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July 29, 2021


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Posted by: emoji Tao Te Ching | September 01, 2021 at 08:27 AM


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Nice video

I don’t believe anyone can take on another person’s karma. The thing is (and this is really, really, really hard for most people to wrap their head around) I don’t believe in karma. I believe in cause and effect, but calculating everything and karma, no.

BTW, found a new TV series that my family is enjoying. It’s on apple TV. I think you can also watch it on IMDb.

It’s funny and kind of silly but has some good lessons in it.

Ted Lasso: https://youtu.be/3u7EIiohs6U

Spoiler alert:


To All,…….I posted the following on Facebook this morning, where none of you have communicated with me in the past. But some of you here have crossed a paths with me, so hope to see you in the bleachers on my Judgement Day?

Today, is Sept. 11, 2021. While listening on my portable radio, during my morning walk, to a Commentator at the New York Memorial site interviewing various survivors of the attack on the Twin Towers share their memories, of where they were when they Airplanes flew in to the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. Conspiracy Theories will continue , of Who did it, and why, for hundreds of years to come, I suspect. But my memory was where I happened to be, at the time. I was at work in So. California , watching it all unfold , while looking at a little portable TV in my bosse’s office. Little did I know what God had in store for me, the next 20 years, up to today! Like many other Americans that historical day, I wasn’t looking forward to the next week, let alone the next 20 years! But I am still here, 20 years later, unknowing how much longer I might survive in this old body, known as Jim. If The Good Lord doesn’t protect me from Covid and the devil,…….well I’ll hopefully meet you on the other side along with every other person who has crossed my Path and made some type of contact with me durning my almost 80 years since the Soul now occupying Jim arrived on the planet again. In Meditation this morning, I imagined dying , and my Soul arriving to what the Bible calls “The Judgement Seat of God.” I imagined that, that Judgement Seat might be much different than most Folks imagine. Instead of old bearded Souls sitting on golden thrones wearing White Robes , I imagined sitting on the ground cross legged in my Meditation position in the center of a Foot Ball field, with the bleachers all around me, packed with every human and animal that I had ever had contact with, as far as my eyes could see, who each had a Vote to rate me from 1 to 10, with 1 being negative, and 10 being positive. As each clicked their number on their Key Boards, the Tally of my Score of the past life as Jim appeared on a gigantic Screen for all to see, declaring me “GUILTY,…….or INNOCENT” of deserving to be punished, or rewarded, based on my past actions by Jim since birth.
My Final Judge turned out to be a big surprise! A big mirror appeared from the sky above me, and was placed directly in front of me, as the Crowd in the bleachers cheered, booed, cursed, screamed profanities and praises!! As I faced my Judge, now the reflection of the old man Jim, with images of Jim every 10 year increment back to a baby in my Father’s arms, a past life review of all I had helped or harmed, in any way, shape or form , in the brief moments where our Path crossed , quickly unfolded in huge Screen for all the Attendees in the bleachers to view!
Will those reading this be sitting in those bleachers on my Judgement Day, and if so, how will you Vote?

Hi Jim!!

Hope you and your wife are keeping well and happy, despite COVID, the devil, and your advancing years! :)

You mention Facebook (which I never got into from it's inception, and a decision I increasingly see the value of), I keep getting emails from "my Instagram account" showing me "people I know" I could connect to or what not, and indeed it appears to show a panel including some persons or family I know from across the globe - one of them is you!!! The really strange thing, though, is that I don't have an instagram account and I've never used it, so it is really scary how something I have never joined or use knows so much about me!!

Anyway - wow, that is quite the imagination you exercised in meditation that morning! :) Thanks for sharing - was this a literal vision, or more so purely an exercise in imagination?

I'll give you a ten Jim.

More importantly, maybe next time you sit, you sit down and mark everybody YOU ever came across out of ten. And keep doing this until you can genuinely give everyone a ten out ten, even your most hated oppressors and enemies.

I am an occultist aware of many, many powerful and secret practices, yogas, medicines etc.

None is more powerful than metta, trust me.

Lots of talks on RS forums about babas and bibis, meditation techniques, this or that samadhi, or magical syhcnronicity.

The only weapon that you will have at your disposal in that realm is your love, all else will be worthless.

Trust me, I am an occultist.


Hey - are you still driving your Harley? Maybe you should listen to this whilst out riding:


Very, very loud - that'll make you feel young again :)

All the best Jim, take care of yourself :)


Hi Manjit,…thanks for the Ten. Wife I are O.K. Unjabbed, and no Covid. Yes, I am either on my Harley or Spyder 2-3 hours every day it’s between 40-100 Degrees F with 15% or below rain forecast. It’s my outlet to be out. In Nature.
Unless the Bots have identified our past conversations here and on RSS , where else could they pair us up as possible friends on Facebook or Instagram? I am on both, but rarely post on Instagram. The only other possible connection is the Bots must also have read our few past private conversations on Yahoo Emails. Where else could it be? I have never outed your real Name to any one.
On another note, I still monitor RSS where I am still blocked from posting by Bean, along with Chris and a few others. But I see you FINALLY have met not only your intellectual Match, in not only the Yoga and Eastern Philosophies, but even the Plant and Drug experiences. He definitely is a Gift to the site, and is a breath of fresh air with What he contributes. Even Lane doesn’t dare to challenge him, because from all I have read, he has more real personal experience than any one I ever read over there, and even Jiv becomes tongue tied after reading his posts. Plus, he is humble about it, and while sharing, does not wear any Ego on his sleeves.He had , or still might have his own site, where he posts the same stuff, but it only had 8 members including me, as I recall, and no one posts there except him. So he must have got bored and needed a little Camaraderie, which is why he showed up on RSS. I think he was there before, under a different Avatar, but. Left, and has now returned. But all of his experimentation with Drugs was when he was half the age he is now, and since he does not recommend use or experimentation of even your favorite, Shrooms, I also recommend you also take his advice and abstain. You have too sharp a mind to risk fucking it up by a bad trip, that you can’t control, if you injest a dose of tainted had shit. It only takes once to blow your mind to no return to being in control. But what fo I know? Well, I know enough to have survived almost 80 years, and unlike poor Brian, am still able to piss with out a Catheter.
In answer to your question about my landing in a Football field where every one who had crossed my path in life sat in the bleachers to enter their Vote 1-10 on. weather I helped or hindered them , it was all imaginary thoughts while I was in. Meditation, which I still do 2-3 hours daily, still expecting some new Revelations to pop up from who knows where. I. Never get bored,, the good thing is, I Control when I go in and when I want to come out, unlike Drug tripping. Also, notice who my final judge was in my meditation. Those in the bleachers only. Voted to recommend, but only One final Judge did the sentencing.
Jim Sutherland

Haha, hi Jim! You have a very imaginative and curious interpretation of the world, which I personally find quite endearing :)

Re Instagram, it must be due to you sending me emails to my yahoo address, I imagine. I wasn't imagining or insinuating anything more sinister than that, no need for tin foil hats just yet!

Re. RSS, yes, Vajrasrijnana is indeed a refreshing and most interesting addition to the forum......I've gone from checking out the forum once a month to every day recently - great stuff!

Definitely a refreshing absence of ego in his fascinating wide and varied contributions, yes, you can sense that. Orange sunshine can do that to you, I suppose :) Though I'm not quite sure why you bring Lane or Jivatman into it :-/

You write: "But all of his experimentation with Drugs was when he was half the age he is now, and since he does not recommend use or experimentation of even your favorite, Shrooms, I also recommend you also take his advice and abstain. You have too sharp a mind to risk fucking it up by a bad trip, that you can’t control, if you injest a dose of tainted had shit."

That's really kind of you to think that, and I understand your concern. The problem is, seriously and honestly, I am too old and long in the tooth to be ingesting "tainted bad shit", and I know implicitly with absolute certainty - just as sure as you are that you are awake, now - that I would not have a "bad trip" with "good shit" let alone with lasting psychological consequences, it is to me a non-sensical suggestion as I am deeply familiar with myself, and the terrain. I fucking welcome "bad trips"......please, come, let's see what the problem is here :) I fear the risk of you riding that Harley is exponentially greater.......but shit happens, right, we can't be afraid to live our lives?!

But, Jim, there is a profound added irony here - despite my advocacy for certain psychedelics in highly specific contexts and quantities, and psilocybin in particular, I haven't actually had a psychedelic dose of mushrooms (or any other entheogen) for 3 or 4 years, and I have no desire or intention of going out of my way to procure the kind of assured quality I want (though fairly easily done :). Furthermore, I was having visionary experiences and spontaneous samadhis since I can remember, was having consciously induced "OBEs" or "astral projection" by the time I was a teen, multi-dimensional visionary experiences, "kundalini awakening" and non-dual realisation (after meeting our very own "Osho" :) by the time I was 23........all without so much of a drop of wine in my system for periods of years (although I did smoke tobacco.......a habit which all of these experiences didn't prevent - like Soamiji - but which was shed spontaneously, overnight, after a high dose psilocybin journey about 5 or 6 years ago now without a SINGLE MOMENT of desire to smoke since.....despite having absolutely no conscious desire or intent to stop prior.....just a fact of reality).

So my apparent advocacy isn't really for or about me, so much. It is what you would call in your old Christian roots "giving testimony".

After decades of following metaphysical practices like Rosicrucianism and RS, you still have to use your imagination in your morning meditation, and have concern and anxiety about death, and wonder how you will be remembered in a world where ultimately we will all be forgotten, far quicker than we think.

My advocacy is merely to make people aware there are more direct, actually applicable for the average person, techniques for a direct, experiential gnosis that helps us shed our fears, concerns about living and dying.

That's all.

Really no need to worry about me Jim :)

PS - really poor show and below the belt comment about Brian, I personally find. You may find that all this Jesus, Charan, RS, soul, sach khand nonsense is all worthless bullshit, and only your kindness, compassion, empathy etc will be weighed.........

Peace to all

Dear Manjit,.,,,just a couple more comments before you disappear again, as for me on my Harley, I have put 16,000 miles on it since I bought it 3 years ago, in addition to my Spyder, my 2nd one that I have put 59,000 miles on. The 1st one had 55,000 miles on it in the 5 years I had it, plus, I have been riding motor cycles before you were even born! I am safer on my Harley than walking up my 3 flights of stairs carrying groceries!
As for worrying about you messing up your brain with poisoned Shrooms, ….do you ever consider that young people could be reading the sites where you challenge readers to take mega hits of Shrooms? What if inexperienced youngsters that respect you from reading many of your posts buy poisoned Shrooms or other drugs from a Dealer and over dose and ruin their lives? I would never challenge inexperienced riders to mount a Harley, with out first starting with a bicycle , and working up to small Scooters before mounting an 800 Lb. Harley Beast with 1600 CCs and expecting to tame it!
Jim S.

and only your kindness, compassion, empathy etc will be weighed.........
add foregiveness and no thoughts



Nice to see you again
hear your adventures

"Karma" goes analogue, not digital
Analogue makes everything possible

So that the Anti-Vaxxers don’t kill us all, let’s hope scientists around the world work intensively on this new field of medicine that creates transmissible vaccines. These would allow you to “catch the vaccine” in the same way you catch Covid. 😃

(Thank you Science)


In view of Singhapour the most vaxed country
and their recent explosion of new cases
because their immune systemes are quasi destroyed
( like OK , when U know it better with yr spikes , . . we take a rest )
read this objective



The best performing country (230M people) is the worldwide best performing with ivermectin & artemisia )
the naked emporer will delete this - so make a copy

I think General Milley saved the planet AND YOU ALL
by de-activating the nucleair codes


( MAYBE THIS HOLD TWO HOURS, a kind of blog holocast )

Grades of Faith

Super Faith has one who hears the Sound all the time

Middle Faith if you have Loved and remember it often
(physical glance or inside)

Little faith when U heard about the former and sometimes feel attracted to it

Serendipities play their strong role intermediate
Serendipities are real physical events that are not possible to happen, still happen
mostly totally personal


Posted by: 777 | September 15, 2021 at 02:42 AM

@ 7
>>The best performing country (230M people) is the worldwide best performing with ivermectin & artemisia )https://www.bnr.nl/player/audio/10202158/10453719

I forgot to mention that 'country' of 230Million
Utter Pradesh
More convincing cannot be presented


@ 777
Just a thought .... due to living conditions in those countries, one can expect that their immune systems are under constant pressure from worms, parasites, bacteria etc, more than else where. An anti-parasite/ de-worming cure, might for that reason help, their immune system .... but ....that doesn't mean it is a cure for covid or an usable prophylactic medicine in countries where the pressure on the immune system is much lower, due to more hygienic lifestyle and exposure to worms and parasites etc etc.

It's just one state there practising , GOA also
In the other states following the Gov rules it's aweful

But there are so many suppressed reports confirming a 100% ( not 99%) profylactc success
I hope i m in time answering U



Why was the Spanish flue called the Spanish Flue?
Because they were neutral


@ 777
Maybe this is a more simple and natural approach:

I think so
F.I. in Oregon Cananis helps too
and like he said
so much more exist
but it s a little late to study all
specially when souble vaxed already




It was a long one but well done
Campbell might have read "Die to Live" from Maharaji Charan SinghJi

But Charan goes further , like
LOVE , . . Hypnotising Sound and U will be THAT
and Ofc
Do no harm

Thank U
I enjoyed
Dont need his tapes
I did the dying
Others here did too


@ 777

I hear what you say.
A dear friend that recently past away, had also "died" before his death.
Personally I never had an experience that deserves that name.
Being in my friends company for such a long time, I came to understand, that dying before death, doesn't solve the problem of death or life, it takes away the fear

@ 777

And ... whatever you and other "dead people being alive" write here and what was also spoken in a way by my dear friend, does not in any way resemble, the words, spoken and written, and the behavior, as expressed by the one that initiate all of you.


So Right

We can only apply what JapJi :

"Thus sais Nanak, the lowliest of the Lowly,
Sacrifice I am unto Thou, Oh Holy, "

kind of hypocrytical if we repeat that

We are Lucky we are not taken to our "words" to much by The Initiator

The dying is just secundary - The Love is What IS


Can I conclude U were associated with a satsangi
who proved the "dying" to U ?


If so, . . . enlighten Us

@ 777

There is nothing to say in this public forum these are very private things.

@ 777

Again ... it has always an surprise why people use the word ..LOVE ... so much having heard their teacher, what he had to say about love and the times he used the word.

Funny .....
Looking to some material on Youtube from Muraresku:

@ 777

My dear friend resembles in many ways Prof. Carl Ruck in that last video I posted hear.
It is not so much what he says but how he says it .. you should pay attention into the facial changes and the smile that comes and goes, the smile of a man that knows and cannot speak .... I hope that will help you to understand what you asked for about dying

These characters do not use the word ...LOVE

The secret to a lasting happiness is simple.

1. Own your fate.
2. Own your faith.

Hate begets hate. Attack and fear are two sides of the same coin.

It’s good to know when to walk away. “Know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, know when to walk away and know when to run” (classics)

There’s nothing wrong with running away from a toxic and destructive situation. You can’t be of help to anyone if you don’t help yourself first. And some people… well, just can’t help them. Actually, you can probably help them the most by leaving them on their own.

Well, I’ve been suffering from a long-term illness for quite some time now. It’s taken a huge toll on my body (and mind). I’ve lived in denial for the last year—as if positive thinking can actually cure a biological disease. Perhaps that works for some but apparently it wasn’t the elixir for me. But we’re here for a short time in the cosmic scheme off things. If you can overcome your fear of death while embracing the unknown then you’ve accomplished a lot. I hope that others continue to believe in the potential power innate in all of us. However, regardless of how powerful we are, our physical bodies will cease to exist one day. I hope the spirit truly lives on in a joyous state.


Hi Sonia - I'm sorry to hear about the illness. I wish you well :)

Hi Um - you write "Again ... it has always an surprise why people use the word ..LOVE ... so much having heard their teacher, what he had to say about love and the times he used the word."

Been reading the recent discussion around "love", "charitable" behaviour etc and their connection to Radhasoami teachings and specific gurus with interest as this has kind of been the essence of almost all my own online postings about RS for the past 5 or so years at least! From my perspective, the root cause of the confusion and seemingly conflicting interpretations of the RS teaching and practice between yourself and Spence is so very obvious, albeit fairly complex. It would be obvious to more people imo, if they were able to shed unexamined, preconceived notions & beliefs and actually critically examine these shaky foundations upon which all their "rationale" is based.

As I have mentioned before to you Um, I personally feel a major flaw or disconnect in your thinking process - and hence the reason why I believe what you say is fundamentally incorrect - is automatically associating family lineages of punjabi patriarchal religious leaders who are symbolic representations of genuine mystics with ACTUAL "mystics" and the "mystical path". I am making to you the suggestion this is a fundamentally flawed basis upon which to generalise about mystics, mysticism or the mystical experience. Fundamentally flawed, and will lead to great doubt and great error.

That said, you are of course right in describing to us the RS path and it's aims as taught by such religious patriarchs as Charan Singh - and rather delightfully - I literally am still unsure if it is somebody playing a satire on us, or if this genuinely does represent the "selfish" views of a real RSSB initiate - embodied here by Lalit and perhaps others (are these all Georgy Porgy wannabes? :). Yes, yes, RS is MOST DEFINITELY all about hyper-ego-centricity, the "pure" desire of the "individual soul", disconnected from all other "souls" and physical reality, "escaping" to a realm of eternal bliss and heaven, whilst losers like Mother Theresa and Gandhi, or indeed ANY mystic, guru, disciple, EVERYONE who didn't follow not only the very specific "selfish" path of "Sant Mat" (which didn't exist anywhere on the planet more than 300 years ago, btw), but also the VERY specific LINEAGE of family-patriarchs (being involved in billion dollar fraud and death threats is of course one of the hidden signs of very advanced masters in the kali yug, hence it was not listed in Sawan's PotM, we don't want millions of people with no real interest in spirituality following a real master do we? Wait, what.....) - all these other losers, which makes up about >99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of souls who've ever incarnated, are destined to go round in cycles of hell, whilst we blessed, elect, elite few look on from Sach Khand with Amrit Mojitos in hand. So disgusted are we with this world, and those losers who feel some sort of connection and responsibility to each other, to animals, to plants, to earth etc, that you are right, Charan did indeed remind us many times we are not to accidentally replace iron chains with gold chains by frivolously doing acts of charity and kindness! And, ahh, doesn't escape from it all sound so good? This IS, EXCLUSIVELY, a deeply life-denying, connection-denying, self-centred (call it soul, call it ego, it's all the same, disconnected individual concerned only about themselves, delusionally imagining it to be concern about some abstract "soul") neo-gnostic religious belief which is highly specific and local to the north Indian geo-culture from the period 1600-1900, with the Radhasoami religion being it's final, anachronistic crystalisation.

You are right, Um, all this is true.

The problem is, Um, this is not genuine mysticism and CERTAINLY not reflective of genuine mystical realisation - this is the the talk of pandits, scholars, religious leaders etc who repeat dogma and doctrine, ideas and concepts they have been taught, and their followers who mindlessly re-repeat it despite it being beyond obvious they have no evidence this religious belief is any more true than any other religious belief or claim. The imaginings and fantasies of ego-centric individuals who think they are the chosen elect.

If, however, we take a closer look at mystics like Jesus, Nanak or Buddha, we see clear and unambiguous prototypes of "social justice warriors". Many, many, respected mystics throughout history have been persecuted, abused, jailed, tortured or killed due NOT to their alleged advocation of 5 name simran and shabd yoga (which, let's be honest, nobody gave a shit about) BUT because of their challenge to the social hierarchy and oppression of their times.

Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan, or his final and most important teaching of "love one another", or Buddha's strict Sila code without which there cannot be any progress on his path, to the Mahayana buddhist vow to not attain "liberation" until all other sentient beings are free, or the innumerable tales of Nanak's egregious, disabling kindness and charity from a young age, to his status quo challenging and dangerous views on women in society, caste, the hypocrisy of priests etc, to Guru Arjan's insistence on providing free food to anybody who requires it at ALL places of worship etc etc. Charity, kindness, risking oneself by being vocal about social injustices and inequality etc seems to me, after having read many thousands of alleged mystic testimonies, a pretty universal characteristic of the genuine "mystical" or "spiritual" experiencer.

One of the many ironies I find in your argument is this insistence there is nothing in RS like protestant concept of "charity"; I actually understand your critical viewpoint of this organised, ideological "protestant" "love" and "compassion", and how it can lead to societal dangers (however, I think charity, protestant or otherwise, is still infinitely preferable to the neo-gnostic, anachronistic, life-denying, miserable fantasy of escaping iron and gold chains). But the grand irony is, RS does indeed have it's almost completely IDENTICAL concept of "seva"! Yes, "seva" is like the protestant concept of "charity"; ultimately, it is self-serving, selfish, no? :)

This is the problem with religions, they are attempting to imitate the mystic/al, they are faking it until they make it - but their followers mistakenly imagine they've achieved something just by magically recognising the one true guru and path in the multiverse with their astonishingly insightful, yet also incredibly humble, mind, and by playing "let's pretend I'm a humble sevadar", a game that is played by thousands every weekend. Genuine love and acts of kindness etc are the spontaneous actions of those who have had genuine spiritual or mystical experiences or realisations. Seva and charity are organised religious behaviours. At least some of the time it does actually benefit others outside of the chosen elect, even if often for publicity or tax purposes.....

Annnnyways, to come back to my point in writing this - I have been trying to communicate for years now something which I personally think is profound, inarguable and obvious; deeper mystical experiences and realisations transcend cultural and linguistic narratives, and RS mat is clearly, very, very clearly, a cultural and linguistic construct that has evolved through time and has no inherent reality beyond those cultural and linguistic parameters.

Whilst this (and it's implications for the whole RS belief) seems obvious to me, I suspect this is a highly complex "meta-idea" for most RS followers to understand, so I will attempt an illustration to parse out the layers; Guru Nanak and Kabir were born into a culture and language where certain ideas about reality and the "soul" were extremely influential to the degree they were actually unquestioned assumptions. Those unquestioned, universally accepted (in their geo-cultural context) assumptions about the mechanics of reality were god, individual soul, maya, karma, reincarnation. Against that backdrop - or perhaps conceptual matrix - did Nanak and Kabir fulfil their mystical obsessions and achieve, apparently, exalted states of spiritual or mystical ecstasy and insight. However, if one closely reads all the writings of Nanak and Kabir (or indeed, most other genuine mystics), one finds a clear and unambiguous TRANSCENDENCE of these dualistic concepts that they were BORN into. Nanak's Jap Ji Sahib is a pure non-dual text. I have posted several times a quote from Kabir where he says there is no karma, go guru, no shabd, no radiant form etc in his non-dual ecstasy, and that it is pandits and scholars who talk of these things. Think!

Fast forward several hundred years, and we have westerners and modern Indians who are born into an entirely different culture and belief set who mistakenly believe they have to accept the cultural and linguistic context of these medieval Indian mystics to be able to realise the same mystical experience or insight as them; this is utterly absurd! The whole notion of karma, sach khand as a region to escape to, iron chains and gold chains etc has absolutely nothing to do with the mystical realisation of Nanak or Kabir - let alone the obscenity of trying to associate those cultural beliefs as some kind of universal trait of mystics everywhere from Christian, Sufi to Shamans in Tibet or America, or NDE experiencers or psychedelic experiencers etc. RS followers may be surprised to learn there is such a thing as a truly universal mystical experience, and that it isn't constrained by the culture and language of punjab circa 1550-1900!

When Richard Rolle experiences and describes an intense relationship with a divine inner shabd and inner heat, he doesn't frame it within the escapist ideology and concepts of RS, of karma or reincarnation, of living human gurus etc. He experiences and translates it through the language and cultural context of Jesus Christ. There are some, I note, who try to associate the beautiful, ecstatic outpourings of love from Rumi with the deadening, out of time and out of place, life-denying, selfish aims of RS dogma! This is obscene and dishonest! There is absolutely no connection on any level whatsoever between the beliefs, mindset, and egalitarian, non-judgemental love-ecstasy of Rumi and the fear-based escapism of karmically-centred RS mat, and it is pure delusion to suggest otherwise!

The ecstasy of inner sound and light (which, imo, is not the "highest" state") is not exclusive to those who deny life. In fact, I suggest those who truly have merged with this ecstasy to some notable degree TRANSCEND such small minded, selfish concerns and narratives, like Kabir and Nanak did. Today, we - at the behest of pandits and religious leaders with no real personal experience of any depth - take that which they transcended and hold it aloft as their final realisation - this is literally to destroy the wheat and keep the chaff!; we need to apply greater thought, greater resolution, to the mindscape of these mystics, if we are to truly understand them.

The real mystic surely realises - and experiences - the connection and oneness of all things; that is "sach khand". There is no escape. There is nowhere to escape to. Love - and spontaneous acts of kindness and charity - are the natural aroma or consequence of such a realisation, like when a child realises touching a hot stove with their hand is "ouch", so directly the real mystic is aware of the connection to all sentient beings, and all sentient beings are our collective "hands", and if anyone says "ouch", we ALL hurt. Anyone who talks of a "real home" that is detached from reality as it is, here and now, has no "real home", they will always be trying to escape.

I understand the demi-urgic influence, very well. I understand why some people say this world is "maya" or under the control of kal, "the Prince of this world". We see it every day - we live in a world of lies and manipulation, of anger, division, fear and hate. Of wars, poverty, disease, ever increasing natural disasters, of orphaned, dismembered children that nobody even knows about, let alone cared about or remembered. The hacks, or pretenders, are at the top of the pile whereas the real artists go poor and unrecognised. Religions claim to be spiritual/mystical, and family lineages of those seeking generational power, prestige and wealth call themselves "mystics". Despite never being so connected as we are now, never have we felt more disconnected from each other and alone. Etc etc etc.

Yes, yes, kal.

But what is lost on those who have had this partial, incomplete "realisation" (or, in the vast majority of cases, simply miserable intellectual belief) is that this is merely one layer of reality, and by no means some final or complete perception of what reality - even just here on physical earth - is. There is another, deeper perception of reality as a divine play of immense and inexpressible beauty and joy, where love and compassion is like a basic universal force whereby all this is kept in motion. THAT is "Sach Khand", or "God". In this realisation, "kal" is merely seen as one particular layer or ingredient - a necessary one - in the formation of reality, but by no means the ultimate descriptor of reality, here and now.

So, there are those who are perhaps not so familiar with these deeper mystical experiences and realisations, who perhaps as patriarchal leaders of religions, parrot the dogma and doctrine of their faith without much thought. We should not conflate these with actual, ecstatic mystics, who's experiences transcend such petty, cultural-linguistic constructs as the life and compassion-denying dogma of RS.

If there is one reliable, universal sign of the deeper mystical experience, it is love (imo, Bernadette Rodgers would possibly disagree, but then I would disagree with her :). Where love - and it's natural aroma of kindness, charity etc - is absent, you can be sure you're dealing with either a cult, occult practice or religion.

Imo of course :)

@ Manjit

It is to much for me to digest.
The time you invested in writing this messages deserves an proper answer but I can't.

Maybe time has come to walk away from these conversations, i cannot interact with You, Spence, AR and others, in the manner that does right to the level of understand, experience etc you people work from

A lot of gibberish. Icing on the cake being Santmat existing just 300 years. Just goes to show how shallow one's understanding is of Santmat/mysticism and similarities to the core teachings of all religions going back to Zoroaster.

@ Manjit

>>As I have mentioned before to you Um, I personally feel a major flaw or disconnect in your thinking process - and hence the reason why I believe what you say is fundamentally incorrect - is automatically associating family lineages of punjabi patriarchal religious leaders who are symbolic representations of genuine mystics with ACTUAL "mystics" and the "mystical path". I am making to you the suggestion this is a fundamentally flawed basis upon which to generalise about mystics, mysticism or the mystical experience. Fundamentally flawed, and will lead to great doubt and great error.<<

Manjit ... let me put before you again the comparison I have often used here:

If I go out to a restaurant, the only thing that matters to me is, whether the food is tasty to me, whether I can stand the staff, the atmosphere etc.

I do not discuss the level of these things with anybody, what it means to me, my personal experience is what matters.

What I hold of this or that restaurant, its staff, cheffs, owners and other guest, can not and should not be an judgement.

The same hold s for the spiritual schools as they present themselves into this world. If I feel not emotional and/or intelectual attracted to a teacher and his teachings, I just leave it by side ... but that ... tells only something about me ...me .. my tastes.

I do not go into restaurants to sit in judgement .. that is the job of those who write books, colums etc

If some one things i have a bad taste .. and what I love to eat does not deserve other label than junkfood .. so be it ... it is their problem not mine.

Nobody needs to go to the restaurants I love to frequent., nor am i interested in where they go

I had a great time when I was associated with the teachers in Beas for 2 decades, I came to meet many good people and my best friend that past away, recently, ... it makes me thankfull and brings a smile in my face.


And to go on with the comparisson ...

If some one goes on to say that a certain sweet is on the menu in a given restaurant that I frequent or frequented and even goes that far as to suggest that that is dish for which that particular restaurant is known ... and ... that is not correct as the whole sweet is not even to be found on the menu

Then .... i will tell that person that he is telling something that is not correct.

It has nothing to do, with that restaurant, the sweet or whatever ... it is just about a person for reasons unkown makes things up that do not exist

That Manjit is my simple reality

manjit, as ever, pleasure to read your well informed and well reasoned post.

um, I for one have been enjoying reading your discussion with Spence. Please don't feel yourself in any way ...inadequate, in discussing things here. manjit and Spence do speak of deep mystical realizations, but if someone like me, who's entirely innocent of anything experientially mystical (at least to the best of my knowledge, and beyond the occasional and mundane but nevertheless deeply satisfying cessation, or near-cessation, of mental chatter) can ramble on here, then so can you! :---))

Like I'd said, briefly, in that other thread, this discussion is best broken up into three parts, into three distinct questions:

(1) The first question would be: Does RSSB hold that charity and love for one's fellow man is a necessary, or even a helpful, part of the spiritual path (as prescribed by RSSB)?

This is a focused question, and can be answered unambiguously by presenting evidence from the words of present and past RSSB masters.

The answer has to be one of these four options:
(a) Yes, it does.
(b) No, it doesn't. (That is, either it explicitly says it is irrelevant, or else simply keeps stum on that point.)
(c) The answer depends on context, on specifics, and differs from case to case.
(d) RSSB is all over the place on this, and clearly doesn't know what it is talking about, in that it keeps contradicting itself.

(2) The second question would be, what do mystical traditions in general (not just RSSB) have to say about this?

This question, too, can be answered clearly and unambiguously by presenting evidence in the form of words of present and past mystics who are considered authoritative in/by their traditions/followers.

(3) The third question would be, not limited to what specific traditions say, but what, in general, would be the answer to this question: Does charity and love for one's fellow man have anything to do with mysticism?


manjit, from your post I gather that you answer "No" to the first question; "Yes" to the second question (your examples of Nanak and Kabir); and "Yes" to the third question as well.


Actually, manjit, I loved this part of what you'd said, "If there is one reliable, universal sign of the deeper mystical experience, it is love ... Where love - and it's natural aroma of kindness, charity etc - is absent, you can be sure you're dealing with either a cult, occult practice or religion."

Basis my limited experience, I'd agree. True, unselfish (if I may use that word) mediation, absorption, these things do lead to a 'softening' of one's ego, and do result in what seems like a strengthening of empathy. Empathy not just for other men (and women), but indeed for all life. At least in my very limited experience.


I remain interested in this question. To all three questions.

As far as the third question, there is this though:

While some kind of mystical realization --- however defined --- is probably associated with greater empathy, but does the reverse hold true? That is, does "fake it until you make it" actually make for a reasonable strategy, or is that part all bullshit?


"A lot of gibberish. Icing on the cake being Santmat existing just 300 years. Just goes to show how shallow one's understanding is of Santmat/mysticism and similarities to the core teachings of all religions going back to Zoroaster."

Posted by: GSD_Rocks_despite_the_likes_of_manjits | September 27, 2021 at 08:51 AM

Hardly gibberish, and hardly Zarathustra, but in this much I agree with what you say, basis my very limited reading of RSSB literature, that RSSB does claim that the path it teaches goes back to Kabir. Maybe even back to much earlier times, but I'm fuzzy on this. But certainly up to Kabir. So greater than 300 years, at any rate, and going by what they themselves claim.

Hardly gibberish, and hardly Zarathustra, but in this much I agree with what you say, basis my very limited reading of RSSB literature, that RSSB does claim that the path it teaches goes back to Kabir. Maybe even back to much earlier times, but I'm fuzzy on this. But certainly up to Kabir. So greater than 300 years, at any rate, and going by what they themselves claim.

Posted by: Appreciative Reader | September 27, 2021 at 09:54 AM

Songs of Devotion - The Gathas of Zarathustra. Published by Radhasoami Satsang Beas

Now don't get back saying it's some distorted interpretation of Zoroastrianism to suit Santmat Philosophy. A well researched publication even run past Parsi scholars in India.

A Zaratosht

Hi Um - you wrote "The time you invested in writing this messages deserves an proper answer but I can't."

Thank you, but it's not a problem! Surely we write for our own pleasure as much as anything else? - I'd be lying if I say I was expecting a discussion :)

To be clear, in your discussion with Spence, I actually find your view to be more accurate and coherent. However, I find the spirit of Spence's view, however incoherent and confused it may be, to be more valuable and worthwhile on a human level!

I appreciate and agree with the essence of what Spence is trying to communicate, but I feel there is a deep confusion born of a kind of wishy-washy, wishful sentimentality when he projects his own (imo) innate goodness and decency upon the dogma and doctrine of RS theology, and person of the RSSB religious leader.

It kind of reminds me of Dungeness's frequent claim that RS gurus present us with a path, and sincerely ask us if we know of anything better or faster ("better" or "faster" in what narrative context? Clearly RS meditation isn't "better" or "faster" for anybody satisfied with their life already, it would merely be an encumbrance?) that we should try it and also let them know and they may also accept it......when in reality
Gurinder is telling sobbing people who feel they've been completely unsuccessful with decades of daily meditation to shut up, keep meditating and stop complaining. A carrot and stick situation.......but with all stick, all the time. I think again Dungeness's no doubt evident innate goodness is being projected upon a situation where there is no connection at all with the actual reality.

In the 21st century it becomes clearer and clearer the - as you entirely correctly suggest - life-denying, connection-despising, medieval Indian neo-gnostic doctrine of karma, reincarnation and "sach khand" as being detached from the rest of sentient life, and the hyper-ego-centric desire of personal liberation into some kind of eternal ecstasy with no regard for any other soul etc is out of touch and out of date with modern sensibilities, modern common sense, just pure old simple being a decent human being in modern times. The INNATE decency of just being human. And when our "Godmen" and "spirituality" falls below even the morals and ethics of just being a basically decent human being in our own time, we have a problem whether it is vocalised or not. So you will hear endless - imo - vacuous, wishy-washy, wishful, naive sentimentality projecting all these modern people's innate goodness upon a dogma and doctrine that is in itself completely void of such goodness! That's religion for you.

All talk of being a decent human being as a basic part of RS teachings is completely besides the point - this is not love, or the mystical sense of connection. As is evident by almost every single RS poster online ever, Sach Khand is conceived of in RS as separate from the suffering of this world and a place of eternal, personal, bliss. Good works, seva, meditation etc are all basically transactions we make to purchase eternal bliss. Vegetarianism is far more a concern to do with purity and "karma" than genuine love and compassion, as is evidenced by the many comments by RS followers when veganism was discussed here. This is all transactional mentality, religious mentality, nothing genuine, nothing authentic. Love and compassion has very little to do with it. It is beyond a joke to suggest otherwise; real love is when you lose all care or concern for the self, and all you are is concerned for everyone else - that is love. No question of seeking "liberation", or escaping to "Sach Khand" - no room for fear of karma and reincarnation - who cares! THIS is the mystical experience. To say RS increases love and compassion for others, whilst we plot our escape to Sach Khand, is absurd and incoherent. Not even a mother is concerned for her own welfare and condition when it comes to her child, and will lie in her own child's urine rather than let the child do so. What are we to say about the state of the mystic? Is he or she desiring of Sach Khand, or afraid of karma and reincarnation? Honestly, these are questions and arguments for those who are unfamiliar with the mystical. Ask Rumi ;)

But, when good people like Spence and Dungeness follow these kind of religions, they project their own innate goodness and authenticity upon them, and read love and compassion even where it is not really written - even if the result is confused and confusing for onlookers :)

So, Um, I happen to agree with the "by the letter of the law" interpretation of RS, and find the attempts to crowbar into the RS dogma love and compassion to be somewhat confused at it's core.

My only 2 disagreements with your posts are 1) your suggestion there is no element of protestant "charity" in RSSB, when in fact the concept or notion of "seva" is perhaps an even more extreme example of dangers of religiously motivated, organised "charity" than even in the Church, and more importantly 2) that your implicit suggestion that the RSSB religion and family patriarch of Charan Singh represent the experiences, beliefs and behaviours of most or even all previous "mystics"; I am merely pointing out this is demonstrably untrue, and I personally consider it a disservice to the genuine spirit of most mystics throughout history and across the globe to suggest iron and gold chains is some kind of perennial mystical truth, when it in fact simply isn't (it is a partial truth, at best). Even people who are deeply devoted to Charan on this forum are attempting to correct you this - not because you are incorrect about Charan, but because they are confused about their own innate goodness.......they know what is right, what is "good".....on a universal level beyond even their association with this religion........so they project that upon Charan.

But it is simpler than all this - just read Rumi, then see if your generalisations about "all mystics" and "love" is true, or if it is merely a story about your own association with a specific religion and their specific interpretation?

In regards your oft-resorted to comparison of restaurants and menus, I feel your are misguided in your metaphors, or at least a little twisted :) We are not in a restaurant - we are writing in letters to a food critic magazine!! Some of us readers and letter writers may never have seen a restaurant - whilst others may own one! But this is all irrelevant to the words on a screen on this blog. So, I can surely appreciate you had such a wonderful time with RSSB and Charan - like I have written innumerable times, my years following Gurinder and doing seva were some of the most blessed and beautiful moments of my life. But, despite your 2 posts about it, this has absolutely nothing at all to do with what I write on any level.

I couldn't care less what meal anyone likes and at which restaurant or street vendor or trash bin they get it from - couldn't care in the slightest, not even paying attention to that. However, writing here on this restaurant food critic forum, I am merely making it known that a big mac and fries is not 5 star michelin chef made meal, and that a piece of mouldy bread found in a dumpster is not the same as fine cuisine.

I am not insisting one go here or there, I simply don't care for individual preferences, I am simply making it known that a big mac and fries is not a 5 star michelin chef made meal, in case some people - cough, cough - weren't aware of it.......


@ Manjit

I have never had any Issue with the teachers, the teachings of Beas.
I could not.
I was trained by my father to hear upon him when he had something to say.
Nothing more nothing less
I was not and never asked to agree.
How I digested what he had to say was of my own.
His words were just things he had put on the table.
He would not force me to eat let alone to enjoy it.

In that spirit I deal with whatever crosses my mind in this world.

It is up to me how I digest Sant Mat, and my digestion is the only thing that maters for me.

And I will repeat it again .. I have nothing to say about these teachers and teachings as it is not needed to make up my mind. and I never did.

The issue of truth about these teachers and teachings are not things for me to waste my time.

""A lot of gibberish. Icing on the cake being Santmat existing just 300 years. Just goes to show how shallow one's understanding is of Santmat/mysticism and similarities to the core teachings of all religions going back to Zoroaster."

Posted by: GSD_Rocks_despite_the_likes_of_manjits | September 27, 2021 at 08:51 AM

Appreciative Reader replied: Hardly gibberish, and hardly Zarathustra, but in this much I agree with what you say, basis my very limited reading of RSSB literature, that RSSB does claim that the path it teaches goes back to Kabir. Maybe even back to much earlier times, but I'm fuzzy on this. But certainly up to Kabir. So greater than 300 years, at any rate, and going by what they themselves claim."

Oh this is so cute :)

To my mind, the writings of Alice Bailey are "Theosophy" - but dare say that to a Helena Blavatsky devotee who has painstakingly read every word of Blavatsky's multiple times, and all the works of Bailey too - they will sit you down and explain the finer points of radical divergence in teachings, and hence inaccuracy of labelling Bailey's concepts as identical or even supportive of Blavatsky's concepts, for many hours! What I am saying is, my own superficial understanding or awareness of Blavatsky and Bailey blinds me to the more detailed, nuanced, high-resolution understanding of these concepts and their relationship to each other, and hence the radical differences in them.

I really don't know what to say - having read all the RSSB publications up until 2000 or so at least 2 or 3 times, and read more or less every word ascribed to both Nanak and Kabir (even words misattributed to them, like Anurag Sagar, which is almost religiously considered within RS to be written by Kabir, but this is almost certainly incorrect as is evidenced by the radical change in content and style to his more or less "confirmed" works, and late appearance many years if not centuries after his death, as I believe is also confirmed by scholars and historians today), and far more importantly the culture and philosophical context within which their lives occurred, as well as speaking the language of these traditions since birth, it is to me beyond obvious "Santmat" didn't exist more than 300 years ago.

I have written before that I believe the term "Santmat" itself is a verbal sleight of hand that creates the illusion of continuity and connection to a set of past "mystics" that the culture and tradition within which RS evolved highly respected and revered, like Guru Nanak and Kabir. This can often outrageously extend to even those with RADICALLY different beliefs and practices, such as the Islamic sufi Rumi, or Mira Bai etc, if they are revered enough in the culture. They can surely be crow-barred into the dogma - the whirling dervish once sang a poem about heavenly music? Excellent, a "Sant mat" guru then, who surely also taught about karma, the world is hell and suffering, karma and reincarnation etc from which we must escape with specifically the 5 shabd.....basically a Hindu mystic from 17th century Indian specifically, but forced to pretend he was a Muslim. Yeah, sure. Perhaps actually read some Rumi :)

So, before claiming "Santmat" existed more than 300 years ago, please show one instance of the use of this term from before that date. Despite both "Sant" and "mat" being extremely popular terms in the punjabi language, these are not linked together to my knowledge anywhere outside or prior to around the 1700s.....and the use arises specifically amongst those groups that are the direct forerunners to the Radhasoamsi tradition (we're talking of the Dariya, Tulsi Sahibs etc). Today, anyone and everyone who uses this term is exclusively exposed to it from Radhasoami related groups, as the term AND what it specifically refers to did not exist historically (pre 1700s ish) or outside of the Radhasoami context to this very day, ie it is entirely synonymous with the term "Radhasoami mat", but creates the illusion of historical connection. If there is any instance of any of the gurus in the Granth Sahib using this term, I am not aware of it. Probably because "Santmat" either as a neologism or even practice probably didn't exist, and even if it did Nanak and Kabir CERTAINLY didn't practice it! That is more or less just an obvious fact, in socio-historic context.

Significant differences between the concepts and life of Kabir, Nanak and several other alleged "Sant mat" mystics from the Guru Granth Sahib, with the Radhasoami mat of today (and these are simply factual statements, interpret or misinterpret them as you will :):

1) RS mat says practicing breath control was an effective practice from previous yugas (so many millions of years or some such previously, certainly not 500 years ago), but that it is no longer effective. Those that practice and teach breath control, chakras, nadis or kundalini etc as causal means to absorption into inner sound are "lower level yoga teachers" who are essentially of a "negative power" or kal. They suggest that the "secret" (which, if you think about it, is quite funny :) method of RS is to perform simran of 5 names whilst focussed at the ajna chakra. On the contrary, it is spectacularly obvious the mystics of the Granth Sahib practiced breath control as in integral part of their shabd yoga, and held it in high esteem:


Ipso facto, both Kabir, Nanak and many other mystics from the Granth Sahib are, by RS's very own teachings and definitions, lower level gurus of "kal".

In other words, bare jokes all round ;)

2) In RS we are taught of 5 realms or regions with their 5 rulers. In the RS cosmology we are taught the ruler of the first region, and hence an agent if you will of "Kal", or the demi-urge, is Niranjan, and the second region, hence a slightly more powerful agent of Kal (:o), is called by "Onkar".

Due to the general ignorance of westerners, and lack of deeper awareness of those born into this religion in India along with perhaps an inability to question their own beliefs, may not be aware that Nanak and other gurus of the Granth Sahib consider Niranjan and Onkar to the the most supreme, immaculate lord, the highest God etc. I will spare posting any of the many dozens if not hundreds of quotes from the Granth Sahib showing this, I think I have done this and anyone can search the Granth online in seconds.

Ipso facto, both Kabir, Nanak and many other mystics from the Granth Sahib are, by RS's very own teachings and definitions, lower level gurus of "kal".

In other words, bare jokes all round ;)

3) We do not know of any physical, human guru of Nanak's - it seems quite unlikely there was one. Stories around Kabir's possible guru leave us with the distinct impression he wasn't a very great human being, let alone Godman. There are stories in the Granth Sahib of people achieving "God" by worshipping stones (Dhanna Bhagat) etc. All of this is in direct conflict with the view of the authority by (usually family) lineage in the RS tradition, and that anybody and everybody outside of this direct chain of spiritual transmission cannot be a genuine satguru, achieve "God" or "Sach khand" and is either/both delusional and/or under the sway of kal.

Ipso facto, both Kabir, Nanak and many other mystics from the Granth Sahib are, by RS's very own teachings and definitions, lower level gurus of "kal".

In other words, bare jokes all round ;)

Now, I can't stand around here joking all day. Some of us have things to do. Not me, but you get the point ;)

Interesting POV, manjit.

It is clear to me, even basis my limited reading of RSSB, that they do claim that their tradition goes back to Kabir. Maybe even longer back, but like I said I'm fuzzy on that. This other poster, who posts with different avatars, says here that RSSB's claim extends right back to Zoroaster; and, pending any corrections from others on this, I'll take him at his word.

You don't contest that, that is, you don't contest that RSSB claim that they go back to Kabir and maybe beyond; but you've laid out a fairly detailed argument that their claim itself is false. Again, much as I took that other poster at face value, seeing no reason to doubt him, I'll do the same with what you say. What you say seems to make sense; and it is frankly beyond me to critique your argument, at least not without reading up a great deal, and I see no reason not to accept what you're saying at face value (at least pending any correction by others to what you say say).


Any thoughts on my earlier post?

Specifically, this: While I agree with you that mysticism---however defined---is probably associated with greater empathy and compassion and "love", but what I was wondering is if the reverse might hold.

To spell it out: Any thoughts on whether "fake it until you make it" might work in this context; that is, might going in for the empathy and compassion thing, while not actually having arrived at it organically via bona fide mysticism---either strategically or simply basis one's innate nature---might that play any role at all in facilitating mystical absorption?

@ AR

As far as I understand, mystics, after having their inner experience, are convinced that what holds for them, holds for everybody, it is universal.

That said every mystic, sjaman etc can only share his vision in the language that he speaks ... the medicine man of an indigenous tribe visiting Europe, can only relate to his tribes people on comming home, in their language, a language with concepts related to their history and environment.

In the testaments, the apostles have Christ say something to the extent that he had to come in a human body and to speak their language to tell them that the kingdom of heaven is inside them and they are all gods. He also stressed that he would not change their ideas as laid down in the old testament,


Well for the simple reason that they would otherwise not listen.

Let me exaggerate what i mean ... any mystic, will tell all sorts of stories, probably even lies if it helps to see that the people have their "shields lowered and down" to use starfleed lingo.... hahaha.

So if one talks to Christians and what you say goes against their believe system, they will defend themselves mentally and stop listening and begin arguing etc.

So what ever they say must be plausible to the listener and need not represent the experience at all.

It is all a matter of psychology, used to calm the mind. so that they can accept the invitation to see for themselves by practice.

All mystics speak about the role of the world, the role of the senses, the mind and how it affects the attention..... if you have listened to what Richard Baker Roshi had to say, you might have grasped that meditation is an attention shift, opening up to a broader spectrum that what is available by the senses.

You see any protestant, presented with what I write will tell me that this is not what Christ meant and that I am using their teaching for my own interpretation. He will tell me that Christ is a savior and died for ower sins. If I like him and he or she is strong enough I will say, that is your protestant interpretation, an interpretation that is nowhere to be found in the gospels. In those Gospels Christ nowhere says that he was alive to be killed for their sins. What he did say was, that he had come to show the kingdom in heaven. Why was he killed, for the very simple reason he was a thread for the religious and worldly establishment, that could only imagine an kingdom on earth. He accepted death as payment for the truth.

Mystics all over the place are faced with the same problems ... follow a course in psychology and you will understand, what it is all about.

How can one make the mind accept the possibility of another "reality" second attention Castaneda would call it .. haha

It is all rational ... how to calm down the mind ...patanjali called THAT yoga

Hi AR, thanks for your comments! You write: ".....[in] my limited reading of RSSB, that they do claim that their tradition goes back to......."

Well, Paul Twitchell the infamous western RS off-shoot founder of Eckankar claimed his teachings went back to the secret masters Rebezar Tarz and Fubbi Qantz, Yogananda and Kriya yoga claim their teachings and lineage go back to multi-hundred year old Babas hiding in the himalayas for centuries, Blavatsky claimed her teachings and lineage goes to back to centuries old Secret White Brotherhood of hidden masters in the himalayas with very eastern sounding names like Koot Hoomi and Morya, Islam claims their teachings go back to the Angel Gabriel, no less, whilst Christians and Jews claim their cosmology and world history goes back to the beginning of time - some 3 or 4000 years ago, with Adam and Eve, and L Ron Hubbard mentioned something about Xenu. Now it's been a long while since I read about the whole whack-doodle of a cosmology known as scientology so I can't remember if Xenu was a good guy or evil dude, but still, you know, Xenu. If you add to that my claim that I was born from an egg on a mountain top, that monkey is funky, and that my teachings go back to a luminescent pink unicorn who imparted it's wisdom to me on said mountain top back when mountains didn't even exist (?) whilst every RS guru past, present and future was also present, well, then we're left with quite a few "claims", aren't we? Contrary-wise, I hope I have shared some searchable consensual facts about RS and it's connection to Nanak and Kabir which bring great doubt and great confusion for some of those claims, if they are indeed true.

I have not read the apparently new RSSB publication relating to Zoroastrianism, nor do I intend to. I am not unfamiliar with either of these religions. It should be obvious that although I am saying the RS or "Santmat" teachings didn't exist more than 300 years ago, that I am in no way suggesting they arose either in a conceptual, cultural, philosophical or linguistic vacuum, or that they were revealed by alien life forms. Ie., this implies that if RS/Sant mat teachings started to crystalise some 300 or less years ago, that they were potentially heavily influenced by gnostic, vedic, tantric, Islamic, Christian, Buddhist, Greek, Egyptian, Hermetic etc etc etc beliefs and practices. I am in no way suggesting there is not elements of many or all of these influences in RS mat. I am saying, however, that the very specific cosmology, beliefs, practices and claims of RS/Santmat as they were fully crystalised in the teachings of Soamiji circa 1900, certainly did not exist anywhere in the world prior to around 300 years ago.

I have already over many years provided quite a lot of references, even if often in the general rather than specific, for the clear and unambiguous evolution of shabd yoga on the Indian subcontinent from the tantric meting pot of Kashmir and Uddiyana, from Kashmiri Shaivism (where the first real clear and detailed yogic thought and practice of associating inner sound with the cosmic vibration can be found), via the cosmologically and philosophically ungrounded yogic practice of Goraknatha yogis, via the bhakti sants (such as Kabir and Nanak, and later to be mislabelled with the neologism "Santmat gurus"), to the tradition via Dariya Sahib, Tulsi Sahib and others I now forget we now call "Radhasoami", and this is just the most obvious and inarguable influences, we cannot calculate how much gnostic or egyptian beliefs, for example, influenced it. At no point in any of these changes in tradition, era etc, was there any kind of consistency to the cosmological "claims" of each of these centuries long lasting traditions. Ironically, I personally consider the first and oldest known iteration of this practice of inner sound yoga on the Indian subcontinent, Kashmiri Shaivism, to be the most beautiful, sophisticated, life-affirming, non-dual and practically useful of any of these schools of conceptual and cosmological thought. It also has a shit-load more of practical yogic techniques, not only for listening to inner sounds, but a whole host of other techniques if one has no success with that method.

It goes without question that RS has and will continue to publish innumerable books showing the connection between inner sound and past mystics and religions. The problem is, and I do mean this quite literally, it is exactly the same if you consider the core secret of mysticism to be inner heat or kundalini, or the breath, or inner light, or non-duality/Self/No-self, or love and compassion, or seva or service, or prayer, or psychedelics etc etc..........once you focus in on any one particular aspect, you will find all of "mystic" history riddled with it. Such are the many faces of the "Divine".

But that doesn't mean that a particular religious interpretation of a universal human potential is any way proprietary, which of course is what RS dogma claims it to be, and very exclusively so! (I mean, who cares about Zoroaster or Ahura Mazda or whomever the good Gods are, just because someone somewhere mentioned something about inner sound during a visionary state - I mean, which DMT trip doesn't begin with inner sound? - that doesn't say anything at all about karma, transmigration, 5 regions, kal for eg., LET ALONE which of the thousand and one RS gurus is the true guru today!! These gurus absolutely do not grant each other equal status, and highly respected RS gurus of the past have labelled the highly respected family members and chosen successors of their own guru "mayaic insects", and have been involved legal proceedings to do with defamation or some such, etc. The history of RS succession is riddled with such power-grabbing, and indeed cannot even be separated from such worldly ambitions and politics. Go on, I dare you to try :)

So there is no real honesty in the selective quote harvesting that is employed by RS publishers and followers, it is more "just so" story telling. As I mentioned many times, even Rumi is quoted often in RS publications and magazines. Wow. It is beyond impossible to honestly believe - if one is familiar with his writings - that what he is teaching bares any resemblance to the life-denying, individual soul liberation seeking, of the neo-hindu religious teachings of Radhasoami mat. Yet, it is done, and done often. So much for "claims", and low-resolution integrity about the teachings, practices and beliefs of these past mystics and groups. Even a single line out of a million lines will be pounced upon, to the exclusion of all else, to make a point of religious belief.

You asked: "Any thoughts on my earlier post?

Specifically, this: While I agree with you that mysticism---however defined---is probably associated with greater empathy and compassion and "love", but what I was wondering is if the reverse might hold.

To spell it out: Any thoughts on whether "fake it until you make it" might work in this context; that is, might going in for the empathy and compassion thing, while not actually having arrived at it organically via bona fide mysticism---either strategically or simply basis one's innate nature---might that play any role at all in facilitating mystical absorption?"

I feel this is the problem with words, I am clearly not getting across the essence of what I'm trying to communicate. You ask if something "might work" - but what does "work" even mean? You ask if something may facilitate mystical absorption, you know, "by going in for the empathy and compassion thing".

I in no way intend to suggest there is anything to "work" towards, and if anything I suggest our orientation should be thinking and asking if "going in for the" "mystical absorption" "thing" "may facilitate" "empathy and compassion", not vice versa. If I talk about "genuine mystical experience or insight", I do not mean in the hierarchical sense mystical experience is graded in RS, for eg., but the constraints of language and human mentality make it sound so. Stealing Um's metaphor, if the "mystical" can be equated with the nutrition with which we survive, then my claims about "genuine mystical experiences" are akin to claims about the sophistication of a particular cuisine - but not actually at all about the nutritional, essential, element. We're really just playing let's pretend, here, imo.

In truth, in MY "truth" to be precise, there is no experience or belief of anyone, ever, that isn't a most beautiful and perfect expression of the "mystical" or "divine", be they "faking it" or "genuine", criminal or Sant Satguru, atheist or believer. We are all merely different threads in the grand tapestry of reality. Anything I ever say, at the very most it can only be like one thread saying to another thread "purple, did you know?!". Ultimately, there is nothing you or I can do, no yoga we can practice, no "mystical absorption" we can experience, no guru or religion we can follow which will alter or effect that grand tapestry, your very existence and experience itself woven into that tapestry, and that is all. You are not adding or taking anything away from the canvas, and the canvas neither asks or requires anything from you. You don't like these ambiguous metaphors, but alas they are the only means to even attempt to communicate the ineffable!

So all talk of "genuine mystics" and "genuine mystical experiences" is ultimately a crock of shit that is sold by those who have spent inordinate amounts of time studying, practicing and experiencing a variety of consciousness altering technologies, and have developed a language of their own to differentiate that, which like the snow for which Eskimos or innuits have many dozens of different words, doesn't really need to be differentiated so much by the average person ;o)

Ultimately, ALL is "mystical" or "divine", and quite literally that is all. The rest is to do with the restlessness of the human mind. And there is literally no end to the infinite dualistic stories or concepts the mind can conjur up.

If you don't believe me, just ask Rebezar Tarz or Koot Hoomi. They know their shit.

So fake it till you make it, or don't. It's all good. Do whatever makes you feel good and happy, follow your bliss. That is all. If somebody is trying to sell you something else, examine the goods, and the seller, carefully.

If you wish to consider "faking it till you make it" to make "mystical absorption" "work", then perhaps RS and Gurinder is indeed the right path for you. There are decades old satsangis who frequently get up and ask Gugu to tell them how many sach khand points they get for doing x amount of seva; I'm not sure if his answers have ever satisfied anyone, but at least you'll be in good company :)

Hm, so what you’re suggesting, um, is that the mystical experience itself does not vary, what varies is the extant religious tradition within which that experience is shoehorned in. Interesting theory, that. Might well be true. (Or not! :---)) I’m not sure how accurate such a generalization, about similarity of what mystics experience, might be.)

In fact---to take a concrete example that actually fully supports your argument---look at Sufism. On the one hand Sufis without exception contextualize their experiences within Islam; but on the other hand, they also claim that their tradition predates Mohammed by millennia. They reconcile this apparent paradox by claiming that Sufi methods and experiences are timeless, and intrinsic to the human experience; and that the revelations to Mohammed, while bona fide, were merely the final/latest overt manifestation of such. That sounds like contortion, but how else fit within a very square hole a peg that is the opposite of square?

RSSB’s claims do sound similar-ish, I mean their apparent claim of tracing their lineage back to Zoroaster!

manjit, thanks for the detailed response.

Here’s some clarifications and observations and follow-on questions:

I’m afraid you seem to have totally misunderstood my intent in my asking you what I did. This isn’t about me, at all. My interest in this question, while sincere, is entirely impersonal, and no more (and no less!) than the equivalent of wanting to clarify some detail around Middle Earth lore! And the question itself directly follows from the discussion between um and Spence, that I’d commented on in a post addressed to you as well as um. I think that discussion of theirs, while interesting, was getting both confused and confusing, because they were conflating more than one issue and in the process speaking past each other. In an earlier post I’d recommended treating their discussion as three separate discussions on three separate questions, and spelt out those questions. The third of those questions, it further seemed to me, would admit of two sub-divisions; and it was that second sub-division of that third question that I was asking you for your views on, entirely impersonally.

I’ve gone to some length in clarifying this now, because you hadn’t really addressed the question itself at all, and the latter portion of your comment---while I agree with what you said there---was very much a non sequitur.

Let me try spelling this out one more time:
The “third question” was this: Is mysticism in general, and without getting bogged down in specific traditions, associated with empathy and compassion? We were in agreement that it is; that is, where there is mystical absorption---however defined!---there is usually a spontaneous expression of empathy and compassion. I was wondering if the reverse might apply, at all. Many religious and spiritual traditions do lay emphasis on “works”: is that mere happenstance, I was wondering, or might there be something to it after all, in your subjective view?

Here’s a futher fer-instance to make my meaning fully clear. Consider the question: Is mystical absorption associated with needing to sleep less? At one level the answer is “Yes”. That is, anecdotally at least, it is my observation, in myself as well as in others, that when you’re spending some hours in meditation, then it is usually the case that you need significantly less sleep. Now if I were asked, Does the reverse apply, and might sleeping less help with mystical absorption? My subjective answer to that question, should someone ask me that, would be “No”. On the other hand, it might well be that some specific traditions do tinker with lessening the time spent in sleep to facilitate their brand of absorption; and if that were indeed the case, and further if I myself were aware of such, then I’d present that qualification as well to my interlocutor.

Sorry, I’ve gone all long-winded over this, but I wanted to clarify my meaning and my intent, that you seemed to have misunderstood. As with that hypothetical sleep question, I was looking for your take on the question, Might focusing on works and indeed on empathy, as many traditions do, help at all with absorption, in your view, or is that all putting-the-cart-before-the-horse bullshit? Metta meditation for instance, to take a concrete example?


Those two gentlemen you brought up I hadn’t been familiar with: Rebezar Tarz and Fubbi Qantz! I’d heard of Scientology’s Xenu, and Kriya Yoga’s Babaji Maharaj (I’ve got a book, published by the Self Realization Fellowship, on that luminary’s life, in fact), and the Theosophy weirdness; and I’d heard, in general terms, of Eckankar as well; but not of this Rebezar Tarz and Fubbi Qantz business. Agreed, absolutely, RSSB’s invocation of Zoroaster does sound very similar to that kind of nonsense. (That is, if they were to limit themselves to Kabir, then I suppose there might be two sides to the argument, no matter which side ended up carrying the day; but trying to link RSSB to Zoroaster is clearly stretching things really really thin!)


Would you like to take a stab at discussing your subjective take on what might be the RSSB founder’s motives for making up the RSSB cosmology out of whole cloth? Delusion? Taking the rubes for a ride? Some bona fide experience? Or what?

(You can’t possibly know for sure, or provide any kind of authoritative answer, I realize that. Still, if you’d like to speculate, as well as discuss your reasons for your speculations, that would make for interesting reading.)


This thing that RSSB does, pretending that its lineage goes back way further than it actually does, when did this specific bit of charlatanry start, would you know? Have these tall tales always been part of the canon, right from the get go, or did some later “Master” get this bright idea to jazz up his product? (Again, I realize an authoritative answer is near-impossible, at least not off-the-cuff like this and without detailed research; so that any speculations you’d like to forward would be welcome.)


Finally: Your observation, that these celestial sound business was first formulated in Kashmir Shaivism, that's very interesting! I was under the impression that that derives from Tantra. It is a fact that Vajrayana practices do involve sounds and lights. (But the prescribed approach to these experiences there is to treat them as no different from, say, an itch in your crotch. All transitory, and all equally important, and equally unimportant --- and none to be clung on to, or flung away, simply observed with equanimity, if and when they arise, and passed on.)

I'm afraid I haven't studied Kashmir Shaivism, at all. (Heh, that reads so very pretentious, as if I've "studied" most other things! What I mean is, I know absolutely zero about Kashmir Shaivism---although the name itself is not unfamiliar---not even the little that I do know about some other traditions.)

Note to self: Must read up a bit on this beast. (Any links that you might have readily available would be appreciated. But please don't take the trouble to hunt stuff up. If searching is to be done, then no reason why I shouldn't try some google-fu hocus-pocus on this myself sometime.)

@ AR

Before I woke up in the theater, I would think about the things available on the "market", trying to understand them, giving them a place on one of the shelves of my mind.

These day I try to figure out the things for myself, trying to understand them as I want to understand them.

The advantage is that I need not to agree or disagree with anybody.

Now. back to the the religious stuff.

For a car to be a cat, it has to be a car.
So the human thing, is an self-preservation thing, that has the capacity to experience.
For a human to be human he has to be human.
So all humans are functional identical
The car is needed to drive from A to B.
Wherever that a and b is, whatever can be said about it has nothing to do with the car.
So the human thing experiences the same things in the same way, but, that said the way it can be discussed, etc is probably endless,
Digestion is the same for all, food has to be food in order to be food, but the ways it can be prepared and served are endles ... that makes life funny ... eating in all sorts of restaurants that serve their cultural food.

The same holds for meditation, the manipulation of the body/mind to realize an change, expansion of the field of awareness, consciousness.

No wise sufi, would state that to have these experiences he enjoys, the explanation of the islam is not needed at all ... as experience comes first and later the description and the attribution of meaning and value within a given culture .. it could cost him his head, the head which he so dearly needs to have the experience ... hahaha

If you have the stamina to go through the works of St John of the cross, you will find in between his poems and explanation how he manages to escape the wrath of the clerical authority always eager to label one an heretic.

All meditation practices are, nothing but a practice of ... sensory deprivation.
It is closely related to what happens to some people working at an conveyor belt; some part is fixated on the belt and the rest is free, free to come up with the most ingeneous ideas.

But ... the way meditation techniques can be discussed and are discussed, is an whole other affair.... that is all cultural, regional.

The great names of the past, where hardly recognized in their own tim and what is called their heritage has little to do with their practice. ...walk in a church when there is a service, see the ritual, the ceremony and you will understand.

So, IF ...IF there is a way to change, expand, perception, focus, attention, in the human body/mind, by necessity it must be the same and also the outcome..

Sitting together Ar having coffee, in order to communicate etc, we have to experience the same, we can argue and have different opinions on what is the best cup, coffee, how it has to be enjoyed, prepared etc etc we can even discuss the dangers of coffee but as soon as you start to call a cup other than a cup ... i will run for my life.

What I said a while ago about the regionality of practices, does not invalidate the practice but makes it for people of other cultures more difficult to use properly.




"There’s nothing like a high-dose trip on magic mushrooms, ketamine or 5-MeO-DMT to get one wondering about this thing we call “consciousness.”

What is it? Where is it? And why is it so hard to retain, explain and learn from the insights these drugs reveal once we return to our old patterns of thinking?

When we transcend our skin-encapsulated egos and connect in new ways to a power greater than ourselves, what is that force we perceive? Is it God, a delusion or something in between? Is this a “higher self” or a “true self” or is it all just a mental projection? Is this all inside our heads, or are we tuning into some cosmic reality?...


Words can only take us so far when we try to write about the ineffable.

So it was with all this in mind that I watched a preview of a wondrous new documentary film, Aware — Glimpses of Consciousness, by directors Frauke Sandig and Eric Black.

Not only do words fail. It’s notoriously difficult to visually depict a psychedelic state of mind on film. Sandig and Black do so in subtle but powerful ways. Not with cheesy special effects, but with mystical footage of the cosmic dance between sea and sky, forests and ferns, birds and bees, all over an evocative soundtrack that could be sampled to enliven any psychonaunt’s playlist."

"Boothby, the philosophy professor, called himself an atheist until he had a five-hour psilocybin session at Roland Griffiths’ lab Johns Hopkins. Now he has no trouble using the word “divine” when describing how he felt “the heartbeat of reality itself.”

Griffiths, whom I profile in my 2017 book Changing Our Minds — Psychedelic Sacraments and the New Psychotherapy, notes that meditation can slowly allow us to access a larger reality than our workaday ego-centric selves. “Psilocybin is the crash course,” he adds with a laugh."

"Griffiths notes that no matter how we get there, via meditation or psychedelics, the important thing is to change the way we treat each other and the natural world.

Sandig and Black agree.

“This is not just a case of ancient wisdom versus modern science,” they state in their directors’ statement. “Consciousness is political. Defining consciousness is the most invisible yet most powerful form of political control. The idea of separateness has turned the rest of our world – oceans, forests, animals, plants and other people and perhaps ourselves – into objects, leading to overwhelming crises, from racial mania and ethnic conflict to the exploitation of ‘natural resources’ and the climate catastrophe.”

All the recent advances in high-tech imagining, brain dissection, computer modeling and the other tools of neuroscience have raised as many questions as answers when it comes to understanding the true nature of human consciousness.

And that’s okay.

There is awe and wonder coming from all the “experts” interviewed in Aware, whether they are scientists or mystics. In the end, this is a hopeful film, and God knows we could all use some of that right now. "

@ manjit

I wonder whether it matters what it is, and whether it is true etc.
I drink coffee, because I like it, I do not advise anybody to drink it

Nobody needs to climb the mnt everest.

Nonsense to suggest the mountain was created for that reason and the purose of life is to climb it.

Those who climb it have an exstatic experience,... fine for them .. but who cares?!

We all own our life. withou having a clue what it is how it was generated , what is the purpose and where it leads to.

Since we have written history .. we are bombarded wit stories, tales and so called scientific theories, that wrangle among themselves to be accepted as the sole truth.

Getting lost in that quagmire of words, the very pleasure of life might get lost.

To drink a cup of coffee, none of these things have to be believe, lived by, studied, understood.

If one of these tales, theories etc makes for an happy living, it is alright, its jou by itself is not a proof and it need not.

Our liveliness, consciousness, etc is ours to be used, we and nobody else arte resposible for what we do with it no master, no children, no spouse, no trump, nobody matters.

Stop asking others how to live, ask yourself!!

manjit, I'd written a long-ish post in response to your detailed post addressed to me, right after I addressed um up there. Got swallowed up in the maws of Blog Khand, apparently. Haven't the time right now, but if that post doesn't show up then I'll try to rewrite what I'd said there. Cheers.

Hahahaha AR ... I am glad not to be alone with those black holes in Blog Khand

Hi AR - it appears the Gods of Blog Khand have allowed your post to pass........surely ye are blessed....;)

You ask "The “third question” was this: Is mysticism in general, and without getting bogged down in specific traditions, associated with empathy and compassion?............. I was wondering if the reverse might apply, at all. Many religious and spiritual traditions do lay emphasis on “works”: is that mere happenstance, I was wondering, or might there be something to it after all, in your subjective view?"

I've mentioned to you before I like to communicate about these highly complex, multi-layered, fractally connected issues with metaphors, hints and paradoxes. That is because a metaphor or paradox can contain within them ab incredible quantity of complex, often conflicting, information, and express these complex ideas within a relatively short or simple story. You prefer, however, things to be more "rational", logical, linear....when what is being discussed is none of those things!

That said, the simple answer to your question is YES, of course. But for this I make numerous assumptions about your own individual definitions of certain concepts, your motivation (you state this is not personal for you, but I was hinting that your question IS profoundly personal, because you are asking what may "work", when the impersonal universe is not asking any "work" from you, or humans in general. It is certain humans that feel the need for investigating the universe, investigating consciousness, for mystical absorption etc - do you see? There is an implicitly human set of values in your question, and it is impossible to separate the personal from it) This is kind of what my previous posts were hinting at; if EVERYTHING is "mystical" or "divine", then precisely what are we working towards here? How can "faking" love and compassion NOT be "mystical" or "divine" within this context or understanding, let alone having some kind of "deeper" or more "genuine" love? If we say the "mystical experience" leads to increased empathy and compassion, then surely increased empathy and compassion leads to "mystical experience", because love and compassion IS "mystical experience". This is a bit like the duality of science struggling to come to terms with the neither/and/or/both wave/particle structure of light.......do you get a sense of the futility of our human, linear, time-bound language in addressing these non-linear, non-dual realities yet?

But - I almost hesitate to say it - of course what you are asking has been the subject of Indian philosophy for centuries........and India has answered with precisely the kind of logical, rational answers you prefer; countless types of "yoga" which can reconnect one with the divine - if that is what the purpose of "mysticism" is, in general - included in which are karma yoga, which is essentially the "practice" of action and service. I guess such kind of obviously famous and well known practices that have existed for millennia CAN go under the radar on a blog that is about a religion which claims ALL other yogas than it's own are "lower region" yogas of the "negative power", and not only remains in blissful ignorance of the real history and evolution of mysticism throughout India (let alone the world), but also imagines iron and gold chains to be sum total of mysticism, worldwide and for all times :)

"Karma yoga (Sanskrit: कर्म योग), also called Karma marga, is one of the three classical spiritual paths in Hinduism, one based on the "yoga of action", [1] the others being Jnana yoga (path of knowledge) and Bhakti yoga (path of loving devotion to a personal god).[2][3][4] To a karma yogi, right action is a form of prayer.[5] The three paths are not mutually exclusive in Hinduism, but the relative emphasis between Karma yoga, Jnana yoga and Bhakti yoga varies by the individual.[6]

Of the classical paths to spiritual liberation in Hinduism, karma yoga is the path of unselfish action.[5][7] It teaches that a spiritual seeker should act according to dharma, without being attached to the fruits or personal consequences. Karma Yoga, states the Bhagavad Gita, purifies the mind. It leads one to consider dharma of work, and the work according to one's dharma, doing god's work and in that sense becoming and being "like unto god Krishna" in every moment of one's life.[5]"

Does this answer your question? If you're asking for my personal opinion, I think reality is infinitely complex and full of infinite often unforeseen possibility. There is absolutely no limit on the "divine", or how or where it can be encountered. It is essentially a game of hide and seek with your own self.

I personally consider "metta meditation", or even better some highly personalised and authentic version of it, to be the most powerful spiritual technology known to man.

Even very high doses of psychedelics come a distant second.

In fact scrap that. If you aren't adept at metta meditation, don't bother with psychedelics. They will tear you - your ego - apart. I know for this for an absolute fact - RS meditation, 5 word simran and initiation etc is absolutely useless, and demons will come for you if there is no real love and compassion present; on the other hand, a simple atheist with a pure and honest heart will be held in the lap of God without a single question asked.

But it sounds to easy, too lame with not enough pay off - metta meditation? Sending love and goodwill to all sentient beings? Whaaaat? Where's my Shabda-Amrit Mojitos in Sach Khand?! There ain't no spirituality in town unless there's a light and sound show! (just ask these folks https://www.amazon.co.uk/HOLY-HELL-Will-Allen/dp/B01KOZLR4S :)

Amateurs :)

You ask "Would you like to take a stab at discussing your subjective take on what might be the RSSB founder’s motives for making up the RSSB cosmology out of whole cloth? Delusion? Taking the rubes for a ride? Some bona fide experience? Or what?"

It's really not at all like that - we, today, have the benefit of hindsight, the internet, lots more translations etc etc And nobody is at all suggesting he made it up out of whole cloth - it is an "evolution" of prior beliefs and practices, and that has EVER been the case with all philosophies and religions, they evolve and change and adapt to the geo-cultural context of the time. Factor into that simple ego-centricity, an over-willingness to believe one's own bullshit, charisma etc etc etc - again, infinite factors - another religious group is born in India, and just one of probably millions. There is absolutely nothing unique about the story in context of India. I think it near absolutely certain Soamiji had very intense, dualistic visionary experiences - but what does "bona fide" mean? I'm pretty sure I could teach somebody to have similar experiences, if not immediately with psychedelics, than using meditative or yogic technologies over a period of a few months. The story of the birth of religions is very often more than the story of just somebody having mystical experiences, which is not so unusual or rare as it is made to seem by those who make a commodity of it, it is more often the story of very worldly people who consider themselves missionaries who organise structures of hierarchical power and control around such experiences.

You ask "This thing that RSSB does, pretending that its lineage goes back way further than it actually does, when did this specific bit of charlatanry start, would you know?"

Again, it is not charlatanry - it is just them being mistaken, wrong, and it just so happens that in this instance, their error is a fundamentally fatal one for the integrity of their doctrine. This is just incidental fact. This is the beauty of time - it very often reveals to us the errors of our past beliefs as a collective. The amount of grace, honesty or integrity with which one faces those challenges is another question (I, personally, absolutely love to be wrong, surprised, mistaken. Beautiful. Magical. Opportunity for growth. Alas such moments of inspiration tend to be lacking in my online debates with Radhasoami related posters :).

Re. Kashmiri Shaivism, the 2 following books are absolutely beautiful and amongst the best traditional books on eastern metaphysics I have ever read.



And here's his blog:


One of the greatest meditation texts ever written on the Indian subcontinent:


Hope that helps!

O Supreme Lord, in spite of everything that I have heard,
even today my doubts are not dispelled. What is your
reality, O Divine One? Are you the power or energy
contained in sound from which all the mantras have

Can your reality be perceived through the nine different
ways by which one can enter the realm of higher
consciousness, as enumerated in Bhairava Agama? Is it
different from the procedure in Trishira Bhairava Tantra?
Or can it be perceived through knowledge of the triple
forms of shakti, ie. para, parapara and apara? These are my
doubts, O Bhairava!

Is it nada and bindu or can it be known by concentrating on
the ascending psychic centres or the unstruck sound which
emanates without any vibration? Or is it the form of the
obstructing half moon or else is it the form of shakti?

(Is your reality) transcendent and immanent or is it
completely immanent or completely transcendental? If it is
immanent (then the very) nature of transcendence is

Paratva, or transcendence, cannot exist in the divisions of
varna (colour), shabda (sound) or roopa (form). If
transcendence is indivisible, then it cannot be defined or co-
exist with composite parts.

O Lord, be pleased to destroy all my doubts completely.
Then Bhairava says: Good, well spoken, O dear one! What
you have asked about is the essence of tantra.

Noble lady, although this is the most secret part of the
tantras, yet I will speak to you about what has been
expounded regarding the (defined) forms of Bhairava.

O Devi, the sakara aspect of Bhairava is insubstantial and of
no spiritual value, like the illusory dream-like web of Indra,
and is also like the delusion of celestial musicians.

(The sakara sadhanas) are described for those people of
deluded intellect, who are prey to distracted thought
patterns or are inclined towards the performance of action
and ostentatious rituals to traverse the path of meditation.

In reality (the essence) of Bhairava is not the nine forms, nor
the garland of letters, nor the three flows and not even the
three powers of shakti.

His (Bhairava's) form (cannot be perceived) in nada and
bindu nor even in the obstructed half moon, nor in the
piercing of successive chakras, nor docs shakti, or energy,
constitute his essence.

These things have been told (about the form of Bhairava),
like the tales used to frighten children, to induce people of
immature intellect to follow the spiritual path, just as the
mother entices her child with sweets.

Ultimately (that state of bhairava) cannot be measured in
terms of time, space or direction, nor can it be indicated by
any attribute or designation.

One can have this inner experience for oneself when the
mind is free from modifications or thought patterns. The
atman of bhairava, which is known as bhairavi, is then
experienced as the bliss of one's own inner awareness, a
state whose form is fullness, free from all contradictions
(which is the abode of the entire universe).

~Vijnanabhairava Tantra

“life-denying, connection-despising, medieval Indian neo-gnostic doctrine of karma, reincarnation and "sach khand" as being detached from the rest of sentient life, and the hyper-ego-centric desire of personal liberation” - F’A - gotta be a Manjit quote!
Given that it’s such a terrible path why did we all get so sucked in? (Cool pun eh?)
However these days I would pretty much agree with what Manjit says particularly in regard to the dogma.
Cure - Amrit Mojitos- now there’s something to savour!
To me the RSSB focus on getting ‘out of this place’, definitely contributes to the apparent lack of action (observed by myself historically) of followers when it comes to putting ‘plants in the ground’ and practicing ‘compassionate action’ in the ‘real’ world. But then again some do - as AR says it’s the innate nature of some people. There are some folk in the world who are just plain old ‘good’ - kind, empathetic, socially engaged, helpful, trustworthy ….saintly, with no need for religion . This is not just the outcome of mystical experience. However, I’m with you and it’s my opinion that any mystical experience worth its salt would surely translate into action that is genuinely caring, helpful, broad ranging, integrated and operating in the here and now. As you have just said - love and compassion is mystical experience.
Now milling over how I currently think about RSSB in light of your earlier comment Manjit, it’s become more of a dual scenario - either Sant Mat is way out there and the real McCoy - head and shoulders above the rest (as I once thought), or it is essentially incorrect/incomplete/another step on the journey. I’ll defer comment on the latter, though generally would no longer agree with the former. Like you, I’m of the view that mystical experience (mystical being a term for the normal state that we are but keep forgetting?) is more about connection than disconnection and being aware ‘here and now’ rather than some eternal home to strive for. In Sant Mat maybe this (connection/being always here and now with what is) is the outcome of full surrendering to the ‘inner master’ or the result of decades of many hours of meditation each day - …..don’t know. In regards to Sant Mat being only 300 yrs old, I guess it’s about how the words/interpretation of ‘the way to truth’, has been utilised. Is it about some sort of superior belief? I.e. I always used to view SM as a general term for the name of a true path (always there in some form) available to truth seekers.
Presently it seems to me that there are very similar ‘mystical’ states accessed through both meditation, plant medicine and deep ecological immersion - commonalities include lessening of ‘disconnection’ and expansion of self (I prefer this to loss of self). That’s why I continue to consider soul to be a problematic term. The idea that it’s something separate is common to religions both East and West. Growing up with this notion of a ‘special but separated from God’ part of me was never challenged. Most folk just believed this to be the case and many still do. I believe awakening changes this view.

Um - I think I’m starting to see your point of view a bit better. You have recently lost a close friend? Me too, he was very very dear, a mentor and the person who introduced me to RSSB.
AR - re Kashmir Shaivism - a few years back Manjit told us about The Recognition Sutras by Chris Wallis - this is an amazing book. Very readable and although about a tradition, is integrated in it’s approach, though not for the faint hearted imo.
Sonia - hope you are doing OK and I liked what you recently said: ‘If you can overcome your fear of death while embracing the unknown then you’ve accomplished a lot’. Pretty deep and sums up what I think many of us are about.
PS - another couple of cool posts Manjit.

@ Tim Rimmer

>>You have recently lost a close friend? Me too, he was very very dear, a mentor and the person who introduced me to RSSB.<<

Yes. We were as far as presence is concerned towards the world, family and the unknown or unnameable, as spiritual, one egg, twins although we had different characters and were different seen and appreciated by the world.

It has always been difficult for us to share our worldview with others, only those very close to us, could swallow it but they who could, were without exception "great" people. So we loved to be alone and together and for that reason it was a great pleasure to do all sorts of things during decades for the community, we left behind shortly after 1990 after having had one of the most uplifting days.

He was kind of touching stone for me ... it has been a great pleasure to be together in this life.

manjit, thanks for that response. A great deal of food for thought, packed there within that single post of yours!


I take your point about the limitations of “linear” narratives, but it’s a bit like democracy, right? Lacking in many ways, but the best we’ve got? Because the other forms of communication might telegraph a great deal of information within a short packet, but you never know if what you’ve telegraphed has actually been communicated. Even when the one reading you or listening to you gives you a deep mysterious look reflecting the depth and mystery in your own, who knows that the trip they’re on isn’t something wholly different than what you’d had in mind?

Perhaps what might be best is an admixture of both, to make for clarity, as well as (shortcut to) depth? And never, ever, without a robust feedback mechanism, to ensure that what’s sought to be communicated is actually what’s gotten communicated! (So that doing the deep-mystical-poetry thing in one-way communication, as in books where the reader isn’t expected to interact with the author, is probably not a great idea. Even if the other way takes way longer!)


Thanks for your clear take on that question of mine.

While I agree with like nine-tenths, or maybe like nineteen-twentieths, of what you’ve said about this; but there’s one part of it, one nuance more like, that I don’t find myself quite in agreement with.

But I’ll let it go for now. Talking about it will inevitably spiral us off into an involved and potentially lengthy exchange. Not that there’s anything wrong with spiral and long, in fact it’s more often fun than not! Just, I guess, not important, really, at this point, so I’ll just let that be.


I appreciate your reasons for your opinion that often enough being wrong is different, in the context of what we were discussing here (RSSB’s claims about its lineage, and its founder’s description of the grand cosmology), than being outright deluded or outright dishonest.

Except for one thing. That’s when some dude claims he’s the fountainhead of everything, or even when he silently acquiesces to others’ claim of such on his behalf. You see what I’m saying? Abstract claims are one thing, even personal claims in the third- and second-person, those might well apply, as far as what you’ve said there. But when direct first-person claims are made, about oneself and by oneself---or about oneself and by others but acquiesced to by oneself---then as far as such personal claims, as well as other claims that are related to that personal claim, I’m afraid I see no fuzzy gaps there at all.

There was this old post of Brian’s, where he writes about Jesus being one of four (of whatever number) of ‘L’s: legend, liar, lunatic, …I forget the details, but the details aren’t important. Point being, your RSSB founder is either what he claimed he was, or he wasn’t. If the former, and to our satisfaction, then all hail. But if the latter, then he’s either deluded or dishonest, right?


Thanks very much for that link to Christopher Wallis’s website! Absolute treasure trove!

Just watched that vid he’s put out there, where he reads out the portion of that ‘virgin’ manuscript he’s working on, translating. Nice! And the collection of stuff he’s got there, video as well as text, it looks like full-on treat.

I’ve bookmarked the site, and I look forward to going through the stuff there (assuming what all’s actually there lives up to the promise of what all seems to be there---as I’ve no reason really to doubt it will).


Funny thing about the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra. That’s a text I’m actually not unfamiliar with. In fact I’ve read, and in fact own, three books on it, one’s by Osho (Osho Rajneesh, that is), one by the Munger School of Yoga people, and the third I don’t remember whose; and I’ve no doubt the provenance of the book would’ve been mentioned in full detail in all three; but somehow I hadn’t known/registered the fact that this is actually part of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition. (Or if I had, then I'd clean forgotten all about it.)

Shows how little one actually knows even about the things that one believes one knows something about! *rueful smile*

Yep, I’m looking forward to exploring that guy’s website some more.

Hey, Tim.

Yes, Christopher Wallis looks solid on Kashmir Shaivism. I'd just been browsing his website, that manjit linked to upthread, and there's lots of great stuff there. Videos, essays, a course thing he's got going, and links to his books as well.

You're right, Tantra (Kashmir or otherwise) is most certainly, as you say, not for the faint-hearted! (Not if one intends to do more than merely read about it :--))

um, this "waking up in the cinema" thing you sometimes mention---and I know we've touched on it once or twice, briefly---It's, well, when you think about it it's kind of remarkable, no? Especially in terms of how its effects on you seem to have been so ...well, so lasting?

Have you actually, you know, tried to figure out what that was about, exactly?

I'm curious to know a bit more, if you're willing to talk about it.

@ AR

< Have you actually, you know, tried to figure out what that was about, exactly?<

Actual I just do not know what an how to answer.

It has something to do with losing meaning, longing for things outside myself. In the bible there is that story that someone approaches christ, saying, Rabbi, here is your mother. He replies with asking who is my mother?! This answer speaks of 2 different worlds. In one world "mother" has meaning, the same as being lost in a book or in a movie and in the other world, that meaning has lost, the contact has been broken, the involvement of being lost in the stream of the movie is ended.

Most people are caught in a movie, and being caught they can and will kill for what is dear to them or been killed. Just to make a point about what it means to be caught.

It is the world of denotative meaning and the world of connotative meaning

It is also about the world of adjectives and the world where they are not.

The process is not ended I feel and the "man" that was once lost in the movie does not give in easily in and when he protests my life is miserable and I use to quiet him down by going for a walk in the woods ... and ... have somewhere a cup of coffee.

It is not that pleasant a situation as I do miss my dear friend who walked the same path with we, now I am all alone. Sometimes people say I know all these things you talk about, I have passed that station years ago ....I know that they are still lost in the movie and I do not know how to make it clear to them, that what looks the same, is not the same and accept that they will see me as arrogant, ignorant or whatever. for that reason. They are like the actors that speak to me from the screen ... hahaha

They might be right, it doesn't matter and I do not care.

This is difficult writing AR, very difficult .... I need coffee ... hahaha

Actually there is nothing to be said and writing this the thought arises what is written in the teachings of Don Juan, about impeccability, doing the simple things of life one always has done as good as one can. That is not an easy thing, but the only thing to hold on.

Hey All,……putting aside Politics, Covid, and anger for a moment, ……here is some thing that happened to me this afternoon that I posted on Facebook. It happened at Walmart, of all places, the Store where all the weird Characters are made fun of. But to me, this experience was off the Charts !

I just had a very embarressing moment! I will share it here, because who else would ever know or care? I just got back from grocery shopping at Walmart, and feel real guilty about what happened, but my wife told me not to ruin the Gift by trying to undue it. So, the very least I can do is post it here. Any way, I had a sizeable volume of items at check out, placed on the counter, including batteries, 5 quarts of Multigrade Mobil One oil, Plus other stuff. I was masked, and impatient to get out of there, as a Lady ahead of me had dozens of Coupons that I thought would never get counted. Then, the Check Out Gal disappeared for 5 minutes, before returning. Some one had forgotten one of their bags she was trying to catch, but no luck. Mean while, a Lady not dressed very well, looking to be in her mid 60s arrived behind me with 2 heavy boxes of Insure, and dropped them on the counter. She had a younger Male with her who looked like a Gang member, with tattoos! Neither were masked. I reached for my wallet to put my Visa card in the Card Reader, but no wallet! Panic! I had forgotten it at home. I reached for my Cell phone to call Ann so I could get my Visa Number, but no Cell phone either! I had forgotten that too. I was now having a real Senior moment day !!! I asked the Check out Gal if she could bag the stuff, and hold it while I ran back home and would be right back. She said no, I’d have to put every thing back in my cart, and they would return the perishables right back. Now comes the Punch line. The poorly dressed unmasked Lady behind me with her Gang Member looking companion told the Check out Gal.,,,,, “PAY IT FOWARD.” Check him out on me. I’ll pay. “ I didn’t know what that meant, but I guess it’s some kind of program where we do the same to any future person in the same situation I was in. I asked the kind Lady to give me her address so I could send her a check, but she refused to give me her Name or address, and kept saying to just Pay It Forward to any one in the future I could help in the same situation. I really felt embarressed, and tne guy with her said ,…..”Hey Dude, don’t keep beating your self up about this, as we all have these kind of days”. I would have given her a hug, but I was masked, and they were not. I am the kind of Guy that hates to owe any thing unpaid to any one, but can’t ever pay this Lady back. She looked like she even may have been on Food Stamps!! Oh well,……..the only relief I have, other than my free groceries, is knowing that Lady just balenced a lot of her Karma.

I understand, um, how it might not be easy, as you say, to put into words such a deeply personal experience.


Three questions arise, um, when I hear you. Please answer them only to the extent you’re comfortable delving into this, and feel free to leave any of them, or all of them, unanswered, if you’re not comfortable discussing this in such detail.

(1) This …this fading away of the fever of achievement, and of doing things, and of even finding out things, does this extend to things fully material as well, the everyday stuff that is?

(2) Did that …epiphany, if I may call it that, follow on some particular kind of spiritual discipline you were engaged in, or was it entirely spontaneous and sudden?

(3) Did you seek the advice of others about how best to deal with this? I don’t know, secular medical specialists; or else maybe people knowledgeable in things spiritual, that you might personally trust, people like that? Or are you simply dealing with this all by yourself?

What I’m saying is, something clearly happened. I’m not at all clear what. (Words like “ego dissolved”, et cetera, pop up; but I guess they’re empty words, in that they don’t really explain anything, plus at the end of the day they’re unsupported unevidenced clichés.) Have you yourself any idea what it is that might have actually happened to you in there, the thing underlying the symptoms? Or is figuring that out yet another of those things that you no longer find yourself drawn to?

manjit, if you're still around:
I'm enjoying browsing around Wallis/Harreesh's website. It's littered with all kinds of original papers and articles---and video clips, talks---and I'm enjoying pottering around sampling bits and pieces of what he's got in there.


Incidentally, it seems Kashmir Shaivism isn't quite a separate beast, but merely one of the many schools of Tantra. (Well of course, in a way nor is Vajrayana "a separate beast" --- except I guess it is, too, given its essentially different focus to all of these things that come under its purview.)

He's also got some interesting ideas about the historicity of how Hinduism developed, that he's outlined in one of his papers, which, while I don't know if it's an iconoclastic view, but at least it is one I myself wasn't familiar with.

Anyhoo... great site, thanks again for the reference.

@ AR
My confession ... hahaha ...and asking to be forgiven

ad [1] It started out met material things, at the outskirts of the castle so to say. Then slowly id came closer and closer. Having noticed this process, fear arose that it would affect other things. The process went on and on an due to its pace I have had the time to adjust.

ad[2] That is not completely clear to me. Something definitely happened. Whether it can be labeled with the word you use I just do not know. My dear friend and I were jostled into a situation that for something of a week we were in the same building as he was and there are no words to describe the pleasure of that bubble. At then he shook hands with the both of us that left an deep impression. Nobody could have imagined that this handshake turned out an farewell.

ad[3] No and that is not possible either. The only one that could discuss these things with me has passed away. In the past I have tried what ever I could and go through all these things you wrote.

And about the rest ... the best answer to make it understandable to you and others, speaking the same language of this world is ... the feeling that results from all of an sudden being withdrawn from an being involved in..... It also resembles something that surgeons must have in order to concentrate properly, not being emotionally involved, in the person on the table, in his work and himself. That doesn't make him a robot ... do read that trice!!

I am back at the point where I stared my life and where I started to ask for initiation. I have spend in vain years and years finding the keys back i lost at home. Asking many people that passed by to help me finding those keys. With pleasure and great respect and thankfullness I remind them, giving me compagny for to many years ... but ... it did not bring the keys back not even the association with, the Mnt. Fuji of this world.

Probably there is something wrong with me putting these things here because after finishing the typing, the coffee cup is still standing here as a silent witness. = it doesn't matter what I write

That doesn't really address what I'd asked, um, but cool. I wouldn't want to pry beyond your level of comfort.


As far as this: "That is not completely clear to me. Something definitely happened. Whether it can be labeled with the word you use I just do not know." ---What I'd meant was, were you engaged in some kind of course of mediation or whatever at that time that might have triggered that thing, or was that wholly spontaneous?


Also --- and absolutely no offense intended when I make this suggestion! --- but when something psychological seems to be unfolding that's very different from what went before, then it might be a good idea to consult a psychiatrist, before ruling out depression. Depression sometimes comes in all kinds of flavors, and not always recognized as such by those who've been hit by it.

Again, I'm not suggesting that's what it actually is, only that it *might*, just conceivably. And if at all this is affecting your quality of life, then it might be treatable. (Of course if it is a beneficient thing, in sum, something that enriches your life by letting you cut off unnecessary things from your life, then that's great, and there's no call to try to fix what ain't broken!)

@ AR
In session 73 of [email protected] somebody asked me to listen to there was a rather strange remark. Strange because I do not understand how the remark is relate to the topic at hand, nor the remark it self. It is one of those things I have come across the whole of my life... I understand the concepts use but the arranging of them is a mystery.

He said something like:
"if a person is strong, the lord himself will come and ask him what he wants"

This is exactly what happened to my friend and what brought an end to being his spiritual twin. He heard a voice asking him that question. The rest needs not to be told. And ... yes he was mentally terrible strong and afraid of nothing that would appear before him having inner experiences.

He could have answered that question ... if he had had enough coffee ... but alas.

It remains a strange remark.

@ AR
Prof Assagioli, the man behind Psycho-syntheses, stated that the spiritual development of a person can be accompanied by the same symptoms as some mental disorders. He goes on to say that unfortunately, the ordinary psychiatrist is not trained to see the difference.

The psychiatrist I consulted, years ago, at the end stated, I am sorry you have a spiritual problem and I do not know what to do with it.

Yes, from the world, what I go through could be labeled as severe depression.
It could also be named in terms of St John of the cross, the dark night of the soul.
You will not do it and you are right if you don't as the style of writing makes his words like stone in the stomac, but he describes all these mental states.

To end ... yes what ever I have ever written here and said can as well be an exagerated exposition of an neurotic depression.

Ar ... so be it.

Hi Tim - great, thoughtful post, thanks!

You are right, the lingering thought or remote possibility in the mind of many ever-increasingly sceptical RS followers will always be that, maybe, just maybe, RS is as you say "heads and shoulders above the rest". That is the nature of the mind and the infinite, looped, circular conceptual narratives it can weave. Imo a perfect example of this is the reductionist, materialist, atheist, "rational" view of reality that Brian advocates. Reality is not a narrative imo.

Whilst for me, personally, it is abundantly clear and obvious the RS narrative is no more or less "true" or the exclusive "path to the true God" than the religious narrative of Christianity, Islam or Sikhism, for example (once you know how a trick is done, one is no longer confused and amazed by it), I always get a bit of a chuckle from the idea that not only must one be lucky or smart enough to recognise the one true path in the entire multiverse (despite its inextricability from the geo-cultural-linguistic specificity of North India circa 1500-1900), but that one must ALSO pick the ONE, TRUE guru out of the 1,001 RS/Santmat gurus on the planet today (Anurag Sagar, that book misattributed to Kabir in "Santmant" circles, and essentially the real, secret Bible of the religion, in addition to containing absolutely bat-shit crazy, revelation type visions, more akin to the very bad Ayahuasca journey of a novice than reflective of a deeper, mystical "Unitary consciousness" of an experienced mystic, also regales us with tales of many different false and evil gurus pretending to teach the same path - as the geo-political context of this terrible text is lost to satsangis today, they just read it as the "gospel truth", so to speak. Upshot being, there is only one true guru and the rest are agents of Kal. This isn't me making things up, this is literally RS/Santmat doctrine.....this, of course, I very, very strongly suggest wasn't a view shared by Nanak or Kabir, let alone Rumi).

To cap this off, to then accept the guru with millions of overtly religious minded followers, factually obscenely wealthy (krodh, anybody? Anybody at all?), and almost certainly involved in fraud to get there IS that one true guru out of the hundreds/thousands who teach "Santmat"?........Surely this must be beginning to stretch credulity of even the most credulous? ;)

But honestly, each to their own. We're just shooting the breeze here, aren't we?

Hi Jim - lovely story, thanks for sharing! Just goes to show, we shouldn't judge people by their appearance.

Pay it forward = do an act of kindness for somebody when they need help, and you are in a position to provide it.

Kindness is the new cool :)

Hi Um - sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. I obviously didn't pick up on that originally, possessed as I was of my own thoughts and points, my apologies.

Hi Appreciative Reader! You ask "manjit, if you're still around"

Alas, I am :) Having recently become unemployed, the devil is making use of my idol hands and I have spent inordinate amount of time online. I expect to find a new job fairly soon, or I might enter Mad Max territory in my search for food and fuel (actually, it's already like that here in the UK!! :). Though my current job-search strategy has essentially just been to come online and eviscerate the RS dogma thoroughly until Anami Purush relents and places a job in my lap. I received half a dozen calls or emails this morning, I must be doing something right!! :D

No worries re the Hareesh blog - curiously, I suppose, I haven't really looked at that site, or seen any video of him etc. I read a few articles on there a few years ago, tremendous stuff......but not really where my interests lie these days. I'm sure I will get to it one day, I have it bookmarked!

I posted a long reply in the disillusioned satsangi thread that appears to have got chewed up, hopefully Brian will find and post it in his spam folder, but here's a nice article that maybe somewhat relevant:


@ Manjit.

Please do not worry, that it escaped your attention.

@ AR finally

as a cherry on the cake

I just remembered that Prof. B, sitting next to Huzur, could no longer hold his stamina being frustrated about people like me exclaimed to the great amusement of the brothers and the sisters ... He himself is a case for a psychiatrist ... I can still hear the roar of laughter.

So you are in good compagny.

Personally I liked the dear Professor very much, it was a kind, highly educated man and feel sorry that I made his life miserable unintentionaly

Again, um, I hope you don't mind my having brought up the depression angle. I'm not suggesting that is what it is, I just thought I'd alert you to the possibility --- in case you hadn't considered it already --- because losing interest in things is one of its symptoms.

It's like Covid. If you run a temperature, then there is a possibility that it's the corona virus --- but of course, nine times out of ten, maybe ninety-nine times out of hundred, it's going to be something else altogether.

That's all I'd meant, and the suggestion was made out of goodwill, nothing else --- just in case you hadn't considered the possibility.


I didn't get the last part of your comment: Why was the professor dude sitting next to "Huzur" (that would be Charan Singh, right?) upset with you?


Incidentally, it's very clear from your posts that you deeply miss your friend. How long ago was it, that he passed? My condolences.

Hey, manjit.

That Psych Today article on skepticism that you referenced in your comment, I'm not clear of the context for it, but the article itself seems clear enough and entirely unexceptionable. Agreed with all of that, absolutely.

And good luck with the job thing!

@ AR

Just look at a couple of Q & A of the sitting master and his uncle and what is put before them and how and ask youself f you would been sitting there if you could uphold your composture. ... what you see has fore them gone on for years, day in day out.
Just focus on the psychological, human aspect .. forget the rest.

As far as depression is concerned consider this: Language, concepts meaning etc are all things of an community. It is a deep rooted human need to be convinced that there are others with whom they can share the same worldview. Reason why starting smokers, drinkers and druggers, do their best to convince other to do the same as that would make what they do more normal. Those who do not believe what they say to believe, do the same.

Please do remeber what I often wrote
Things are what they are,
seldom what they appear to be
let alone how they are presented by interested individuals.

Here comes the role of the master, the teacher, by conversing with him one can verify what one is doing, based upon trust in that teacher. If such an avenue is closed for reasons not understood, one is one oneself.

You did put something on the table, as a "gift". I can pick it up and own it. I also can leave it there and resist the invitation, to see things that way.

He pasted away in may after an horrible 14 days, with a divine smile on his face, the moments the pain was less.

He and I came from a background were we had to learn nonverbal communication. That training gave us the capacity to read in between the lines of life ...to know one who has the same capacity is a privilege .... It is like the language that deaf people use.... that language creates another dimension as emotions etc are communicated in a complete different way.

Loss at someone's passing, someone we hold truly dear ... other people try to soften the blow by resorting to cliches, invoking religion, or the alleged healing qualities of time, or such other drivel, but the fact is that what is gone is gone, except to the extent we continue to hold it/them within us. Such is existence.

@ AR

People do not die, they are no longer here to interact with, like a child that goes to school, leaves his parents and turns home a couple of hours later. In the meanwhile the parents go on with their lives.

Devotion, surrender, losing identity
In that culture bhakti yoga was born.
Go to an western concerthall where they also play classical music and see the difference.

Could this possible be true?:


"So let me be crystal clear here. There is but one defining factor of psychedelics, and only one. A psychedelic is an agent or preparation that can promote a mystical experience.....................This experience frequently revolutionizes people’s lives, generating a cascade of more life-imbuing attitude and behavior."

"Mystical experiences have been very well described in both religious and non-religious settings throughout human history, and involve common factors. In the mystical experience, the apprehension of one’s personal self dissolves into a wholly consuming universality, dissolution into an ocean of pure existence, unfettered by identity, description or ideation. The self as we typically know it is wiped away, replaced by boundless energy and joy, often accompanied by a vision of brilliant, dazzling light, transcendence of time, overwhelming love and a profound compassion for all beings. Existence itself is experienced as limitless energy, suffused with bliss. To some, this idea sounds frightening. Losing oneself entirely to an experience of pure existence can seem a scary proposition. But for many who have enjoyed such a mystical experience with the aid of psychedelics, the event has been one of immense positive impact on their lives.

This experience of dwelling in pure energy is consistent with physics, which long ago figured out that all existence is energy, atoms and subatomic particles, flying around yet other smaller particles of energy, ad infinitum. And as I will describe further on, the mystical experience provides the greatest healing for a human being. It is the jewel in the lotus of holistic healing.

Mystical experience is not religion. This also confuses many. A religion by definition has a doctrine. There is no doctrine of any sort to a mystical experience. You do not need to believe any particular thing or subscribe to any notions. Ideas are not the experience. Words are not the thing. The map is not the territory. Religions invariably involve deities of various sorts, while mystical experience is a deity-free land. Religions involve isms, ologies and osophies, always associated with a charismatic leader. Mystical experience requires none of those trappings. In a mystical experience one is delivered to a sense of pure, ecstatic spiritual being, beyond notions of any kind. The totality of our energetic being is our spirit, the unique animating force of all life. Many people name this god or assign the identity of a deity to this. But that is a choice and not the essence of the thing. It is only after we have been blown to pieces by mystical experience that we set about to define and fashion that experience in words and ideas.

The plot thickens a bit when intense mystical experiences involve deities or are delivered via a practice like Santo Daime or The Native American Church. Some people encounter Jesus or Mary or Kali or Aphrodite, Buddha, Our Lady Of Guadalupe, Maitreya and various prophets and spiritual figures. In some cases these experiences take place in contextual settings such as Christian or Buddhist venues, archaic goddess ceremonies, etc. In some cases, iconic figures spontaneously show up. Lama Kazi Dawa Samdup quoted that “all circumstances arise from a concatenation of causes.” Unless someone is hewing to a specific religion or doctrine, who can say how Ganesh wound up showering your crown chakra with musical gold coins, or how Green Man or the Elfin Queen show up? The workings of the mind are complex and endless. Maybe you find yourself sitting in full lotus inside the third eye of the buddha, or are pulled by a tractor beam of love into the heart of the divine mother. Maybe you ride a cobra snake up the vertebral channel of the god Siva and then blow out his top knot and are dispersed into infinity. Anything can happen. Trillions and trillions of events precipitate these moments. But whatever the visions or phenomena that bring you to the point when you are immersed in the mystical experience, you wind up beyond all that phenomena, formless and boundless, dwelling in the essence of all being.

There is a natural affinity between the mystical experience offered by psychedelics and the practice of yoga, meditation and other non-denominational spiritual pursuits. A great many people who have had mystical experiences with psychedelics have subsequently turned inward with various meditative and contemplative practices to further their sense of living as beings of pure spirit. These practices are technologies of body and mind that can also precipitate profound, immersive mystical experiences but require more effort and consistency of engagement than going on a potent psychedelic journey.

As a yogi of over 50 years of daily practice I can report that various non-dogmatic meditative methods have launched me into mystical experiences similar to, and every bit as profound and immersive as those I have experienced with LSD, ayahuasca, large oral doses of cannabis, peyote and more. For me and many people I know, psychedelics have been and are a gateway to spiritual experience, the apprehension of our essential being, at one with the all and the everything and intrinsically interconnected with the infinite wellspring of all existence. Many people who tripped long ago and then adopted meditative practices sans psychedelics have circled back around, supplementing practice with occasional universe-shattering, soul-dissolving psychedelic experiences. There is nothing quite like sitting in half lotus on a mat after a nice tall shot of ayahuasca as everything you know is being sandblasted to nano bits by brilliant radiance so overwhelming that there is no resisting it. For true refreshment of the soul and radical healing, psychedelics can greatly aid spiritual practice, while that practice affords better navigational skills in the wild and woolly inter-dimensional landscapes in which we find ourselves with psychedelics. Psychedelics and meditative and spiritual practice are mutually enhancing."

"Since antiquity people have turned to various psychedelics specifically to be suffused in spirit. This is an essential and treasured purpose. The apprehension of the mystical experience as sacred demonstrates the monumental worth and precious life-changing nature of such events. For revelation, insight, joy, healing and transformative power with psychedelics, mystical experience holds the key. Rather than freaking out and fretting that mystical concerns somehow taint serious inquiry into psychedelics, let’s redouble our efforts to go deeply into the mystical, where the treasures lie. This cannot be accomplished with roundtable discussions, theoretical equations or sanitized language. Experience alone reveals this treasure. Everybody else stands on the sidewalk and watches as the parade goes by. The journey takes courage. It can only be accomplished by diving in deeply. There is no other path to this. So eat the fungus. Put the blotter on your tongue. Swallow the glass of ayahuasca. Chew thoughtfully the peyote. Go in. Go far. When it comes to mystical experience, either go big, or go home."

So true.


The mystical experience teaches one thing—the oneness of everything.

And yes, you are you brother’s keeper.

Worry stems from a lack of trust, which stems from a lack of self-love. You’ll never trust anyone else until you learn how to respect yourself.

Nobody sits in Meditation to “burn of their karmas”. Even GSD has made it clear that the Masters don’t take on your karmas—no one can.

The only reason you sit in meditation is to realize your true nature, rise above these layers of misconception about the truth of who you are and realize your true self. You’re not removing layers of karma. You’re removing layers of misperception.


99,99% NO

Proven RSSB teachings

We generate some patience, some love, say 1 %% %%%
Certainly not for ourselves ( as Jeevas )
The Master adds the pureness and what s further needed
to use our Crown°
to do what you wrote and so much more f i Patience °°
He really IS the Creator and has the Package

What HE does is in the texts at initiation,
not in Q&A

and is indeed unbelievable for most

° We all can very well judge Where we are
when we have an adrenaline flash & n accident or attack
if there was sufficient meditation the mini_second adrenaline flash is in the Crown ONLY
in flabbergasting serenity
A nice independent way to see where/who you are

°° Our Lack of patience created bad karma ( which is good) & brought us on this planet


I don't agree, but that's ok. We can still be friends. :)

That's what's great about life. You don't have to believe the same things in order to have a friendship strong connection. Just being present in a person's life says more than all the words ever written.

@Sonia Yeeees

777 77 7

How s work?

The same. Work is always good :)


whatilearnedtoday.life (not open to comments, just a diary of sorts to "try" and foster a little humility)


I know this will come as a big shock to most but I actually work with in IT/cyber. So, I might share a lot sometimes but 99% of my life I keep to myself. Like most of the people here do.

On this blog we share our stories and thoughts and experiences but beyond that it’s all virtual—a purely digital relationship. Somewhat fascinating when you think about it.

Have you ever spent an hour or two talking to someone and then realize at the end of it that you don’t really know anything about them. It’s a digital phenomenon.

This weekend I nearly deleted all of my social media accounts (all 2 of them) which I rarely post to… basically I only have them to keep up with old friends and extended family. I spent half of last Saturday resetting passwords, writing down all of my passwords, deleting files, implementing extra security.

I’m not trying to erase my life, I just don’t want anyone else hijacking it.

Just FYI, pen and paper is the latest in spy tech. 🙄

Seriously though, this ransomware stuff is waaaaaay out of control.

October is cyber awareness month. It’s the perfect time to go digital minimalism, both for your safety and your sanity. And I’m not being preachy—I’m being obnoxiously helpful. 😛 Everyone should read this book. Sorry for the ridiculously long link…


And ironically, one of the best gifts new parents can give their kids is a super common name. In 10 years you’ll understand why.

Hey Brian,

I saw your other site’s blog post and the article (it came up second in a Google search).

You can buy kits to determine your electrolyte balance. The kidneys and bladder do a lot in helping to keep the electrolyte balance stable in the body.

I take certain medications that have an unfortunate side effect of dehydration. They totally mess up my electrolyte balance which always leads to anxiety and depression. I keep an eye on it so that it doesn’t become a problem too often. It can be pretty dangerous though. Sometimes it causes serious heart problems.

Anyway, check your electrolytes. Take them if you need them (I think just about everyone is deficient to some degree).

There’s all sorts of info on Google. All I can say is the connection between depression/anxiety and an electrolyte imbalance is REAL. And like I said, if unchecked it can really do some damage to the heart and other organs.

Hope you feel better soon.

Jeezuz couldn’t find the most recent open thread number but wanted to share this:


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