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July 29, 2021


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Posted by: emoji Tao Te Ching | September 01, 2021 at 08:27 AM


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Nice video

I don’t believe anyone can take on another person’s karma. The thing is (and this is really, really, really hard for most people to wrap their head around) I don’t believe in karma. I believe in cause and effect, but calculating everything and karma, no.

BTW, found a new TV series that my family is enjoying. It’s on apple TV. I think you can also watch it on IMDb.

It’s funny and kind of silly but has some good lessons in it.

Ted Lasso: https://youtu.be/3u7EIiohs6U

Spoiler alert:


To All,…….I posted the following on Facebook this morning, where none of you have communicated with me in the past. But some of you here have crossed a paths with me, so hope to see you in the bleachers on my Judgement Day?

Today, is Sept. 11, 2021. While listening on my portable radio, during my morning walk, to a Commentator at the New York Memorial site interviewing various survivors of the attack on the Twin Towers share their memories, of where they were when they Airplanes flew in to the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. Conspiracy Theories will continue , of Who did it, and why, for hundreds of years to come, I suspect. But my memory was where I happened to be, at the time. I was at work in So. California , watching it all unfold , while looking at a little portable TV in my bosse’s office. Little did I know what God had in store for me, the next 20 years, up to today! Like many other Americans that historical day, I wasn’t looking forward to the next week, let alone the next 20 years! But I am still here, 20 years later, unknowing how much longer I might survive in this old body, known as Jim. If The Good Lord doesn’t protect me from Covid and the devil,…….well I’ll hopefully meet you on the other side along with every other person who has crossed my Path and made some type of contact with me durning my almost 80 years since the Soul now occupying Jim arrived on the planet again. In Meditation this morning, I imagined dying , and my Soul arriving to what the Bible calls “The Judgement Seat of God.” I imagined that, that Judgement Seat might be much different than most Folks imagine. Instead of old bearded Souls sitting on golden thrones wearing White Robes , I imagined sitting on the ground cross legged in my Meditation position in the center of a Foot Ball field, with the bleachers all around me, packed with every human and animal that I had ever had contact with, as far as my eyes could see, who each had a Vote to rate me from 1 to 10, with 1 being negative, and 10 being positive. As each clicked their number on their Key Boards, the Tally of my Score of the past life as Jim appeared on a gigantic Screen for all to see, declaring me “GUILTY,…….or INNOCENT” of deserving to be punished, or rewarded, based on my past actions by Jim since birth.
My Final Judge turned out to be a big surprise! A big mirror appeared from the sky above me, and was placed directly in front of me, as the Crowd in the bleachers cheered, booed, cursed, screamed profanities and praises!! As I faced my Judge, now the reflection of the old man Jim, with images of Jim every 10 year increment back to a baby in my Father’s arms, a past life review of all I had helped or harmed, in any way, shape or form , in the brief moments where our Path crossed , quickly unfolded in huge Screen for all the Attendees in the bleachers to view!
Will those reading this be sitting in those bleachers on my Judgement Day, and if so, how will you Vote?

Hi Jim!!

Hope you and your wife are keeping well and happy, despite COVID, the devil, and your advancing years! :)

You mention Facebook (which I never got into from it's inception, and a decision I increasingly see the value of), I keep getting emails from "my Instagram account" showing me "people I know" I could connect to or what not, and indeed it appears to show a panel including some persons or family I know from across the globe - one of them is you!!! The really strange thing, though, is that I don't have an instagram account and I've never used it, so it is really scary how something I have never joined or use knows so much about me!!

Anyway - wow, that is quite the imagination you exercised in meditation that morning! :) Thanks for sharing - was this a literal vision, or more so purely an exercise in imagination?

I'll give you a ten Jim.

More importantly, maybe next time you sit, you sit down and mark everybody YOU ever came across out of ten. And keep doing this until you can genuinely give everyone a ten out ten, even your most hated oppressors and enemies.

I am an occultist aware of many, many powerful and secret practices, yogas, medicines etc.

None is more powerful than metta, trust me.

Lots of talks on RS forums about babas and bibis, meditation techniques, this or that samadhi, or magical syhcnronicity.

The only weapon that you will have at your disposal in that realm is your love, all else will be worthless.

Trust me, I am an occultist.


Hey - are you still driving your Harley? Maybe you should listen to this whilst out riding:


Very, very loud - that'll make you feel young again :)

All the best Jim, take care of yourself :)


Hi Manjit,…thanks for the Ten. Wife I are O.K. Unjabbed, and no Covid. Yes, I am either on my Harley or Spyder 2-3 hours every day it’s between 40-100 Degrees F with 15% or below rain forecast. It’s my outlet to be out. In Nature.
Unless the Bots have identified our past conversations here and on RSS , where else could they pair us up as possible friends on Facebook or Instagram? I am on both, but rarely post on Instagram. The only other possible connection is the Bots must also have read our few past private conversations on Yahoo Emails. Where else could it be? I have never outed your real Name to any one.
On another note, I still monitor RSS where I am still blocked from posting by Bean, along with Chris and a few others. But I see you FINALLY have met not only your intellectual Match, in not only the Yoga and Eastern Philosophies, but even the Plant and Drug experiences. He definitely is a Gift to the site, and is a breath of fresh air with What he contributes. Even Lane doesn’t dare to challenge him, because from all I have read, he has more real personal experience than any one I ever read over there, and even Jiv becomes tongue tied after reading his posts. Plus, he is humble about it, and while sharing, does not wear any Ego on his sleeves.He had , or still might have his own site, where he posts the same stuff, but it only had 8 members including me, as I recall, and no one posts there except him. So he must have got bored and needed a little Camaraderie, which is why he showed up on RSS. I think he was there before, under a different Avatar, but. Left, and has now returned. But all of his experimentation with Drugs was when he was half the age he is now, and since he does not recommend use or experimentation of even your favorite, Shrooms, I also recommend you also take his advice and abstain. You have too sharp a mind to risk fucking it up by a bad trip, that you can’t control, if you injest a dose of tainted had shit. It only takes once to blow your mind to no return to being in control. But what fo I know? Well, I know enough to have survived almost 80 years, and unlike poor Brian, am still able to piss with out a Catheter.
In answer to your question about my landing in a Football field where every one who had crossed my path in life sat in the bleachers to enter their Vote 1-10 on. weather I helped or hindered them , it was all imaginary thoughts while I was in. Meditation, which I still do 2-3 hours daily, still expecting some new Revelations to pop up from who knows where. I. Never get bored,, the good thing is, I Control when I go in and when I want to come out, unlike Drug tripping. Also, notice who my final judge was in my meditation. Those in the bleachers only. Voted to recommend, but only One final Judge did the sentencing.
Jim Sutherland

Haha, hi Jim! You have a very imaginative and curious interpretation of the world, which I personally find quite endearing :)

Re Instagram, it must be due to you sending me emails to my yahoo address, I imagine. I wasn't imagining or insinuating anything more sinister than that, no need for tin foil hats just yet!

Re. RSS, yes, Vajrasrijnana is indeed a refreshing and most interesting addition to the forum......I've gone from checking out the forum once a month to every day recently - great stuff!

Definitely a refreshing absence of ego in his fascinating wide and varied contributions, yes, you can sense that. Orange sunshine can do that to you, I suppose :) Though I'm not quite sure why you bring Lane or Jivatman into it :-/

You write: "But all of his experimentation with Drugs was when he was half the age he is now, and since he does not recommend use or experimentation of even your favorite, Shrooms, I also recommend you also take his advice and abstain. You have too sharp a mind to risk fucking it up by a bad trip, that you can’t control, if you injest a dose of tainted had shit."

That's really kind of you to think that, and I understand your concern. The problem is, seriously and honestly, I am too old and long in the tooth to be ingesting "tainted bad shit", and I know implicitly with absolute certainty - just as sure as you are that you are awake, now - that I would not have a "bad trip" with "good shit" let alone with lasting psychological consequences, it is to me a non-sensical suggestion as I am deeply familiar with myself, and the terrain. I fucking welcome "bad trips"......please, come, let's see what the problem is here :) I fear the risk of you riding that Harley is exponentially greater.......but shit happens, right, we can't be afraid to live our lives?!

But, Jim, there is a profound added irony here - despite my advocacy for certain psychedelics in highly specific contexts and quantities, and psilocybin in particular, I haven't actually had a psychedelic dose of mushrooms (or any other entheogen) for 3 or 4 years, and I have no desire or intention of going out of my way to procure the kind of assured quality I want (though fairly easily done :). Furthermore, I was having visionary experiences and spontaneous samadhis since I can remember, was having consciously induced "OBEs" or "astral projection" by the time I was a teen, multi-dimensional visionary experiences, "kundalini awakening" and non-dual realisation (after meeting our very own "Osho" :) by the time I was 23........all without so much of a drop of wine in my system for periods of years (although I did smoke tobacco.......a habit which all of these experiences didn't prevent - like Soamiji - but which was shed spontaneously, overnight, after a high dose psilocybin journey about 5 or 6 years ago now without a SINGLE MOMENT of desire to smoke since.....despite having absolutely no conscious desire or intent to stop prior.....just a fact of reality).

So my apparent advocacy isn't really for or about me, so much. It is what you would call in your old Christian roots "giving testimony".

After decades of following metaphysical practices like Rosicrucianism and RS, you still have to use your imagination in your morning meditation, and have concern and anxiety about death, and wonder how you will be remembered in a world where ultimately we will all be forgotten, far quicker than we think.

My advocacy is merely to make people aware there are more direct, actually applicable for the average person, techniques for a direct, experiential gnosis that helps us shed our fears, concerns about living and dying.

That's all.

Really no need to worry about me Jim :)

PS - really poor show and below the belt comment about Brian, I personally find. You may find that all this Jesus, Charan, RS, soul, sach khand nonsense is all worthless bullshit, and only your kindness, compassion, empathy etc will be weighed.........

Peace to all

Dear Manjit,.,,,just a couple more comments before you disappear again, as for me on my Harley, I have put 16,000 miles on it since I bought it 3 years ago, in addition to my Spyder, my 2nd one that I have put 59,000 miles on. The 1st one had 55,000 miles on it in the 5 years I had it, plus, I have been riding motor cycles before you were even born! I am safer on my Harley than walking up my 3 flights of stairs carrying groceries!
As for worrying about you messing up your brain with poisoned Shrooms, ….do you ever consider that young people could be reading the sites where you challenge readers to take mega hits of Shrooms? What if inexperienced youngsters that respect you from reading many of your posts buy poisoned Shrooms or other drugs from a Dealer and over dose and ruin their lives? I would never challenge inexperienced riders to mount a Harley, with out first starting with a bicycle , and working up to small Scooters before mounting an 800 Lb. Harley Beast with 1600 CCs and expecting to tame it!
Jim S.

and only your kindness, compassion, empathy etc will be weighed.........
add foregiveness and no thoughts



Nice to see you again
hear your adventures

"Karma" goes analogue, not digital
Analogue makes everything possible

So that the Anti-Vaxxers don’t kill us all, let’s hope scientists around the world work intensively on this new field of medicine that creates transmissible vaccines. These would allow you to “catch the vaccine” in the same way you catch Covid. 😃

(Thank you Science)


In view of Singhapour the most vaxed country
and their recent explosion of new cases
because their immune systemes are quasi destroyed
( like OK , when U know it better with yr spikes , . . we take a rest )
read this objective



The best performing country (230M people) is the worldwide best performing with ivermectin & artemisia )
the naked emporer will delete this - so make a copy

I think General Milley saved the planet AND YOU ALL
by de-activating the nucleair codes


( MAYBE THIS HOLD TWO HOURS, a kind of blog holocast )

Grades of Faith

Super Faith has one who hears the Sound all the time

Middle Faith if you have Loved and remember it often
(physical glance or inside)

Little faith when U heard about the former and sometimes feel attracted to it

Serendipities play their strong role intermediate
Serendipities are real physical events that are not possible to happen, still happen
mostly totally personal


Posted by: 777 | September 15, 2021 at 02:42 AM

@ 7
>>The best performing country (230M people) is the worldwide best performing with ivermectin & artemisia )https://www.bnr.nl/player/audio/10202158/10453719

I forgot to mention that 'country' of 230Million
Utter Pradesh
More convincing cannot be presented


@ 777
Just a thought .... due to living conditions in those countries, one can expect that their immune systems are under constant pressure from worms, parasites, bacteria etc, more than else where. An anti-parasite/ de-worming cure, might for that reason help, their immune system .... but ....that doesn't mean it is a cure for covid or an usable prophylactic medicine in countries where the pressure on the immune system is much lower, due to more hygienic lifestyle and exposure to worms and parasites etc etc.

It's just one state there practising , GOA also
In the other states following the Gov rules it's aweful

But there are so many suppressed reports confirming a 100% ( not 99%) profylactc success
I hope i m in time answering U



Why was the Spanish flue called the Spanish Flue?
Because they were neutral


@ 777
Maybe this is a more simple and natural approach:

I think so
F.I. in Oregon Cananis helps too
and like he said
so much more exist
but it s a little late to study all
specially when souble vaxed already




It was a long one but well done
Campbell might have read "Die to Live" from Maharaji Charan SinghJi

But Charan goes further , like
LOVE , . . Hypnotising Sound and U will be THAT
and Ofc
Do no harm

Thank U
I enjoyed
Dont need his tapes
I did the dying
Others here did too


@ 777

I hear what you say.
A dear friend that recently past away, had also "died" before his death.
Personally I never had an experience that deserves that name.
Being in my friends company for such a long time, I came to understand, that dying before death, doesn't solve the problem of death or life, it takes away the fear

@ 777

And ... whatever you and other "dead people being alive" write here and what was also spoken in a way by my dear friend, does not in any way resemble, the words, spoken and written, and the behavior, as expressed by the one that initiate all of you.


So Right

We can only apply what JapJi :

"Thus sais Nanak, the lowliest of the Lowly,
Sacrifice I am unto Thou, Oh Holy, "

kind of hypocrytical if we repeat that

We are Lucky we are not taken to our "words" to much by The Initiator

The dying is just secundary - The Love is What IS


Can I conclude U were associated with a satsangi
who proved the "dying" to U ?


If so, . . . enlighten Us

@ 777

There is nothing to say in this public forum these are very private things.

@ 777

Again ... it has always an surprise why people use the word ..LOVE ... so much having heard their teacher, what he had to say about love and the times he used the word.

Funny .....
Looking to some material on Youtube from Muraresku:

@ 777

My dear friend resembles in many ways Prof. Carl Ruck in that last video I posted hear.
It is not so much what he says but how he says it .. you should pay attention into the facial changes and the smile that comes and goes, the smile of a man that knows and cannot speak .... I hope that will help you to understand what you asked for about dying

These characters do not use the word ...LOVE

The secret to a lasting happiness is simple.

1. Own your fate.
2. Own your faith.

Hate begets hate. Attack and fear are two sides of the same coin.

It’s good to know when to walk away. “Know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, know when to walk away and know when to run” (classics)

There’s nothing wrong with running away from a toxic and destructive situation. You can’t be of help to anyone if you don’t help yourself first. And some people… well, just can’t help them. Actually, you can probably help them the most by leaving them on their own.

Well, I’ve been suffering from a long-term illness for quite some time now. It’s taken a huge toll on my body (and mind). I’ve lived in denial for the last year—as if positive thinking can actually cure a biological disease. Perhaps that works for some but apparently it wasn’t the elixir for me. But we’re here for a short time in the cosmic scheme off things. If you can overcome your fear of death while embracing the unknown then you’ve accomplished a lot. I hope that others continue to believe in the potential power innate in all of us. However, regardless of how powerful we are, our physical bodies will cease to exist one day. I hope the spirit truly lives on in a joyous state.


Hi Sonia - I'm sorry to hear about the illness. I wish you well :)

Hi Um - you write "Again ... it has always an surprise why people use the word ..LOVE ... so much having heard their teacher, what he had to say about love and the times he used the word."

Been reading the recent discussion around "love", "charitable" behaviour etc and their connection to Radhasoami teachings and specific gurus with interest as this has kind of been the essence of almost all my own online postings about RS for the past 5 or so years at least! From my perspective, the root cause of the confusion and seemingly conflicting interpretations of the RS teaching and practice between yourself and Spence is so very obvious, albeit fairly complex. It would be obvious to more people imo, if they were able to shed unexamined, preconceived notions & beliefs and actually critically examine these shaky foundations upon which all their "rationale" is based.

As I have mentioned before to you Um, I personally feel a major flaw or disconnect in your thinking process - and hence the reason why I believe what you say is fundamentally incorrect - is automatically associating family lineages of punjabi patriarchal religious leaders who are symbolic representations of genuine mystics with ACTUAL "mystics" and the "mystical path". I am making to you the suggestion this is a fundamentally flawed basis upon which to generalise about mystics, mysticism or the mystical experience. Fundamentally flawed, and will lead to great doubt and great error.

That said, you are of course right in describing to us the RS path and it's aims as taught by such religious patriarchs as Charan Singh - and rather delightfully - I literally am still unsure if it is somebody playing a satire on us, or if this genuinely does represent the "selfish" views of a real RSSB initiate - embodied here by Lalit and perhaps others (are these all Georgy Porgy wannabes? :). Yes, yes, RS is MOST DEFINITELY all about hyper-ego-centricity, the "pure" desire of the "individual soul", disconnected from all other "souls" and physical reality, "escaping" to a realm of eternal bliss and heaven, whilst losers like Mother Theresa and Gandhi, or indeed ANY mystic, guru, disciple, EVERYONE who didn't follow not only the very specific "selfish" path of "Sant Mat" (which didn't exist anywhere on the planet more than 300 years ago, btw), but also the VERY specific LINEAGE of family-patriarchs (being involved in billion dollar fraud and death threats is of course one of the hidden signs of very advanced masters in the kali yug, hence it was not listed in Sawan's PotM, we don't want millions of people with no real interest in spirituality following a real master do we? Wait, what.....) - all these other losers, which makes up about >99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of souls who've ever incarnated, are destined to go round in cycles of hell, whilst we blessed, elect, elite few look on from Sach Khand with Amrit Mojitos in hand. So disgusted are we with this world, and those losers who feel some sort of connection and responsibility to each other, to animals, to plants, to earth etc, that you are right, Charan did indeed remind us many times we are not to accidentally replace iron chains with gold chains by frivolously doing acts of charity and kindness! And, ahh, doesn't escape from it all sound so good? This IS, EXCLUSIVELY, a deeply life-denying, connection-denying, self-centred (call it soul, call it ego, it's all the same, disconnected individual concerned only about themselves, delusionally imagining it to be concern about some abstract "soul") neo-gnostic religious belief which is highly specific and local to the north Indian geo-culture from the period 1600-1900, with the Radhasoami religion being it's final, anachronistic crystalisation.

You are right, Um, all this is true.

The problem is, Um, this is not genuine mysticism and CERTAINLY not reflective of genuine mystical realisation - this is the the talk of pandits, scholars, religious leaders etc who repeat dogma and doctrine, ideas and concepts they have been taught, and their followers who mindlessly re-repeat it despite it being beyond obvious they have no evidence this religious belief is any more true than any other religious belief or claim. The imaginings and fantasies of ego-centric individuals who think they are the chosen elect.

If, however, we take a closer look at mystics like Jesus, Nanak or Buddha, we see clear and unambiguous prototypes of "social justice warriors". Many, many, respected mystics throughout history have been persecuted, abused, jailed, tortured or killed due NOT to their alleged advocation of 5 name simran and shabd yoga (which, let's be honest, nobody gave a shit about) BUT because of their challenge to the social hierarchy and oppression of their times.

Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan, or his final and most important teaching of "love one another", or Buddha's strict Sila code without which there cannot be any progress on his path, to the Mahayana buddhist vow to not attain "liberation" until all other sentient beings are free, or the innumerable tales of Nanak's egregious, disabling kindness and charity from a young age, to his status quo challenging and dangerous views on women in society, caste, the hypocrisy of priests etc, to Guru Arjan's insistence on providing free food to anybody who requires it at ALL places of worship etc etc. Charity, kindness, risking oneself by being vocal about social injustices and inequality etc seems to me, after having read many thousands of alleged mystic testimonies, a pretty universal characteristic of the genuine "mystical" or "spiritual" experiencer.

One of the many ironies I find in your argument is this insistence there is nothing in RS like protestant concept of "charity"; I actually understand your critical viewpoint of this organised, ideological "protestant" "love" and "compassion", and how it can lead to societal dangers (however, I think charity, protestant or otherwise, is still infinitely preferable to the neo-gnostic, anachronistic, life-denying, miserable fantasy of escaping iron and gold chains). But the grand irony is, RS does indeed have it's almost completely IDENTICAL concept of "seva"! Yes, "seva" is like the protestant concept of "charity"; ultimately, it is self-serving, selfish, no? :)

This is the problem with religions, they are attempting to imitate the mystic/al, they are faking it until they make it - but their followers mistakenly imagine they've achieved something just by magically recognising the one true guru and path in the multiverse with their astonishingly insightful, yet also incredibly humble, mind, and by playing "let's pretend I'm a humble sevadar", a game that is played by thousands every weekend. Genuine love and acts of kindness etc are the spontaneous actions of those who have had genuine spiritual or mystical experiences or realisations. Seva and charity are organised religious behaviours. At least some of the time it does actually benefit others outside of the chosen elect, even if often for publicity or tax purposes.....

Annnnyways, to come back to my point in writing this - I have been trying to communicate for years now something which I personally think is profound, inarguable and obvious; deeper mystical experiences and realisations transcend cultural and linguistic narratives, and RS mat is clearly, very, very clearly, a cultural and linguistic construct that has evolved through time and has no inherent reality beyond those cultural and linguistic parameters.

Whilst this (and it's implications for the whole RS belief) seems obvious to me, I suspect this is a highly complex "meta-idea" for most RS followers to understand, so I will attempt an illustration to parse out the layers; Guru Nanak and Kabir were born into a culture and language where certain ideas about reality and the "soul" were extremely influential to the degree they were actually unquestioned assumptions. Those unquestioned, universally accepted (in their geo-cultural context) assumptions about the mechanics of reality were god, individual soul, maya, karma, reincarnation. Against that backdrop - or perhaps conceptual matrix - did Nanak and Kabir fulfil their mystical obsessions and achieve, apparently, exalted states of spiritual or mystical ecstasy and insight. However, if one closely reads all the writings of Nanak and Kabir (or indeed, most other genuine mystics), one finds a clear and unambiguous TRANSCENDENCE of these dualistic concepts that they were BORN into. Nanak's Jap Ji Sahib is a pure non-dual text. I have posted several times a quote from Kabir where he says there is no karma, go guru, no shabd, no radiant form etc in his non-dual ecstasy, and that it is pandits and scholars who talk of these things. Think!

Fast forward several hundred years, and we have westerners and modern Indians who are born into an entirely different culture and belief set who mistakenly believe they have to accept the cultural and linguistic context of these medieval Indian mystics to be able to realise the same mystical experience or insight as them; this is utterly absurd! The whole notion of karma, sach khand as a region to escape to, iron chains and gold chains etc has absolutely nothing to do with the mystical realisation of Nanak or Kabir - let alone the obscenity of trying to associate those cultural beliefs as some kind of universal trait of mystics everywhere from Christian, Sufi to Shamans in Tibet or America, or NDE experiencers or psychedelic experiencers etc. RS followers may be surprised to learn there is such a thing as a truly universal mystical experience, and that it isn't constrained by the culture and language of punjab circa 1550-1900!

When Richard Rolle experiences and describes an intense relationship with a divine inner shabd and inner heat, he doesn't frame it within the escapist ideology and concepts of RS, of karma or reincarnation, of living human gurus etc. He experiences and translates it through the language and cultural context of Jesus Christ. There are some, I note, who try to associate the beautiful, ecstatic outpourings of love from Rumi with the deadening, out of time and out of place, life-denying, selfish aims of RS dogma! This is obscene and dishonest! There is absolutely no connection on any level whatsoever between the beliefs, mindset, and egalitarian, non-judgemental love-ecstasy of Rumi and the fear-based escapism of karmically-centred RS mat, and it is pure delusion to suggest otherwise!

The ecstasy of inner sound and light (which, imo, is not the "highest" state") is not exclusive to those who deny life. In fact, I suggest those who truly have merged with this ecstasy to some notable degree TRANSCEND such small minded, selfish concerns and narratives, like Kabir and Nanak did. Today, we - at the behest of pandits and religious leaders with no real personal experience of any depth - take that which they transcended and hold it aloft as their final realisation - this is literally to destroy the wheat and keep the chaff!; we need to apply greater thought, greater resolution, to the mindscape of these mystics, if we are to truly understand them.

The real mystic surely realises - and experiences - the connection and oneness of all things; that is "sach khand". There is no escape. There is nowhere to escape to. Love - and spontaneous acts of kindness and charity - are the natural aroma or consequence of such a realisation, like when a child realises touching a hot stove with their hand is "ouch", so directly the real mystic is aware of the connection to all sentient beings, and all sentient beings are our collective "hands", and if anyone says "ouch", we ALL hurt. Anyone who talks of a "real home" that is detached from reality as it is, here and now, has no "real home", they will always be trying to escape.

I understand the demi-urgic influence, very well. I understand why some people say this world is "maya" or under the control of kal, "the Prince of this world". We see it every day - we live in a world of lies and manipulation, of anger, division, fear and hate. Of wars, poverty, disease, ever increasing natural disasters, of orphaned, dismembered children that nobody even knows about, let alone cared about or remembered. The hacks, or pretenders, are at the top of the pile whereas the real artists go poor and unrecognised. Religions claim to be spiritual/mystical, and family lineages of those seeking generational power, prestige and wealth call themselves "mystics". Despite never being so connected as we are now, never have we felt more disconnected from each other and alone. Etc etc etc.

Yes, yes, kal.

But what is lost on those who have had this partial, incomplete "realisation" (or, in the vast majority of cases, simply miserable intellectual belief) is that this is merely one layer of reality, and by no means some final or complete perception of what reality - even just here on physical earth - is. There is another, deeper perception of reality as a divine play of immense and inexpressible beauty and joy, where love and compassion is like a basic universal force whereby all this is kept in motion. THAT is "Sach Khand", or "God". In this realisation, "kal" is merely seen as one particular layer or ingredient - a necessary one - in the formation of reality, but by no means the ultimate descriptor of reality, here and now.

So, there are those who are perhaps not so familiar with these deeper mystical experiences and realisations, who perhaps as patriarchal leaders of religions, parrot the dogma and doctrine of their faith without much thought. We should not conflate these with actual, ecstatic mystics, who's experiences transcend such petty, cultural-linguistic constructs as the life and compassion-denying dogma of RS.

If there is one reliable, universal sign of the deeper mystical experience, it is love (imo, Bernadette Rodgers would possibly disagree, but then I would disagree with her :). Where love - and it's natural aroma of kindness, charity etc - is absent, you can be sure you're dealing with either a cult, occult practice or religion.

Imo of course :)

@ Manjit

It is to much for me to digest.
The time you invested in writing this messages deserves an proper answer but I can't.

Maybe time has come to walk away from these conversations, i cannot interact with You, Spence, AR and others, in the manner that does right to the level of understand, experience etc you people work from

A lot of gibberish. Icing on the cake being Santmat existing just 300 years. Just goes to show how shallow one's understanding is of Santmat/mysticism and similarities to the core teachings of all religions going back to Zoroaster.

@ Manjit

>>As I have mentioned before to you Um, I personally feel a major flaw or disconnect in your thinking process - and hence the reason why I believe what you say is fundamentally incorrect - is automatically associating family lineages of punjabi patriarchal religious leaders who are symbolic representations of genuine mystics with ACTUAL "mystics" and the "mystical path". I am making to you the suggestion this is a fundamentally flawed basis upon which to generalise about mystics, mysticism or the mystical experience. Fundamentally flawed, and will lead to great doubt and great error.<<

Manjit ... let me put before you again the comparison I have often used here:

If I go out to a restaurant, the only thing that matters to me is, whether the food is tasty to me, whether I can stand the staff, the atmosphere etc.

I do not discuss the level of these things with anybody, what it means to me, my personal experience is what matters.

What I hold of this or that restaurant, its staff, cheffs, owners and other guest, can not and should not be an judgement.

The same hold s for the spiritual schools as they present themselves into this world. If I feel not emotional and/or intelectual attracted to a teacher and his teachings, I just leave it by side ... but that ... tells only something about me ...me .. my tastes.

I do not go into restaurants to sit in judgement .. that is the job of those who write books, colums etc

If some one things i have a bad taste .. and what I love to eat does not deserve other label than junkfood .. so be it ... it is their problem not mine.

Nobody needs to go to the restaurants I love to frequent., nor am i interested in where they go

I had a great time when I was associated with the teachers in Beas for 2 decades, I came to meet many good people and my best friend that past away, recently, ... it makes me thankfull and brings a smile in my face.


And to go on with the comparisson ...

If some one goes on to say that a certain sweet is on the menu in a given restaurant that I frequent or frequented and even goes that far as to suggest that that is dish for which that particular restaurant is known ... and ... that is not correct as the whole sweet is not even to be found on the menu

Then .... i will tell that person that he is telling something that is not correct.

It has nothing to do, with that restaurant, the sweet or whatever ... it is just about a person for reasons unkown makes things up that do not exist

That Manjit is my simple reality

manjit, as ever, pleasure to read your well informed and well reasoned post.

um, I for one have been enjoying reading your discussion with Spence. Please don't feel yourself in any way ...inadequate, in discussing things here. manjit and Spence do speak of deep mystical realizations, but if someone like me, who's entirely innocent of anything experientially mystical (at least to the best of my knowledge, and beyond the occasional and mundane but nevertheless deeply satisfying cessation, or near-cessation, of mental chatter) can ramble on here, then so can you! :---))

Like I'd said, briefly, in that other thread, this discussion is best broken up into three parts, into three distinct questions:

(1) The first question would be: Does RSSB hold that charity and love for one's fellow man is a necessary, or even a helpful, part of the spiritual path (as prescribed by RSSB)?

This is a focused question, and can be answered unambiguously by presenting evidence from the words of present and past RSSB masters.

The answer has to be one of these four options:
(a) Yes, it does.
(b) No, it doesn't. (That is, either it explicitly says it is irrelevant, or else simply keeps stum on that point.)
(c) The answer depends on context, on specifics, and differs from case to case.
(d) RSSB is all over the place on this, and clearly doesn't know what it is talking about, in that it keeps contradicting itself.

(2) The second question would be, what do mystical traditions in general (not just RSSB) have to say about this?

This question, too, can be answered clearly and unambiguously by presenting evidence in the form of words of present and past mystics who are considered authoritative in/by their traditions/followers.

(3) The third question would be, not limited to what specific traditions say, but what, in general, would be the answer to this question: Does charity and love for one's fellow man have anything to do with mysticism?


manjit, from your post I gather that you answer "No" to the first question; "Yes" to the second question (your examples of Nanak and Kabir); and "Yes" to the third question as well.


Actually, manjit, I loved this part of what you'd said, "If there is one reliable, universal sign of the deeper mystical experience, it is love ... Where love - and it's natural aroma of kindness, charity etc - is absent, you can be sure you're dealing with either a cult, occult practice or religion."

Basis my limited experience, I'd agree. True, unselfish (if I may use that word) mediation, absorption, these things do lead to a 'softening' of one's ego, and do result in what seems like a strengthening of empathy. Empathy not just for other men (and women), but indeed for all life. At least in my very limited experience.


I remain interested in this question. To all three questions.

As far as the third question, there is this though:

While some kind of mystical realization --- however defined --- is probably associated with greater empathy, but does the reverse hold true? That is, does "fake it until you make it" actually make for a reasonable strategy, or is that part all bullshit?


"A lot of gibberish. Icing on the cake being Santmat existing just 300 years. Just goes to show how shallow one's understanding is of Santmat/mysticism and similarities to the core teachings of all religions going back to Zoroaster."

Posted by: GSD_Rocks_despite_the_likes_of_manjits | September 27, 2021 at 08:51 AM

Hardly gibberish, and hardly Zarathustra, but in this much I agree with what you say, basis my very limited reading of RSSB literature, that RSSB does claim that the path it teaches goes back to Kabir. Maybe even back to much earlier times, but I'm fuzzy on this. But certainly up to Kabir. So greater than 300 years, at any rate, and going by what they themselves claim.

Hardly gibberish, and hardly Zarathustra, but in this much I agree with what you say, basis my very limited reading of RSSB literature, that RSSB does claim that the path it teaches goes back to Kabir. Maybe even back to much earlier times, but I'm fuzzy on this. But certainly up to Kabir. So greater than 300 years, at any rate, and going by what they themselves claim.

Posted by: Appreciative Reader | September 27, 2021 at 09:54 AM

Songs of Devotion - The Gathas of Zarathustra. Published by Radhasoami Satsang Beas

Now don't get back saying it's some distorted interpretation of Zoroastrianism to suit Santmat Philosophy. A well researched publication even run past Parsi scholars in India.

A Zaratosht

Hi Um - you wrote "The time you invested in writing this messages deserves an proper answer but I can't."

Thank you, but it's not a problem! Surely we write for our own pleasure as much as anything else? - I'd be lying if I say I was expecting a discussion :)

To be clear, in your discussion with Spence, I actually find your view to be more accurate and coherent. However, I find the spirit of Spence's view, however incoherent and confused it may be, to be more valuable and worthwhile on a human level!

I appreciate and agree with the essence of what Spence is trying to communicate, but I feel there is a deep confusion born of a kind of wishy-washy, wishful sentimentality when he projects his own (imo) innate goodness and decency upon the dogma and doctrine of RS theology, and person of the RSSB religious leader.

It kind of reminds me of Dungeness's frequent claim that RS gurus present us with a path, and sincerely ask us if we know of anything better or faster ("better" or "faster" in what narrative context? Clearly RS meditation isn't "better" or "faster" for anybody satisfied with their life already, it would merely be an encumbrance?) that we should try it and also let them know and they may also accept it......when in reality
Gurinder is telling sobbing people who feel they've been completely unsuccessful with decades of daily meditation to shut up, keep meditating and stop complaining. A carrot and stick situation.......but with all stick, all the time. I think again Dungeness's no doubt evident innate goodness is being projected upon a situation where there is no connection at all with the actual reality.

In the 21st century it becomes clearer and clearer the - as you entirely correctly suggest - life-denying, connection-despising, medieval Indian neo-gnostic doctrine of karma, reincarnation and "sach khand" as being detached from the rest of sentient life, and the hyper-ego-centric desire of personal liberation into some kind of eternal ecstasy with no regard for any other soul etc is out of touch and out of date with modern sensibilities, modern common sense, just pure old simple being a decent human being in modern times. The INNATE decency of just being human. And when our "Godmen" and "spirituality" falls below even the morals and ethics of just being a basically decent human being in our own time, we have a problem whether it is vocalised or not. So you will hear endless - imo - vacuous, wishy-washy, wishful, naive sentimentality projecting all these modern people's innate goodness upon a dogma and doctrine that is in itself completely void of such goodness! That's religion for you.

All talk of being a decent human being as a basic part of RS teachings is completely besides the point - this is not love, or the mystical sense of connection. As is evident by almost every single RS poster online ever, Sach Khand is conceived of in RS as separate from the suffering of this world and a place of eternal, personal, bliss. Good works, seva, meditation etc are all basically transactions we make to purchase eternal bliss. Vegetarianism is far more a concern to do with purity and "karma" than genuine love and compassion, as is evidenced by the many comments by RS followers when veganism was discussed here. This is all transactional mentality, religious mentality, nothing genuine, nothing authentic. Love and compassion has very little to do with it. It is beyond a joke to suggest otherwise; real love is when you lose all care or concern for the self, and all you are is concerned for everyone else - that is love. No question of seeking "liberation", or escaping to "Sach Khand" - no room for fear of karma and reincarnation - who cares! THIS is the mystical experience. To say RS increases love and compassion for others, whilst we plot our escape to Sach Khand, is absurd and incoherent. Not even a mother is concerned for her own welfare and condition when it comes to her child, and will lie in her own child's urine rather than let the child do so. What are we to say about the state of the mystic? Is he or she desiring of Sach Khand, or afraid of karma and reincarnation? Honestly, these are questions and arguments for those who are unfamiliar with the mystical. Ask Rumi ;)

But, when good people like Spence and Dungeness follow these kind of religions, they project their own innate goodness and authenticity upon them, and read love and compassion even where it is not really written - even if the result is confused and confusing for onlookers :)

So, Um, I happen to agree with the "by the letter of the law" interpretation of RS, and find the attempts to crowbar into the RS dogma love and compassion to be somewhat confused at it's core.

My only 2 disagreements with your posts are 1) your suggestion there is no element of protestant "charity" in RSSB, when in fact the concept or notion of "seva" is perhaps an even more extreme example of dangers of religiously motivated, organised "charity" than even in the Church, and more importantly 2) that your implicit suggestion that the RSSB religion and family patriarch of Charan Singh represent the experiences, beliefs and behaviours of most or even all previous "mystics"; I am merely pointing out this is demonstrably untrue, and I personally consider it a disservice to the genuine spirit of most mystics throughout history and across the globe to suggest iron and gold chains is some kind of perennial mystical truth, when it in fact simply isn't (it is a partial truth, at best). Even people who are deeply devoted to Charan on this forum are attempting to correct you this - not because you are incorrect about Charan, but because they are confused about their own innate goodness.......they know what is right, what is "good".....on a universal level beyond even their association with this religion........so they project that upon Charan.

But it is simpler than all this - just read Rumi, then see if your generalisations about "all mystics" and "love" is true, or if it is merely a story about your own association with a specific religion and their specific interpretation?

In regards your oft-resorted to comparison of restaurants and menus, I feel your are misguided in your metaphors, or at least a little twisted :) We are not in a restaurant - we are writing in letters to a food critic magazine!! Some of us readers and letter writers may never have seen a restaurant - whilst others may own one! But this is all irrelevant to the words on a screen on this blog. So, I can surely appreciate you had such a wonderful time with RSSB and Charan - like I have written innumerable times, my years following Gurinder and doing seva were some of the most blessed and beautiful moments of my life. But, despite your 2 posts about it, this has absolutely nothing at all to do with what I write on any level.

I couldn't care less what meal anyone likes and at which restaurant or street vendor or trash bin they get it from - couldn't care in the slightest, not even paying attention to that. However, writing here on this restaurant food critic forum, I am merely making it known that a big mac and fries is not 5 star michelin chef made meal, and that a piece of mouldy bread found in a dumpster is not the same as fine cuisine.

I am not insisting one go here or there, I simply don't care for individual preferences, I am simply making it known that a big mac and fries is not a 5 star michelin chef made meal, in case some people - cough, cough - weren't aware of it.......


@ Manjit

I have never had any Issue with the teachers, the teachings of Beas.
I could not.
I was trained by my father to hear upon him when he had something to say.
Nothing more nothing less
I was not and never asked to agree.
How I digested what he had to say was of my own.
His words were just things he had put on the table.
He would not force me to eat let alone to enjoy it.

In that spirit I deal with whatever crosses my mind in this world.

It is up to me how I digest Sant Mat, and my digestion is the only thing that maters for me.

And I will repeat it again .. I have nothing to say about these teachers and teachings as it is not needed to make up my mind. and I never did.

The issue of truth about these teachers and teachings are not things for me to waste my time.

""A lot of gibberish. Icing on the cake being Santmat existing just 300 years. Just goes to show how shallow one's understanding is of Santmat/mysticism and similarities to the core teachings of all religions going back to Zoroaster."

Posted by: GSD_Rocks_despite_the_likes_of_manjits | September 27, 2021 at 08:51 AM

Appreciative Reader replied: Hardly gibberish, and hardly Zarathustra, but in this much I agree with what you say, basis my very limited reading of RSSB literature, that RSSB does claim that the path it teaches goes back to Kabir. Maybe even back to much earlier times, but I'm fuzzy on this. But certainly up to Kabir. So greater than 300 years, at any rate, and going by what they themselves claim."

Oh this is so cute :)

To my mind, the writings of Alice Bailey are "Theosophy" - but dare say that to a Helena Blavatsky devotee who has painstakingly read every word of Blavatsky's multiple times, and all the works of Bailey too - they will sit you down and explain the finer points of radical divergence in teachings, and hence inaccuracy of labelling Bailey's concepts as identical or even supportive of Blavatsky's concepts, for many hours! What I am saying is, my own superficial understanding or awareness of Blavatsky and Bailey blinds me to the more detailed, nuanced, high-resolution understanding of these concepts and their relationship to each other, and hence the radical differences in them.

I really don't know what to say - having read all the RSSB publications up until 2000 or so at least 2 or 3 times, and read more or less every word ascribed to both Nanak and Kabir (even words misattributed to them, like Anurag Sagar, which is almost religiously considered within RS to be written by Kabir, but this is almost certainly incorrect as is evidenced by the radical change in content and style to his more or less "confirmed" works, and late appearance many years if not centuries after his death, as I believe is also confirmed by scholars and historians today), and far more importantly the culture and philosophical context within which their lives occurred, as well as speaking the language of these traditions since birth, it is to me beyond obvious "Santmat" didn't exist more than 300 years ago.

I have written before that I believe the term "Santmat" itself is a verbal sleight of hand that creates the illusion of continuity and connection to a set of past "mystics" that the culture and tradition within which RS evolved highly respected and revered, like Guru Nanak and Kabir. This can often outrageously extend to even those with RADICALLY different beliefs and practices, such as the Islamic sufi Rumi, or Mira Bai etc, if they are revered enough in the culture. They can surely be crow-barred into the dogma - the whirling dervish once sang a poem about heavenly music? Excellent, a "Sant mat" guru then, who surely also taught about karma, the world is hell and suffering, karma and reincarnation etc from which we must escape with specifically the 5 shabd.....basically a Hindu mystic from 17th century Indian specifically, but forced to pretend he was a Muslim. Yeah, sure. Perhaps actually read some Rumi :)

So, before claiming "Santmat" existed more than 300 years ago, please show one instance of the use of this term from before that date. Despite both "Sant" and "mat" being extremely popular terms in the punjabi language, these are not linked together to my knowledge anywhere outside or prior to around the 1700s.....and the use arises specifically amongst those groups that are the direct forerunners to the Radhasoamsi tradition (we're talking of the Dariya, Tulsi Sahibs etc). Today, anyone and everyone who uses this term is exclusively exposed to it from Radhasoami related groups, as the term AND what it specifically refers to did not exist historically (pre 1700s ish) or outside of the Radhasoami context to this very day, ie it is entirely synonymous with the term "Radhasoami mat", but creates the illusion of historical connection. If there is any instance of any of the gurus in the Granth Sahib using this term, I am not aware of it. Probably because "Santmat" either as a neologism or even practice probably didn't exist, and even if it did Nanak and Kabir CERTAINLY didn't practice it! That is more or less just an obvious fact, in socio-historic context.

Significant differences between the concepts and life of Kabir, Nanak and several other alleged "Sant mat" mystics from the Guru Granth Sahib, with the Radhasoami mat of today (and these are simply factual statements, interpret or misinterpret them as you will :):

1) RS mat says practicing breath control was an effective practice from previous yugas (so many millions of years or some such previously, certainly not 500 years ago), but that it is no longer effective. Those that practice and teach breath control, chakras, nadis or kundalini etc as causal means to absorption into inner sound are "lower level yoga teachers" who are essentially of a "negative power" or kal. They suggest that the "secret" (which, if you think about it, is quite funny :) method of RS is to perform simran of 5 names whilst focussed at the ajna chakra. On the contrary, it is spectacularly obvious the mystics of the Granth Sahib practiced breath control as in integral part of their shabd yoga, and held it in high esteem:


Ipso facto, both Kabir, Nanak and many other mystics from the Granth Sahib are, by RS's very own teachings and definitions, lower level gurus of "kal".

In other words, bare jokes all round ;)

2) In RS we are taught of 5 realms or regions with their 5 rulers. In the RS cosmology we are taught the ruler of the first region, and hence an agent if you will of "Kal", or the demi-urge, is Niranjan, and the second region, hence a slightly more powerful agent of Kal (:o), is called by "Onkar".

Due to the general ignorance of westerners, and lack of deeper awareness of those born into this religion in India along with perhaps an inability to question their own beliefs, may not be aware that Nanak and other gurus of the Granth Sahib consider Niranjan and Onkar to the the most supreme, immaculate lord, the highest God etc. I will spare posting any of the many dozens if not hundreds of quotes from the Granth Sahib showing this, I think I have done this and anyone can search the Granth online in seconds.

Ipso facto, both Kabir, Nanak and many other mystics from the Granth Sahib are, by RS's very own teachings and definitions, lower level gurus of "kal".

In other words, bare jokes all round ;)

3) We do not know of any physical, human guru of Nanak's - it seems quite unlikely there was one. Stories around Kabir's possible guru leave us with the distinct impression he wasn't a very great human being, let alone Godman. There are stories in the Granth Sahib of people achieving "God" by worshipping stones (Dhanna Bhagat) etc. All of this is in direct conflict with the view of the authority by (usually family) lineage in the RS tradition, and that anybody and everybody outside of this direct chain of spiritual transmission cannot be a genuine satguru, achieve "God" or "Sach khand" and is either/both delusional and/or under the sway of kal.

Ipso facto, both Kabir, Nanak and many other mystics from the Granth Sahib are, by RS's very own teachings and definitions, lower level gurus of "kal".

In other words, bare jokes all round ;)

Now, I can't stand around here joking all day. Some of us have things to do. Not me, but you get the point ;)

Interesting POV, manjit.

It is clear to me, even basis my limited reading of RSSB, that they do claim that their tradition goes back to Kabir. Maybe even longer back, but like I said I'm fuzzy on that. This other poster, who posts with different avatars, says here that RSSB's claim extends right back to Zoroaster; and, pending any corrections from others on this, I'll take him at his word.

You don't contest that, that is, you don't contest that RSSB claim that they go back to Kabir and maybe beyond; but you've laid out a fairly detailed argument that their claim itself is false. Again, much as I took that other poster at face value, seeing no reason to doubt him, I'll do the same with what you say. What you say seems to make sense; and it is frankly beyond me to critique your argument, at least not without reading up a great deal, and I see no reason not to accept what you're saying at face value (at least pending any correction by others to what you say say).


Any thoughts on my earlier post?

Specifically, this: While I agree with you that mysticism---however defined---is probably associated with greater empathy and compassion and "love", but what I was wondering is if the reverse might hold.

To spell it out: Any thoughts on whether "fake it until you make it" might work in this context; that is, might going in for the empathy and compassion thing, while not actually having arrived at it organically via bona fide mysticism---either strategically or simply basis one's innate nature---might that play any role at all in facilitating mystical absorption?

@ AR

As far as I understand, mystics, after having their inner experience, are convinced that what holds for them, holds for everybody, it is universal.

That said every mystic, sjaman etc can only share his vision in the language that he speaks ... the medicine man of an indigenous tribe visiting Europe, can only relate to his tribes people on comming home, in their language, a language with concepts related to their history and environment.

In the testaments, the apostles have Christ say something to the extent that he had to come in a human body and to speak their language to tell them that the kingdom of heaven is inside them and they are all gods. He also stressed that he would not change their ideas as laid down in the old testament,


Well for the simple reason that they would otherwise not listen.

Let me exaggerate what i mean ... any mystic, will tell all sorts of stories, probably even lies if it helps to see that the people have their "shields lowered and down" to use starfleed lingo.... hahaha.

So if one talks to Christians and what you say goes against their believe system, they will defend themselves mentally and stop listening and begin arguing etc.

So what ever they say must be plausible to the listener and need not represent the experience at all.

It is all a matter of psychology, used to calm the mind. so that they can accept the invitation to see for themselves by practice.

All mystics speak about the role of the world, the role of the senses, the mind and how it affects the attention..... if you have listened to what Richard Baker Roshi had to say, you might have grasped that meditation is an attention shift, opening up to a broader spectrum that what is available by the senses.

You see any protestant, presented with what I write will tell me that this is not what Christ meant and that I am using their teaching for my own interpretation. He will tell me that Christ is a savior and died for ower sins. If I like him and he or she is strong enough I will say, that is your protestant interpretation, an interpretation that is nowhere to be found in the gospels. In those Gospels Christ nowhere says that he was alive to be killed for their sins. What he did say was, that he had come to show the kingdom in heaven. Why was he killed, for the very simple reason he was a thread for the religious and worldly establishment, that could only imagine an kingdom on earth. He accepted death as payment for the truth.

Mystics all over the place are faced with the same problems ... follow a course in psychology and you will understand, what it is all about.

How can one make the mind accept the possibility of another "reality" second attention Castaneda would call it .. haha

It is all rational ... how to calm down the mind ...patanjali called THAT yoga

Hi AR, thanks for your comments! You write: ".....[in] my limited reading of RSSB, that they do claim that their tradition goes back to......."

Well, Paul Twitchell the infamous western RS off-shoot founder of Eckankar claimed his teachings went back to the secret masters Rebezar Tarz and Fubbi Qantz, Yogananda and Kriya yoga claim their teachings and lineage go back to multi-hundred year old Babas hiding in the himalayas for centuries, Blavatsky claimed her teachings and lineage goes to back to centuries old Secret White Brotherhood of hidden masters in the himalayas with very eastern sounding names like Koot Hoomi and Morya, Islam claims their teachings go back to the Angel Gabriel, no less, whilst Christians and Jews claim their cosmology and world history goes back to the beginning of time - some 3 or 4000 years ago, with Adam and Eve, and L Ron Hubbard mentioned something about Xenu. Now it's been a long while since I read about the whole whack-doodle of a cosmology known as scientology so I can't remember if Xenu was a good guy or evil dude, but still, you know, Xenu. If you add to that my claim that I was born from an egg on a mountain top, that monkey is funky, and that my teachings go back to a luminescent pink unicorn who imparted it's wisdom to me on said mountain top back when mountains didn't even exist (?) whilst every RS guru past, present and future was also present, well, then we're left with quite a few "claims", aren't we? Contrary-wise, I hope I have shared some searchable consensual facts about RS and it's connection to Nanak and Kabir which bring great doubt and great confusion for some of those claims, if they are indeed true.

I have not read the apparently new RSSB publication relating to Zoroastrianism, nor do I intend to. I am not unfamiliar with either of these religions. It should be obvious that although I am saying the RS or "Santmat" teachings didn't exist more than 300 years ago, that I am in no way suggesting they arose either in a conceptual, cultural, philosophical or linguistic vacuum, or that they were revealed by alien life forms. Ie., this implies that if RS/Sant mat teachings started to crystalise some 300 or less years ago, that they were potentially heavily influenced by gnostic, vedic, tantric, Islamic, Christian, Buddhist, Greek, Egyptian, Hermetic etc etc etc beliefs and practices. I am in no way suggesting there is not elements of many or all of these influences in RS mat. I am saying, however, that the very specific cosmology, beliefs, practices and claims of RS/Santmat as they were fully crystalised in the teachings of Soamiji circa 1900, certainly did not exist anywhere in the world prior to around 300 years ago.

I have already over many years provided quite a lot of references, even if often in the general rather than specific, for the clear and unambiguous evolution of shabd yoga on the Indian subcontinent from the tantric meting pot of Kashmir and Uddiyana, from Kashmiri Shaivism (where the first real clear and detailed yogic thought and practice of associating inner sound with the cosmic vibration can be found), via the cosmologically and philosophically ungrounded yogic practice of Goraknatha yogis, via the bhakti sants (such as Kabir and Nanak, and later to be mislabelled with the neologism "Santmat gurus"), to the tradition via Dariya Sahib, Tulsi Sahib and others I now forget we now call "Radhasoami", and this is just the most obvious and inarguable influences, we cannot calculate how much gnostic or egyptian beliefs, for example, influenced it. At no point in any of these changes in tradition, era etc, was there any kind of consistency to the cosmological "claims" of each of these centuries long lasting traditions. Ironically, I personally consider the first and oldest known iteration of this practice of inner sound yoga on the Indian subcontinent, Kashmiri Shaivism, to be the most beautiful, sophisticated, life-affirming, non-dual and practically useful of any of these schools of conceptual and cosmological thought. It also has a shit-load more of practical yogic techniques, not only for listening to inner sounds, but a whole host of other techniques if one has no success with that method.

It goes without question that RS has and will continue to publish innumerable books showing the connection between inner sound and past mystics and religions. The problem is, and I do mean this quite literally, it is exactly the same if you consider the core secret of mysticism to be inner heat or kundalini, or the breath, or inner light, or non-duality/Self/No-self, or love and compassion, or seva or service, or prayer, or psychedelics etc etc..........once you focus in on any one particular aspect, you will find all of "mystic" history riddled with it. Such are the many faces of the "Divine".

But that doesn't mean that a particular religious interpretation of a universal human potential is any way proprietary, which of course is what RS dogma claims it to be, and very exclusively so! (I mean, who cares about Zoroaster or Ahura Mazda or whomever the good Gods are, just because someone somewhere mentioned something about inner sound during a visionary state - I mean, which DMT trip doesn't begin with inner sound? - that doesn't say anything at all about karma, transmigration, 5 regions, kal for eg., LET ALONE which of the thousand and one RS gurus is the true guru today!! These gurus absolutely do not grant each other equal status, and highly respected RS gurus of the past have labelled the highly respected family members and chosen successors of their own guru "mayaic insects", and have been involved legal proceedings to do with defamation or some such, etc. The history of RS succession is riddled with such power-grabbing, and indeed cannot even be separated from such worldly ambitions and politics. Go on, I dare you to try :)

So there is no real honesty in the selective quote harvesting that is employed by RS publishers and followers, it is more "just so" story telling. As I mentioned many times, even Rumi is quoted often in RS publications and magazines. Wow. It is beyond impossible to honestly believe - if one is familiar with his writings - that what he is teaching bares any resemblance to the life-denying, individual soul liberation seeking, of the neo-hindu religious teachings of Radhasoami mat. Yet, it is done, and done often. So much for "claims", and low-resolution integrity about the teachings, practices and beliefs of these past mystics and groups. Even a single line out of a million lines will be pounced upon, to the exclusion of all else, to make a point of religious belief.

You asked: "Any thoughts on my earlier post?

Specifically, this: While I agree with you that mysticism---however defined---is probably associated with greater empathy and compassion and "love", but what I was wondering is if the reverse might hold.

To spell it out: Any thoughts on whether "fake it until you make it" might work in this context; that is, might going in for the empathy and compassion thing, while not actually having arrived at it organically via bona fide mysticism---either strategically or simply basis one's innate nature---might that play any role at all in facilitating mystical absorption?"

I feel this is the problem with words, I am clearly not getting across the essence of what I'm trying to communicate. You ask if something "might work" - but what does "work" even mean? You ask if something may facilitate mystical absorption, you know, "by going in for the empathy and compassion thing".

I in no way intend to suggest there is anything to "work" towards, and if anything I suggest our orientation should be thinking and asking if "going in for the" "mystical absorption" "thing" "may facilitate" "empathy and compassion", not vice versa. If I talk about "genuine mystical experience or insight", I do not mean in the hierarchical sense mystical experience is graded in RS, for eg., but the constraints of language and human mentality make it sound so. Stealing Um's metaphor, if the "mystical" can be equated with the nutrition with which we survive, then my claims about "genuine mystical experiences" are akin to claims about the sophistication of a particular cuisine - but not actually at all about the nutritional, essential, element. We're really just playing let's pretend, here, imo.

In truth, in MY "truth" to be precise, there is no experience or belief of anyone, ever, that isn't a most beautiful and perfect expression of the "mystical" or "divine", be they "faking it" or "genuine", criminal or Sant Satguru, atheist or believer. We are all merely different threads in the grand tapestry of reality. Anything I ever say, at the very most it can only be like one thread saying to another thread "purple, did you know?!". Ultimately, there is nothing you or I can do, no yoga we can practice, no "mystical absorption" we can experience, no guru or religion we can follow which will alter or effect that grand tapestry, your very existence and experience itself woven into that tapestry, and that is all. You are not adding or taking anything away from the canvas, and the canvas neither asks or requires anything from you. You don't like these ambiguous metaphors, but alas they are the only means to even attempt to communicate the ineffable!

So all talk of "genuine mystics" and "genuine mystical experiences" is ultimately a crock of shit that is sold by those who have spent inordinate amounts of time studying, practicing and experiencing a variety of consciousness altering technologies, and have developed a language of their own to differentiate that, which like the snow for which Eskimos or innuits have many dozens of different words, doesn't really need to be differentiated so much by the average person ;o)

Ultimately, ALL is "mystical" or "divine", and quite literally that is all. The rest is to do with the restlessness of the human mind. And there is literally no end to the infinite dualistic stories or concepts the mind can conjur up.

If you don't believe me, just ask Rebezar Tarz or Koot Hoomi. They know their shit.

So fake it till you make it, or don't. It's all good. Do whatever makes you feel good and happy, follow your bliss. That is all. If somebody is trying to sell you something else, examine the goods, and the seller, carefully.

If you wish to consider "faking it till you make it" to make "mystical absorption" "work", then perhaps RS and Gurinder is indeed the right path for you. There are decades old satsangis who frequently get up and ask Gugu to tell them how many sach khand points they get for doing x amount of seva; I'm not sure if his answers have ever satisfied anyone, but at least you'll be in good company :)

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