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August 05, 2021


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I placed my whole mind on it. But they all had a different opinion....

My watch said I was running late, so I reset it....

I tried to recall exactly what was to happen

The world rolls on but I pick my moments....

@ Brian: "Any amount of introspection will reveal that we tend to spend most of our time in either what was or what might be. Perhaps we should take this very seriously -- this idea that our very existence is contingent on being extended nonlocally in time. "

Actually, the mystic argues we spend all of our time in the past.
Creation occurred in "no-time". Thoughts, forms, events... all
of it in happened at once. We seem to exist in that vanishingly
small sliver of a moment between past and future. As soon as
we conceive a thought, it's past. What makes us perceive a
future? Preface an event, even any thought, with hope or fear
or simply a sense that it hasn't yet happened, and presto, it's in
the future. Without that sneaky intro, we just witness the past.
Serially, one event, one thought after another. All in the past.

Why the deception? Mystics call in a thrill ride through duality.
We wanted to feel sensation. Love, hate, hope, despair, the
whole gamut of feeling. What a horrible game, you say. No,
you are its author. It had to a good game. Not too easy nor
one without an escape clause. Your inner Mama didn't birth
a simpleton. You will go home in the end. That's the way it
was scripted.

I only remembered "now", but then I recalled "now" remembered me instead.

My watch, Reality, runs a little fast.

If I follow it exactly Reality becomes a time machine!

Every day it takes me a few minutes into the future, out beyond the "now" everyone else is remembering.

And I can go back in time for those few minutes to redo any small mistakes. Or take my mind off it and let the world catch up to me.

Yes, I recall "now" once in a while. But such games are frowned upon.

"Perhaps we should take this very seriously -- this idea that our very existence is contingent on being extended nonlocally in time. Many of the rather unsettling implications we've explored in Part 5 have hinged on an assumption that there is a state of a mind, a self, a consciousness, as it is right now.

Could there be something fundamentally wrong with this notion that could extricate us from some of those disturbing directions of thought?"


Isn't it a bit of both?

I mean, on one hand one's mind is a process, certainly. On the other hand, much like looking at a cross-section under a microscope, I guess there's such a thing, after all, as the state of one's mind at some particular point. That is, to look at a cross-section under a microscope can be instructive and useful: which of course is not to say that that cross-section contains all the information on whatever it is we're studying. Or, to take another very different analogy, to look at a balance sheet can be instructive and useful; which of course is not to say that that snapshot contains all of the information of the business we're looking at.


Of course what you've presented here is just an excerpt --- a cross-section/snapshot that does not necessarily speak to the whole book!! --- but this leaves me a bit confused. I mean, if the author is simply trying to point out that the mind is a process rather than a thing, then the point is well taken, absolutely. But otherwise, to speak of looking at "state of mind" as "fundamentally wrong" is somewhat confusing, because just as it is short-sighted to think of a mind as static, as simply a "state", without also considering that it is a process, likewise it seems a bit blinkered to think of the mind as simply a process, that does not also admit of distinct states at distinct points in time.

Here's an elusive cosmological koan to beguile you

BUT this view is even more slippery, elusive, and beguiling. 

The thought of having a wild egotistical baba like Gurinder Singh Dhillion on the loose with a unstable mind ridiculing himself through life and embarrassing the rs cult single handedly too.
Live in the now and on your terms in life too.

Leave the so called GSD baba on the stage (shelf) where he belongs, who needs such a loose looney anyway...

Well said Manoj!
GSD thinks he created the universe ! and actually believes his own bullshit that he is a god ! Well he couldn't even create a religion without his greedy ego getting in the way, siphoning billions from his own nephews businesses! He's a sicko, psycho , narcissist, Sociopath, bully, tyrant, evil, demonic , Lucifer worshipper! Sangat, If he doesn't care about his own nephews, do you really think he cares about you - or is he just getting free labour for his investment in return for a false promise. Be careful he only cares about 1 person and that is himself.

Anthony Aguirre illustrates how the mind works in the same way our bodies do—vibrations. It’s all about vibrations. I keep saying this, the hippies were right. 😉

I saw GSD yesterday. I was with my husband. Probably the most peaceful time I’ve ever experienced with him because this time I didn’t view him as God. He’s a guru. Maybe not my guru but a guru no less. So, that changed my perception completely. Cleaned out my filters so to speak. Seeing him as he is and not as “God Almighty”, he seemed completely normal to me for the first time… in a good way. Totally non threatening. Before, when I followed that path, I used to have such extreme reactions to everything he said because I put so much weight on the idea that he was GIHF. We shouldn’t try to make gods out of people. That’s just weird.

Anyway, as a psychological experiment it was quite enlightening.

"We also understand that processes unfold in time, and by its very nature a process, which involves time, cannot be happening at an instant any more than an arrow can fly during a moment of zero duration."

Well this is odd for a physicist to write, since time and motion are defined in calculus as an infinite series of static points of zero duration. And these are the tools science uses to measure and understand reality.

"Yet we are often tempted to think about things like "your mind now" or "the person up until some point in time." We slice time into past, present, and future as if we might really slice it this way without doing terrible violence; but we can't, any more than we can take a slice out of a person to study the operation of their heart."

Dude, 128 slice CT scanner, with 3D imaging! We've been slicing the heart for years! And saving lives doing it!

Anthony, oh Anthony!

Time is...until it is no longer.

Consider this, please: All thoughts and sensations are historical...they are perceived but have already occurred. Here is an example: We all share the gyanendriyas - the five senses - as common human instrumentation for perceiving the external world and making appropriate decisions based on those sensations. It takes time for the nerves of each sense to convey the electro-chemical impulse, via the nervous system, to the sensorium in the brain. Some nerve impulses travel at 200 MPH...some as slow as 2 MPH. Time is required for the activation of the sense impression to make it to the brain at the top of our body and to be cognized.

Consider also that it takes some amount of time for the brain to dissect and interpret the electrical signals which constitute the sense impression. This adds to the total time it takes a normal brain to comprehend all the electrical stimulus of the neurons involved. It seems that sense-impressions are immediate and cognized at the very same time of the seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling or touching...but this is not true.

Thus it is clear that our entire perception and understanding of a single moment of time and all impressions we are subjected to IN THAT MOMENT - IS PAST TENSE...ALREADY DONE. Just as the visual perception of the sun, in any given moment, is "eight minutes old", so too is our brain's perception past-tense. But we believe it is simultaneous! Whether milliseconds or microseconds, our experience of the moment is historical. Time is required to convey the nerve impulse to the brain by the nerves involved AND time is required to charge up the neurons and associated electrical signals so that our brain can interpret what it believes to be a simultaneous sensation.

So, in my humble view, it is impossible to live in "the present now", especially if we base our NOW on the inputs from the five senses and the mental processing time of those delayed signals. If we do believe we are living in a true NOW (everyone does believe so), such a belief is FALSE due to the required time for the brain to both receive and interpret the neural electrical signals from each of the bodily senses.

Whew...I can't believe how hard it is to be "precise". Anyway, I trust you understand that our entire experience of external reality is HISTORICAL...IN THE PAST...ALREADY HAPPENED.

Now this information begs the question of "what in the world is truly going on"? Does the possibility of experiencing the NOW, free from the nervous system and the mental processing, even exist?

Humbly, oh yes. And this is where we start getting woo woo...where an individual wishes to experience their own awareness by their own awareness ONLY...free from admixture of all sensual and mental inputs altogether. This takes solitude, quiet, sincerity and a keen desire to look within, leaving the senses and the normal mind entirely behind.

Woo Hoo!

Not so fast pls:



Cyborgs can't sing


A great duet. Love that voice.

Musical Magic.

(Much like the way Aguirre mixes together philosophy and science.)

Since we don't have free will, then what does any of this matter?

Moreover, is this "I have no self" concept we've been reading about for 40 years practically realizable, or is it just existential pornography? Nagarjuna may have been a brilliant thinker, but in 2000 years I don't see evidence that no-self ideas actually work for the betterment of the individual or society.

You live by symbols. You have made up names for everything you see. Each one becomes a separate entity, identified by its own name. By this you carve it out of unity. By this you designate its special attributes, and set it off from other things by emphasizing space surrounding it. This space you lay between all things to which you give a different name; all happenings in terms of place and time; all bodies which are greeted by a name.

This space you see as setting off all things from one another is the means by which the world’s perception is achieved. You see something where nothing is, and see as well nothing where there is unity; a space between all things, between all things and you. Thus do you think that you have given life in separation. By this split you think you are established as a unity which functions with an independent will.

What are these names by which the world becomes a series of discrete events, of things unified, of bodies kept apart and holding bits of mind as separate awareness? You gave these names to them, establishing perception as you wish to have perception be. The nameless things were given names, and thus reality was given them as well. For what is named is given meaning and will then be seen as meaningful; a cause of true effect, with consequences inherent in itself.

This is the way reality is made by partial vision, purposefully set against the given truth. It’s enemy is wholeness. It conceives of little things and looks upon them. And a lack of space, a sense of unity or vision that sees differently, become the threats which it must overcome, conflict with and deny.

Yet does this other vision still remain a natural direction for the mind to channel its perception. It is hard to teach the mind a thousand alien names, and thousands more. Yet you believe this is what learning means; its one essential goal by which communication is achieved, and concepts can be meaningfully shared.

@ Tendzin
Every state has is own time é place - No Ego is the End

Maybe symbols but 4me Goose Bups - Any Chakra can produce them - Like them all !

I knew you would like- Guess - You like the text as well
So; BBJ was in the States ?
Was it just private?

In 2012 He came in Paris for flash_business but a few Sikhs were invited
. . . and One Gurl !

My FB account was partly destroyed by FB because I pronounced my anti-vax sentiments
like today most nurses and doctors in France are on the streets, even de pros
and go on STRIKES next week


@777, you should have a discussion about your anti vax sentiments with your pro vax Baba.

Yes, love the song and the lyrics.

Not private at all. It was a US tour. My husband is all about following the rules so he insisted on going to Fayetteville even though Chicago is much closer for us. And DC is still closer than Fayetteville. On a Saturday too!! I work remotely so took my work with me and lack of hot spot/cell reception nearly killed me. It was a big problem. Yet, I still learned something important. Fear comes from believing someone has power over you. I think that’s why people fear God. They want “God” to end everything bad that happens (all of our illusions) but they don’t want him controlling their lives. Catch 22.

@777, you should have a discussion about your anti vax sentiments with your pro vax Baba.

OK Sonia
Now I need to repeat for the 21th time
my stance about the Divinity
of BBJ

He is just the same divine as You and me, HE also needs meditations

The difference is that Charan has given the Package of Naam to distribute
Plus some work to do

He has the same eventual metaphysical knowledge as you and me
with the exception of (sudden intuitions ) related to those who receive the Naam_package

And this applies also to normal non metaphysical knowledge

We know that HE is not an economic genius and was duped by family
He is not an virologue nor physiologue and took advices that were wrong
God has a fantastic way to bring modifications in knowledge
by Serendipities
God ( which is our Soul) has many ways to give HiM & us
One is "revelations' - radiant or not
(You had them; most of us had them )
I can hardly believe he is pro 'genetic manipulations'
Did HE tell ? or did he answer questions about it?
oe is it hear-saying?
I think HE might be pro orthodox_vaxing a la Pasteur c q the Indian vax
The Pasteur institute will come with a traditional vaccin in Decembet-


Appreciate your explanation about GSD’s divinity. Actually makes you sound a little more sane. Lol

BTW, everything in medicine is genetically modified to some degree. Medicine works in the body by manipulating genetic material. But you do whatever makes you feel comfortable. ;)

@ 777

Is your stance about his divinity the same as that of your own guru Charan?
If Not why?
If Yes why?

@ expected Vaccine / Pasteur institute / december 2021


Appreciate your explanation about GSD’s divinity. Actually makes you sound a little more sane. Lol

Just read 5 of my 500 comments and U regret

Exactly the same for Beloved MaharaJI Hyper_Radiant Charan
Gurinder we have Both seen Radiant as well, Inside and outside°°

Let me declare : the further one ascends, the nano exponential seize lower one feels himself
. . . and that is without hypocrisy that Nanak says 100 times

"Thus says Nanak, The lowliest of the lowly,. . . . sacrifice I am unto Thee Oh Holly
that what pleaseth Thee is the oonly good done,
Oh Thou, The Eternal, The formless One"

Isn't it a perfect system , .. nobody will feel great
amidst the Greatness of Goose Bump Love

Adi Granth:
He who presumes and think to know ; . . is a fool amongst fools
and as such they go

°° means : all the time
Pasteur . . . not easy to discern the fake news and who owns what !!
and if Dr Charles Hoffe Spike is right

In your link:
Sanofi announced in December that its jab would be ready by the end of 2021 at best, and the group is now being encouraged by the government to help produce rival vaccines that have already been authorised for use in Europe.
They have already the perfect solutions - They make HCQ
and Sandoz makes Ivermectin see youtube , perfect as well
I take Artemisia Annua from Delhi one drop p/day which prevents too

@ 777
So if I understand what you wrote, .... this could be your stance about Charan:

Paraphrasing your words:
>>>My stance about the Divinity of Mah. Charan Singh is:

He was just the same divine as You and me.
HE also needed meditations.

Sar, Bhahadur Singh has given him the Package of Naam to distribute.
Plus some work to do.

He, Charan, had the same eventual metaphysical knowledge as you and me, with the exception of (sudden intuitions ) related to those who receive the Naam_package

And this applies also to normal non metaphysical knowledge<<<<

This would mean that questions put before him related to inner experiences, beginners or advanced, could have been answered by any of us, even those that had never inner experiences. .... as the man answering could have no inner knowledge himself.

Is that what you intend to say???

and ...@777 ...

If I read your words correctly, the physical master, as stated by Faqir Chand, doesn't know a thing and certainly not about the inner experiences of his disciples.

And when he said with open empty hands: "look, I am not sitting here empty handed .... he was just acting as a stage poet???

You and Spencer could do better!!!

@ 777

De plant wordt veel gekweekt in Madagaskar, voornamelijk als grondstof voor Artemisinine dat gebruikt wordt tegen malaria. Recent propageerde de president van dat land het gebruik van een drankje met onder meer het kruid er in als medicijn tegen COVID-19, analoog aan zijn Amerikaanse collega Trump die geloofde in een ander anti-malariamedicijn. Er is echter geen bewijs van enige werkzaamheid tegen het virus en vermoed wordt dat commerciële belangen debet zijn aan deze nieuwe hype.[16]. Het drinken van thee of een drankje waar het kruid in zit is niet aan te bevelen want zal niet werkzaam zijn. Wel wordt er door het Max Planck instituut onderzoek gedaan naar de beweerde effecten van de werkzame stof Artimisinine geëxtraheerd uit de plant. De WHO waarschuwt dat er geen enkel bewijs is dat COVID-19 voorkomen kan worden of behandeld kan worden met produkten uit plantmateriaal van de plant en dat het nog af te wachten is of er uit onderzoek naar de werkzame stof enig resultaat kan komen en raad gebruik van artimisia thee of drankjes af.[17]

ILet's restrict to the Soul here

I don't take artemisia théé
I guess that s from the leaces
I take oil extract from the roots
The taste is SO ugly that I do one drop in an empty capsule
and then after 24 hours the horrible smell is OFF / away
This is for us the only way to swell this hellish plant
The smell makes me think : "of course it's profylactic' - nobody wants to interaxt hahaha
and if it should fail I have IVM in stock which van be applied the whole first week
There are thousands of testimonials on youtube
They were first deleted but after so many complaints , now they are back

Now the FDA is forbidding N-acetyl cysteine which transforms graphene
so that you can get rid of it after being vaxed
I consider what happens on kids , the massive cardiomyelitis as karma ( like Mao c s )


and ...@777 ...
If I read your words correctly, the physical master, as stated by Faqir Chand, doesn't know a thing and certainly not about the inner experiences of his disciples.

That's correct up to the moment the disciple comes before HIM

The Faqir had some experiences
with intuitions/serendipities
and shouldn't have diminished the phenomenon as lies


I find God's mysterious handlings fantastic
Totally hidden for science

Hi Um
You wrote
"You and Spencer could do better!!!"

And you as well. We are on a journey of discovery. We should all hope for progress, do the work, and see what happens.

There is no finer and more portable laboratory where you have personal control over some of the elements than the human body and the human brain.

Therefore meditation practice is the most reliable means to get to any understanding of what is really in us in the subjective realms. Because objectively we are all bags of clay. The mystery is subjective, and the beauty, and the grandeur.

Reviewing the writings and experiences of others, and as well the results of science, can help us use this powerful tool of discrimination we have been given. And as well or own outer experiences can help us understand our Teacher a little better.

Objectively, meditation is powerful, and there is a broad range of forms that, used persistently, generate health benefits, Personal experiences of joy, even repair to our DNA!

The only question remains which form should we choose?

And that is the one we find within ourselves.

So, when I meditate, just to relax, here comes sound and Maharaji. That is the form hard wired into me. And always was so.

You might as well try to convince a Gay man not to be Gay. We are who we are. And we make the best of it.

Find the one in you, Um, find the path in you. As Rumi route, one light, many windows.

@ 777

>>ILet's restrict to the Soul here<<

I am sorry.
A person like myself, who is happy to be able to write the word "soul" at his age but otherwise has no clue whatsoever to what the word stands for, should not participate in explanations as put before us by you and Spence., people that have experiences up to Saxh Khand, the level their own physical teacher teacher, Charan, and his succesor are doubted to have reached.

I will not do it again.

@ Spence

>> So, when I meditate, just to relax, here comes sound and Maharaji. That is the form hard wired into me. And always was so.

You might as well try to convince a Gay man not to be Gay. We are who we are. And we make the best of it.<<

If I am able to believe abraham existed and that he has had experiences etc, it is no problem to accept an believe what you write about yourself.

My experience over the years has been the opposite ... the complete absence of anything you and 777 write about or the least bit of the so needed faith, devotion and not to [mis]use the L-word.

As for any teacher, everyone is a teacher. We influence each whether we like it or not. We are not concrete. We are sponges, despite our efforts. Truth and the effects of others, influences is. It is our human condition.

But rather than that to happen unconsciously, we can look using our discrimination, not to criticize, because we all have feet of clay. That's easy. That's the pot calling the kettle black. That's the hypocrite projecting our own low self esteem in the vitriole we hurl at others. What we see is largely our own failures and faults. Our sensitivity to our own weaknesses, which should draw us to do the hard work if addressing them, instead becomes the filter we see others through.

So you can look to anyone and find flaws.

But you could use a different super power and find good lessons in nearly everyone around you.

As for Gurinder, we should all be as mentally tough as he is in managing ourselves and our affairs, without excuses. So, be as tough as you can on yourself in a constructive way, demanding progress, while forgiving yourself and forgetting your errors and those of others. Stay focused on what you can do, your next step. Really tough. More than mentally tough. Gurinder tough.

@ Spence

Take advise from your own words:

>>You might as well try to convince a Gay man not to be Gay. We are who we are. And we make the best of it.<<

Hi Um
You wrote
"My experience over the years has been the opposite ... the complete absence of anything you and 777 write about or the least bit of the so needed faith, devotion and not to [mis]use the L-word."

If you haven't even experienced the pleasure of any form of meditation, then that's where you should start. Forget about the myths. There's hard science behind the joy and physical benefits of meditation. Do that.

Don't try to be a second hand anyone else. Use the powers within you to accomplish what is within you. Follow the science and do your brain, heart, lungs and DNA a world of good.

Find the path waiting for you. The one you will actually stick to, and forget about myths.

When a mystical truth shows up in your meditation, then you can accept, test, etc what it is. But whatever it is, it is a discovery, and worthy of more investigation and practice.

It makes no sense to shout at others "I don't live where you live!"

Of course, you live where you live. And there is a healthy meditation practice you can find in that town also.

Then, once you have something, you will be able to understand and accept the variety of experience others have as different pathways to the same subjective truths, each appropriate to the individual. One size does not fit all. We all have feet. We all wear shoes. But one size or style won't work for everyone.

All roads lead to Rome. The body is much the same, and the subjective realms within it. But if you are starting in Russia you must take a different path than if you start in Britain. And if you are in Luxembourg, You must find a different path to Rome than the one in Britain or Russia. No use bitching about it. Unless it helps you finally accept this basic fact. It is no loss or gain by simply accepting this fact : It is impossible to get to Rome using a path that doesn't start in your home.

And the sooner you accept it, the sooner you take responsibility to find the path from your place, not mine or anyone else's location. Destination is the same.

@ Spence

>> It makes no sense to shout at others "I don't live where you live!"<<

To you too ... I am sorry.
I will not do it again.

To finish in a pathetic way about the path that leads to Rome, let the poet Dante be the speaker:

Midway upon the journey of our life
I found myself within a forest dark,
For the straightforward pathway had been lost.

Ah me! how hard a thing it is to say
What was this forest savage, rough, and stern,
Which in the very thought renews the fear.

So bitter is it, death is little more;
But of the good to treat, which there I found,
Speak will I of the other things I saw there.

And Spence ...

He said ... to give credit to the bricks in the roof, there has to be bricks in the foundation .... let me add to that .... bricks that never see light.

You and 777 are the top highest bricks in the roof... according your own testemonies.

Read on, Um. Dante's fear paralyzed him. But his ability to accept encouragement from a helpful messenger reawakens his strength to move forward.

She asks him...
"Why art not fearless, resolute, and free,
Since three such beings, beautiful and blest !
Even in the courts of heaven, watch over thee,
And so much good my promise hath exprest ? ”

And he replies.

" As flowerets, by the frosty breath of night
Shut up and drooping, soon as daylight glows ,
Spring on their stems all open and upright,
Even so my wearied courage freshly rose ;"

@ Spence

I will let you know if that ever happens.

All these things have been discussed, spoken en written about, without no avail.

As far as THIS world is concerned I am however neither blind or deaf. I do remember clearly his answers.

To end here with one of them:

The pull must come from within ... and .. IF, it is not there, it is just not there ... and ... there is nothing you can do about it.

Um, you wrote
"He said ... to give credit to the bricks in the roof, there has to be bricks in the foundation .... let me add to that .... bricks that never see light."

I don't think you understood this correctly. He was referring to our place in this one tiny physical life

Not our place with Him within. His expectation is that we all are already with Him at the top. In Sach Kand or the five regions beyond.

Within you can soar, you can glide forth through all the worst of it just as Dante learned to do. But for that you must find what is in you. The Virgil and the Beatrice within you.

I'm in the dark at the bottom with you, Um. In this physical life. Right in the foundation.

Everyone living here is.

Which is the foundation of all, rightly understood. Where the power of the entire building works.

The engines of creation are right here.

So if you are in the foundation, build a better one.

Build the foundation right here, in this physical life.

The Cathedrals of Rome took lifetimes to build. The workers knew they would never see those towers completed in their life. But those towers would not have been possible, built by generation after generation as the noble heritage of hundreds of nameless families and their well known benefactors, had the foundations been flawed.

Build a better foundation. Start now. Give the Um of tomorrow, and the next day, and the next year, a priceless gift, something solid to build upon. A gift that will offer sanctuary, protection and inspiration, even joy, in the challenging years ahead, as you walk through all this.

Hi Um
You write
"The pull must come from within ... and .. IF, it is not there, it is just not there ... and ... there is nothing you can do about it."

You are only here because the "Pull" brought you here.

Love and hate are two sides of the same coin. You only need to stand back from the emotions to see it.

And to understand the necessity of movement, effort, even struggle.

Do not let all that your mind reports paralyze you one more minute. It isn't logical to be passive.

@ Spence

What I had to write I did there is nothin left to be said.

"Build thee more stately mansions, O my soul,
As the swift seasons roll!
Leave thy low-vaulted past!
Let each new temple, nobler than the last,
Shut thee from heaven with a dome more vast,
Till thou at length art free,
Leaving thine outgrown shell by life’s unresting sea!"
From The Chambered Nautilus by Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

So, it seems that all of the more rational/realized satsangis recognize that GSD is not GIHF (anymore than the rest of us). He’s a teacher, a guru with some sort of experience. We’ll leave it at that. However, in the Indian culture idol worship is prominent. So trying to make a human being into a God might have seemed like a step up from worshiping gold statues and such. Actually, didn’t the Romans do the same? I had no idea how bizarre their beliefs were until I watched this historical series about the Romans and the Druids.

Anyway, a lot cultures engage in idol worship. Some people take the symbol of the cross way too seriously. Myriads of examples of idol worship around the world—every culture and nation.


It's completion

Better than Ravi Shankar learning you to play the Sarangi°
Mozart learning U piano

We really can learn it and what I avoided in the discussion is HOW HE REALLY HELPS°° THE STUDENT
and then the student is equally goood
The new method is accepted

Lot s of Fun


°° Is included in the naam package
not to speak about wWhat really Shabd is
Shabd making a trillion Galaxies shaming themselves ad infinum :-)

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