I take another look at U.G. Krishnamurti

Back in 2009 I wrote a blog post about U.G. Krishnamurti, calling him intriguing, irritating, inspirational. That was based on reading some of his Mind Is a Myth book, which has an appealing copyright notice.

My teaching, if that is the word you want to use, has no copyright. You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.

The book is still available online. But recently I got a paperback copy after being reminded of the book when a passage was quoted in something else I was reading. 

I still feel the same way about U.G. Krishnamurti, not to be confused with J. Krishnamurti. It's perplexing that even though he claims he has no teaching to share, and harshly criticizes gurus, the book consists of transcripts of conversations he had with people who sought him out -- maybe because they liked to be insulted.

Which Krishnamurti does a lot. 

Below are some excerpts from the initial part of the book that will give you a feel for his philosophy and style. There's quite a bit to like about his irreligious outlook on life, and also a lot not to like about the way he talks. 

He's provocative, for sure. An introduction says that Krishnamurti's childhood "was, in short, steeped in religious lore, philosophical discourse, and the influence of various spiritual personages."

However, "It was in these early years of his live that U.G. began to feel that 'something was wrong somewhere,' referring to the whole religious tradition into which he had been immersed almost from the beginning."

So his rejection of religion was based on a deep understanding of what later turned him off. This is part of what he says in the book's The Certainty That Blasts Everything chapter.

Your problems continue because of the false solutions you have invented. If the answers are not there, the questions cannot be there. They are interdependent; your problems and solutions go together, because you want to use certain answers to end your problems, these problems continue.

The numerous solutions offered by all these holy people, the psychologists, the politicians, are not really solutions at all. That is obvious. If there were legitimate answers, there would be no problems. 

They can only exhort you to try harder, practice more meditations, cultivate humility, stand on your head, and more and more of the same. That is all they can do. The teacher, guru, or leader who offers solutions is also false, along with his so-called answers.

He is not doing any honest work, only selling a cheap, shoddy commodity in the marketplace. If you brushed aside your hope, fear, and naïveté and treated these fellows like businessmen, you would see that they do not deliver the goods and never will.

But you go on and on buying these bogus wares offered up by the experts.

------------------

All their philosophies cannot compare to the native wisdom of the body itself. What they are calling mental activity, spiritual activity, emotional activity, and feelings are really all one unitary process. 

The body is highly intelligent and does not need these scientific or theological teachings to survive and procreate. Take away all your fancies about life, death, and freedom, and the body remains unscathed, functioning harmoniously.

It does not need your or my help. You don't have to do a thing. You will never again ask stupid, idiotic questions about immortality, afterlives, or death. The body is immortal.

------------------

Life has no beginning and no end. A dead and dying body feeds the hungry ants there in the grave, and rotting corpses give off soil-enriching chemicals, which in turn nourish other life forms. You cannot put an end to your life, it is impossible. 

The body is immortal and never asks silly questions like "Is there immortality?" It knows that it will come to an end in that particular form, only to continue on in others. Questions about life after death are always asked out of fear. 

Those leaders who would direct your "spiritual life" cannot be honest about these things, for they make a living out of fear, speculations about future life, and the "mystery" of death.

------------------

As long as you think you have something to renounce, you are lost. Not to think of money and the necessities of life is an illness. It is a perversion to deny yourself the basic needs of life. You think that through a self-imposed asceticism you will increase your awareness and then be able to use that awareness to be happy.

No chance. You will be peaceful when all your ideas about awareness are dropped and you begin to function like a computer. You must be a machine, function automatically in the world, never questioning your actions before, while, or after they occur.

------------------

For this reason the whole guru business is absolute nonsense. This has always been the case, not just now. Your self-denial enriches the priests. 

You deny yourself your basic needs while that man travels in a Rolls Royce car, eating like a king, and being treated like a potentate. He, and the others in the holy business, thrive on the stupidity and credulity of others.

The politicians, similarly, thrive on the gullibility of man. It is the same everywhere.

------------------

If your meditation, sadhanas, methods and techniques meant anything, you wouldn't be here asking these questions. They are all means for you to bring about change. I maintain that there is nothing to change or transform.

You accept that there is something to change as an article of faith. You never question the existence of the one who is to be changed. The whole mystique of enlightenment is based upon the idea of transforming yourself.

------------------

Any action that takes place at the conscious level of your thinking existence is a reaction. Pure, spontaneous action free of all previous actions is meaningless. The one and only action is the response of this living organism to the stimuli around it.

That stimulus-response process is a unitary phenomenon. There is no division between action and reaction except when thought interferes and artificially separates them. Otherwise it is an automatic, unitary process, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. There is no need to stop it.

Just as in reality there is no separation of action and reaction, so there is no room for the religious man in the natural scheme of things. The fresh movement of life threatens his source of power and prestige. Still, he does not want to retire. He must be thrown out.

Religion is not a contractual arrangement, either public or private. It has nothing to do with the social structure or its management. Religious authority wants to continue its hold on the people, but religion is entirely an individual affair.

The saints and saviors have only succeeded in setting you adrift in life with pain and misery and the restless feeling that there must be something more meaningful or interesting to do with one's life. Existence is all that is important, not how to live.

We have created the "how" to live, which in turn has created this dilemma for us. Your thinking has created problems -- what to eat, wear, how to behave -- the body doesn't care. I am simply pointing out the absurdity of this conversation.

Once you get the hang of it, you just go. I have no message to give mankind.

Comments

[Ron E.]

I bought a copy of U.G’s “Mind is a Myth” quite a few years ago and described what he was saying to my own mind as ‘outrageous’, but outrageous in the sense that all that the spiritual minded community held as sacrosanct, he ‘blasted it’ – to use his own expression.

But I somehow liked his dismissive attitude toward, well, practically every type of spiritual, religious, political, even educational and cultural ways of thinking. Perhaps because there was a lot of the ‘love and peace’ movement about along with the hypocrisy of other institutions which I had learned to distrust.

While on a visit to London I bought a copy of the ‘U. G. Krishnamurti Reader’, (Penguin Books) a compilation of much of his utterances and ideas. I read his work purely to see how he interpreted this thing called life – which is really the reason these days why I read most books on such subjects.

One of his utterances were :- “The body is immortal, but immortal in the sense that all there is, is life and death is simply a reshuffling of atoms back to other forms of life”. He’s shocking, but worth a read.

[Vinny]

Christian jokers have created false education system stealing from Sanskrit to make false language English. Now they are victims of this false dangerous system of unconscious mind. Also it is difficult for Christians to digest the fact that Osho and UG were speaking from conscious mind.

[albert]

Thanks Brian. It is highly unfortunate that K had no concern for the afterlife. He was more concerned with criticizing the institutions which prey on the masses with fear and guilt. In this, I believe K was very keen and correct in his critical analysis of bogus paths, like religion and pseudo-gurus.

We exist in this human body for 100 years.,..or less. How in the world can anyone take this life as the "be-all and end-all" of life, which stretches on forever. This notion of eternal life, in my view, is writ large in my own awareness. It alerts me to the transitory and temporary nature of my life, in this body/mind and in this short space of time. I am reminded of the singular and powerful statement, unanimously voiced by all Saints and Yogeshwars: "Life is an illusory fabric. Only death is real."

I have written several entries regarding the subject of "death". Everything will be left behind. This fact needs to be contemplated seriously, methinks humbly. It is so very easy and welcome to ignore this most important and inevitable event and, instead, move toward the next sense-enjoyment or mental thrill.

There will come a time IN EACH OF OUR LIVES when both the body and mind are incapable of experiencing any material or mental pleasures due to senescence. Death can also occur by injurious accident and illness...anytime. No one knows when their own Life-Force will depart the body...THEN WHAT?

[Brian Hines]

albert, why do you believe in life after death? What convincing evidence is there of this? Didn't Krishnamurti just speak the truth, that everyone sees death occurring, but no one sees life after death happening? Life after death is a religious concept, not something real.

[Uchit]

We need more honest and truthful people like Krishnamurthi

He became a successor cult leader and was brave enough to dissolve his entire cult with millions of followers as he said it creates an ugly dependency. If only gurinder Singh dhillon could just be an honest man and tell the truth and that he is a total fraud, with zero spirituality, and that RSSB is there mainly to create a massive following, attract people with money and power, and create a dependency on innocent gullible desperate lost people who need to make sense of a world that is a sick place - Easy pickings for the narsasist guru GSD who is a wolf in sheep clothing.

[Vinny]

Leave GSD to sit on lap of Christian thieves. And get nobel prize for leaving GSD from thieves.

[Dungeness]

@ Brian Ji : [ Life after death is a religious concept, not something real. ]

I think the academic jury's still out. There is ongoing research at the
Univ. of Virginia at Arlington cited in past threads here in CofC as I
recall.

There are innumerable compelling cases globally to warrant these
studies. It's clear the research objective is an unbiased assessment
too and not some kind of pre-ordained morbidity profile of subjects.

Here's a UVA link I found after a quick look-see:
https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/our-research/children-who-report-memories-of-previous-lives/

[manjit]

Ah, UG.

I remember when I went through all of his stuff, some 20 odd years ago, and was impressed by his indubitable brilliance. I haven't read Brian selection of quotes above, but I can imagine where his emphasis probably lies :)

There was SO much truth, so much power, so much authenticity in what UG was saying.

But I couldn't help but feel there was something "missing"....something I couldn't put my finger on.....

.....Now, 20 years later there is far more clarity, so much simplicity to my interests........how much JOY is there? How much LOVE is there? How much GRATITUDE is there?

UG? Nah, not much.

I understand those of a particular ideological bent will interpret this as some sort of delusional aspiration, and "rationally" claim that "truth" and "reality" doesn't necessitate joy, love, compassion, bliss or gratitude etc.

But then those who would think that clearly do not appreciate that I just wrote above that it is obvious there was MUCH truth and reality and authenticity to UG.......or appreciate that there maybe realities and ontological modes of being BEYOND what UG experienced, but that does not negate the power of UG's truth on and at the level it was coming from.

But, as with all things, each to their own :)

[um]

@ Manjit

Collaterial information .... there are quite some pictures of UG the be found on the internet,.... look at his face, just gaze, look at his overall appearance.... in silence they tell a tale.

And ...the mystic, they all claim, cannot be recognized [unfortunately for others] by his appearance or behaviour.

So, those that think that an mystic experience absolves them from their fate, karma or character, are in error.

So those that have an harsh expression can be angelic inside have angelic experiences ....and .... the reverse.

[Appreciative Reader]

"The teacher, guru, or leader who offers solutions is also false, along with his so-called answers.

He is not doing any honest work, only selling a cheap, shoddy commodity in the marketplace."

..........At one level that sounds oh-so-impressive. At another, though, you have to ask, So what's he doing blabbing away there? I mean, take Jiddu K. I hugely greatly immensely admire that he had the integrity to disband that organization that was built up essentially to worship and follow him (Star something-or-other, I forget the exact name), but what did he do with the rest of his life? Did he actually put in a day's honest work? All he did was live off his lectures. Which is no different than a lighter --- and therefore an admittedly far less vulgar --- version of his original "World Teacher" role. Likewise UGK, I'd say. (Except, I'm not all that familiar with this other, lesser known, Krishnamurti. I have this impression that he too basically lived off his "non-teachings" and his disciples and acolytes, but if it is the case that he did not, then no, this won't apply to him.)

-------

He rejects religious and spiritual mumbo jumbo, which is great, but he does that from a very weird perspective. The simplest way to reject this nonsense is to simply focus the light of clear reason on to these superstitions. What UGK did is pretend to some overarching understanding of all of this, some kind of implied authority, and from that height delivered these pronouncements. He's guilty of that same nonsensical (and probably self-serving) obfuscation and faux-profundity that he claimed he saw in Jiddu K and quarreled with him over.

(Not to mention the utter nonsense that he sprinkes his "non-teachings" with. This for instance? "The body is highly intelligent and does not need these scientific or theological teachings to survive and procreate. Take away all your fancies about life, death, and freedom, and the body remains unscathed, functioning harmoniously. ... It does not need your or my help. You don't have to do a thing. You will never again ask stupid, idiotic questions about immortality, afterlives, or death. The body is immortal." What utter nonsense. Sure, no one needs theology, but to claim the body isn't benefited by science? That's simply crazy.)

-------

Net net, I'd say UGK's BS is good in so far as it helps those who're trapped in religious superstitions to break free. A far more direct means of breaking free is to simply apply reason and rationality, but still, for those who cannot or will not do that, if they are able to get over their superstitions via UGK's bombast, well I suppose that's a good thing.

[Ron E.]

One of U. G.'s comments that rings true for me is :-

“The body is a fortuitous concourse of atoms. There is no death for the body, only an exchange of atoms. Their changing places and taking different forms is what we call 'death.' It's a process which restores the energy level in nature that has gone down. In reality, nothing is born and nothing is dead.”

This is also reflected in Mary Elizabeth Frye's poem :-

Do not stand at my grave and weep
I am not there; I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow,
I am the diamond glints on snow,
I am the sun on ripened grain,
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning's hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight.
I am the soft stars that shine at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry,
I am not there; I did not die.

[um]

@ A.R.

When you are able to see some Q&A sessions of him. and instead of focusing on him and what he says, but on those that ask questions, you might come to understand something about conditioning, attachment etc.

Grossly, there are two forms to be seen [a] those that want to win a rational battle and [b] those that are puzzled by what he says, thing there is a deep meaning to it.

Both a and b because the focus on him will stumble over their own intellectual and emotional feet.

In terms of Akido .. they try to pull him into their own circle of mental power and fail.... he simple refuses to play the game in the way they are used to, attached, not knowing what to do next. Some get angry, some call him names others are baffled.

And it is all their own "fault" ... they either should not converse with him at all or try to see what he is point at, just for fun, curiosity or whatever.

In Wikipedia, there are some words about the experience that he went trough and that shook him and changed him physically and mentally ...Manjit would be able to say something about it as it resembles a severe kundalini blow.

Couple with the frustration he had developed during his upbringing .. he way of speaking starts to get meaning ... and it should not surprise .. it make me laugh many a time

Word correcting is a pleasure ... otherwise what I wrote became a total mess ... hahah

[Appreciative Reader]

"those that want to win a rational battle"

.......um, rationality is NOT a battle. Or at least, while anything at all can be made into a battle, if that is what one wants to do, including rationality, sure; but there's nothing at all about a rational outlook that's basically looking for a fight. Rationality --- not the old Greek version, I mean rationality juxtaposed with science, the current modern version --- is simply seeing clearly, and questioning and rejecting obfuscation and delusion, and thereby working one's way to that interpretation of reality that is as close to reality itself as one can make it.

-------

"In Wikipedia, there are some words about the experience that he went trough and that shook him and changed him physically and mentally ...Manjit would be able to say something about it as it resembles a severe kundalini blow."

.......That's right, this does correspond with what allegedly happens when kundalini "rises". Kundalini rising via one of the off-kilter "nadi"s usually causes a great deal of distress; and even when it rises as it is meant to, via the Sushumna, even then there often is, to begin with, a great deal of distress, and that is often followed by psychic powers manifesting spontaneously. (Or so they say. Hearsay, um, hearsay. Hot cakes being hawked in the marketplace, um! :--))

My point is, first and foremost, Kundalini is a fascinating subject of study, and research even. But no, this isn't scientifically established, not by a long shot. Therefore it makes no sense to think of Kundalini as fact. All it is is conjecture.

As for what happened to UGK, that "catastrophe" of his. First of all, what we know of what happened to him people can only have learned directly from UGK himself. Man may simply have been lying his head off, to impress his followers, and impressing them all the more by acting coy afterwards. If that's not the case, then it's quite possible that he simply went off his rocker --- or, to put it more gently, was visited by some kind of psychotic episode. Perhaps he may have some kind of neurological ailment that went undiagnosed and untreated. Yes, there's some small probability that Kundalini is fact, and that UGK actually did have a Kundalini-rising episode --- I'm not saying that's out-and-out impossible, but frankly, what are the odds?

He complains that religions themselves create problems --- or at least, religious thinking creates problems --- that they then try to pose solutions to, in the process perpetuating those problems (that in the absence of religion wouldn't have existed at all). Well, methinks that's EXACTLY what he himself is doing, with his crazy teachings. If he wants to call out irrational bullshit, then the simplest way is to focus reason and rationality on to that superstitious bullshit, not fart out meaningless faux-profound nonsense.

That said, okay, sure, for those folks who simply will not or cannot directly take in a dose of rationality plain and simple, if somehow UGK's nonsense can help wean them away from religion and superstition, well then, to that extent, absolutely, more power to him and his teachings.

[Spence Tepper]

U. G. points to the false thinking and corruption of religion but fails to take that lesson back to himself, to identify his own limited and slanted thinking.

Hence the cynic, the pessimist, the nihilist, the Atheist has no where to turn for answers proclaiming there are none, because they have stopped their explorations within.

The man in the mirror has the answers, though they may not sound pleasant at first.

[um]

@ AR

It is always funny when you start to use qualitative adjectives and the emotion that speaks from them.

For a rationalist UG must be an headache as he presents a world and a living that doesn't need rational thinking.

Rational thinking is by its self an kind of religion, worldview or seeing through tinted spectacles and he loves to tell them that it is cultural nonsense.

What he says is actualy simple ...,he says look, to live a life as a human being you do not need the cultural mumbo jumbo ...humans are natural beings endowed with everything to survive in nature.

But ...to survive in culture as a natural being one certainly has to be conditioned in this or that way to look at nature.

[um]

@ Spence

If what you have is to be had that simple ... give it to the people.
Does your family has arrive at your inner stage?
Your friends?
Your neighbourhood,
Your city,
Your state?

If not,how come spence ...

[Appreciative Reader]

"@ AR

It is always funny when you start to use qualitative adjectives and the emotion that speaks from them."

..........Heh, mea culpa, as far as having gotten triggered. This kind of BS does tend to jar on me. I find myself increasingly less ...patient, with this kind of nonsense.

----------

"For a rationalist UG must be an headache as he presents a world and a living that doesn't need rational thinking."

..........He's an irritant, sure, with his endless bull. Why do you think, though, that his world doesn't need rational thinking? If you mean he was literally nuts, then okay, perhaps he *was* insane, I don't know. But if you mean he represents some deeper mode of perception that is beyond rationality and therefore beyond the reach of rationalists, then ...no, just no. It's nothing of the kind. (Or at least, while it may be anything, including Harry Potter magic, but there's no reasonable grounds for concluding that.)

----------

"Rational thinking is by its self an kind of religion, worldview or seeing through tinted spectacles and he loves to tell them that it is cultural nonsense."

..........Er, sorry, but no. There's nothing religious about rationality. To think that is to not understand what rationality entails. Sorry, um, I disagree squarely with that view, even if expressed half in jest.

----------

"What he says is actualy simple ...,he says look, to live a life as a human being you do not need the cultural mumbo jumbo ...humans are natural beings endowed with everything to survive in nature.

But ...to survive in culture as a natural being one certainly has to be conditioned in this or that way to look at nature."

..........He goes well beyond saying just that --- or at least, beyond the commonsense version of that. For instance, when you say, "Humans are natural beings endowed with everything to survive in nature", that isn't quite true, is it? Not unless you include our intelligence and our culture amongst our "endowments". Without our intelligence, our artifice if you will ("artifice" not in the sense of dishonesty, but "artifice" as opposed to "natural-ness"), and without our culture, we'd be hard-pressed to survive, far less to thrive as we humans have thrived.

I do object to this kind of nonsense being peddled as some kind of deep transcendent wisdom. See this bilge, from the short selection that Brian's quoted: ""The body is highly intelligent and does not need these scientific or theological teachings to survive and procreate." What the actual fuck. Like I'd said, sure, the body (or the mind, or the body-mind, whatever) doesn't need theology, fine. But the body doesn't need science? Really? If that isn't crazy, what is?

And as for this: "Life has no beginning and no end. A dead and dying body feeds the hungry ants there in the grave, and rotting corpses give off soil-enriching chemicals, which in turn nourish other life forms. You cannot put an end to your life, it is impossible. " Again, what nonsense. Life does have a beginning, and it does have an end. And to state that the atoms of your body will be dispersed into the world, et cetera --- fine, if you're merely countering religious mumbo jumbo, that makes some kind of sense. But to someone who isn't already blinded by superstitious nonsense, this is pure bull shit. Because if at all one is troubled by the idea of death, then what one is troubled by is the cessation of one's transitory sentience. To think of the atoms of my body tomorrow becoming a part of the body of an orang utan, or of a star, what difference can that possibly make to me? If my sentience is gone, what difference does it make to me if all the atoms of my body were straightaway vaoporized into pure energy, never again to become any kind of matter? Life tantamounts to sentience, and to speak of the endlessness of the matter that makes up my body, that is obfuscation pure and simple.

Sorry, I'm getting carried away, I realize, ranting just a little bit. No doubt I'm ending up giving far more time and thought to UGK's bull shit than it deserves. But it's nonsense, at the end of the day. Nonsense, albeit like I said with the saving grace that apparently it does, somehow, help some folks to break free of superstitions, so to that extent, okay, fine, good.

[um]

@ AR

The point is not what U.G. says and whether it is true or not but that it upsets you.
The key to that being upset and triggered is to be found in the house of AR and not in the street where UG talks to whosoever want to discuss with him .. finding pleasure in how these people all, without exception stumble over their own intellectual feet and fall flat on their faces.

If you have one day walk that whole road of rationalism you will understand him.

Whether there is more to it than UG says, that is an whole other matter.

People take their so called knowledge far to serious and forget that BEFORE what they take so serious people had to and did survive.

Living a natural life in a natural way ...is what its is all about.
To find out what that means in a culture is another matter.

[Pete]

So @uchit , I just read on wikipedia's that Krishnamurthy dissolved the order of the star cult which had a huge following. Why can't GSD of the RSSB " religion " do exactly the same. Proves where GSDs morals lie, what a total scumbag. GSD wants to create a following of brainless sheep. Isn't it about time GSD dissolved RSSB, or has he got too much vested interest in hiding behind a guru's mask.

[Manoj]

Krishnamurti was a beautiful enlightened soul who chose to speak his truth which resonated volumes.

Not like the false and foolish doctorine baba of today like Soulless Gurinder Singh Dhillion & The Radha Soami Cult.
Who constantly loves liying and finds it very liberating to make idiots out off millions.

Always taking and talking about other religious teachings on stage himself.

I guess he has nothing to say about his own experiences thats because he's proberly never had one.

And so he tells all other satsangis as well to never talk about theres too. Funny old world full of that smelly stuff, shite.

Better to come clean Gurinder Singh Dhillion maybe you too could learn a thing or two from the likes of a Real wise enlightened man , Krishnamurti

[Tendzin]

I agree with AR on UG, although I think the "no search" spiritual meme has value in nuance. A book that was very influential for some myself and other exers (from at least some parts of RS orthodoxy) is Chogyam Trungpa's Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism. It debunks the notion that getting to this or that plane will result in spiritual goods. Jiddu Krishnamurti takes this deconstruction a bit further. UG on the other hand flits with outright nihilism.

But then again, nihilism is in the eye of the beholder. One could argue that religious belief is itself nihilistic to the degree that it detracts from positive social function in the here and now.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"If what you have is to be had that simple ... give it to the people."

This makes no sense to me at all. Every flower opens precisely as predetermined. It's all there already.

You wrote
"Does your family has arrive at your inner stage?"

My parents were mystics, each in there own way.

If there is a path, naturally each person will be on it at a different stage. We are all behind those who long ago reached their destination.

All that matters, as my parents and Master taught me, is my own next step, and doing what I can to take it.

You wrote
"Your friends?
Your neighbourhood,
Your city,"
Your state..
If not,how come spence ..."

See above. What do they not have? What is missing? Um, nothing is missing.

Your choice to move ahead if you choose and are willing to do the work. Then listen to the man in the mirror.

[Spence Tepper]

Um
There is a beautiful adage in mysticism. "When the student is ready, the Master comes."

We are in school already. Our qualification for the next class is our current level of consciousness, and desire for progress. All the pieces, so the tools are here. Even the kind words of a beggar can be our teacher. The whole creation can be our teacher. Our critics can be our teacher. There is no end to good teachers, and we find them or they find us when we seek and are ready.

This whole creation is a school always with the purpose of progress. All creation is working towards that. And as we align with that purpose and direction within ourselves there is no end of good assistance.

It is only incumbent upon us to be good students.

[Solomon]

“When the student is ready the teacher appears.

When the student is truly ready the teacher disappears."

There is a Divine guidance available to us that will meet us in specific ways when we are ready.

The universe will give us the support and guidance that we need the moment we are open to it.

Finally, “when the student is truly ready, the teacher disappears.” - this reflects a key fact that:

“The only purpose of the outer guru is to lead to the inner guru.”

[um]

@ Spence

If I would be like you i would speak like you....
Whatever you write here only applies to you, it tells your tale.

It is of no help to others, that is the reason why I asked about those that are in close contact with you.

If i didn't help them how can it possibly help those that are just reading your words.here?!

[um]

@ Solomon

Well, well ...when the outer relation was at its peak, we shook hands, never to be seen one another, neither in nor outward.

The dear friend that was with us and shook hands with him, met his inner master soon there after, but turned his back upon the the outer master and lost all interest, in what was once so near and dear to him [us]

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"If i didn't help them how can it possibly help those that are just reading your words.here?!"

What is the "It" you are speaking of?
We may be speaking of two separate things.

I'm referring to the 'it' that is silently helping each of us, though many are not aware of it or in touch with it.

You wrote "If it didn't help them..."

That is impossible, Um. The "it" I refer to Births all life and both nurtures and sustains each of us. You could not take a single breath without His support.

Aware of it, one lives in that atmosphere with their Master.

Unaware, one lives under the illusion they are separate, unconnected to this reality and alone.

But that is an illusion, Um.

All life could not exist without this "it" I am referring to. The "it" you are referring to is something I have no knowledge of. If it exists, I've not seen it. Apparently it is something that can be powerless to help others. That must be something man - made, artificial, but in truth I can't say.

[um]

@ Solomon

In the book that speaks of your wisdom, something mysterious is stated.
It says:
"From those that have will be taken and to those that have will be given.

[Spence Tepper]

Um
One more point.
If it is time for you to find this "it" nothing in heaven or earth can stop you from connecting to "it."

Begging is part of the process. But that can't begin until you have at least some conception of it. That conception is Him speaking to you, reaching out to you.

Then, naturally, you will find your teacher or they will find you. There is no difference, except that, in truth, we do nothing. We move under His power.

But if we are not moving, then a good teacher can help you. Progress includes getting stuck, revising your approach, fixing things, and moving forward. A good teacher can help there. That could just be a good friend. If you are willing to bare your soul to a friend, maybe they can help you.

No two seconds are the same. Reality is moving forward all the time, and so should each of us.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You quoted
""From those that have will be taken and to those that have will be given."

I only recall the quote from Christ
"Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them."
Matthew 13:12

Christ is referring to those who are aware and thus submit to that inner Spirit, and those who are blind and have no awareness of that spirit and therefore take no action. Their life will end just like everyone else's, but they will have lost the opportunity

But in another place he says all that matters is your attitude towards it. If you know it, you are saved even in this life. But even if you are not aware and submit in prayer, begging for it, in full faith, you will also receive it, even at some time after this life.

"The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die."
John 11; 25-26

So, own your fate, Um, as it is part of your destiny... And own your faith, as this is the way to the One connecting all life.

[Spence Tepper]

Time gets a bad wrap. The first is only now, every thing else is seconds.

[um]

@ Spence
.
Yes that was the quote, and yes its meaning is clear..

Just ask your self for a moment what your intentions are for writing.

Can you not accept that others do not, can not have what you have and rejoice in it?

Again those around you, are they poor believers, people that cannot believe in him???!!
Is it in their hands?
In yours?
Do you think that it suffices to tell them to believe for beliefe to raise?

For all your education and all your experiences you seem not to grasp certain things., simple things.

[um]

@ Spence

>>n ......But if we are not moving, then a good teacher can help you.....>>GIVEN ...GIVEN ....GIVEN

ANd .... Spence Tepper ... if they are not given they are just not there!!

AND ... he goes on to say, to me that there is NOTHING, NOTHING I can do about it.

I do accept it to be true.

[um]

Spence

Again fate played a game with the messages .. i am not going to repeat it.

It was related to his saying that for a person, you Spence Tepper, to say I eat, as you write here again and again, there must me 2 conditions fullfiled there must be food on the table and there must be hunger. Both are GIVEN.
Hunger interms of all the things you suggest to others to do are .. GIVEN.
If they are not there, he goes on to put before me there is NOTHING one can do.

Its is all in his hands. ... and you spence tepper ... you talk like a priest.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"If they are not there, he goes on to put before me there is NOTHING one can do."

It may be that you heard this a little out of context.

Each of us is in our place on the journey of progress. You can do nothing to change where you are....
But,.... And this is what makes all the difference... You are moving forward, or you can say you are being moved forward, and you can actually participate in that!

Yes, you have a part to play.

There are two steps involved.
1. As you wrote, accept your fate. Nothing can be done about that.
2. What you missed... Embrace your faith! So that you may see, witness, understand, and participate in partnership, your progress. This is where joy is.

Through Faith, Everything, even daily things, are accomplished. And in that act of creation, in partnership with the Creator, there is our true essence and joy. Our real nature is there.

[albert]

Brian, my friend: "albert, why do you believe in life after death? What convincing evidence is there of this? Didn't Krishnamurti just speak the truth, that everyone sees death occurring, but no one sees life after death happening? Life after death is a religious concept, not something real."

I sympathize with your query. The life-force is not some-thing, not a substance...it is ESSENCE. It cannot be measured by any material means, not even by the finest scientific instruments simply because all measuring instruments are made of matter. Life-Force is non-material. Life-Force is Spirit, Itself. This is why there is eternal controversy regarding Its entrance into the baby's body...as well as Its exit upon death.

Life-Force is the animating power of all life-forms. It is Divine and of the same Essence as the Supreme Being. It is not of the worlds of matter or mind, but is a stranger here. It is also immortal and cannot be hurt, harmed or killed. Be happy about that.

Because your Life-Force will continue after this life, Brian, and your body and brain will return to dust.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"Do you think that it suffices to tell them to believe for beliefe to raise?"

Where did you get that idea?
All of creation moves each of us along.

As for your telling me that doing so is pointless, isn't that pointlessness too?

When Joy is within you, and your own Master has told you this, where is the source of your complaint?

I am what I am, Um, and this is my nature, the one given me by God.

[um]

@ Spence

When you would not have publicly stated to have reached Sach khand, seeing and speaking to your inner master and that master not going by the same name as the one I met in India ... I would never have said much to you if at all..there would have been no reason for me.

What you wrote would be then just a description of your thoughts etc, opinions etc etc. an to me these things are just like tastes everybody is entitled to

But in the way you write, you reach out to me!

You see that is a thing the man in Beas never ever did with nobody and THAT is the the main point.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
Please do not take my comments as a personal judgement of you or anyone.

We are discussing philosophy.