How religions disable our reasoning practices

Here's a marvelous excerpt from Andy Norman's book, "Mental Immunity: Infectious Ideas, Mind-Parasites, and the Search for a Better Way to Think." 

I read it this morning and realized it's a terrific way to explain what's wrong with the irrationality of religion. Norman imagines that someone wants to figure out how to best undermine human reasoning that enables us to distinguish truth from falsehoods, what's real from what's illusory. 

As you'll read below, what results is... (no big surprise) religion. 

Imagine yourself part of a team charged with stress-testing civilization's all-important reasoning practices. The team has an initial meeting, and the question is posed: How can we best disrupt human reasoning practices? The task is then clarified: How can we cause not just temporary disruption, but lasting damage?

"We" would probably begin with a little reverse-engineering: we'd take apart the mechanism and see how it works. This would lead us to the lever-like functioning of reasons and the key role of reason's fulcrum. We'd come to realize that our reasoning practices hinge on a norm that requires us to accommodate ourselves to good reasons.

Then we'd ask: How can we disable this norm?

We might start by creating a loophole in the requirement. Specifically, we could grant that yielding to better reasons is often a good thing, but deny that it's always a good thing. Certain beliefs, we might argue, are too important to be hostage to rational fortune.

Then we'd carve out an exemption and insist that convictions X, Y, and Z belong to a special, protected class. We might call these convictions "articles of faith."

Then, we could spread the good news that this exemption exists.

We'd probably appeal, first, to those who resent rational constraint and explain that on certain subjects, it's okay to believe and assert things without evidence. From there, we could extend the exemption to claims that fly in the face of evidence -- things made unlikely by, or directly contradicted by, facts.

Claims about miracles and virgin birth, for example.

Of course, we might need to traverse this path gradually, giving people time to acclimate to each expansion of the rationality exemption. We could hasten the decline of rational standards by making some articles of faith mandatory: not just permissible, but required. In fact, we could make them nonnegotiable -- the mental equivalent of the immovable object.

The beauty of this approach is that, once such articles of faith are installed, efforts to dislodge them further degrade reason's fulcrum. The lever is obstructed, and something's got to give. A glance at history confirms that we're on to something here: reasoning practices are highly vulnerable to such stresses.

Next, we could sell people on the idea that credulity is virtue. 

We could promise fantastic rewards for those who believe and threaten terrifying punishments for those who doubt. We could invent a being capable of delivering such rewards and punishments and make people fear him. Why can't you see this being? Because he's invisible. Why does he need you to believe in him? Never mind: just take our word for it. Why can't we see others experiencing their rewards and punishments? Because all that happens in the afterlife.

If all of this seems patently ridiculous, so much the better -- by which I mean, so much the worse for rationality norms. As the Red Queen told Alice in Wonderland: believing impossible things takes practice. 

A saboteur of rational accountability norms must take this to heart. To wreak real havoc, you've got to think big. Go big or go home. Tepid irrationality is for chumps. Real saboteurs wield patently unreasonable claims. When called on it, they double down on the delusion: that's the way to do real damage to rationality norms. 

We can also stigmatize those who take epistemic standards seriously. If they're outspoken, we can demonize them. We can label them, say, infidels, heretics, heathens, apostates, or blasphemers. We can teach believers to shun and hate them. We can instruct believers to kill nonbelievers (as sacred texts sometimes do). 

Only a few believers need to follow through: the rest of the nonbelievers usually get the message and stop enforcing rationality norms. A little intimidation goes a long way.

We could also harness identity-protective cognition. The idea, again, is that people will usually bend rationality norms in order to protect their identity. The thing to do, then, is get people hooked on one or another ideological identity -- preferably before they're old enough to understand the consequences.

We could saddle children with the identities of their parents. Install an ideological identity early enough, and identity-protective thinking will often be with that person for life. From then on, challenges to identity-defining beliefs will feel offensive and somehow unfair. This is sure to damage reason's fulcrum. 

We can also harness humanity's tribal instincts. We can build communities around arbitrary doctrinal differences and have the members of these communities validate each other's defiance of rationality norms. Us-versus-them stories can be counted on to stir deep emotions and skew rational judgment.

We can exploit humanity's "mattering instinct"-- our need to feel that our lives matter.

To do this, just sell a group on the idea that they're God's chosen people. Or better yet, that God has some mysterious mission for them. Faced with temptation like that, rational resolution often crumbles. Mattering myths are highly seductive -- and useful for subverting rationality norms.

We could exploit the evolved  brain's penchant for kin sympathy. Those who share the tenets of the faith, for example, could be called "brother" or "sister." We could exploit our natural deference to authority. Authority figures in the community could be called "father" or "mother superior." The sky being at the center of the big myth could be referred to as "lord" or "king."

We could confer status on the most aggesssibe champions of the faith, calling them "reverend," "holy father," "guru," or "ayatollah." We could give these champions a platform and an audience -- a "pulpit," say, and a "flock." They could use this platform to publicly violate rationality norms and celebrate the defiant disregard of such norms. 

Stories glorifying the sort of blind faith that Abraham had for God would be especially useful. (The founding parable of the so-called Abrahamic religions involves a father, Abraham, willing to sacrifice his son to prove his devotion to God.) See Abraham's breathtaking willingness to sacrifice not only his reason but also his son? The clear implication is that that's the sort of faith to aspire to.

We could develop a concept of the "sacred" or "holy" that paints certain things as too precious to question. We could label entire lines of inquiry profane. Or sacrilegious. We could promote contempt for intellectual virtues and deride rationality norms as "scientism run amok." 

Comments

[Sonia]

But isn’t communist ideology a form of religion as well? And the most prominent communist countries are Atheist.

Right now the biggest enemy the world is facing isn’t an ideology, it’s a virus. Our actions in this life must respect the laws of nature. However, reason has never proved more defenseless than it does right now. Religion vs Reason. Facts vs Faith. Humans can rationalize anything. That’s the chink in Reason’s armor.

Get vaxxed or get taxed. Or move to Texas (new home of The Handmaid’s Tale). I’m sick and tired of trying to reason with people about the seriousness of this pandemic, and trying to convince everyone to wear a mask and get vaccinated. It’s a culling of the population. It’s here to stay for several years until scientists can create a transmissible vaccine. Until then 😷

[um]

If one would put one's watch on a table, how would anybody be able to scientifically conclude it belongs to this or that person?

The concept of "mine" etc is an abstract attribution to an object that has no existence of itself in the sense that it can be measured ... it is an fiction. .... an useful fiction.

Humans have developed many of these fictive tools, in fact the whole construct of what we call culture and society, are nothing but ..... fictions.

Whatever humans have developed for their use can be used in a positive or negative way .

Religion is a cultural tool with all its advantages and disadvantages, uses and misuses.

Strange the public outcry against things that were created long ago to the advantage of some and misfortune of others, things that by now become things of the past.

In the Western part of Europe, Religion, like the rule by nobility, are things of the past and play only a ceremonial role and have no power to command.

Strange because it diverts the attention from the modern forms of power that is used to the advantage of some and the misfortune of others.

Anyway ... anything that has been developed by humans that has lost its purpose, is discarded along the road of evolution.

[Appreciative Reader]

"How can we best disrupt human reasoning practices?"

..........Heh, "we" might include in our arsenal, along with the other measures you've mentioned up there, some argumentum ad consequentiam as well, mightn't we? Specifically, some "ektimotheos". Unless one is very careful to very carefully spell out every nuance of one's position, then that kind of thing --- that we were discussing in your previous blog post ---- might well degenerate into something like that.

I won't actually call people out by name, but right here in the comments on your blog we see so many instances of this, of this "ektimotheos" first being introduced and argued for literally, and then stretched via fallacious appeals to consequence into equivocation about the truth value of some clearly indefensible position.

[Tendzin]

Another example of how progressives never tire of dreaming up ways to control other people, even to the point of what they believe. Why? Because the author says that religious beliefs harm other people, and the proof of that is:

"We can instruct believers to kill nonbelievers (as sacred texts sometimes do)."

I believe it's been well over 2000 years since any authority in a Judeo-Christian organization authorized followers to kill non-believers. You'd have to go deep into the Old Testament to find references to that, and those references would invariably be in the context of ancient tribal warfare and survival.

But of course there is a religion today that preaches the righteousness of death to infidels, but the author doesn't have the guts to name it. Instead, he pretends that all religions are an equal menace to civilized behavior.

[um]

@ Tendzin

>>I believe it's been well over 2000 years since any authority in a Judeo-Christian organization authorized followers to kill non-believers. <<

What about:
- The inquisition?
- the was against the kathars?
- the hunting down of so called witches

And Tendzin ... just ponder how great parts of the world came to have [1] an foreign language, English, Spanish, Portuguese, french etc! and [2] an foreign religion!

That has been possible by TERROR by countries with small populations.

Again, religion is an cultural tool and like all tools it can be used for the welfare of people but also their misery.

Of course religion has brought also welfare

Talking about religion as the cause of anything diverts from what is realy at hand .... humans seeking their own goals.

[Brian Hines]

Tendzin, as um noted, there are plenty of examples of Judeo-Christian killing in more recent times than 2000 years ago. Check out the European Wars of Religion on Wikipedia, where religion was a factor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion

Likewise, leaders in the United States frequently invoke "God is on our side" Christian dogma in defending our wars. Politicians frequently end a speech with "God bless our troops." Yes, Muslims engage in some of the most overt religious killing, but the Judeo-Christian religion has blood on its hands also.

Support for Israel frequently is justified by fundamentalists on Biblical grounds. So that helps keep conflict going in that region, since both sides consider their position to be religiously justified.

[Spence Tepper]

Naturally everyone thinks they are being rational, logical, sensible. And each for their own completely rational and sensible concrete reasons.

It is only when we look at other people who hold different beliefs that we recoil with what appears to be non - sensical, absurd, archaic, parochial, biased, ignorant and ethnocentric. It's always the other guys. ;)

[Sonia]

Emmm… I’m pretty sure Hitler, Stalin and Mao weren’t religious and yet they excelled at bloodletting and torture just as much as their religious counterparts.

Just sayin’ let’s be fair.

Governments and organizations headed up by nonbelievers have created just as much havoc as governments and organizations lead by people of faith.

It’s not your Faith that makes you a good person, it’s what you do based on what’s in your heart.

People subscribe to religions like they subscribe to magazines. One’s faith of “choice” is most largely influenced by cultural and family. It’s practically like osmosis. You marry an atheist and you slowly adopt those beliefs. Or you might be agnostic and marry a Christian and slowly start to adopt Christian principles.

But one’s subscribed belief system is rather abstract in a way. It’s not “who you are”. I hope you don’t try to wrap your entire identity into a narrow little title like Christian, Atheist, Jew, Muslim. That would be very sad indeed.

[Ron E.]

Quite a fun way (and relevant) to highlight religion; interestingly the same logic could be applied to any belief system. Take nationalism for example:-

Nationalists belong to a special class - the country they were accidentally born into.
Get them to worship a symbol - the flag.
Have a rousing national song - an anthem.
Rewards for believers - countrymen first.
Harness identity-protective cognition - protects ego/nationalist ego.
Harness tribal instincts.
Teach sacred stories, state and hero-worship - stories in the form of (often) questionable history.

[Appreciative Reader]

"... interestingly the same logic could be applied to any belief system ..." (Posted by: Ron E. | September 18, 2021 at 06:03 AM)

.................Reminds me of Steven Weinberg's quote: "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil --- that takes religion."

Agreed, religion is not the only culprit. Substitute "religion" with, for instance, and as you say, "nationalism", or any deeply held ideology, and the exact same thing might be said.

Which is not to take away from the horror that is religion, especially organized religion. Two reasons why:

(1) That religion is not the only scourge afflicting humankind, and that there are other baleful institutions that have the same kind of potential for evil, is not to take away from the evil that religion is and represents. It is a fact that this corona virus thing isn't the only ailment afflicting us. Take it away, and we're still left with a hundred and one other diseases that may yet kill us off. That does not take away from the fact that this virus is a dangerous affliction, that we must get rid of as soon as we can. Similarly, the fact that there are a hundred other mind-viruses that might afflict us, does not take away from the evil that religion is and does.

(2) There is the question of what is true and what is not. Unless one subscribes to some post-truth Trumpian horror of "anything goes" philosophy, there is a distinction between what is true and what is not. It is one thing to base an ideology on truth; and it is a different thing to base one's ideology not so much on objective truth but on subjective opinion; and it is a whole different thing altogether to follow an ideology that is based on falsehood masquerading as truth. Admittedly all three kinds of ideologies can prove baleful; but to have to suffer the avoidable ill effects of an ideology based on factual falsehood masquerading as factual truth, that is what is, to my mind, the most abhorrent of the three.

-------

As for "How religions disable our reasoning practices": We've had a jaw-dropping demonstration of exactly that in one of the comments on this thread. I will do that commenter the courtesy of not directly naming names, but any unbiased reader going through this thread is bound to be struck by the sheer irony, and a more convincing QED it probably wouldn't be possible to devise if one tried.

[Di]

Sadly society has evolved (or devolved) to this point where, more so than ever, every group or organization wants to hollow us out and fill us with their systematized missions in the name of progress.

George Orwell has described it clearly below:

“Never again will you be capable of love, or friendship, or joy of living, or laughter, or curiosity, or courage, or integrity. You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty, and then we shall fill you with ourselves." “If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—forever.”

[Sonia]

Yes, George Orwell, the eternal optimist…

I think there’s always hope, always a better way if we persevere and continuously seek to grow, learn and improve. Only the arrogant ignorantly believe that the human spirit is too weak to withstand extreme adversity. History has proven many times that even a small group of people can overcome what may appear to be overwhelming obstacles, by working together to achieve a common goal.

[Manoj]

How religions disable our reasoning practices

Not only that they deceive and dismember the human souls evolution.

Like misleading and altering the perception of reality and creating an illusionary religious cult like Radha Soami.

The Master who knows the real reality still believes that his role in deception is worth its price in gold to inslave mankind for his wicked God, Satan ( kaal).
How selfish a Fake Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillion you are, sold out for a few days of name and fame. Utter shambles

[Spence Tepper]

Even every new idea must face blistering criticism that it has never been, nor has it ever been necessary.

People must be taught to consider possibilities outside their experience and thinking.

That is actually, the great achievement of science, technology, and spirituality. That every grain of truth is not what most people expected. It is outside of rational thinking, which is limited only to what a person already knows, and even less, only to what they believe they know.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Shakespeare (from Hamlet)

[Dungeness]

@ Andy Norman, author : [ We could promote contempt for intellectual virtues and deride rationality norms as "scientism run amok." ]

Only when such contempt and/or derision becomes blatant anti-theism...

[Dungeness]

@Dungeness : [ Only when such contempt and/or derision becomes blatant anti-theism... ]

Make that : "Only when such 'intellectual virtues' and 'rationality norms' become
blatant anti-theism..."

[Spence Tepper]

When "intellectualism" is reduced to inventing scientific sounding explanations without any actual evidence or experimentation, then it is false,

It is creating the illusion of knowledge as a cheap and lazy replacement for the search for knowledge.

[Spence Tepper]

Knowledge is not a description of truth.
It is that truth.

[Spence Tepper]

Atheism is a good bridge but a lousy destination.

You can't build a home on a foundation of air.

Atheism is the original vaporware: It advertises itself as truth but offers nothing. Then it goes on, like the worst sales pitch, to try to convince you that nothing is really better than anything, And like a terrible competitor, having nothing to offer, must run down its competition.

[Spence Tepper]

However, nothing is indeed much better than hate.

Love is better than nothing. But only a universal love. Not a love that leads to hate, but a love that encompasses all. A love yes, for the Hindu, for the Muslim, for the Jew, for the Atheist, even for Trump, Hitler and Biden.

A love that honors the forced of life in all, and teaches us, if we take the timer to listen, how to live in a way that nurtures that love, so that we live in that love and become a resource of love what those around us are empty, or worse, surrounded by hate.

[Spence Tepper]

For that love, Atheism is the essential bridge. You must leave this planet's cultures and systems of hate /belief altogether to find what is actually within you.

Then Atheism brings you to a new shore, and a new Faith based on Truth, that love is in us all and all we are actually made of.

[um]

@ Spence

Reading your messages here makes me feel an emotional autist of sorts.

I can write the words, love and hate .... but I have never use these words in sentences ... I, You, he /she , we or they love/hate etc etc.

And I hope to die that way

Nor were these words used, by the people I came to know during my life. be they family, friends or whomever.

Only part certain protestants, followers of Rudolph Steiner, the hippies, do use these words, from early morning to late evening and of course those satsangis with such an background.

[um]

And .. Spence

I do remember your master, again an again advising people to "do their DUTIES" ... i can really not remeber even ONE incident in which he said that one should love one another.

Actually, he had not that much regard for the human capacity to love and would time and again say that the feelings of a mother for her just born child was the closest to what deserves the name love.

Would he be as emotional autistic as I feel?

[Charlie Brown]

Love love love love love love love love

Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate

Love hate love hate love hate love hate

It’s all the same.

[Ron E.]

Now here's a thought - everyone is born an atheist, then conditioned into the belief system of their particular time and culture - by using Andy Norman's set of mind manipulation techniques?

[Dungeness]

@ Charlie Brown : [ Love hate love hate love hate love hate
It’s all the same. ]

Shallowly, yes. Love quickly morphs to hate when Lucy pulls the football away
though.

[Uchit]

The whole purpose of the satanic mantra of RSSB is to go into automatic trance state which completely knocks out your reasoning and logical mind - the only defence against the virus. In the trance state you are open to suggestions and programming by entities that want to manipulate you for their benefit and the benefit of the cult. Gurinder Singh dhillon and RSSB institution are nothing but very clever and dangerous manipulators, using snidey and snakey tactics to capture the innocent sangats minds who fall for the feeling and emotions and the masses of the sheepish brainwashed sangat. They question nothing, and just go with the flow and a false sense of happiness and false promises. Gurinder singh dhillon you know you are a crook and an evil guru and you have been unmasked as the narcissist you are yet hiding desperatly behind an illusion of a God. You are exposed as a control freak, womaniser, materialistic, land mafia with zero compassion for the peoples lives you destroy. To be aware is to be forewarned and armed.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
Maharaji said, unequivocally, and repeatedly, that the Path of the Masters IS the path of Love, IS Bhakti itself.

When Gurinder Singh was asked if one should give up love for truth he said we should raise our love, and on a platform of love, find the truth.

[spence Tepper]

Hi Um!
You wrote:
" i can really not remember even ONE incident in which he said that one should love one another."

Actually on one of the recordings, Maharaji was asked by a woman "Can you please take a few moments to speak to us about Love?"

And Maharaji replied ' What have we been speaking about all this time? This path is nothing but love."

Gurinder was asked once in Fayetteville "Should we give up love in order to find Truth?" and he replied, 'No. We should raise our love. So that on a platform of Love we will find the truth."

And the Saints echo this sentiment
'When I look in the eyes of another I see the Lord."

It is natural to see and to serve the Lord in all, and that is how we conduct true Seva, selflessly, in service to Him, through those we help.

Actually, as Maharaji said, this is just the Lord loving Himself, through us. We are a vehicle only. But a vehicle that can carry Love.

Maharaji said that people are here in part to help each other. We should not look upon Sant Mat as distinct from how we treat each other.

He was once asked "When we get a promotion and are a boss, what kind of boss should we be?"

And Maharaji answered "A loving boss. Be a loving boss."

Maharaji spoke of Love quite frequently.

[um]

@ Spence

He did not and you know that.

Do you think I was unaware of what you write here about both of them, when I posted that reaction? Those who know me that I can recall him verbatim.

I am neither dementing nor intending to make him seen in an adverse way.

Just compare how you and others here speak about love and how he did and you will understand.

It is not about HIM, nor his nephew .... it is about YOU Spence!!! and those who open their mouth as you do about love. ... USING ... oir ... better said MISUSING the word.

[um]

@ Spence

>>Actually on one of the recordings, Maharaji was asked by a woman "Can you please take a few moments to speak to us about Love?"

And Maharaji replied ' What have we been speaking about all this time? This path is nothing but love."<<

What to love is the question.

Love is god and god is love.

Where was that love to be experienced?
What was that path all about but leading towards that love, that god.

How did he qualify this world?
With what did he compare it?
With prison cells, burning houses etc

This path was not to bring love into this world, turning B classes prison cells into A classes but to show how to leave this world behind, how to open the door of that prisonhouse.

That path is meant to release the soul from the mind, the senses and this world. It is not meant to give any sort of psychic help to anyone, nor for finding any truth at any other place in this world. It is not meant for any ulterior motive but to show the soul the path to its own home.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You write
"This path was not to bring love into this world, turning B classes prison cells into A classes but to show how to leave this world behind, how to open the door of that prisonhouse."

Yes, that is by love, Um. And love alone. This is the path of Bhakti. There is no hatred in this path, only love.

And where do you find that love? Within yourself. You are made of it.

And when you can come and go as you please, you can't go anywhere that love is not, neither here or anywhere else.

The prison are your own impressions. Withdraw from those and there is only light and only love.

[Rodney]

That path is meant to release the soul from the mind, the senses and this world. It is not meant to give any sort of psychic help to anyone, nor for finding any truth at any other place in this world. It is not meant for any ulterior motive but to show the soul the path to its own home.
Posted by: um | September 24, 2021 at 12:56 PM

The path may be as how you describe. But no harm being a good, caring, loving and kind human being. Afterall wouldn't God want you to be this way towards his creation?

[Rodney]

Religions in their current form are WMD's

The underlying teachings of mystics and prophets is what matters.

[um]

@ Rodney

>>But no harm being a good, caring, loving and kind human being<<

Of course there is no harm to it.
Did I suggest that?
I don't think so

Let me indirectly make a point what I am hitting at:

In the past there have been many requests from western [Christian] followers to create charitable institutions, to start with homes for their own elderly. That was always refused.

Christianity is the top runner of charitable initiatives and that differs also by cultural background and denomination. Protestants are more invilved than others.

It was even advised to to leave the path of ones life for this or that charitable goal, but if on one's path a person would need help, it had to be given.

It was also said that one can be bound to this world bu chains of gold as not all people are able to give in such a way that the left doesn't know from the right hand.

If you grasp what is said here, you will understand why the advise was not given to love the people one was bound to, but to do one's duties towards them and not getting emotional involved in these ties or the persons involved. Always remembering that all roles we have to play and the people to meet are ..karmic.

The release from this prison house, this vale of misery, cannot be found by binding one's self by chains of gold.

Than there is that warning that one has to pay even for the single grain one picked without paying for it. That warning holds also for the reverse. Whatever has been given in charity, has to be returned. Writing it, makes me laugh, thinking of how it might be read by some here ... hahaha

And what I write is not about these teachings and teachers but about the way it is used to make it seen other than it is.

I would suggest all to delve in the index of the books and find the answers given under the heading "charity"

Spiritual schools and traditions are not international relief organisations, or something like the Salvation Army.

I guess you might have read many a biography of great mystics ... they all speak of lives in remote places, in the deserts, mountains and forests.... about solitude.
Even today there are these monasteries, were people life in order to separate themselves from the hustle and bustle of life, in all its forms, be it negative or positive.
Yes they might pray for the welfare of the world but they, they want to be left alone and not involved.

The teachings of Christ, has been turned into welfare organisations. He taught that the kingdom of heaven was to be found inside and what have the priests made of it? Something to be payed out as an drama on the stages of the world.

All mystic schools in the end are turned into religions ....as there is more light in the streets while the key has been lost inside the house.

[um]

Error:

It was even advised to to leave the path of ones life for this or that charitable goal, but if on one's path a person would need help, it had to be given.

It should read as .......NOT to leave

[Spence Tepper]

If you cannot see the Lord in others, family, friends, Co - workers, even enemies, then that is no path you are on.

To love all is a natural human condition that has been re-conditioned by too much time here.

There is no fear losing your life in right action. That is a complete misunderstanding of the Path to our source.

We have our first responsibility, our own progress, and then the second, to complete our time here to the highest standards of love and helpfulness.

It is all to our credit if we give it all to Him.

This notion that the two are in conflict is wrong. It is a matter of balance.

But Seva given sincerely to anyone is actually giving to God Himself.

The Beggar you help is Maharaji himself.

The two must be brought in together, or there is no progress at all, that's just a delusion.

No Saint in Sant Mat or anywhere else ever said to ignore the suffering of others. None, zero. Zed.

[um]

@ Spence"

>>The Beggar you help is Maharaji himself.>The two must be brought in together, or there is no progress at all, that's just a delusion.>No Saint in Sant Mat or anywhere else ever said to ignore the suffering of others. None, zero. Zed.>>

NOR ... did thet say to go out of you path, to search it.

You are transforming the teachings to fit you christian ideology.

That is all right ... but ... it remains a transformation. ... unasked for, without their consent and knowledge.

[um]

@ spence

This again was an corrupted message, how it happens I just do not know.

I am not goin to repair it

What you wrote is your interpreation, you transformation, these are all YOUR words, ... NOT ... his.

He never said to go out of one's way to help others, to search for the possibility to help. If one was face with a another human being, crossing once path, of course that person had to be helped.

Nor did he say that, the help given to others was the help given to him.

Let alone that he ever said that helping people in this world was an sine qua non for progress on the path.

The founders of this path, set an example, by meditating in seclusion. In their teachings they just said NOTHING from what you are trying to do here.

The highest seva, speaking about seva, was meditation ... you know that and you cannot come up with even one answer from Him that he suggested satsangis had to get invilved in social work.

[um]

@ Spence

Let me be clear about it for all to read.

I have nothing to say or to comment on what others do with their lives, that is up to them, and them alone.

The problem I have is with, making things seen other than they are, presenting them, in another person name, without his knowledge and consent, giving personal interpretations as the very truth.

What ever teacher I cam to listen to, of whatever spiritual path, or whatever book I read from mystics, from all over the place, not one .... not one ... did write or said a word about charitative activities as they are usual practice by protestants.

What I wrote is not an request, to leave charitable activities by side, if it is one cup of tea ... by all means dring it, enjoy it and have another cup of tea.

I met the Christian priest Enomiya Lassalle, who had his own monastery in Japan, and lectured in many European monasteries, meditated with him. listened to his discourses on Zen. No word was said about Charitas ... NONE ... NONE !!!

It doesn't matter what my opinion is on the matter ... but what matters is having people said things they never did. nor could have done as they were all bound to a tradition, that didn't allow it.

These were all schools about meditation, spiritual work. Whatever they had to say about live in general was, the question of activities in the world would contributed an help or were in obstacle, for the development of inner observance.

[Appreciative Reader]

Hello, Spence, and um.

This is an interesting discussion, that you two have ended up having here.

(1) Is charity, and "love", a necessary part of the spiritual path? That is a very interesting question in itself, and a very broad one too.

(2) Do RSSB masters hold up charity, and love, as a necessary part of the spiritual path? This is a way more focused question, and, I think, a question that admits of fairly unequivocal resolution. I agree, um, what you yourself think about this subject, or what Spence himself think about this subject, is wholly irrelevant to answering this focused auestion. All you need to do is present actual quotes from RSSB books and/or RSSB masters' speeches, and in that way make your case.

I'm in no way qualified to weigh in on this, but I'd be interested in the resolution, if the two of you would care to take your argument to its end, by presenting evidence. Of course, given that it is Spence who's claiming the centrality of charity and love, it is to him that the burden of proof lies to present evidence (in the form not of his own personal ideas, but in the form of RSSB masters' words --- as far as this focused question, that is). On the other hand, you, um, can, I suppose make your argument stronger if you can present evidence that RSSB masters have actually spoken of the irrelevance of love and charity to the spiritual path --- although, like I said, this isn't strictly necessary, going by which way the burden of proof lies.

Clearly the answer is one of three things:
(a) RSSB says love and charity are necessary for the spiritual life; or
(b) RSSB does not say love and charity are necessary for the spiritual path/life; or
(c) RSSB is all over the place, saying both things, and thereby giving out an apparently confused message. (This confusion may speak to actual confusion and ignorance, or to contextual reading depending on specifics --- and which of the two it is, if #c is what applies, is an entirely separate discussion.)

(3) The same question as #2, but a bit broader, and as it applies not just to RSSB but to all spiritual and/or mysticism. This question, that um has raised, is more focused than #1, but broader than #2; and it admits of three possibilities, as with #2, and admits of resolution in the exact same way as #2.

-------

Like I said, I don't profess to be able to weigh in on this myself. Maybe a bit of #1, maybe a bit on #3, but certainly not at all on #2. Anyway, all I'm doing, via this comment, is holding up a placeholder as it were, to your very interesting discussion, um and Spence. Over and out from me, but should you care to carry on this discussion in structured form, I'll be very interested to see which way it goes.

[um]

@ AR

It is not a matter of a contest, nor for me to defend or justify a teaching that is not mine and I am not given the authority to teach it.

And for Yoy Ar .... things have a purpose.
That purpose can be written down in one sentence.

A car is an invention to transport from A to B.
An axe is to clove wood.
A hammer is to nail.
Etc

In this simple way you can write down any activity of human beings.
Religious practices and spiritual practices form no exemption to that rule.

Yoga is an practice as formulated by Patanjali to stop the movements of the mind.
Yogas Chitta vritti nirodhah in order for the mind to become a mirror in which other things can become "visible". There are different practices developed to arrive at this goal.

Shabd Yoga is the practice by which the carrier for the consciousness, having left the senses and the mind as a carrier, is something that has been pointed out as Shabd, something that resembles certain sounds that are known. Listening to it has the affect Panatali speaks of .. also Laya Yoga.

In that technique nothing is said about charity, like now word is spoken about charity in driving cars, playing this or that sport etc.

The goal of these saint teachings is to connect the soul with its origin., nothing more nothing less. All other things are discussed in terms of bein helpfull or distrurbing the practice,.

It is that simple.

[um]

@ Ar

Not all need to drive a car

The Mnt. Everest can be climbed.
Those who did speak of life changing experiences
Some are inspired by these stories and want to have them for themselves.
Some just hear these stories for what they are.

What ever one does with that knowledge of there being a mountain that can be climbed and the stories that relate of experiences of those that climbed it succefully, is immaterial as far as the climbing itself is concerned ... you have to climb it by the rules, there are no exceptions for nibody

Football has to be played by the rules. Democraty too and also Zen or any other practice to achieve a set goal.

For some atheism is the goal an practice, or rational thinking ... they too have to accept the rules of that "game".

Nobody needs to drink coffe ... I do ... it is my choice.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Appreciative
Yes to both.
Seva is a part of the path. And that seva, as Gurinder pointed out recently, can be any service in your community.

Um, it is not a matter of going out of your way. That is a straw man.

To be helpful is natural. All Saints, especially in the RSSB tradition, have said so. And to show love and kindness for each other as well. Very natural. No need to go out of your way.

Nanak wrote, "The God in you is the God in me."

Um, you are describing a very harsh sub culture to be found in most religions. It is a filtration of what Maharaji taught, not the whole truth. And as a half truth, is quite misleading.

Yes, find the Shabd and rise through that. Find Master within. Devote yourself to the Spirit. There is liberation.

But that Shabd is love, and connects us all. So that will bring you to Seva as the best way to go through this short life. That Shabd will open your heart to all around you. If not, then you have not found Shabd nor your Master.

That you separate love from Shabd, and brotherhood with all people is absolutely foreign to the teachings of the Masters.

You missed that part.

[Appreciative Reader]

I'm inclined to agree, um, for what that is worth, basis my reading of Julian Johnson. I remember the prison thing.

On the other hand, there are many other RSSB books and speeches, and for all I know Spence may be able to present excerpts to support his case. Let's see.

Also, I agree, contests per se are juvenile, and pointless. But knowing if your POV is correct, or whether unbeknownst to yourself you might be mistaken, is probably an important question, right? Provided of course the underlying question is one you care about.

---

Taking this beyond RSSB, I do know that the RCC does lay stress on "works", and also that RCC doctrine is authoritative in itself, unlike other denominations that draw authority from scripture.

Anyway, let me not make this about myself and my ideas. Over to you, and to Spence -- if you, and he, wish. I'm out of here. Cheers.

[um]

@ Spence

No spiritual teacher ever said that by charitas the goals of a mystic practice could be achieved.

Once achieved that goal those who have have been acting benevolent to those that crossed their path, but spence .... the never went out into the world for charitas.

Charitas, is a Christian obsession, not to be found in other religion and mystical traditions.

And for a man that presents himself here as having achieved that goal of Nanak, you are using rather strong words Spence.

You and some others here in nothing resemble the man that initiated you, neither in speach, written word or body language .... he kept his wealth, physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual hidden and he admonished his followers to do the same.

[um]

@ Spence

Dayal Bagh, is operating in the world, more or less as how the antroposophy is and ofshut of theosophy

https://www.dayalbagh.org.in/

The other branches have never done anything in that direction.
Yes they have built some hospital, organized an eyecamp, rebuild some schools, gave shelter during the the partition to whomever needed protection etc.

And yes Spence the followers were suggested to participate in these projects as Seva,,
but Spence .......
from the beginning on wards the followers were never ... NEVER . ... asked or suggested to organize or participate in any charitative activity

Nor is a word in that direction to be found in the initiation ceremony.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"No spiritual teacher ever said that by charitas the goals of a mystic practice could be achieved."

Um, it's not about what you or I achieve in spiritual practice.

It's about our humanity. When that is lost, so is our spirituality.

"Our shortcomings and lack of love keep us out."
Sawan Singh,

Acts of kindness are not the cause of salvation, Um. But they are the signs of it.

[um]

@ Spence

It is simple ....

Youtube these days are is full with video's from people that are considered to have reached that ultimate goal.

NONE Spence , ..... speak as you do!!

NONE advocate doing good, being good, being charitative ... NONE

My dear friend that passed away recently was also one, considered to have reached that ultimate goal, he too never said a word in that direction. He "hated" when people publicly talked about intentions to be good or showed their love for the lord.

[Ruby]

Hello Um,
I'm a little confused. Maybe you could clear things up for me. If, as you say RSSB initiates were never asked or suggested to organize or participate in any charitable activity, nor is there a word to be found in that direction in their initiation ceremony, why do you think RSSB names their hospitals the way they do?
They are named as follows:
Maharaj Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital
Maharaj Charan Singh Charitable Hospital
Bhota Charitable Hospital
It would seem to me that charity and love towards your fellow man would be a core principle or tenet of RSSB. After all only a human being can help another human being with deliberate and thoughtful intent. An animal could not help a human being in that way.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"Youtube these days are is full with video's from people that are considered to have reached that ultimate goal.

" NONE Spence , ..... speak as you do!!

" NONE advocate doing good, being good, being charitative ... NONE

" My dear friend that passed away recently was also one, considered to have reached that ultimate goal, he too never said a word in that direction. He "hated" when people publicly talked about intentions to be good or showed their love for the lord."

Um, why are you concerned with comparisons to other people? Comparisons are odious.

All that matters is what is in your own heart. Even what you think Maharaji said it didn't say only matters in context to what you believe, what your heart tells you.

Anything that connects you to your own sentiment is of huge value.

And anything that doesn't is of no value to you.

You don't need to hide behind anyone's you tube video or words in a book. You can stand on your own faith.

It is the only faith that you can hold.

[um]

Oh Ruby ... why are you people making life so difficult?!

Do you not read what is put before you?

I mentioned in length all the activities that are done ordered by the different teachers in Beas for the welfare of some.

They people like you, were asked to do seva as by order of their guru; to participate in those activities they wanted to be done, for THEIR own reasons. I will not go into those details of the reasons why they chose to have an hospital build or any of the other activities on a given moment in history

Having said this ... the point is that THEY never advised anybody to do seva elswhere.

They didn't say you should not ... they just did not speak of it to do good in the world.
And when asked for permission to organize this or that charitative activity it was always refused. People in Europe have asked to build hospitals etc etc.

Charan refused even the building of school for the children in Dera. Now there are these things. They have their motives but they might be completely different from what you might think them to be.

[um]

@ Spence

If Huzur use the words of previous saints it was not weakness on his part, unable to stand on his own feet.

Neither do I.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"If Huzur use the words of previous saints it was not weakness on his part, unable to stand on his own feet.

" Neither do I.

Um, I repeat, if those words resonate with your sentiment, they have value to you.

And if anyone's words do not, they don't.

It's not a wrong or right issue, except that the value of a loving nature and kindness to all has been extolled extensively by Maharaji. It is actually part of the fourth vow, living to the highest moral standards, and foundational to meditation practice. And discussed in the initiation ceremony right along with meditation practice.

To suggest good works and the decision to engage in them belongs only to the most spirituality advanced is false. It is, as Ruby wrote, a privilege every human being enjoys.

Indeed, even animals occasionally display compassion for others.

We should do so as well.

Gurinder was asked how to be a good Satsangi. And he said that first we should learn to be good human beings.

[Spence Tepper]

And Um, no Saint waits to see what charitable works others have done and uses that to guide them.

When an earthquake struck India Gurinder said that Satsangis should go where no one else could or would, to help others.

Do you really wait to be told to be good?

[um]

@ Ruby and Spence

@ Ruby

And ... although I better not mention it here, yet i will do it to calm you people down.

With my dear friend, and some others we have been involved in seva for decades outside the lime light. We have always been grateful for having been able to do the work we were asked to do. We enjoyed it very much. That said .. remarks like ... "doing it for the master or other of these things" just were never spoken ....they even did not arise in our minds. We loved the work we did, we were also good at it and ... yes others benefited from it without knowing us.

Not to speak about the experience of participating in an Eye camp. I loved that work too and did it to my utmost capacity but the idea of doing good never arose in my mind. and yes the work I did was useful to for others.

And spence

What is a good human being? what did he have in mind.?

Do you realy think he had in mind what you have in mind?

They stressed to losen the bounds their initiates have with the world and to not created stronger and new ones .. not even those of being good,... bonds of gold bind as strong as others.

Whatever they had to say was for the spiritual welfare of their disciples only, to loosen their bonds with this world ... it is part of their commitment to the owner of the sheep, to bring them home and to loose none. They are not committed to the sheep and their world.

Your teachings are different

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
No my teachings are no different. They aren't teachings. I'm sharing my opinion only.

Of course everyone will view the path from their own place. If you are following the will of your master that is fantastic. But how can that ever include judging other Satsangis?

How do we know we are in His will?

That's an issue of meditation.

And as long as we are here, it's never completely clean. We make mistakes and misjudgements every day.

If you are concerned with being a good servant, who told you to render judgment upon a fellow Satsangi?

Is that also His will?

My comments express my view, Um. You attempted to compare what I said with your understanding of the path, to claim my words were different. But that was not the basis of my comments.

I'm not trying to define RSSB. You brought that up.

But certainly I don't shy away from quoting the Saints, as I have above.

Each will interpret it within their own context.

As for liberation, that happens when we withdraw, into the current of Spirit, Nam, Shabd, the Master's true form, from the impressions of our own minds.

Here, living in these minds, each of us has their own view.

But I do like my view. I do think we should live in an atmosphere of love towards everyone, helpfulness, acceptance, forgiveness and always hope and faith in progress, a willingness to put forth the effort. That lightens our burden and makes meditation go very smoothly.

And no darker view, however much one claims it to be official, can hold a candle to what I believe.

Yours

Spence

[um]

@ Spence

>> And no darker view, however much one claims it to be official, can hold a candle to what I believe.<<

You are not the first nor the last one, that based their believes upon their inner experiences and upon their relation with their inner master

They started out their own path and some even begun initiating people. They felt no need to consult the one that initiated them as he had told them that the inner master was the real one.

So be it Spence.

[Spence Tepper]

Um
Please do not compare me with those doing initiation of any kind. I'm a student, Um.

That really is a grossly unfair comparison.

But still, if you have to judge even those people, let me suggest that you don't.

If Master said that you lose sharing inner experiences, let me suggest that you lose also attending to others with any judgment at all.

Compassion towards others lightens the world. And protects

But judgment, not so much, imho.

[Spence Tepper]

Only a superior being can render judgment of anyone else.

Therefore, knowing our flawed state, we should avoid doing that.

We can't even judge ourselves with any accuracy, and that is the only use for our discrimination.

[um]

@ Spence

You may label what I write as judging, that is up to you what labels you want to attach to what I write.

Let me end this ongoing palaver with something that pops up in my mind right now, reading your words.

There was a young american on the brink of returning to the states, almost jumping on his feed, letting the whole world know, how happy he was, blessed and so on. In the eyes of Europeans, romantic Americans can be exaggerating about what is happening to them. Anyway, he asked Huzur for something of a blessing or farewell, I can't remeber. What I do remember is that when the young man had finished Huzur, in a voice not often heard coming from him ...Brother, I will be most happy if you return next year and are still married. You should have seen and heard the reactions and certainly that of the young man, how did the master dear to doubt what he was going to do. The story goes that he divorced before the end of the year.

Take it as it comes, I just put here what, pops up my contribution is the typing ... hahaha

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
It is best to avoid depicting anyone with a flawed example.

As for the one who divorced, don't you think he made progress? Isn't that his Masters ' affair?

If you rupiah to use these examples of you tube Gurus and flawed Satsangis let me suggest their best use is in looking at oneself, not as an indictment of anyone else.

[um]

@ Spence

What pops up in my mind I just typed it out ... that is my service.

You can do with it whatever suits you ... it just doesn't matter .... the painter has no dealing with the visitor that comes to see his painting. Both are on their own. The painter needs no advice from the onlooker on how to paint nor does he give advice as how his painting is to be seen.

[Dungeness]

@ Spence : [ "If you rupiah to use these examples of you tube Gurus and flawed Satsangis let me suggest their best use is in looking at oneself, not as an indictment of anyone else." ]

Hi Spence, are you using "rupiah" in some special sense or is it a typo perhaps?
( I ask because there's a Hindi word that Ishwar Puri spoke of relating to trickery
that sounds similiar)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
Rupiah... Pure auto text error, unless you live in Indonesia.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"What pops up in my mind I just typed it out ... that is my service.

" You can do with it whatever suits you ... it just doesn't matter .... the painter has no dealing with the visitor that comes to see his painting. Both are on their own. The painter needs no advice from the onlooker on how to paint nor does he give advice as how his painting is to be seen."

That's how it is for all of us Um, hopelessly proud of our own limited, static thinking.

But why? There is a great journey towards truth and love. Forget about this limited place. Paintings here are lifeless. Our opinions are just clones of other people's opinions and are thousands of years old. No, hundreds of thousands of years old. We are just the latest crop of clones, Um. We believe what pops into our head and because it's there we have no perspective to see it rightly as a tiny speck of dust. Instead we enshrine it with "me" and "mine." It's old and lifeless.

Instead, let's go someplace. Let's step past these shells, past these prisons.

Do you know, Um, who made these prisons? God.

So if God made them, we are just going to have to accept that while we're here, prison is the rule.

1. Accept your fate.
2. Accept your faith.....

Let's step outside for a while, then we can come back and rethink it, if we really want to waste time on that.

No opinion matters. Movement within matters. And Kindness matters.

If we can't agree on that, then let's part as friends.

[Rodney]

https://rssb.org/2012-08-06.html

[Rodney]

@spence and @um

https://rssb.org/2012-08-06.html

[um]

@ Spence

>> That's how it is for all of us Um, hopelessly proud of our own limited, static thinking.<<

Maybe you are speaking about and for yourself but I come from a background that never uses the word, not in speaking not in writing and for a simple reason there exists nothing to be proud of.

The paining is finished when the painter puts the brush down. Then is job is done.

[um]

@ Rodney

As I wrote, we were asked to do particular work and that is what we did.
We did it for decades with great pleasure,.

We were enriched by it in many, many ways for which we were and are very thankfull.
We never said or even thought about doing it for the master.
Whether it was seen by anybody as seva or not has never been our concern.
Seva was a word others used, we never did

If it turns out sometime, that the work we did, is seen as "seva", we were "payed" double wages.

After finishing, the most joyful seva we ever did, my good friend and I shaked hands with him and soon there after, it proved to be and "fare well handshake" as we both lost all contact with him and the organisation.

[Rodney]

After finishing, the most joyful seva we ever did, my good friend and I shaked hands with him and soon there after, it proved to be and "fare well handshake" as we both lost all contact with him and the organisation.

Posted by: um | September 26, 2021 at 02:06 AM

Am sure you would have pondered over why that handshake turned out to be the farewell handshake. Care to share the outcome

And are you sure the connect has indeed snapped? I recollect reading someplace that the RSSB master never leaves the disciple even if the disciple goes off the path.

[Spence Tepper]

Nowhere in any Sant Mat literature is the concept of Seva restricted only to service defined by the RSSB organization.

https://rssb.org/index.html

"Inherent to the Society’s philosophy is the importance of seva, meaning selfless service, or voluntarism."

"Mahatma Gandhi embodied the importance of service in his statement: “The best way to find your self is to lose yourself in the service of others.” It is believed that through service, one loses one’s sense of self-importance and becomes humble. That is the foundation of a spiritual life."

Gandhi was not a Satsangi.

The greatest volunteerism is where you see a need no one is meeting and simply step in and meet it, without comment or fanfare.

If you can't do that, if you are not compelled by compassion to do this, then you can follow someone else's compassion in all humility and submission, so that, as your ego is put aside, you see and serve others as serving the Lord, as serving a part of yourself.

When you understand who the Master is your loved for the Master will compel you to follow his nstructions.

And when you see your Master everywhere, then feeding the starving beggar is service to your Master. You won't ignore the plight of others then, claiming, "Well, my Master didn't tell me to help them yet."

[um]

@ Rodney

Yes, we have discussed that many a time but we could, understandably come up with what the effect was for us. My dear friend, one day said: "whatever you people seek outside, is within me everyday and the whole day there is nothing left for me in this organisation".

I did my best to find out what that would mean and how it was related to, what was once so dear to the both of us, but I failed to make him speak.

As for myself, imaging yourself sitting in a cinema lost in the drama on the screen and all of a sudden you wake up ... just imagine what that would be.

You ask whether I am sure that the connection snapped. Well Rodney, I can only speak for myself and confess that I was never aware of any connection. What I know is that I enjoyed the movie.

He once wrote that his invisible hand was always guiding me ... well, that might be the case but for me that guidance, if it is there, is indeed invisible.

Yes, I know what he time and again would say about the relation between teacher and disciple. By heart and verbatim I could write here at least 5 statements that makes it clear but having woken up in the theater these kind of statements have lost their impression.

I do remember the relation as something left behind, of a time well spend in which much was understood, like say a school. Good stuff to learn, nice friends, good teachers etc. and lots of fun. All things one carries around with thankfulness

If there is more to it than what I write here, the future will tell.

[um]

>>Inherent to the Society’s philosophy is the importance of seva, meaning selfless service, or voluntarism. >Voluntary service is the backbone of all activities connected with RSSB. All administrative functions, construction of Indian and international centres, feeding of the hundreds of thousands of visitors who visit the headquarters in India, writing and translating books and magazines explaining the teachings, are done by members on a voluntary basis.>"Mahatma Gandhi embodied the importance of service in his statement: “The best way to find your self is to lose yourself in the service of others.” It is believed that through service, one loses one’s sense of self-importance and becomes humble. That is the foundation of a spiritual life." <<

There is no word, no indication, no hint to do it anywhere else ... what people do elswhere, is up to them and that is never been discussed.

The whole article just says that the whole dera is build by its followers and for its followers and belongs to them, meaning that labor etc is all a free gift and nothing is forced upon them for the welfare of a happy few.

[Spence Tepper]

Seva of the Master is a perfect place to help the Master. No karma. If he is helping others than I can do so as well, safely, without incurring any karma. I'm not helping anyone else but my Master. And there is no who simply following instructions. I put my mind on Simran and Bhajan and I don't need to worry about it. I can just be in Shabd during all this.

It's practice for how we should live our lives, in the best controlled environment.

At some point you realize every breath you take is controlled. And it becomes easier to just do or say the right thing without risk or reservation. There is no risk when the outcome is inevitable, when even "you" aren't moving your hands and feet. But that is our condition normally. We just aren't aware of it, and thereby can't live on the will of the Master because we aren't actually living in the will of our own persona. We are compelled, and we make excuses for what we are compelled to do.

Hence meditation and the connection to the Source within us, to grow the awareness, and deepen the connection.

That can happen at any moment in any place and time.

You carry all love and truth within you wherever you go.

Whatever Master was or is, the Spirit is within, must be. All that matters is already there, and you have the means to awaken it, in stages.

[Spence Tepper]

Should we ignore the starving, the beaten, the abused?

Um, check out the awareness section of the RSSB Website. In video after video examples are given of abuse and the call to intervene when we see abuse.

Gurinder used to show videos about pollution encouraging people to act to lessen pollution in their communities.
Did that call to action begin with the Master?

The abuse was already there. The pollution was already there.

But you needed the physical Master to tell you to do something first?

Master within you was telling us all along.

We weren't listening.

And when we start listening, you won't need a written invitation by the Master to be a decent human being.

[Lalit]

Seva of the Master is a perfect place to help the Master. No karma. If he is helping others than I can do so as well, safely, without incurring any karma. I'm not helping anyone else but my Master. And there is no who simply following instructions. I put my mind on Simran and Bhajan and I don't need to worry about it. I can just be in Shabd during all this.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | September 26, 2021 at 08:57 AM

The Master doesn't need our Seva. One does seva for himself.

No Karma!!!!!! Whoever said that? Be clear..... Every grass blade cut in the beautification of the Dera/Centres creates karma. And this is straight from the current master.

[Lalit]

@spence

What's the core of the Santmat philosophy? Helping others or an extremely selfish objective of merging with the One?

If it's the later, only Bhajan and Simran matters and nothing else. Everything else is a means to an end.

Being good, kind, doing seva just help in our progress. But being good, kind, doing seva (without Bhajan and Simran) all you earn for yourself are chains made of gold.

[um]

@ Lalit

You make my day :-)
No longer alone shouting in the dessert
Time to drink a decent cup of coffee
Thank you

Selfish objective ... would not have been my choice of words however.

[Spence Tepper]

Lalit
Yes, every action here incurs Karma. When you act under the Master's instructions, if you can, He incurs the Karma. Not you. Or is not to your benefit to take on more Karma, positive or negative. We are trying to get free of that system. Under His Will, not ours, that happens.

This is how we become kama-less, acting under His authority. The idea of meditation is to bring you closer to that.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Lalit
You wrote
"What's the core of the Santmat philosophy? Helping others or an extremely selfish objective of merging with the One?

" If it's the later, only Bhajan and Simran matters and nothing else. Everything else is a means to an end.

"Being good, kind, doing seva just help in our progress. But being good, kind, doing seva (without Bhajan and Simran) all you earn for yourself are chains made of gold."

If you are no longer acting on your will, you incur no karma helping others at all.

So yes, first priority, inner progress.

But where did that take you? To a place where all souls are One. To brotherhood.

Then, in His will you act for the good of others. It's not a decision you make. It just happens naturally. It's a growing enlightened compassion, hearing that voice within you. You do it. You are part of something much larger. His Seva. His Seva involves much more than the organization of RSSB.

The Master, the True Lord of Lords, runs a much larger organisation than RSSB.

So then not helping is just imposing your fear onto His creation. But you can only let that go when you are attached to His will within. And then what you see as conflicting ideas is really one and the same thing. The One includes everyone, and all are your brothers and sisters. Would a brother let their sister suffer? No.

You are still acting under His instructions. He never said to ignore the poor and the weak, and those who need. But as He said, we should get our own selves out of the ditch first, then we can help others. That is a larger perspective.

Once you are out of the ditch there is no end of Seva here.

[Spence Tepper]

And at some point doing that Seva in His Love, merged with Shabd IS meditation.

Please don't suggest that we not help others.

Do Satsangis need a written invitation signed by Master to treat those around them with compassion and kindness?

They will find it was sent to them, within, ages ago. And all along they have been marking that letter with "No such person at this address" and sending it back.

You got your letter and He dutifully sends another to you, like Harry Potter's invitations to Hogwarts, endlessly through many different channels.

You just have to open your heart to read it.

That is in meditation. What are you waiting for?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Lalit
You wrote
"The Master doesn't need our Seva. One does seva for himself."

Actually Lalit, He does the Seva for Himself.

If you are doing anything at all, that isn't Seva.

Seva is selfless.

[um]

@ Spence

Those that have realised the lord, are kind hearted, if they are but not everybody that is kind hearted has realized the lord nor does being kind hearted is the road to relaize the lord.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"Those that have realised the lord, are kind hearted, if they are but not everybody that is kind hearted has realized the lord nor does being kind hearted is the road to relaize the lord."

Yes, to a degree. Doing good to others for some spiritual reward is just another form of Karma, acting in my will, not the Master's.

But doing good because your heart breaks to see suffering, that is a quality of spirituality. At some point you can feel no other. Then, broken hearted, you turn to Master to find a way to live without letting that compassion destroy you. So that you can become truly helpful and not another burden.

Master loves that compassion. But it has to become disciplined in order to do any good at all, and not interfere with our spiritual duties. To be more than strong, more than tough, Gurinder tough, is the lesson for those whose hearts break seeing others suffer.

[Lalit]

"Seva is service to the Master through service to our fellow human beings. Nobody is being more helped than the one who does the service. The purpose of seva is to help us expand in our love. Seva is an act of love meant simply to help us grow in love. That is seva. The practice of meditation will gradually help us to look upon everything we do as the Master’s work."
Living Meditation

So @spence, He doesn't do seva for himself.

[Spence Tepper]

Read it again, Lalit
"Seva is service to the Master."
That's serving Him, not you.
It may help you, but not of that is your motive.

"When you act, take yourself out of it, act is if He is the doer."
Swami Ji

[Spence Tepper]

Here again Lalit, please re-read what you posted.

"The purpose of seva is to help us expand in our love. Seva is an act of love meant simply to help us grow in love. That is seva. The practice of meditation will gradually help us to look upon everything we do as the Master’s work."

Word for word, Lalit, the point is to expand our love, so that everything we do, all the activity of our life, all the people we interact with, all the people we serve, all the duties we are responsible for are His and Him.

That goes way, way beyond the activities of the RSSB organization.

Please read what you posted once more with an open mind.

[Lalit]

Lalit
Yes, every action here incurs Karma. When you act under the Master's instructions, if you can, He incurs the Karma. Not you. Or is not to your benefit to take on more Karma, positive or negative. We are trying to get free of that system. Under His Will, not ours, that happens.

This is how we become kama-less, acting under His authority. The idea of meditation is to bring you closer to that.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | September 26, 2021 at 09:55 AM

Honestly you need a refresher course on RSSB philosophy..

GSD repeatedly states nobody can take on anyone's karmas including the Guru. And you have to clear your account and we become karma-less in a minuscule manner through our meditation and in a large measure through his grace.

[Spence Tepper]

Lalit, as you see, Seva is a means to train us how to be in that state if love for God in all activities. It is a form of training, like meditation, for the test of our lives. So that we carry on all activity this way, and all activity becomes a devotion, becomes His Action, His Seva.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Lalit
You wrote
"GSD repeatedly states nobody can take on anyone's karmas including the Guru."

Who do you think is doing your meditation?

Do you think you are doing it?

Are you getting rid of your own karma?

You misunderstood him. He gave you meditation, and it's your job to use it. No one else's. You received the sword, now you must use it.

And what are you using it to slay? Your storehouse of karma, all the impressions that make you think, "this is mine. I did it."

If you hope to merge with your Master you will have to leave me and mine at the doorway.

You'll never get through that doorway clinging to me and mine.

Then you will see He is doing it all.

Until then you have a duty on your shoulders and yours alone.

But Gurinder taught you that getting through life is a partnership. His help is there all the time. And if He is there helping you, then He gets the credit for your progress, not you.

Leave "you" aside.

[um]

@ Spence

This forum is not the place to discuss the ins and outs of the teachings / seva.

I just finished a paragraph in the abridged version of Philosophy of the masters, Chapter 8, page 306 titled Service.

please do read it it if only the first sentence.

[Lalit]

@spence

At the risk of repeating myself

Seva is simply a means to an end. An opportunity provided by the master to better ourselves - to develop humility, diminish our self-importance, improve our character - All crucial to our spiritual progress. And so we need seva. Seva doesn't need us.

And anyways if everything we do creates karma which has to be accounted for..... Why not be good and do good and reap the rewards.- the golden chain

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um and Lalit
My initial posts were to share my view and not comment upon RSSB, as none of us are representatives of that organization. Um, you brought us into that discussion and I appreciate your willingness to withdraw from comments about RSSB. I'm with you there.

We have different views of what spiritual progress looks like, and the importance in our lives of helping others outside of the formal RSSB organization.. Helping others in our community. For me there is no difference at all. God is everywhere.

For you both, apparently, nothing exists outside of the formal RSSB organization. And that's actually right so long as that is where you find God.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

For you both, you believe the will of the Master re Seva is limited to doing RSSB Seva. That is a great place to start. Though the entire world has opportunities to serve Him in my eyes.

Lalit, it appears you believe the Master cannot help you deal with your Karma. If that pushes you to take full responsibility for meditation, that's probably good, except perhaps as I found you will one day discover that is impossible.

I cannot not take a single breath without Him and His Grace.

As one of my favorite bumper stickers says...

"I don't believe in miracles. I rely upon them."

There are different levels of understanding, and they each serve a purpose at different stages of our own development. They are not in conflict actually.

[Lalit]

The only thing mine is my karmas and my meditation.

That is why I have to settle the account.

I here being the soul.

It's my master's grace that he helps burn down the storehouse of karmas despite little /inadequate effort (meditation).

Discarding me, mine etc is elementary and honestly not relevant to the discussion we having.

[Lalit]

@spence

Ofcourse if I have to do seva I will do it for RSSB

Santmat is the most selfish path and anything to achieve the objective of merging with the one.

The world can have the Mother Teresa's - who probably must now at best be living a life in one of those numerous heaven we are told about - for all the noble and charitable work she did.

[Spence Tepper]

Lalit
Even your Kamas aren't yours.
They are the clothes you wear.
But taking them off and giving them back is your lot, as it is for each of us.

If you aren't there who is doing it? If you have found your Master within, He does it all.

Out here, we carry responsibility, we must act, we must use our best judgement.

Within, there are zero questions. There, within, there is no one to raise questions as we have left ourselves behind.. And one with the One who had all the answers, there is nothing left to say.

So, it's the same message out here. Go there.

[Lalit]

Lalit, it appears you believe the Master cannot help you deal with your Karma. If that pushes you to take full responsibility for meditation, that's probably good, except perhaps as I found you will one day discover that is impossible.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | September 26, 2021 at 11:25 AM

And you have to clear your account and we become karma-less in a minuscule manner through our meditation and in a large measure through his grace.

Posted by: Lalit | September 26, 2021 at 10:54 AM

Thats my belief wrt to masters role in my karmic load

[Lalit]

Lalit
Even your Kamas aren't yours.
They are the clothes you wear.
But taking them off and giving them back is your lot, as it is for each of us.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | September 26, 2021 at 11:39 AM

Thats your misplaced belief.

I remain guided by what GSD has to say about karmas and which is contrary to what you say.