I'm asked how to adjust to life after leaving RSSB

Here's a message I got recently from someone who has left the India-based religious organization I was an active member of for 35 years, Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB). My reply to this person follows the message.

"baba ji" refers to the current RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon. "Seva" means service, volunteering. "Satsangi" is a RSSB initiate. "Satsang" is a RSSB meeting.

Hi Brian,

I came across your blog a while ago and it has been instrumental in helping me question my beliefs. My family is satsangi and I was raised in it. I think you and I had a similar loyalty to the path.  I would attend seva every weekend and sometimes in the weeknights too and was heavily involved in the regional and national satsangs when baba ji would come.  I always considered myself a satsangi; however, for seven years I was very deeply entrenched in the satsangi way of life.  For those seven years, my life revolved around seva, satsang and satsangis to the point that I sacrificed my non-satsangi friendships for the sake of the rs path.

10 years ago, I moved to a different city where I didn’t have access to the teachings.  The sangat was small, I attended a few satsangs but I didn’t put in the same amount of effort.  Now, 10 years later, I am slowly realizing that the path isn’t for me.  The financial scandal pretty much ended any hope for reconciliation, especially when I read on your blog that baba ji said he has diabetes and can’t attend court yet was holding satsang on the same day.  It is always preached that we need to be the best representatives of the guru so we do not bring shame to him.  What about him bringing shame to us?  How is he being a good representative of us? He also preaches about ‘haq halal di kamai’ or earning an honest living.  It is all so hypocritical.  

The worst part is, the fear is still there.  I’m typing this, but will something horrible happen to me now?  Will I go blind because I’m rejecting the guru?  I know it’s ridiculous, I’m a rational person, yet these wayward thoughts that have been programmed into me since I was 5 years old keep popping up and I don’t know how to shut them up.  There isn’t any guilt, I’ve been freely telling my family and close friends that I’m not binding myself to arbitrary restrictions anymore and I do truly think it’s a sham centred around cashing in. I’m still a vegetarian since that’s my own morality but I’ve pretty much stopped asking about ingredients at restaurants and do have a drink when I feel like it.  By all outward appearances I am untangling myself from the situation but inwardly, there is a smidgeon of fear that I can’t seem to erase.

At the end of the day, I’m not overly angry but more so disappointed and very very sad.  It is just so sad, I can’t believe it.  I feel as though I’m in mourning.  I guess the reason I’m writing to you is because you are so far ahead of me in this journey.  Did this happen to you?  How did you ‘unlearn’ the programming?  It seems you bought into the teachings as much as I did, maybe you can give me some advice on how to deal with this.

Thanks for your blog Brian.  I know you get a lot of flack for it, but it was instrumental in helping spur my critical thinking of the path.

This was my reply.

Thanks for your message. It makes me feel good to hear from people like you who find some value in my Church of the Churchless blog. 

Yes, I was very loyal to Charan Singh, who initiated me. Gurinder Singh, not quite as much, though I certainly did a heck of a lot of seva after Gurinder became the RSSB guru. 

 

Here’s some thoughts about how to adjust to life after RSSB.

 

(1) It takes time. To me it’s a lot like going through a divorce, something I did after 18 years of marriage. I loved my first wife. But we grew apart. At first I thought about her a lot, wondering if there was anything we could have done to save our marriage. Now I’ve been remarried for 31 years to a woman I love even more. And my first wife is happy with the man she has found. 

 

Likewise, it’s natural to spend considerable time thinking about your RSSB years, since this path meant a lot to you for quite a few years. That isn’t time lost. It’s time gained, since you’ve learned a lot about yourself, how you view spirituality, and such. Now I rarely think about my first wife, since I’m happy with my current wife. I also rarely think about RSSB now, except when I use it as an example in one of my blog posts. 

 

So my advice is to let your adjustment to breaking away from RSSB happen naturally. As the days, weeks, and months pass, you’ll find yourself feeling more comfortable not being involved with RSSB.

 

(2) Regarding fear, I don’t think this can be a productive basis for spirituality. Isn’t love much more important? What kind of god or guru would punish you for deciding to deconvert from a belief system? Certainly not any god or guru deserving of devotion. 

 

Yes, the RSSB literature contains references to nasty stuff that happens to disciples who stray from RSSB after being initiated. But almost certainly these are superstitions, written by people who don’t know what they’re talking about. And I speak as someone who wrote several books for RSSB. I did a good job with the books. However, I didn’t have any special mystical knowledge. Nor do, in my opinion, the authors of other RSSB books.

 

If it gives you some comfort, I broke away from RSSB around 2004. Seventeen years later, I haven’t noticed any bad things that have happened to me beyond what happens to everyone, like health problems as I’ve aged. 

 

(3) Keep in mind that nothing is 100% certain. That’s a scientific perspective, since science always is open to having hypotheses or theories revised or even overturned. Thus there’s a chance RSSB is correct in how it views reality, just as there’s a chance that any of the other thousands of world religions and mystical paths is correct. 

 

What you and I have done is increase our chances of learning the truth about God, life after death, and all that. Speaking for myself, what I do every day is spend a minute or two talking to God and the guru who initiated me, Charan Singh. 

 

I say something like, “Hey God/guru, I’d like to know you. I’d like to learn from you. I don’t know how to find you, assuming you exist. So it’s up to you to reach out to me. I’m here. Pay me a visit in my consciousness. Or if you want to prove that you exist in a physical manner, feel free to manifest a new Tesla in my driveway. Then I’ll really believe in you.” (I’m hoping God/guru have a sense of humor.)

 

Just because you have given up on RSSB doesn’t mean you have given up on searching for meaning, or on opening yourself to a possible supernatural reality. When I got divorced, I didn’t give up on women. I just gave up on a particular woman, and then found a different woman who was a better fit for me.

 

Likewise, the only reason you might feel like you’ve lost something is the strong devotion you had to RSSB still lingering in your mind. As I said, this is natural. You should feel good about that devotion. Just turn it in other directions now.

 

There are lots of things, people, causes, and such to be devoted to. Or to love. There’s nothing special about the devotion you gave to RSSB. What matters is devotion itself, not where it is directed. Every religion wants its followers to put the religion first, or at least above most other stuff in life. That’s crazy. Only you can decide what is most important to you now. Trust yourself.

 

Hope this helps at least a little bit. 

 

     — Brian

Comments

[Spence Tepper]

So beautifully written!
That's the Brian Ji I have come to love.

[Appreciative Reader]

As far as coping after having left a cult, I think it might be important to build up (or reconnect with, or focus on, as the case may be) on relationships outside of that cult.

It would depend on the cult, and the nature and the extent of one's involvement with the cult, but I can imagine how most of someone's family and close friends might belong to that same cult. In such cases, there could be rifts in those relationships (assuming those others continue in the cult, and aren't very open-minded and/or accommodative), and that in itself might be difficult to cope with. In such cases, it might help to have meaningful relationships outside of the cult.

And of course, if one's SO continues with the whole cult thing, and one doesn't, then, if one's partner is well and truly caught up in the cult mentality, that might make for ...difficulties, in that relationship. Not insurmountable, of course, depending, but probably not an easy thing to resolve. I've no clue myself how one might deal with something like that. (I suppose give each other latitude and space, and constructive engagement of views. Easier, much easier, said than done.)

(I'm speaking in general terms here. Reading this post got me thinking along those lines. Not implying that any of that applies to your correspondent. In fact probably not, since they don't mention it.)

[manjit]

As I have mentioned on many occasions over the years, Brian does an incredible service or seva by having something approaching a public forum to share RS news, and for this we should all be incredibly grateful.

Thank you Brian.

Manjit

[Nick Ny]

I am not a writer of long comments, however do contribute from time to time on this blog. I went through a similar journey in life with the difference being that I was born in the RSSB cult and all my life was made to believe that the guru is GIHF and there is no other way to enlightenment but RS, but many things did not make sense to me especially the karma theory, so as I was growing up some of these thoughts kept bugging me throughout. Since my entire life revolved around RSSB, going to dera during summer vacations or any other vacation, doing seva, I just did not have a lot of time to think that I was growing up in this cult, but since something within me told me that I am not on the right path, I started googling “Is Radha Swami real” in 2013 and I came across Brian’s blog which was an eye openers for me! It made the most impact since one of my favorite books was “Life is Fair” so Brian had a lot of credibility in my eyes, so it took me almost 2 years to finally be able to part my way with RSSB after coming across this blog. The final nail in the coffin was the religare scandal which is still going on and of course GSD is still roaming around freely while his associate and nephews are in jail. So what has happened since the time I left RSSB: I tried other paths including praying to the Hindu gods, going to Church, meditating on my own, look for other paths but nothing brings me peace….I think I am too heart broken from within and there is a part of my soul that’s been hurt so much that there may never be any solace to it. My wife is orthodox Christian so she was definitely relieved when I told her that I am no longer part of this cult as now all the dietary restrictions that I had imposed in my house for myself and also my children have been lifted off and they are able to live a normal childhood for example to be able to eat a slice of cake which may have egg in it! I have left the path for good, I do eat some meat once in a while and do enjoy my occasional scotch! I am so heart broken that I have not really tried to look with a lot of effort for any other path, I did like Parmahansa Yogananda but don’t have the strength within to go through another path which may or may not be a cult, I have been reading up on Islam lately but not been able to make up my mind yet on it as well…so in a nutshell, I am living my life aimlessly with no particular path to follow. I do enjoy reading all comments and posts on this blog as they relate to RSSB, all other blogs that Brian posts, I skim through them. I did form a charitable organization in the name of my children and we try and help to the best of our abilities women and children who may need our help especially in developing countries. So the closest I can come to a spiritual experience is through compassion for other beings. Since all my beliefs related to RSSB are shattered, I don’t know what will happen at the time of death or thereafter but I try not to think much about it as I do hope there is life after death and there is something better on the other side waiting for us…

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Nick NY
Whatever divinity there is, is inside you.
Whatever protection there is for you and your family, whatever divine love, is in you.

Trust your gut on this.

Don't get caught up on a teacher. Love and God's grace are far bigger than that.

Leave everything false. Take the wisdom you learned, forgive the failings and misunderstandings, and keep an open view.

Embrace the mystery and potential of every incredible empty monument, and the hope of your next gig. If you need a physical teacher he is already working on it.

But all he can tell you is to find the real master inside you. Love itself.

Mine that.
And trust your gut.

[Appreciative Reader]

"I was born in the RSSB cult and all my life was made to believe that the guru is GIHF"

.......I think the practice of parents indoctrinating/brainwashing their children with their own religious beliefs is something that ought to be abolished by law. Just like just two or three generations back it was okay for parents and teachers to beat kids, but it no longer is tolerated, thus with this religious brainwashing business.

Most of the irrational bullshit that the world is filled with will probably evaporate away into nothingness within a generation or two if every person thinks their way to their own beliefs, rather than taking their parents' faith as the starting point and, often, the default.

[um]

@ AR
>> Just like just two or three generations back it was okay for parents and teachers to beat kids, but it no longer is tolerated, thus with this religious brainwashing business.<<

Ar, these days we do not want our prisoners to be shown on TV with the marks of physical torture .....what do you tink the torture has stopped?! If not, you are rational thinker, would it be possible that these new techniques are worse?!

In any case, speak to some psychiatrist, therapist or counselor and as what effect the intellectual and emotional means to correct children does with them. Whether they are more long lasting harmful or not.

In the old days, all would understand the difference between correction and abuse.
Those who want to abuse can use physical means but not all that do so are abusive.

Further ....religion as part of life vieuw, is part of culture. By themselves there is nothing wrong with any of these things, it all depends how they are used. By your own observation you could have and can observe that for some religion is a burden and for others a great help.

Imagine aparent sitting next to a child in pain and the parents, if they are sincere believers, praying next to the child to their god for help in com;lparison to the same parents the same conditions, that have no other belief than ..chance!

[Nick Ny]

Thank you Spence Tapper for the words of wisdom. I appreciate them very much 🙏🙏

[Appreciative Reader]

Hello, um.

Yes, I suppose there's more ways to inflict damage on a child than just whupping them. But I guess that's an argument against those other psychological modes of disciplining kids, isn't it, rather than an argument for corporal punishment?

And I agree, should the parents be sincere believers in whatever they believe in, simply observing them will actually give their kids a point of reference, maybe even a default with which to start their own search for meaning. That cannot be helped, and probably there's no harm done just from this. But actively brainwashing kids by making them memorize catechism and insisting they go to church or mosque or synagogue or temple or dianetics workshops or what-have-you, that many parents do actually impose on their children, is what I'm objecting to. (Of course, already many parents no longer do this, at all, just like no doubt in the old days many parents never physically hurt their kids. Just like the latter is now no longer tolerated, I'm suggesting the former also not be left just as an option for progressive parents, but something all parents must abide by.)

As for appreciating one's culture, if taken in strictly that spirit I suppose it is fine to introduce one's kids to one's traditions and culture. What I'm objecting to is trying to make the kids believe that the actual beliefs that those traditions are based on is true: I think it is best to teach children to think critically, and leave them to arrive at their own beliefs, in their own way and in their own time.

[um]

@ AR

Both A.R. ... when used in a wrong way I consider the mental means of correction far more dangerous and ... in my eyes ... these new techniques are developed by people that are far more evil by heart that there predecessors .....have a look in the circles where people advocate nothing than kindness and goodness, say the school after Rudolf Steiner.

A.R. People in my opinion are always good and bad and never "ALL good" ... if they talk about good constantly , those who come in contact with them, must feel themselves, by necessity, as a dirty floor cloth. And is they do not act in a way that can be labeled as "bad" they must have found a way to make bad look good.

>> As for appreciating one's culture, if taken in strictly that spirit I suppose it is fine to introduce one's kids to one's traditions and culture. <<

Again, that does not depend upon WHAT is introduced but HOW it is done.
Those who reali have faith and have no doubts in their heart or social fear for what others might think tend always to introduce by example ... they do not need anything from their children.

Those who indoctrinate others, stand in need of others for their own selfish reasons.

[manjit]

Appreciateive Reader ".......I think the practice of parents indoctrinating/brainwashing their children with their own religious beliefs is something that ought to be abolished by law. "

Ahh, yes.

Nothing like a bit of fascist, totalitarian, communist etc like meddling in parental raising of the children.

I mean, that most bloodiest and horrific of centuries, the 20th, which made every religious war, oppression and injustice seem like heaven on earth, fuelled by very similar totalitarian, materialist, "rational" and atheist ideology was just so delightful, wasn't it?

God/mindless matter you gotta love "rational" folk and their apparently innate tendency towards totalitarianism....

It would funny if it wasn't so tragic.

[Appreciative Reader]

"Those who indoctrinate others, stand in need of others for their own selfish reasons."

.......Very, very, very true, um.

It could be something as blatant as directly extracting money or goods or effort from them. Perhaps something weird, like earning brownie points with their God by winning souls for Him. Or it could be something more subtle, like deriving some kind of emotional and/or social capital from their victims. Or it could be psychological and self-referential, in terms of bolstering one's own faith. But ultimately, I agree, those who indoctrinate others, have some selfish end in mind.

Of course, there's one more category, I guess. People who simply and unthinkingly do their indoctrinating. When it comes to parents and children, this might be an important reason. They do it simply because that's how they've always seen it done.

-------

Take something as innocuous and entirely harmless, like the Santa Claus thing, or the tooth fairy thing. It's a small thing, and really, makes no difference at all. But why must parents fill their kids' heads with this kind of nonsense? Can't they think up ways to have fun, and ways to bond with their kids, other than by pouring rubbish into their kids' heads? (Like I said, though, this specific example is entirely harmless. Except, just maybe, as it might act as some kind of a gateway woo --- you know, like gateway drug, one small harmless woo that opens the kids up to swallowing more and bigger and more toxic woo further down the line.)

And these probably falls in the last category, unthinkingly doing something just because that's what they've always seen done. (Nor would I use the word "indoctrination" to refer to these harmless examples, but I use them only as examples for that last category, that is, of parents doing what in other cases might actually qualify as indoctrinating, but doing unthinkingly and without any real deliberate motive as such.)

-------

And this is a great example of how one might uphold traditions without at the same time indoctrinating kids. By all means do the Santa Claus thing, as well as the tooth fairy thing, by all means have fun, by all means give the child something to look forward to; but take them aside, right at the outset, and clearly tell them that this is just fiction and make-believe and role-playing. That way the tradition is not jettisoned, but weirdo beliefs aren't downloaded on to the kid's helpless brain.

And thus with the more serious stuff as well, with such differences as far as the specifics as might be applicable.

[umami]

I got married to be a satsangi and stay within the vows, but it didn't work out. 3 years later we were divorced. During that time I picked out lottery numbers and played them unsuccessfully for a few weeks. For whatever reason the wife hated my numbers, so I abandoned them. 25 years later and a habitual player, I saw those very numbers hit. I missed out on $50,000,000.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[um]

@ AR

You should have seen my son when we celebrated Santa Claus ... the little fellow danced from pure joy around when the neighbour knocked the door and threw cookies and other sweets into the dinning room .... hahahaha .... who would have lost that.

Years of rationalism can not give even a split second of that joy of life.

Those who are not able to give it to their children and children that miss the capacity to enjoy it for THEM rationalist explanations are good.

[manjit]

Appreciateive Reader ".......I think the practice of parents indoctrinating/brainwashing their children with their own religious beliefs is something that ought to be abolished by law. "

Actually, this idea is so abhorrent it really should be made clear.

I have heard absolutely nothing from any RS guru or teaching, ever, that even begins to approach the horrors and nightmare world and reality that this delightfully "rational" suggestion by Appreciative Reader would entail.

A truly, truly delightful example of how delusion, suffering, misplaced, ignorant and arrongant righteousness and all kinds of oppression are a human issue, and clearly not a "religion" issue.

As I have mentioned on numerous occasions to the deafening silence of neo-atheists, the 20th century was factually the most bloodiest and horrific in human history, and we here see how delusional "rationalists" with irrational hatred of religion brought it about.

Tragic. Pay attention lest these horrors are imposed on us again by the secular zealots.

[Appreciative Reader]

Hello, manjit.

You find my suggestion abhorrent, apparently, and you hold forth at some length on your abhorrence, as why shouldn't you. But you don't actually explain what it is you find abhorrent about it. You think, then, that parents should be allowed to continue to pass on any irrational superstitions they harbor on to their helpless children, as they often do today? Why is that? What possible good can come of it, and what possible harm can come from stopping such?

Also, this is the second time you bring up the fact that the 20th century was the bloodiest in human history. There are many facets to it, and plenty of them entirely entwined with the theme of religion; but leaving that aside, don't you see that the exceptional "bloodiness" of the last century owes largely to human progress misused and misdirected? To the far more advanced science and technology, the far more advanced economies, and all of that far more effectively harnessed in the use of whatever those in charge wanted to use them for? To see in the exceptional quantities of blood spilled in the last century some kind of indictment of atheism is wholly misguided and mistaken. For reasons already spelled out above, and also because the fact is that the presence of religious superstitions does not do away with with the other ills that atheistic worldviews harbor, those are on top of and in addition to ills that owe directly to religion, except that religious superstitions and their baleful effects sometimes/often eclipse those other ills.

In any case, at least as far as I am concerned, the fundamental distinction is not between theism and atheism, but between superstition on one hand and rationality and a scientific temper on the other. Atheism happens to be the tentative but reasonable de facto consequence of the latter, so far as we can make out, that's all. I'm no supporter of unthinking and tyrannical atheism of the kind favored by the Soviets and the Chinese, any more than I'm a supporter of religious superstitions. The former is no less abhorrent, as far as I am concerned, than the latter.

[Appreciative Reader]

"You should have seen my son when we celebrated Santa Claus ... the little fellow danced from pure joy"

.......I'm afraid we're derailing this thread, that's meant to be about Brian's correspondent's de-culting. But I'll permit myself one last comment here.

I'm happy for you, um, and for your son. Absolutely, I wouldn't want you guys to miss out even a jot off of the fun you had. But this brings us back to Douglas Adams. (“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful, without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”) Is there nothing else that could have brought him that same joy and pleasure? And would explaining the actual state of affairs necessarily spoil his fun? After all, when you play hide-and-seek with him, or cowboys-and-indians, or whatever, you don't try to pretend, surely, that unless he finds you he'll lose you forever, or that those toy guns can actually kill? Kids love play-acting, and play-acting can be done without misrepresenting things.

Of course, not to make too much of a song and dance about Santa Claus specifically. Like I said, that and the tooth fairly, I used those two examples specifically to illustrate what I meant about parents at times unthinkingly (and without any deeper motives) pass on irrational superstitions to their children --- over and above the times when they do this to further some selfish end or some other vested interest. Those two specific examples in themselves aren't important, obviously, because every child figures out for themselves eventually (and usually well before their parents realize they've worked things out for themselves already) who Santa actually is, and who it is that actually leaves those gifts there.

[manjit]

Appreciative Reader: "You find my suggestion abhorrent, apparently, and you hold forth at some length on your abhorrence, as why shouldn't you. But you don't actually explain what it is you find abhorrent about it. "

It should be obvious to any intelligent & clear headed thinker who isn't completely dominated by a delusional and deeply mistaken adherence to an ideology within which such obviously horrific and transparent totalitarianism is warranted.

Your deeply dogmatic adherence to your ideology along with an imo misplaced certainty in your own subjective opinions mistakenly believing them to be "rational" and logical is what blinds you to the blindingly obvious.

Just as you wish that parents be banned from teaching/sharing their own beliefs, culture, way of life, morals, ethics etc with their own fucking children simply because YOU are so darn intelligent, rational and objective with complete knowledge of what is right and wrong that YOU can decide what ALL parents should be allowed to teach their OWN children...........just so the wheel of dogma - turned by people just as arrogant, ignorant and short-sighted as your good self - will turn so that people will be unable to teach their own children the opposite dogma (non-believers in whichever dogma will not be allowed to share their non-belief with their children), and the cycle of suffering born of arrogant and delusional dogmatists on opposite sides of a logical fence will continue.

In regards the causes of the horrors of the 20th century, I have paid extremely close attention to the ideology, politics and science behind it. I think your response is simply a mindless, mistaken and entirely predictable defense of your blatant bias in dogma, and really doesn't comprehend the history at all. It is exceptionally obvious the vast majority of the bloodshed and horror of the 20th century was intimately tied up with atheism, secular beliefs, science and the decline of religion. If you're not aware of that and wish to deflect blame onto some ambiguous other, indeed even religion itself, whislt you also advocate totalitarian control over the children of parents, I think you reveal far, far more about yourself, and your blatant bias and bigotry.

I don't feel your comments deem any further response, the abhorrence in your suggestion that parents should not be allowed to share their culture, beliefs, morals and ethics with their children, and by implication YOUR culture, beliefs, morals and ethics SHOULD BE, speaks louder than anything I can ever say.

As should be obvious, despotic hypocrisy, delusion, misplaced certainty in one's own beliefs etc etc is clearly, clearly not a "religion" issue, but a human one.

And the atheists, as demonstrated by the 20th century and AR's comments here, are the absolute worst.

Joyless, they insist everyone be just as joyless as themselves.

[Brian Hines]

Manjit, you're completely wrong. Flat out wrong. Atheists are some of the happiest people on Earth. Check out surveys of national happiness, such as the 2020 results in this Wikipedia article. The happiest countries include the low-religion Scandinavian countries: Finland, Norway, Sweden, plus Denmark and Iceland. The United States, a high-religion country, is #18.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

Provide some solid evidence that atheists are joyless. I can say with confidence that almost all of my friends are atheists, and we're happy people. I realize that you enjoy spouting ideas out of your head that aren't true, but you really should check your facts before making absurd comments such as atheists are joyless. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to reason seriously, not religiously.

[Appreciative Reader]

Just as you wish that parents be banned from teaching/sharing their own beliefs, culture, way of life, morals, ethics etc with their own fucking children simply because YOU are so darn intelligent, rational and objective with complete knowledge of what is right and wrong that YOU can decide what ALL parents should be allowed to teach their OWN children

.......Like I've clearly spelled out already, I'm not against parents sharing their own culture or way of life or morals and ethics. But I'm against them passing their own superstitions and irrational beliefs on to their children. There's a very clear difference between the two.

And yes, the fact that parents bring children into the world, and bring them up, does not give them licence to do whatever they like with them. For instance, they are no longer allowed to beat their children, as earlier generations used to.

"Joyless, they insist everyone be just as joyless as themselves.:

.......That sounds like projection. People do find joy and happiness without necessarily having to buy into superstitions.

------------------------ manjit, peace, man. I am surprised to see you lose your composure in this manner. I have no wish to quarrel with you --- disagree with you, sure, why not, but not quarrel with you --- and I do wish you well. Over and out for now (we've derailed the thread quite enough already).

[um]

@ AR

There is nothing in this life worth that anybody should pay attention to it...NOTHING... and NOBODY.

BUT ....

It is our birthright or misery that we "can" and sometimes are forced to attach value to this or that.

People kill and are killed for their flag, their country, their political system because they attached value, attached meaning to something that has no meaninmg whatsoever of itself.

The same holds for what is dear to you ... rationalism
BUT ....
It is by itself as meaningless as Santa Claus.

As I wrote several times before, rationality is the path you have chosen for yourself and for that reason you have to walk it to the bitter end, in order to find out that it was meaningless by itself and it was just you that gave it life. In those days you will understand also that what matters is the capacity to give and direct attention and not the objects to which that attention is directed ... and ... that there is no qualitative difference between these objects that make this goal or that goal better.

[um]

@ AR

Maybe you know that one cannot and for that reason should not "reason" with children under 7 ... ask those in the field that are involved with the study of development and learning in children.

It has always been a desire for humans to hide their inborn evil, meanness from the public eye and to be seen as as "good"

It is as the use of lavender on the stinking bodies in the days they didn't have showers.

[manjit]

Brian: "Provide some solid evidence that atheists are joyless. I can say with confidence that almost all of my friends are atheists, and we're happy people. I realize that you enjoy spouting ideas out of your head that aren't true, but you really should check your facts before making absurd comments such as atheists are joyless. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to reason seriously, not religiously."

Hahaha, priceless, thanks :) After several years of providing copious facts, articles and arguments which thoroughly undermine and even disprove numerous of your dogmatic, "religiously reasoned" arguments over the years without a single meaningful response, you choose this throw-away and ultimately inconsequential sentence to respond to? It's like you had the link ready; was this passed around on a circular at the weekly or monthly atheist meeting you attend as a go to for proving how happy y'all are? I don't know how those things go, I haven't been to a church of any sort for years. I feel so bad I think I'll let you have this one.....Beautiful, well done :)

So without even questioning the legitimacy of how well "joy" can be measured on a survey, or that religious freedom is available in all those countries, please reconsider that your rebuttal to my sentence was in complete ignorance of the fact another poster who shares your ideology stated it should be banned for parents to share their own religious or spiritual beliefs with their own children. Please let that sink in, thought police. Parents should not be allowed to share their beliefs with their own children UNLESS they share YOUR nihilistic belief that life is a pointless and meaningless accident. Even ignoring the horrific implications of policing this - a totalitarian and dystopian nightmare - even intellectually this is just a deeply repellant idea, reminiscent of other athiest ideologies in the 20th century which caused tremendous suffering.

Let it sink in the kind of ideas you are willing to excuse, just to criticise somebody who doesn't share your nihilistic, materialist worldview.

THIS is what dogmatic secular ideology does to people. It makes them feel superior, judgemental and able to dictate to others what they can believe and how they should live their lives. The atheist taliban. Just look at the horrors of the 20th century.

As for me, I don't know for absolute certain if Islam, Jesus, Gurinder, Ching Hai, Buddhism, or the miracle and as-yet scientific mystery of creation being a completely insentient and pointless accident isn't true, though I personally find it incredibly unlikely any of them are. But I don't have the intellectual arrogance, or inner animosity, or smug sense of superiority, to demand that parents not be allowed to share and teach their own beliefs with their own children of any of these as yet unproven human beliefs.

It appears you think it's a wonderful world where parents are not allowed to teach their children beliefs that YOU disagree so vehemently with that you attend an anti-theist, oops I meant atheist church, judging by your criticism of a throw-away sentence in my post in astonished and aghast response to this abhorrent totalitarian suggestion?

Huh. Interesting.

Perhaps what is obvious to me is not as obvious to those swayed by superficial appearances.

@Appreciative Reader, you wrote " I'm not against parents sharing their own culture or way of life or morals and ethics. But I'm against them passing their own superstitions and irrational beliefs on to their children. There's a very clear difference between the two."

I'm sorry, this discussion is far too superficial for me. There is no "clear difference between the two" at all, this is another one of you "just so" arguments, like your "functional evidence" for consciousness. It means nothing. Precisely as Um is hinting at, Neitschze says there ARE NO morals and ethics. This is like basic, basic western philosphy dude. You appear to think YOUR morals, values, opinions, adherence to "rationality" etc is somehow like a universal force like gravity. It is not. It is your own. What you are in effect demanding, like any despotic despot or regime, is that everyone acquiesce to YOUR values, intellectual beliefs, morals, ethics etc. And that it be made law. And that, presumably, that law should be enforced.

It is obvious.

It is totalitarian.

It is abhorrent.

It is horrific.

That it is in the name of secular, atheist "rationality" does not make it any less so than if it is in the name of extremist Islam or Christianity etc.

THIS is being humane, not being "rational atheists".

AR's comment here speaks volumes, as does Brian's ignore-ance of it.

AR wrote: ""Joyless, they insist everyone be just as joyless as themselves.:

.......That sounds like projection. People do find joy and happiness without necessarily having to buy into superstitions."

Ah, possibly it is projection.

I would wager it isn't though ;)

[Appreciative Reader]

"this discussion is far too superficial for me. There is no "clear difference between the two" at all, this is another one of you "just so" arguments, like your "functional evidence" for consciousness. It means nothing. "

...............manjit, take it easy, man. I don't, at all, mean this as some kind of put-down, but I'm afraid your comments are all over the place. When I say there is a difference between the two, I mean, as I've very clearly spelled out, that there is a difference between, on one hand, parents making children aware of their traditions and their culture, and on the other hand parents passing on as fact to their children what is no more than unsupported superstition.

I'm not sure why you seem so personally antagonistic today. I'm afraid you seem to battling not so much with my words and views, but with constructs you create yourself about what you think I mean.

I don't wish to go on and on with this, but since we've already gone some way into this, I'm curious what exactly you find "abhorrent" in my suggestion that parents shouldn't be permitted to indoctrinate their children with their pet woo. You never did explain, you know. Is it because you believe parents must have the right to do as they like with their own children? But we don't let them inflict corporal punishment on them any more, like earlier generations used to. Surely you wouldn't label laws that don't allow parents to beat their children as "totalitarian" and "abhorrent"? And I showed you how you seem to be conflating, on one hand, making children aware of their traditions and custom, and on the other, superstitions being passed off as fact. Would you like to clearly discuss why you think a Christian who believes in the whole creation-6K-years-ago thing, for instance, should have the right to keep teaching that as fact to his children, and why stopping them from doing that would be "abhorrent"? Makes no sense to me.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manjit
You are right to suspect the data re the Happiest countries.

They do indeed have more Atheists.
But
1.They are also the wealthiest.

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/10-happiest-countries-in-the-world-are-among-the-least-religious/127465.htm

It is the poorer countries, those living in poverty and fear who have God to turn to, not money.

But they are also becoming happier faster as their economies improve...

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2007/07/24/happiness-is-increasing-in-many-countries-but-why/

2. Surveys within those Happiest, and wealthiest, countries, who have more Atheists, actually track their believers as happier than the non - believers

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question/%3famp=1

As we pointed out earlier, people in America who actively and regularly attend church at least once a week live 3-6 years longer than those to do not.

Camparing people from different nations has a lot of confounding variables, like economics.

But within these nations, those who are actively religous tend to rate themselves as happier.

https://time.com/collection/guide-to-happiness/4856978/spirituality-religion-happiness/

And they are more likely to vote, as well.

[manjit]

Appreciative Reader: "I don't, at all, mean this as some kind of put-down, but I'm afraid your comments are all over the place."

No, not at all. I am accused of this very often. Personally I interpret this as I'm covering large amounts of conceptual ideas too rapidly and the reader is unable to keep up, so really not a put down at all :)

Appreciative Reader: "But we don't let them inflict corporal punishment on them any more, like earlier generations used to. Surely you wouldn't label laws that don't allow parents to beat their children as "totalitarian" and "abhorrent"? "

I'm sorry, I find my point to be so obvious that I'm unsure why you are unable to even recognise it, is that you as a person sees nothing inherently wrong with your suggestion, or that your intellectual assurance in your rationalist dogma has blinded you to it? ;)

I find is astonishingly hard to believe that the difference between laws preventing physical or sexual abuse of children to laws preventing the sharing of IDEAS and THOUGHTS would not be obvious to anyone. It is ONLY FUNDAMENTALIST regimes, atheist or religious, that ban THOUGHTS and IDEAS, and it has always been thus. As a society, any society, there must be shared laws to enable people to live their lives however they want, with complete freedom in belief and thought and ideas, without impinging on the rights of others. Most societies go further than this and, based on near-universally (in that culture and era, these ALWAYS change) shared values, create other laws such a banning physical (and, again, it is questionable if/when some degree of physical "discipline" is a good or bad thing, or should even slaps on the back of a hand send parents to jail? Not black, not white, but grey, imo) and sexual violence on children, and imo quite rightly so.

However, in no rational persons mind (wait, what?) has the idea of BANNING THOIUGHTS AND IDEAS AND BELIEFS that do not impose on the freedoms of others (hence, cause actual crimes) seemed like anything other than a totalitarian, despotic, terrifying thought-police idea.

Is this not spectacularly obvious?

Appreciative Reader: "as I've very clearly spelled out, that there is a difference between, on one hand, parents making children aware of their traditions and their culture, and on the other hand parents passing on as fact to their children what is no more than unsupported superstition."

"And I showed you how you seem to be conflating, on one hand, making children aware of their traditions and custom, and on the other, superstitions being passed off as fact."

You keep repeating this bizarre - and trust me, very obvious, not complicated or over my head on any level - point, as if it makes any sense on any level whatsoever.

You have truly gone deep down into the rabbit-hole of the illusion that your rationality is, well, rational!

What kind of sad, twisted, dystopian world are you dreaming of where we are now policing HOW parents communicate their beliefs to their OWN children? Will there be a thought and language police force? Shall we call them the Reality-based Inquisition? Because nobody expects the Reality-based Inquisition. Shall they jump out of cupboards when dim-witted folk are brainwashing their children with ideas you disagree with and shout: "Nay woo-believer, thy stated Divine Love is God's nature to thine own children and our test tube have not yet located this Divine Love whereupon you woo! Thy must've proclaimed unto thine own children "I, a dim-witted unscientific woo-woo-dum-dum delusionally believe without any scientific peer reviewed data to support my baseless belief, that God, who does not exist scientifically speaking, has the nature of Divine Love, which also does not exist".... How do you plead? Off with their head, this child will be far better off at the Reality-based Nihilism is a basic universal force Orphanage......."

"Would you like to clearly discuss why you think a Christian who believes in the whole creation-6K-years-ago thing, for instance, should have the right to keep teaching that as fact to his children, and why stopping them from doing that would be "abhorrent"?

Again, I personally am not arrogant enough in my belief, values or choices etc to feel I should or could impose them on others.

In regards this Christian - I personally am of the variety is the spice of life mindset, I love every weird nook or cranny of creation. I think the world would be a far, far, far more sad and horrific place if everyone thought as you do, and there were no weird outsiders with weird beliefs.

And besides, again, I don't pretend to be as assured of my conceptual beliefs as you are in your own. I guess that is what real intellectual honesty about the limitations of our knowledge, understanding and judgement of others looks like, and not the mere pretence of such.

This thread should go back to the original topic, which is probably very important for many thousands of youngsters who grew up in the RS religion and are trying to reconcile the dissonance between reality and the RS teachings.

I'm definitely out of here this time, discussing such dystopian totalitarian, thought control ideas all under the pretence of being such great humanitarians leaves a bad taste in one's mouth. Or at least it should....;)

[manjit]

Spencer: "Hi Manjit
You are right to suspect the data re the Happiest countries."

Thank you Spence. I have seen many such claims and surveys before, including the one Brian linked to. Yes, both the data itself and how it is interpreted can be thoroughly deconstructed....but as I said I thought I'd let Brian have this one.

I'm sorry, I actually don't think this is much to do with atheism (of whom, like Feynmann, there are MANY I personally deeply admire and respect for their wonderful open-mindedness and intelligence.....as you know, there are many scientists who we probably both consider "mystics" in their own way.....of course, science itself grew out of the occult metaphysics but that is another story....).......this is about basic decency of allowing free thought and parents to be able to express and share their beliefs with their children.......this is the beauty, and ugly side too, of human nature.......but it is human nature and it is unnatural to interfere in it.......thought police are a sign of a dis-eased society. Obviously. Whether it is atheist totalitarianism or Islam totalitarianism, there you will find sad and unhappy civilians. I find this blindingly obvious, and worrying concerning that it is apparently not so to both AR and Brian....

Anyway, apologies for derailing this thread to the original letter writer and Brian, definitely my last post for today and in this thread.....

[Appreciative Reader]

"complete freedom in belief and thought and ideas"

.......Sure, manjit, people should have complete freedom of belief and thought and ideas. But no one should have the right to impose their beliefs on to other people. And children are other people, that is what parents sometimes tend to forget. No one has any right to brainwash anyone else, or at least they shouldn't.

-------

"What kind of sad, twisted, dystopian world are you dreaming of where we are now policing HOW parents communicate their beliefs to their OWN children?"

...............It is fine if a Christian, for instance, should clearly explain to his son that his religion is only a belief, and not fact; and what is more one belief among many others. But what is often conveyed is not this kind of a nuance. What is often conveyed is cock-eyed superstition, dressed up as fact, that the child has not the defenses to filter out, and therefore often carries with him all his life. That in fact is primarily (although obviously not exclusively) how religions are propagated.

You think not allowing people to do this is "dystopian"? Really? I think permitting people to brainwash their kids is what is dystopian. (Because children are uniquely vulnerable to being brainwashed by their parents.) Just like permitting parents to beat their children (which was fact just a couple generations ago) was dystopian.

[um]

@AR
>>It is fine if a Christian, for instance, should clearly explain to his son that his religion is only a belief, and not fact; and what is more one belief among many others.<<

why so selective for religion?
What about what it means to be American and how it is transferred into the minds of children so that they are prepared to kill and be killed??

Just as an example of the may things in culture that have no meaning of themselves but are given "absolute" meaning by members of a given society.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR
There may be just as many totalitarian Atheist parents as believers shouting falsehoods at their children in the name of Pseudoscience and threatening or shaming them to pledge their allegiance to the party line.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR
You wrote
"It is fine if a Christian, for instance, should clearly explain to his son that his religion is only a belief"

Do you have any religous friends?

This is exactly the Religion doctrine. Faith and love, belief and service to God. Not facts of this world. But the spirit in the heart. This is what people of Faith teach their children. What they have found for themselves to be true. But acknowldging that they can, at best, believe, and do not yet know. Knowing is the future promise of faith.

"Faith is to believe in what we cannot see. And to see is the reward of this Faith."
St. Augustine

Only fundamentalists of both religion and atheism insist they know the truth.

It never hurts to get to know people who believe differently than you believe.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You write
"why so selective for religion?
What about what it means to be American and how it is transferred into the minds of children so that they are prepared to kill and be killed??

" Just as an example of the may things in culture that have no meaning of themselves but are given "absolute" meaning by members of a given society."

Absolute meaning, the conviction of absolute truth is the hallmark if the fundamentalist cult, whether a religious cult, an Atheist cult, or a political cult.

[Appreciative Reader]

"Do you have any religious friends?"

..........I just love this passive aggressive stuff you keep handing out. What about you, Spence? Do you have any friends who aren't superstitious, and who believe in critical thinking?

----------

"This is exactly the Religion doctrine. Faith and love, belief and service to God. Not facts of this world. But the spirit in the heart. This is what people of Faith teach their children."

..........What utter bull. Sometimes that is how it is, sure. And that is how it SHOULD be, sure. But in practice, often enough what is taught by religious parents to their children is, unfortunately, superstitions masquerading as truth.

Do you really mean to sit there and tell me, hand to your heart, that you're not even aware of this? Come on, Spence. This is misdirection, plain and simple (attempted misdirection, that is).

-------

"Only fundamentalists of both religion and atheism insist they know the truth."

"It never hurts to get to know people who believe differently than you believe."

...........True enough, but both statements are out and out non sequiturs, and have nothing to do with what I'd actually said. Unless they are more of attempted misdirection, using hints and innuendo rather than clearly expressed argument.

-----------

Brian's correspondent, if he should be reading this thread, must be wondering what on earth we're on about here. Apologies for what's ended up as a thread hijack! Thus far and no more, from me.

[Uchit]

Brian you are doing humanity that is stuck in the wheel of reincarnation in the RSSB evil satanic cult for eons and who are used and abused for slavery (seva). Hopefully one day they will see your blogs on this site and begin to listen to there own intuition and gut telling them that this RSSB CULT and the leader Gurinder Singh Dhillon is a complete lie and a distraction! The wolf in sheep clothing. Hopefully this will lead to more investigation on Google where you can plainly see that GSD is lucifer in human form ~ a greedy ! Self serving man that wants total human control.

Beware also that Lucifer has agents on this very sight, they know who they are and they are doing seva to their puppet master. They say listen to the voice within ! These voices are demons and not the same as your gut instinct. Question them! Challenge them! Spensor has openly admitted he worships lucifer and that he is his true master! His advice and that of other agents comes from Lucifer. So Beware and be on your A game.

Thank you Brian!

[Di]

Correspondent and Nick NY,
Applaud 👏 your integrity and courage to step away, reflect, and grow as individuals from your experiences.
Sagely advise from Brian on how to cope with your struggles.
"Keep on keeping on!"

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR
You quoted my question to you

""Do you have any religious friends?""

I asked this because all your references to religious believers referred to authoritarian and disciplinarian parents as if that is a requirement of religious belief.

That is a false attribution to religious belief and what is known as a glittering generality.

The Jewish, Christian, New Age, Theosophy, Hindu, Muslim and RSSB, TM and Self Realization families I have known, communities, synagogues or churches I've attended do not claim their personal truth is more than belief and a personal choice, and a personally discovered truth. And as part of the ritual of adulthood, each requires the young man or woman to make their own personal decision.

Even in a pentecostal community in Wisconsin where I was very close friends, as a Satsangi, to Pentecostal Christians and their church leaders for nearly ten years, there was always complete respect, and the expectation that each person must weigh the information for themselves. Because it is a matter of Faith, not proof. It is a matter of discovering Christ within. That is entirely personal.

In fact it was the younger pentecostals always trying to engage in apologetics, not the more mature members, who understood and lived in " The peace that surpasseth understanding."

The silent ones knew, and they were not setting any expectations about belief on anyone, only on personal responsibility as members of the community to understand the Bible in detail so that they could use it to help them make their own personal discovery about prayer and to develop their own personal relationship to God.

This was not an insulated community. These folks were part of our general society, attending schools, working etc.

In contrast, the authoritarian model of the anti - theist Atheists insists that one size must fit all. It is the complete totalitarian view where free thought is frowned upon outside of their version of Iron clad universal truth, and where no variation from that is accepted. I knew Atheist parents who tormented their kids with disbelief and zero personal support for their kid's views and lifestyle choices.

I did know of some college friends whose religious parents were also very strict in the same way, but it was not and is not by any means even close to the average, in my experience.

These are character issues, not religious ones. A bad Atheist becomes Stalin, but that is not a statement about Atheism. And a bad person in a frock is not a statement about Faith.

The pentecostals I spoke of lived entirely for their children, within the protection, foundation and love they found in their faith. Their kids were preternaturally kind and gentle to each other and even new members.

My son Sam was treated much better by those kids than the kids in his school and even some of the Indian kids in the Sangat.

So, one size doesn't fit all.

And I've known Atheists who also understood their belief was based on their best judgement,, which could be flawed. And that no religion or science justified forcing innocent people to deny their beloved traditions against their will, or denegrate their beliefs. They had a very clear line between personal right to hold a different view, and behavior that harmed others. So they honored the different judgments of others. They didn't denegrate anyone, and zero ad homonym attacks. They were aware, as Richard Feynman reflected, on their own limitations as biological creatures the product of their upbringing, environment, culture and conditioning.

Brought up in a culture of science, they believed in science. That must allow for the greatest range of thought, because reality has turned out to be quite unexpectedly novel, and science requires novel thinkers.

But they still understood at the end of the day, that was their belief, in a reality that remains largely unknown.

You wrote
"..........I just love this passive aggressive stuff you keep handing out."

Ad hominem attacks ad nothing to the dialogue AR, and betray your nom de plume.

So let me ask again, sincerely and seriously, and please respond in kind

Do you have any religious friends?

[Spence Tepper]

Whenever I hear a happily married man insist there is only one absolute truth, and the marriage has sustained, I already know whose truth that is.

[Arun Marwah]

I am an EX RSSB devotee like many. I left RSSB after i learned about the involvement of financial scandal that the Guru was involved in with his family members included. I feel very happy after i left this path, though i remain a vegetarian person out of compassion for less powerful and defenceless animals that other people eat so happily and without a guilt. I have involved myself in service of stray animals around my neighbourhood. I feed them, give them medicine when needed and shift them to animal shelters whenever needed. Sewa or service to humanity including animals is the best way out. Try it.

[Arun Marwah]

Financial honesty, to me, is the most important quality in a person. I hate dishonest people who cheat others of their money. So i had no hesitation in quitting RSSB till a new and perfectly honest man is appointed to take charge of RSSB.

[Appreciative Reader]

Bloody fucking hell, Spence. I don't know why I keep coming back to these asinine discussions, and why I can't shake off this entirely fruitless, and endless, someone's-wrong-on-the-internet moment that's all these discussions seem to have devolved to.

You'd commented, addressing me, "Do you have any religous friends? (...) This is exactly the Religion doctrine. Faith and love, belief and service to God. Not facts of this world. But the spirit in the heart. This is what people of Faith teach their children. What they have found for themselves to be true. But acknowldging that they can, at best, believe, and do not yet know. Knowing is the future promise of faith."

Whereupon I responded to you in very clear and unambiguous terms, thusly, and I quote: "Sometimes that is how it is, sure. And that is how it SHOULD be, sure. But in practice, often enough what is taught by religious parents to their children is, unfortunately, superstitions masquerading as truth. (...) Do you really mean to sit there and tell me, hand to your heart, that you're not even aware of this?"

To which you make this utterly cock-eyed response: "all your references to religious believers referred to authoritarian and disciplinarian parents as if that is a requirement of religious belief"

You either were unable to parse my very simple and clear and unambiguous words. Or else you did not read them at all. Or you chose to ignore those words because they did not fit in with the strawman version of my position that you insist on attacking from atop your soapbox. What on earth is there to "appreciate", in any of this asinine dialog that we're having? How long is one to keep on extending the benefit of doubt, and keep believing that someone who does what you keep doing isn't either deluded or being deliberately disingenuous? I mean, seriously, Spence? You are fully lucid and clear-thinking in matters that don't concern your pet woo: look back at this exchange and tell me there's anything at all to "appreciate" here?

I'm going to do two things in this comment, my last in this thread (with apologies once again to Brian's correspondent, who's no doubt now given up all hope of having this thread return to his de-culting process, except maybe indirectly by looking on the horror that is religiously co-opted thinking): First, I'll spell out my position very clearly, in doing which I won't say anything new but only clearly repeat what I've already said here; and second, I'll ask you, Spence, the question I'd already asked you, in even clearer terms (not that there was any lack of clarity last time, but still).

(1) My position on this, with respect to your response to my earlier comments (and read all of this if you're going to respond, please, Spence, don't just read and quote half a sentence and vault on again onto your soapbox with another strawman): It is a fact that religious people often tend to do their damnedest best to pass on to their children their own irrational beliefs. Is that a necessary feature of religion? Obviously not. Do all religious folks do this, without exception? Obviously not. To the extent that religious folks do harbor irrational beliefs, and to the extent that they try (whether unthinkingly or deliberately) to pass such on to their hapless children, to that extent I think this kind of indoctrination and brainwashing of these vulnerable and relatively defenseless children is wrong.

(2) And my question to you, Spence (and again, please read all of the question and answer to all of what follows, don't just follow your usual practice of plucking off half a sentence out of context and strawmanning away from atop your soapbox): Do you really mean to sit there and tell me, with hand to your heart, that you've never come across religious folks who do harbor irrational theistic beliefs about the nature of reality, and who do end up teaching such to their children? It's not a question of authoritarianism at all; that, as you say, is a matter of human frailty: it is quite possible to do this entirely gently and considerately as well, by simply teaching one's kids that one's cock-eyed religious worldview is fact, as opposed to belief.

Following on the above, I have to ask back at you, Spence: Do you actually have any religious friends yourself? Friends that you've actually listened to? Friends whose views you've actually taken care to understand? Or do you simply strawman them, just like you've been strawmanning me here? Because while no doubt there will be people who realize that their beliefs are unsupported and are not fact; and further who don't seek to impose their worldview on to their children; but if you claim that all religious folks are such, then I'll clearly call out bull shit. To say that is to actually lie; or else it is to be deluded; or else it is to have interacted with a very atypical --- an astonishingly and unbelievably atypical --- cross-section of people.

I mean, just take this blog. This place where people leave comments about their worldview and their beliefs, and which provides us with demonstrable and easily accessed evidence. Regardless of whether they're pro-Gurinder or anti-Gurinder, there's heaps and heaps of folks here who literally believe, not speculatively but as fact, that there are demons, and/or spirits and souls, and/or the devil, and/r God, and/or reincarnation, and/or adepts "entering" you if you let them (for better or for worse), and/or a host of other such unsupported things. This clearly gives the lie to your claim that all religious folks necessarily, as you put it, "(acknowldge) that they can, at best, believe, and do not yet know".

And to pre-empt yet another strawman from you, this is not claim that those commenters' views are a necessary feature of religion; nor is it to claim that all religious commenters think that way; it is only to point out clear easily demonstrated evidence that there is no dearth at all of religious folks who do look on all kinds of fantastic beliefs as actual fact.

-------

What is it with you self-styled mystics, like manjit and you, who are clearly educated and well-read and clear-headed enough generally, that you're apparently reduced to either incoherence in your thinking (or else you resort to deliberate disingenuity) when it comes to your pet woo? And before you try to play the ad hom card yet again, none of what I've said here is an ad hom, at all. True, my patience with this undending claptrap is starting to run thin now. And frankly, given this stream of incoherence (and/or disingenuous discourse), I'm starting to have serious doubts about those claims of far-out spiritual experiences as well (that I had not, before this, doubted, at least not as far as manjit and you). But I'm clearly saying what I'm saying, and my arguments are clearly spelled out; and none of those resort to ad hominem attacks, at all. (Look the term "ad hominem" up if you need to. It doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.)

[um]

@ AR

>>I don't know why I keep coming back to these asinine discussions,<<

Probably because you feel, think that your words, your ways of reasoning, by themselves are so convincing, and powerfull, loaded with intrinsic meaning, that any well thinking and educated person, would or should take them to heart.

Something or somebody must be wrong .... hahahaha.

You have been the best probably most of the time and now you are faced with a man that stands his ground as an intelligent debater without getting emotionally involved in the debate.

You can not win this debate as he has something that you do not have, something that gives him the inner strenght to stand up for eternity without loosing anything and you, you get exhausted more and more and that becomes wisibile in the choice of words .. anger and frustration is coming to the surface.

But again, stick to your path, life your path as a rationalist and/or atheist, and see where it leads you .... but ...that can be done only if you refrain from discussing it with others. Keep mum and live your life .... then all will become clear.

Your path is true ...for YOU. To be successful on your path nobody needs to know where you go and how, nor do you need to know where they are going. If on this path of pilgrimage you happen to meet a person, you can freely share your ideas with one another, have a drink and walk on.

Rumi advised not to linger in the caravansaries of life.

[um]

@ Arun Marwah

No general, can enter the batalfield with out having his own soldiers and those of the enemy be killed ... jet, his entering the battlefield was not with the intention to kill...his motivation was something else.

The world of big finance is like a battle field. Anybody that thinks that big money can be handled without transgressing normal codes of behaviour, is an idealistic dreamer.

THAT was probably the reason why most mystics of the past stayed away from big money and refused to accepted that their state of poverty would end.

Arun, have some tea and ponder for a while what you would do in YOUR COUNTRY whith an inheritance of big money .... why have you become so sensitive about honesty with money?! .... because you life in a country were dishonesty with money is the rule of life. Where you hardly can buy something without it being "handled" in some way or another.

Where they free to refuse that inheritance? Theoretical maybe yes put practical certainly not. Could they handle that money in a correct way. Theoretically yes but practically not ... is that an excuse? ... no!

Should that all be matter of your concern .... no

What politicians and religious leaders do are just facts of life, there is nothing you can do about it but YOU, you can live a decent [religious] life if the circumstance allow you.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR
First, you are asking me to respond to your questions but you are deflecting from my question. Basically, you are talking over me and at me but not with me.

If you will please answer the question directly I'll then proceed to each of yours.

Please answer it and we will address the rest.

Do you have any religious friends?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi, AR
Just to save time I will address the fundamental flaw in your latest comments..These are pertain ant to this post actually, because whatever belief one ends up in, they must still function in their families and communities. Perhaps my comments can help them and you learn to find and respect the truth within others beliefs even as you cling to your own as personally superior.

In fact I suggest that as you become comfortable in your Atheism you will not find others ' beliefs so threatening. Their is room for all at the table of life. And all life, all people, in their way, as expressions of life, are sacred.

You wrote
"Do you really mean to sit there and tell me, with hand to your heart, that you've never come across religious folks who do harbor irrational theistic beliefs about the nature of reality, and who do end up teaching such to their children? It's not a question of authoritarianism at all; that, as you say, is a matter of human frailty: it is quite possible to do this entirely gently and considerately as well, by simply teaching one's kids that one's cock-eyed religious worldview is fact, as opposed to belief."

In three different replies to you, and several others I've addressed the historical research on God as a functional system of belief which was a crucial survival tool for these vulnerable cultures, and the current research on meditation, prayer and mindfulness practices demonstrating their physiological and neurological benefits today.

The symbolic representation of God in various religions which people are taught to worship and pray to becomes the focal point for internal help, protection, intervention, and sanctuary. They offer a means to unload the burdens of life, psychologically, through faith, which science has demonstrated has significant health benefits. In the case of attending church regularly, life extension.

Those systems function quite well even today on a personal level for many people, even though the supernatural legends connected to those are clearly based in myth. But the practices of prayer, the practice of continuous prayer, of maintaining attention to the presence of God reduces stress, improves cognitive functioning and provides a host of physiological and psychological survival benefits through the process of accepting those symbols as absolutely real.

These teachings are real survival tools.

You need to understand their utility to our brains and bodies, which are themselves historical constructions, to understand that the corporeal unreality of these myths is actually a non - sequitur.

You are arguing the color of the paint job and ignoring the vehicle that helps much of the world function.

What you see as irrational are practices and functional symbols and practices honed by evolution itself as functional parts of the brain and human culture.

I'm not talking about cults and comnunes. I'm discussing folks who live and work and function in our society, and who hold the Golden Rule as the central teaching of their belief system. People who function quite well, who are helpful to the world, and who were brought up by loving and broad minded parents of Faith.

I also wrote earlier something you must have missed.

You will find in the Holy Bible the book of Job and the book of Ecclesiastes. In these books you will find the most defensible arguments for Atheism, that are repeated by wise Atheists in defense of their views. And protected and published as a sacred part of God's word for thousands of years.

These arguments are not put forth by evil characters. They are made by the authors, the protagonistd, who, acknowldging the house of cards of their own religion, but understanding their own limitations, elect to cling to faith, and doing that see things otherwise invisible. Those arguments for Atheism form the most reasonable arguments being made today. Your best playbook as an Atheist was already published in the Holy Bible and is protected as sacred by every practicing priest and rabbi.

I also referred to the Jewish commentaries, the Torah, where Atheism is discussed with respect and never disproven.

Check them out. The heroes of those books put forth unassailable arguments for Atheism that to this day have no equal.

Is it just possible that your concern, that prevents you from understanding the nuggets of truth in every position, every lifestyle, could be your ignorance of how these people actually live?
Hence my question about having friends among the Faithful.

"I don't like that man. I think I'll need to get to know him better."
Abraham Lincoln

[manjit]

Arun wrote: "I have involved myself in service of stray animals around my neighbourhood. I feed them, give them medicine when needed and shift them to animal shelters whenever needed. Sewa or service to humanity including animals is the best way out. Try it."

That is beautiful. You are beautiful. This is in my personal opinion what true spirituality is. I bow to those like yourself, my gurus.

Thanks for sharing this beautiful suggestion.

[Spence Tepper]

One final point AR
In traditional Jewish homes children are not taught to blindly accept anything. They are taught from an early age to question, debate and discuss their opinions, and defend them, even challenging their parents ' positions, right at the dinner table every day.

Clearly you haven't gone to dinner in a traditional or reform home, or visited a Kabbutz, where the inmates run the Asylum.

[Spence Tepper]

In a Jewish home silence at the dinner table is forbidden.

[Spence Tepper]

In a Jewish home if you eat quietly others will stare at you and ask what's wrong. Is it the food? Try the Gefilte fish, it's fresh. Vegetarian? It's ok, our cousin does the same thing. Borscht? How was your day sweetheart?

You won't have a quiet moment.

In a Kabbutz the teenagers run it. And between free love and hard work, they spend their time laughing and getting on each other's case to be sure the work is done.

[um]

@ Spence

In a world where misery is common good, a replica of hell, there are some communities that recreate for themselves a replica of heaven.

From early youth it has been a puzzle for me how such an thing can exist. Somewhere there is something that did not had to be so, something I feel is wrong, unfortunately I have never been able to figure out what it is.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
If anyone creates an atmosphere of peace and goodwill, it has to come from within, liked all things humans create. Projections from within.

Misery may just be lack of insight, and in that environment, where the leaders have no vision, all suffer from that of poverty.

But where there is inspiration, isn't that a kind of wealth everyone who witnesses it enjoys?

[um]

@ Spence

That being true ... it doesn't explain the facts of life.

How can a person be happy and rejoice in his wealth, if others are lacking the same or were used to create that wealth.

To give you an idea of that thing I refer to and cannot figure out exactly ... watch how those protestants walk in their yearly parades in Ulster. In that manner of walking is something terrible wrong although their is nothing wrong with the parade itself as commemoration they want to celebrate.

There was also something wrong in the elite german soldiers paraded and is now copied by the chinese.

Why do some people and people want to be "good" and show that to others?

[um]

@ Spence

Let me add this to it

There is a difference in the way modern Islamic girls wear their head scarfs and demand the right to do so in Europe and the way Sikhs wear their turban.

That difference has to do with the fact that the turban of the sikhsm although worn in public is not an demonstration, is not related at all to the public, does not go with a message.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um

The wealth and happiness I speak of comes from within.

When someone displays their worldly wealth, others gain nothing.

Bit this wealth of happiness from within all share, if they choose to accept and rejoice in it.

Then the happiness of others isn't a curse, reminding us of our misfortune, but a mirror reflecting the wealth we carry with us wherever we go, within.

And we can't help sharing it. We didn't make it, we didn't create it. The car keys were already there sitting on the table all along. With a ribbon. And a message from our Father, "You'really welcome for the new car, and the house at the destination programmed into the GPS. We're waiting for you so don't be late, but drive carefully. Love.Dad.

The car keys were there all along.

[um]

@ Spence

Your words make me "sad" ... by lack of an more suitable words that I cannot find.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"Your words make me "sad" ... by lack of an more suitable words that I cannot find."

Then let that sadness be the subject of your exploration, here on the first day of August.

I do not suggest there is no sadness buried within each of us. The human condition is at base tragic. Uncovering what is in us includes that. And when it arises without effort, that's a gift.

If we never understood and accepted it, that we carry the impressions of untold, forgotten tragedies, then what will drive us to find the light within?

But being confronted by it, especially from within ourselves, is an incredible gift, if we understand it, and use it, explore it as an Anthropologist, a thing there for your study. Become the student, and withdraw from the illusion of being the object. Joy will arise naturally with understanding. And in time a greater joy beyond understanding. Love and Truth, within, really are one and the same, even when that truth is a hard one.

"The difference between the saint and the suicide is not their experience, but their understanding of that experience. "
St. Augustine

[Spence Tepper]

I'll even go further, Um, to suggest that such sadness that arises within, may be a sign of substantial progress and maturity.

The veils may be coming down, even unconsciously. That can be the achievement of a lifetime of internal work.

The pain of childbirth, we hear, can be indescribable.But the joy that follows even more so.

[um]

@ Spence

Let me not make it too personal and/or too long ... it is difficult to chose exactly how your words affect me and to what situation in the past it reminds.

Let me just take one random as an illustration:
As a student, I often was to be found in the room of one of the teachers, that became later a very well known professor, together with a couple of other students. Like the teacher, most of them were brilliant and gifted debaters and that is what happened there, in a playful and pleasant atmosphere.

The words that came from their mouths were like sparkling flows of water, clear as glass. Not being that good in debate I often just listened to them and trying to understand what the discussion was all about ... mostly in vain.

That by itself was not "the" problem, as I liked them and loved to be around enjoying the lively atmosphere but now and then i had the feeling, listening, to them, that what they said, was "wrong" if not to say "terrible wrong".; not knowing exactly what it was that made me feel that way.

Was there something wrong in the internal logic of what they said, was it in the information that they wanted to convey or was it something deep inside them, something psychological?

I never managed to put the finger behind it.

Your words have the same effect.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
We are all attempting in words to speak to something that has no words. It will always be imperfect.

When I hear inspiring words that resonate with me, my first reaction is "That is truth!"

But I've been wrong about that. Those words might have had some truth in them, but they weren't perfect. I was drawn to them because they were consistent with my thinking.

In meditation I often would bring such things, along with my difficulties, To Master. That is what he is there for.

And the answer is always the same. It has purpose.

So when I heard criticism, He would say, it has purpose.

And when I heard things I didn't agree with, then most of all my inner Master said listen. Listen again. This is for you.

So then my worst critics became my best teachers.

Not to say they are wrong or right, but that some truth planted by the Supreme Lord is there for me to discover. And undoubtedly it is extremely painful.

Because whatever distance I run to, in denial or disagreement, I end up having to retrace those steps.

ARs words are a great example. I think he's dead wrong.

My Master within keeps telling me he's absolutely right.

This is my daily life. To have perfection within oneself, available every day in meditation. But to be imperfect. It's not a good fit.

It's a perfect fit.

So tomorrow when I'm calmer, I'll try to integrate everything, and my Master is telling me

Progress is not comfortable. But it is filled with love.

AR is a perfect example. He is doing everything within his power to lift an ignorant brother into understanding, however painful a task that is.

And I am fighting tooth and nail. And Master tells me AR is right.

So this is what I meant that the way is like this.

The rosy way is the thorny way.

And the thorny way is the rosy way.

And progress, for me, always takes the form of having to shed my ego and persona every day. And it's not natural or comfortable some times.

I don't judge other's error by my discomfort at their words.

I judge my own error by my discomfort at their words.

That is what Master has taught me.

In short, whatever we are going through is ours alone to own.

But owning it right away is the fastest way into His lap

[Dungeness]

@ Spence: "In meditation I often would bring such things, along with my difficulties, To Master. That is what he is there for."

Beautifully said. Those secrets I try to hide from myself now have an
audience to share them with.

[um]

@ Spence

>> In short, whatever we are going through is ours alone to own.<<

This much I can understand.

[Zero Chance]

“Thus there’s a chance RSSB is correct in how it views reality,”

Nope. Nada. No way. RSSB is (if you believed in gods and fairies and stuff) basically Satanic. Zero truth in their teachings. The only thing anyone who leaves RSSB should be worried about is the possibility of being sucked back in. You’ve just left a drug cartel. Think of it that way.

RSSB is the path of the ego.

Find a higher power that teaches love and mercy. Believe in love and the source of love. There is no fear in love and “God” does not punish or judge or use fear. God doesn’t control us. It’s just a source of Love. It doesn’t control but love is ALWAYS more powerful than fear. If you’re involved in a philosophy that induces fear, then rest assured you’re involved with a very weak leader. Truly weak and pitiful in the face of true love.

[um]

@ Zero Chance

Induce???
Who induces what?

Did Christ induce fear?
Or was it induced by the theologians that stole his teachings?
Or are it the believers, due to their ignorance
Or those that are against it who use it as a prove, as an argument to make people go?

If a parent, or an teacher tells a child that is learning the skill of climbing a wall, that certain actions can lead to his downfall, is he "inducing fear" or is he lovingly teaching his child or pupil??

[Non Credo]

Gurinder's' most recent Q & A video is (no hyperbole) the most disturbing RS video I've ever seen.

At one point, a Satsangi tells Gurinder that he's been meditating for 40 years and has yet to have a significant spiritual experience. The man wanted to know what his spiritual fate would be if he died without consciously visiting the higher planes.

I'd like to be charitable and fair to Gurinder, but I found his answer chilling. He basically tells the guy "tough shit, you either have the experience or you've failed, and you've failed because no matter what you or anyone says about faithfully meditating, you're a lazy liar who really doesn't have any love in his heart."

It wasn't just Gurinder's words, it was also the way he said these things. And this wasn't an isolated incident, as the guru went on to accuse other satsangis of just not really trying hard enough.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Non Credo
Baba Ji can be very tough on people. But he encourages people to learn from their mistakes and make a change.

Everyone who has come to admit their sins he didn't even want to let them speak. He tells than not to shame themselves publicly, but to learn, forgive themselves and leave the past entirely. He says it is our behavior that matters most.

He is focused on Shabd practice and its liberating effects. And Shabd is in everyone. Emancipation is in everyone. Even practice isn't in your hands. But Shabd pulls us in on its own time. Our effort reflects our progress not our results. Because the very distraction you become aware of when trying to mediate is information for you to use.

We have a huge challenge with our minds that wander out, easily distracted, and a practice that requires the opposite, concentration. But in the effort we get better. Effort and some analysis, some effort to refine our process. And we discover our deepest desire is to withdraw.

I've begun to see Baba Ji differently. I brought the issue to my own Master, Maharaj, in meditation and He told me, "Be Baba Ji tough."

Be that tough mentally. Be that determined, mentally. Then you can shower kindness on anyone.

But first, be Baba Ji tough. Be Gurinder tough in your resolve to move forward.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Zero Chance
You wrote
"God doesn’t control us. It’s just a source of Love."

"We think we move, but we are being moved."
Nietsche

The proof that we are mentally enslaved by this world is the difficulty to withdraw from it and focus on something else.

So you are right, God doesn't control us. But neither do we.

Rather, I think God wants to help us liberate ourselves, by providing some tools. Then it is for us to use those tools, to be a little tough on ourselves, to push ourselves a little outside our comfort zone every day, get to the liberation gym within ourselves, and do the work. If we are reluctant his words may be harsh. But in every harsh word is the expectation and the confidence that we can do it, without question. Therefore we should.

If, to grow love in our heart, and to have the strength to stand strong and be a sanctuary of strength for others, when others are falling to corruption around us, then let us be tough. Mentally tough. And not just mentally tough, Gurinder tough.

[Sonia]

@Non Credo

I think Gurinder is going through a tough time. Most Masters and Gurus do when they are in the latter stages of their careers and see that their teachings really haven’t changed anything. Charan went through the same thing at the end.

The focus on something beyond this world is correct. However, getting there is nearly impossible if you are taught that sins are real and that you have to come back to this world until all of them are accounted for. The truth is, none of us have the right to hold another prisoner. And that’s exactly what we do—we take prisoners when we believe that someone has power over us. We start to fear them and hate them and they in turn start to dislike us as well.

Forgiveness is just a concept. In a way it isn’t real either because technically we’re all innocent. Everyone. There isn’t really a devil other than the devil inside that we either feed or starve. It’s our choice. Too often we choose wrong.

Forgiveness is just an idea created for the mind in order to help bridge the gap between two worlds—that of the false belief that karma or sins can actually keep us coming back to this world. The other world is the realization that you are not a prisoner and you have no right to hold anyone hostage.

There are laws governing this world and the real world and those laws hold true. But the laws of this world are very different from those of the real world. The laws of the real world do a much better job of keeping people from hurting each other.

So, if Gurinder is unhappy just blame me. And people like me. I don’t agree with his teachings about judgement and the idea that God demands we pay off all our karmas (because that is literally impossible) but it has been made clear to me that I have no right to hold anyone a prisoner.

I guess the bottom line is, if you don’t like just log off (easier said than done, I know…)

[Sonia]

Of course, the law remains—if you take prisoners, then you will come back to this world because you canny truly believe yourself to be free if you aren’t wiling to free another. This is something I struggle to remember at times. Judgement is always fear based projection. And I’m not talking about the kind of judgement where you make the choice to do the right thing or the wrong thing. I’m talking about judgement in the form of condemnation.

Take no prisoners. That’s my new motto, but in the kinder sense.

This life will end soon, so why waste it being fearful. Our minds try to convince us that fear will protect us when in fact it does the exact opposite.

It’s funny, you think you’re free of something only to learn a bigger lesson. And then, finally you are free.

It’s mind blowingly phenomenal how patient God is with us in learning these lessons. He never stops trying for a single instance to teach us these things but he doesn’t torture us to learn them. If he didn’t have patience, love would not exist at all.

[umami]

Before pulling a tooth, a dentist rocks it back and forth. Like a stake hammered into the ground. Don't be afraid, it makes it come loose.

[Spence Tepper]

Real fear, actual dread, happens when we realize we have hurt someone else. It's not a bad thing, if it emerges from within our heart and conscience. And leads to reform, personal progress. Awareness, self - awareness can do that.

[Appreciative Reader]

"ARs words are a great example. I think he's dead wrong.

My Master within keeps telling me he's absolutely right.

This is my daily life. To have perfection within oneself, available every day in meditation. But to be imperfect. It's not a good fit.

It's a perfect fit.

So tomorrow when I'm calmer, I'll try to integrate everything, and my Master is telling me

Progress is not comfortable. But it is filled with love.

AR is a perfect example. He is doing everything within his power to lift an ignorant brother into understanding, however painful a task that is.

And I am fighting tooth and nail. And Master tells me AR is right."

----------

Dear Spence,

That's very handsomely put. Couldn't have asked for a more gracious acknowledgement than that.

*figuratively bows back, in full earnest, in reciprocal acknowledgement*

----------

I hope you won't take this question from me as ungraceful reciprocation of your very graceful overture, but I'm kind of unclear about one essential part of what you've said here, and I'm afraid this lack of clarity makes me ...well, uncomfortable.

In the last few days, we've disagreed about more than one subject. Which part, specifically, do you say your Master tells you I'm right about, but you "fight tooth and nail" to keep from acknowledging?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AR
You asked:
"n the last few days, we've disagreed about more than one subject. Which part, specifically, do you say your Master tells you I'm right about, but you "fight tooth and nail" to keep from acknowledging?"

Your position that you are in fact speaking from the Scientific Worldview. You are.

The ancient myths dispelled by basic science are false, as depictions of physical reality, which they were taken for in those times. It's not just a matter of rationality. Science has disproven them.

I was sort of being an asshole on that matter.

My points about looking the cultural reality of these myths may have limited relevance to the study of myths, but zero relevance to objective physical reality, which was what you were speaking about.

:)

[Appreciative Reader]

Thanks for the clear acknowledgement, Spence. Absolutely, very graceful of you.

And my sincere apologies for having lost patience towards the end of that protracted discussion. That latter speaks only to my own lack of self-control, and to nothing else.

[Non Credo]

@ Sonia: "I think Gurinder is going through a tough time. Most Masters and Gurus do when they are in the latter stages of their careers and see that their teachings really haven’t changed anything. Charan went through the same thing at the end."

I've reconsidered what I wrote about Gurinder.

For one thing, his flat admonition to the 40 year meditator is actually kosher within RS dogma. After all, this is gnostic path and so it follows that if a meditator doesn't achieve conscious results in meditation, then his efforts were fruitless. There is some qualification to this as Charan many times said that "all our efforts in meditation count in our favor," though he also at times stressed that we can't expect much if we're not achieving subtle experiences on the RS path. This is actually a bit striking to me as I've been in RS groups for over 40 years and realize I've assumed that ultimate success in meditation isn't that important, and the "inner master" will somehow facilitate the inner journey after the initiate dies. Having watched many RS videos I think it's clear that a whole, whole bunch of Indian satsangis shared that assumption. But is it actually a part of RS teachings? If so, I don't know where to find it in the words of any of the past RS gurus.

I don't agree with you that Gurinder is frustrated, or at least I don't see any evidence of that in his demeanor in any of his videos. In fact I have to give Gurinder credit for consistent equanimity, even if he often refuses to cut any of his questioners any slack in a borderline rude way.

[Spence Tepper]

"This is actually a bit striking to me as I've been in RS groups for over 40 years and realize I've assumed that ultimate success in meditation isn't that important, and the "inner master" will somehow facilitate the inner journey after the initiate dies."

This is absolutely the truth, as far as my own experience.

The outer Master is all bark and no bite.

On the inside, he is doing all the work. He is doing the Simran!

All efforts, especially the ones that appear to have no results have all the results. Even when you are praying the wrong way to the wrong things. We are children in the back seat with a toy steering wheel. We are kept veiled from what's happening. Some never see the first or second regions. Their first glimpse is the third region? Why? Because these regions are an incredible escape from the world, and he needs work, work, work from us to burn through with the highest ethics our responsibilities.

Once you get a glimpse, the walls come down. No more candy for you. Work must be done. The master purposefully throws us out to finish our accounts.

This is serious business and he hardly has time to consider complaints of loneliness and difficulty when he is actually doing all the work at our side always, 23x7.

Our complaints seem significant to us, in our small thinking. They are insignificant. We won't be complaining in a little while. But he pushes is to make use of this time here to burn through the past, and pay of debts.

That's what meditation is for, right now. All utility. The only place for us to turn.
Be satisfied to find peace and happiness in the darkness, even as your simran utterly fails. Because he is doing all the work.

So instead, be tough, be mentally tough as steel. Be Gurinder tough.

[Spence Tepper]

... Oops.. At our side always 24 x7.

[Arun Marwah]

@Manjit
Thanks very much for your very encouraging and soothing words. love for Nature, Humanity & All other species on earth is my motto in life. Love infact is God. God is Love. Heaven is where Love is. Violence of any kind, verbal or physical is hell. Keep Loving. Keep serving.

[Spence Tepper]

No one knows why God doesn't just make us decent in an instant. Why he/she /they don't just wave their hands and we automatically have the characteristics of a peaceful, focused, mature and wise, discriminating and insightful view, and the self-discipline to live by what we believe is right.

But for whatever reason all we have is what we are, I'll - fitted to our own desires and to reform, in a world that asks more than we are capable of....

And teachers who can help us cope...
And awaken the source of strength within us.

And so the process, like the growth of a tree, is slow at best. And where winter surrounds us, we go dormant for a time, and lose much that we were happy with in earlier times.

And in Spring, the real Spring of our own awakening, we grow again. But we know also that winter is also there again. Our path is not straight.

It is natural.