Q&A are held, what makes many funny moments. One can almost hear these people grind their teeth, how such an unpolite being can have the guts to behave in such an way and speak so denigrating about what is so near and dear to them. They do whatever they can to argue and change his mind. To no avail .

What they do not understand is that he has nothing to say. There is no [deep] meaning in his words. He only goes on to see that he is not interested in what they are interested in and that is shocking to them as their whole life is invested in these thoughts, these ideas, these worldviews.

Did he say there is something wrong with their views .. no .. not at all and if they are happy with it, well what is there to say? ... but .. they should not ask him and certainly not try to have him interested, in what he considers theirs.

So if you like it is pure Zen, the onion peeled.

"it is an condition to deal with; a condition that was unasked for and certainly not something for others to look for ... hahahaha.", on the one hand.

And "Try it AR, do the experiment. ", on the other.

Irony much, um?!

[Sorry, saw that low-hanging ...well, leg, dangling tantalizingly close, and couldn't resist giving it a pull. Just kidding! Ha ha ha, if I may plagiarize from you! :---) ]


On a more serious vein, that was a cool experiment actually, um, and easily performed. I did perform it. Albeit at home, because I haven't started visiting cinema halls yet, and don't intend to until this Covid thing blows over. No, nothing remotely spiritual, what I tried this out on is an episode of Game of Thrones (I'm in the process of catching up on past series and episodes, and enjoying it too). And, while the result was nowhere as dramatic or as lasting as it was with you, I think I better appreciate now where you're coming from. Yep, it was a cool experiment.

The frame of mind that the experiment nudged one towards, it reminded me of something I'd read in the Mandukya Upanishad. It talks of two birds, sitting side by side on the branch of a tree: one keeps singing, and flying around, and engaging with the world; and the other simply sits and watches, observes. Sufi practices also capture this, with their emphasis on "witnessing" --- there's a lovely word in Arabic, "shaahid", that captures that exact nuance of uninvolved witnessing. (And of course, the big daddy of them all, Buddhistic teachings I mean to say, is rife with practices that involve observing and witnessing.)

Question for you, um, if I may: As far as I'm concerned that experience was very fleeting, merely a glimpse, that helped me better understand, at a first-hand level, what you're talking about; but given that the effects seem to have been more lasting with you, I was wondering: How on earth do you motivate yourself, from that perspective that is so ...removed from the hurly burly of the world, to engage in such mundane everyday tasks as holding down a job, and engaging with the a hundred and one small but engaging/involving things that living in a family necessarily involves? Doesn't all of it appear entirely pointless, and to that extent not worth the price of admission (the effort and, more importantly, the involvement necessary to get them done, that is to say)?


As for UGK, absolutely, reading Brian's post today reminded me of you!! There are a great many things about UGK that I find iffy, and I'll post a comment about this under that post later on when I have time, but you're right, some of what he says does correspond directly with the kind of observations you make here.

Gurudom beckons, um!

(Again, just kidding! About that Gurudom, that is to say.)

@ A.R.

As far as the experiment goes ... I did not actual have that experience in a cinema it is just an way to allow somebody else to have an idea how it feels. The experiment is not meant to change something or somebody but to draw attention. Like some other experiment.... rub with the index and thumb of one hand the the surface of the soft tissue between the index and the thumb of the other hand ... you are aware of something but you cannot express it.

I did not become an observer by waking up, I already was from childhood on. When i reffer to the "waking up in the cinema" it is not at all about observing what is there around in the cinema, but about the disconnection inside, with what was outside on the screen.

And your question about the consequences for everyday activities. What to say? Whatever I do I also have to bear the consequences.

We are alive, that is all.

Being alive is a gift. The use of the word "gift" doesn't mean to say there is a giver but to state that it is unknown as to how it came to be, being alive.

It is up to each an every being to make use of that fact as he deems fit , given the circumstances he happens to be in, in every given moment of time.. actually he is not free to do otherwise.

Point and pointless are ...attributions. One can do so but at ones own cost

Only on a need to know basis

@ Manjit

While doing some monotonous little work, my mind was ruminating about the things you wrote to day, the thought arose to write about "his uncle" and what someone in the close circle of the family, active in spiritual matters, often puts before me in terms of how lucky I was in having had such an close encounter with him.

But these things are better no enclosed here, if only for the privacy of that member of the family.

But i can take an side rode to arrive at the same goal here.

Often I have told here my version of the tale of Jamun and Laila. It doesn't matter if this version is in anyway correct, it serves the suppose of conveying information that otherwise cannot be said.

When Jamun says to his friends, friends, that are all driven by good intentions in putting arguments before him NOT to engage with, you should see her through my eyes, he discloses something that is otherwise kind of a secret or a thing easily unnoticed.

It is not about her, not about the valid arguments of his friends but about him and something that is in him. He explains there without saying that she is not drawing something out of him and what comes out of him is only directed to her ... she might even be unaware of it and there is nothing she can do to make it appear.

People that are seeking in the guru, his teachings, for a something that can move them, they will find an empty box and might even come to hate him for his behavior.

His friends all spoke for "deserving" and the reasons, all reasons pertaining to social cultural values of wealth in this field or that field.... she was missing all and even underscoring .. so "deserving" the contempt of the whole village.

HE, majun, he was the ....GIVER.

Some people have more to give than others, some have no mental barriers to give ...

With some trouble you might be able to trace the "Anmol Bachan" written by Garibdas Ji of Rohila Delhi ... there are many insights to be found not to be spoken of elsewhere. There is an provisional translation around in English but not easy to be found.

There is the teacher and the teaching [laila] and there is the disciple, seeker, student [Majnun] ... each have their own role.

Hi Um,

Thanks for your thoughts. You have shared this metaphor of Laila and Majnun several times before - it is a beautiful tale, and I hear what you are saying; of course we are all unique and both bring and have different motivations, desires, needs, wants etc, which shapes how we view the world. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Re. Anmol Bachan - I think you mentioned this to me in private quite a few years ago too. It would be nice to access the whole thing, but this is freely available online:


Regarding what you reference, this can be found: "64)

"Q. Why have the Saints advised the Sumiran
(repetitions) of Five Names, the concentration
on them and hearing their Word-Currents and
what fruits do those reap who practice Sumiran
and concentration by themselves without being
initiated by a Sadguru?

"A. The Destination will not be attained till one
does practice of Sumiran with love and pangs
of separation towards the Sadguru and His
Grace. The Satsangis (disciples of Sadguru) are
aided by the Five Gods in the same manner as
Sadguru does. So long as one is not a student or
a Satsangi of a Saint, but only practices
Sumiran and Bhajan of his own accord, and
enters into all actions as “good actions, thus, if
he has saved himself from evil deeds and
words, he will be entitled to meet a Sadguru
eventually." "

Intriguingly, this is almost identical to something Ishwar Puri says in this video that was just recently posted on the RSS forum:


I'm sorry, I don't see anything especially insightful about reality here, just more of the usual RS-Hindu upholding of the structures of power of patriarchal sect-leaders. Perhaps you are referring to other excerpts not here contained?

Re. the congratulations on the new job - thank you very kindly both (Um too!), that's very kind of you. Though it did make me giggle a bit; I was actually disappointed I didn't get to chill out and bash RS online for a few more weeks or even months! Plus, I rather like the sound of difficult and challenging circumstances, that sounds like fun actually.....Life is what life is, there really was nothing to be concerned about :)

Take care!

Sorry - PS, Um, re. UG - ahh, you may have a point. It has been 2 decades or so since I last read his stuff or saw his pics or videos or whatever. Not only have I changed, but memory is fallible too (I am left only with "what remained" :). Though if I do recall there were "scandals" relating to him which didn't paint him in too flattering a light? It is very possible I am getting things mistaken though? Anyway, yes, perhaps I should watch some of his pics or vids again, see if I feel differently - cheers!

@ Manjit

I did not suggest a particular Q&A and certainly not the one you posted here. The link you posted here is just a small fragment. I has some questions related to the consequence of "losing love".

The whole thing is only available in Hindi, if you can lay your hands on it. There is a English translation that covers probably most of the book, but that is not that easy to find.

As for the rest .. you are right, we all have to face our own life as it comes.


The woman in the video was only a physician's assistant in a community hospital, a small fish in a small pond. She was fired for defying the state vaccine mandate and has an axe to grind...
...Batavia is in a county where almost half the people are unvaccinated, so there's a culture.

Making something out of nothing can be profitable these days. She's already raised $73,742 for herself...

"Established in 1990, the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is a national early warning system to detect possible safety problems in U.S.-licensed vaccines. VAERS is co-managed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."

Healthcare providers are REQUIRED to report serious reactions to COVID-19 vaccination, including hospitalization...
...but anyone can report any symptom--the patient, patient's family, etc.

Individuals can also report symptoms by a phone app called V-safe. I went for a Pfizer booster (3rd dose) the other day and someone handed me a flyer.

For the record I was feverish the next two days (99.6°F/37.6°C) and quite achy the first of those, but I'm fine now. Covid, when I had it in March, was much worse.


Neurological effects...

Do I trust U.S. hospital administrators either? No. Not really. $$$

Actually, I wonder whether Spence could weigh in.

Spence, please, what's the buzz in hospitals over VAERS and Covid vaccine safety?

Hi Umami
The general concensus is that the vaccines are safe.
There are, even in the hospital, those who prefer not to take the vaccine and are in conflict with the mandate. Many of those are attempting to use the religious mandate as their case to continue working. Others have simply resigned or have been laid off.

Vacancy factors in nursing and respiratory care, as well as lab Phlebotomy, all direct care positions, are seeing Vacancy rates skyrocket to 30-40%. Hospital front line staffing is a national crisis now.

The vaccine mandate is one factor fueling this crisis but also the fact that employees can triple their salary quitting and working as agency nurses, phlebotomists, and respiratory therapists.

And finally, these positions have always had twenty, thirty, even fourty year veterans who were the glue holding together the system. Retirement among that group has drastically accelerated in the last year.

In short, American hospitals are seeing an unprecedented staffing and skills crisis emerging to critical levels within the last two months.

Economics started this, when COVID was on the decline and patient demand rose back hospitals were reluctant to hire back, as they were in a financial crisis from the lack of revenue due to COVID. This stressed an already traumatized staff to the brink.

Now to survive hospitals must pay unprecedented numbers of agency staff to cover critical shifts at the same time talented leaders at the front line and in management have retired.

This will come to a head in the next two to three months, where hospitals will be forced to close beds and deal with emerging quality and financial problems to stay open.

Then, as those strategies fail to fully resolve the loss of experienced talent, we will likely see the new hospital systems engage in a wave of small facility closures, further limiting care, even as our long term level of population health has been reduced due to COVID and its long term affects on health.

And not simply on healthcare, but the negative effects on the international supply change downstream from COVID are only in the middle of their rippling effect.

To completely re-emerge from these effects and after effects of COVID is likely to be a five year process, and we have not yet seen the worst.

"The general consensus is that the vaccines are safe."

Spence, thank you.

Okay, what about VAERS? Do you get a sense from your contacts in hospitals that adverse event reporting is being suppressed?

umami, Spence can weigh in on your specific query in terms of a factual Yes/No answer; but perhaps this recent piece, that I found online, may address your concern somewhat. Specifically, VAERS reporting isn't designed to directly address linkages, only to raise flags for further study, and suppression seems unlikely. This seems to be no more than empty scaremongering by the antivax nutjob types.


Good find.

1) "an autism activist once reported that a shot had transformed him into the Incredible Hulk"
Yes, even if hospitals have undereported, concerned citizens probably filled the void.

2) "'Post hoc, ergo propter hoc'; in this case the false belief that, just because an event happens after a shot, the vaccine caused the event."
Yes, correlation is not causation.

Hi Umami
You asked
"Okay, what about VAERS? Do you get a sense from your contacts in hospitals that adverse event reporting is being suppressed?"

Actually the opposite. Big data recording and tabulation has been set up, along with hundreds of professional chat rooms to discuss both treatments and effects of every kind related to COVID and COVID treatment.

Modifications are being made all the time to treatment protocols, significantly improving outcomes.

So, I would say the scrutiny and learning has been more intensive than anything I've seen before, and reflects the triumph of modern medicine.

Thanks again, Spence.


Quote of the Day
"It is the ego that is the great bar to spiritual progress. If you want ego, then you can’t have God. If you want God, then you must be crowned with humility."
— Swami Paramananda —

humility OR LOVE
Love is easier, . . . works on all manmuks and manmukhas sure & fast


Don t forget that we initiated
are the very low end of civilisation and humility has no chance at all
therefore is given the possibility of LOVE for someone who did it


WHO does attribute? (...)

Posted by: um | November 16, 2021 at 12:54 PM


Well AR ...maybe that is to tricky.

But maybe a down to earth example will do ... if you had a good meal in a "restaurant" do you leave the place weeping or with joy and gratitude?

If you drink your coffee and the cup is empty, do you start weeping?

If you were sitting in the warm sun and the sun sets do you start weeping?

If somebody smiles at you, do you start weeping as he or she passes by?

Posted by: um | November 16, 2021 at 01:26 PM



..........Ah, okay, I get you, finally, um. You're going for Nisargadatta's "Who am I" thing, coupled with the No-clinging-no-aversion staple of Buddhistic thought and practice. And you know what, that makes a great deal of sense. I'm already onboard with that, as you probably know from our past exchanges.

That said, the difficulty I'd highlighted (or tried to, not very articulately), in my comment the other day, I'm afraid that kind of is still there. There are two very real shortcomings to this approach, I'm afraid. Let me repeat, I'm already onboard with this myself, and I agree with your approach. But these difficulties are very real. If you have any thoughts around them, around these difficulties, I'd like to hear them.

(1) (a) To begin with, this simply side-steps the main issue that we were trying to "solve". This approach makes sense if and only if this life is all there is, so that recognizing that there's no abiding self, and the idea is to get out of the suffering that owes to desire (to clinging on, and to aversion).

While I personally fully agree with this myself, but still, I recognize that this is in a way begging the question. Or, to be more precise, it simply does not address the issue of the afterlife, if any.

(1)(b) And you know what? While this a great approach to get out of suffering --- and like I keep repeating again and again, I'm myself fully onboard with this technique and this philosophy --- but that's not the only way out, if this life is all there is. Like I'd enumerated out in my comment yesterday. For instance, an unthinking hedonistic lifestyle, ending with going out unthinkingly and without regret --- regardless of whether such a strategy is unthinking or deliberate --- while it is a brutish way to live, but still, for some it may well provide as "happy" a life as any. Provided this life is all there is, and there's no afterlife of the kind the different religions speak of.

(2) Finally, this seems like something like a halfway house to me. That is, it works great, this method, only because people don't really end up taking the thing to its end. If this approach really worked, then we'd have problems. You know why? Because without desire and without aversion, we'd simply lose the will to keep on doing the things that keep the world running.

For instance, practically every job we do, regardless of whether we're salaried, or professionals, or work our own business: practically every one of us gets through a great deal of grind, in order to arrive at our objects of desire (money, wealth, food on the table, roof over our head, security for ourselves and our loved ones, some luxuries for ourselves and our loved ones) and to stave off our aversions (disease, death, lack of material things, lack of luxuries). Once desire and aversion are gone, why the hell would anyone do anything at all, beyond the barest little that might be necessary for life --- if that? After all, don't forget, the guy who invented this approach millennia ago, the Buddha I mean, he himself spent his life a monk, doing no more than going around for his single meal a day by begging (and not caring much if nothing came his way). Even the plum job of running a kingdom --- and in the process having every luxury then available, as well as being able to do a great deal of good by being the top dog --- that was still waiting for him when he came back enlightened, even that job did not interest him in the least. Should any of us really get very far on this road, I doubt any of us would want to go playing investment banker, or chartered accountant, or corporate executive, or doctor, or engineer, or public servant, or businessman, or whatever the hell we do to earn our livelihood.

This crisis I see very clearly with this approach. The crisis is held at bay precisely because we've gone only so far, and probably may never go all the way through. The day we do, it's finito, as far as all that.

Which is a problem, why? This is why: Because that will mean extinguishing all the other competing "good" things. Love, for instance --- worldly, clinging love, I mean to say. Doing good, for another --- I mean the philanthropic kind, that needs money and effort. Et cetera. Not to mention losing out big time if the afterlife is anything like the other narratives claim (which question the Buddha simply sidestepped, he never ever actually addressed that issue at all).

(...) The best of life is love. And the source of love is within. The path is to live in an atmosphere of peace and love, to find and build happiness within.

Why within? Because everything else is fleeting. Things that are lasting are found within.

Happiness based on temporary things is always followed by trauma when those things fade away. Why should our noble foundation be placed upon a sea of shifting and broken glass? (...)

Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 16, 2021 at 07:50 PM


..........Lovely response, as usual, Spence. And absolutely, at one level I fully agree with you. Absolutely, love, in the larger meaning of the word, is indeed the best that life has to offer to us. And it is "inside" that we approach true happiness and true fulfillment, with the "outer" only the means to that inner happiness. I personally agree with and resonate with that POV of yours.

Except: This doesn't really address the specific issue I was asking about, does it? (Or at least, that I was trying to ask about. I don't know, I may not have ended up doing a very good job of clearly articulating the exact nuance that I meant to convey!)

For one thing, all of this presupposes the worldview that you've subjectively come to accept. A different kind of narrative of reality might prescribe a different approach. And we don't really know which narrative's true.

Besides, is love truly forever? Is the inner experience truly forever? For all we know it ends at death, right? In which case it is equally as transient as any of the other worldly baubles that people run after. To which extent it isn't intrinsically any "better" than those other baubles, is it?

Again, I don't myself disagree with your POV. But it isn't a very satisfactory resolution to the problem I'd tried to highlight here. Sure, the Titanic's sinking. But what to do about it, that seems kind of random, with no measure standing out as clearly the best. Like I'd tried to highlight, and enumerate some of the different options each apparently equally effective and/or equally ineffective, in my original comment yesterday.

Dungeness, I've really nothing more to add, beyond what I've said just now to um and to Spence.

Your approach, as you discuss it here, seems entirely sound. Except, and like I've tried to discuss above (I don't know if I've actually succeeded in getting across the sense, the exact nuance, that I wanted to convey!), the central problem, that I'd tried to highlight yesterday, that kind of remains unaddressed.

Which is no criticism of your approach, let me hasten to add. It's just that this issue remains unresolved.

And perhaps that cannot be helped. Perhaps there's no "best" resolution to a question like this. Perhaps the best we can do is go for what appears best to us, subjective thought that may be, and though it may not really be "better" than any of the other measures. Maybe there's no "best" way at all. Maybe.

In fact why "maybe", I should say "most probably". Because had there been some best way, wouldn't someone already, in all these centuries and millennia, not have already arrived at it?

Still, even if that were so, no harm thinking about this, I suppose, no harm discussing, right? To see if something might, just perhaps, come up? Kind of why we keep congregating here, at Brian's church, right?


Let me first state that in whatever I ever wrote here there was never an intention, suggestion or advice to others to do, think or feel as I do.

You should understand from this attitude how I reacted to your words using the tale of the man that lost the keys.

That man goes into the streets of the world, near and far. He talks to the people he meets in the street, reacts to what they have to say about the the keys they have lost and what they are doing to find their keys. There is no end to that interaction ....and .... it does not help to find that lost key; the key that was lost at "home"

We all live alone. We are born alone, live alone and we also die that way. Whatever we kno, we know INSIDE our selves. We know the presumes and so called outerworld and everything that pertains to it by means of our senses. We know also our thoughts, our emotions and whatever more appears before us. It is all inside. We, are alone as the KNOWER. We cannot share anything with one another., we are just alone.

There is one thing the knower does not know, as it is not part of the outer world, the thoughts the emotions, the dreams etc, and that is knowledge about the knower himself ... so it does not appear before him.

To know himself, if at all possible, is only through finding a way to see himself. That way is finding something in wihich and by which he can "see" his own reflection, like looking in a mirror.

That mirror is not to be found outside, in the senses, thoughts, emotions ... let alone the preoccupations of others.

Those who like coffee will drink coffee ... those who do not know about coffe or are otherwise not interested do their own things.

Grandma, eternal blessings and joy should be given to her, told me as a little boy of 3 ... little man, you can see the heads of people, you can never look inside these heads.
She also warned me not to sell my soul, lie or steal from our parents. hahahaha

"Let me first state that in whatever I ever wrote here there was never an intention, suggestion or advice to others to do, think or feel as I do."

..........I take your point, um. Understood.

While fully understanding that this approach is merely what you apply for yourself, and don't necessarily recommend to others, still, I'd like to explore this ...this thinking, this philosophy, this approach, just a bit further, if I may.


"You should understand from this attitude how I reacted to your words using the tale of the man that lost the keys.

That man goes into the streets of the world, near and far. He talks to the people he meets in the street, reacts to what they have to say about the the keys they have lost and what they are doing to find their keys. There is no end to that interaction ....and .... it does not help to find that lost key; the key that was lost at "home"

We all live alone. We are born alone, live alone and we also die that way. Whatever we kno, we know INSIDE our selves."

..........Okay, I get it now. What exactly you're trying to convey with that lost key analogy you keep bringing up.

um, while agreeing that introspective "work" is necessary for progress; and while also agreeing that often enough people --- extroverts, usually --- try to substitute this necessary solitary inner work with discussion, and that this approach only brings about the illusion of progress, if that, never actual progress; nevertheless, at a fundamental level I have some doubts about your approach. I'll try to present them concisely in two separate points here, and will be very interested in your considered response to both.

(1) Everything we know, about everything, we pick up from others. Everything, without exception. Now this does not mean blindly following others' direction. Absolutely, our own inner discernment is key here; as is the inner "work" that is needed to actually avail of whatever it is we've found; but still, there's NOTHING at all that we are able to learn entirely by ourselves.

What I know of the subjects I've studied, and the professional knowledge and expertise I use at work, those I've learnt from others. Absolutely, my own discernment and inner work was key, but still, without others I'd have remained wholly ignorant. The same can be said for everything else that I know anything about: about fitness and working out, about music, about literature, about philosophy, about ... well, about everything really.

Take that very example you keep bringing up, about eating at a restaurant. By yourself you simply wouldn't know where to go. It is others who do guide you. If nothing else it is the signboard outside the restaurant that informs and draws you in the first place, or maybe the display, or maybe the view of the interiors. Without that impetus from outside, you wouldn't even have known that food is served there at all. Restaurant guides and books and blogs, as well as talking with other people, these are all just extensions of that very basic thing. How far you wish to go, to what extent you wish to avail of this external impetus, that is your choice, obviously. But no, you DON'T of yourself and in isolation know what restaurant to go to, or indeed if there is a restaurant at all nearby. Do you see that? Of necessity you draw your information from outside.

Since that is so with everything under the sun, why should it be any different for this spirituality business? Sure, you do need your own inner discernment; and absolutely, your own solitary inner introspective "work" is key; but still, the only way you'll know what to do, or how to do it, or why, all that, is only by talking to others. Even if it's simply listening to just one person, maybe your own father, or your own spiritual guide, or your own elder brother, but still, you can't just sit by yourself in the middle of nowhere and directly come to know all there is to know. I don't see how that's even possible. How much of discussion agrees with you, that's your personal subjective decision, absolutely; but your statement, that no discussion is needed, and that the answer simply pops up of its own to you in solitude, well, I don't see how that works, at all.

(2) Another way, another more concise way, of articulating my question/ objection/ doubt, would be to address your analogy itself.

You keep asking, "You've lost your key at home, why look for it in the streets?" Well, I think that analogy is a bit flawed. It assumes you've already had the key; and somehow ended up losing it; and now need to find it again. The fact is probably different. I think a more correct analogy would be: You never had a key at all; and you want to find a key; so you go out to the street to learn what there is to learn about keys. Sure, you'll need to get back "home" to actually use that key, maybe even to address the advanced stages of searching for your key; but without going out into the "street", how can you possibly know anything about a key that you've never ever had in the first place?

Isn't it, um? A baby is born today. What "key" does this child possess, by itself? Nothing at all! Any wisdom, any spiritual knowledge, that it imbibes, it must necessary imbibe from "outside", And cultivate it "within", sure.

It has to be a combination of the inner and the outer. Or so it seems to me. Sure, once you've learnt some technique, then you get back "inside" to practice it, and to perfect it. But you need to go out into the street to get it in the first place.

Do you agree, um? Or am I missing something here?

Hi AR!
Good questions.

My perspective is the only one I can share with any credibility.

Whatever is within you goes with you wherever you go for as long as you know.

So that's eternal to you.

I only suggest that it's largely uncharted territory, and as consciousness is raised, so more of what is in you becomes visible.

And I would say that the taste, the impression of those inner things is really much finer, more wonderful than the flawed and more temporary things we witness with ever greater clarity, as our inner vision develops, in the physical world.

@ AR
>> It has to be a combination of the inner and the outer. Or so it seems to me. Sure, once you've learnt some technique, then you get back "inside" to practice it, and to perfect it. But you need to go out into the street to get it in the first place.

Do you agree, um? Or am I missing something here? <<

Under [1] you wrote that one can not know all that can be known by sitting by oneself. That is correct but why would you or anybody else, want to know what there is to know. Be interested in what others are doing, thinking, feeling, dreaming, experiencing ... forgetting ones own life.

Jus see for o moment, do not forget the coffee ...., how much time and effort is spend in OTHERS. When you watch tv. go to a theater, to a museum, watch a sport game, read books of mystics, philosophers etc etc etc ... that is all time spent in OTHERS, in what THEY, the others did with their lives, what they had in mind, what solutions they foun fro THEIR problems .... but ... how could that possibly help you, to fulfill YOUR life.

There is no end to people and what the did with their lives ...

To find out who and what you are, you have to get rid of that burden ... and ... if you think you can solve that riddle by discussing more, reading more etc ... you are adding to an already heavy burden.

When young I was aware that we are all born with a personal song. In order to sing that song, one has to learn singing as is the tradition of a given culture and society. In that process of learning the technique, the tradition, the memory of that personal song, easily gets lost. Most people will die ever having sung their song.

The song is the key.

As said before, nothing and nobody on earth will stop you from the path you have chosen for yourself, that of rational thinking. You will have to walk the whole way and at the end you will know and nobody on earth will be able to fool you around.

There are several types of painters AR. Some will gaze a the white canvas for hours and than they start painting, not knowing where it comes from, not knowing who is the painter that paints.

(...) When young I was aware that we are all born with a personal song. In order to sing that song, one has to learn singing as is the tradition of a given culture and society. In that process of learning the technique, the tradition, the memory of that personal song, easily gets lost. Most people will die ever having sung their song.

The song is the key. (...)

There are several types of painters AR. Some will gaze a the white canvas for hours and than they start painting, not knowing where it comes from, not knowing who is the painter that paints. (...)

Posted by: um | November 17, 2021 at 12:06 PM


That's very poetic, um.

And I see, now, that this is the crux of the line you generally take here, and exactly what you mean by the lost key analogy.

Absolutely, I see both the poetry, as well as the wisdom, contained in this insight. On the other hand, I can also see some issues that a POV like this might face, should it be subject to a properly rational discussion. [ Oh yes, I can picture you responding with a long hearty "ha ha ha ha" when you hear me say that! :---) ]

I'll keep away from over-analyzing that comment of yours, I don't see such compulsive analysis leading anywhere, at least in this instance. Instead, I'll choose to take away the poetry and the inner wisdom conveyed by your comment. Thank you, um, for sharing that insight. Cheers!

@ AR

>>I'll keep away from over-analyzing that comment of yours, I don't see such compulsive analysis leading anywhere, at least in this instance. Instead, I'll choose to take away the poetry and the inner wisdom conveyed by your comment. Thank you, um, for sharing that insight. Cheers! <<

That is a good idea AR. Although being a pleasure conversing with you, it also led me more and more towards the boundaries and beyond my comfort zone and maybe also that of others .... hahahaha.


@ AR

To thank you for the conversations, this video, which speaks of experience above knwoledge:



@ AR

Listen at 14 :30 what he says about free will ... hahahaha
Life is funny.
Drink more thee and coffee.

Why, thank you, um, for the thought!

Reminded me of my grandfather, who was a total tea fanatic. Every cup was a science and an art for him, right from the sourcing to the brewing to the presentation and the genteel unhurried drinking of it.

I'm more of a coffee man myself -- like you, I suspect -- but I enjoyed the man's sheer devotion to the serious business of tea!

And, as before, I'm not going to wallow in critiqueing. I wonder, though, if he wasn't conflating means and end. But it was an interesting watch, nonetheless. Cheers!

@ AR

>> Why, thank you, um, for the thought!<<

You might be well aware of stage artists, stating that the quality of their performance is related and depended to the audience.

You have become like your grandfather .... making, and drinking and skillfully enjoying "mental, rational" tea .... hahahaha ... apples do not fall far from the tree they grew on.

Free Will
I had it for a nano second
didn't like it


HE . . . made a beautiful flute

And did hide Himself in You and me to play it


The gateway to the multiverse is meditation, worship of the Lord, but how could we know? .

When these brains only reveal our entire lives in memory, by a biochemical process moment to moment, our understanding and awareness is entirely situational.

If we could slip from one physical reality to another physical reality, from one "Spence" to another parallel universe "Spence" we would not necessarily remember anything but the universe we had entered, and only the memories, impressions and opinions in that physical brain.

And so it may well be that we move from parallel universe to parallel universe without even knowing it on a regular basis.

If we could remember a glimpse, an impression of our actual prior occupancy, we would realize that the reality we had entered is a little different. The people around us are slightly different. The trajectory of our lives, while similar, is not what we recall in that vague impression.

How could we lose awareness of who we are by switching to a different multiverse?

Because our awareness of who we are right now is a moment by moment recreation of our brain. The brain is switching our consciousness off, recreating a new impression of our lives, then turning the switch on again several times every second.

So who you thought you were even one second ago is actually a different, discarded copy of the impression you are aware of now.

In meditation the practitioner learns to remain conscious between the brain's beats of consciousness. And so much more is seen and understood. Even a change of attitude can switch you to another place altogether, though you will not understand how that happened or what has happened without the ability to see apart from time and the physical brain you occupy.

What is the time and space machine that does this? Our attention.

However short the life of the tiniest insect, shorter still is the lifespan of the entire impression of who you are the brain presents to you at any given moment. That "you" are more than this flimsy copy of a copy of a copy af infinitum, is pure illusion.

Red meat is bad for you...

"This is hardly the first study to reveal that red meat consumption is bad for you. Another recent scientific analysis, which was presented on Monday at the American Heart Association Scientific Sessions 2021, revealed that animal fat is linked to a higher risk of stroke while vegetable fat is linked to a lower risk. Its authors noted that even minor modifications in red meat and processed meat consumption could lead to "huge" improvements in public health. (The results, which were accumulated over 27 years by 117,000 health care professionals, has not yet been published in a peer-reviewed journal.)"

" A huge study across decades suggests red meat and processed meats may be much worse for us than previously thought"


"Soon after, Layla was forcibly married to another noble and rich merchant belonging to the Thaqif tribe in Ta'if. He was described as a handsome man with reddish complexion whose name was Ward Althaqafi. The Arabs called him Ward, meaning "rose" in Arabic.

"When Majnun heard of her marriage, he fled the tribal camp and began wandering the surrounding desert. His family eventually gave up hope for his return and left food for him in the wilderness. He could sometimes be seen reciting poetry to himself or writing in the sand with a stick.

"Layla is generally depicted as having moved to a place in Northern Arabia with her husband, where she became ill and eventually died. In some versions, Layla dies of heartbreak from not being able to see her beloved. Majnun was later found dead in the wilderness in 688 AD, near Layla's grave. He had carved three verses of poetry on a rock near the grave, which are the last three verses attributed to him.

"Many other minor incidents happened between his madness and his death. Most of his recorded poetry was composed before his descent into madness.

" I pass by this town, the town of Layla
And I kiss this wall and that wall
It’s not Love of the town that has enraptured my heart
But of the One who dwells within this town


Who is the giver in this tale?

The love within is the giver to both, and both must suffer for it.

But who would give up such suffering? It is not even a choice.

When Master and Disciple are One they both receive, and cannot be distinguished.

In Love there is no greater or lesser, not two, only One.

Love brings the wise Teacher, God in Human Form, down to our level, as a humble, foolish and loving student, who doesn't seem to understand. The servant of the lowest of the low.

Love raises the selfish student into a wise, meek and noble Teacher, the noblest of all, the Master of all.

Love turns iron into precious Gems.

And Diamonds into grains of sand.

And each grain of Sand into our Teacher.

I knew that many like Layla and Maynun suffer and suffered
but Charan leared me I learned and really feel that is because
of the misconception of wanting to receive love
as if one was entitled to receive

I learned en feel strongly that the greatness of love is in the giving; Not at all in the grepping
Also without the need to be "loved back" their is no suffering

And there is so much S/HE is present in : that we can love, . . it s fantastic


Let s be constantly in love in the exponential productive way

"At one time, most of my friends could hear the bell.

"But as years passed, it fell silent for all of them.

"Even Sarah found, one Christmas, that she could no longer hear its sweet sound.

" Though I've grown old....

"... The bell still rings for me."

Final narrative from The Polar Express.

Happy Holidays!

Hi 777
There is nothing wrong with suffering from separation from our beloved, longing for our beloved. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. It is no lack of love at all, but in fact a reflection of love.

"Take anything away from me, take everything away from me. But do not take this longing for my Master from me."

When it is impossible to function without His Presence that is no loss, but a gift.


I touched wood


Longing for Love and Light is good... _/\_

It is a Gift...

The notion that your consciousness is the greatest intelligence with respect to who you are or..

That you are alone as the only intelligence intimate with your own experience..

These are the failed notions of the Atheist.

They see nothing.

Rather than state "I am blind, I see nothing" they presume nothing is there and nothing can be there.

Sorry, you are not alone..
You are not the greatest intelligence...
You are not the only one conscious of who you are...

You are just in the dark.

It's absurdly simple.

The Atheist sees nothing and says nothing is there.

But they just aren't seeing anything.

The mystic sees the greater consciousness all around and within them. There is no place Spirit isn't.


Why aren't you equally harsh on the world's theists? They're no less in the dark. Here's a mystic calling b.s. on theists - a Satguru in our line, Jagat Singh - in the first few paragraphs of The Science of the Soul, chapter 2...

"Two paths are open to us in this world. Either we follow the path of the Mind, or that of the Guru, known as Guru Mat or Guru Marg. Everyone, according to his own light, claims to follow Guru Mat.
"The Sikhs base this claim on the strength of the five symbols, referred to as the five Ks', which they wear: Kanga (comb), Kara (steel bracelet), Kachh (short knickers), Kesh (long hair) and Kirpan (sword). The five Ks are considered essential pre-requisites and without them none can claim to be a follower of their Guru.
"The Muslims regard Namaz, Roza, Haj and Zakat (prayer, five times daily; fasting from sunrise to sundown for thirty days during the month of Ramzan, pilgrimage to Mecca, and giving a portion of their income to charity) as Guru Mat.
"In the same manner, the Hindus regard Shikha (tuft of hair at the top of the head), Sutar (sacred thread), Sandhya (prayer both morning and evening), Tarpan (religious fire for invoking gods) and Khat Karmas (six duties according to Hindu scripture) as Guru's Way.
"Some look upon idol worship, pilgrimages and baths in 'holy waters' as Guru Mat. Others take to reading Gita, repetition of Gayatri, recitation of Ramayana or other sacred scriptures. And still others think that fasting and other austerities lead to God-realization. Yogis treat Pranayam (breath control) as well as Dhoti* Neti and Vasti Karmas as the path to God-realization. Christians, however, believe in Christ as the all-time Redeemer, with Baptism and the various sacraments, rites and rituals, as Guru Mat. In short, people do one thing or the other, and all claim to follow the Path of the Masters.
"Let us consider what is true Guru Mat? One makes progress according to the capacity and knowledge of one's Guru. But we find numerous gurus at every step. In fact, there are more so-called 'gurus' in this world than there are disciples... The Perfect Masters always say: "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you." Lord God, the Supreme Creator, cannot be found outside by one who has not realized Him within. This human body of ours is the "Mansion of the Lord", the "Temple of the Living God." Those who seek him outside, wander in illusion."

Atheists might even be ahead of the game, having already set aside the phony baloney!

Hi Umami
Anyone who an calm their thinking to see things objectively is a better observer and closer to the truth. Any method that helps them calm their thinking, calm their emotions, angers, fears and desires will, overall, see things more objectively. Anyone who is more aware and awake to what is around and within them is going to have more information and make better decisions.

Meditation is the long-standing path to accomplishing this. And that path, regardless of the trappings, if it is a true path, cannot change as the human construction has not changed.

Therefore what was learned many millennia ago, still holds true today, regardless of the cultural labels. And so long as the human form is the same, that path will hold true into perpetuity.

When the human form advances to something substantially different, then you may say that there is some better way for a human being to really understand who and what they are.

And modern science has made some progress in pointing out the healthy benefits and better cognitive functioning of even the simplest forms of meditation practice and focusing / controlling the attention.

Then there is worship. One very longstanding method to focus the mind. Sincere, passionate, loving worship.

As for worship, everyone worships something or someone, but mostly unconsciously. And most objects of worship are a true waste of time. But at least to know what you are worshipping is progress.

The person blindly focused for hours every day on their car, their house, their children, their spouse, their bills, their stock performance, places all their attention thoughtlessly on them and their well-being. Is that not worship? And thinking that they must, that they have no other options, isn't that enslavement?

Are any of these worthy of one's fleeting years of limited attention?

There is something far greater to be spending our hard-earned attention upon.

But instead we see the person who spends all their time on themselves, their reputation, their career, their appearance, their income, their connections, and the careful curation of these, is that not worship?

But the difference is who or what are you worshiping? Worshiping an idol, worshiping yourself? Worshiping a thing?

Or worshiping the truth?

And when we discover that we ourselves have become enslaved by the above forms of worship, what then?

We seek some guidance out of that enslavement and pettiness, focus on petty things, focus on competing with others rather than helping them.

And when we find that guidance, and it proves truly and permanently helpful, what then?

We can't help but fall in love with that person. And worshipping them, we find self-realization and liberation.

The idea of worshipping a person who is pointing back to the inner truth of self-discovery and liberation is laughed at? But the idea of worshipping with our available time things that are fleeting, that is wise?

It is interesting how people look at others with disdain who believe differently than they do.

That right away tells you about their own enslavement to their own thinking.

Liberation from our own thinking to see things objectively has been an obvious and visible pathway for all human history. Yet, look how people manage to get so far from it.

There are false prophets and false profits. They are often the same.

The marker between religion and atheism is not any distinction between truth and falsehood at all, and thinking it is, is another example of ignorance.

But as we are all to some extent ignorant, then why not engage in a path of discovery and liberation?

Any sincere effort doing so yields progress that is permanent, and never leaves you.

All for the cost of placing your attention on something worthy.

My new favorite song!

It's about time. Yes and yes.

Science is catching up to reality. Time is not unidirectional.

·ooʇ ǝsɹǝʌᴉun-ᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ uᴉ ʞɔnʇs ɯˌI ʍou ʻʇɐǝɹꓨ

Cool Umami, cool!

I'm reading it upside down because the way out is IN.

¡ʎʇᴉʅɐnp ǝɹoɯ ǝuo ʇǝ⅄ .ǝɯᴉʇ-ᴉʇuɐ ɥʇᴉʍ pǝɹᴉɐd sᴉ ǝɯᴉʇ ʇɐɥʇ pǝssǝnƃ ǝʌɐɥ pʅnoɥs I


.ereht og ot noitatidem rof deen eht ecneh ,emit fo edistuo tsixe t'nseod ytilauD

imamU iH

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