Ooh, nice! I like it!
That was the voice that speaks inside my head after I'd written the final two sentences in a Facebook message.
Mostly people we disagree with are well-meaning. They just find meaning in their lives in a different fashion than we do.
The woman I was communicating with responded with a pleasing "Well said!" My sentiment exactly.
I said what I did in regard to a religious group, Salem Awakening, that's been having outdoor services in a public park on the riverfront. Some people distrust Salem Awakening because they have organized protests against Planned Parenthood in the guise of the Church at Planned Parenthood.
(That isn't an actual church. It's more like a franchise, since churches in various cities use that name when they protest outside a Planned Parenthood clinic.)
Even though members of the Proud Boys militia group, which took part in the January 6 insurrection at the nation's capitol, provide security for Salem Awakening when they're doing their Planned Parenthood protest thing, I'd told the woman that I didn't think Salem Awakening was up to anything nefarious.
Like I said, almost certainly the religious people doing the protesting are well-meaning. They just find meaning in a different fashion than a progressive atheist like me, who supports a woman's right to choose an abortion, does.
More and more I'm bothered by the tendency of many to demonize people who have different values than they do -- political, religious, whatever. As noted in a recent post about extreme political correctness, "I get cited by Salem's Woke Police," a sense of overzealous righteousness can lead to viewing those with different views as not just mistaken, but contemptible.
I don't believe in God. But I used to, an Eastern religion variety. I'm a progressive. But I was raised by a highly conservative mother, and shared her Republicanism until I went to college.
So I can completely understand why so many people find meaning in religion and right-wing politics. I no longer share those views. However, in no way do I perceive religious believers and conservatives as being bad people. They're just people who look upon certain aspects of the world in a different way than I do.
This used to be a non-controversial perspective.
Each to his or her own. We can agree to disagree. I disagree with what you're saying, but I defend your right to say it. Catch phrases like those reflected a culture where reasonable people could discuss controversial subjects in a courteous fashion.
Things have gone downhill in this regard. Often way downhill. On the far reaches of both the political left and right, a substantial number of zealots look upon anyone who doesn't subscribe to their extreme views as unworthy of respect. This carries over into other areas, such as religion.
Instead of being critical of someone else's perspective, there's an effort to cancel their right to express that perspective.
Instead of viewing them as well-meaning people with a different viewpoint, they're seen as dangerous promoters of a meaningless outlook on life.
Jonathan Rauch talks about this in his excellent book, "The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth." Here's an excerpt from his chapter Cancelling: Despotism of the Few.
Criticism seeks to engage in conversations and identify error; canceling seeks to stigmatize conversations and punish the errant. Criticism cares whether statements are true; cancelling cares about their social effects. Criticism exploits viewpoint diversity; cancelling imposes viewpoint conformity.
Criticism is a substitute for social punishment (we kill our hypotheses rather each other); cancelling is a form of social punishment (we kill your hypothesis by killing you socially). Criticism reflects the values of the Constitution of Knowledge, seeking to inquire and learn. Cancelling reflects the values of propaganda, seeking to manipulate the information environment.
Now, most of us don't encounter cancel culture because we aren't part of a university, social media niche, or other place where views that dissent from What is Deemed Acceptable are met with derision from those who have placed a claim on the truth as only they can know it.
As noted above, my eyes have been opened to this distressing cultural phenomenon after being vilified on Facebook as an old white man whose views are worth precisely nothing because I committed the heinous sin of deviating from wokeness orthodoxy.
(In that post I didn't include all the insults directed at me, only a sampling.)
I'm grateful for the experience, which admittedly was much less intense than the cancelling meted out to professors, journalists, and others who got on the wrong side of extreme left-wing dogmatism. The far right has its own brand of closed-minded dogmatism, of course.
Stuck in the middle are the vast majority of Americans, who probably constitute at least two-thirds of the United States population, but a decided minority of the outrage.
What I hope for is an outpouring in support of reasonableness that will counter the irrational screaming from the fringes. My contribution to this is a sentiment that I like a lot. Again:
Mostly people we disagree with are well-meaning. They just find meaning in their lives in a different fashion than we do.
This is the fruit of the decade long establishment bashing by those that starte the ant-authority movements in 1968.
What happened at your Capitol, does find its roots there and then
These people managed to occupy the media, owned it and flooded it with their ideas about everything for decades.
Before 1968 the middle class of everything formed a ditch, a wall so to say, between the extremes ... have a look at the GAUSS curve... and you will see it!! That wall functioned as an barrier between the extremes so that they could not meet in public an certainly not in the media to scream and fight at one another
After the occupation of the media by the ant-authority people who made it clear that heads of organisations, establishment etc etc are just good enough to be pissed on their heads. ...THEY, the anti authority people, these set the standard, ... and now ....now their example is followed by the masses, the uneducated etc etc... the are upset and wail like little children.
The more freedom one wants, the more mis-use of freedom will occur, the more control of freedom will be demanded for.......those who started that demand of 1968 had and have no idea what authority is and the role it plays in the development of a healthy society and culture.... they are children that never grew up.
The difference between a child and a grown-up is the understanding that to get a thing one wants, other things one wants to have to be sacrificed. Children are unable to understand that, they just want life to be their way, their way by nature is self oriented, ego-centric anti social .... they have to learn an understand that they are ALSO part of an society and culture that has its own demands.
Posted by: um | August 28, 2021 at 01:10 AM
There are many aspects of our culture that contain inherent racism. And they are nearly impossible to detect.
Physiologically, the brain creates and recreates the images we see. It patches together a visual picture from sensory input by drawing straight lines, recognizing shapes.
So, when, in a split second a police officer sees a suspect reaching for a gun, and then responds by shooting them, what they saw was a construction of their brain. The suspect was innocent, and reaching for their cell phone.
But because they were black, the officer's conditioning moves their brain to paint the object seen in a split second, as a gun.
They actually saw a gun.
Racism and all sorts of stereotyping happens passively, systemically, and affects our ability to be objective, not only about others, but ourselves.
We are biological creatures, and the thinking of this brain, even our perceptions,, are warped by our conditioning.
This should make us humble, not judgmental. Because human judgment is fatally and forever flawed.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | August 28, 2021 at 04:38 AM
The secret to human progress is learning from our critics, not canceling them.
Take a stand against injustice, not in defense of your opinion or the culture that it arises from.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | August 28, 2021 at 04:50 AM
Jesus was the original progressive.
Posted by: Tendzin | August 28, 2021 at 08:51 AM
Many believe that the progressive movement began with the French Revolution. Good arguments can be made that this revolution was, in its basic theme, an entirely justified response to the repressive and unjust ancien regime. However, what began with earnest good intentions progressed to something quite ugly.
How the French Revolution actually progressed from justified protest to extremism is instructive to the current era. First the bad guys were toppled, or rather their heads were, but then those revolutionaries who weren't progressive enough also had their heads lopped off. Such was the fate of Robespierre, who despite leading the revolution was declared its enemy and executed with out a trial.
The same basic thing has happened in revolutions East and West since then, particularly where Marxist-Leninist systems hold sway. The progressive movement tends to eat its own.
The United States has been one of the few exceptions to the world's madcap political systems. We have a system where social and political progress is allowed to foster within a system of actual democracy. (Note: actual democracy in a republic is quite a different thing from mob rule.)
Those who are fundamentally opposed to American democracy may believe they are well-meaning, but then again, most people in prison for violent crimes also believe that their actions were entirely justified. Intent and feelings can't be the metric of a workable social system. Anarchy doesn't qualify as legitimate dissent. Voices that accuse you of being a "passive racist" and a non-legitimate citizen because of the color of your skin or age are always good actors with good intentions. The people who style themselves as warriors for freedom may be more about taking away your freedom than anything else.
All ideas are not equal. Quite a lot of what passes today as informed social criticism and evidence of "systemic racism" is based on faulty reasoning and questionable arguments about who had access to swimming pools 50 years ago.
To put it bluntly, our society is in a civil war whether we like it or not. The side that wants to enact reforms that, always, always, always involve taking away your freedom is the side that doesn't really care about you. Their intent may be good, but again, everyone believes their intent is pure as the driven snow, just as everyone believes that they're great drivers.
Everyone believes they're great drivers, and yet tens of thousands of people die in car crashes every year. Obviously, not everyone is a great driver, which is why we have motor vehicle laws.
Posted by: Tendzin | August 28, 2021 at 09:50 AM
Wearing a mask, personal choice!
Vaccination, personal choice!
DRUNK DRIVING, PERSONAL CHOICE!
Posted by: umami | August 28, 2021 at 10:13 AM
A message usually packs more punch when it can be delivered in less than a paragraph. :)
Posted by: Sonia | August 28, 2021 at 12:59 PM
I get annoyed at GSD for not being able to see the truth as I define it, and vice versa. But we don’t need to go blowing things up. That’s not very persuasive.
Posted by: Sonia | August 28, 2021 at 01:06 PM
When he started out his office, one of the first things he said about what he was going to do was ... to bring confusion.
He kept his word.... and in doing so, shows himself as a good student of his uncle :-))
Posted by: um | August 28, 2021 at 01:55 PM
When people are murdered by they police, sometimes things get blown up in protest.
That's just the chickens coming home to roost.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | August 28, 2021 at 02:06 PM
When they loose their jobs, when the rains cease and the fields dry up so they can no longer farm, when the corporations find new slave labor to produce everything, and the unions are powerless, people start to scapegoat, become racist, and storm the capital.
It's really that simple.
But to see it requires one tiny step... The desire to understand.
And that step is the first one to actually helping.
Jesus said we should love our neighbors as ourselves.
And then he gave the example of a helpful foreigner, a stranger, not a citizen, as the definition of a good neighbor.
Progress begins when we stop hating, and start listening.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | August 28, 2021 at 02:13 PM
"When they loose their jobs, when the rains cease and the fields dry up so they can no longer farm, when the corporations find new slave labor to produce everything, and the unions are powerless, people start to scapegoat, become racist, and storm the capital. It's really that simple."
Actually, it's not that simple Spence. There is no evidence that the January 6th protestors were motivated by unemploymentment, crop failures, or racism. Their protest was about the integrity of the 2020 election.
But you are right about scapegoating being a problem.
Posted by: Tendzin | August 28, 2021 at 08:18 PM
That’s the Ego’s playbook.
Posted by: Sonia | August 28, 2021 at 08:51 PM
Agents of chaos that traverse the grey areas of moral and ethical playgrounds.
Posted by: Sonia | August 28, 2021 at 11:12 PM
Creating confusion, if that is the correct word in English, can be used for an higher good, to get people out of their mental shelter.
.... what ever the case, .....
Many things he says that "shocks" the audience, make me laugh, they are often funny., realizing how it will effect the cat clean listeners
What he says should certainly not taken by the letter but figured out what is said or intended, in between the lines.
And ... other wise ... I have no opinion about who and what he is or what he does in life. Living my own life is more than enough.
Posted by: um | August 29, 2021 at 01:49 AM
"Using the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project definitions, the storming of the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021 was an attempted coup d’état: an organized, illegal attempt to intervene in the presidential transition by displacing the power of the Congress to certify the election. Specifically, at the time of this writing, we classify it as an attempted dissident coup."
Dissident is a funny term though, because it usually applies in opposition to authoritarianism. Here the authoritarianism was imaginary, the insurrectionists having drunk Trump's Kool-Aid of a "deep state" as their oppressor and himself as Redeemer. He and others in power were wiley enough not to advocate explicitly for violence, but intimations in the vocabulary of QAnon were sufficient. Through the narrative of a stolen election Trump and his allies propagandized the willing into action, but alas, the wick fizzled. No October Revolution, no Arab Spring, no stand against Gulenists on the Bosporus Bridge, no Second Coming of Christ.
Posted by: umami | August 29, 2021 at 08:20 AM
Humans have to re-created their original habitat, to stay alive, like animals have to seek their food within a given area.
For that they are given the mind as a problem-solving-tool.
The mind processes the useful information from the environment but as their are always have been things that were and are beyond the understanding and yet seemed to direct influence the well-being, the mankind had to come up with an solution. That solution was found in a "higher power" to which everything could be attributed that they could not handle an/or understand..
Part of that outsourcing of personal responsibility, was and is transferred to science. However not all and everything.
So for that remaining part, humans have created Q-anon, that has created for them the new powers that guides their fate. Powers as distant and vague as the religious gods.
It are all survival techniques.
A different chapter is to be reserved for those who have Inner experiences, either spontaneous or provoked artificial by meditation or mind altering substances.. They too have to deal with that information in a survival context but in an total other way.
Culture and everything that belongs to it are just survival tools.... all political systems are of that order, even those that are disgusted.
Those who stormed the Capitol and those who lent their ears to Q-anon have real existential problems at hand as also have those who are attracted to the Taliban and other extreme forms of Islam.
No god, if there is one, is interested in what they do, they just use god as an justification oi what they do for getting their hands on what they want for themselves in this life.
Seen from a natural perspective, culture and everything containing it has no meaning
To kill and be killed for democracy, flag etc is just cultural, and has no existence of itself in nature.
Posted by: um | August 29, 2021 at 08:52 AM
"No god, if there is one, is interested in what they do, they just use god as an justification oi what they do for getting their hands on what they want for themselves in this life."
What you wrote reminds me of Buddha's Second Noble Truth.
Set aside gurus and higher realms, and there's still a lot to be said for keeping lust, anger, greed, attachment and ego under control. They get people into big trouble!
Posted by: umami | August 29, 2021 at 09:27 AM
The question arises: "Why for heavens sake, would anybody want to control these reactions of human beings to their environment" .... They were not human inventions, they were "given" to them [given doesn't mean there is a giver] for his use. So what is the NATURAL, not the cultural!!!, use of these reactions that are cultural seen as vices.
Buddha and others, in a sense are like Q-anon preachers.... please do forgive me I do not mean to say they are the same, it is about a "natural function" and I do not know how to formulate that properly.
Posted by: um | August 29, 2021 at 09:49 AM
I understand. Personally, I don't see them as vices, except insofar as they make messes or cause harm. I'm not one to preach against sin or immorality. Between consenting adults, anything goes. It pertains to method, that's all. If your goal is to untangle from the world and senses, then you have to develop a perspective on where your mental tentacles reach and what the suction cups grasp. Those five categories (lust, anger, etc.) seem like a pretty good map.
Posted by: umami | August 29, 2021 at 11:09 AM
Mind is the evil octopus in my head!
Posted by: umami | August 29, 2021 at 11:14 AM
>> Mind is the evil octopus in my head!>If your goal is to untangle from the world and senses,<<
That is a notion that has come to you and me as well, by culture!
But natural that notion does not exist ... how can entanglement from the world, be an natural goal. Maybe it can ... but that is still to be found out by me.
I would not dear to say permanently, but it seems that anger etc has gone. These days I wonder if I am still capable in becoming so angry as in the past, when, to be honest, i loved the energy. It was like sailing a boat in full wind and often my awareness/ consciousness?? was lifted so that I could see it from above. After such an happening I had to go to bed ... hahaha exhausted..... hahaha ... funny to think back about those days.
Posted by: um | August 29, 2021 at 11:35 AM
Again something went wrong ...but maybe what remains to be seen is enough
Posted by: um | August 29, 2021 at 11:54 AM
Let me add this much.
Do live a natural life in a natural way
A simple life in a simple way.
He did NOT say live a CULTURAL life nor a natural life in a cultural way.
Nor did he suggest with "natural" a life of our ancestors thousands of years ago.
The question does arise:
What is a "natural life"
How is "To entangle from life" related to a natural or cultural life.?
Is it "natural" to do so?
An if so how does it fit in a natural life?
How does any form of meditation fit within such an life?
The comparison with the octopus was funny and made me laugh .. thank you for that
Posted by: um | August 29, 2021 at 12:34 PM
I just want to hear him say that he is not God in Human Form.
Posted by: Sonia | August 29, 2021 at 12:51 PM
His uncle did say so and there is no reason to think he said something else.
His uncle would say time and again, grasping his knees .... Look, THIS is not the master and pointing at the audience YOU are not the disciples.
He also said that in this universe no perfect thing could exist, for anything to exist here, it HAD to be Im-percet.
There is a a huge difference between the teachings as they are discussed by disciples, by those disciples form India and elsewhere and from those from elsewhere, from Europe or the USA. That difference is HUGE .... and ... the so called disciple love their own teachings more that what is actualy put before them ... stronly put ... they give a sxxt about what is put before them.
Do not hang me ... hahahaha
Posted by: um | August 29, 2021 at 01:01 PM
The 3 monotheisti religions are waiting for their founders to return.
Now imagine that to be tomorrow!
A man with a suitcase, walking into the Vatican, presenting him self as Christ.
Because that is what Christ did 2000 years ago.
What do you think would happen?
The Swiss guard would capture the man and he would end up in jail or in an asylum.
Something of the like was done 2000 years ago.
Never has a prophet, a man of god or a god man, been accepted for the simple reason that people seeing such an man just sees a human being like himself. He will be unable to see something else.... it is impossible.
All talk of living gods is related to "how people should look upon such a man" for their own good. That prophet does not stand in need to be seen in such an way. It is all for the benefit of one that wants to have a look inside .... for that reverence will create, energy, focus etc so needed to continue any practice.
Prolonged meditation of any school needs fire, fire from longing, devotion or whatever to overcome the cold waters of doubt, frustration, distraction and attractions to waste energy.
It is all a technique .. misunderstood by most.
You would not invest that much on your own behalves, nor mine or anybody else.
It is as with your so much venerated flag.
If you do not hold it in almost divine esteem, you would not have yourself killed ir would kill others. That esteem, is the energy that makes the soldiers serve in your Army.
If one cannot have that esteem for a teacher and his teachings, nobody would invest his energy in the practice.
Do not hang me and I am not an promoter of any school ... hahahaha.
These is just human common sense.
Posted by: um | August 29, 2021 at 01:24 PM
@ " Mind is the evil octopus in my head! "
In my opinion, Mind is more relentless than evil and
the only antidote is mindfulness... gently lifting off
one arm, then the next, and the next... till you're
Posted by: Dungeness | August 29, 2021 at 02:07 PM
Tame the octopus! Ride the octopus! Magical octopus!
Posted by: umami | August 29, 2021 at 03:03 PM
@ Um "There is a a huge difference between the teachings as they are discussed by disciples, by those disciples form India and elsewhere and from those from elsewhere, from Europe or the USA. That difference is HUGE ... and ... the so called disciple love their own teachings more that what is actualy put before them ... stronly put ... they give a sxxt about what is put before them."
IMHO the most sacred teaching for disciples of RSSB is the initiation. What is imparted to them during initiation is what is held most dear. My understanding is that initiation is the same across the globe. And that teaching holds disciples to the discipline. It's a promise.
Satsangs, Q&As, discussions are just food for everyone's octopus-as defined by Um.
Even if the guru says what you want to hear, it's difficult for disciples to accept. Because in their minds, nothing supercedes what is said at the initiation.
Talking the talk is easy. Walking the walk is hard. Sadly, it seems the talkers are celebrated at every instance, while walkers are unnoticed. The world can really use more leaders who are walkers than talkers in every sphere.
Posted by: Di | August 29, 2021 at 07:23 PM
If I did not think I would not exist, because life is thought. There are no neutral thoughts. Neutral thoughts are impossible because all thoughts have power. (Subconscious thoughts count.)
Posted by: Sonia | August 29, 2021 at 10:29 PM
@ "If I did not think I would not exist, because life is thought."
The mystic agrees. Mind's continual thinking is in its DNA
but the real power to generate this 24x7 stream is derived
from spirit. So ceasing thinking is, well, unthinkable.
Descartes had "I think therefore I am." backward. It should
be "I (spirit, consciousness) exist therefore I think."
Posted by: Dungeness | August 30, 2021 at 12:31 AM
The vows people take at an wedding-ceremony, are also the same within a particular social-cultural group but they are not understood and lived by all in the same way.
For better and worse .... The worse comes, has to come.... and then?!
What is needed to overcome "the worse", to live through it?!
Other things are needed than that vow.
Seeds can fall on all sorts of grounds.
Seed is the same, but not the ground, the climate etc.
Seed will sprout, grow and bloom, only under given conditions, conditions that are not in the hand of the seed.
And as it seems the "western" soil is not so fertile or has quickly ehausted its nourishing qualities.
Posted by: Um | August 30, 2021 at 01:26 AM
I was raised Baptist. I was baptized in that faith at age 7 or 8 by choice. I was really devout until I turned 18 and got baptized into a different Christian faith that had some profoundly different views about the soul than the Baptist Church teaches. Then I left that and embarked upon a metaphysical journey. Started reading about Buddhism and joined meditation group at the Shambalah Center. Eventually ran into RSSB.
Lots of Western religions lost their luster after a while, but each of them were part of my journey. Even RS was part of my journey. It brought me to where I am today.
I don’t know how many times I have to say this, but harping on karma and sins only makes people act worse. It instills fear, guilt and hatred. It’s the opposite of love. But RS like the Clergy believe that fear is the only way to control people's behavior. It’s fundamentally UNtrue.
Posted by: Sonia | August 30, 2021 at 10:44 AM
Things, karma also, are what they are
often not what the look like,
let alone how they are presented
let alone how they are seen.
In my youth when Christianity was more or less still alive, listening to our parents and grandparents, we came to understand, that some forms of Christianity are more of a burden for people than others and also, that within a given denomination, for some religion was something that brought a smile on their face and for others it wrinkle their faces before getting old, due to their fears, preoccupation with sins etc.
In most protestant churches of these days the vicars would in their sermons, with drama in their voices hammer it into the minds of the audience that they were SINNERS.
Those who become later satsangis are not just satsangis , but rk satsangis, Protestant, satsangis etc etc. ... German Satsangis are also different from the Greek, the Indian, let alone the american, who have a rather strange preoccupation with religion, even huzur would point that out
Posted by: um | August 30, 2021 at 11:00 AM
To make my point clear ...
yes their are religions that stress sin etc and others not.
An then their are the "consumers" of religion, they do it according to their own taste.
I remember stories about priests going yearly from family to family to discuss the birth of children. Some women, mothers suffered from that pressure and gave birth to more children than they wanted. but that was just a part of that community. Other women heard the same admonitions and just continued doing their own thing.
We were visited several times a year by a prior of the Augustine order, my dad, peace be upon his lovely soul, would use all tricks he had upon his sleeve to have the prior leave the house more or less drunk.....no fear was installed in our hearts.
Karma, does not impress me in any way, neither positive or negative. If it exist it is a correct way of handling facts.
Those who sow wheat need to to fear to reap thistles and those that sow thistles cannot expect to be rewarded with wheat.. it has nothing to do with rewards or punishment, and the most kind and just system to explain the facts of live ... but ... if it exists I do not know and I do not care.
Posted by: um | August 30, 2021 at 11:46 AM
Well, first of all, RSSB (or GSD) is against women using birth control. I don’t really care about that, but wanted to let you know… He also says not to spay or neuter animals.
Anyway, there is karma but there is also “forgiveness” which is the undoing of karma. Back in Charan’s day satsangis believed that a multitude of sins could be removed by physical darshan from the Master. Charan said that’s the main reason he went to satsang when Great Master was alive.
GSD changed that. He says over and over again that the Master cannot take on your karmas or “remove a multitude of sins/karmas”. Two critically different philosophies of the path.
So, don’t wait around for the darshan…
Posted by: Sonia | August 30, 2021 at 02:39 PM
There is literally not one cell in his body that believes in the forgiveness of karmas in any form whatsoever. You just have to meditate and hope you reach Sach Khand or else you’re coming back again… by his philosophy.
All I can say is he’s lucky I volunteered to be the Angel of Death. I’m giving everyone a free pass. The way I see it, if everyone goes to heaven then there will no longer be a hell. (Just somethin’ to think about…)
Posted by: Sonia | August 30, 2021 at 02:47 PM
@ "There is literally not one cell in his body that believes in the forgiveness of karmas in any form whatsoever. You just have to meditate and hope you reach Sach Khand or else you’re coming back again… by his philosophy."
That's always been the response. Karma initiates an inviolable
chain of act/reaction. But a "sword blow can become a pin prick"
through forgiveness. On the other hand, meditation and sincere
repentance is the only way to invoke forgiveness.
Of course, who meditates/repents :) It's far easier to go to a Q&A
session and beseech a GIHF for an escape/forgiveness. Then, as
an after thought, beg that family, neighbors, friends, even pets get
in on the "karma forgiveness" lotto too. Is it any wonder GSD has
to come across as a karma hard-liner :)
Posted by: Dungeness | August 30, 2021 at 05:44 PM
Forgiveness is not a lotto. It’s an attitude. In truth there is no such thing as forgiveness because there is nothing to forgive. However, it’s a concept that teaches us God is love. It’s a concept that helps us be kinder, gentler, and more understanding of others as well as ourselves. Karma is quite violable. With the right attitude and right steps taken to make amends. Yes, there is cause and effect but there is nothing balanced about karma.
There is NOTHING balanced about the concept of karma. It isn’t a law, it’s a concept. One person can commit a minor infraction and crucify themselves a thousand times over for that one crime. On the other hand, there are those who commit heinous crimes without conscience or regret who never suffer consequences… not to the extent that someone with false guilt does about a much more minor “sin”.
Cause and effect is real. It’s scientific. It is balanced. Both forwards and backwards it is balanced. The concept of karma is a completely different monster.
People don’t have to live in fear of retribution by some insane God in order to be good, loving people. Look at athiests—the majority are very conscientious. They don’t fear hell or another life but they have basic human decency.
And no one is GIHF unless you say that we are ALL GIHF. Not that we all have the potential to be, but that we’re born that way. There is absolutely no difference in one soul from another. None whatsoever. And if you believe the mind is the realm of illusions then you should know that illusions aren’t who we are.
People only act loving when they are taught love. Teach people fear and you are teaching them the God is malevolent.
Posted by: Sonia | August 30, 2021 at 10:44 PM
In deep meditation you are outside the reach of karma, cause and effect, and all that conditioning that forces even your thoughts to conform to the relentless tyranny of your genetic code and all the impressions it sets you up to capture.
So free yourself. Go there. Spend time there. Spend time outside of time and "karma". Then you forgive yourself.
And only then you can truly forgive others,, free of the impact of their actions, even upon your thoughts.
When you can transcend thinking,, setting aside thought, you free yourself.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | August 31, 2021 at 12:12 AM
Where guilt comes in is where your own conscience tells you that you have done something wrong.
Meditation helps you calmly sort that out. What is your guilt? And what is the guilt trip being laid upon you by others?
In the calm of meditation, you have the strength to face what you have done, accept responsibly for it, and act to make amends as best you can.
And in the calm of meditation, you have the objectivity to discriminate your conscience from the imposition of others upon your psyche: the gas-lighting and psychic blackmail that people do to reach other constantly and without thinking.
And in the singular peace of meditation you have the ultimate power to remove and reject for all time, those layers and emerge as you truly are. And that is joy. That is love. You are that.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | August 31, 2021 at 12:23 AM
@ "Forgiveness is not a lotto. It’s an attitude. In truth there is no such thing as forgiveness because there is nothing to forgive. However, it’s a concept that teaches us God is love. "
Agree love is always the answer. But forgiveness can become
a "lotto" game. That game is a side effect of arguably the most
powerful drug in creation: the notion that action, sensation, even
our thought comes without a cost. A free thrill ride on the roller
coaster of karma.
After the ride's over, you obsessively scan for a beat-the-system
escape, a winning lotto ticket, or even just a balm to soothe the
hurt. But here is no "out" beyond forgiveness coming from that
perfection called GIHF. Not one on a stage. GIHF is within and
is our real identity whether we realize it yet or not.
Posted by: Dungeness | August 31, 2021 at 04:25 AM
@Dungeness @Spence @777
You know, only the most self-righteous of people are anti forgiveness / pro Old Testament karma theorists.
What makes you think you don’t have 5 more lives to come back to. By your standards you have 10 lives at least. Seriously, if God were to judge you as you judge others, I can assure you that you will have many future returns to this world. I don’t think you are assessing yourselves properly. Your judgement is definitely skewed.
Posted by: Sonia | August 31, 2021 at 05:56 AM
Wow! I just had an epiphany! That is exactly what’s wrong with this world, that’s the fallacy of all religions—self righteousness.
Holy 🐄. That’s it in a nutshell.
Posted by: Sonia | August 31, 2021 at 06:07 AM
"Dungeness @Spence @777
" You know, only the most self-righteous of people are anti forgiveness / pro Old Testament karma theorists.
"What makes you think you don’t have 5 more lives to come back to. By your standards you have 10 lives at least. Seriously, if God were to judge you as you judge others, I can assure you that you will have many future returns to this world."
You have the power to forgive yourself, and all others around you. It's in you. And it's a very healthy thing to do.
Forgiveness has to do with you, not anyone else. We ask for God's forgiveness so we can learn to forgive ourselves, and all those around us.
That's what He wants.
So, if you can eliminate all those impressions on your mind, then you are closer to God.
In intimacy with God there are no barriers. Then, you are God!
But the cost of that is to be One with everyone else, to see God in others and serve them lovingly, because of the God you see in them.
As for the old testament, read about the day of Jubilee, and the Scapegoat.
Even in that book there are rituals for complete emancipation and forgiveness. Yes, people required rituals. But it means nothing unless you feel that forgiveness in your own heart.
Laws only exist to protect innocent people from those who would harm them. So guilt and sin, karma all stem from that.
But if that book of kindness is written in your heart, nothing can touch that.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | August 31, 2021 at 09:35 AM
@ Sonia: "You know, only the most self-righteous of people are anti forgiveness / pro Old Testament karma theorists."
I think karma theory is getting a bad rap as a myth wielded by
cruel, judgmentmal, church-y figures to instill fear in their flocks.
Now, your indictment seems to have widened to anyone who
doesn't agree with this assessment. The thing is... mysticism,
unlike religions, doesn't encourage blind "karma belief" but
urges doubters to follow a path of mindfulness/devotion to
validate belief/faith inside. At no point will mystics, RSSB
included, say thou shall believe sheep-like in theories you
Mystics et al are not "anti-forgiveness" as alleged. In fact,
love and forgiveness are the escape clauses from the
relentless machinery of karma. But, don't accept that either.
Not even from GIHF sitting on a stage. Again, see the truth
within. It's the cure for unproven summary judgments.
Posted by: Dungeness | August 31, 2021 at 04:23 PM
I just want to hear him say that he is not God in Human Form.
Posted by: Sonia | August 29, 2021 at 12:51 PM
He has said it many times in the q and a sessions listen carefully and you will hear it repeated
Posted by: Jen from Austin | August 31, 2021 at 04:35 PM
If none of the satsangis believed he was GIHF then there wouldn’t be a Dera. Somehow most satsangis still believe he’s GIHF. Maybe if he actually said it straight out instead of in such a way that you have to listen carefully, people would get the message. Why so indirect about it? Why not just flat out say it. It’s important for people to know so that they stop worshiping him. But maybe that’s bad for business…
Posted by: Sonia | August 31, 2021 at 08:47 PM
Of course, saying the Master isn’t GIHF goes against all the teachings that RS is built upon. He’d being challenging it’s foundation at the core. (And that’s why he’s afraid to be direct about the truth.)
Posted by: Sonia | August 31, 2021 at 08:50 PM
Sonia I don’t think he can be more direct and its pretty clear on many instances so I’m not sure what your hearing or watching. Obviously I am watching something different from you.
Posted by: Jen from Austin | August 31, 2021 at 11:09 PM
Gods aren’t supreme. HE understands that very well.
Once upon a time there was a god who found himself alone and very angry that no one occupied his home. When someone came to visit him his heart turned to stone. He didn’t want to be there all alone but couldn’t welcome the guest into his home for fear that they might leave again. So he built a wall to trap his guest. And the wall I’m speaking of was a “simple” test. The guest understood exactly what the test would mean and fled before the very last scene.
The god was so angry that he sent his dogs to chase the guest and bring them back to his home. But the guest refused to be part of his scheme.
Eons later the god met that guest on a road and asked, why didn’t you come see me in my home? The guest shuttered for all it could remember was the test. So they continued going their separate ways until one day the god realized he had to tear down that wall if he ever wanted a guest in his home.
Posted by: Sonia | August 31, 2021 at 11:15 PM
If you find that divinity within yourself, what complaint has any hold on you? How important can any problem in this world be?
If you find that divinity within yourself,, what problem, set back, demand or fear can have any hold on you? You laugh at such things. You can't help laughing in joy.
In an endless illuminated cave of overflowing treasure, opened with the key of love for the Master, the key he gave you, all debts are paid, in that instant.
And the rest of your life is merely writing out and lovingly mailing small checks.
So long as people experience this in the presence of their beloved Teacher, their Teacher will be God in the flesh for their students. Nothing will ever change that.
No small thinking, forever planning to get the day's food, has any relevance at the banquet. Rather, that banquet ends such thinking. It evaporates naturally the moment we enter the feast in the Lord's temple.
So, find that within yourself. All questions and concerns are answered there.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | September 01, 2021 at 12:40 AM
The "god" in the story is the seeker.
And the "guest" in the story is the Lord.
The seeker has all the tests and traps, caught in illusions, trying to weigh and label infinity in space. Hopeless.
On the day the god realized they had to tear down the walls, that notion popped into their head when a beam of sunlight peirced the wall of their home.
They stepped outside to see the guest had been toiling all along to dismantle that wall, piece by piece. The guest has done all the work.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | September 01, 2021 at 01:14 AM
@ Spence : "They stepped outside to see the guest had been toiling all along to dismantle that wall, piece by piece. The guest has done all the work."
I'm reminded of that beautiful refrain from "Don't Dream it's Over"
by "Crowded House":
"Hey now, Hey now
When the world comes in
They come, they come
To build a wall between us
We know they won't win."
Posted by: Dungeness | September 01, 2021 at 02:29 AM
"… Now I'm walking again
To the beat of a drum
And I'm counting the steps to the door of your heart
Only shadows ahead
Barely clearing the roof
Get to know the feeling of liberation and release"
Posted by: Spence Tepper | September 01, 2021 at 07:12 AM
Sonia shhhhh don’t tell anyone you are GIHF yourself you just don’t know it. 🤫
Posted by: Jen from Austin | September 01, 2021 at 09:26 AM
Posted by: Dungeness | August 31, 2021 at 04:23 PM
Well, that’s the first thing you’ve said in a long time that hasn’t annoyed me.
Posted by: Sonia | September 01, 2021 at 08:14 PM
Posted by: Spence Tepper | September 01, 2021 at 01:14 AM
It was actually based on true events. 😂
But I like your take on it.
Truthfully we’re all seekers. “What’s within has always been.” We keep searching for what we already have. It’s just every now and then you hit a “wall” that defies all humanly possible explanations. I guess that’s where all the soul searching really begins.
Posted by: Sonia | September 01, 2021 at 08:52 PM
@ Sonia: "Well, that’s the first thing you’ve said in a long time that hasn’t annoyed me."
Whew, the toiling guest has opened a chink in the wall.
Posted by: Dungeness | September 01, 2021 at 10:30 PM
"Truthfully we’re all seekers. “What’s within has always been.” We keep searching for what we already have. It’s just every now and then you hit a “wall” that defies all humanly possible explanations. I guess that’s where all the soul searching really begins."
Excellent!! (I really like it).
When we stop being seekers, observers, and try to be philosophers, we are disconnected and living in the past.
When we stay open and observant, students, seekers, we are rewarded with direct perception, direct experience. So of course when reality doesn't conform to expectations, the student of discovery tosses expectations aside. The barrier was expectation, and the divided attention it steals from us.
No expectations, and reality is amazing, shocking, impossible, absurd, and unapologetic.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | September 02, 2021 at 08:17 AM
In that little story that I wrote (true story) “I” am not the god. Just sayin’… if anything I would have been the goddess.
Posted by: Sonia | September 02, 2021 at 10:06 AM
In the world of gods and godesses, goddesses are way more powerful. This earth situation is mind boggling…
Posted by: Sonia | September 02, 2021 at 11:56 AM
Sonia please watch today's episode 3rd September Q&A of Babaji and he has answered the question of GIF.
Posted by: Solomon | September 03, 2021 at 08:08 AM